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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 3 E: 7 From Trauma to Triumph: A Police Officer's Story
How does a seasoned police officer navigate the mental health challenges that come with the job? Captain Adam Myers, an officer with over two decades of experience, opens up about his journey through trauma and recovery in the latest episode of United States of PTSD. He takes us on a gripping ride through the aftermath of a critical incident where he was forced to use deadly force, sharing the emotional turmoil and complexities of such life-altering events. Adam's story is not just about the incident itself but also about the unhealthy coping mechanisms it triggered and his eventual path to healing.
Throughout this compelling episode, we explore the broader themes of mental health in law enforcement, particularly the stigma that surrounds it in male-dominated professions. Adam candidly discusses his struggles with addiction and self-harm, shedding light on the destructive behaviors that often follow traumatic experiences. His journey serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of therapy, medication, and open communication in overcoming these barriers. With the help of a supportive friend, Amy, Adam found his way back to a healthier state of mind, highlighting the pivotal role of compassionate leadership and peer support in fostering a supportive environment for officers.
Listeners will gain insights into the evolving perceptions of law enforcement and the public scrutiny officers face, which adds another layer to their mental health challenges. This episode is a call to action for open discussions about mental health, encouraging both officers and the public to approach these conversations with empathy and understanding. Join us for an eye-opening exploration of the mental health struggles faced by first responders, and learn how we can all contribute to a culture of support and awareness.
From Capt Meyers:
The Aftermath: My Life after a Critical Incident
My name is Adam and I have been a Police Officer in Wisconsin for 23 years. I am also a Certified Peer Specialist in Wisconsin. I began my law enforcement career in 2001 after serving as an active duty United States Army Military Policeman. In April 2016, I was involved in a critical incident that changed my life forever when I used deadly force on someone who armed themselves with a hatchet inside a busy department store. This person died.
I suffered in silence for many years after my critical incident and I am ashamed for the ways I poorly coped. I still feel shame for the ways I coped and treated people. I find it hard to believe that nobody realized or even had a gut feeling that I was not doing well. I could not have been that good at hiding my poor coping strategies, or was I? I have always wondered if people were slowly watching me self-destruct because they did not know what to say to me, how to help me, or they simply did not want to get involved.
It has taken me many years to get back on track. There are many different coping strategies people may use after experiencing trauma. They may be good and healthy, or they may be bad and unhealthy. My coping strategies were bad, unhealthy, self-destructive, and dangerous. I used alcohol, marijuana, casual sex, and self-harm as some of my poor coping strategies for years after my critical incident.
My poor
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Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency. Hello everybody, Welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. This is Matt, and I am privileged to have a guest speaker with me today. Captain Myers, If you could introduce yourself, that would be fantastic.
Speaker 2:Thank you, matt. My name is Adam Myers. I'm a police officer, actually a police captain and I've been in law enforcement for 23 years.
Speaker 1:And you have quite a powerful story about the impact of mental health on I'm just going to use the term first responder because I know obviously it happens with police officers, but it happens with firefighters and EMTs and, I think, anything that falls under that category. You have an incredibly powerful story. As I said, I read it a couple of times and I mean personally. I think you're a role model for what we would like to see mental health look like in the realm of first responders. Could you tell, if you don't mind, could you tell your story about what happened and kind of where it went?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I'll start from the beginning. You know, as far back as I can remember, I've always wanted to be a police officer and when I was a little boy I lived in the city of Racine, which is a city in Wisconsin, and I lived on Highway 20, which is also Washington Avenue, one of the main thoroughfares in and out of the city of Racine, and you know, police cars, ambulances, fire trucks would fly by the house. So I'd quickly run up to the window and look outside to see if I saw a police car, because that's what I was interested in more than the ambulance or the fire trucks. And my parents said that the first time I saw a police car go by, I called it an ER car because of the sirens. So I was like it's an ER car, an ER car, you know. So you know my parents said that I saw a police officer get out of a police vehicle, a squad car, the very first time. I was just in awe and I looked at them and I said an ER car man, an ER car man. And I, from as far back as I can remember, I wanted to grow up and be an ER car man, which was a police officer, which I did. So I took several steps that I thought would help me do that, you know graduate from high school, graduate from college, go into the military. And then I was actually hired by the city of Racine, my hometown, as my first police job. So it was great, you know, I was a police officer for the city that I've lived, worked and played all my entire life, you know, and so it was pretty good. And so I moved up north. I was married at the time and I moved up north and worked in a community between two larger communities and in 2016, april 8th 2016, I was involved in a critical incident. I used deadly force against somebody who armed themselves with a hatchet inside our Walmart store.
Speaker 2:So I was at the police department working on a retail theft report and I get dispatched to Walmart and it was just the basic call. There were two chaperones inside Walmart with one of their clients that were refusing to leave the store and they wanted assistance from police to respond and help them do that. And we get calls like that all the time. We get calls to residences, restaurants, retail stores, you name it. So it wasn't that big of a deal. It wasn't emergent by any means. I wasn't thinking that, you know, a few minutes later I'd be shooting somebody. It just seemed like just a basic, normal call. So while I was responding, dispatch notified me and they kind of kept this. One of the chaperones contacted 911 and they kept them on the 911 line. So they kept updating me as to what was going on in Walmart and they told me that you know, this client is continuing to refuse to leave the store and now they're going back to the sporting goods section where she ripped open a hatchet from the package and then she was walking around the store damaging merchandise and threatening customers.
Speaker 2:So I arrived at Walmart and I made contact with her in the health and beauty aisle it was one of the main aisles and you know it was Friday 5.15 pm. There was hundreds of people in the store. It was a very busy Friday evening and I remember making multiple verbal commands for her to stop and drop the hatchet. She just wouldn't listen to me. I couldn't believe she wasn't listening to me and she kept walking towards me and eventually I shot her twice and she fell to the ground and several hours later she died after surgery. It's my understanding that she had some internal bleeding and they couldn't stop the bleeding and then, unfortunately, she passed away. And you know, I didn't find out about that until the next day, after everything was done at Walmart and the police department.
Speaker 2:On that Friday I went home and the first thing I remember doing was walking in my front door and kneeling down next to my love seat and praying to God that she wouldn't die. And I didn't want her to die, I didn't want to shoot her. I know I did the right thing. I don't have any regrets. I haven't second guessed myself, but it's just not something. I woke up thinking, hey, I want to shoot somebody today. That's just not. It's not me. And I know, when you become a police officer, is it a possibility? Sure, but is it probable? Maybe not, probably not. You know there's police officers that go their entire career without shooting somebody. Well, I, I happened to be one that that ended up shooting somebody, and and the next day, Adam, how, um, how, cause you had just started, right.
Speaker 1:So like how long were you on the police force at this point, Was it?
Speaker 2:I had been with that police department for, I want to say, 12 or 13 years.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was that long Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. I had been with that department for for quite some time and um, so you know the the following day I wanted to stick to some kind of normalcy in my in my routine and my schedule. I had the weekend off. They gave me the weekend off and I thought to myself I'm going to go pick up my daughter from my ex-wife's house, I'm going to go get a haircut, something normal. I wanted to kind of stick to what I knew, because I was stressed, lots of anxiety, lots of unknowns, and I was worried.
Speaker 2:And then the chief called me and the reason why he called me was he wanted to meet with me in person as soon as possible. And the reason why is because he got word that the person I shot had died and when I told him I wasn't sure how quickly I could come in and speak with him. He told me on the phone that you know she had died, and the reason why he did that was he didn't want me to find out through social media or the news media. And I really appreciate that. And you know, later on in the day I did go and speak with him and but after that it just slowly, progressively, got worse for my poor coping.
