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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 3 E:9 Veterinary Voices: Advocacy, Diversity, and Human Rights Challenges Part 2
The episode dives into the intersection of veterinary medicine, social justice, and global crises, focusing on the personal experiences of veterinary students facing harassment at the hands of faculty. The discussion emphasizes the necessity of One Health, the varied cultural perspectives on the human-animal bond, and the vital role of community and allyship in combating systemic injustice.
• Personal experiences of harassment within higher ed.
• Moral duplicity within academic environments
• The One Health approach and its relevance to societal issues
• Cultural perspectives on the human-animal bond
• Importance of community solidarity and activism
• Calls to action for listeners to engage and support marginalized voices
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 3:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. This is a part two to the episode we did two weeks ago and it will be picking up right from where we left off. Thank you again for tuning in.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think all four of you are inspirational. So, erica, I would you know you are equally inspirational, so don't forget that. And I want to also parent what you said about what student he was talking about. It reminded me of something I saw recently that said if you ever wondered what you would do during the Holocaust, you're doing it right now. Yeah, and I thought that was a really powerful statement because it's true, because the people who are most vocal and are like here are all the things I would have done are the people who are sitting back and doing nothing.
Speaker 3:And with student S, to go back to that egregious, awful statement, I mean, it's just when you talk about the moral duplicity that you brought up earlier, erica. So here you have somebody who takes an oath and says that they're going to help both people and animals and then threatens somebody in a in a just a disgusting way. Like how did those two things coexist? Like how can you claim to be upholding an oath and be all about humanity but then make such a blatantly threatening statement? I don't get that. I really a student student asked I don't even know how you look at that person, because that is like I don't know how you have a lot of respect for you.
Speaker 2:I I really I appreciate that erica phrased it as a violent act because I think in that moment, when all that was happening to us, it was shocked. It was so shocking that we couldn't process what had really happened and that was, amazingly. That was actually not the worst thing. That was said to us by a tenured faculty member on that day. Another faculty member told us that if we were in Palestine, hamas would rape and kill us. Other faculty told us that you know, women couldn't even be doctors in Palestine, so you know we wouldn't even exist as female vet students. That's not true, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, taking a stamp to be like. It's not true, guys, just in case you didn't know. But it's the fact that these faculty members who behaved in such a disturbing and violent manner towards students who truly have no power against them, and over a year later they continue to harass and intimidate. They claim repeatedly that we were lying about what happened on that day, even though administrators, including the dean, walked past that event, saw it happen. It's not a rumor, it happened, everyone saw it. And yet we're being gaslit that either it's like that thing, or either it didn't happen, or, if it did happen, it's not as bad as you said it was, or whatever, whatever it didn't happen, or if it didn't happen, it's not as bad as you said it was, or whatever, whatever.
Speaker 2:Um, it just goes back to what we were talking about earlier, that if you're going to recruit all these diverse students and then put them in an environment where they're actually not even just not supported but not safe like really and truly not safe how is our profession ever going to get anywhere? We talk a lot. I've heard a lot about conversations about cultural competence within our profession, which can often manifest in like rattling off facts about different cultures and how you can use those when you're interacting with clients of different backgrounds. But the reality of it is, if our profession is going to continue to be like 95% white because we're scaring off everyone else, with these horrible people who are making sorry, I'm not being very eloquent, but truly just dreadful Accurate though who are making this an unsafe space for all of us, we're we're never going to get beyond rattling off facts about different, different ethnic groups and using that to inform our care. Our, our care is never going to improve in that way.
Speaker 3:Um I would also imagine the the person has said this to you is fully aware of the high suicide rates among veterinarian professionals. Right, cause that was something I didn't know about until, you know, I had met Erica and I learned about it. But I would imagine somebody in the field is fully aware that there's this high suicide rate to begin with, right, and that is also not a factor in their decision to be aggressive and horrible to somebody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean even stepping away from any of the quote unquote politics of the scenario. Just a professor whose responsibility is to teach, who I have given so much trust to, who I've been so vulnerable with, to behave in such a violent fashion is just how, did how did you even end up in this position? You know where, where. Where are the? Where are the ethics? You know where? Where is the oath that you took to to the greater veterinary community?
Speaker 4:yeah I oh sorry no you, you go first please I was just going to say that you know the.
