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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
PTSD and Coming Out: A Palestinian American's Journey
John Demarjain shares his emotional journey of coming out as a gay Palestinian American, revealing the complex intersection of cultural identity, family values, and personal authenticity in Western and Middle Eastern contexts.
• Western culture emphasizes (by design) individualism and independence, at the cost of community while Middle Eastern culture prioritizes family and religion
• The concept of "pinkwashing" attempts to force the LGBTQ+ population to turn a blind eye to genocide "in their own best interest".
• Both selective empathy and performative politics create barriers to genuine human connection and social progress
• Cultural and family expectations around names, lineage, and acceptable pairings extend beyond sexuality to religion
• Meaningful advocacy requires altruistic action and personal connection rather than simply consuming mainstream news
• The group pays tribute to Mohammed "Medo" Halimy, a Palestinian content creator who was killed in Gaza, by the genocidal IDF
- Erika discusses the lie that Arab countries are unilaterally hostile to the LGBT community, as Israel bombs a prison with 100 Trans people in it.
Brief discussion about the impact of altruism
Israel Killed 100 Imprisoned Trans Iranians. I Could Have Been One of Them. | Truthout
In Conversation With Afeef Nessouli, the Journalist Covering Queer People in Gaza | Them
Iris Prize 2024: Palestinian Dima Hamdan wins LGBTQ+ film award
https://www.imdb.com/video/vi1098033433/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
https://www.tiktok.com/@medohalimy?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc
We will continue speaking about Gaza until the genocide ends. We believe in taking real action - whether donating, sharing stories directly from affected people, or challenging institutions. Make a difference today by connecting with those impacted by conflict around the world.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. Today I have John DeMargian back with me and we're going to be talking about his coming out story and some cultural stuff that he wants to share as well. But before we start I have to tell a story. John and I were just talking about some of the formative politics that happens particularly on the Democratic side, and I live in Connecticut. As everybody knows, connecticut is a Democratic state.
Speaker 2:So I live in a really small town and we have six zip codes. Now we have six zip codes because there's some weird issue with the post office that we only have PO boxes. We don't actually have like a delivery system. So we share, we borrow the zip codes from all of the other like six surrounding towns, which is really confusing because there are streets that are also in those towns with that zip code. So you can imagine how much chaos that creates in terms of things like taxes and mail and our mailing address is different than what's on our license and it's incredibly confusing. And the other thing is because we don't have an actual recognized post office. We don't exist federally. Therefore our school always has problems getting money. During COVID we didn't have any cases of COVID, because the town doesn't exist and it becomes this huge problem. So now we have been fighting against this for a really long time now. The town actually does have a zip code, it's just not used. The town actually does have a zip code, it's just not used.
Speaker 2:And we have two, our Congressman, joe Courtney, and our Senator, mrs Ann Chris Murphy, who I will say, are both owned by APEC. That's a whole other story. They have tried and I'm using air quotes to correct this before and they seem to always have problems as to why they can't get it done. Now they blamed the Republicans before saying it was because Republicans somehow shot down the bill, because, god forbid, we have a functioning zip code. But they just put this bill together because we've been giving them a lot of pressure and the bill actually read success that I mean not the bill, the news article success.
Speaker 2:The town of Scotland now officially has one zip code. Now, this is why people really need to read beyond the headline, because Scotland already had one zip code. So they actually didn't effectively change anything. They just basically reinvented it and said like Scotland now has one zip code. But if you read all the way down to the bottom of the article. It says Senate will not be hearing this bill.
Speaker 2:So they effectively did absolutely nothing, but they put it out. It was even like on the news and everything that Scotland's going to have like one zip code now Nonsense, performative. It's not going to change at all, and I think that is a testament to a lot of the stuff that we've been seeing recently. So I just wanted to tell that story first, and we are going to circle back to that story later on when we're talking about other stuff. John, I'm going to, oh, and Erica Hi, erica, erica also just arrived as well. So we're going to start off with John, if you want to talk about your coming out story, and then, if Eric and I, are you okay with us jumping in and asking questions?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, I think it's probably harder for me to figure out where to start, so perhaps if you had a question, that could probably help me get started or so.
Speaker 2:Well, how did well actually? When did you come out? When did we start with that? Was it recent? Was it?
Speaker 1:I came out first to a young lady that was two years older than me and she was a nurse in the college I went to. I went to Purdue, and she and I were just praying though in her religious, religious perspective for God to watch me and to protect me, and she's a very sweet person. I unfortunately haven't kept in touch with her, but she was, I remember, the first person I came out to and then the second person I came out to. We were doing a statistics project together.
Speaker 1:He's somebody I actually was just talking to and playing board games with two weeks ago virtually, and he's one of the most comical, bright guys that I know of and he's very supportive. I remember we went and got KFC chicken to just celebrate and he was just really happy for me. So I would say that those were probably the first two individuals that I had come out to, and that was about seven to eight years years ago. So, yeah, I didn't come out to family first, but I felt more comfortable coming out to people that were more friendly and consistent in how they would talk and treat.
Speaker 2:If I could ask you another question, if you don't mind, because we came out during different decades, right? So it was different when you came up versus when I came out, in terms of the messages that people were getting. So what messages did you get before you came out about being gay or what it was like to be gay, or society's perception, or your family's perception? What? What kind of messages did you get?