Speaker 1:Adam, do you think you were? Because when you're telling the story and this is so true of PTSD you have very vivid details about it and you remember, like what aisle it was, you remember what time it was. Like you remember all these details. Do you do you think as part of your training, do they do enough to prepare you for for situations like that, like how to deal with it afterwards?
Speaker 2:My guess is probably not right, cause I don't think so, and the reason why I don't think so is because everybody responds different, differently to stress and anxiety and depression and PTSD and all that. They train us very well here in Wisconsin with use of force and they train you when to use it, when not to use it, all the different levels of force. And that's so important, also because there's a lot that I don't remember. You know, walmart has many cameras throughout the retail store and I watched myself on camera doing what I was trained to do but not remembering certain things. I could look at the camera and say, yeah, that's me, that's me doing that, that's me stepping backward and shooting and doing this, that and the other thing, but I don't remember that.
Speaker 2:So that's why training is so important and it's so important for for first responders um, because you bring up a great.
Speaker 1:You bring up a great point. By the way, I worked with somebody who actually witnessed a person die in front of them. They were, they were kind of involved not directly, but they were involved in it and their memory was they saw the person get up and walk away, even though the person was dead. Right, and the mind does all these intense things to protect us so that we don't have to deal with what's happening at the moment. So that's so normal. Everything you're talking about is so normal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's many things that I don't remember. All the witnesses at Walmart they remember she was walking towards me and the last thing she did was lunge at me and raise the hatchet above her head. Well, the last thing I remember is her walking towards me making this figure eight, swooshing kind of movement with the hatchet. I don't remember her lunging and putting the hatchet above her head and it's been almost nine years and I still don't remember that. But everybody else watched it and said, yep, that's what happened. So you know, I'm not a psychologist, I don't know everything about the brain, but I hear that you know, your brain protects you from and to this day I don't remember that. I don't have flashbacks of her lunging or raising the hatchet above her head. I don't have nightmares. So, yeah, that part of the brain it's been protecting me, which I'm grateful for. But yeah, I mean it's just everything changed.
Speaker 2:Once the chief told me that she had died and I remember thinking this changes everything. I actually killed somebody. Now, now what, and I understand the totality of it all and it was a tragic event. It truly was, and I know I did the right thing, but pulling the trigger when I pulled the trigger, I know I changed not only my life but her life, the people in Walmart who witnessed it, people who may have just heard the gunshots. I changed many lives by making that decision and I know I made the right decision. But you know she was a mother to a young daughter, a six-year-old daughter, and you know she was somebody's daughter. She was somebody's granddaughter and cousin and I don't take that lightly.
Speaker 2:It's sad, it really is sad and I think about it every single day. I don't cope the way I used to. I'm healthy now. It's taken me many, many years to learn from all those failures and poor coping, but I do think about her almost every single day, if not the shooting every single day. But I'm doing better with with those thoughts, which is which is good. It's all about healing.
Speaker 1:So and I know you use the term poor coping and when I read the biography the um, like the biography that you sent me that came up a lot. I think I want to say that when, when you have a situation like this, it is so outside the norm that there really isn't a textbook on how to cope with it, so there is no right or wrong way. So I think that's important to know because people do get stuck in the kind of beating themselves up about hey, I should have had better coping skills, but again, you're not prepared for this. This isn't a daily, normal event.
Speaker 2:Right and I coped many different ways. One way that I coped is I abused alcohol. I coped many different ways. One way that I coped is I abused alcohol, and what I mean by abusing alcohol is I would drink like a 750 milliliter thing of vodka in less than 30 minutes Wow. And I would mix that with sleeping medicine, allergy medicine, anything I could mix up in there just to numb what I was feeling and kind of a quick fix to try to make it all go away. And one time I even took my daughter's prescribed coughing medicine that had codeine in it. It was left over and I dumped that in my wine glass and I drank that.
Speaker 2:Other ways that I coped was casual sex. I would meet women online strictly to to have sex and and for me sex feels great, it's fun, it's exciting, it's playful, all that stuff. So that was a quick fix. But I was always worried and stressed that what if I I catch an STD? What if I get her pregnant? You know, even though I was wearing protection, I was still worried about that. But not enough not to do it. And there was one time where I was laying in bed with a woman after we had sex and I'm laying there and I didn't like myself. I remember thinking what are you doing, adam?
Speaker 1:What are you doing? This isn't working for you.
Speaker 2:And you know, another way also is I tried marijuana for the first time and I always prided myself that I'd never done drugs. And you know, some people think that's not a big deal. You did marijuana, but it's. It's a big deal to me. I, before my shooting, I cared about these things. After I didn't care. I wanted a quick fix. I wanted to feel good, I wanted it to go away, even if it was momentarily. So I tried a marijuana gummy. I smoked on a bowl, but I don't even remember being high because I was so intoxicated all the time that. But did I do it? Yeah, absolutely I.
Speaker 2:I drank and drove one of my, my. I would rationalize that it would take about 30 minutes for alcohol to kick in. So I would stop at a gas station or a convenience store and buy these little shooters of cinnamon whiskey and drink two or three of those in my car before I would drive somewhere, throw them out the window while I'm driving wherever I'm going, or throw them in the back of my car and just rationalize by the time I get where I have to be, then the alcohol would kick in. That's wrong. I could have killed wrong. I could have killed somebody. I could have crashed. It's just not. I just didn't care and I don't cope that way now, but that's how I coped for many years.
Speaker 1:And it really took a toll on me Something you said and this is more for the listeners that I, because a lot of people you know who don't know about mental health, particularly with addiction or substance use because substance addiction is actually my specialty, addiction treatment is people will think or ask questions like why would somebody use drugs? Why would somebody use alcohol? I have never met anybody in my life in the 20 years of 25 plus years that I've been doing this work that did not have some level of trauma before they started using it. One of the things you said was it made the pain go away. Right, you didn't have to think about it and that's you know on some levels, like how can you fault people for not wanting to feel pain?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I agree I. You know, before my shooting I drank wine. I collected wine and um, but then after my shooting I went through the bottles of wine that I had like very quickly and then I went to liquor because it got me where I wanted to go quicker. You know, I didn't have to drink as much and um, you know. Another way I coped, I guess you would say, is self-harm.
Speaker 2:There was one time I planned this before I even got to work. I was in the shower thinking, you know, I don't feel like going to work today, but I can't keep saying I can't be there because of my shooting. So I got to come up with something different and what I had done was I had planned, while I'm driving to the police department there was a Burger King. So I went through Burger King, bought a whole bunch of breakfast foods in the drive-thru and a couple of orange juices binged to eat that, washed it all down and then also hit up a McDonald's on the way to the police department too. And once I got to the police department I walked in and kind of played the sick employee and made sure everybody knew I wasn't feeling well, which was all just a bunch of BS and I went into the bathroom and let people know that I was in the bathroom, kept the door open a little bit and made myself throw up and intentionally not hit the toilet, so, you know, to add to the whole drama of being sick, and they sent me home right away. I'm ashamed of that because that's just a big lie and it was completely against the kind of it just goes against who I am.
