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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 3 E: 6 Insurance problems and consequences of oppression.
What if the oppressive systems you navigate daily are pushing you to the brink? Join us as we welcome back Donna from "Healing Our Kindred Spirits" to confront the chaotic intersection of the U.S. healthcare system and societal tensions. We tackle the controversial shooting involving Luigi Mangione and the United CEO, diving deep into the emotions and frustrations that underpin such events. Through personal stories and heartfelt discussions, we highlight the urgent need for empathy and understanding in navigating a healthcare landscape riddled with systemic inefficiencies and insurance nightmares.
Our conversation doesn’t stop at healthcare; it spirals into broader societal concerns that affect us all. The disparity between the wealthy and the working class, the numbing effect of media distractions, and the chilling realities of school safety are all on the table. We question corporate and political motivations, aiming to dissect the disconnection between decision-makers and the struggles of everyday people. Donna and I passionately advocate for reforms that prioritize ethical responsibility and quality care, particularly in mental health services, where current systems often fail those in need.
As we peel back the layers, digital freedom and security take center stage, with platforms like TikTok igniting fears and hopes in equal measure. We share stories that resonate, from the terrifying content kids stumble upon online, to the maze of healthcare costs and insurance denials. Through these explorations, we underscore the importance of advocacy and action, pushing for a fairer, more accessible world where justice and safety prevail. Join us for this gripping episode as we challenge the norms and strive for systemic change.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I have Donna with me again today. Welcome back, donna.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:And Donna, before we get started on this topic, I want you to plug your podcast again.
Speaker 1:Okay, my own podcast is called Healing Our Kindred Spirits, and you can find it on any platform that has podcasts Spotify, itunes, apple, amazon, buzzfeed.
Speaker 2:Buzzsprout, buzzsprout.
Speaker 1:Buzzfeed is a whole different thing, Buzzsprout, but anywhere you get your podcast, you can find the episode and there's a trailer up that's four minutes long and the episode itself is under 30 minutes. So please do give it a listen to and like download, leave a review, Let me know what you think of it and there'll be more coming.
Speaker 2:And you have. I have to say this because I listened to it when I was driving. You have the perfect voice for a podcast, especially with the topic that you were talking about, because your voice is so soothing and relaxing and it matches the kind of spiritual energy that you're giving off, so I loved listening to it, thank you, and I would highly recommend it. And, you know, if people could give it a listen and give Donna a five-star review, that would be fantastic and really help support of her as well.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:So today we're going to be talking about this is going to be an interesting conversation. So we're going to be talking about what happened recently with Luigi Mangione and the shooting of the CEO from United, and I think it's going to be really interesting because, donna, you are the beacon of hope and light. You come from a higher level and I certainly have no problem getting in the gutter sometimes.
Speaker 1:We all have opinions and no one is right or wrong. We are entitled and when you can engage in conversation without name calling each other or breaking each other down, that's a really good down, that's a really good conversation, that's a really good thing. To have Opposing opinions doesn't mean you're not still friends or that you can't be nice to each other. That's okay, as long as and I tell my kids this you can disagree with me, but do it respectfully.
Speaker 2:And, ironically, I think that that is what is coming out of the whole thing that happened, and I do want to preface this by saying he is innocent until proven guilty. So this is, as of right now he's the alleged perpetrator of it. But you know, we were talking about before, we started recording that this is bringing a lot of people together. Now Both sides of the political spectrum are saying there's a problem with healthcare, and there has been a problem with healthcare for I don't know decades I mean ever since I've worked in the field and I can personally say that United has been the worst among them, and I see that from a provider perspective. I mean I could give you countless, countless scenarios of clients that were denied very important medical procedures or even treatment that ended up getting much worse because of arbitrary denials.
Speaker 1:You know just insurance companies trying to get richer and richer and richer, and I've been at the other end of that where, as a patient, I've had to wait for approvals and been denied services of something that I was approved of before. For an example, I used to get the Uflexa knee injections into my knee with my orthopedic doctor Would get them no problem. Then all of a sudden they had to jump through hoops. They had to send this documentation. And have you tried this? Have you tried that? What should have just taken an easy approval took me four months to get approved and I did these shots twice a year. So every time I'd have to start ahead of time of getting that approval in and it's frustrating. So I can imagine people who are going through any kind of treatments maybe cancer treatments, radiation, anything like that that they get bogged down in paperwork and it's unfair because so many people are dying while waiting to get approved, and that's the sad part of the insurance industry.
Speaker 2:And as a whole it's just it's sad, it really is really, really sad all the way around it to you and I already forgot it, so I'm going to look it up on my phone because I had it that I saw that JFK had said which is, those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. And I certainly think that that's what's happening, because you can only oppress people for so long before people start to fight back. And it's hard to feel anger towards people who are really fighting against a broken system. I mean, people do it in different ways. You know that's again, I'm not advocating for it, but I think it's also it was bound to happen if it didn't, if it wasn't him, it was going to be somebody else. Because I mean, you can't, like I said, you can only oppress people for so long before they start to fight back.
Speaker 1:And I get that and online I mean I don't have a lot of social media but at the same time I see people making comments of great who's next, who's next, who's next. And I actually had read that someone referred him to as the modern day Robin Hood and I didn't know what. I was just in disbelief, maybe because I always come from a place of empathy and I always I cry at the news, I cry at everything. But I was just. He was a human, no matter what you thought of him. He was somebody's father, somebody's husband, and it's not always that person making the decisions. You have a board to respond to. You have to answer to everybody else.
Speaker 1:That old saying is crap rolls downhill. You know, it's just. He's doing his job like maybe it's not the best way he should have done, or anybody. And I'm sure in his personal life he probably said would love to approve everybody for what they need, but they have a board that they need to answer to. So I think the anger needs to be pointed not just at the CEO, but maybe at the people who are making those kind of financial decisions, to be understanding and more open to what people are going through. Our system is so broken and when you even have doctors telling you my husband had an appointment the other day with a neurologist at UMass and we did it virtually and even he said he said the system is so broken because you're waiting for approvals for everything.