Speaker 1:Well, I was still living in Northwest Indiana at that time and I remember that there weren't a lot of people that were out, let alone I didn't really know of anybody that shared that. They were a part of the LGBTQ plus community community and if I was talking to some people especially a lot of my social connections were at the gym there were quite a number of guys that would be more afraid of essentially their own masculinity and sometimes I've dealt with guys at the gym where they would say, oh, I don't want to appear gay or I don't want to. I don't want you to think that I like men or so, and these comments would just come out randomly at times and I was just very perplexed. And these guys were especially around my age and it also felt disappointing just because from where I grew up, it was one of the most blue districts in the state of Indiana. So I would think that there would perhaps be more openness, but I would say, still people around my age, I think a lot were open. But I also think that there were a lot, of course, that were very, mostly men that felt very insecure with their own masculinity and did not want to appear to look or be gay, essentially In terms of my parents.
Speaker 1:I remember, probably when I was in middle school, I just threw the idea out to them and said, hey, mom and dad, I think I may be gay. And then my dad said, no, like you're not. And then my mom was just, she didn't really say anything, but she pretty much agreed with him and I never revisited that idea until, I would say, again in 2019, or so, and that's when I started coming out to my mom and and sisters. But yeah, and then I didn't come out to my dad until May of 2023. So about a little over two years ago.
Speaker 2:You have also. I know we were talking before we started recording that you're so. Your mom is. Your mom's side is Palestinian.
Speaker 1:So both my parents are Palestinian? Yeah, my dad is both Palestinian and Armenian in terms of his ethnicities, although he was born and raised in Chicago, and my mom is 100% Palestinian and she was born and raised in Jerusalem, and then she moved to the US when she was 26 or 27.
Speaker 2:How did that factor in culturally into coming out?
Speaker 1:I would say this has been something that I've been even curious about and I'm still learning, as I'm asking my mom questions and people that I've been connecting with in Gaza or have families there or outside of Palestine. And what I've learned is that my mom said, in probably one of the best sentences, that the Western world has a very different set of values, and one of them is more about independence and individualism, where it's more focused about being who you are and what you want, whereas I would say overseas, in Western parts of Asia or even in a lot of other countries in the Middle East, your values are centralized upon family and religion. So, with her values being more towards religion and family, for her it was more about what is appropriate or acceptable with her family, appropriate or acceptable with her family, her kids, her husband. That would appeal towards her family and religion as a whole, and it's not even just with family, but a lot of Middle Eastern families would ask. Even an Uber driver I had, when I came back from Columbus, ohio last week, asked me what's your last family's last name? Because even your last name would hold a lot of meaning, or that there would be perhaps a better way to understand or connect with those families, which isn't something you tend to hear in the Western culture.
Speaker 1:So, with coming out to her, it was really tough, because she kept on reiterating that.
Speaker 1:You know, as a Palestinian Christian, she believed that God saw me with a woman and to have kids, and so did my oldest sister, and my dad definitely was the worst person that I came out to or that I was vulnerable with, and he was the worst person when it came to how he reacted in his vulnerable state. Vulnerable with, and he was the worst person when it came to how he reacted in his vulnerable state. What I will say, though, is I think my mom and, in a way, my dad, have been doing better in terms of better, in terms of adapting towards the idea of Western culture, and I'm not saying that they should do that. I'm just saying that them being more open to it is helping them connect with me as well as I've been able to try to reflect and connect with their values or their way of thinking. So I would say that again, off the top of my head, individualism and independence are two core values that less promotes and I'd say propagates is the appropriate word, and then in, especially the middle east.
Speaker 2:it's more about family and religion as the core values there's so much to unpack and what you said, john, I actually wish I was taking notes now, because as we were talking, I kept thinking about stuff and I didn't write it down. When you brought up the individualism, the only thing I would add to that is my perception of the country. And, erica, tell me what you think as well is that it's individualism at the expense of other people. It's not just about being who you are. It's about being who you are with absolutely no regard for anybody else around you.
Speaker 1:I have a theory and I'd love to hear your guys' opinions on this. When I consider the decades in which America was succeeding or beginning its succession towards better education, more job opportunities, opportunities to own homes, et cetera, in the 50s and 60s, parents of typically the boomers silent generation, maybe some Gen Xers, their parents, were largely focused and involved with World War II or the repercussions of it, and there was a lot of fear and PTSD that a lot of these individuals that either served or were assimilated into taking those actions and being supportive of this country and its allies, and a lot of them after it didn't it, came back. But I also think during that time period and after that time period, historically perhaps a lot of parents had taught their kids, who are now much older and unfortunately running a lot of the governments, to focus on themselves, because it's hard to trust the world. Because when, of course, there's a large war going on and there's so much unpredictability as to what's going to happen and there's not as much accuracy with what you're hearing in the news and you're just trying to think about how you can survive, it ends up turning into a situation where now a generation is being raised by those that have a lot of unresolved trauma and anxiety that's not being well managed and this creates a generation that's more focused on helping themselves out, and I think that was part of what promoted this whole shtick of the American dream in a way where you can come to the US if you focus and work so hard, with some luck and perhaps networking but it's usually the hard work that keeps on being reiterated then you can achieve the dream of owning your own property, having your own kids and family. You'll have safety.