Speaker 2:And you know, there was even one time that I didn't want to work on the 4th of July and I used a 12-inch wrench and I hit my knee a bunch of times, just enough, so there's redness, abrasions and I went into urgent care, the emergency room, showed the doctor, the doctor did x-rays, gave me pain meds, gave me a doctor's excuse and even crutches. And I got all to work on the 4th of July weekend just because I was stressed and triggered by something. And I lied to my chief. I love that guy.
Speaker 2:That guy supported me through my shooting, was there for me from the beginning and I bold-faced, lied to him and said I fell down my back steps and landed on a manhole cover on my knee and that's, that's just so I could get out of not working. I I did so many things that I wouldn't have done before my shooting after, because I just didn't care. I was selfish, I was worried about myself, I wanted to feel better, I wanted the pain to go away and ultimately, it didn't do any of that. It just caused more problems, caused me more depression, more anxiety, and I'm very lucky to be where I am today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and thank you for sharing that, adam. I really appreciate that. And again, more, more, for, like the people who are listening, there is such a stigma with men and you know there's. There's a stigma with mental health, particularly with the first responder community and a predominantly male run community as well. Right, that there's this and I'm not, you know, like excusing the stuff that you're talking about, but again, the motivation behind all that stuff is just to not be in pain and survive, right? So I mean, if you can look at it objectively, not just for you but for other people who might be struggling, is that you know, subjectively they're poor coping skills, right, but in the moment, if somebody is that much in pain and they just don't want to feel pain and they want to protect themselves, that's all they know, right? So it's not, it's not necessarily as black and white to say like it's a it's a bad thing, because in the moment it's it's not, it, it's fixing your knee, it's fixing that pain, right, right exactly, and that's that's what my therapist says too.
Speaker 2:Every every monday at 5 pm, I'm sitting on a couch talking to my therapist. I still see one today. I wake up every morning, go to the bathroom, take a 20 milligram lexapro pill and a multivitamin. You know talk therapy and leapro, that all that all helps me. I you know. And so what really got me? What really got me is I was at a active shooter training in December of 2021.
Speaker 1:And how far was that from the actual incident, like what was the time?
Speaker 2:That was five years years, about five years after. So I was at active shooter training and we were. We were seated comfortably and we were watching a powerpoint. We were going all over all the different active shooters that occurred in the united states over the years and even, you know, overseas, and we kept going to active shooting events that occurred in april and they kept saying April, april, april, and that's when my shooting happened. So I was getting a knot in my stomach, I got really, really hot and I started sweating and after about a minute I went up to wipe my forehead and it was drenched in water. I was having a panic attack and there was probably about 25 other police officers in that room and they all knew me. They all knew that I had been involved in a shooting. But my first instinct was to hide it. I can't let anybody know this is going on. I got to fight through it, I got to hide it but honestly, it probably would have been okay if I would have just raised my hand and said, hey, I can't do this. They understood, they knew what I went through. It would have been okay, but my first instinct was to fight it and to hide it, and I did.
Speaker 2:That went on a couple of days off and then I was a detective at the time and I worked a patrol shift New Year's Eve 2021. And I went into work and I sat down in my squad car and I thought you know what, forget it. I quit, I ain't doing this, no more. And I chatted my sergeant and I said I need you to meet with me, I need you to come in and I can't do this anymore. I need you to come with me to talk to the chief. And he met with me and came in my squad car and said you're not quitting, let's go and let's go talk to the chief. And we went and talked to the chief and he supported me and said yeah, you're not quitting. You know, go home and we'll figure things out. And they were very supportive. And I want to say about three weeks passed and the chief said the only way you can come back is you got to have a psychological evaluation. And I was all for it.
Speaker 2:You know I started speaking about my experience in 2019. I'm a strong mental health advocate. I'm like, yeah, let's get the psychological evaluation done so I can get back to work. But when I was driving there. The evaluation was scheduled from 9 am until 4 pm, and when I was driving there, I was thinking about all kinds of stuff. But one thing I was thinking of is I'm going to lie, I'm going to beat this test. I'm not going to be honest, I'm going to lie, I'm going to beat this test. I'm not going to be honest, I'm going to fight it, and then I'm going to get back to work. So I'm sitting in the waiting room.
Speaker 1:Before you finish, can I ask you just one question with that? Where do you think that came from? Like, where do you think the desire to not be honest? Is that something that was part of the culture of where you were?
Speaker 2:Is that something that? No, I think it. I think it has a lot to do with the stigma, the stigma associated with mental health, especially in law enforcement and first responding, first responders, and I also think it maybe internally, it's like I can do this, I don't need to go. You know, I've been coping poorly for years but I've still been doing okay. I, you know, I haven't been disciplined, I haven't been suspended, I've been getting awards and stuff like that. So I'm just going to lie about this. It's just, I'm going to beat it and go back to work, because I want to go back to work, I want to prove that I'm okay. So I'm sitting in the waiting room and I thought to myself you know what, adam, the only way that you're going to get better and the only way that you're going to get healthy is if you're honest. You have to be honest. So I decided to be honest and I, I went through all the testing and then, once it was done, I received the printout and I'm reading through this multi-page you know, psychological evaluation I started crying. It's, this is me. This is why I acted the way I have been acting over the years and coping the way I have been and you know I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder, ptsd, acute stress with dissociative features, and I saw that, those test results as answers. Now I'm thinking what do I got to do to get better? Now I have the answers, what I got to do to get better. So I went to the police department. We provided that to the police department, the psychological eval, and then I requested a 90-day leave of absence, which was approved, and then I was in therapy two, three times a week. I did some biofeedback therapy, talk therapy, emdr. It was all really helpful, really helpful. Talk therapy, emdr was all really helpful, really helpful. And EMDR was really helpful because it made me realize that for some reason I was thinking I wasn't good enough. I was thinking that because I shot her I wasn't good enough. I said before that I prided myself with being able to talk people down and not ever teasing or not ever using pepper spray or using my baton on anybody. But this time I had to shoot somebody. I had no other choice and but for whatever reason, I saw that as a failure, like I'm not good enough, so I had to shoot her. And that's not the case. But I learned that through EMDR and you know, it's just.
Speaker 2:It was such a traumatic event, it was such a struggle and I really wanted to go back to work. The psychologist said he recommended six months of short-term disability and you know, once the 90-day leave of absence was approved, I didn't get any kind of pay. I didn't get workers' compensation, I didn't get disability pay. I had to apply for unemployment and that was upsetting because for years I pay health insurance in case something like this happens so I can have the help financially. And I got nothing. Unemployment got me $300 a week. I struggled with my bills, my credit number, you know credit. It all just took a huge dump and it was horrible. And I have no doubt in my mind that if I would have broken a leg, broken an arm, injured myself physically and it wasn't mental health that I would have been paid.
Speaker 1:You're probably correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I just I didn't understand that and it was such, it was such a, it was so frustrating. And so after, after my 90 day leave leave, my absence was up, I had a meeting with with the chief and he advised me that they weren't extending my leave of absence and he said I have an option I can either resign or they're going to terminate me. And he literally had two one termination form, one letter and one resignation letter. And I thought about it and I said I'm not resigning, this is work related. I'm not resigning. So I was terminated and I was walked out of the but doesn't?
Speaker 1:but doesn't that feed into the the stigma, right? So here you are, doing everything you possibly should be doing. You're getting counseling, you're getting EMJ, you're taking medication and doing everything you need to do. You take a leave of absence and then you get fired for it, right?
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, with with an opportunity to resign. Why would I resign at that time? I had worked for them for 14 years. I love being a cop, you know, like my story.
