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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S3 E:17 Finding Your Power When Everything Feels Out of Control
Matt and Erika explore how people in compassion-based professions navigate feelings of helplessness when confronted with systemic barriers and limitations beyond their control.
• The challenges of working in compassion-based professions (healthcare, teaching, social work, veterinary medicine) within systems that often prioritize profit over people
• America's dysfunctional relationship with grief and death as a "death-defying society"
• The importance of radical acceptance – acknowledging limitations while still taking meaningful action
• Why our positive impacts often ripple outward in ways we'll never witness
• How to recognize early warning signs of burnout before reaching complete exhaustion
• The critical importance of human connection in preventing isolation and burnout
• Using humor as a powerful coping mechanism during difficult times
• Finding meaning in incremental progress when systemic change seems impossible
We encourage listeners to seek community events related to causes you care about - these connections can provide both emotional support and practical avenues for action. Remember that every small positive interaction creates meaningful change, even when you don't see the results immediately.
SOCIAL ISOLATION, LONELINESS, AND MEN'S HEALTH - PMC
The Hidden Costs of Men’s Social Isolation | Scientific American
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I have back with me Erica. Welcome again. Erica Love having you here.
Speaker 1:I love being here, hey, everyone.
Speaker 2:And Erica, you have an awesome topic for today, so Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So today Matt and I were planning on doing an episode about something that the two of us could have a general conversation on, and that's because sometimes, when we're dealing with these, with scheduling on interviews and all these things and the topics we're talking about, sometimes it's nice to just take a little pause and have something a little bit more straightforward to have our brains work on. So today we're going to talk about dealing with feeling helpless. It's something that both Matt and I have some personal familiarity with with our work, and also it's something that exists pretty prominently in the world.
Speaker 2:I think this is and this is such a great topic, erica, because everybody can relate to this, and not even on like a global scale, and you think about something like parenting, you know, and how parents are helpless over some of the things that their kids do, and it is something that touches all of us, whether it's minor or whether it's something as significant as a genocide that's happening, but this is something that every individual has experienced at some point in their life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we we experience it in different ways, also in relation to what some people would call positionality right, Like the distinction of if you're a child depending on your class, status or your gender or where you are in this way, of how systems will approach you. And in some ways, some of this is also related to like control and power. When we feel we have control, or like autonomy of ourselves and our path, that can be a very empowering thing. And when we're navigating, the fact that there's something that we cannot supersede, that is like an immovable object in the scenario that we have to address. Like there's, that can be really difficult for a lot of people to navigate. I know I struggle with it a lot lot.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting dichotomy too, when you think about when you do have power over something and you're, you know it and there was a sense of obviously being empowered. But also the flip side of that is true too is when you realize that a lot of times control is an illusion, and if we can accept control as an illusion, I mean that's the fundamental belief behind addiction treatment is that you have to accept that you don't have any control.
Speaker 1:And when you're working on trying to influence a path, when we have a relationship or more than one person involved in the outcome. So, for example, for you working with patients about making decisions or behaviors that they're working on shifting or reframing things. For me as a veterinarian, you know I have a triangle where I have the client and the patient and my patient I'm advocating for, and then there are limitations to what I can, that, what I can convince other people to partner with me on. You know, in some ways, what Matt and I were discussing about this topic, because there are different ways that we can approach this. We're talking about teachers, social workers, community members that are involved in their community, doctors, mental health care workers, animal care workers like people who are involved in compassion-based professions that are experiencing and this is my opinion. Some people would say there's enough evidence to back this up a relatively compassionless system.
Speaker 2:I would say there's lots of evidence to back that up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lots of evidence so much evidence and, yeah, so part of the conversation that we're having today is how do we, as compassion-filled people who have devoted ourselves to compassion-based professions, how do we navigate that helplessness when we're navigating compassionless systems of power?
Speaker 2:That's a heavy topic, right. I mean we could certainly. There's so much to say about that. I can give you one example that came to my mind, erica, when you were talking about the compassionless society.
Speaker 2:When I was working for a major hospital, there was a staff member that I was really really good friends with, wonderful woman, super compassionate, just an amazing person, and she had actually done a fundraiser for the hospital. So she had raised a significant amount of money by this thing called Swim Across America, where they like swim, like out to the ocean and then they get sponsors for that. And the reason she had done that was because she got diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. So now she had worked for the facility for I want to say, like 15 years, maybe a little bit more than that, and I know she had gone out a couple of times for treatment and then she came back and there was lots of positive movement. But then she had gone out a third time and she had passed away and we had found out from one of her daughters had posted it on Facebook, so that's kind of how we found out.
Speaker 2:And I remember the staff was devastated, the clients were devastated and I reached out to my boss because at the time I was the acting director but wasn't actually being paid to be the director. You know that kind of like stupid stuff. And I had said listen, the staff is really upset, the clients are really upset, can we close down today? And it was like mid-afternoon and the response I got back was sure, you did know she was going to die, didn't you? And then another response I got from our other manager when I let her know she said chin up, it'll get better.