Speaker 1:But I unfortunately think that, with how a lot of parents perhaps that had a lot of unresolved trauma and anxiety, it unfortunately led to generations in the 50s, 60s and 70s that perhaps considered their own, just consider more of their own needs without also considering the needs for their peers or for others, even though that they were living in a much better time with more opportunities and chances to succeed, and instead of considering that they wanted to continue this for others, especially for their kids or grandkids. It's not really working out in that way, and now people are very bitter about these things. So that's just my theory as to, perhaps, why individualism is taken at the, in which the word itself from what you're describing, matt, is taken in the context of focusing on yourself and neglecting other people's individualism, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It's by design. I mean, it is set up to be that way because it is much easier to control people if everybody is too busy fighting over resources, fighting over rights, fighting over everything and we don't have that. When I went to Italy, one of the things that stood out to me the most was how much of a community it was. Walking around in Rome in the morning and seeing all of these fruit stands and vegetable stands open and all of these people out helping each other, and I was like, wow, that's not what it looks like in the US by any means, and I have a theory about this. So you know how.
Speaker 2:There was all the funding cuts to aviation and now we're seeing planes being grounded all over the place. I can't even open up the news today without seeing something about flights being canceled, emergency things landing. I think it's dangerous for us. This is why they try to get rid of TikTok. It's dangerous for the country, for the powers that be, for us to know what's happening in the world. And you know how in Israel, they were stopping people from fleeing by shutting down the airports and telling people they had to stay there. I think we're heading there. I really do.
Speaker 1:I think it's incredibly crazy that there's a large percentage of Israeli citizens that do not respect Benjamin Netanyahu and want him out of power.
Speaker 2:Probably more than half the country. I mean, from what I've seen on, like the protests, it's a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to add, when you were talking about TikTok, matt, I mean the whole essence, the essence of our US government arguing we need to get rid of TikTok because China must be taking our data or is using our data for their own purposes, right, I mean, the most outstanding statistic that, if I recollect, was TikTok as a social media platform, of course, not only retains a lot of younger audiences, but it's overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian.
Speaker 1:You look at the searches for what people tend to watch or or create TikToks for politically, it's Palestine, and I don't like to use the term politically just because, unfortunately, it's now become a topic of debate or interest for people to determine if a certain group of people should be undergoing ethnic cleansing and a genocide. But to get back to the topic of discussion, I was just laughing when I saw and just in a sad and just an insulting manner of laughing of wow, I cannot believe that you want to squish so many younger people's voices, or you just want to squish people that want to express their free speech and their care and sentiments towards Palestinians, and that's why you want to buy TikTok and turn it into a US private business or so. And I mean again, there's a part of me that I don't want to get too far off or detract on the topic, but the other comment I want to share is I have no idea why a lot of people that are still in our government, that are in their 50s, 60s, 70s, maybe 80s I have no idea why a lot of them are actively making policies or want to legislate, documents or contracts like the big America, because they think that there's no future for them. So might as well just focus, just continue to focus on ourselves and our dog owners, aka APAC. Yeah, I mean, it's just very sad and, as I mentioned before, that's still one reason why I want to eventually run for Congress or work in Congress, just because a cause of living is the biggest issue here. And, of course, I want to be a big advocate for Palestine. Do you mind if I share one other quick thing related to this?
Speaker 2:Sure, I just I did want to make a comment. But go ahead, I'll hold it. I'm just going to write a note of it.
Speaker 1:For some reason I think the succession of the Republican Party is because they have a lot of loudmouth that reiterate their points constantly. I look at the Democratic Party and I think, oh my gosh, a lot of the older, well-established Democrats are just cowards. It's not, of course, just based on the decisions they say, but if I were to work for Congress or when I start my campaign, I'm going to be a loudmouth. I'm going to be somebody that's constantly going to just talk loudly and have little to no filter on a lot of and even if it's used against me, I'm just going to continuously spew out why it's being used against me. But I don't think we have that type of representative for the democratic party.
Speaker 1:We don't have candidates that are loud, unless this isn't really necessarily a politician, but Medi, who's a if I'm Medi's one of the greatest debaters.
Speaker 1:He is like to me what I would call like, not in a negatively allowed mouth, but he is a progressive that is spewing so much concern and empathy and care, with also statistics and facts, and I think connects well with a lot of people, and we don't really have that here for the liberal side or the progressives or people who associate as democratic socialists or social democrats.