Speaker 1:I wanted to grow up and be an ERCAR man.
Speaker 2:That's all I ever wanted to do and now I'm doing it and now I'm getting terminated. I remember walking out the police department, being escorted out and driving away thinking what now? I felt like I was ghosted. They literally washed their hands of me, saying Adam's not our problem anymore. What if I would have went home and killed myself? Nobody followed up, Nobody checked up on me and I don't know how you do that.
Speaker 1:That's disturbing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know how you do that, I don't know what the answer is to that, but that's, in my eyes, that's just wrong. My lifelong goal was to be a police officer and then I feel like I was just kind of, you know, cut loose and hey, you're, you don't work here anymore, not our problem, goodbye. And nobody texts me, nobody called me, no people I worked with for 14 years that went on life and death calls people who helped me move, people who knew my kids. It's a horrible feeling.
Speaker 1:You know I can't, I can't imagine. I mean it sounds really awful. But something you didn't do which I may have done, it If that happened to me. But something you didn't do which I may have done If that happened to me. I may have said to myself I should have just lied. But you didn't do that. You actually continued to make positive changes, like you did not let that set you back. I agree with you. It's horrible the fact that you have these colleagues and friends who did not seem to even have the humanity to reach out and say are you alive, are you okay?
Speaker 2:Like do you need anything? Right? And one of the biggest things, one of the biggest decisions I made several months later I think it was in September of that year, after being terminated, maybe six, nine months after is all these co-workers were friends on my Facebook account and I'm thinking, okay, they're supposedly my friends. Nobody's reaching out, are they just monitoring and seeing what I'm doing? And not even a simple hey, buddy, how you doing? I miss you Nothing. So I ended up deleting and blocking everybody, I'm like, you're not my friend.
Speaker 2:If you were my friend, you would have sent me a simple text or something. I feel like I was just abandoned. Like I said, I had never been disciplined, I had never been suspended. I received multiple awards at the police department, state citations, awards through the police association and then all of a sudden, it's just like you can resign or be terminated. I couldn't believe it. And this wasn't the same chief that was with me at the time of my shooting. That chief had retired, but it's I just. I'm at a loss because I absolutely loved working there. I really, truly did, and to go through that, it's to say it's horrible, is putting it lightly. I mean I don't have words to put on what happened to me. I was devastated.
Speaker 1:Well, it's multi-layered too, because I mean, here you are being vulnerable with something that's like a tragedy that happened and in your most vulnerable moment, the people that are supposed to be supporting you turn their back on you. That's a big deal.
Speaker 2:And one thing that also happened is when I was on my leave of absence, one of the sergeants came out to my house and I lived outside of the community where I was a detective. He came out to my house and gave me an order, a written order, to immediately cease and desist. Speaking about my mental health, my personal mental health, when it in regards to my shooting and I have I mean you can't see it, but I mean I have a copy of it right here and it says you know, if you don't follow this, you could be disappointed or terminated. And I had been speaking since 2019 and there was never an issue. And now, all of a sudden, here's an order. You need to stop doing that, because it reflects negatively on the police department. I'm thinking what? Where is this coming from?
Speaker 1:So how does that reflect negatively? You're just talking about the reality behind stuff Like how is that negative?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't. I don't think it was negative. I mean, you know, and when I spoke to others about my my personal and professional mental health challenges, I never said where I worked, I never named the police department. Sure, but yeah, and then I get this order that you need to stop or you're going to get disappointed or terminated. And I'm thinking, but I'm helping people, that's what I'm doing, and I've been doing it for since 2019. And all of a sudden, now it becomes an issue. I just didn't understand that.
Speaker 1:But you did, because I mean, now you're a captain, so like how did you like what happened after that? Because you're obviously you kept going right.
Speaker 2:Right. So what happened was, shortly after I was terminated I reached out to my sister, who lived three and a half hours away and I just wanted to move away and I told her. I said I don't have any money or anything. And she goes, adam, her name's Amy. She said, adam, all you have to do is get down here and we'll take care of everything else. So I did that. I moved into the spare bedroom in her basement and we always joke that, hey, at least I didn't live in my parents' basement. You know after all this.
Speaker 2:But you know, at the time I wasn't taking medicine. At the time I wasn't seeing a therapist at the time and I absolutely love Amy because secretive she was, you know, behind my back looking for a therapist for me because she saw that I needed help and I knew I did. But I wouldn't take that step to get it. And she found a therapist, the same one that I see now, two years later. And I owe a lot to Amy because if it wasn't for her I probably wouldn't be as healthy as I am today.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't be a police officer and you know, at the time I never thought, didn't even know, if I wanted to be a cop anymore. I was thinking with everything I went through even though it's all I knew all the training, all the experience and years I didn't even know if I wanted to do that anymore. And once I got back into therapy and taking medicine and getting healthier, I thought to myself you know, I really want to do this because I still have. I still have something left in the tank. I want to help people. I have a lot of experience and training experience, especially in the area of mental health and my critical incident that most police officers don't. So I was like I want to get back into law enforcement because I want to share that with with other law enforcement and first responders and help.
Speaker 2:So I started applying and there was one in a two week process I was offered three conditional offers of employment from three different police departments in three different counties in Wisconsin and I chose where I work now and I remember during that interview, chief Sean McGee is my chief now and I told him right off the bat hey, I just want to let you know this is what happened to me, because you're going to find it in a background check anyway. So this is what happened to me and he's like thanks for being honest. And so I got hired and our police department has a boat patrol and the chief and I were out on the lake one day and he said to me I know that you speak about your mental health. I support that. I support you and your mental health. If you want to keep speaking, go ahead and do it. I support that, and you can even wear your police uniform if you want to do that. And I'm like wow, that's awesome, yeah, and he's Chief McGee is great.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, yeah, and he's Chief McGee is great. He just doesn't talk the talk, he walks the walk. There could be times that I'm you know, I'm known to be kind of a goofy guy and make up my own songs and walk around and do goofy stuff and sometimes, when I'm quiet, he'll even say, hey, you doing okay, you know, and that kind of stuff's important. We do something called shop with a cop and that's nationwide, and we usually do it at our Walmart here, because we have a Walmart near the community that I'm a police officer at, and I remember the first time we went there, he checked in with me. He said, are you going to be okay when we do that? Because he knows that all Walmarts are set up the same. He knows that my incident happened and I said, yeah, I'll be good and I'm just like, wow, he really pays attention and that's that's important, that's so important in a leader, in a leader in leadership and yeah, so I'm grateful.
Speaker 2:You know, shortly after getting hired I was promoted to captain and I do my best to lead by example too. Everybody knows what I went through. I'm very transparent. I don't sugarcoat nothing and I tell people and tell the officers and anybody else. If you need somebody, call me, text me. I'll be there for you and I'll keep it private. It's about you getting help, you being safe, and they know that I'm being honest about that. I'm not just you know the captain, you know police captain, you know saying something. I really truly mean it. When it comes to somebody's mental health, those captain bars will come off and I'll be. I'll be there for people.
Speaker 1:And I wish we, I wish we had more people like you seriously. So how do you? You may not have an answer to this, but what do you think needs to be done to help curtail the stigma of mental health in police? Off with police officers or first responders Like what? What can we do to help that?