Speaker 2:And I was like, literally, I was horrified by the response. I was like you, this is a, this is a facility that the entire purpose is focused on mental health and you can't even have one ounce of compassion, not only for somebody who worked for you, who provided all of this, but for the people who are working there, who are hurting. And then I remember when they put together this very poorly written memorial for her that I had to correct and send back to them because it wasn't even accurate. But that is one example, I think, of how these are like compassionless systems. Right, it's all about like money, money, money, money, money. I've heard from many nurses that they lose a patient. They need to just they're told, suck it up and move on to the next one. They don't have. They don't have any time to grieve, they don't have any time to process it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I mean, this is something that we talk about in veterinary medicine a lot as well, especially because I might have like a day in the life of a veterinarian, right, you might have like a pretty bad euthanasia and following that with like a puppy appointment, and you know, I think that for me you know why I'm able to do that kind of switch at times is because I am surrounded by people who were checking in on each other, right, that I can have my, my moment. Uh, another thing that helps is that I don't keep myself from crying if I feel like that is something that I'm moved to do in that situation. Yeah, I think my observation is like coming from a little bit outside of American culture, because I just wasn't quite raised in American culture since both my parents were immigrants, I really think that American culture because I just wasn't quite raised in American culture since both my parents were immigrants I really think that American culture, from my observations, has a very dysfunctional relationship with grief and with with death.
Speaker 2:Absolutely we. Actually we are what's called a death defying society, so we like to pretend that death actually doesn't exist, which is why there are so many products out there that are marketed to anti-aging stuff for you to look younger, and why you could lose your mother, you could lose your child, you could lose your partner, and you're given three to four bereavement days at work to kind of get over it and go back to work. Because we don't like to talk about it. Even the way we treat our, our elderly, we, when we put them in nursing homes and care facilities and we don't, we just kind of forget about them because all of that is our denial that we are all dying, right, like we are all aging. We are all dying and we don't like looking at that.
Speaker 1:That's particular to our culture I like my brain does not all dying and we don't like looking at that. That's particular to our culture. I like my brain does not compute, I don't, I don't know, and I think that in some ways, like you know, this also comes from growing on a global scale. We're navigating the space of bearing witness to some of the most horrific war crimes, crimes against humanity, just seeing the complete dehumanization of children, right, and I think something, and I think, if we think about how like this impacts us, like directly, yeah, I think there's this interesting process of how do you live with something that is always there, right, like the presence of death is another example and like how do you just learn to coexist with something that, when you really sit with it, results in this feeling of like at times, it can be that, that feeling of horror, and this is something that I've probably spent more time thinking about than the average person, and I, you know, yesterday I went to a retirement party of a very like chosen family, shall we say family, shall we say.
Speaker 1:She spent her career as a teacher and as a social worker, and so I was at this event with a bunch of social workers who work with housing, insecure populations and you know we talk about like how we can't save everyone right, and you have to be faced with your limitations. You say I will do absolutely everything I can to try and help as many people as possible, as many animals as possible, as many as many you know individual wild animals of a particular group. Like I will do everything that I can. And then how much we are feeling like we're not doing enough and that's not enough.
Speaker 2:I think that all the helping professions that we've talked about, if people are going into it for the right reasons, like you and I, people go into it because they have the, the moral compass, the, the high moral compass to say I really want to help people, I want to make a difference, I want to, I want to like help as many people as I possibly can.
Speaker 2:And of course you certainly have people that go into it for the wrong reason. But you know, most of the time certainly not money, but they, but they, at least in my profession but they, but they go into it for different reasons. So I think when you have that, that moral compass and you, when you have that moral compass and you have that level of compassion and empathy and you understand suffering and you want to help people and you realize you can't help everybody, that sometimes that then turns into a sense of like that's it, I give up and I'm not going to help anybody and I'm just going to kind of not do anything, because there is this kind of all or nothing attitude of if I'm not saving everybody, then I'm not doing enough, and I think we all, we all have a touch of that.
Speaker 1:I mean it's uh, what is it like reward, like those reward systems in our brains? Of course we like seeing success right and I think that we just don't have that level of control, especially when we're having to navigate, you know, like just a lack, a lack of resources, a lack of you know what our country values and and funds, which is not education, health care or like community needs.
Speaker 1:It's prison, prison money, capitalism militarism right and extraction, like I, I. I think that, fundamentally, like both you and I know like we don't really have very many answers right, so most of this is this concept of coping right, how, how do you cope? How do you? What brings you comfort? Because so much of what you are doing and what I am doing we are struggling against systemic issues that are beyond our, our ability to sway as individuals. So so like war, poverty, systemic violence, discrimination, like what are things that help you keep going?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a really that's a really great question. I think it depends on the day. This is probably stuff that you can relate to, or anybody that works in the field. The other thing we do and I will answer that question, but I just want to add one more piece to it the other thing we do is I think we have a tendency to be really unforgiving of ourselves because we hold ourselves to like such a high level that obviously we're human, we're fallible, we make mistakes. And then when we do that, I think we struggle to have that forgiveness to say like, okay, I'm human, I made a mistake, right, like we. We have a tendency to, I think, maybe blow that up a little bit more.
