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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 3 E: 3 The Invisible Struggles: Being Irrelevant
Facing the harsh reality of feeling invisible in the healthcare system can be overwhelming, especially when battling chronic conditions. Donna returns to share her courageous journey through the maze of medical gaslighting, where her invisible illnesses were often dismissed. We unravel the staggering fact that obtaining a proper diagnosis for issues like autoimmune diseases can take nearly a decade. Learn how to empower yourself with essential strategies for advocating in medical settings, from tracking symptoms in a notepad to bringing a trusted ally to appointments. We also challenge the irony of doctors relying on Google and stress the power of self-advocacy in demanding more than just textbook answers.
The challenge of communication within the healthcare system isn’t just a personal struggle; it's a systemic issue affecting countless individuals. We reflect on the pressures medical professionals face to prioritize the number of patients over the quality of care, leading to ethical dilemmas and a sense of irrelevance among older patients. From navigating a cancer diagnosis during a pandemic to the hurdles posed by staff shortages, our conversation underscores the urgency of being a proactive health advocate. Tune in for heartfelt stories and practical tips, like refusing unnecessary procedures, to help you navigate these choppy waters with confidence.
Feelings of irrelevance extend far beyond the doctor's office. We explore how societal pressures can strain personal relationships, with unbalanced friendships and forgotten birthdays serving as poignant reminders. By sharing personal anecdotes, we emphasize the importance of genuine connections, empathy, and meaningful interaction in an age dominated by superficial social media exchanges. Through stories of disappointment and the power of kindness, we invite you to reflect on how small gestures can bridge the gap of irrelevance, fostering deeper connections in both our personal and communal lives.
Loneliness in the United States: A 2018 National Panel Survey of Demographic, Structural, Cognitive, and Behavioral Characteristics - Liana DesHarnais Bruce, Joshua S. Wu, Stuart L. Lustig, Daniel W. Russell, Douglas A. Nemecek, 2019
America has a loneliness epidemic. Here are 6 steps to address it : NPR
Marie Kondo Your Life: How To End Toxic Friendships, Bad Habits
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. Today I have a returning co-host, my friend Donna. She was episodes. No, I forgot the episode it was, but it was season two. You did Life as an Empath, yes, and it was just such a great episode. Thank you so much for doing that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I enjoyed it anytime.
Speaker 2:So you are back today and we are doing a topic that we both have talked about independently, and that is the fear of being irrelevant, and I think what's going to be great about this episode is that you and I are actually going to be kind of live, processing it and like what it's like for us and this may resonate with a lot of people out there who are experiencing the same thing.
Speaker 2:And, based on some research that preliminary research I did, there are quite a few studies that one was even out before COVID. It came out in 2018. Sage has an article on it that talks about how I think it was 43% of people over the age of 45 feel lonely, and that was pre-COVID and after COVID, I think the numbers are even higher. There was a study that NPR did that talked about how, even though we have more options of connection, people are feeling more isolated than ever, and I do think this ties nicely into the fear of being irrelevant, which is, ironically, the topic we're doing right before Thanksgiving, which is all about giving thanks and being thankful and grateful for everything.
Speaker 1:And everything has a negative and positive. If you think of being irrelevant, we look at that as a negative, but sometimes we can have the opportunity to change that into a positive Sure, and maybe that's a way to look at what we're feeling right now.
Speaker 2:So, donna, once you had talked about when we were throwing around ideas about the feeling of being irrelevant in the medical community, and I think that is such a huge thing. I've experienced it, not nearly as much as you have. I've experienced it with that terrible doctor I did an episode on in season one. Can you talk a little bit about that, what that's been like?
Speaker 1:Sure, back in 2017, I got very sick and since then I've been battling many, many different chronic health issues, pain issues, and you go to the doctor and the first thing they do is, like a CBC, they check the basic line things and if you look okay, well, there's nothing wrong, so they send you on your way.
Speaker 1:But it really impacts you emotionally, physically, psychologically. It's difficult enough to go and put yourself out there to talk to a doctor and say, okay, I've got this going on. But when you feel like you're medically gaslighted into feeling well, there's nothing wrong, we've done this test, we've done that test. I don't know what else you want me to do. I want you to find out what's wrong with me, because some people are not textbook and my doctor had told me you're not textbook and so when you have invisible illnesses, invisible illnesses, conditions like autoimmune disease, mental health issues, chronic health issues we're talking lupus, ms there's thousands of different autoimmune diseases that somebody could look at you and not think that you're sick because you look quote unquote normal. It takes a lot of work, mentally and physically to look and act normal and it's not always easy and it's tiring and it's exhausting.
Speaker 2:And that brings up the whole conversation of what is actually normal, which is. You know, normal is an illusion in general.
Speaker 1:It is. It's a setting on a washing machine. That's what normal is.
Speaker 2:Which, by the way, never works anyway.
Speaker 1:Right, I am far from normal and I embrace that, but you can end up getting misdiagnosis. I read an article that said that most people will be misdiagnosed and it takes eight to ten years to get an actual diagnosis of what is wrong with them eight to ten years yeah, and I'm on my eighth year.
Speaker 1:That's so disturbing, frustrating. It's frustrating. I know people who were diagnosed with fibromyalgia originally and come to fanna it was ms and people I want you to understand. You know your own body. You have to just keep advocating for yourself because if you don't, you're just a number.
Speaker 1:When you go to the doctor's office, they're so quick to move you on because they have to see so many patients, and I get that, but they over rely on diagnostic testing instead of just listening to the patient. Like I said before, listen in silent, have the same letters. You know. Just listen to the patient. Like I said before, listen and silent, have the same letters. You know, just listen to your patient. And you know, and it has an impact on the patient because you feel dismissed and then you can. It can lead to avoidance of medical care and it affects your mental health anxiety, trauma, depression and it can. It can even say you know, I don't want to go back to the doctors anymore, when you actually do have something. Really, really it's awful, that needs to be addressed and I found that.
Speaker 1:What helped me when I went to the doctors? Before I went, I have an iPhone and there's a notepad in there and I would write down all my questions, questions, any symptoms. So when I got there I didn't waste time thinking what did I need to ask him, and he was quite happy that I did that, because he said let me see your list. Let's go off of them one at a time, because sometimes the time is so managed that they don't have a lot of time just to talk in conversation about what you have going on. But if you have a list, it helps keep you focused and it helps them stay focused. The funniest thing I found was when the doctor just uses Google to find out what's wrong with you. You know it's just, and he says I'm using Google to see you know what could come up. It's a little scary.
Speaker 2:That's very scary. Did you think about just autoimmune disorders in general? I mean, how long was it before fibromyalgia was actually even considered a thing, where previously that they were just telling people it was all in their head? It is, yeah, same thing with depression.
Speaker 2:I mean, at one point in time they thought depression was demonic possession or you know there was all these like reasons why, exactly you know, I think what you would talk about. Writing notes is really great, because it certainly helps keep us focused. I think the the other problem with that there was it takes the onus off the medical professional as well to to do their job, and it does.