Speaker 4:I think it should also be discussed why the walkout even have, like the demonstration, even had to happen in the first place. Right, if the university and the institution had created an environment of support for students that were directly dealing with this incident and this terrible, terrible genocide, it wouldn't have happened because there wouldn't have been that, students would have felt supported, students would have felt hurt, and that's something to be said as well. And I think that, matthew, I think you mentioned earlier about you know going through avenues like reporting, and that's something that we also did. We went through, you know, official university avenues to report the incidents and you know direct quotes and timestamps and all that stuff. And it was essentially, you know, when we got our response back, it was deemed quote not pervasive or offensive enough to be considered harassment, end quote.
Speaker 4:And you know to hear that is a punch in the gut in itself. But it's also just so interesting that you know these institutions are promoting students to well. First they're bringing in students of diverse backgrounds and then they're telling these diverse students to, you know, be movers and shakers and to them they go ahead and repress them and they do it in a way that is very offensive, and in a way that is it goes into what you were saying about, erica, about moral duplicity, right? This idea that, oh, like, we're totally going to elevate these voices because they're underserved and they're not heard, but then, when it comes to topics that are discussed by these groups, oh no, we're not going to talk about those ones, though, because maybe that'll get in the way of our funding or PR, or whatever the reasons may be. So I think there's something to be said there for sure.
Speaker 2:I don't know if Dr Q wanted to get into this at all, but they like speaking of that repression and silencing. I feel like, drq, you faced it most egregiously, non-stop left and right.
Speaker 5:I don't know if any of those stories you wanted to recount or share yeah, it was frustrating, um, yeah, so, like, the first time was when I responded to the dean's solidarity statement.
Speaker 5:I didn't get a response, um, and then another letter was sent out and the response was no, not allowed to make any more solidarity statements.
Speaker 5:And then something that I've been wanting to bring up, that we were all involved with, that was just if not as infuriating, maybe even more infuriating than the walkout. And what happened there is we had a memorial for the Palestinian lives that were lost, and so we put up pictures of Palestinians, palestinian civilians who were killed, and candles and flowers, and we had a little memorial. And then we put it up in a building where, like several other displays, had been put up by other student groups, and we were told that it needed to come down. And it was the same faculty members who yelled in our faces who had come, looked at it, made a phone call and administration decided it needed to come down because somehow it was anti-Semitic. And so that was just so infuriating, because what is more dehumanizing than hearing that we're not allowed to honor our people who have been killed in a genocide and that that needs to come down? But you can stop like things, other things, yeah and how is that?
Speaker 3:even remotely anti-semitic that word has become. I mean, it's been thrown around for everything.
Speaker 5:Now that it's actually lost all meaning, I think like in in terms of when people are using it I completely agree, like it's dangerous, um, for true acts of anti-semitism because it's taking away from the meaning of anti-semitism the way it's being used, thrown around by people. So I completely agree with that. And then, um, and then, yeah, there's just several instances where where I tried to do something, tried to hold an event, tried to send out a flyer for something that was happening on main campus a panel discussion and the responses I got back are all kinds of excuses like, oh, this doesn't have to do with veterinary medicine, we're not going to advertise it, we're not going to send that out, we're not going to send something that's political, um, all kinds of excuses. And and so the silencing, yeah, just kept happening over and over and over again.
Speaker 1:and and whenever I tried to point that out, I just got more excuses like, no, we're not trying to silence you, um, yeah, your bureaucratic um, barriers, right, um, obstructionism, right, it's very common, it's a very commonly used tactic by veterinary administrations, educational administrations, of course, across the board, um. So if you are an organizer with a larger institution, like understand, like what we're doing here, we can have conversations at another time, right, when you are facing repression, like you know. Collect your receipts as far as evidence as much as possible, as much of a recording as possible, and hold on to it, because the time to talk about it, if it's not going to be able to happen right away, is we can talk about it. We can talk about we might not be able to talk about it directly, but we can talk about it like we're talking about it here. That I am. I am hopeful that maybe some administrators at the place that you were will one day listen to this and maybe they might have some reflections to expand on it, because I'd like to take this in an angle. You know I've had a couple of conversations acts of peaceful protest, right, which, all of these things as far as acknowledging that there are lives that are, that are being grieved for by a community, um, so, in this case, like a veterinary community that is grieving the law, the killing of palestinians, um, that when, like when, um a strategy of, of obstruction is, is to kind of make it narrow, which is an irony is saying it's not involving mental health.