Speaker 2:So what I try to remind myself of is that we don't always know the positive changes that we create, and I'm sure you've had this experience too, where somebody that you might you may have had a conversation with off the cuff or you didn't really think anything of it for whatever reason, and then months or years later, you run into that person and they tell you something like wow, you really changed my life that day because of this, that or the other thing, and you know in that moment wow, you really changed my life that day because of this, that or the other thing. And you know, in that moment you're not really thinking about making any change at all, you're just having a conversation, right? So I think I like to remind myself of those things and say, ok, I don't really. I will never know the amount of people that are impacted by what I say or what other people do.
Speaker 2:We won't know that, but I have faith that it's happening yeah and that's something I something we need to remind ourselves of, because I know one of the things that, especially with students, that they really struggle with, like entry-level students take like a dv example, or like interpersonal violence, when, from a therapy perspective, if somebody tells you that they're in an abusive relationship, you can't report it legally because it's confidential, and entry-level students or clinicians struggle with that because they they want to help the person. So they're like, yeah, but we got to get that person out of their relationship and it's like yes.
Speaker 1:However, right, there's also the right to self-determination, and there's laws and there's other stuff and also like sometimes it's bigger than that right, like in order for someone to exit a situation. There are also other things that they have need of, like we talk about this a lot in veterinary medicine, because there are also people who remain in um interpersonal violence situations because of pets that they're that they share custody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like that out of out of concern for not being able to take their pets with them and also ensure the safety of their companion animals if they left without them. I mean, obviously it's also the same thing that some people in that situation, a lot of people, are not going to be able to bring themselves to do that.
Speaker 2:That's like also another great point as to how there are many systemic problems too, because I mean we could go on and on and on about, like in that, just in DV how that can be really problematic. I know there have been people who I don't know how much it's changed now, but it used to be that shelters didn't allow boys in. So women were in the position of do I get safe for myself and leave my son at home with the abuser or do I stay in that relationship? And that was just one of the barriers. I know some of the other barriers were if women were using drugs or if they were on any sort of heavy-duty mental health medications like Haldol, they would be not appropriate to be in those shelters. So there were so many barriers and I'm sure there still are.
Speaker 2:It's hard for us, you know, to go back to your question about how do you take care of yourself when you realize there's only so much you can do. That's obviously acceptance. I mean, if we want to talk about radical acceptance and understanding like here's what I have control over, and understanding like here's what I have control over, but also not using that, I think, as an excuse to just then just check out, right? So I mean, if we talk about stuff that's going on in Gaza right now, how many times I'll bring that conversation up and people will say things like I just don't have time to worry about that, or it's just too much for me to handle? Well, it's great that you're taking some level of self-care, but you can't take it to the point where you're then just ignorant and do nothing either yeah, I think that this is something like.
Speaker 1:I struggle with this a lot. It comes up like I have to hold space for other people's autonomy in this as well and, of course, like you know, you and I have talked about the fact that, like, like, okay, like I'm, like I'm a person of color, I'm autistic. I like I am a survivor of things that maybe we'll talk about later around it, about wanting to influence and shape the world into a better place where fewer people will have the types of experiences that I have had and sometimes, like people don't like, what I talk about with my therapist very often is where sympathy is a limitation when people don't have that lived experience to understand, or also, maybe, the context to understand how these issues actually impact all of us and how, like, the ship is headed in the very wrong direction and we are all on the same ship, planet, country, like spaces, et cetera.
Speaker 2:And that's a great analogy, because when it sinks, everybody is sinking on it. It's not like there's.
Speaker 1:You know, there's a great analogy right and and so, like, I run into this sometimes with people who who are like well, my limitation is like I just don't have bandwidth for it and I have to kind of balance my desire to like, be like well, at some point or another. You will not have a choice, right and and that's where we have a higher percentage of people in in this cohort of not having a choice but to start to think about these things, and that in itself can be really difficult because, like, you and I were talking about the fact that we have a whole litany of coping mechanisms. I think even it comes up and just the fact that when I asked you that question, we both started laughing right, like like there, there's a thing in both of our professions and also in, like teachers, social, like I see this in every profession where you can say something to each other. We both know, like where you, we've been in what we call the metaphorical trenches, like we all, like we use this and it's kind of frustrating that it's, you know, militaristic language, but it's also kind of accurate of what it feels like at times because you are in the front lines.