Speaker 2:And I get what you're saying about as a somebody who works in the medical field myself. I mean, it is about scheduling and I've worked in settings where it's about census, right. It's not about quality of care, it's about, like, how many people can you get exactly an hour? And you know, as practitioners or people who are in the field, if you're doing that, you're part of the system. That's broken.
Speaker 2:And we all have to accept accountability for that. One of the reasons why I left an agency was because they were doing that and I couldn't it. Just it didn't fit with my moral compass Like I can't do that.
Speaker 1:No, I agree. And you think of an elderly patient, for example. They grew up in a culture and an era where what the doctor says was what the doctor says. He's right and I have. No, I have no reason to distrust them. I should not even ask questions. I should just tell them. If they tell me I need this pill, I'm going to take it.
Speaker 1:Where the generation that we're in now, people in their maybe 40s, 50s, 60s are realizing you can ask questions. You can tell the doctor no, this is not right, I don't want to do this, and you have to just advocate for yourself. The older generation, they'll look at it. Well, you know, you're just aging and I'm finding this out now. When I turned 60 last year, I fell into that category. I noticed that I started getting questionnaires before my visit of do you fall? Do you feel safe? Is somebody hurting you? Do you need help? Do you feel saved? Is somebody hurting you? Do you need help? It was all these questions related to balance and all of that, and I understand they're being proactive, but it was just like when you hit that 60 mark, you're in a different category.
Speaker 2:Which, by the way, also goes to the topic of being irrelevant too. Exactly, there are certain particularly for women right, there's a certain age where women hit and then society sees them as being irrelevant. Usually it's after the childbearing age.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Childbearing age, I should say. And with gay men it's the same thing. There's this kind of joke like once you hit 30, you're dead in the gay community, right, like you're completely irrelevant ever again. It's true, I'm starting to see more and more of that in different aspects of our society, where it just seems like human relationships are just becoming a throwaway. There's a lack of regard for the person that's sitting in front of you and what feelings they may be experiencing.
Speaker 1:And when you get used to that feeling of irrelevance, especially when you go to the doctors, you're afraid to even bring anything up. In 2020, during the height of pandemic, I was diagnosed with cancer, with endometrial cancer. I was terrified because I knew one, were in the height of COVID and everything was basically shut down and I was scared that I would be dismissed, because that's what I was used to and fortunately, because of COVID, I was able to get one of the best oncology surgeons in Boston and it was very quick action. You know, from diagnosis to surgery was a month, that's it, whereas in today it's taken me four to six months to get an appointment with a neurologist and then when you get off the phone, you feel irrelevant. You're like don't they realize I have issues? Don't they realize that people have problems? And when I asked my doctor this, he says a lot of medical medical professionals, professionals, left the medical field during covid because it was just so overwhelming and so they don't have the staff that they need to be able to see patients timely anymore. And that's sad because that's making people feel more irrelevant and when that happens it's a snowball effect.
Speaker 1:They don't take care of their health, they just don't do anything. You know, and one of the things that you notice when you go to the doctor is the first thing. They of course you get to do your weight when you go in and I say no, not today, because I'm sad enough, I don't need to be more sad, so I'm not going to take my weight. But they always he looks at me and I'm like don't even go there, don't even go there. You know, I've gained and lost 10 pounds in the last five years, so don't even go there. But the first thing they always focus on is your weight. They think because you have weight issues, you eat all the time. Yep, you don't look at the relevance of the medication you take, the health conditions you have there are.
Speaker 1:There are definitely certain medications that there's a lot and you can gain 10 pounds in like a month, I mean I've seen, especially like there's certain mental health medications that oh yeah, antipsychotics are notorious for this.
Speaker 2:You put somebody on it. Within like three months they've gained 30 40 pounds, yeah and they don't look at that.
Speaker 1:You're a number, you're a statistic, and so I, to be your own health advocate, don't take what they say at face value. You have the opportunity to get a second opinion. Bring someone with you to an appointment because you may not always remember, my husband goes to the doctors I can't go with him anymore because of my mobility issues but when he's there that he asked the doctor can I conference in my wife and I do, and because he doesn't't remember what the doctor says or the questions to ask, so I do, and so the doctor appreciates that, because you're actually having somebody there who can ask the questions for you. But you don't want to be put in the box of being irrelevant because you're there and you don't remember what you want to say, because then they just brush you off. So use that time wisely.
Speaker 1:Yes, their time is precious and so is yours, but make the most of it so that you don't get blocked off as being irrelevant. You know you've got to keep asking the questions. If there's a patient portal and instead of going to the doctor to ask a question, send it through the patient portal. You know you want to ask something. Send it through the patient portal. You have to remain relevant in today's society, especially when so many people are struggling medically.
Speaker 2:Talk about irrelevant, right? I had actually just recently, so I've had the same dentist for I don't know 30 years. Actually, really, I like my dentist. Obviously I've been going for 30 years, right, but I had to cancel cleaning I think that was three weeks ago and left a message to reschedule. I still haven't received a phone call back.
Speaker 1:That's sad.
Speaker 2:And my doctor's office and I I like my doctor too. It took me really long to find her. I called something was wrong with their phone system, so I called for literally 14 days in a row.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:It just would ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, and then it would transfer the operator and then it would hang up and there's like no answering machine. I had to drive down there an hour away just to find out when my appointment was, because I couldn't get a hold of them.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, they would know something was wrong.
Speaker 2:So then they they said oh, we're aware of that, we're kind of working on it, call this number instead, because that number doesn't work. And then I get home and I they had called me to cancel my appointment because my doctor went on a maternity leave. And when I called the second number, they gave me the exact same thing happened. It just kept ringing, ringing, ringing, busy signal hang up, no voicemail. And I was like and of course there's no website, you can't go to the website.
Speaker 1:And contact them either.
Speaker 2:So I'm like what is going on?
Speaker 1:Right. All my doctors are in Massachusetts and they all have websites and they all have patient portals and, believe me, I utilize them because it makes it easy to communicate, because for me to sit on the phone for an hour, I don't have the energy Between taking care of my health problems and health issues, and my husband's as well. I could literally be on the phone all day long. If I can send a message to the patient portal and they get back to me when they can, I'm okay with that. A message to the patient portal and they get back to me when they can, I'm okay with that. But it's just efficiency, I think, is a problem in a lot of areas and it makes the patient feel irrelevant because they're not getting a call back, they're not getting a message back. Why don't they care? Don't they realize that so many people are hurting and it's a vicious circle? It's a vicious circle.
Speaker 2:I see it in my field too. I've heard from multiple people that I've worked with about previous therapists they've had where they felt like they were just a number to them, and I don't treat my clients that way. I mean, I'm very invested in all of my clients and the work that I do and I hope that they would all agree with that. You, you know I certainly their care is very important to me. I try to never minimize it and I'm there as much as I can to hear what they're talking about.
Speaker 1:Of course, as it should be.
Speaker 2:It takes a while to find the right therapist too.