Speaker 1:For some reason it's concentrated in the Republican side and yet so many people love drama and would rather be attracted to drama and they would associate that with people who are loud, people who are over the top, who expend so much energy and for some reason, we don't have that type of representative or certain individuals that are doing this for the Democrat side, that have that confidence. Instead, we have a lot of people who are just very polished and have to pick and choose their words but are just doing it because they have dog owners of political action committees and so many people are hurt and want to scream and have been and they just don't do that in return because they think of an established, an older, established way of communicating is trying to work with the other side or not not being a potty mouth. So I mean, if I were to run, I'm definitely going to be a potty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my, my opinion about this is that there are there's only one side, and I think we need to really start acknowledging that because, as you said, the people who we have in the Democratic office are cowards, but they're also bought and owned by APEC, just like the Republicans, and we know that what the Democrats do, if you ask me, is more insidious, because they pretend to be doing stuff and they're actually snakes, just like the Republicans. At least the Republicans admit they're snakes, right, they don't try to hide it. I mean, we saw this with AOC recently, who, crying the tears of a clown about like how sad she is about everything that's going on, and then both you know, denies and allows 500 million more dollars to go to Israel to kill people in Palestine. The other thing that I thought was really interesting is I read an article about how performative her and Bernie are, which I already knew anyway, and something that was pointed out that I never thought of is to remember when she did the photo op at the detention centers during Trump's presidency and she was crying and talking about how awful the conditions were for people with detention centers. Well, check out what she said during Biden's presidency Absolutely nothing, not one thing, and there was actually more people removed under Biden's presidency than under Trump's first presidency. Guess when she started to get vocal again when Trump became in office again. It's just 100% performative. And now she's doing the whole.
Speaker 2:I don't know why people are mad at me. I don't like't, like. Here's my explanation. It wasn't that I was giving the money for offense, I was giving the money for defense. Oh, okay, well, you know what it's still, you're still supporting genocide, so let's like not, let's knock that shit off.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I think we have to be careful of doing I saw a friend of mine sent me a video the other day that this person was both Muslim, palestinian and Israeli and he was talking about how we can't, like we have to focus on the people, right, so like, the people are. A lot of the people are innocent in this, and he had a great message until he started to criticize all white women and I was like, okay, we can't do this right. So like, if we're going to come together as a community and come together as a group, we can't do, we can't be ageist, we can't be sexist, we can't be racist, we can't be, we can't do any of that stuff. Ageism is just another way we divide people by talking about like the boomers and Gen X and this and that, talking about like the boomers and jet x and this and that. We're constantly dividing people constantly, and I think we have to stop doing that, because we all live in the same space and we're not the enemy. The enemy is the people controlling us.
Speaker 3:Right, they're the enemies so, fundamentally, I think there are a lot of things or themes that we've gone through and a component of individualism like, for example, this combination of uh, what I would say, my opinion is that in the united states, we have a combination of toxic individualism and toxic groupthink together, right and um, that is the effect of individualism being so normalized that natural human inclination as social creatures right. As we look at anthropological and behavioral context, humans are social animals. That's just what we are. And when we talk about this concept of different ways that communities are built, when we think internationally and for me, as someone with and you know, yes, I'm an American citizen, I was born here, I spent a lot of my time growing up in or spending time with family abroad and had a little bit of the privilege of having a global experience Collectivism in the context, and America has such fears of it. Right, you say something collective and instantly they're screaming that you're a communist or a socialist, without understanding the context of political theory versus political, like implementation, and that is always influenced, is influenced by power structures and, fundamentally, each culturally versus across the world.
Speaker 3:We have some unified stories, specifically, john, referring to students, right, and the oppression of students. If people spend time, you know, looking at historical context, students and the youth have always been the beginning of liberation movements, regardless, like doesn't matter what country you are in right, does not matter the religious background of that country. We probably, if we went online, we could probably find six, seven, eight instances, and even within the last two years, right, big political movements, big social movements sparked by students who have the perspective of what does it take to live and survive in what is being made right. So, john, I absolutely agree with you in the trauma that comes from war. So my parents both had war veterans as their parents, or people impacted by war who were in some ways deprived or had a type of militarism or authoritarianism put into the relationship without explanation or without justification, and I think that's a big thing of how we communicate those stories. I don't know if there are any studies on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the actual discussion of consequence of war and that impact skips a generation right, that people are more likely to talk about that with their grandchildren than they are their children, and this was something that was replicated in mind.
Speaker 3:So we have a couple of things here. We have people who grew up with a distorted space and communities. There was also a lot of movement happening that time, so people were moving across the country for different opportunities and we had a fracturing of this community-based relating. And so within the United States has continued to layer, both with that separation that frontiers, people going to go to a new place, which is basically a colonizer mindset, right, and we're disconnecting from community, disconnecting from land, disconnecting from accountability right, or a shared accountability of space, and then in that continuous isolation that happens.
Speaker 3:You see, that really strange reaction of we are so individualistic but are so dependent on these natural inclinations we have to be part of a group that to actually speak out against a group is very unusual and usually something that happens more on the spectrum as far as, for example, autistic individuals there are a couple of studies on this are more likely to speak out about things that they observe that are not right.
Speaker 3:Right, and I think I really appreciate your expression about how your family is working through this. How your family is working through this because as far as understanding or accepting difference, right, and how to continue to express love, of course, because and I don't want to take us in too much of the different direction, but I think it's still important to speak on pinkwashing, the justification of genocide, because they're like well, if you were a queer person person in the middle east, you would just be thrown off a roof and like there are multiple accounts of the um iof basically not acting in actual manipulation of queer people in pal as far as threatening them and endangering them in order to push for information.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you say that, erica, because John and I were talking about that before we started recording. That's actually in that book I was talking about genocide. Bath is a section on whitewashing.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm not, I'm sorry pinkwashing and that actually will kind of bring us back to what we were, where we were going with John's story is coming out in a family where you are Palestinian, what it made me think of a movie. Have you ever seen the movie out in the dark or have you heard of it? I saw this movie a long time ago. I just looked it up. It came out in 2012. No-transcript experience.