Speaker 2:I think it it needs to begin in a criminal justice classes in college. I think it also needs to be addressed in police academies and I know in Wisconsin it is and I think leaders within police departments, fire departments, ems agencies they need to let their troops know that it's okay. It's okay to talk about your mental health. You are not alone. Please don't suffer in silence. There's so many resources out there for you. There's so many people out there, even complete strangers, that care about you, that love you, that'll help you. It's not easy to do it by yourself, but you're not alone. There's so many people who have gone through it or know somebody who has and can help you. You know, I think it's just. I believe the stigma will always be there. I think it's getting better and it'll continue to be better but I think it'll always be there.
Speaker 2:We need to normalize it and make sure that people know it's okay to talk about your mental health and get help, but then also know that if you do, you're not going to be shunned, you're not going to be criticized, you're not going to instantly be terminated, you're not going to be looked upon, as you know, like something's wrong with you.
Speaker 1:But you see how somebody could hear the first part of your story before you go to the place that you are oh, absolutely. And then say, well, see, that's why I don't do it, because I don't want to go through that same thing. And I have to tell you it's not in just first responders. There is some mental health programs. There's one particular college in Rhode Island that I could think of. It's where they require people who are going into holistic psychotherapy as their major to actually have two years of holistic psychotherapy as part of their curriculum and one. I think it's a fantastic idea. I think any mental health professional should do it. But I can tell you I've heard mental health professionals say I don't need therapy, that's for crazy people. And that's heard mental health professionals say I don't need therapy, that's for crazy people. And that's the mental health professionals, right. So I mean, when you kind of branch outside of that and then you go to places that are a little bit less about mental health, I'm not surprised at how much the stigma is, because it's everywhere, right.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right. You know there were parts of me that, not now but back then, when. You know, when I was sitting in that squad car on New Year's Eve thinking, forget it, I quit, I'm done, I ain't doing this, no more. You know, in the early stages of me getting better, I thought back. You know what. I should have just sucked it up and kept going.
Speaker 1:You know, I would still be there, but that's not where I'm supposed to be, and you actually don't know that too, because one of the things that I don't think you mentioned but it was in the story that you had sent was there were times where you were contemplating suicide, right, and had you stayed, you may have committed suicide.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, there was. There were many times that I went to bed at night and I prayed to God that I wouldn't wake up. I'm like, please just don't, I don't want to wake up. You know, and I easily put my gun to my head a dozen times easily. And I did that when I was intoxicated. And what I would do is I have a 40 caliber Glock which is a model 22. And you remove the magazine, you know, rack the slide to, you know, empty the chamber, take the bullet out and I would put my barrel to my you know right temple and I would pull the trigger. And I don't think I wanted to kill myself, but I can't explain it any other way. I just wanted to hear and feel that metallic click of pulling the trigger and I can't explain it. People ask me all the time why do you think you did that? And I'm like I don't know, I don't know. And some people think, some people tell me maybe you were kind of pre-planning to do it. And then I also think how many times did I do that when I was so intoxicated, blackout, drunk, that I don't remember, and I could have easily forgot to clear the chamber and shot myself, and people would have found me and they probably would have thought you know what that's sad.
Speaker 2:Adam died by suicide, but we know he was depressed and he was involved in the shooting. But no, it's just at least for me. After a traumatic event just at least for me. After a traumatic event like a shooting, like an officer-involved shooting, I behaved and I did things that I never would have done before my shooting. I was a completely different person and I just kept doing it, but then I just rationalized why I was doing stuff. It was just, it was a horrible experience for me and I'm very, I'm truly blessed to be here talking to you today about it all.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad you are, because you have a very, very powerful message and, like I said, I really wish we had more people like you within the first responder community who would accept, like how important this is. I interviewed on one of the earlier episodes, a friend of mine. She's a social worker and her husband's a police officer and she was talking about how, within the department they were in, she had worked in the department doing, I think, some like outreach work to different families. That their way of kind of checking in with each other is you know, are you okay? Yep, okay, kind of suck it up, because if they said they weren't, their fear is their job's in jeopardy. Oh right, they just have to kind of go with it and just say like, hey, nope, everything's great, you know.
Speaker 2:Right and I agree with you 100 percent. I, when I first became a police officer, I was a third shift evidence technician and this was many, many years ago and we responded to a shooting. Three people died, seven were shot, and I remember, shortly after all that was said and done, the police officer support team were going around to the officers asking them if they were okay, and I think I might've been two or three years on. I only had you know on and I remember when they asked me if I was doing okay and I was, I wasn't having nightmares, I didn't feel affected by it at all. But there was no way I was going to tell this this officer, you know, if I was struggling. There's no way. There's no way I was going to say, yeah, I had nightmares or started drinking more. If I.
Speaker 2:If that was the case which it wasn't, because I worked all my life to be a cop and now I'm a cop in my hometown there's no way I would have told him that you know, oh, I'm having issues because I would have feared of losing my job that I worked so hard and all my life to get. So I totally get it when officers tell me that, and I've heard that from many, many people, not only in the United States, but I've spoken with officers in Germany and Australia and in Canada, and what's interesting about that is it really doesn't matter where you live in the world. Police officers and first responders all have that same type of experience. So that's kind of there's really nice to hear that, hey, somebody thousands of miles away is experiencing the same thing I'm experiencing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a universal experience when somebody goes through that. Absolutely, I agree with you, because there was recently wasn't there just a school shooting in Wisconsin, there was in Madison. How does that, when you hear stories like that, does that bring up any of the trauma for you, or is that something that?
Speaker 2:sometimes it can be triggering. Uh, sometimes watching movies can be triggering. Um, saving private Ryan, like the first 30 minutes of that, when they're they're storming the beach. I I watched that several months ago and I had to turn it off. It was horribly triggering. My whole day was shot. I think I watched it maybe 11 to 12 o'clock in the morning and you know, sometimes I watch the news and things are triggering and sometimes they're not. It's just kind of hit or miss. You never know. And then sometimes I can tell that yeah, something triggered me. I don't know what it was, but I'm kind of feeling all like geeked up right now and something, and I recognize that, which is important. So I know, okay, something's not right here. Something triggered me and sometimes I figure out what it was and that's helpful. And sometimes I don't, but I know how to cope positively now and not slip back into that poor coping, because I'm not going back there. It didn't help me, it just made things worse.
Speaker 1:There's also another stigma with police, because I remember when I was growing up it's funny that you say I wanted to be a detective when I was growing up. I never did pursue that. But the interesting thing is there's kind of a similarity between being a therapist and a detective. I say this all the time because we are in a therapy session. We are paying attention to everything. We're trying to figure out what's going on with the person. We're trying to figure out everything that's happening. So I mean that part of it is a little bit similar. But I remember when I was growing up you know, which would have been in the early 80s, mid 80s the way people perceived police officers was very different than the way people perceive police officers now. It seems there's been a very negative mentality shift towards seeing police as the enemy and not as people that are there to help. I can't imagine what that's like for you or anybody who works in that profession to have to deal with that.
Speaker 2:Well, shortly after my shooting, I received hate mail and I can read you briefly. I have a piece of hate mail right here, and so it was mailed to the police department with no return address. They didn't sign it, but the letter it's. It's written all differently, with black ink and thick ink and it looks like pen and it says hey to the murderer cop. What the hell is your big, strong, armed, trained macho man bastard serving the community policeman doing, shooting and murdering a 25-year-old woman in a Walmart store? Throw some socks at her or a chair, or a few pillows, or a bicycle, or some spray or a taser. You, son of a bitch, murderous cop. I hope a drunk driver shoots you. That is horrifying. Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:I received multiple pieces of hate mail like that and I didn't read it right away because I am an emotional guy and my chief knows that he recognized that, but he did tell me. He said you know we are receiving hate mail. I will let you read it, when not right now, because I know how you are, you'll, you'll dwell on it, and he's right, that would have just ate me up if I was reading it right away. And but when I, when I was able to read it. I'm like, oh my gosh, you no return address. You couldn't even put your name to it really. And you know, another thing that would happen is around, you know, for the probably the first five years or so around the anniversary of my shooting, I would get hate messages from people who would create fake Facebook accounts, send me a message and and just like kind of remind me of what I did every year, like I would forget, I wouldn't, but like, oh you, you killed her and all this. It was just horrible.