Speaker 1:Of course, if you find the right therapist, you don't want to let them go. You want to make because you poured everything into them and I have been lucky that the therapists I've had have been very good. And I think that when you treat your body, you have to also treat your mind. The mind-body connection is real, it's powerful and you can't do one without the other. I'm a big advocate for therapy and I will wait on a wait list for a therapist if I want to see one. I changed therapist this year because she was no longer taking my insurance. But to tell you how good she was, she was willing to just have me pay what my copay would be and that would be okay, and I was like wow, that's exactly what I do too.
Speaker 2:I've had clients the same thing where they have either take, they've switched to insurance. I don't take and I'll just free service them, because one it's not often right. So it's not like I'm free servicing like every single person on my caseload because obviously I couldn't survive that way. But when you have, you know, when you have a connection with somebody, you don't just sever it because they suddenly can't pay you anymore.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that personally, in my opinion, I think that that's abandonment of care, which is in our code of ethics. You don't Exactly, I believe it's in the code of ethics of all medical professionals, but unfortunately we live in a capitalist society. Yes, we do, and it's all about like okay, you can't pay, get out. I saw this when I worked in methadone. We would have clients who would want to taper off methadone and that's a whole other topic I could spend an entire podcast on.
Speaker 2:But that was all about like profit and keeping people on it and you know, they would want to taper off of it and there'd be some reason why they weren't stable, so they weren't allowed to taper off of it. So what they would do is they would just stop paying, because they knew if they stopped paying they'd be tapered off of it in 10 days.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, that's drastic.
Speaker 2:But that's what it is. It's all about of people could connect to.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people would people that I have connected with. I know my experience with it, and it's sad because you leave the doctor's office more frustrated than when you got there, because they made you feel like crap, they minimized you, they looked at all the negative about you instead of the positive, pushing things that they know you won't do and it's just. No, that's not something that I want to do. I don't have an eating issue, I have a metabolic issue. It's just that instead of looking at the whole person, they're just quick to judge. I one time went to see a new doctor, an orthopedic doctor, never met him before he walked in the room and the first thing he says to me when he looks at me so what diabetic medication are you on? I'm not diabetic. Well, you have to be diabetic. No, I'm not diabetic.
Speaker 2:I'm not diabetic.
Speaker 1:And he's not the first one. I saw a new neurologist a couple of weeks ago and I thought that he would be able to help me because I didn't know what was going on. He made me feel so irrelevant in that room. My husband was with me. He actually put up his hand to have me stop talking and he turned to my husband and said so what's going on with her?
Speaker 2:Well, that's just also misogynistic, I mean.
Speaker 1:I did not want to give him the satisfaction of seeing me cry, because when you let someone see you crying, when they're in that power dynamic, they'll use it to their advantage. I was so mortified and my husband looked at me and he shook his head and he said well, you need to talk to her. She's the one that's got the problem. I know what's going on, but you need to speak with her. And so he went to bat for me, like he always does. But at the same time, in this day and age, when he was an older doctor, he just he put up his hand, stopped me from talking and made me feel so irrelevant and made me feel like I was wasting his time. He goes well, we can do this test and that test, and it's going to cost money, but you know everybody's going to pay for it anyway. So what's the difference? And he was just so misogynistic.
Speaker 1:I left there and I did not reschedule the appointment, I didn't follow up and I'm like you know, I can't. I cried all the way home. I held it until I got in the car and I cried all the way home because it was just another reason why I have this awful medical PTSD because of what these doctors do and will I stop seeing them? No, because I want answers, but at the same time, when they make you feel so irrelevant and so diminished and significant, it sucks yeah it really does, and you have to just find a way to get past them and not realize.
Speaker 1:You will find that doctor that is going to listen to you, that is going to look outside the box right, but you don't give up. Patients don't give up, people don't give up. Keep advocating. There's no reason that you need to feel irrelevant, especially when it comes to your medical care, your mental health care. Don't give up and just keep on going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're 100% right. That made me think of another scenario too, again related to that dentist, and I know this is going to make the dentist sound bad, but I do have to say in 30 years there's only been two things, but terrible. One of them was a couple of years ago. I had an infection, like it was an abscess, and I went there. They looked at it. They said, okay, take this antibiotic. They were going to do root canal.
Speaker 2:So I took the antibiotic and it just got worse, like the pain, and particularly when pain's involved, right, like nobody wants to hear it when you're in pain, right. Which is funny because if you go back 10 years ago, the only thing people cared about was pain, because big pharma was pushing Oxycontin and code and a Percocet like it was candy going out of style, right. So now it's like nobody, nobody can get it. So the pain was just getting worse and worse, and worse and worse. And I remember I called and the dental assistant had said well, just, you know, double up on the penicillin, because obviously it's just not working. And I said oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:So you're supposed to do that? And she's like, yeah, yeah, double up on it. So I did, cause that's what they told me to do. And it got worse and worse and worse. And then it got to the point where there was one night it was so bad, so bad. I was taking Tylenol, um ibuprofen. I had Vicodin left over for something, so I took a Vicodin and I took a shot of whiskey and I swear to God I'm not even kidding If I had a gun I would have shot myself. That's how much pain I was in that night, like it would not go away. And I remember calling and saying that and she was like, oh, just, you know, alternate ibuprofen with Tylenol, because you know that's, that's just as good as an opiate. I'm like, clearly you've never been in dental pain it so the interesting thing was.
Speaker 2:So then I got a referral to a parent dentist and I went there. She took one look in my mouth and she goes okay, number one, you have thrush because of all the antibiotics that you were taking. And she said and it's clearly not working. And she's like this is so infected that you're lucky it's not septic. So then they put me on the correct antibiotic and then, of course, within like a day, I was fine right, cause I was on the correct antibiotic. And then, of course, within like a day, I was fine right, because I was on the correct antibiotic. But that whole thing happened because I was just being dismissed. And the other thing that happened was I remember it was really late in the morning I should say it was really early in the morning, it was like one or two o'clock in the morning and there was a moment where I went from being in tons of pain to no pain and it was the first time I was in no pain in days and I thought what is going on? And then also my face started going numb.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:So now I think I'm having a stroke. So I called 911 and I explained it to them on the phone. I said listen, I don't know what's going on. I you know I was in all this pain. Now I'm not in pain, my face is numb. I'm concerned. I'm having told you. And they said so you're just looking for pain meds. And I looked at her and I said what part of the reason why I'm calling you is because I'm not in pain. Did you not hear? Like I'm not in pain, that's the problem. And my face is numb. And she was just like well, what do you want us to do about it? She was like there's no dental clinic in the state of rhode island. She's like we can take you to fatima, but they're just going to charge you a lot of money and probably send you home. And I'm like great thanks for wasting my time, peace out.
Speaker 1:But you know, talk about just being like irrelevant we have run into that with emts as well, yep it's just going to the hospital it's just, it's terrible it is a couple of weeks ago when I had we were talking about off the recording I had a kidney stone attack and I ended up at a hospital in Massachusetts and if anyone has ever had a kidney stone it is one of the worst pains of your life. And when I got there, finally they got me into a room and I had told them that I had taken something for pain before I had left, but it didn't even work. And so, through the process, like an hour or two later, they said do you want something for pain? I said I do, but I can't take fentanyl, I can't take morphine, but dilaudid is okay, but I don't need much of it for it to work. Very low dose. Okay, we'll get that order in.