Speaker 2:I have never run into homophobia from anybody that is Middle Eastern. I have run into homophobia from plenty of white Christians. I have run into homophobia in this country, all over the place, but I can honestly say I have never run into any blatant homophobia from a Muslim or a Middle Eastern person. Now, I know that that I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I know it does exist, but statistically speaking, I've run into none. So what? What was that? How did that impact you? Coming out, john? Were you like? What were your messages about being gay, as a Palestinian or I don't know if your family, if they practice Muslim, muslim? Just what was your experience with it?
Speaker 1:like three things off the top of my head that I'd like to share regarding these. They're a bit different, but there's connections between them. But to answer your question first, matt, I would say so I grew up as a Christian, although I'm now an atheist or non-religious, and my mom grew up as a Palestinian Christian, and in Palestine there's a minority group, even though there's still a lot of them, that's a minority of Palestinian Christians. And, in terms of me being gay, as I've become more open to a lot of Middle Eastern people that are Americans, middle Eastern Americans, or even those that are overseas are Americans, middle Eastern Americans, or even those that are overseas what I've come to notice is my mom, being a Palestinian Christian, has similar thoughts and views, especially towards Palestinian Muslims, even though they're practicing two different religions. They still had these thoughts of. This is an infection or this is wrong. This goes against the religion, this goes against our family as a core value. This is not what you should be doing and you're going to be punished, and that's how it was discussed, in a way, with my parents. Now, that's one thing and that was, of course, it's really tough to hear, but I've also learned, as a more of a long-term thinker that I've had to learn how to set boundaries with them.
Speaker 1:When I didn't talk to them for several months, family, again, is a core value for them and even though religion and family are two big core values, they wanted to still have that connection. And then they told me we don't want to lose, they'll want you to be with us, we care about you, and I've had to tell them, and I've had to explain to them then, when they were in a very vulnerable place, that as much as you care, that family is one of your core values and religion is another. You're almost caught in the web of having to pick between which ones you want, whereas you also need to consider that it's not necessarily a bad thing that a core value more so in the Western side of the world independence and not having to feel that you need to have to control or have this idea of what your family has to be. It's okay, and I think that this was an opportunity for them to be more vulnerable with questioning that what they were ingrained with, and that's where it's been a bumpy road, but it has gotten better. But I've also encountered a lot of Arabs from the Middle East, or even Arab Americans, and most of them are not out to their families.
Speaker 1:I have a friend group in Chicago that are from Lebanon, jordan or Jordanian American and none of them have told their family close family and they've been in relationships, or one of them has a partner that's in a long-term relationship, and when I ask them what's their motivation or motivation, they say, oh, this is just private information, this shouldn't have to be discussed. But I think that they're thinking of it in the short term because they don't want to disappoint their family, because that's been a value that's been ingrained into their headspace for a while, whereas with me growing up in America, I feel as if that partially did come to my head space about wanting to be who I am, but I also think a lot of it came back to my environment in terms of I spent years sitting in professors' office hours, asking them questions about their lives and who they are and doing a math and statistics degree and learning about questioning things, proving theorems, learning about definitions, learning about how to be a better critical thinker. That ended up making me think so much more differently than how my parents think and developing my own values that align with who I want to be as a person. And the other thing I wanted to share, which I think is underrated I don't think this is spoken enough when I went to parts of Palestine in 2014, that was the only time I met most of my mom's side of the family and, just once, most of them. And now I'm not saying I'll never see them again, and now I'm not saying I'll never see him again. Maybe there will be another time. But what I wanted to share was my oldest cousin.
Speaker 1:My mom has nine other siblings and she's the ninth, but my oldest cousin who I think is in her 40s late 40s now, perhaps, when I met her and her husband right, she grew up as a Palestinian Christian. He grew up as a Palestinian Christian. He grew up as a Palestinian Muslim. They're married and what's interesting was I learned that a lot of my mom's relatives her siblings and her aunts and uncles were discouraged when they wanted to get married. They're straight and they have a child who they I don't know what sort of religion or religions. They raised her, but they met because they were their actors. They share that passion for the creative work and for doing performances, but they come from two different I'd say stringent backgrounds, when it comes to their religious affiliation, I learned that my grandma, or my mom's mom, was not happy at all, and I don't think she was at their wedding. I don't think that's even spoken as is to a situation in which, with these Palestinians, it's not even just about homophobia, but even having a difference in your religion, that itself can also cause dysfunction to what is deemed normal or appropriate.
Speaker 1:Again, I think something that's underrated is in these cultures, middle Eastern culture specifically, and maybe I shared this before with Matt I'm not sure if I shared this with you, erica, but your last name is profound. Even, for example, when I was coming back to Chicago from Columbus, my Uber driver, who shared he's from Jordan when we were talking, he asked me randomly what's your mother's last name, and I said Esfor, before she changed her name to Demarjian. Oh, I know the Esfor family. He was sharing a lot of details about them and connections he's made when he was overseas. And I don't think it's just about family that's by blood, that's close, but even family that marries and becomes a part of this last name. That itself is a tribe, that itself is a unit. How important your last name becomes. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Sorry to interject, but I think this is also more common in it's more common internationally as far as, like the name and I think it's it relates to name and place, right. So, um, like you're talking about as far as kind of like a village or clan, right, it has an identity that's associated with with a region and a land and place. It happens more commonly in the United States, especially with Indigenous communities, as far as the very specific components of where they are from, for region and land and connection to land and also that history of community connections too. So, yeah, absolutely not something as common in US culture. Thank you for sharing this component.