Speaker 2:it's so broken this is where this is where I think we might. My viewpoint on it is that it's actually working the way it was intended to work. If it was broken, it would indicate that at some point it was designed to work, but I don't think it was ever designed to work. I think it was designed for the rich and for the sick to get sicker.
Speaker 2:So it's actually working exactly the way it's supposed to. When I so, when we say and we all do this, I think, when we say it's broken, it's erroneous, because it's not, it is, it is, and it's not just insurance companies.
Speaker 1:It's workers compensation oh, it's everything. It's not, it is, it is, and it's not just insurance companies. It's workers' compensation oh, it's everything, it's everything. All the insurance, whatever you have, it's so broken.
Speaker 1:My husband got hurt in 2021 and he is still waiting. He's waited four months now for the insurance company at workers' comp to approve an MRI to look at how the surgery did for his back. So, because if he would have had all of this done and approved in the beginning when he got hurt, he could have gone back to work, he could have healed. He had all these broken ribs, this and that, and you know what the hospital told me that day, when I had said aren't you going to do anything? Are you going to do surgery for this, this and that? Nope, it's a workers' comp case. We do the bare minimum because we know we're not. We have a low in reimbursement rate and I was just shocked.
Speaker 1:So because he didn't get the care he needed, because the insurance company determined that he wasn't allowed to get that done. He's still suffering today and his injuries are worse because of it, and that makes me angry. That makes me angry that someone else has this ability and this fortitude to go ahead and make those decisions for people's lives, because it affects people financially, emotionally, physically, every which way, and it's hard and it's sad and something positive needs to to happen to change it. But will it?
Speaker 2:we don't know you brought up a great point about what who's making the decisions. If, if I were to look at from a practice perspective, if a colleague of mine calls me up and they're talking about one of their particular clients, I can't diagnose that client because I've never met them right I can give examples of what I might do if that person was my client, but I have no right to dictate what that other professional does in terms of their treatment.
Speaker 2:Just the same way, what if a nurse called me up and said, hey, I have this patient, here's what's going on.
Speaker 2:I mean, the first thing I would have to be mindful of is one I have to practice within the scope of my practice. So I can't be giving out medical advice as a therapist to this nurse but, again, I can't even really give any practical solutions, even with mental health, because I haven't met the client. I can't diagnose somebody I've never met. That's fundamental malpractice In terms of insurance agencies as a provider. So if I have a client that I've been seeing for a year and I know the client really well, and I call the insurance company and you've got a bureaucrat at the end of the phone who is now denying services because they are saying that my client doesn't meet whatever protocols or whatever, they are fundamentally practicing outside of the scope of their practice because they are not a qualified healthcare professional and if they are, they're not treating my client just like they wouldn't be treating the patient of a doctor, so they do not have authority to then dictate that person's practice, but they do it all the time.
Speaker 1:I see that and you see them have. They hire nurses and nurse practitioners and physician's assistants to have on staff. But if you're not meeting that patient, that client, how can you determine what they do or do not need? Everyone has a story, Everyone has something going on, but they try to group everybody together. There's an algorithm Okay, and we've seen it done. Go to the doctor's office, click this, this, this and that, and then something comes up oh, it could be that. Or click, click this. It's the same thing. Everything is algorithms and we're not an algorithm. We're human people, we're human beings and we deserve to be treated so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, but the reality is that we're just dollar signs.
Speaker 1:We are. I agree with you 100%.
Speaker 2:If it's a corporation, if it's a, I mean I can personally tell you and I'm not, you know, with my, with my clients, they're not dollar signs to me, but I'm a private practitioner, exactly so I put all of my effort into my clients and I, you know, I care very much about my clients. I want my clients to get good care, I want them to get the best possible care that they can. And you know, there have been certainly times where I free service people because they don't have the ability to pay. That's the way it should be Exactly. It shouldn't be. I would never say to a client I've been treating for 10 years if they suddenly couldn't pay for counseling or they lost their insurance, that's it goodbye. I mean that first of all, it's abandonment of care and I think it's just in terms of human conditioning it's.
Speaker 1:It's just awful right that that's that is not caring about somebody no, no, it's not and when we're talking, like you said, the big corporations, the hospital-owned corporations and it's sad because you're they don't care.
Speaker 2:No, they don't they don't.
Speaker 1:It's about the bottom line and they try to.
Speaker 2:Here's another. I'm going to give you another great example specific to united, because I think I'm going to have an honest conversation about this right, because these are the things that I do know about. In our field. We have a mental health crisis. We have a mental health crisis everywhere, right, particularly in new england, but I mean we have it all over the country. We don't have the providers to also provide the services for the people because the numbers are so high in terms of who's looking for it.
Speaker 2:So what they've done is they have piloted a program with the NASW and Social Work where, when people graduate with their master's degree, they get their first license as part of their graduation. Now, that first license is not billable unless you're under an independent person, like myself. So some companies like Blue Cross. Blue Cross had all I had to do was give them supervisory protocol and I was able to hire people who have their first license and they can see people and we can bill for it under my license. So that now allows for these two people I've hired to take on, you know, more clients, which is a great solution.
Speaker 2:United refuses to do that unless you have five or more people working for you. So, even though that would be a viable option, they won't do it. Wow, so that's one of the many things they do. I'm not surprised and it's stupid. And it's stupid because they literally could open up the amount of services they had available by doing this. So now it's like well, I'm sorry, if you have United, my students I call them students because they're my former students but these employees can't see you anymore because I'm sorry, but United won't pay for it.
Speaker 1:That's sad.
Speaker 2:Which is terrible.
Speaker 1:It is. It's a miscarriage of justice to be able to deny someone care because of it. And they're not the only ones.
Speaker 2:Aetna won't do it, cigna won't do it, I think, as a matter of fact, the only people that will do it are Blue Cross, so they, I think, are far ahead of the game in terms of offering services to their clients.
Speaker 2:The other thing, too, and I can give you an example of the first time I ran into a problem with United, and this was I don't know 2007, 2008, somewhere around there I was working in intensive outpatient and we had to get prior off for clients when they were coming in. This was for addiction treatment, and I am not being hyperbolic when I say this. I spoke to 14 different people over the course of two hours at United and, of course, it's all outsourced. So I'm talking to people in different countries and trying to explain what's going on. The very last person said to me her plan does not require prior auth, so she can basically get the services here. Wasted two hours of my time, and I spoke to 14 people. Now, that is not billable time for the agency that I'm working with, so that was really just a waste of two hours. And then guess what happened when we submitted the claims.