Speaker 1:When we talk about the concepts of One Health, right, as far as veterinary medicine is really really big on saying like, oh well, we're perfectly positioned for this concept of One Health, which I'm going to, if one of the students wants to talk a little bit about One Health and what it means, because this has always been something that was very important for me as a student many years ago when global veterinary medicine, this concept of global veterinary medicine and global One Health came to be part of it and where, absolutely, we should be caring about conflict areas of conflict, areas of what happens with a genocide, what happens with political instability and these kinds of things, because they affect agriculture, animals, the human-animal bond, and so I really wanted to emphasize that and bring conversation to One Health and have the students and Dr Q speak about their passions about it.
Speaker 1:And then the next thing I'd like to shift to, if you would indulge me talk about your relationship with the human-animal bond. This comes from your culture background, because I think all three of you, and also me, as BIPOC veterinary professionals, we might have a different perspective of the honoring of the human-animal bond compared to other cultures, and I explicitly want us to talk about BIPOC culture and the human animal bonds from each of your perspectives, if you're willing to indulge me. Okay. So refocusing students, one Health and the irony of being told no, you're not going to be talking about other areas of healthcare because it's not veterinary medicine.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Yeah, I guess. Just to give a basic definition, I'll read off One Health is an approach that recognizes that the health of people is closely connected to the health of animals in our shared environment. You can talk about anything now once you put like one health behind it, because it's true, one health is it's very intersectional um, in the sense that it you know, our, our systems are so intertwined um, and everything does relate to one another um, at the end of the day, and you know, human health and animal health is a very apparent, you know, connection.
Speaker 4:Whether we're talking about epidemics, pandemics, things like that, like you know, highly pathogenic avian influenza is a big hot topic right now. That's a one health, you know, issue for sure. But I think you know, in regards to Palestine, you know there's a lot of to be said about one health and Palestine being an issue of one health. Whether you're talking about, you know, the animals and the crops and the human health that has come as a result of bombing infrastructure, water sources and polluting water sources, intentionally poisoning meat products that are getting sent in through borders. These are all issues of unhealth that need to be talked about and they're very relevant to what we should be talking about in our institutions in general. I don't believe in compartmentalization of you know, veterinary medicine being about you know, the pet that walks into your clinic or just the person in front of you. I think these issues broaden and expand and, um, I think that's what makes one health so beautiful but challenging at the same time is that it's so encompassing that it could be a conversation that started and then never ended. It's just that encapsulating.
Speaker 4:And I think maybe another word to kind of make it more tangible for people that it's their first time hearing it is this idea of intersectionality.
Speaker 4:I feel like it's quite a big word these days and I would argue it's a similar concept to one health, right, if we were to talk about intersectional environmentalism, for example, which is something I'm very passionate about, right, the idea that the way one experiences climate justice and climate injustice directly correlates, excuse me, to your SES.
Speaker 4:Your skin color where you live, history of redlining, all of these things play a crucial role in how climate change can affect you and I think you know that is just a parallel, excuse me, to One Health.
Speaker 4:And, yeah, when we talk about Palestine and when we talk about One Health, like you can't forget Palestine is, I guess, what I'm trying to say, and it's very important to recognize these intricacies and I think when we ignore them, we are doing the world a disservice and we're also doing ourselves a disservice, because it's really beautiful and it's really important to make these connections and to and we all need to use our niches and the unique, you know, the unique degrees that we come with, the unique passions that we come with, the art that we create, like all of that plays a role in how we can solve, so we can create solutions and solve problems, and so having these kinds of discussions that are so branching, like One Health, can really create some interesting dialogue and create some very tangible solutions to better the lives of a lot of people uh, how about uh student s or dr q?
Speaker 1:do you have anything that you'd like to add to that?
Speaker 5:I think student e did a great job explaining the concepts of one health and why it's so important, and then just a couple of other things so talking about, like the interconnectedness of everything. The impact on the environment in Gaza from the bombing is going to impact the rest of the world, and also all the money that the US is sending will impact things locally, because those resources are not being used here where they could be. So just something else to keep in mind.