Speaker 2:It does highlight the importance of community, though, why community is so important and why we are falling apart as a country, because of how much divisiveness is here and how much it is this insidious me, me, me, generation, right so to to go back to, because I just want to go back to the pink washing for a second, because I'm not.
Speaker 2:I just want to make sure the listeners and also know what that is is that it's this, this belief that gay, the lgbtq community plus community, should be pro-genocide because there is alleged homophobia in Palestine and therefore, because of that, we should want them all to be dead, and that is the most absurd and ridiculous thing ever. I don't even care if it's true. I don't care if the entire country is homophobic. I would never then say that they should all be killed. It's, it's such a false equivalent and it's stupid. And you know, john, you had said earlier somebody said it was like chickens supporting KFC, and the same thing was said to me at one point in time. And I will never support genocide. I don't care, and there's nothing anybody is going to ever say that's going to change my mind on that.
Speaker 1:I really want to first say like, really, I thank you, matt, like very kind of what you're sharing, and I wanted to share with you, erica, that I was talking to Matt about this before we started the podcast. I was making some recent YouTube videos. I would say that I read are ones where people say oh, I see your Palestinian flag behind you. You must support Hamas, or how can you support these people that hate gay people or queer people? And it's exhausting, just simply because I'm baffled that a minority group and the way I describe it to Matt I know it's all under pinkwashing, but the way I describe it to better understand it is as a gay Palestinian people are telling me you have to choose between one of two parts of your identity and there's a correct answer that you have to pick, and that correct answer is based upon my entitlement to myself, which you need to be a part of the gay group, because that's what's going to make us feel safer, that's going to make us feel more comfortable. What's unfortunate is being gay and being Palestinian are parts of my identity that I did not choose to have or to be born with. So the fact that I'm being told that this entire group of people and this overgeneralization of Palestinians and people would just associate them to be all Muslims, which of course, as I mentioned, there's also a Palestinian Christians and other sorts of different. I don't know if denominations is the appropriate term, but I think that it could be a good term to use amongst religious affiliation for Palestinians. But and I mean, excuse my language, it's just, I have to call these people out and just say you are a fucking delusional person. If that's what your argument is, because I think at the root of it is, you're just racist and I, and also I think at the root of it you're taking, you're taking the stigma or and because you're associating this group that practices Islam or people that practice Christianity and then say, well, I've had negative experiences with them, and then you perhaps or likely end up overgeneralizing it to an entire group and you're saying this to me the level of self-awareness to even consider wait, what am I saying? Are my words impacting this person greatly? So the answer is yes, because, again, it's so absurd that I have to pick and choose between parts of my identity just to fit in with your selfishness, and it's just shocking that the number of comments I've had with that and that's also a big stigma that, like I want to share further, that you know I've been donating to nonprofits like Doctors Without Borders and I, and I have several friends in Gaza that I actively talk to each day and donate to one of them, his sister is Palestinian and Muslim and she lives in Turkey and is working there.
Speaker 1:But unfortunately, her brother, who I've met and connected with and who's in Gaza, and some of her other family members, like her mom and siblings, are there still. And I told I told him first that you know I'm gay, and then I told her that too, because she was curious and want to understand who I am, my life and stuff like that. Now, her initial reaction this was a few weeks ago her initial reaction was oh, but why would you choose to be gay? Or that seems like an unfortunate infection or so. Now, of course, some people that may have had it or heard enough of it would just think, oh, screw you. Or oh, you're, you're an enemy to me or something Right. That's perhaps what some of these people that have said these things to me would think. However, I've also come to understand that she comes from an environment where I think there's a lot of rigidity in terms or it's very rigid in terms of the beliefs that she's instilled, you know, and I began to share with her. No, I don't consider this an infection.
Speaker 1:I'm actually very happy with this part of who I am and it's something that I used to pray about. I used, you know, when I was religious and I used to constantly question and try to understand. And as I was sharing this with her, she's just like well, you know, no matter what, I just want to support you. And her words were you've been donating to and taught. You've been donating to my family. You've been very kind to my brother. My brother really likes talking to you. He's very happy to hear your words. My family really appreciates you. And she said no matter what, and I told her about my ambitions to run for Congress. She's like no matter what, and she even knows I do OnlyFans. But she told me, no matter what, I want to support you. You're so kind to us and you've been nothing but supportive and I just want to be supportive towards you, not transactionally, but just because genuinely you're a very kind man. It was her work.
Speaker 2:That's a great story, John.