Speaker 1:Got denied.
Speaker 2:It got denied because they said I never called for pre-auth, so luckily I had documented every single person I spoke to the time. I spoke to them and we sent it off and we ended up getting reimbursed, but we had to fight for it. I just spoke to somebody today. Similar scenario they had somebody that they were. They needed to have a surgery. The surgery had to get pre-auth reunited. They were able to get pre-auth, they performed the surgery and then the hot and then the insurance denied. It said you never got pre-auth and now they're sending them this like 30, 40 thousand dollar bill. Oh my god. And of course they were able to provide the documentation and to say, look, we did get pre-auth and you gave it to us. And they said, oh well, we'll look into it, because of course they have like weeks to look into it and of course you know it's.
Speaker 1:It's terrible that happened to me once. Um, I got the pre-authorization, the doctor got it, got it by fax, everything was cool to go. And then, when I had the procedure done, I get a bill. This was not pre-authorized. I'm like I yeah, it was, you know it's. It's terrible, it is awful and it happens everywhere. It happens to every insurance through from every insurance company. Uh, every I, every person in America who has insurance has had to deal with the crap there's no other word for it the crap that we have to go through to get something approved. And it's even worse now because you need to get a referral. Then, if they don't get the referral, you can't be seen that day. So you have to call a bazillion times and I've always used to tell my students document everything If you don't write it down. It didn't happen. We're talking name time who you spoke with? And have you ever run into somebody, a situation where you ask someone their name and they hang up on you?
Speaker 1:No, I've had them refuse to give it to me that happened the other day and it wasn't a medical thing, it was actually the state of Rhode Island. I was calling for some information and I was writing it down and because sometimes I want to make sure I got it right, I'd read it back to them. Can I read this back to you, make sure I got it right? Well, I just told you what it was. I understand, but because I wrote it down, I want to make sure I have the right phone numbers, everything, and it would only take not even a minute and he says, well, I don't have time for that.
Speaker 2:So I said, well, can I just have your?
Speaker 1:name so I know who I spoke with Click. Oh my God, I started crying because I'm like I was on hold for so long. I had to call back again and I got someone who was actually nice and it was it was. It's terrible that even the customer service for any company today it's not just the medical insurance companies everywhere you wait on hold forever or you got you get hung up on after being on hold forever and that's frustrating. So by the time you get to another person you're a little frustrated.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, I think we can. I I think and again I'm not condoning it, but I think everybody can understand how a situation like this happens. When you know, I think when we talked last time, I was telling you about the dental issue I was having and I was only in pain for a couple of days and it was, I mean, I was literally getting to the point where, you know, I was almost becoming completely irrational because of how much pain I was in. I was almost becoming completely irrational because of how much pain I was in. So if you're in chronic pain all the time and you are following the proper channels meaning you're contacting the insurance company and you're filing appeals, and it's just kind of this red tape of BS what choice do you have? Like, at what point, you know, do people start to snap?
Speaker 1:And I and being from that point that I felt like snapping many times. My release thing is just I cry. I don't scream or yell when I get upset. I cry and I can imagine the people who are going through so much worse than what I'm going through of being at that point. But from what I heard on the news that he wasn't even a member of United Health. He wasn't even covered by United Health. So we don't really know what his rationale was for going after someone. You know it's just so many things that we don't know. And again, he's innocent until proven guilty. You know and we make sure you know we want people. He's innocent, so proven guilty, but what was the rationale? I'd like to know that.
Speaker 2:You know what was his if he did it, if he did it, if he did it because that.
Speaker 1:What was the rationale, especially not being a member of united health? What? What happened? Was it a family member that was denied, or and and as a parent, I know my child was sick and was denied a service that they needed to save their life. I might go off the deep end too, but at the same time, what was the rationale of doing this? And then you worry about copycats. Will people go out and do that to other things that they're upset about or angry about? And we've seen it.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what I saw somebody say and I think was very poignant, was they said well, good, now ceos are going to know what it like, what it's like to be a teacher and a student in a school right now.
Speaker 2:And ironically, you just said there was another school shooting today yeah, because it was wisconsin because when kids are killed politicians and you know all of these ceos they're just like man thoughts and prayers and they on they don't make a big deal out of it. But now that one of them has been killed suddenly oh God, this is the worst thing that's ever happened Like, how could anybody possibly do this? Well, I don't know. Where have you been?
Speaker 1:I don't think anything will change until it touches somebody personally, and that's politicians, ceos, whatever it is. If you don't have a personal connection to something that has happened to someone in your family, you're not going to act on it. And it's not about you know the guns or the second. It's not about that. It's about just justice, just doing the right thing by these children. These children should be able to go to school every day and not have to worry.
Speaker 1:My daughter this is her first year of teaching high school out in Texas and when she told me that they go through drills and the doors are locked and what they have, it's scary because when we went to school, you and I, we had fire drills or bomb threats.
Speaker 1:That was it. We didn't have anything to this no, we didn't. But it's scary the culture and the climate of things today how different they were when we were kids and, to be honest, we've gotten to the point that we're even sometimes afraid to leave the house. My husband he has military training and when we used to go somewhere he'd always know where the exits were, just in case we had to make a quick exit. And because of his injuries, his train of thought isn't as clear as it used to be, and so he's kind of afraid to go out now because he can't act quickly, he can't think quickly you know, again it goes to I'm not blaming the insurance industry, but again, if things were done and approved timely, he may not be suffering what he's going through right now because of it right.
Speaker 2:There's two, there's almost two societies happening in our country. There's the, the actual society of people like you and me and all of the people who are, you know, overtaxed, over, you know overworked, not getting any benefits. And then there's the rich right, and there is such a disconnect between the two. Even listening to the media like and it doesn't matter I've listened to all sorts of different media coverage right now they are so disconnected from what the country is saying and they're not covering things, like they're not covering the, the protests against insurance companies or the college walkouts right now because of insurance companies, but they're covering this weird, random drone thing that just happened to happen right around the same time.