Speaker 1:We are frontline medics in alongside frontline medics and basically looking at situations where, like, I am just trying to triage and save as many lives as I can with my words, with my whatever resources that I have, and at times, like knowing that I am actually doing things and involved in things that can drive people crazy, like when we talk about this you know some of the jokes that me and the social workers were sharing with each other we're basically like, we're like all like it's living under conditions of insanity, basically, and so if you can recognize that, then you can also do things to care for yourself.
Speaker 1:In that, and the the degree of of awareness that we have is directly related to our willingness to go find out what is happening. Right, to put yourself into a situation where you can. Right, To put yourself into a situation where you can get to know. You know what. What does it mean to have a meal with somebody who doesn't get food consistently? Right, and, and these are the things that, like, I really try and um, unless people who, like know me, who care about me, who might not have taken action in any particular issue, like I'm asking, like, spend a moment leaning into your humanity of cohorts that have less than you, right?
Speaker 2:okay, yes, and empathy. You know, it's interesting because one of the one of the things I see again with entry-level people struggle where they struggle is with empathy. Right, empathy seems to be the hardest thing to teach people because they'll understand the basics of like, okay, here's what I say and how do we fix it. But that, the empathy that you would get by sitting down and having a meal with somebody who has food insecurity and trying to understand their point of view, that part, I think, is generally missing from most people.
Speaker 1:And yeah, it's hard, especially because I think that I live, I have that privilege of living in a world with a lot of people who do, and so I guess, how do we? I mean one one way that I find to cope is I've gotten better at storytelling right and sharing, because I think that we cannot, we can't. Well, like you say, as the most extreme situation, right With with with genocide, right and the literal process, the strategies that are utilized to create a situation where populations of people, large masses of people, are comfortable and complicit with that happening, is dehumanization right, turning people into numbers, turning people into problems, right. And so I think that that is the thing that I try and also make sure that is not like when I am dealing with a frustration of the inaction of the world, like when I am dealing with a frustration of the inaction of the world that, like that anger doesn't dehumanize like the people that are not directly, and like people in their complicity.
Speaker 1:It's hard, it's something that I know a lot of veterinarians struggle with as far as when they're coming, they have a client that's coming in. Maybe it's a neglect case or something that, like an older person or a mom that has a lot going on that just didn't see what was happening. That happened chronically over time, right Like we have to also maintain our compassion for people who are showing up, maybe not under ideal conditions, maybe not when they could have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that that's like part of what helps me get through is to recognize that this is messy To bring it to bring it full circle to something that you had said earlier, when you're talking about large people being like, large quantities of people being okay with the dehumanization and because we just see things as numbers, look at all the systems that we talked about. I mean that happens in the medical system, it happens in education, it happens everywhere, right, where we just see people as numbers, right, we don't. I mean, how many times have you heard people come from a doctor's office saying that they were kind of rushed in and rushed out and just feel like they're being treated like a number? Because all of that is the prison systems, right, they're given numbers, right. So, like I mean, it's you see how like I think we just do it on so many small scales that it's easier than to condition people on a larger scale to be like, okay, small scales that it's easier than to condition people on a larger scale to be like, okay, they're just numbers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is also very interesting when I talk about how numbers can be used for empowerment, right, because so we talked a little bit about like empathy, like recognizing the conditions that you're in that are beyond your control, and like recognizing that you're doing the best that you can and even if you're like every, every life, a universe, like every positive impact that you have, like that that pebble stone into the water creating ripples, that impacts things beyond you, like those things being things that we can hold on to. Oh my God, I just lost where I was originally going with this Um, relatable that we can hold on to. Oh my God, I just lost where I was originally going with this.
Speaker 1:Relatable Knowledge, knowledge, right, knowledge and context. So this is the interesting thing about numbers, right? So I'm in a science-based just like same thing with mental health care based. Just like same thing with mental health care. Science is utilized a lot for stating what is a value as an intervention, as a therapy, as a what is valid and what is not.
Speaker 1:And yet that distinction between what is quantitative versus qualitative so in my in, in in veterinary medicine and biomedical like I got my PhD through biomedical training program like the numerification of things is considered King, right. Like we have to have this type of statistical analysis and there was a recent podcast that I listened to that I need to send your way. But it's this concept of how, through the process of like number or simplifying data, that is, qualitative things that involve storytelling, things that involve context of individual people, those nuances become erased when we're trying to simplify things to the most straightforward variables to do something, to test something, and this is something that is like there you go, subtext. This is an autistic info dump. This is like how we have to navigate this question of the importance of science, the importance of data, and also how it contributes to the dehumanization of people.
Speaker 2:I am so glad you said that, because that happens in mental health all the time, especially with insurance companies, because all they care about is the numbers on scales. They don't care about anything that's actually happening to the person. What I've known from doing assessments with clients for years is that people are changeable. So somebody can take a scale test today and they can take it tomorrow and the numbers are going to be wildly different. It doesn't reflect what's actually going on in their life, it just reflects what's going on in that moment, and I've also seen people fill things out that they don't understand.