Speaker 1:Yeah and thank you. And I think that, again, this comes from a place of being vulnerable and taking a chance of just let me be open with somebody who I've never met, but it's a demographic that perhaps a lot of people would fear, simply because of associated religious trauma or because they could be racist. And this message I'm trying to share is, even though this is just one person, imagine how many people would be saying this because you're human and you understand that they it's not that they deserve to live, it's that they should live, and that people that should live need to. All you know, we all should live and be happy, and that's why I'm donating, that's why I'm listening and talking to these people, and I've had days where I'm crying at work and talking to my manager I need to go take 15 minutes for myself in the conference room just and it's because I'm talking to these people and I'm talking to her and her brother, and what I've learned is they just say like from some of these people, and even with my parents, they say like some of these people, and even with my parents, they say like, you're just, we love you, you're our son, you're, you're trying to help yourself, you're trying to help others and they would tell me just be careful.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I still get those messages from them too at times. Like my mom would say be careful what you say on youtube, she'll watch my videos and I'm just like all right, thanks, mom, I don't need to hear it, but thanks, you know, I know what I'm doing and I'm confident in voice um but yeah and I'm sorry you have to read that stuff too, because I I mean, I know the negative impact of reading those comments and they're so awful.
Speaker 2:The the irony behind what we're talking about is that here we are not not the three of us but here we are getting this message that we should not be supporting them because they're homophobic. In a country that ignored millions of gay people dying from AIDS, we have Matthew Shepard, who is tied to a fence post and beaten to death. We have them trying to erase the trans people in the country. We have gay men who still can't even donate blood, even though they test blood, because they consider it still infected is ridiculous. We're not even in the top 20 of the best LGBT friendly countries in the world. So here we are saying like you know again, I'm not talking about us but here we are saying like, oh, these people are terrible because they're homophobic. Friggin, look at the mirror. Like, seriously, like this is not a great country. I mean any comments, yeah.
Speaker 1:The ad when you said we're not like, I think, in the top 20, most LGBT people's friendly countries. I'm trying to recall what the publisher or the author slash journalists or for journalists, who they are. But there's a happiness index, or a metric on happiness that is tabulated annually and Israel is number five now, I believe for this year, Do you want to guess? And the US has definitely fallen down on the list. But do you want to guess when the US is now ranked?
Speaker 2:Were we 34? Because I think I saw this recently, or maybe that was the lgbt friendly countries.
Speaker 1:I don't know why that number stands out we were 23, I think, last year, and now we're 20 25, you cut out 24 this year 24.
Speaker 2:Well, of course it's israel. I mean, we pay for. We pay for their education, we pay for their health care, we pay for them to slaughter people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, why wouldn't they be right like it's yeah it's absurd I think, I think fundamentally this what what we're talking about is like selective cognitive dissonance and like propaganda techniques, right, and how? Um the effort in which we um, the effort in which people's attention can like if, like the, the, the argument holds no water, right, and if it is subject to attention and scrutiny and critical review, and so one of these things that, um, you know, like communities divided rather than communities together, like we are not actually engaging in critical discourse, or like that practice of critical discourse and conversation, and my hope is that all of these so we have. I have sent over some things for Matt to add to the show notes. As far as just a short window into some of the discourse around why the LGBTQ community in the United States on average not all there are several queer organizations that I know that have chosen to continue to remain silent, to emphatically say that it does not matter, like whether or not we as a community are accepted in a space, because we face discrimination everywhere.
Speaker 3:Fundamentally, we stand for liberation everywhere, right, and and you know, I think that it's it's been it when we also take a look at, for example, there was a part of a prison that was bombed in Iran that actually housed a lot of trans inmates, so there were 100 trans people and in Iran, in Iran, gender affirming care is not, it's not illegal right, it is, it is normalized and available. A hundred trans prisoners were killed in Israel's targeting of a prison. So I mean fundamentally this concept of a false narrative of a country that it has equality or something, when actually it's an apartheid, genocidal, ethnic cleansing, like ethno-national state is like it's just. It's just wow to.
Speaker 2:To add to that, erica, because I, I 100. Everything you said is is spot on, as always. Uh, what they, they do have um equality in one area they starve everybody equally, right. So they're starving gay people, they're starving trans people, they're starving christians, they're starving muslims, they're starving kids, right, and they don't care. They're starving. If I hear release the hostages one more time, I swear to god, I think I'm gonna lose my freaking mind, because they're also starving the hostages too. They, they are the most genocidal government I have seen. Like it. It's wild, at least in our lifetime, right, like it's yeah, as erica was sharing, there was a.
Speaker 1:There was a thought that came to my head, which was if you even think, as erica mentioned, critically, think about this, right? Do you think that a lot of Muslims, in particular the Palestinian Muslims, are even thinking about shaming gay people right now?
Speaker 2:No, of course not.
Speaker 1:Absolutely not. Even. Do you even think that they're going to use their religion to harm people who don't affiliate to it? Because one could argue that, while you like, while one would claim Israel is supposedly LGBTQ plus friendly, or so if they're going to be killing so many Palestinians, then how would they even know if they're gay or not? Right, it's just a matter of like oh, they're gay, even though we claim that we're LGBTQ plus friendly. Well, no, they're Palestinians.
Speaker 1:So how could you say that Israel is pro-LGBTQ plus when they would still be shooting, killing or physically harming people who also happen to be LGBTQ plus? It's just, it's simply just. It's just simply tied towards sociopathic, just a series of brainwashing techniques that led into so many sociopathic citizens. Brainwashing techniques that led into so many sociopathic citizens. And yeah, I mean I have cousins who are ones in canada, the other in california, who it can be hard to just to contact them because they're very busy in general, but I mean, I think that's, you know, it's possible they could be great guests here or so to share. That would be awesome if you can.