Speaker 1:Right that you notice that that happens every time there's a big news story it's a wag the dog every time there's a big news story, there's something else that happens.
Speaker 2:It's it's crazy, and it's crazy. You know it's wild because I mean as I don't know how much you've seen, but the military isn't concerned about it, and so if they're not concerned about it, it's clearly not that big of a deal. But there's so much media attention being put in on right now which tells you you need to. It's like squirrel right, like look over here, look over here. Well, I'm ignoring it. I don't care what's happening with the drones, because it's all smoke and mirrors. What I want to know is what's happening with the insurance stuff right now and what they're going to be doing to fix it, because or what they're going to be doing with the school shootings, because these are all problems that are out of control.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of problems that need to be addressed and nothing is being addressed, and you wonder if it ever will. Or will we just have to become a way of life for us? Will this just become a way of life of something that we have to get used to, or will something actually change? And I hope it does, but sadly, I think. You know, statistically, I think there's going to be more violence.
Speaker 2:To go back to the quote that JFK said this is, you know. This is why history is so important and why I mean we know what's going to happen, because it's the same thing that happens every single time. Certainly, like you said, there's going to be people who say this is just the new way of life. I mean, if I had a dime for every time I heard somebody say welcome to America or welcome to like, this is the new thing, yeah, of course there's going to be people who are really passive and don't do anything, but what's going to happen is, eventually, french Revolution, all these, and they're going to. It's going to be like, ok, no more, like we've had it, like the peasants are going to revolt. Yeah, and it's happening.
Speaker 1:It's happening and there's more coming. Of course there is, there is more coming. And not to get into it too much, but you just feel it, you can. It's palpable that something is getting coming to a head and it's going to bubble over like a volcano. It's going to get to that point where it's just going to be all hell breaks loose, right, and that scares me.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, one of the I don't remember what book I read this in. I read this in my 20s, so I may be screwing it up a little bit, but there was. They were talking about the different ages, or the age of Aquarius or the age, and I think it was the Egyptians who started talking about this and they reflected on all the different ages, because I think they're about 2000 years, a piece like roughly timeframe, and how there was the age of Taurus, the age of Aries, age of Pisces and the age of Aquarius, and I think the age of Aquarius, part of it was the destruction of technology, that technology would fall apart and that people would have to return to their roots, and that's where we are time-wise right now. So I mean, are we getting to the point where technology is just going to implode?
Speaker 1:Intuitively, I think something is definitely on the horizon to happen. It's just be prepared, be prepared. And just it's scary. We we live in a different world today than what we grew up in, even if, looking at our food supply, how different it is compared to when we were growing up. This is why people have issues, so many health issues, because our food supply isn't what it used to be. So many people are sick, they have have diabetes, they have this, they have that, can't lose weight. It's our food supply is so crappy that it's going to have to be like start over again. You know, just clear the slate, and I totally just clear the slate and start over again. And sadly, that may be something that is going to be happening down the road.
Speaker 1:Nobody knows, we can't tell the future, obviously, but it's sad the way things have gone over the years and no matter when you put the news on, there's always something terrible happening and it was never like that when we were kids. It was. You know, you and I are only like 10 years apart and it was never like that when we were kids. No, it's not. It's not. It's a very different culture and my grandchildren are inheriting this new culture and sad to say that they're so programmed by what they read on social media or and I know they're not watching the news, but on social media, which is basically the same that you wonder if they're getting all of this cynicism. That's just making them desensitized to everything. It's just crazy, it really is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's. I mean, the positive side of social media is that there's certain things we would have never known about if it wasn't for social media. Exactly is that there's certain things we would have never known about if it wasn't for social media. And, of course, the response now is to ban it, to get rid of TikTok and make it a. It's a security threat. It's not a security threat. It's because people are starting to unify and people are starting to see what's happening in other countries and they don't like it and I think it scares people in power. So they're like we got to get rid of this because you know, once they figure out, once they pull that curtain and see the wizard is just, you know this fraud, they're going to revolt. So we got to get rid of that, we got to hide them from pulling that curtain.
Speaker 1:No, I don't believe in censoring things online and not saying to censor it, but parents need to also be aware of what their children are doing online, you know, or what they're you know subscribing to, or anything like that. My little granddaughter, she's 11. She sends me videos from YouTube and I'm thinking what the heck are you watching? And it's about doomsday. And then she's so scared I'm like I said this is not real. It it's okay. They're just doing it to scare you, but will it happen? It's okay, you're okay.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of stuff that they're, they're, you know, coming upon. Let me just be watching an innocent video and then this pops up as a suggestion kid's gonna click on it, right, and it's just. You know, it's sad that we have to live in a society today where, literally, we have to watch our back and that we have to fight so hard for things that I'm not saying that we're entitled to, but things that we work so hard for, insurance being one of them, because it is so expensive and so many people are struggling to maintain keeping their insurance keeping their insurance.
Speaker 1:When my husband was working before, he was paying $375 every two weeks for health insurance for him and I, and we still had an $8,000 deductible. Wow, and it's like it's crazy. By the time you get to your deductible, the year starts over again. So you have to do it all over again, and it's sad because you have to either go without or you have to just wait till you meet that deductible. And it's sad because you have to either go without or you have to just wait till you meet that deductible. And it's just, there's got to be something that is going to break before it can get better. It's something needs to shatter for it to get better, and I don't know quite what that is.