Speaker 2:There was at least two clients that I remember that they filled out a self-assessment form that they were given by our case managers and their case managers are supposed to ask them the questions and fill it out with them, and I remember getting it and thinking something was wrong with it. It turned out the clients were illiterate and they were just kind of filling out what they thought. Do you know what I mean? So, like it's, I'm glad you brought that up because I agree with it. I think the numbers are important, but I also think the numbers don't catch everything, and when you oversimplify it, like you said, sometimes it creates a false narrative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think so. This is this is where I so I think that for me, when we, when we're talking about like coping, so of course, like we talked about support structures of people who can relate and finding connection with other people that have similar or parallel so and and value system where you can have community building and talking about the relatability, because I think that isolation is also a dehumanizing experience. So, knowing that human connection has that level of power and and you probably have some One thing about working with a mental health nonprofit as a board member, historically, there was something that was very useful that came out of my experience about how that personal connection and that having a conversation and having someone feel seen in a moment of deep trauma and feel like there's just somebody that is holding space with them, can empower that person to make that not the longer term traumatic impact that it could be without that.
Speaker 2:If I can find there was a recent article I think it was September of last year. If I can find it, I'll put it in the show notes that it was a study that showed that isolation among men killed them quicker than heart disease. So let me see if I can find that and I'll put that in the show notes. But you're right, isolation is it can really hurt a lot of people and the community is super important. It can really hurt a lot of people and the community is super important and the. You know, part of the problem is that our culture certainly does not promote community.
Speaker 2:It promotes individualism and, like you know the five foot rule. If it you know, if it doesn't affect you more than five feet, it's none of your business.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, yeah, and this is this is something that is very interesting as far as like inter cultural relationships, and I think that's something that, like my partner and I have had discussions about, um, about how that, that like individual power, right, I think that's the most most powerful thing about our each of our individual autonomy is that at every moment in time, we can make a choice about connecting, so we have that. That is an and like this is something that I grew up observing and learning from people who had lived through war and bombardment and like and displacement and, like you know, places of like suspicion, right, because so fascist, right, and the concepts of like fascist government and like reporting on your neighbors. I had a moment, like a big, big moment, the other day where I was listening to an interview of Margaret Altwood I'm terrible with names, but the writer of the Handmaid's Tale, right interview with Ezra Klein, and she was talking about the inspiration for that book was East Germany, because she had gotten into East Germany. I almost vomited, like because that's, you know, my family escaped that area and this concept of creating, this concept of creating like an isolation where you don't know who is safe to talk to, this is the thing that we as individuals can, no matter what the situation, what the systemic power, we have the autonomy of both your own mind about how you think about other people and other cohorts, how you respond to other people, and also what you choose to say.
Speaker 1:Right, because your voice and the way that you treat people is the foundational aspect of our freedom. That can't be taken away. And this is the thing that keeps me going that I know that it doesn't matter how big the system is, how oppressive the system is, that if I can have that compassion and show that compassion as far as my reach and activate people to know that that is their own power, that is a way that so many people and cultures and have survived, even in space. So, for example, these are stories about, you know, japanese internment here in this country. Right, about how kindness between and compassion between people can really save lives.
Speaker 2:And that's what how I keep myself sane during times like this self-same during times like this, and if we could spread that compassion and empathy far enough, hopefully those circumstances would never happen where we would have to do that right. That's the goal. If we could really do that. You know it's funny. As you're talking, I was thinking about.
Speaker 2:One of the feedbacks I often get from my students are things like thank you for allowing us to have our own opinions, thank you for holding space for us to be free in our thoughts. And every time I hear it it really touches me, because that's what I try to do. I try to make it so that everybody can, even if I don't agree with them. I want everybody to be able to have their space to talk about their experiences, because that's how we learn as individuals is listening to other people and saying like okay, how do I, how do I help, or or maybe I'm not saying things correctly.
Speaker 2:And another important thing for us to do to prevent us from getting to that burnout stage is figuring out what the real issues are and kind of weeding out the nonsense, because I mean there's so much nonsense, like I was having a conversation with somebody the other day and they were saying that they were boycotting target still, because of all of the satanic stuff that they did during pride month and I was like, oh my god, first of all, that's not even real. Like if you did two seconds of research, you would see in every reputable news source in the world they've disproved that like and you're boycotting them because that apparently so that's your issue, not genocide. Do you know what I mean? Apparently so that's your issue, not genocide. Do you know what I mean? And not falling trapped to those like stupid clickbait things, right where people are like, oh look, I'm gonna go boycott this because, or whatever I think that's, we have to.
Speaker 1:We have to kind of weed that stuff out because there's so many false issues going on yeah, I think, um, I when, when, when we talk about like when it's impacting us, and like the burnout, and dealing with the noise and the frustration that comes up.