Speaker 3:It's amazing to me how many people don't understand that concept. Dr Kulik, I've had that conversation many times, just from like the financial perspective of how much money we are sending to fund a genocide versus taking care of the failing infrastructures we have in this country, and it's like it's sometimes it's talking like talking to a wall. People are just looking at me like it's, I don't get it. And it's so obvious. I don't understand why people don't see it so obvious I.
Speaker 1:I had a, I had a way of discussing this um with a, with a local organizer that I've connected to um. So just also another note for um any veterinary professionals on this call if you want to get more active right in addition to the things that students have mentioned already. As far as letter writing, you know, utilizing your voice, organizing, staging a walkout, getting connected with local community that's organizing in solidarity is like really good first step and we were having this conversation. But I remember 9-11 happened my freshman year of college, so I had just uh and I went to um. I went to uc berkeley, uh, you know, which is a big on um, a lot of human rights movements and student-led movements and there was a big anti-war movement that happened when I was there.
Speaker 1:When I started my education, my tuition was like roughly about $2,500 a semester in state Very reasonable, very achievable. A semester in state Very reasonable, very achievable. Now, of course, this was like the kickoff of the beginning of what has been many, many years of specifically targeting Muslim countries for bombardment of American bombs, right, so just think about the decades it's been going on my tuition by the time I left because I was at a state institution that was getting governmental funding, which then precipitously decreased because of the amount of money that was being spent on military or militarization. By the end of my college career it was like maybe about $6,500 to almost $8,000 a semester over a four-year period. There was a suit, a lawsuit. I got a little bit of money back, but that is like like a material like this is a material outcome, right, our institutions, our programs, the things that are already going to be undermined to a certain extent, um of unknown amounts, will continue to be, um in decreasing in quality, because they're the budget is going to the military, to bombs, of which you know there has never been an audit that has been completed.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I don't. You know, it's a little bit odd seeing billions and billions of dollars go to destroying, uh, soil, ecosystems, um, water supplies and and people and cultural and schools and universities and all of that stuff, and cultural and schools and universities and all of that stuff. Um, you know the costs cost to rebuild as well. Right, that has environmental implications. The, the long-term strategic thinking is not existent in our world as far as far as I can tell. This is completely my opinion, not associated with any organization that I have any type of relationship with. I think I've cleared up most of those things. As far as there's no organization that I have like enough of a relationship with, that will get into trouble about this kind of stuff that I'm saying, but like, this is all my opinion.
Speaker 3:I think some of that goes back to the reason why I started. Well, why I called the podcast the United States of PTSD is because I think that, by design, that you could argue that the country has been brilliant about desensitizing people and making people feel completely helpless and at the same time, you know, feeling like they can't make any changes. So it's almost like that learn helplessness, it's just like okay, and you know, we are just inundated with trauma after trauma after trauma, after, like, hitting wall after wall after wall, and people just aren't giving up. But I think, again, that's by design.
Speaker 1:Well, to shift for the slightly up note, potentially student S. First I'd like to reflect back to see if there's anything else on one health that thought, so you wanted to add, and then shifting, maybe taking us to like what the human animal bond means to you so we can cut, because I'm having this moment being like I don't think that I've actually had enough conversations where coming to the realization that how we think about the human animal bond and how other people do might be different. So I really specifically want to hear about that, what inspires you in that space, so we can also continue to humanize ourselves to the people who are trying to dehumanize us about the way that we think about the human animal bond the way that we think about the human-animal bond.
Speaker 2:Sure, I feel like the way that I think about the human-animal bond is actually really intertwined with the concept of One Health, which is what Student E so beautifully laid out for us. But I grew up in India and that was where I realized that I wanted to become a veterinarian. My mother and I did some animal welfare work with stray dogs and cats out there and I think that, being here in America and being in veterinary school here, the interpretation of the human animal bond as one between a pet and an owner exclusively has never really resonated with me, even though, yes, of course that's true, we all, like my cats, have been walking around me the entire time we've been doing this podcast. All of us have cats that have been walking around us the entire time we've been doing this. All of us have cats that have been walking around us the entire time we've been doing this. But you know where I grew up.