Speaker 2:I don't think I mentioned this before on the podcast, but I had. One of the things I do miss about Rhode Island is Rhode Island. Blue Cross was very good in terms of a consumer. I never had any issues with them. Having moved to Connecticut, I have Blue Cross, Anthem, and they are terrible. I've had this situation with blood work where so my doctor is in Rhode Island because all my you know, all my providers are in Rhode Island, yeah, and she ordered blood work, which is typical. They sent me to a lab. They gave me the lab to go to. So Anthem had said here are the labs we cover. I said, okay, so I go to the lab, I get the blood work done. They don't get paid. So then they come after me for the money and then I call and I you know what happened. Well, they said it's not covered. So I call Anthem and Anthem's like well, it's not covered because you went to Chicago.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:And I said I most certainly did not go to Chicago to get blood work done.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:And they said, well, let's look into it. Then they call me back and I can't get a live person in Connecticut, so this is again all people who are not in the country. So then I get a call back and they say, well, the lab must have sent the sample to Connecticut I mean, I'm sorry to Chicago. So they billed from Chicago and that's not covered. And I said that's 100% impossible because I got the lab work done on a Monday and I went to my doctors on Tuesday and she had the results. There is no way that they sent it to Chicago unless they teleported it. It didn't get to Chicago overnight to the next morning. So then they look into it and they call me back and they say, well, it's denied because your doctor's out of network.
Speaker 2:And I said the doctor is clearly not out of network because you paid for my physical and you paid for my well visits. Then it's well, it's a zip code issue because she's in Rhode Island and she ordered you know, she ordered blood work in Connecticut. So I said, okay, then where am I supposed to go? If you told me to go here and you're not paying for it? Where am I supposed to go? Oh well, we're not going to cover any blood work because we don't cover Rhode Island and you can't get it done in Connecticut if she's a Rhode Island provider.
Speaker 2:And I said okay, none of this makes any sense. So that was in March and I think the bill was for like $800 and something and I'm like I'm not paying it. You sent me there so I kept fighting it, kept fighting it and every time I called, as I just told you, it was different stories. I had to file a complaint with the health care commission and, because I can advocate for myself, I called and not everybody can. I told them all that information and then I was a pain in their butt, butt. So I kept calling them up and what's going on? What's going on? And finally the Health Care Commission said to me this is ridiculous. We are getting the same excuses that you're getting. First it was this excuse, then it was that excuse, now it's this excuse, now it's that excuse.
Speaker 2:So they, they did have to pay for it, but it took until, I think, november, for them to say what so from from March to November, I'm not getting blood work done because I don't want to take the risk that I'm going to get another $800 bill and they're like well, we'll give you another lab that we definitely cover. That's what you said about the first lab.
Speaker 1:Right. So how do I know? Give it to me in writing, that's what I would say.
Speaker 2:So I'm not going to go to another lab and get it done and then have another $800 bill that pops up. So, unfortunately, that pops up. So this is I, unfortunately. This is what the large majority of people are dealing with and it's again, you can only. Another example I would give it to is if you're being held captive and you're you're being tortured every single day and after three years of this, you end up like killing your, your captor, to get away. Are you the bad guy?
Speaker 1:True, I can understand it from that point of view.
Speaker 2:I get it right.
Speaker 1:You made you made a point something early to. You said you can advocate for yourself. Imagine how many people especially the elderly, yeah who cannot advocate for themselves. My husband and I were talking about this the other day. We grew up where we are in an era of time where we can say no to a doctor or a question things, or if they prescribe a prescription is you know what it's 800? Is there a generic? I could take.
Speaker 1:The older generation I'm saying people 70s, 80s, hot, you know older grew up in an era where the doctor is always right, right, you don't question it, you just whatever. They say this. If they say this is what I need, this is what I gotta take, this is where I gotta go, and you know they're getting these doctors getting prescriptions. You know the kickbacks from the drug companies because you know give you the samples and prescribe this. It's horrible where people are having to choose, especially the elderly, the disadvantaged, the disabled, are having to choose between living, which is paying their rent, their mortgage, their groceries, and buying prescriptions, and it's sad. It is sad that that has come. I get so angry when I hear, when I see this online and I hear of it, and it makes me so angry that one they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves or they don't have anyone to advocate for them. And I just would love to just say you know, question it, don't just take what they say at face value. Same thing, going back to the insurance companies, I know someone who was waiting for a hip replacement 18 months before they were able to get approved through the insurance company to get their hip replacement done. She was in pain for 18 months and, of course, because she's older, they're not going to prescribe any pain meds because of a fall risk or this or that, and I get that. But she was in pain for 18 months before they finally did the surgery. And it's horrible. It's horrible when I hear these stories and I get so angry and I'm like why? Why is that happening? It just does not make any sense.
Speaker 1:And people also don't realize that if a doctor prescribes something for you and the insurance company decides not to cover it, it doesn't mean you still can't have it. You either have to pay out of pocket, fight the insurance company or use one of those prescription apps to get it at a lower cost, because we've done that before. Something wasn't covered by the insurance. The older generation would say well, it's not covered, so I have to pay out of pocket or I have to go without. So I want people to understand there are options.
Speaker 1:If a doctor is prescribing it to you you've had that conversation with them and maybe there's no generic Find out if there's something comparable. You know we did that with my husband's prescription. You know it was X amount of dollars and it was just a brand new one. I'm like is there something comparable? Oh yeah, there is. Let me prescribe that one. You don't know until you ask. But these insurance companies, these drug companies are making so much money off of the people who are just not comfortable advocating or saying something to state their case and you have to do that.
Speaker 2:You have to do that. You have to do that. It's very profitable to keep people sick in this country. It is Whether it's through giving bad food that's going to make you sick and putting chemicals and hormones in the food so that they can prescribe medications later on for you to.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. I agree with you.
Speaker 2:It doesn't end.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Sometimes medications are needed Right, so there's no way around that.
Speaker 1:Right, but at the same time, it all goes back to what we're putting in our body. Yeah, the food supply. How many food? How many recalls have there been on food or tainted foods, or especially fresh fruits and vegetables? It's just, it's crazy. You try to eat healthy and you get sick because you're trying to eat healthy. It's crazy you try to eat healthy and you get sick because you're trying to eat healthy. It's crazy, it really is crazy. Something needs to change and I don't know how that is going to happen and I don't know if it will happen. I hope I see it in my lifetime.
Speaker 2:It's definitely going to happen Because, again, history repeats itself. There is not one time in history that this has not ended any differently, True, True. I don't know when that's going to happen, but it is going to happen. And you know the people, the higher ups, who think it's not going to happen. They're high. It may not happen in our lifetimes but it's certainly going to happen. Going to happen. I couldn't. A little bit unrelated to health care, but on the episode I think that I was talking about with how impossible it is to live in this country financially with rent and all of the utilities bills and etc. At the time I think I said connecticut was the second highest utility company. I mean it had the second highest utility rates in the country.