Speaker 1:I think it's it's important to understand. I think that's an important step when you know that like that kind of stuff is bringing that, that frustration, because it's energy, it's entered it, it impacts our energy and our ability to, like, exactly as you said, focus on the things that matter. I think it's important, like when I can recognize that my frustration I call it frustration rising, like I can the the irritability, right, it is a sign of increased risk towards burnout, right, as we think, because burnout is, like the most, one of the more further down the path of impact. And as far as things like burnout and I would love for you to kind of add onto this, because it's like a disinterest you start to be less interested or less feeling about things that matter to you, it is linked and is also on the path to depression.
Speaker 2:And PTSD by the way, I mean emotional numbing and not having responses to traumatic things can also be a result of PTSD.
Speaker 1:Right, and so I think that when I start to see disconnection arise, like in myself, and also that that is like a good warning sign to me that I need to do something to help myself to avoid falling into complete burnout, because, like and also for me, as, like an autistic person, autistic burnout takes a lot longer to recover from for me, in my experience, you know, sometimes people who are at risk for burnout like it can take years to recover. So it's important to also like recognize that these kind of signs that might indicate that you're on the path, and then to know that it might be the time to either redirect or take a shift or do some radical rest or engage in things that are connecting rather than disconnecting which is hard.
Speaker 2:You're're 100% correct it's hard to do because depression, particularly, is something that you have to do the opposite of what feels comfortable in order to get out of it. So for people who are depressed, it feels more comfortable to sit home and not to isolate, sit in bed and not do anything like watch TV or whatever. But what they need to do is they need to be going out and socializing and that is it's like you have to. They have to force themselves to step out of that, to get to get better, and that it's hard to do because it feels so overwhelming. Oh, yeah, I can. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Self-destructive behaviors that may not be outwardly appearing self-destructive, but that's when it happens. We start, like overeating or not sleeping or spending money or doing whatever, checking out, doing high-risk behaviors. What we have to do, and a lot of times, again, it's cultural, because it's so ingrained in us not to ask for help, but to ask for help and say, hey, I need this, like I'm really struggling. I went through a period. I went through a rough period. Say, hey, I need this, like I'm really struggling. I went through a period. I went through a rough period. As you know, I lost two pets and I had some other issues that happened and you know I was going through a period where I was starting to feel burnt out. So I called my mom and I was like, can I come stay there like once a week? I just need to, like, have some sort of other connection, and that's been really helpful. So some sort of other connection, and that's been really helpful. So I mean we have to know what those things are and I'm a big advocate of self-care and I think when people think self-care, they do think in terms of money.
Speaker 2:So they'll say, like, well, that's really expensive. But there's so many things I mean you could go for a hike for self-care. I went to the movies a couple of weekends ago to see a horror movie, but I had the theater all to myself and it was cheap because it was a Sunday night. So the whole thing cost me 20 something dollars and I was like not only did I eat and watch a movie, it was cheaper than going out to dinner. So you know, but little, little things like that. Like it's important for us to just say like, how do I, how do I just check out for right now, the trick is not checking out forever.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think that, especially when you're finding what I describe, when I can tell that my edges are crispy, when I know that I need to engage in radical arrest, or this is why, like, so much art is involved in liberation movements as well is because, uh, you know, the adage picture is worth a thousand words, right, like sometimes, I think part of the thing that is difficult is that we don't always have words right. We don't always have words right. We don't always have words that adequately express the feelings we have about things. And at times I'm doing art or engaging in artistic practice and I do things like I use paper bags, right, somecery stores, some of these things, and work with stuff that can really help, and then these are also things that you can, if you're ready to at that point in time, also invite other people to share space in as that community building component.
Speaker 1:I don't think that I, like there are many times where, especially speaking out, you know, I would say that every professional that I know who has been active in speaking out against the genocide in Gleza has been isolated, experienced isolation because of it, and that community building, or that sharing space with somebody that you don't have to feel like your guard is up around or unsure about whether or not they're going to feel the same way that you are like is is a healing point. So if you're, if you're out there and are deeply impacted by what is happening, the fact that we're witnessing what we are, I definitely recommend looking around to see if there's an event in your area, looking around to see if there's an event in your area where people are gathering in support of Palestine and go. It is a multicultural, multi-faith, loving and compassion-based movement, and if you don't think that that's the case, you've probably been receiving very one-sided information, yep absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fine. Funny is when people, when you share information, especially with all the children that are being murdered there, and people like how can you share those images? And it's like, oh, the problem is me sharing the images, not the fact that it's happening, like that's, that's just, it's wild. The other thing, like I told you that earlier I had gone to, there's a museum near me, the Prududence Grandal Museum, which is somebody I'd never heard of before students and the teachers and what the adversity that they endured and just like the bravery of their soul to keep moving forward to get changes. That is incredibly inspiring. Now the downside of it is hearing it and realizing how much nothing really changes. That's the part that's a little bit disturbing, but the just the human strength to make those changes right, that is incredibly inspiring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that when we think about like the, the impression and the impact that we can have, we were we were talking earlier, before we started recording about like time scale right, scales of time and I think, think that for me, that has been a lifelong exercise. That's also been helpful because when I realized that I am perhaps framing my thinking too much on short timelines and if I understand that perhaps the things that I'm doing now and the impacts that I'm having now are that I might not live to see the shifts that I am aspiring to or hoping for within our country, within our world, within my local community, within people in my life right, that it's not. Like you said earlier, it's not a failure, right, but things take time and I think that that is something that we can all understand. Is that the process of building legacy um is complex, right, the, the, the healing isn't linear.