Speaker 2:Yes, people had pets, but I think the relationship that was more important between humans and animals seemed to be of neighbors or community members. You know when dogs are like sheltering on your roof when it's flooding outside, or like monkeys sneak into your kitchen and steal your bread or whatever. You know you, just you, just you live together as a community, and that's just what my experience of the human animal bond has always been, and so the concept of one health has never been like this academic discussion of you know how human health is intertwined with environmental factors and XYZ. For me, it's just like, when you look around, this is how our world is Like. We are sharing the space. It doesn't just belong to us and we all affect each other and yeah, yeah, it's just, it's a sacred thing and it goes beyond just. You know me and my cat sitting next to me. You know it's just how we live and exist in our world. Passing it on to student year dr q sure I can go um.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that was beautiful um student s um.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, I can resonate with that and I feel the same way um, and I think it is really important to think about the fact that it's not just um a really a special relationship between people and their pets, but there are also animals that we depend on for food, food products, transportation, and that is such a beautiful relationship as well, and that is something that I have become more and more interested in during my career is exploring that relationship and how we truly can't live without animals, how, um like, we truly can't live without animals and and um, and I also want to emphasize that like, we see that in Palestine and in Gaza, like, there's so many children who are saving their cats, um like, putting their animals first um caring for their cats when they don't have anything to eat.
Speaker 5:Um like the solala, the organization that erica mentioned, um. I don't know how they're doing it. They've saved hundreds of animals and they will carry these animals with them um whenever, whenever they have to go um, when they're dislocated, so they're or delocated um, so they've taken them from one place to another, and it's like hundreds of cats like, like, and somehow they're taking care of all these animals, um, and the wounded animals, like they don't leave any of them behind, and I think that is so beautiful and, you know, like these beautiful people, beautiful human beings, are putting these animals first, and that's also something that we see in Islam too. You know, we learn to take care of animals and to treat animals well, and like that is very much a part of the Quran and a part of our religion.
Speaker 3:So student a. Did you want to add? Okay?
Speaker 4:yeah, sure, um. Thank you, dr q, for mentioning that I was. I also want to talk about islam, and I feel like um. You know, I grew up understanding that nature was very much a part of my test. How I treated nature would be a part of my test in this life.
Speaker 4:There's a word in Arabic called amana and it means like trust, like the trust, and in the Quran, or holy text, it says that, essentially, humanity has been placed with the amana of this, this world, the trust of this world. We are like the, the keepers of it, if you will, and we will be tested in how we treat the creatures of this world, the creatures that have been created, the natural world and other humans, and that's something that I grew up understanding and knowing and something I really love about Islam, and it's also something that I think has very naturally led me to want to become a veterinarian, because I feel like this is a calling that I have, I love medicine and I love animals, and I want to uphold my veterinarian. Um, because I feel like this is a calling that I have, I love medicine and I love animals, and I want to uphold my islamic duty of, you know, taking that amount of very seriously, um, and this just feels like the very like the most aligned way to do it. Um, so, you know, life is incredibly sacred in islamic theology and thought and practice. And, yeah, I also, you know, I have an environmental science background and I learned a lot of interesting things from a lot of amazing mentors, a lot of them being indigenous mentors and I really had my eyes open to this idea of, like the colonial lens of man versus nature and the fact that we separate indoor from outdoor.
Speaker 4:You know, our language is so important and the fact that we even distinguish indoor from outdoor is in itself, something that, whether we know it or not, kind of separates us from the natural world, kind of separates us from the natural world, and there are a lot of systems in place, ie capitalism or many other systems, that kind of make us forget that we are, in fact, a part of this natural world. That includes animals and plants, and the air that we breathe, the water we drink and the things that we do have a direct impact on that. Our answers had no separation from the natural world. That was, there was no distinction, right, you know, even down to the names of animals. You know there was no taming of animals, there's no taming of the wild, or, you know, nature domination these kinds of terms didn't really exist, because there has always been a reciprocity with the land and with animals and that manifests in a lot of beautiful ways and I think you know.
Speaker 4:On the topic of Palestine, you know Palestine, they say, is a litmus test and I also believe that Palestine is, and Palestinian culture is a beautiful example of, you know, the indigenous connection to land and this idea that Palestinians truly resist for their love of the land, not for revenge or not for hatred, it's simply because of a love for the land.
Speaker 4:And if you don't know much about Palestine, you and you do some very basic research, you you would quickly find that olive trees, for example, are an incredibly important symbol of resistance and hope for Palestinians and that is solely due to the connection to the land.