Speaker 1:Do you avoid reading them Cause it doesn't seem I mean cause it doesn't seem like there'd be any value in reading them?
Speaker 2:I, I don't. I don't avoid reading them. I don't read them right away Usually. Um cause, I want to kind of wrap my mind around it. This is kind of coming. I know it's going to be negative. I don't read everything. One of the biggest things I tried to avoid after my shooting was social media comments, because my shooting went everywhere and even the 911 call was shared online and everybody could listen to the whole 911 call call was shared online and everybody could listen to the whole 911 call. And I tried not to read the comments because I'm reading the ones I read. They didn't know what they were talking about. They weren't there, they didn't have the facts straight and it was hurtful. It really was hurtful. I'm not a bad person, I'm not a killer. I didn't wake up thinking, hey, I want to go kill somebody. I never wanted to do that. I hope I never have to do it again. But yeah, some of the comments just really made me look like a really an evil person.
Speaker 1:Right, all these like keyboard warriors. You know, we have created a culture where everybody is just like angry and incredibly self-centered. I was recently stopped by a police officer when was it? It was maybe like in the spring or early summer and what happened was I I told you I moved from Connecticut I'm sorry, from Rhode Island to Connecticut. So in Rhode Island we have to have inspection stickers on our car, in Connecticut we don't. So I didn't think to take the inspection sticker off. It's not something I really think of.
Speaker 1:So I had Connecticut plates on and I was just driving to work and I was about I don't know, not even like a quarter of a mile from my office, and I got pulled over by a police officer in the town that I grew up in and you know he basically said you know pulling you over because you have connecticut plates, but you have a rhode island inspection sticker, so I want to make sure the car is not stolen. And I was like, okay, whatever. So I gave him all my information and you know, and then, um, he was really nice and he came back and he's like, okay, it all checks out. He's like you know, you could, you should probably take it off so this doesn't happen again. So I did, and then I thought I'm gonna send them, I'm gonna call the captain and just say your officer did a really great job, like to give like positive feedback, because I know people are so used to getting negative feedback. So I I emailed them and I said you know, just an fyi, your officer was incredibly polite, he was very professional, like here's what happened, and he responded back. You know, he was very grateful. He was like thank's what happened? And he responded back. You know he was very grateful. He was like thank you so much. I'll make sure that goes on his record.
Speaker 1:And then he had said you know, because it was a potentially dangerous situation, and that entire time I never once thought that that was a potentially dangerous situation because I don't think like that, I don't have to think like that. So afterwards I stopped and I thought and I went wow, I guess you know, from your perspective, from a police officer's perspective, that could be a dangerous situation because you don't know where you're going into, right? But I think the general public just doesn't think about stuff like that, right, and we don't think about how dangerous your job is every day that you could be, you could be getting shot or you could have. You know, we don't think about that stuff. We don't think about that stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, and thank you, matt, for doing that, because that really means a lot to the officers. When they get something like that either an email or a letter or kind of an attaboy they may not say it does, but it does, because that's not something that we get every single day and something like that can go in your work file as, hey, you did a good job here and shared with other people, and so thanks for doing that, because it's important to do that and it means a lot to the officers when they get something like that.
Speaker 1:I'm a big fan of giving positive feedback. And in another situation I don't know if you heard this one it was wild because I live in the middle of nowhere, Connecticut, and somebody dumped a car on my property with a note that said the car had broken down, which I knew was a lie, because my driveway is like uphill. So I'm like there's no way you broke down. So we don't even have a police force because our town population is 1,400. So I had to call the state police and they came out and luckily I had a camera. It turned out that people were wanted.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, it was this big thing. So the police had their guns out. They're going through my whole house. They're going through my property because the lights were on in my house and I wasn't sure if they had. You know they had gone in. So they had to like clear the whole property. Um, which is really kind of traumatic for me. Yeah, so I went again. I went down to the police station, I got them all thank you cards. I gave them all 25 gift cards to amazon and just it was like thank you so much for doing your job that that's awesome, Because I think we need to do more of that. As you know, citizens to say like okay, thank you, Like you're doing your job, Like this is that could have been really bad. I could have been kidnapped. God only knows what could have happened.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, because when, when people call the police, it's not usually to say you know, hey, captain myers, we just made a pizza or some brownies. You want to come over? Yeah, it's usually for negative stuff, you know. So when police officers receive some you know attaboys or something like how, how you did you know, being thankful that that goes a long way, it really means a lot.
Speaker 1:Even if they say, even if they don't admit that it does, it does sure yeah, and now when I see them, like anytime I see, because you know, like I said, we only have a state police force where I live, so anytime I see them I always walk up to them like thank you, you guys are great, you know, but but again, I don't think. I don't think enough people do that right. I wish I wish more people would do that. Yeah, what do you? What do you think the biggest challenge is right now for police officers and mental health? What's the biggest challenge to that, or the biggest threat to that?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest challenge is that that faces police officers with mental health is the fear of losing their jobs, losing their livelihood, losing their house, their fishing boat, their girlfriend, their boyfriend, their wife, their husband, everything that they worked hard for. They can truly be struggling and truly need help, but you still have that stigma that's standing in the way. But if I do, I might lose everything. So maybe I won't say anything now, maybe I'll wait, maybe I'll cope more, you know, on my own or figure out how I can cope negatively, mind you, but it'll work, you know, for a little bit. But after a while it's just going to bleed right into your job. Your personal life is going to bleed into your professional life and there's going to come a time where you can't manage it and when that happens you are going to lose everything. But it's not going to be for good reasons. It's going to be, you know.
Speaker 2:Let's say an officer takes their life, or their wife or husband divorces them, or their boyfriend girlfriend leaves them because of how poorly they're coping and acting. It's a difficult choice to say I need help or everybody would do it and there would be no stigma. It's a difficult thing to do and I think that's truly what gets in the way is they want to know that if I'm truly struggling and I reach out for help, that things are going to be okay, that I'm not going to be criticized, I'm not going to be judged, I'm not going to lose my job. But the fear of that, I think, is strong enough for them not to reach out for help.
Speaker 1:And it's such a group mentality, I think, even for both, for first responders and for the public. So I mean, when the group mentality is you don't talk or like. When the group mentality of the public is you, you know police officers are not there to help you, you have to actively work to not fall into that, that thought process. Because it's because it is, it's just like group think, like people get sucked into it and you have to say like, okay, okay, hold on, let me challenge this. Maybe they're not all like this, maybe like, maybe know, maybe we can go talk to them, like maybe we can like establish relationships, sure, sure. Is there any sort of anonymous line that police officers can call for mental health services that don't, that are maybe like not in their district, not their state? Is there anything like that?