Speaker 1:They asked me eight times coming, eight separate times, eight different people would you like something for pain? I said yes, every time my husband's sitting on the side of me. I was there for six hours. I never received anything for pain. So talk about feeling irrelevant. I was just at that point, I just wanted to go home. I was just at that point, I just wanted to go home. And the next day I read the report of the ER report. On it. It says we administered 0.5 milligrams of Dilaudid to a patient and she felt better. I was like, excuse me.
Speaker 2:But they actually never gave you any.
Speaker 1:Never gave it to me. I asked my husband, I said did I receive the medication? And I don't remember. He said nope, they put an IV line in and that's all they did. They didn't put a bag of nothing. And so I called the hospital and I said you know, this is wrong. This is a falsifying medical record. Well, I don't see it on here. Well, I'm looking at it. Are you sure it's your record? Yeah, so again being made to feel irrelevant because they weren't believing me. And I was just mortified and I brought it up to my doctor and he said wow, that's all he could say was wow, because I pointed it out to him. He goes. That's not the first time I've seen that. Sadly, I'm like it's not that I was seeking drugs, but I was having a kidney stone attack. It's painful.
Speaker 2:Donna, I have to ask was it landmark?
Speaker 1:No, no, I probably should have gone there because all of my kidney issues are at Milford Hospital, so because I have a complicated history with kidney problems, my husband drove me there, but halfway there up to Menden I couldn't, I was going to pass out. We pulled into the police station and I said you have to get them to call the rescue because I can't, I couldn't, I was going to pass out. We pulled into the police station and I said you have to get them to call the rescue because I can't, I can't, I'm going to pass out. So they called the rescue. They were very nice, got me to the hospital but there was no sense of urgency.
Speaker 1:When I got there, I am like writhing in pain and they put me in a stretcher in front of the nurse's station and then asked me all the admission questions. I'm like I just want this thing Help me. You know I'm in a lot of pain and I didn't want to be mean, I wasn't rude, I stayed calm, I cried quietly but I was in so much pain and they just went on their merry time and it wasn't busy, they just did their own thing and I was just like wow, feeling insignificant, feeling like I didn't matter, feeling irrelevant, and it made me so angry that I just I just wanted to get out of there. Six hours later I was able and I passed the stone. I was there, but six hours later, with no pain meds, of just feeling irrelevant, and I said, you know what? I should have gone to the local hospital. I probably would have been better off.
Speaker 2:So, uh, note to self, don't go up to milford anymore, I don't have to so for those of you that are not local, um, the reason why I asked about landmark is because it's close to where donna lives and landmark has a terrible reputation. They almost, they almost have like a um, I don't even know it's they're almost famous for having a terrible reputation, right, and that hasn't changed over like decades.
Speaker 1:So, no, no, that's interesting and I would go there in a pinch. And they did save my husband's life, so I have to give him credit for that twice but, at the same time.
Speaker 2:It's just well, you know what they say a broken clock is always right twice a day.
Speaker 1:That's true and again, even there I've had experiences and I'm like what is wrong with people? You know, people matter, you know, and it's like that's. If they're busy, I get it, I understand, but when it's not busy, the waiting room is empty and you have empty rooms, obviously it's not a stressful situation. Just give me something for pain. I don't care if it's Tylenol give me something.
Speaker 2:Well, to switch gears a little bit, because again, it's still about it being irrelevant. And I think when it comes to being irrelevant in the medical community, like I said, we're all. I think everybody can relate to it and even though it's really frustrating, there's not necessarily an emotional attachment to it. But when we talk about being irrelevant in personal relationships and irrelevant to those around us, that's where it becomes, I think, a harder conversation.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:So, for example, I you know I kind of joke about this, but I actually think there's a reality to this. I often, living alone in the middle of nowhere, I often say to myself and I've said this to other people I think if I took a week at a work, at a week, oh my God, I can't talk. If I took a week out of work and just told you know, all my clients, right, I'm going away for a vacation or whatever, and then I died the next day, I don't think anybody would even know I was dead for probably two weeks, because that's how infrequently my friends and family call me and it just, you know, it's really like when you think about that that's, it's very like strong feeling of irrelevance, like it don't matter that much, they can't even jack on me. And I do truly believe that that would happen if I died.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get it. I get it, it's, it's. I think it's because sometimes I'm not to give excuses to people, but we get so busy making a living that we forget to make a life and we forget about the people that are important in our lives. And whether you feel it through friends, family relationships, or you just got that sinking feeling that you just don't matter, that, like you said, you could die, nobody would know.
Speaker 2:So I think the only thing I'm gonna say about that is I think the whole being busy thing is is BS, and I'm going to give you a reason why I think. Well, first of all, I think we make. We make time for what's important to us.
Speaker 2:We do One of my friends recently said to me, in August, that I had forgotten his birthday over the past two years. The reason why I forget his birthday is because it's very close to mine, and last year was my 50th birthday. So I was really, you know, planning my own birthday, I might add, for obvious reasons and so I was really kind of consumed with that. And when he told me that I was horrified, I'm like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Like I didn't realize I did that. So I told my Alexa Alexa, remind me X date that it's his birthday, so that that'll never happen again. That took all of 10 seconds to do. That's not. Do you know what I mean? And then I compare that to my best friend, who I've been friends with for 30 years and have started to become more and more aware that it's just a very one-sided relationship, which I'm seeing more and more of just in general.
Speaker 2:And I had asked her to download the podcast a long time ago, obviously to get like more, more views and all that stuff. And she did when I asked her to and then didn't again. And then when I asked her again she was like you know, I'm just so busy. And she's like, can you just, can you just remind me to do it? And I'm like, no, I don't, should not have to remind you, right, to do something for me. You don't have to remind me to do things for you and I. I think it's such a bs response because if it's important, you'll do it, and I just think there's this. There is this um again, this lack of human regard I was just talking to this morning about.
Speaker 2:Usually I do a friendsgiving every every um year the day after thanksgiving. It's not always the same people. I kind of alternate who I'm bringing or who's invited. There are some people who go every year and this year when I tell you nobody would give me a definitive response. And you've made dinners before, I mean especially Thanksgiving dinner. It's a unique days to like, plan things in advance and just no matter how many times I ask I don't know, I don't know, let me. Let me get back to you. I'm kind of busy and it's like just say you don't want to go Right, like stop wasting my frickin time and stop being like so self-centered. And I even caught people in lies. I had one person say to me that she, you know she couldn't take the day out of work because she desperately needed the money. And then a week, zembroff and I was like just say you don't want to go, like why do you think people do that?
Speaker 1:for why do you think they have to just?
Speaker 2:skirt around the issue instead of just giving a definitive answer. I because I really I'd like to make excuses for them. I really would. But if I examine my own behavior, if there's something that I'm doing that with, it's because I don't care.
Speaker 2:And instead of just instead of just owning it and saying like you know what I don't care, and instead of just instead of just owning it and saying like you know what I don't care, like or that's not something I want to do, people just kind of make excuses, but when I catch you in a lie, I have no like forget it, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I'm just I'm seeing that happen more and more and more, with people where they're just lying, and that is I mean. I'm at the point where I'm just questioning, literally like all of my friends, like every single one of them.