Speaker 2:They now are number one oh, wow because their credit rating of eversource got dropped with the better business bureau from an a minus to like a bbb or whatever. So because of that it has impacted their ability to borrow money. So they're just going to tax us even more on on the utilities to make up for it. So now our utilities are going to be the highest in the country. It's outrageous.
Speaker 1:And you wonder what goes on. I know, when they want an increase in the rates, they have to go through the Public Utilities Commission. What planet are they from agreeing to such crazy hikes throughout the year for people who are barely making it, people that are living paycheck to paycheck or just one deposit to another of just you budget, your budget, your electric bill, and you try to stay within that, but then the rates go up and it's all about the transmission rate, this and that. You look at your bill, it's like itemized. It's like you're reading an insurance thing. You owe the summary for your, your billing summary. It's crazy. It's crazy. Something has to change because people, people are, they can't do it anymore. They just can't.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile, the CEOs of the company are getting raises every year. And we're getting charged more money because they don't have the money right.
Speaker 1:When I worked for a corporate drugstore chain many years ago. I worked for 12 years for them.
Speaker 2:The devil you worked for. You worked for the devil 12 years. I worked for 12 years for them.
Speaker 1:The devil you worked for. You worked for the devil 12 years. I worked. I worked in accounting for 12 years at this big pharmacy, major pharmacy retailer, which shall not be named. But they would say, well, we can't give you a raise because you know things are tough, this, and that we can give you 1% or 2%. And it wasn't about your performance, it was about the company couldn't afford to do it. And then, right, a couple of weeks later, they would release the annual report and you would look at it and you would see the bonuses these higher-ups would get, whether it was the CEO, whether it was the board or the member. All of these stock options and bonuses that they got made me so angry yes, yes, understandable you're.
Speaker 1:You're getting this because we worked our butts off, yes, to make you look good. And what do we get? A one percent raise, a two percent raise, or told you're doing a great job, keep it up, but we really can't afford to give any raises right now. It's crazy. I used to get so angry when I left that job. I was no looking back after that. It was just I was done with corporate America and I never went back. I refuse to go back to corporate America. No.
Speaker 2:That company that she'll go unnamed is the devil. They also love to lay people off at Christmas time.
Speaker 1:Yes, they do. Yes, they do, which is wild. Most companies do. Why do they do that?
Speaker 2:Always at Christmas Because, I mean, I think practically it's because that's probably when the fiscal year ends. However, it is the worst possible thing people can do and it just shows that they don't care. They do not care about the people that work for them. They never will and they never have In a capitalistic country. They're never going to.
Speaker 1:And I think, as someone who I hold so much empathy for everything and everybody, when I see this happening to people, I get angry. But when I get angry I cry and I know you can't save the world. At the same time, it makes you more angry that these people that are doing it are so desensitized where how it's affecting the people that they know nothing about. You're just a number, whether you're a number to the insurance company, a number to your job, you're just a cog. That's it. That's all you are and it's. It's sad that that's happening more and more and more. We're seeing it more, or we're seeing it but we're reading it, or we're hearing someone who has been through it, because you don't always see it on the news. You're going to hear it from someone who has been through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, what I often tell people that I'm training in mental health services as well is that when you get to the point and this does happen in any sort of medical field, if you're any sort of health care provider If it gets to the point where you start to feel desensitized, you need to quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that should be for any job you have, especially when you're working with people. And if you get to that point where you just don't care anymore, you're just checking out, it's time to move on from that job. I totally agree with that. I totally, totally agree with that, and I felt that way with teaching. Toward the end it was just I loved it till I didn't, and you know it. Just it was the culture of, of they, just the administration, it was just everything. It was just that kind of thing. It wasn't fun anymore, it wasn't. It was more of a us against them. Sometimes and any time, you get to that point where you're not feeling like you're making a difference or that you care it's time to move on. It really is. You never get to that point where you're just numb for doing your job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to give one more example of something that I used to see United do all the time, and this is an addiction treatment when I worked in residential. It is common for residential treatment to require detox before you go in, even if you're not, even if you're actively sober or even if you haven't used recently, just because it's a way to one make sure the person doesn't have something in their system that we can't pick up or that there isn't any sort of underlying health issue. So they go to detox and they get cleared, usually like three to five days later, and then they can go into residential. It's pretty standard, it's part of the requirement. What would happen then?
Speaker 2:Because in order to be at the time I don't know what it's like now because I don't work in residential now but at the time, in order to qualify for residential, you had to be having a difficult time staying sober outside of a structured environment, so you had to be continuing to struggle with addiction. Now, when you go to detox, if you're in detox for three to five days, you were then considered sober for three to five days. So then united would say well, they're now sober, so they don't meet the requirements to be in residential. Oh wow, but that was the requirement to get into residential and this was like an argument we would have all the time and they would try to deny it. But well then, they're sober, they don't need residential. It's just this kind of spinning circle of like how do we find ways to deny services?
Speaker 1:You wonder who makes up this stuff Are they sitting in a room just saying you know, let's do this, let's do that, what can we make it harder? What can we not pay for? And you know that's happening. Oh, 100%. I ran into this In every insurance company.
Speaker 2:I ran into the same thing with pet insurance. I have pet insurance on one of the cats Actually, I have pet insurance on two of the cats now and I remember when she had to get dental work done, they wanted paperwork that before I owned her and I said I don't have paper. I mean, I got her when she was a kitten and I got her from a rescue, so I only had the information that the rescue came from and they were like, well, we want the paperwork before that. There is no paperwork before that, oh my God. And then they tried to deny it and I had to fight with them nonstop and then they were finally like, okay, well, we'll cover it. Well, that's why I have full coverage on the cat. You shouldn't be paying for it anyway.
Speaker 1:I think any insurance will do their best to try to get out of paying something and they want to see how far you're going to go. You want to see how far you're going to go.
Speaker 2:Speaking of which, I have to say this because this pisses me off so bad.