Speaker 1:We can make progress and then things can rise, because the things that we're fighting against as far as like discrimination, right, and white supremacy, these things, and also the concept of like classism right, we are in a place where there are people in this country that have billions of dollars poured into politics want to go back to monarchistic systems and feudalism. Right Like these are things that we are part of a longer-term struggle. We mightn't see the fruits of our labor and so and again, this is another step so the place that you visited, those are also people that were part of that, that inspiration. It lives on and we can rely on what happened.
Speaker 2:Oh no, Erica.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Something happened I don't know what happened either.
Speaker 2:And then you're back. Where did I? Don't know what happened either, and then I got all choppy.
Speaker 1:Where did I? Where did you lose me?
Speaker 2:Oh God.
Speaker 1:I don't remember. Okay, I think I was just talking. I was talking about legacy, right, like timescales and legacy the fact that the people, that she who made that school right and the things that she's fighting for, those are the same things that we're fighting for, and some strategies that we might need to use are different. And I think that fundamentally, like the thing that I want to message, that I want to send out to anyone listening to this that is feeling overwhelmed and feeling helpless that it is normal to feel those feelings when you're involved in things that have systemic natures to them, and that every little thing that you do is meaningful, every impact that you have, whether or not it's a single moment with a person that you're supporting, whether or not it's a single moment with a person that you're supporting, or a day of volunteering, like every single step that we contribute is important, and the important thing is to maintain a connection, or maintain connections with your community and know that sometimes it takes a long time before we can actually move the needle.
Speaker 2:To add to that, I was part of a research design years ago that looked at IPT, which is interpersonal therapy, and the effectiveness of it with women who were both using alcohol and had depression. What it showed was that for each sober healthy support that was added into their life, they were two times more likely to stay sober, and it was exponential. So that backs up everything you just said about the importance of human connection and that if you can even find one person, that is going to be better than having nobody. So, and that could just be as simple as you know, bringing somebody with you to a rally, but like you don't go by yourself. You know, bringing somebody with you to a rally, right.
Speaker 2:Like you don't go by yourself, you go with a friend, or even something even more minor. Like you go grocery shopping with a friend, like whatever, like just doing something with somebody that you connect with and that you relate to. The problem is with COVID and how that really did the opposite. That pushed people to not talk to each other and become even more islands than they already were, and now we're fighting against that, plus the culture that was already there. So it's certainly can be overwhelming, but I know we wanted to. We wanted to talk about humor as a as a positive coping skill right, Because that is.
Speaker 2:Humor is an incredibly good coping skill.
Speaker 1:So many dimensions of humor and I can definitely say for me personally I got through my divorce through listening to comedy a lot while cleaning. So it was very normal for somebody to come to like visit me and like come by the house because I lived in a multi-person household, me cleaning something and intermittently hysterically laughing so I have to ask who do you have a favorite comedian?
Speaker 1:oh gosh, it would. It would take me quite a bit to try and pull something up specifically without like cross checking to be like has this person been involved?
Speaker 1:in anything that I do not want to endorse. Um, I like puns, I like word humor, like wordplay humor. So there, there are a couple of but, but I think Mitch Hedberg was a really good one for that one and I think that, yeah. So I think that sometimes, if you want to learn more about a community, listen to a comedian from that community that is talking about those things, and people who are focusing on punching up rather than punching down. I think that those things are what I would go for.
Speaker 2:I love copycats. I purposely try to get in the front because I want to be picked on. And I haven't been picked on yet.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to hear about it when it happens. Achieve your goals.
Speaker 2:So I wanted to end with a funny story, but I wasn't sure if there was anything you wanted to add before that, Erica.
Speaker 1:I think that the story that you're going to share, I am here for it.
Speaker 2:It's such a great story so I know you already heard it, but I'll add a little bit more flair to it when I'm telling it. I like to hike and I know we have talked a little bit on a couple episodes about the unnamed serial killer in New England, the rumblings of it. So when I go hiking I usually have the AllTrails app and I download the trail ahead of time so I know what it looks like and on this particular day it was a new place and I did not do that and I was trying to download it and I had no Wi-Fi connection and I had my glasses on my head because I'm looking at my phone and of course I trip, but it was this very long, exaggerated stumbly trip because I kept trying to catch myself and when I finally hit the ground I realized I couldn't see anything because I didn't have my glasses, because they had fallen off my head they had fallen off my head.