Speaker 1:I'm like you have to do that sometimes and you know, now and then I'll clean up my friends list. I don't go out, I'm not a social person, but on social media I do have friends that I, you know, communicate with, but there are some that you never hear from. So, you know, once a year I go and clean my friends list. I'm like, well, if you see this, you're still my friend, thank you, it's just. I am not one, I'm a homebody by nature. But at the same time you have to keep those connections going, whether you're doing it or someone else.
Speaker 1:And I find the hardest connections, believe it or not, is with family, because I agree with that, when you're raised a certain way and you, when my kids were younger, they went to their grandmothers, their grandparents every weekend my mom's, my mom's house and my in-laws house we made sure they saw the grandkids. And now everybody's just so busy that we don't see the grandkids, we don't see anybody and you feel irrelevant. Because it's like we want to have a relationship with our grandchildren but if we don't see them and we can't drive out to where they live, because it's far for my husband to drive and with our health conditions, so it makes it challenging. So you do feel irrelevant and you feel really bad. But sometimes you have to just say I'm here, I'm not going anywhere, you invite and you invite and you invite and keep the channels open and hope that eventually you know somebody will reach out and say, hey, we're going to come over and visit.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, I think you get to a point where you have to stop beating yourself up and say, if they don't want to be part of my life or be in my life, I can't beat myself up for that. That's on them. I can't beat myself up for that. That's on them. Right, you know they have to own that. And I can't make someone come to see me, can't make someone come to a dinner party or to an event if they don't want to. You know, and the old me would just be taking that. So personal, sure, but you have to just say you know what that's on them.
Speaker 2:And if you don't want to be here, then let's so be it I think that the difficulty is and this is something that you can relate to so in buddhist thought, the expectations is where suffering comes from. Right, if you have and connections, basically right. That's where all suffering comes from. So if you can detach and just look at things objectively and not have an expectation either way or just come from a really neutral place, you won't suffer. But the problem is, you're an empath and I am an empath, and in order to be empathic you have to have connections, so you can't sever those. It just it fundamentally wouldn't work. I wouldn't be good at what I did if I was just cutting out relationships left and right and like saying I'm going to look at things through a completely detached lens.
Speaker 1:Right, I've this this. Beginning this year I was so very frustrated with that situation of people not wanting to be in our lives, or because it was so busy or they were just overscheduled or whatever it was. And I had I seen this term. It was called detached with love and it resonated with me because it's not that you're cutting them out of your life, but you have to stop being responsible for their behavior.
Speaker 1:So what detached with love means? Separating yourself emotionally from someone else's problems or behaviors in a compassionate way, without anger, without judgment or trying to control their actions. And when you can do that, I think you can get to a level place for yourself of just being okay with what it is. You know that, saying it is what it is, you know it's a cliche, but when you can say you know what, you don't want to be a part of this or you don't want to come to my friendsgiving, I'm going to detach with love Because this is not about me, this is about you, and I think when you can look at it that way, it gives it a little bit more perspective and put things not in a neat little box, but you're still part of their lives, but you're not responsible for the choices that they make.
Speaker 2:In theory that makes sense and I would probably tell the exact same thing to a client. So I mean, in theory that makes sense and I would probably tell the exact same thing to a client. So I mean, in theory it really does make sense. The other issue is that there's a difference between somebody just being honest and saying like hey, like I don't want to do that or I'm busy, then lying and you know doing things that are hurtful, whether it's intentional or not, and certainly you can detach with love, like you said. Then the question is, if I have to detach because that person isn't meeting their fundamental role as, like somebody who's supposed to be a friend, why am I bothering in the first place?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, like what's the point? And I think we all get trapped in this cycle of like no-transcript can get through that and you know, again, the problem is, I think it's our society. Our society is really creating this, this level of detachment.
Speaker 1:When you think about it. Look at social media. We live in a culture that thrives on visibility, whether it's likes on a post or accolades at work. It's easy to tie our worth to how much we feel seen, respected and valued, whether it's by someone we don't know or by family and friends. So we tie a lot of value into how people see us and how they treat us. So if we're feeling diminished or feeling irrelevant, that really hits us. It hits us emotionally, physically. And feeling irrelevant doesn't mean that you're invisible. It just means that you're human. It's okay to feel that way.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's a reminder to step back, reframe and reconnect with what truly matters, whether it's with that person, and say have that honest conversation of like you know how you made me feel, how I feel you don't use the word you. I feel that this is what's happening and I would like to change things. So what can we do going forward? So having that honest conversation, I think, really opens the door to true communication and you have value beyond what's being seen or celebrated. You have to embrace that as well.
Speaker 2:Great advice. It only works, though, if the other person has any sort of investment, so you can have that conversation with somebody, but if it's clear that they've already checked out and that that they just do not have that same level of respect, it's a waste of time to have that conversation then if you have that situation, then it may be time to say you know what detach with love and I send you the best.
Speaker 1:And I've had to do that with friendships in my life uh, well-meaning friendships but when you put so much more into that friendship than what that person does and it takes a while for someone else to see that and point it out to you I've had friends who did that to me, who I didn't see it because I was too close. But when you have that happen, you have to reevaluate that friendship or that relationship and say this is not for me. This is making me feel a way that doesn't feel good and I think it's time that we just part ways, and sometimes that has to be the outcome.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that. Yeah, again, I think this is a, I think this is something that a lot of people can relate to. I mean, I don't think we're, you know, like vacuums on this.
Speaker 2:I think there are so many people who are probably sitting there going right saying right now yeah, I get that, I have people like that in my life too. It's true. Typical immediate response to that is fine, I'm never going to do anything nice for anybody, ever again. Right, that's, that's where that. That's where that goes, ben, they've done that, and people like you and me that's we can convince ourselves till we're blue in the face that we are never going to help somebody ever again, but that we're going to probably go out that same day and help somebody.
Speaker 1:And I also think that we put. I think sometimes, as empathic people, we put more emphasis on things that are important to us, we think are important to other people, and when it's not, we're like we feel slighted because we are that giving people, we are that empathic people, and when that other person doesn't resonate with what we feel, we feel irrelevant. And I found that this year too, because of how I am with everybody. And then when you don't, it's not that you're looking to be reciprocated but remember my birthday, that would be nice, you know, because you are my grandchild Exactly.
Speaker 1:You know a happy birthday would be nice, you know, because you want my grandchild, you know. You know a happy birthday would be nice. You don't need to buy me a present, but just a greeting of a happy birthday means so much to me, you know. So those little things that you put so much stock in. And when someone else doesn't do that, you have to look at the type of relationship or dynamic it is. And because people who are empathic feel everything so deeply, we get quote unquote, butthurt more easily because of how we are.
Speaker 2:I hate that term because it just minimizes. I think it just minimizes, like the reality that people I know people are shitty sometimes they are and that they do hurt people.