Speaker 2:Well, there's all kinds of resources out there that you can. You can call or text and remain anonymous. But even with that, law enforcement officers and first responders are hesitant to use that because you know, with caller ID nowadays or ways to trace a phone number, it's not difficult to find out who's calling you or who's emailing you or who's texting you. And if there's a chance that they could find out, a lot of officers just won't take that chance because you know there could be like oh, we're giving this anonymous survey, please fill this out. A lot of guys and gals will say I'm not doing that because there must be some way for them to figure out that.
Speaker 2:I'm filling this out and it's really unfortunate because there are plenty of officers and first responders out there that do need help and I believe it would be okay if they received help and they would be so much happier and so much more healthier and their personal life would probably be better. Their professional life would probably be better. But that stigma and that well, what if I lose my job? It gets in the way, so they choose to do nothing.
Speaker 1:I have a client. He actually told me to say thank you for all the work you're doing, by the way, because I told him I was going to be interviewing you. He used to work in a prison system years and years ago and he talked about how it really impacted all of his relationships, like his family relationship, the relationship he had with his kids. Because he would have to when he was in the prison, he would have to have one mentality, oh sure, because, you know, even the slightest mistake could end up in him getting killed or one of the other, or like an inman getting killed or something bad happening, and so he would have to be very much like militant and in control, and then when he would go home, he would have a really hard time turning that off Right and becoming vulnerable again because it was so dangerous to do it outside of the home. So do you see that happening with police officers too? Is it a similar dynamic?
Speaker 2:I do. Yeah, I mean, we all think differently. You know, like you mentioned earlier, you know some things you just don't think about, and I think that, as police officers, we're always hypervigilant, we're always paying attention to our surroundings, even when we're off duty, even when we say no, we're not, we are. You know, we may sit a specific way in a certain place in a restaurant or stand a certain way when we're waiting in line for something, but I, yeah, it's just we think differently because of our experiences and because of our training, and that's, that's just a part of who we are.
Speaker 1:It's so I could I have to tell you. I could so relate to that, because I can't tell you how many times I have been out with friends. And you know, because of what I do for a living, I cannot turn it off. I hear what the people next to me are saying. I'm paying attention to what everybody's doing. I'm like reading everybody you know, and then I'll pick up on something and I'll be like, oh, that person's not okay. Or I'll ask a question to somebody and my friends are like you can't ask that question and I'm like I'm so used to asking invasive questions for a living that I kind of forget where I am sometimes and I end up, you know, like having a therapy session with some random person.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I know what you mean, because even when, let's say, I go out to eat and I'm sitting at a booth in a restaurant, I'm listening to all the conversations around me, I'm paying attention to everybody who's there. I'm kind of assessing everybody. And even when I'm sitting there what I would say comfortably eating my my food that I just ordered, I'm still tuned into everything that's going on around me. So am I really turning it off? No, I think I'm turning it down, but I'm still paying attention to what's going on, because what if something happens, especially after my shooting? What if something happens? I have to be prepared, I have to be ready. So that's a whole part of being hypervigilant. And, you know, I wish I could just turn it off, flip the switch and then to see how that would be. I mean, I don't remember how it was years ago, but I think that would be really nice.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can, because I have this. I have the same struggle all the time it's you can't unknow what you know. So it would be like if you read somebody's diary and then you have all this information about them, them, and then you're going to go meet with them the next time. You can't unknow it, you're trying to hide it and pretend you don't. So I think it's the same thing with us, like we are so attuned I mean for different reasons, but we are so attuned to what people are doing and why they're doing it that you can't turn it off, right?
Speaker 2:Right, it's all a part of who I am, too Right. Years of training, years of experience just the kind of person I am anyways, if I was a police officer or not, it's just a part of me.
Speaker 1:And yeah. So in your opinion, in your experience, what causes the most mental health issues for police officers? Is it the line of duty? Is it the way they're treated? Is it administrative, like what causes the most amount of stress?
Speaker 2:I think what probably causes the most amount of stress is the different calls. They go on. Okay, you know you could be. Let's say you're working a 10-hour shift and for nine hours and 55 minutes nothing's going on. It's winter time, it's been dead all shift. You're about to grab the mic and say 1042, which is the end of shift. You could even be picking up the mic and right before you're about to say you're ending your shift, you get sent to a call and you're flying lights and sirens there and you don't know, and it could be dangerous.
Speaker 2:I think that stress over and over and over again causes the amount of stress. But that's just how we're trained. We're trained to do that and to do it well. But then you know, if an officer thinks they've done something well and then they're questioned, maybe by administration, that could cause a lot of stress too because they're worried about getting suspended or about getting terminated. And when they know that they did the right thing or they thought they did the right thing and yeah, I think it's just a handful of different things. I mean we could have a whole different conversation about that and depending on where you work in the United States or the world, I mean it's Well, maybe we'll have to have you come back for a part two then I'd be willing to do that.
Speaker 1:So a couple more questions. What advice would you give to a starting officer, somebody that was just going into the field, say next week, like what would you tell them?
Speaker 2:I would tell them to be open and honest about their experiences and what they're feeling and ask a lot of questions. If you don't understand something, ask. It's okay to ask questions. You don't know what you don't know and for the like field training officers out there sergeants, lieutenants, captains, any administrator talk the talk and walk the walk. Tell your troops that it's okay to talk about your mental health, that they're not alone, they don't have to suffer in silence, that you support them, but then you also have to show them how you support them.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I experienced after my shooting is, you know, at the police department that I used to work for we had like a shared drive that was on all the computers and I remember one officer coming to me saying that, hey, we just put a new folder on the computer. We didn't know what to label it, so we labeled it miscellaneous. But if you go in it, it has all kinds of mental health resources and I'm thinking why not just label it mental health resources or employee assistance or something like that? I think, as me, as a captain, as a leader, it's important for you to show them and not just say I support you. If you need help, come to me. I support you. You have to show them in other ways. You have to got. You have to be an example. You can't just sit behind a desk and say I'm going to do this and and and not do it. It's. That's really important.
Speaker 1:I don't know what EAP services are like where you are, but I know one of the biggest problems that we run into from mental health professionals with EAP services is oftentimes they pay much less than regular, like just somebody coming in to get individual therapy, and the other thing that happens is there'll be a very small amount of sessions, so they'll give you like four or five sessions. So then you're working with this client, you start to build a relationship with the client, the client starts to make progress and then their EAP benefits stop and then they have to pay out of pocket or they have something ridiculously high deductible and then they can't afford to get it. So it it creates a problem Very similar here too, because it's it's like you peel the bandaid off a little bit and then you throw them out the door you know, right Right, I know I used EAP one time and I think they gave me six sessions, it's nothing.
Speaker 2:And then after that it's like, okay, we're done. And it's like but no, I, you're helping me, and I could go for another six, maybe even more and it's like nope that's all you get.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of like what do I do now? Funny story I had the the only two EAP referrals that I received in the last, I don't know, like 10 years. Um, they paid for four or five sessions and both of both of the clients that came in ended up quitting their job. Because when they told me what their problem was, I'm like it's your job and I still see them years later. Right, so it's funny. No, I get it. So what can I do? Or any mental health professional, because, as I was telling you before we were recording, I have been trying so hard to get them to listen and say, because you know, like I was telling you, I get MSW students all the time for internships that you know I would love to be like, hey, I have these students, they're free, like you can see them, you know. Or or even to like go down and give some sort of support in a different way, like what, what can we do to like help police officers?