Speaker 2:I did find them fairly quickly and I was thinking to myself man, I would not be the final girl in this movie. All I was missing was the high heels running through the woods as they broke Right. Because then I also realized that, because I was looking at my phone when I tripped, that phone was projected somewhere and the whole trail was just this mass canopy of leaves.
Speaker 2:It was like everywhere, like, and I couldn't find it. So I'm like, of course I'm panicking, you know, I'm just. Have you ever lost your phone? Like you know, like that? Like sheer panic of, oh my god how will I? How will I get anything ever again?
Speaker 1:How am I going to find my way home? That's, like my major concern.
Speaker 2:I'm like I cannot exist without GPS. And so I'm looking and it was close to the entrance of the park and there's this young woman sitting under the bridge. So I went to her and I basically explained to her. I was like listen, I just fell, I can't find my phone. Can you call it? So she was nice enough to come call it and I'm thinking to myself, wow, if this was a horror movie, you wouldn't survive either, because I could be the serial killer trying to lure you out here. But she was super nice.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, my phone was on silent, so of course it's not ringing. And then we couldn't do find your iPhone because she wasn't a contact of mine. So it was this really disastrous moment. But you know, it worked out. Obviously, I found my phone and I thanked her. But instead of taking that event and turning it into a God this is such a terrible thing Like, I found humor in it and I was laughing about it the whole time and I'm like, of course this would happen to me, right, like, like I said, I am not the final girl in that movie me right, like, like I said, I am not the final girl in that movie.
Speaker 1:Okay, I do. I do actually have one to add those to it, because this is a theme of like, how do you tell? Like embarrassment? Oh my god, uh, wow, yeah. So, uh, up until this story, I had never had a moment that I would be like this was the most embarrassing moment of my life. Uh, and I can't believe I'm about to say it on a recorded podcast. I love it.
Speaker 1:So I went to UC Berkeley and I lived in unit three, which is like close to the downtown area, and I lived on the eighth floor. So beautiful view, etc. Like great, but what it? So the elevators, the way that they worked is you had to like use a key to call the elevator and I and it was like a you know it was an elevator that had some character. Sometimes it would move while the door was still open. Like there's like all of these things about it that it was like one of those things where you're like this elevator needs a revamp, but of course you know it's an educational system, so like it's not, they don't quite have the resources to do it or something. So there's this thing that you know when, the when the elevator door is closed, you know, like the automatic thing, you stick your hand and you whack the side of the door and it opens again. Yeah, not that day oh no so I go in.
Speaker 1:So I'm, like you know, a little distracted etc. Coming in from class I reach my hand to try and knock the thing to open the elevator door. It doesn't and it closes on your arm on my arm and it's caught, so my wrist caught, so I can't pull my hand out, and so I'm just. That's terrifying.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I'm processing. I'm processing this information, and so the first floor is entirely boys.
Speaker 1:The first floor of the building is all boys, and so, of course, while I'm sitting there, like close to this elevator, just standing there with my wrist stuck in it, the door opens and the most absurd the stairwell opens and some guys come out and the most like absurd things start going off in my head, like it's just like the t-rex, if you don't just like, don't say anything, like I'm still like trying to figure out what's happening, what to do, and all of a sudden I hear from behind me something like um, do you need help? And I am like no, I'm okay. And I like I reach over with the key. I have enough ability to like key the door again, and then it opens. And then I walk in and the door closes.
Speaker 1:And probably about floor three is where I like my hands are on my face, being like oh, my god, what just happened? And of was so, and of course, it was someone that like uh, you know one of the guys that I saw relatively regularly like and uh, a couple days later, like uh, he held the door open for me and I just like walked straight by. I was like no, like, no, like I was just like I am so like I'm probably bright red right now, uh, but yeah, that was like the most I, to this day, I always think about. It's just like a t-rex don't move. If you don't move, it will be in the scene.
Speaker 2:That's hysterical oh man, I also, you know, when you were telling me about it. It also has a like it's reminiscent of the movie Final Destination. That's what you know, and I'm going to see that tonight. Actually, I'm going to see the new part of it. So glad it didn't end that way oh my god.
Speaker 1:yeah, I just so. Yeah, I think that being able to find humor in whatever situation is very helpful, so thanks for listening to us, and I hope that you got a good chuckle out of it too listeners, absolutely, and thank you for sharing that, erica.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, and every time I see you, I'm going to think T-Rex now. Oh my God, yes, let's go for it you know, next time you're going to get one of those inflatable outfits on and put it on.
Speaker 1:I was so, still, I was so still. I was like a chameleon blended into the wall. That's awesome. Oh man, but not enough.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you everybody for tuning in again and thank you, erica, for being here. All right, take care everyone, hello everybody, and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