Speaker 2:You know you bring up. You bring up another great example. So, for example, when my cat passed away recently the one that I had for 17 years, as I talked about in a previous episode I had one person who was basically like shoot the cat and bury in your backyard. And then I do you want to know how many of my friends reached out to me and see if I was okay, zero.
Speaker 2:So I mean it's, it's that stuff that it's like, but you know I would be the first person that if that happened sending a card, sending flowers, like asking them how they're doing, like you know, all of that stuff and I think what's more realistic I've come to the conclusion what's more realistic than actually? That's not sure. One of my friends, patty, did reach out to me. I forgot about that. She's actually been very stable. She's probably one of the only stable people that I know I can rely on these days. What I've come to the conclusion of is that I think it's so. Instead of saying like, oh, I'm never going to do anything nice for anybody again, because I know that that's not realistic, I'm just going to do more nice things for strangers.
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 2:That's a really good mentality to have you know I think I've mentioned this on the other podcast I was donating a lot of money to Palestinian families and you know people who are suffering from genocide because I know that that's going to a good place and I don't have any attachment to whether or not there's there's.
Speaker 2:I don't expect it to be reciprocal, or like I don't expect that they're going to send me thank you cards or do any of that stuff, because I'm doing it just to be a nice person and you know I mean, and all those in those other scenarios, I'm doing it to be a nice person too, but there there's an implied reciprocity to being a friend, right, and if you can't do that like the other thing, I don't know if this happens to you. This is like a chronic thing I deal with in relationships in general, where I can spend an entire hour talking to somebody and I'm not talking about a client, because obviously that's why they're there. I'm talking about like friends, like or family members or whatever where they don't ask me one question about how I'm doing and if I try to even change the subject to something about me, it gets redirected as fast as lightning back to them why do you think that?
Speaker 2:is. I don't know, like I don't know if it's, I don't know, like I don't know if it's, um, I don't know. I mean I've it could be, because I think we're just naturally empathic. But even when I try to like point it out and be like okay, like you know what, like now it's time to talk about me, yeah, it still happens. It still goes right back to them, um, the I mean there's a few people who don't do that. Obviously in my life my mom actually isn't really great. She never does that. Like I can probably vent to my mom for like an hour and she'll, she'll like listen to the whole thing, so that's. I mean, obviously there are people out there that do that. But the amount of few and far between yeah.
Speaker 2:Where it just seems like it's very one-sided.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just I'm starting to become more and more aware of it. So what do you think? What do you think it comes from?
Speaker 1:I think it comes from. Maybe they don't know how to respond to what you're saying or what you're feeling. Maybe they feel like they need to fix you or they need to give the best advice, or maybe they feel that in the field of work that you're in, that you would know more than they would and maybe they would feel judged by what they would tell you. Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean even on like a basic level. So, for example, some you know somebody was asking me about my trip to Italy and but they didn't actually care about my trip to Italy, they just wanted. They just wanted to talk about their own vacation. So when I started to like even say like, oh, we went here, it turned into, hey, I did this, that the other thing and that's all I heard for the next hour was about their trip to where they went.
Speaker 1:Do you think it's because that we're so used to people, people just so used to being on on social media that they it's mostly one sided, most of the time they don't have to engage a whole lot, and I think in real life they forgot that is a two way conversation.
Speaker 2:That's entirely possible. I mean, we are, I think, better at having conversations in general and listening to people. I do think it's still somewhat of an excuse, though I think people have a fundamental responsibility to people they care about to show some interest. Exactly, I mean, you can blame at the end of the day, you can blame anything you want. You can say it's social media, you can say it's politics, you can say it's the weather, you can say it's aliens from Mars. I don't care what you say, it is.
Speaker 1:You'd probably have a better conversation with aliens from Mars.
Speaker 2:Maybe, but at the end of the day it's like if somebody is really important to you, then show that they're important, because at some point they're not going to be there.
Speaker 1:I get that.
Speaker 2:And I can't tell you how many people that I've seen lose people that they care about, and there's never this regret of spending too much time with them, but there's always this oh, you know, I wish I would have spent more time with them and like if I were to die tomorrow. Do not come to my funeral and talk about like how awesome I was when you couldn't even freaking give me the time of day, don't even do that. I don't want you there.
Speaker 1:No, no, I agree with you. I check in with certain family members and check in once or twice a week see how they're doing. Either I call or I send a message, depending. You know how they're feeling. And I have this one friend.
Speaker 1:I have many friends that I talk with on social media, but one that I talked to on a phone and she was a colleague when I was teaching and she just wants to be your friend and she will do anything and everything for you. But sometimes it's overwhelming. But I love her dearly and she had left me a message the other day but I was not feeling well and so I sent her just a quick email. I got your message, but I'm not feeling up to talking right now. I'll call you on Saturday, and I did. We did speak yesterday and I mean, I think all of us have the ability to be that quote unquote bad friend sometimes of not being there for them. If you have a reason, then explain that reason to them. Like I did, I'm feeling kind of crappy today. I can't talk on the phone, but I will call you on Saturday.
Speaker 1:It doesn't take long to send an email or a text. She doesn't usually text, so I sent her an email, but it's just you have to be there. People are going to be there for you. Try to be there for them, and it's not always about being in their face, about being there, but, just like you said, simple little things. How are you today? How are you doing? Is there anything I can do for you? And it's true. Is there anything that I can do to make your day better? Is there anything?
Speaker 2:Which takes zero effort and time. So that's why, when people are like oh, I was too busy, really, you were too busy to text, just to say something, and sometimes just saying I'll hold space for you, I'll hold space for you, we don't need to talk.
Speaker 1:We don't need to talk, we don't need to say anything, but I will sit here with you while you're going through what you're going through, and I'm just here to listen. You know, when someone can just sit there and listen without giving back feedback, sometimes that's the best thing, sometimes that's what we need.
Speaker 2:I think we're a rare breed, Donna, because that doesn't happen very often it doesn't at all.
Speaker 1:No, I know it doesn't at all. No, I know um. You know, I found out a long time ago that if you expect things, you don't expect anything. You won't be disappointed which is really true it's very true, sad, but true.
Speaker 2:But again, it's think of it in terms of a marriage right like when you, when you married your husband yeah, you, you did not. You cannot marry somebody without expectations no right.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a whole thing behind you know, like vows it's implied, and with friends it's the same thing there is expectations, there should be expectations, because that's what the role is. Otherwise you would just be a stranger on the street and the relationship wouldn't be any different. So I do think, although, like we said with Buddhism, it's fundamentally important to say like okay, like let's not have expectations, but then you don't really have a relationship either, and that's so. It's either one or the other, and because we're wired for connection?
Speaker 1:of course we are. We're wide. When you, when you have an empathic personality, empathic nature, we're wired for connection. Whether that connection is one on one, whether it's in person, whether it's in an email, a text or Zoom video or even on social media, we're wired for connection. And when you don't, when you post something give an example you post something on Facebook or social media and no one says anything, or they don't respond or they just don't even. And it's not about likes, it's just about I'm going through something right now and, yeah, I might be going through something a lot more often than what I should, but just you know, say hi, I'm thinking of you, or do you need anything? Or it goes both ways, whether it's in person or through social media. You know I've had people send me private messages and it brightens my day knowing that you know. Somebody just said you know I'm here if you need anything, but just knowing that you're not alone in what you're going through is really helpful. Yeah, so people can be better people. We all can be better.