Speaker 4:Right, you know, you have the people that absolutely love their land and tend to their land, and there's just so much to be said about that. I feel like there's so much truth in how a group of people or one treats, um, the the natural world around them, whether it's animals, whether it's plants, whether it's their water, whether it's their air. Um, there's a lot to be said. If you're trying to uphold those resources, um, I would like to think you're on the side of truth and morality. And if you're trying to bomb those resources and trying to seal those resources and commandeer them and commodify them, then I'm afraid that's not the truth and I think that is you know. If you don't know much about Palestine, I encourage anyone listening to really understand that natural connection to the land and how it's just so important for so many people, not just Palestinians, but all Indigenous people across all corners of the world.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Those are great. Well, thank all three of you. Those are great answers. I just for time we do have to wrap up, and I just wanted to close and ask all of you one thing. So, for those people who are not veterinarians, or those people who are not in the realm of veterinarian medicine or animal medicine, what can they do to help support you?
Speaker 1:do to help support you. I'm going to kick off, actually, if you don't mind, because I've had some collaborative conversations with some solidarity work where we came up with a list of things. So, number one you can go and find animal health care workers against genocide, and it is not. We have a website. There are like letter campaigns that you can participate in or be aware of. In addition, other types of local organizing, suggestions or other things that you can show up at.
Speaker 1:So the other thing to consider is to show evidence of your solidarity with Palestinian human rights when you go to your veterinary clinic. So go ahead and wear a keffiyeh when you bring your pet in to be seen at the veterinary clinic. You may, unfortunately, receive some experiences that might not be great, right, but my hope is that there are two things that will happen. Number one that people at that veterinary clinic who may be organizing and who may have felt alone will feel that solidarity of seeing somebody representing Palestinian solidarity walk into their clinic. So there's that right and you can do.
Speaker 1:What we're going to do is we're going to work on a One Health for Gaza button and sticker that specifically explicitly says One Health for Gaza, and if you wear that pin in front of a veterinary professional, it will have meaning, right. So I actually did, carving my own stamps to do this. So, just like, go ahead, make something One Health for Gaza and then go wear that or have that in visibility spaces and in spaces where you're doing advocacy work and see who connects with you and because that person, you can connect them to a community of veterinary professionals who are taking action and just saying, like you know, being there and saying that it's something that you care about. So, with those ideas, who wants to go next?
Speaker 2:I can chime in from a student perspective. At universities around the country, students have been organizing. There are some vet schools that have vet students organizing as well and posting on social media. So I would encourage community members and people outside of vet med to investigate on social media If you happen to be near a veterinary school, see if there are students organizing and you know you can do one of two things. You can always repost on social media.
Speaker 2:Many students are sharing their narratives, as well as the narratives of their community members and Palestinians on social media and amplifying that really really does make a difference.
Speaker 2:The other thing is community members can always attend and help at actual physical events. So when we host events at our veterinary school, we do not host them exclusively for veterinary students. We want to educate and build community and, like Dr Q was saying earlier, that feeling of being alone and not being able to be brave because it's just you, if you as a community member or a different kind of student or whoever you may be, were to show up and say, hey, I'm not a vet student, I'm not a veterinarian, but I'm here with you, we're here together, you're not alone it makes a massive difference. We have had a lot of support from people outside of vet med that have made this possible, because if it weren't for them, it would have been like five of us and that's pretty scary. So there's always something to do, even if that something is just showing up and saying, hey, I'm here right now with you.
Speaker 3:Dr Q, student E.
Speaker 5:So I agree with all that. And then just things to do in general. Um, to help palestine is don't stop talking about it. It's a kind of what you guys were mentioning, but keep talking about it.
Speaker 5:When we talk about selective empathy or um, like, I feel like some people will just talk about something when it's convenient for them, um, but, and it is, I don. I don't know if this is the right word, but it feels like it's losing momentum, but people are still dying every day in Gaza. So don't stop talking about it and don't underestimate how much you sharing a post or having a conversation with somebody who doesn't know anything about Palestine, how much of a difference that makes. There are people who I had conversations with years ago who have reached out to me and told me that they know about Palestine because of a conversation that we had, and they're in solidarity and asking how they can help, and there are organizations to donate to Sulala in particular. If you're interested in helping animals that are rescued, and then rallies and physical events as well. That's a part of it.