Speaker 2:I recently had a car accident, right before I went to Italy, where somebody rear-ended me and normally I would have let it go, but the woman was so rude to me, the woman that hit me.
Speaker 2:I mean, she was rude and she was obnoxious, and there was damage to the car, but again it was minor damage. Normally I would have let it go, but because she basically was so awful, I said fine, I'm just going to file a claim. So she has USAA and I was going through them because obviously I went through mine and have a deductible. When I tell you, it took three weeks, three weeks for the adjuster to actually call me back at a time that I gave her that I was available, because she would either not call me back or she would say I'll call you back during these hours, and then she would call me, like off hours or whatever. And I even have a voice message where she said I'll call you tomorrow between these hours and she never called. And it finally gets to the point because, again, weeks are going by now and they haven't even done an estimate.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:So I finally called and I spoke to and I would leave voice messages and I would say here's my email, so email me, because I'm in and out of sessions all day long so I can give you whatever you need via email. Nope, wouldn't email me, wouldn't email me, wouldn't email me. I finally got to the point where I had to call and say listen, I'm going to. You need to call me today. Or what's going to happen is I'm going to have to go to the insurance commission and file a complaint, because I think three weeks is a reasonable time to get an estimate. So then she calls me back the next day and she's like oh, there's an app you can just take pictures of oh my, oh, I'm not even kidding and you can upload the pictures and then we'll just give you an estimate.
Speaker 2:And no one ever told you this, never said a word until I said I was going to file a complaint.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good to know, because we have USAA, so that's good to know. Oh wait, no wait.
Speaker 2:It gets worse.
Speaker 2:So, I take all the pictures and then I submit the pictures and within 24 hours they send me back. Now this is, I guess, a different part of the system. They sent me back the details of the claim and what they're going to pay. So I called her and I left a message and I said you know exactly that. I said, hey, they gave me this estimate, but they sent me paperwork. It looks like I have to sign it, but it also looks like I have to come up with what shop I'm going to send it to.
Speaker 2:Can you please clarify that? She calls me up and she leaves me a message and she said so, we already paid you for the claim and you know you can just take it wherever you want to. So I'm like you paid me for the claim. I'm like, no, you didn't, you would have to sign something Like how did you? Like? You didn't pay me for the claim. So I call her back and I leave her a message and I said can you please clarify? Can you please call me to clarify, because you didn't send me a check or you didn't pay me. I don't know if this means you're going to send a check. I don't know what I need to sign. Can you please call me back? And, donna, she left me a message. I saved it On the message she started off with do not call me back again. That's how she started off the message. And she said we, we're gonna put a check in the mail for you. Again. I repeat do not call me again.
Speaker 1:She said it three times on my voice message but you have to sign something to be able to accept that, don't you?
Speaker 2:I have no idea because she told me not to call her again. And when I tell you I was talking to her exactly the way that I'm talking to you, I mean I wasn't yelling, I wasn't rude, I was basically just like. I need clarity on this because I don't know if I'm supposed to sign this. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I have never had somebody leave me a message to say three times do not call me back.
Speaker 1:Oh my, not surprised, but still I am surprised, so the minute I get horrible.
Speaker 2:So that when I get my check, I am certainly going to write that review on their website with her name and leave exactly what happened, because that is unacceptable behavior, absolutely unacceptable.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 2:They treat people like garbage.
Speaker 1:Again, like you said, it's not just the health insurance companies, it's the auto insurance companies, it's everything. It's the workers' compensation insurance companies, it's all the companies that have to do with insurance, insurance companies, it's all the companies that have to do with insurance. And you wonder? I mean, we know that lobbyists are in Washington. You know lobbying these?
Speaker 2:politicians, and you wonder if that has a lot to do with it. The politicians have stopped working for us decades ago.
Speaker 1:Oh, most definitely, I agree 100%.
Speaker 2:To go back to what I said about Connecticut earlier, part of the reason why the rates keep going up is the same politicians have been in office for, I think, 15, 16 plus years and they are in Eversource's back pocket and they don't care how it's affecting the people. I mean, I've only moved here two and a half years ago and I'm ready to move out.
Speaker 1:I'm glad to know about Connecticut. Rhode Island's not much better, unfortunately. All of our health care is in Massachusetts and when I was shopping around for a new medical plan, I made sure I called my doctor. Okay, these are the two plans I can choose from. Which one do you take? I wanted to make sure because I wanted to stay with my doctor and you hope that nothing changes, but it's like, oh my goodness, you have to really do your due diligence.
Speaker 2:And that's why it's so important, because you know again, as a private practitioner, clients change insurance every year and in Rhode Island I take most insurances but there are some that I don't take and a client will call me up and say I'm switching to this insurance. Well, I don't accept that insurance, but I'll still see you, it's just going to. I'm just going to have to take it as a loss, because people really undervalue how important it is to have a provider that you connect with.
Speaker 1:Exactly, especially for mental health.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Especially for mental health. When you can find a provider especially mental health that you can connect with, you don't want to leave them. You really don't, because you poured yourself into that therapeutic relationship and you don't want to have to start over again. You really don't, because you poured yourself into that therapeutic relationship and you don't want to have to start over again. You really don't.
Speaker 2:One more. This is my final story about United, by the way, because again, they're the only ones who did this, so I mean none of the other insurance companies did this. There was one point in time where they renegotiated the rates for couples and family counseling. Now, if you think about it, if you're doing couples or if you're doing family counseling, you're actually doing more work, because you have to work with more individuals, you have to write more notes. There's a lot more that goes into it. They changed the reimbursement rate for families and couple sessions to $37 an hour.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:You're kidding me? No, I'm dead serious. They almost cut it. It was more than half of what they were paying and I don't know why they did that. But of course at that point in time people were like nope, no more families and couples with United, because it was $37 is what they were paying.
Speaker 1:That's terrible, that's insulting.
Speaker 2:Then there was another time where they were actually and I always get it confused because they go through Optum. So some of it, you know, optum owns, I think, part of it. So some of it I might be, it might be Optum, some of it might be United.
Speaker 1:But then the other thing they were trying to charge us for billing.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's like what you're going to charge us to bill you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here's some food, but I'm going to charge you for eating it before you pay for it, exactly like they. Yeah, you know so they are not um.