Speaker 2:I'm guilty of that myself. Yeah, I think I'm guilty. So again, I think we all I am too, I mean I think we all have moments of that where we have like, where we do get like overwhelmed by something or there's like life events going on.
Speaker 2:When it becomes a pattern, though and again I'm talking more about the lying behaviors or, yeah, and I think the thing that I have a hard time with and I would imagine, I mean because we have we're different types of empaths, right, so like I don't know if the same thing happens with you, but don't lie to me, because I can smell it a mile away, like, yeah, I, you know, any one of my glides will tell you that it's very rare they can get anything by me, because I pay attention to everything.
Speaker 2:I pay attention to body language. I mean, I remember what people said to me, you know six, seven months ago, just because I have a really great conversational memory, not because I'm like trying to use you know like store things, but just because I don't know where my wallet is half the time. But I remember the names of people's kids. I remember the names of people's kids. I remember the names of people's pets. I remember the names of people's spouses like people that are important.
Speaker 2:So I remember all of those details and I remember things very well. So when people say inconsistent things to me, it's glaringly obvious. For example, if somebody says, well, I'm just really bad at making plans, but then tells me about all the plans they just made in the last two weeks at making plans but then tells me about all the plans they just made in the last two weeks.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm like, you're a liar, exactly. And once somebody lies to me, like I said, my level of respect for them just like tanks, and then I have to ask myself, okay, like why are you in my life If you're not like, if you have that little respect for me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm guilty of being that quote unquote bad friend of just for me. Yeah, and I'm guilty of being that quote unquote bad friend of just. I'll always answer a text. I'll always answer the phone if I can, but I'm not always great about reaching out and I think that goes with not to make an excuse, but when you deal with chronic pain and chronic health issues, there are days that you can't even talk on the phone. There are days you can't even put one foot in front of the other. So on the days that I do do well, I make sure I make those connections. You know, I have students who still reach out to me and I appreciate that more than anything, because when you, when you teach and you teach as well and so when you can make an impact on a student and they remember what you said and what you did and they'll reach out to you years later, it means a lot, because when we teach, we don't know, Are we being relevant?
Speaker 1:or will we be relevant in four years when you're doing your own thing and when I have students still reach out to me as a text or say, how are you doing? Or, you know, can I do anything for you? Especially, I have one student, Megan. She's absolutely a peach and she will just reach out you know, she sees my post on on Facebook. Reach out on a text, you know, and we'll check, we'll text for a while and it's, it's just. It means so much to me, you know, and it's those little connections, little micro connections, that mean so much and you have to, I think, the connections that you do have. You have to really embrace those and really appreciate those and let them know how much you appreciate it. You know, because not everybody is going to do that. You know the ones that don't have the time. Then you may need to reevaluate those friendships yeah, those what you talked about with students.
Speaker 1:Those are the best surprises ever when you get when you get like a letter or you get an email like five years later and it's like oh my God, you changed my whole life.
Speaker 2:Those things are so, so, so important, and I love when people do that, and they are incredibly meaningful. They really are. They're great reminders. I think the other thing is, though, is that they're infrequent, right so, and although we do care about them, obviously, when I see them I'm like super excited, they they're. They're not the people at the moment who are the ones that I'm like okay, this is what I need from you right they're just they're not delivering it right, and that it's tough.
Speaker 2:It's tough. And again, I know I'm not alone in this. I I guarantee you, everybody listening to this is probably like, yeah, no, I get it, I go through that too and yeah, so what do we do to fix that? I think we have to be. Sometimes it's okay to be like you know what. Bye.
Speaker 1:Right, sometimes you have to, and just for your own mental health and for your own wellbeing, I think you need to cut those cords of just say you know what this is. This is not. Maybe you know we think about relationships. We have them for a season or a reason. People come into our lives for a reason or a season. Some people are not meant to be in our lives forever and some are the ones that are not meant to be. They will know when their exit is ready to. You know, exit, laugh, stay dry. You know they'll know, and sometimes, sometimes they do need a little push. I've had to do that with friendships over the years because it was just they.
Speaker 1:They were so needy that I possibly could not meet their expectations because I had so much going on and I had to end those friendships because it was only what could I do for them. It was always what could you do for me? What can you do for me? What can you give me? What can you do for me?
Speaker 2:And those are not healthy? No, they're not. But again, I feel like more people are becoming like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's way more than it was before, I think your radar goes up and it's like I know this behavior.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know where it's going. I talked about that in the episode we did on narcissism. I don't think that the rate of narcissistic personality disorder is going up, but I think the rate of people who are just being narcissistic are going up. I mean, you talked about social media and it's all about like, what do I get? What do I get me, me, me, me, me.
Speaker 2:It's true, and there's just this fundamental lack of any sort of regard for people, like what they're feeling or how your actions and I don't mean you don't, I mean like you guys, like the population how your actions are going to impact people. There there was a study I forgot where this was and this, I think, is very powerful where they had two groups of people looking at a product and basically they told the first group of people that the feedback that they gave about the product was going to be shared with the person who has created the product and that they had to explain it to them. They told the other group of people that they were not going to have any interaction with the inventor of that product at all. They could give whatever feedback they wanted to give. So, of course, when they thought that they weren't going to have any sort of interaction with the person, their feedback was malicious oh wow, it was like really awful. And then they basically told them at the end of it well, oh wow, feelings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can be honest with that person and how you feel. But the thing is you need to take that action. If you just keep it all to yourself and, like you said, just write it down and knowing I'm not going to give it to them, doesn't solve anything, because the other person is still waiting for you to be that friend or be where you can meet them at. And if you're not going to, you need to. You need to let that person know If they're again, if they're receptive.
Speaker 2:Know right, if they're again, if they're receptive, because if they're not receptive, sometimes all you have to do is just write it down and like, maybe do something symbolic, like burn it or bury it or whatever. I've done that before just knowing that that person, that person doesn't care because you don't.
Speaker 2:You know we don't have value to that person anymore no for whatever reason, no, and that's hard to not personalize it is it truly is to be like okay, well, I guess I didn't mean as much to that person as I thought I did yeah and it's a testament, I think, to just like where everything is going and why it's important. So, instead of shutting down and saying that's it, I'm never gonna like be nice to anybody anymore, redirecting and saying like, okay, I'm gonna be nice to other people, yeah, and that's that and when you could be kind without expecting anything back in return.
Speaker 1:Those are the best things. On Halloween, when the kids were trick-or-treating in the neighborhood, there was this little boy that came up and he asked my husband, do you have a wife? And he said, well, she's lying down because she's not feeling. Well, well, can you give her this? And my husband gave it to me. It was a little card and it had a pen for a little pink ribbon, pen for breast cancer awareness. And it said and so she believes she could. So she did. And when I got that I cried like a baby because it meant so much.