Speaker 3:Dr Hu, what was the name of that place that you said? The organization?
Speaker 5:Sulala, so S-U-L-A-L-A Okay.
Speaker 3:I'll add that to the notes at the end.
Speaker 5:Thank you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, what everyone said was amazing, and I might be a little bit redundant in what I say, but I think, just in general, a good ally will always amplify BIPOC voices and actions because, at the end of the day, there is safety and strength in numbers, and so I really do encourage people in any space, not just the veterinary space, to really be brave and speak up in whatever respective space you find yourself in and to take it upon yourself to educate first yourself and then the people around you, whether it's co-workers, students, colleagues, etc. And then, I would also say, to support popular movements such as boycotting Israeli products, such as Disney or Starbucks, for example. And I would recommend for people to refer to the BDS list, aka the Boycott, divestment and Sanctions list that's already online and established, with extensive research and a lot of important justification for why this could be an important strategy for the liberation of Palestine. Yeah, those are the main things I have to say.
Speaker 3:I just want to add to this. So I used to be a huge disney fan. I went to. I was an annual pass holder. I went three to four times a year. Um, I have not supported them since nothing. I mean a little bit of a moral conundrum myself because I had a. There's a friend of mine who raised you at disney with every year for uh, food and wine and we would go to ha Halloween Horror Nights and he became terminal and he knew I was boycotting him. It looked like he was going to get better. So he said when I get better, will you go with me one more time? I said I will go with you one more time when you get better and he has recently passed away. So now I'm having this moral conundrum of do I go to honor him or do I not? Because of the boycott. I've been really struggling with that, I have to say. But other than that, I have been boycotting everything I possibly can and not putting any money into anything that supports genocide.
Speaker 1:There is another step. So we've been collaborating with Doctors Against Genocide, which is a very powerful group that's doing a lot of amazing work. Um, so, um, a lot of these organizations have like direct action contacts that are raising money to specifically like purchase and address things like within Gaza and within Palestine. So anytime you're looking into like donating and amplifying to work with organizations that are doing medical missions are really important, because often, actually, one thing that Sulawala is doing is working with medical missions for each person that is able to get through to attempt to bring bags of pet food with them through, and it is as yet unknown whether or not we're able to successfully get stuff through. We have a lot of examples of doctors who are bringing medical supplies that get those supplies turned away at the crossing.
Speaker 1:So continuing to talk about it and really, really putting pressure on organizations about saying let aid through, because at this point in time, even the doctors that are getting through are unable to bring medical supplies in, and that is is um horrifying number one um but to also contributing as, as as dr q was emphasizing, like there there are, um, you know there are just so many um children and um innocent civilians and like, like, like, all all of these people who are just like the, the, just like innocent people, um, uh, that are, are, aren't?
Speaker 1:You know? There's, there's nothing right, there are no resources, and we have kids that are dying of diarrheal diseases that are preventable. So, yeah, get active, get involved and sometimes, if we can't do something perfectly the first way around, like, just you know, just keep at it. You know, just keep at it. Like what I have been really reflecting on, that is a gift that Palestinian colleagues have gifted to me. Is this concept of thinking about steadfastness right To like, be steadfast in this, and it really yeah, so I hope that we can have another conversation at another point in time, that is, you know, where we have some progress all of you seriously.
Speaker 3:This has been a great conversation. I appreciate everything that all of you have said and that you've taken your time to come and be on the podcast. I really appreciate it and I will put the link to the two things that you had mentioned the animal was it the animal? Healthcare workers against genocide? And the other one, the Sulala Is that it? It seems like I only see an Instagram page and a Facebook page. Do they have an actual website?
Speaker 1:Not an actual website.
Speaker 3:yeah, it's through Facebook or Instagram, correct?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the Facebook? There are two, and this is something to also understand. Is that, like, the mechanism of being able to get resources there is systematically and intentionally designed to be almost like feeling insurmountable in some ways to some ways, but you know, and yet we persist. This is why direct action is going to be so critical.
Speaker 3:So thank you again everybody. I really appreciate it and hopefully we'll get some good feedback.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much.
Speaker 5:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Hello everybody and thank you again for listening. Everybody, and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