Speaker 2:I'm not surprised, no, I'm not surprised.
Speaker 1:What's happening is happening and it's and it's like collectively, something needs to be done, but it has to happen in numbers and you, we, we hope that it happens in this lifetime. I don't see that happening in this lifetime, unfortunately. I hope I do because things need to change, because it's affecting us. I think at each stage and phase that we go through in life, it affects us in a different way, like maybe when I was in my 30s, I wouldn't have cared about the price of what Medicare would be or this or that, but now that I'm at that point, I do care because it is affecting me directly. So even if it may not affect you directly, you should still care about it because it's going to affect you at some point.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is one thing that everybody has in common. I don't care if you have money or you don't have money, or what group you associate with is. Everybody is aging.
Speaker 1:We are.
Speaker 2:You can't get away from that.
Speaker 1:Whether we want to or not, we're all aging.
Speaker 2:I mean we can lie about it, get away from that.
Speaker 1:Whether we want to or not, we're all aging. I mean we can lie about it. I can well. I sometimes I can lie about it, but people don't believe that I'm 61. But you know I am I don't believe you're 61 I am, I'm 61. People say you I'm like, I feel like I'm 80, but you know 61, you know proud 61. I hurt like heck when I was 61. And I guess I just got good genes. Maybe I don't know Good genes in certain areas but not good genes in other areas.
Speaker 2:And again.
Speaker 1:The insurance company will hold that against you.
Speaker 2:Oh, of course. Of course there was a blood disorder. No, what is the name of it? There's some sort of blood issue that my dad had that I could get genetic testing for to see if I have it, but I don't remember what it is. I can't. It's some sort of clotting thing, but anyway. So basically the insurance company said, yeah, we'll pay for it when you have a stroke, but until then we won't pay for it. It'll cost five grand. I'm like, okay, cool, well, guess what? I'm not getting it done.
Speaker 1:So imagine if the insurance companies allowed everyone at one point in their life to get genetic testing when they're ill and they can't find what's wrong. We all need a doctor house in our lives I know I do. But if they would do the genetic testing to find out what is missing or what is wrong, I mean it would just be so helpful. But unfortunately we live in a society that, unless you're broken, we can't do something to help you fix it. But if we were to help you fix it, you'd have to really be more broken than what you are now.
Speaker 1:No, it's sad. It's sad the horror stories I have from dealing with insurance companies and medical and doctors who just don't give a crap. It's sad and it goes all the way downhill. And it's not just insurance companies. I've had some really great doctors and I've had some doctors that I left there crying because they made me feel so insignificant. And it's just like you said if you don't enjoy what you're doing anymore, leave, exactly, do something different. Wow, you know, and it's just like you said, if you don't enjoy what you're doing anymore leave leave.
Speaker 1:Exactly Do something different.
Speaker 2:Wow Well, thank you Donna.
Speaker 1:See, that wasn't so bad.
Speaker 2:No, I know Such a. I mean it had to be talked about. I think we have to keep talking about it as a culture. Yeah, I know we do. It has to change. We cannot continue to function by being oppressed and poor and having none of our needs met over and over and over again, before people snap. And people are snapping.
Speaker 1:If you're snapping, get mental health, don't take it upon yourselves to hurt someone else because you're hurting. Try to find a different way to do it, a way that's not going to hurt you or someone else. That's what I feel feel about it. So, even though we have differing views on it was still the same at the end of the day right?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, I'm not advocating for somebody to kill somebody.
Speaker 2:All I'm saying is that there comes a point when yeah if you're, if you're doing everything you just said so like if you're going to mental health counseling, and if you're you're like taking medications and you're changing stuff in your life and you're calling your politicians and you're doing X, y and Z and everything is failing you, at some point in time people are going to snap. And I get it. I understand it. I'm not saying it's a I don't. I wish it didn't have to happen, but it just. It goes back to the quote I said. The JFK said like when you, when you prevent people from doing stuff, eventually it's going to become violent.
Speaker 1:And again, being your own advocate for what you need and making your voice heard, and don't stop talking about it. Don't stop. Don't be silenced, don't be silenced. Someone said not to say anything, or someone said we can't help you, or this is how it is and you have to deal with it. Use your voice for good, use your voice for change. This is how it is and you have to deal with it. Use your voice for good, use your voice for change, and that's only then will things start to change.
Speaker 2:Collectively, we can do a lot. If you can be your own advocate, be your own advocate. But if you can't, maybe there's somebody in your life that can be an advocate for you where you can call upon them, and actually social media is a great place for this. You know, call upon them and and actually social media is a great place for this. I just saw a video the other day where there was I think it was a, I think it was either a lawyer or it was some sort of billing person who said if an insurance company denies you, instead of appealing it, ask for a fair hearing review, because they have to give you a fair hearing review and they almost always side with the the patient at that time most people probably don't know this.
Speaker 2:Because it's outside of the insurance company that does it. But the insurance company will try to be like no, no, no, do an appeal, but the appeal is internal and if they deny it the first time, exactly you know, go outside.
Speaker 1:I like when I see people helping other people for things that they didn't know about Exactly Because that was an option for them, and there should be more of that. I believe that in social media should be really something positive. You know, social media is great it's. It's unfortunately how some people perceive it, but at the same time, if you can help other people by giving information and I'm all about giving information if I've learned something and I think someone else could benefit from it, I'm going to share it. So if more people did that, then maybe people would know that there are more tools in their tool belt to be able to handle certain situations.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you again, donna. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you for coming back, thank you for having me, and can you say the name of your podcast one more time? The name of my podcast is called Healing Our Kindred Spirits and it's available on any podcast platform that you listen to.
Speaker 2:Thank you again.
Speaker 1:And the next episode should be coming out next week.
Speaker 2:And let me know if you want me to talk on that, about anything too. Absolutely. Thank you again everybody for listening, and if you could leave like a five-star review, or for me as well, that would be great. Or if you could share the podcast with other people, that would also be great. Or if you could share the podcast with other people, that would also be great, and if you could share Donna's, that would be fantastic. So thank you everybody, and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