Speaker 1:I didn't know this person but, that day I was going through so much and just somebody who was just being kind, yeah, giving you something out of the generosity of their heart, and they were giving it out to the women in the neighborhood and I wanted to acknowledge that because and then we I belong to a local um group for our neighborhood and I posted a picture on there and I said thank you.
Speaker 1:You have no idea how much I needed to see this today to validate how I was feeling, because I had a lot of couple crappy days and seeing this, knowing that somebody reached out, being kind, who doesn't even know me, meant so much to me and what you want to do is you want to pay that forward.
Speaker 1:It gives you the impetus to be that person for someone else, and that's what I'm choosing to do with my life is trying to give back, not because of recognition, not because you get something back, but you might make someone smile that day. So I think if we focus on those types of friendships, relationships or even people that we meet, I think it'll make us feel so much better, because one we're not expecting anything out of it and it boosts our serotonin level. It boosts that feel good chemicals on our brain because we know that we were doing it just of the goodness of our heart. And, yes, and you need friendships in your life that are lasting. But just doing things out of random acts of kindness, it will make you feel so much better of just doing that. You know, just having a nice word for someone or just being kind when someone's having a bad day, you know, I'll even do it to my kitty. She's having a bad day, she's in a crappy mood. I just tell her I love her more.
Speaker 1:You know people places pets and things have problems too you know you just have to think outside the box and reach out to people and just meet them where they're at and and do those random acts of kindness, because you will not know how much you impact somebody.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's very true. It's very true, so it's very true. So I thank you for sharing that and I'm curious because this was such a processing thing for both of us. I think, right, like to just be vulnerable and like talk about the stuff that we're going through. So I really appreciate it. I'm hoping that we'll get some feedback from the people who are listening. I did get some tumblers made so that have the logo of the podcast on them, so if you would like a tumbler, I have absolutely.
Speaker 2:I have a limited supply, not many for the, for the listeners, though, so if you want to send me feedback, you can either do it on the fan page and on the feedback on any of the down, like Spotify or like Buzzsprout, there's an option where it says email.
Speaker 2:So you can or send fan mail and it just comes directly to Buzzsprout, but you can also email me. So if you email me feedback about what you think or if there's any episodes that you want to hear about the first five people who do that, I will send you a tumblr in the mail, um, with the with the uh logo on it, and then don. I can certainly send you one if you want save them, for the viewers, for the listeners.
Speaker 1:It's implied I do have extra for guests too.
Speaker 2:So I can certainly, I can certainly give you one, um. So yeah, it'd be great. It would be great to get some feedback on topics that you want to hear about. We do have some guest speakers coming up in the next month or so. We have, I think, two or three lined up. And, donna, do you want to, because I know you had mentioned you're going to be starting your own podcast. Do you want to plug that?
Speaker 1:I'm so excited. I've been wanting to do this for a long time and I get so stuck in the analysis, paralysis part of it, and I'm hoping to launch it on my birthday, which is December 5. And I'm hoping to launch to at least two episodes and they're not going to be long. But I have you know, even if just one person listens, I'll be happy. But it's something that I feel passionate about doing. I love writing, I love helping people.
Speaker 1:I used to have a private practice where I saw clients for different things and I still have so much to give. I can't work with clients the way that I used to because of my medical conditions and in the, my medical restrictions that I have, but I still have a brain and I can still think and I can still talk and I can still help people. So there's going to be a lot of you know little surprises along the way, things that I want to try, including, you know little, things that I used to do in my practice. So we'll see. But I'm hoping that at least one person listens and if someone day can be better because of it, then I know I've done my job. So that's what I'm going to be doing.
Speaker 2:Do you have a name for it yet?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's called Healing Our Kindred Spirits.
Speaker 2:When you release it, let me know and I will put a link on the page for this podcast as well.
Speaker 1:I will Thank you. I'm look, I've been struggling with this for a year and I just have to get out of my own way and just do it. I've 134 topic ideas. It's just I'm stuck on the music, so I just need to get out of my own way.
Speaker 2:Well, now that you something, now that you've put it out there, maybe that'll be like more motivation to yes, now that I put it out, there's like a tick, tock, tick, tock your clock is ticking.
Speaker 1:Just get it done, woman, and I will. I will get it done and it's. I want it to be engaging, I want it to be fun. I have a facebook group page already, um, that people have already joined, so that we there, we can put interactive things on there and for ideas and, if you want to, feedback. So it's really helpful. But just, you know, I wanted I have to do this. It's not doing it for any reason, except that I feel passionate about it. I'm a giving person, as Matt can tell you, I love to give.
Speaker 2:Yes, you do. We have that in common.
Speaker 1:I just, I just want to help people. And if I can help people through what I say, my words, my actions, then I know that I'm here for a reason and that's going to be the last decade or so of my life and I wanted to have meaning. So it's all about meaning.
Speaker 2:That's thank you. That's that's thank you for that. I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:It is important.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and you certainly have had a meeting in my life.
Speaker 1:Same here, same here.
Speaker 2:We can always make each other laugh and I do want to get each other, but hey, you know, and I do want to just sincerely thank all the people who are listening, because I do. I have a lot of gratitude and gratefulness for the people who are consistently listening A lot of you, I don't know. There are some people who follow it that I do know. Thank you sincerely. It's an honor and a privilege to know that there are people that are listening, and I do really want to hear back from people, so please send me some information, because your voices are important too. I hope this episode resonated with you. It was again interesting to do this processing live. I think it was vulnerable for both of us. I think it's the first time I've done that on this, this podcast. Who knows, maybe we'll pick another topic later on, and I'm sure we will, but I guess, walking away from it.
Speaker 2:What I would want people to hear, or what would I think maybe even I need to hear myself too, is that you know we are, you get what you settle for right. So like, if you, if you put your value at a certain point, um, and then you accept behavior from people that are unacceptable, then that that kind of brings you down. Now the. Of course the problem with that is, like I said earlier, the. The numbers on loneliness show that loneliness is linked to lots of health conditions too, right. So lower life expectancy, heart problems, all that stuff is to maybe reevaluate those relationships that are not bringing us joy, like Marie Kondo would say, and go out and find which is not always easy find the relationships and or new relationships that will bring you that joy. But again, I know that's easier said than done yeah, and can I add something?
Speaker 1:of course, of course you can, okay? Um, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm not engaging in activities that require your complete attention. It's a little exercise as I will, a little exercise for you to think about. I want you to close your eyes and think of a person whose life you've touched even in a small way. Picture their face, their smile or the gratitude they expressed. Hold on to that feeling. It's proof that you matter, and if you have been the one who perhaps caused someone to feel irrelevant, take a few moments and send them a message. Let them know they're on your mind. Small connections have a big impact, and relevance fades, but connection endures. So just remember that Relevance fades, but connection endures.
Speaker 2:Thank you, donna, I appreciate that, and everybody. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving. If you celebrate Thanksgiving or Friendsgiving or whatever, I hope you really enjoy it and you'll be here in Kermis again, probably in about two weeks. I'm going to hopefully try to get the show back to a weekly podcast, but that might be a little bit in the works. So thank you everybody and Donna, thank you so much for being back. Hopefully we'll have you back again.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