Speaker 2:I think it would be important for you to try to attend roll calls at police departments. Is that allowed? You can always reach out to the shift commander or some type of leadership and say who you are and, you know, maybe attend one of the roll calls and just say you know, hi, I'm Matt. This is what I offer. This is what's going on. If you ever need help or anything like that, you know here. I'm going to leave some business cards here. It's confidential, you know, come in and talk to me, or you know, just tell them the different type of therapies you offer, if it's talk therapy or virtual or what have you start there, kind of build a rapport, and maybe even the idea is depending on building that rapport if you have an option to do a ride-along with an officer, see.
Speaker 1:I would love to do that. I would absolutely love to do that.
Speaker 2:Because that's the officer's office and sure there's camera systems in there and stuff like that and maybe some officers might not feel comfortable opening up to you. But you build that rapport and if there's a way to make sure the camera's off and you're driving around in their office, you'd be surprised what they may open up and share with you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a great idea. Thank you, and that's.
Speaker 2:I think that's important.
Speaker 2:I mean, I became a certified peer specialist in the state of Wisconsin and I focus mainly on police and first responders and I know how difficult it is to break through that stigma and have an officer open up to you, especially if they don't know you and they don't know maybe what's the hidden agenda here.
Speaker 2:Our leadership might have this guy pop in at roll call and now he wants to ride with us. Yeah, I'm not talking to this guy, but if you can build a rapport and ride along with even one person and that officer starts talking to the other officers, like hey, this Matt guy, he's pretty great. You were talking about this and that, and do you know that Matt can do this too? And this helped me and all that, I mean it's a start and you may have to do that. It may not work at the first police department, it may not work at the first sheriff's department. You may have to kind of hit a few of them first before you get moving. But I think that's a start and I think that would really be important work if you were able to do that?
Speaker 1:And what about something less maybe invasive, like offering trainings on it, like even like self-care? Like coming in and saying like hey, let's do a training on self-care, like how, do you? Take care of yourself.
Speaker 2:You can do that. I'm assuming every law enforcement agency is similar to the agencies here in Wisconsin. You know, every year you have to have a certain amount of hours for recertification and you could easily reach out to the police and sheriff's department state patrol in your neck of the woods and basically say, hey, I'd like to come in and offer an hour or two, offer in-service training about self-care, and they'll tell you yes or they'll tell you no. I mean, we have people do that for us all the time.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I would love to do that.
Speaker 2:I mean it's, and then you just basically show up and do your thing and share with everybody. You know why self-care is important and what they can do in the privacy of their own home, where nobody's going to know. You know if you're struggling, this may help you, that might help you, and you can do that on your own and nobody will know. So it's yeah, I think that would be really beneficial.
Speaker 1:Thank you, adam. I really appreciate that because it's something I really would like to do, so I'm going to I'm certainly going to pursue that. What final pieces of advice would you give to the listeners on, maybe, things that they can do to help end the stigma?
Speaker 2:Right. My biggest thing is it's okay to talk about your mental health. You are not alone. Please don't suffer in silence. If you're suffering, please reach out. Even if you don't understand what you're going through, you can tell them hey, something's just not sitting well with me. I don't understand this, but I know something's not right. I need some help. There's so many people out there, there's so many resources out there that are willing to help you, even complete strangers. I learned that after my shooting, that complete strangers were praying for me, that were thinking about me. So there's people out there, there's resources out there, and if you know somebody a family member, a friend, a colleague that's struggling and you can't do the whole face-to-face thing, send them a text message, send them an email.
Speaker 2:Technology nowadays is great. There are so many ways to communicate with people. We're on our phones all the time and it what 10 seconds to say hey, buddy, I'm thinking of you, you need anything? Let me know. That means a lot, even if they don't admit it. They. They know that somebody's paying attention to them and looking out for them. So please try to do something. If you see that somebody's struggling, please try to do something, because with my experience. I find it very hard to believe that nobody realized that I was struggling through the years. I think they did, but I think they didn't know how to approach me or they didn't know what to do, so they chose not to do anything, and a simple text could save a life. A simple text could mean everything to a person who's suffering.
Speaker 1:The tough part, adam, is I think we have. Our society is becoming more and more narcissistic, and I don't mean like personality disorder, I just mean people are so conditioned to only care about I think COVID did a big number on this too what's happening to them. Yeah. And it's so different than what it was when I was growing up, where people were more invested in like what their neighbors were doing and like having these relationships, and it just seems like that human connection is disappearing.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, when I was little, I remember we knew all our neighbors. Our neighbors would come over, knock on the door and say, hey, can I get some sugar? Can I get a cup of sugar? Do you have any milk? You know we knew everybody Now. It's just different. Nowadays it's not like it was.
Speaker 1:I wish we could find a way to go back to that. We can get there. We just got to be positive. One of the last things I wanted to ask you, too, is you won an award for something to do with like increasing mental health awareness, right?
Speaker 2:I did A lot of my mental health advocacies. Somebody watched me speak at a NAMI walks event and submitted an award for me because of all my mental health advocacy, and that's great. When they came to our town hall meeting and presented me with the award, I guess I never realized all the different things that I've been doing. But when they're reading everything I'm like, wow, I took a step back and I'm like, wow, yeah, I've been doing a lot and I do what I do because I want to help people. I want to help at least one person. I'm hoping that you and I talking today it can reach one person and if it doesn't, then it's worth it.
Speaker 2:And one thing that we did start this year I approached Chief McGee and said, hey, I want to do some kind of mental health program at the police department and maybe something called like Mental Health Mondays and what we do, and he supported it 100%.
Speaker 2:He's like go right ahead.
Speaker 2:And what we do is the first Monday of every month, we share somebody's personal and professional mental health journey somebody from our community and what I do is during the month, I sit down with them and write their story up and we share that on our social media.
Speaker 2:It also gets shared in the local newspaper and the county newspaper, and it's great because we're trying to bridge that gap, not only between police officers and people with mental health, but we want to normalize mental health also by sharing people's personal and professional experiences. It's to the point now that people are reaching out to us saying they want to share their experience. So and we've only been doing it for 12 months and it's great We've I've I've interviewed people who were incarcerated for 14 years, people who had bipolar, people who have schizophrenia, major depressive disorder similar to me, anorexia, all kinds of stuff, and it's great and these are members of our community that are contributing, members of the community that they just have mental health challenges, like most of us do, and we're just doing our best to normalize it, like you know, one month at a time, and it's really helping and I'm really grateful for that and grateful for Chief McGee's support, because he could have said no and he said yeah, let's do this.
Speaker 1:Every time you say Chief McGee, I just think of NCIS.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Like every time you say, chief McGee, I just think of NCIS. Oh yeah, like every time you say that you know what you made me think of. There was a program that is called Wire of Hope. Have you ever heard of it? No, I haven't. No, so it's a program that allows people to write to incarcerated prisoners.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And there's research behind it that shows that if they have a healthy support on the outside, that their recidivism rate decreases, as long as it's a healthy support. And sadly, I wrote to one person who I thought was doing really well and he got out and I think he ended up relapsing, unfortunately, and kind of disappeared. But I've been talking to him for like two years and he was going to come on the show at one point and it's kind of very sad, but mental health is everywhere and it's kind of very sad, but you know, mental health is everywhere, right? And I think we all have to try to help each other as much as we can.
Speaker 1:So, adam, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you and I'm going to put is it okay if I put the bio in the description that you sent me? Absolutely All right, perfect. So thank you everybody for listening and if you haven't given me a five-star rating yet, please do so and like and follow. Thank you. Thank you, adam. Yeah, thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or wendy thank you again.