Speaker 2:That would be fantastic. We do have. I'm just looking at the time we do have to wrap up there. There's one thing I just wanted to comment on, and then erica and I we had talked about doing a memorial to um people in gaza who've died, and I found somebody that I just want to talk about briefly is the we had recently. All these celebrities die, and what really annoyed me is seeing all these posts on facebook about these celebrities and not one person posting about the kids being starved to death or the people being starved to death in palestine drives me up the wall and I think that ties.
Speaker 1:Oh sorry, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say and, erica, please let me know too if you think this is an appropriate term and Matt as well.
Speaker 1:Months ago, I I've come to the conclusion that a lot of humans perform selective empathy, which is considering those that are within your circle, that are likely your family or close friends.
Speaker 1:An example was somebody who I was going to be doing a scene with in this coming month and then I saw he made a post from the MSNBC News of like nine Filipino individuals were run over by a car and killed, in Quebec, I believe and he said today's a sad day in the news and I called him out on it and eventually I told I was basically very obviously it's not a healthy decision to humiliate or shame someone.
Speaker 1:And then, because I brought a Palestinian and I apologized, but his reaction was eyeopening, he said well, I do care for those in Palestine, but my husband is Filipino and this guy that I told is a white American and he just said you know, I'm going to care more about this because this ties into somebody who you know culturally relates to these people or so, and he's like, and I don't like how you're bullying me, or even after I apologize, like I don't like how you're bullying me or trying to manipulate me and I'm just well now. You just revealed that you're willing to empathize with a certain individual or group of people based upon your personal ties to them, and I guarantee you that if his partner wasn't Filipino, this would probably be yesterday's newsprint.
Speaker 2:I don't think you were bullying him at all. You were pointing out the distortion. And I think selective, selective empathy is a great word, because I've also talked about selective outrage. When people are freaking out over one thing because it serves them and then when something else is not serving them but is even far worse, like Harris telling people to shut up because she's speaking and she didn't want to hear about genocide. Right, like that stuff. Right, the selective outrage when I hear people saying, oh well, you know, yeah, it's just Gaza, but all her other stuff is great. No, it's not just Gaza. Like it's so infuriating, and so I think it's a great term. I, I agree with you, I 100 agree with you. Erica, were you gonna say something?
Speaker 3:I'm gonna add on to this as far as terminology that I hope will. If we either affirm our audiences experiences or also give them terminology to utilize, because it's always helpful to name your like. Once there's a name that makes sense to an experience that somebody might be having, it can be very helpful. Um, or maybe that's just my alexithymia, um, and that's a term around autistic identity. You can look it up. Uh, we'll talk about it another time. So I say, in addition to selective empathy and selective outrage, what was brought up to my attention, it's the veil of politeness and niceness, right when and nice is put on a pedestal and is what is expected and considered the socially acceptable thing, rather than kind, like actual, real kindness and authenticity where we actually are clear, like having moral clarity. And so for me, I'm always of the position where moral clarity, an interruption of politeness and niceness in order to support compassion and humanism, is really the direction we need to go.
Speaker 2:Again. The irony behind that is, all three of us have parts of our identity that are vilified by society, and here we are, all three of us talking about the importance of being empathetic and understanding people. Something I've shared before is I'm pagan. So I mean that was also something that growing up as a pagan oh, I'm worshiping demons, you're going to hell, you're a terrible person, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like I mean. So it's funny that we are all as empathetic as we are and that we are fighting for humanity, like.
Speaker 3:But it's just, I mean, it makes sense, it's just, it's interesting have these experiences and relation to community which is beyond what someone growing up with a much more isolated background might experience, and I commend you so much for your stepping into that, using your voice unapologetically regularly in many spaces, and I look forward to hearing about your successes and our hopes for a political journey as far as our, as part of the youth who are pushing back and reclaiming their futures by claiming power, either in politics, in protest, in writing, whatever you seek and if you're listening to this and you're of an older generation like me and Matt, please support the young people in your life who are spearheading forward, because they are the future and the future belongs to them, and we need to get out of the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thanks so much.
Speaker 1:Erica, Do you mind if I have one more comment? Yeah, sure, really have deep, introspective and reflective conversations have shared with me and asked why are you so optimistic, or you're one of the very few people that still feels happy even though we're in doo-doo. You know, and I told them that there's research that I first was questioning. There's research that to become a happier individual, altruism is highly correlated, and I tell people you know now, whenever I'm actively spreading messages about people in Gaza, especially the friends I have there and people I've met and connected with through social media, One thing that I would tell people is, in terms of supporting people like them, or people in Ukraine, or people in Congo or Haiti, or people that are affected by the flooding in Texas, you can donate to them, even if it's like a dollar, you can reach out and connect with them. You know, for example I think Dr Erica, I was telling this to Matt before the podcast started I said why in the world are many students and people who are seeking jobs encouraged solely just to reach out and connect with strangers on LinkedIn for jobs at the companies and they can't apply that logic toward connecting with people affected by these events? You can also try to find these people living there or people that were affected by them, rather than just reading MSNBC or Fox News or CNN headlines, because the rich control these articles. So why not reach out to the people that were affected, you know, or buy a shirt that showcases your support for people in Gaza, for people in Ukraine?
Speaker 1:I wear a keffiyeh when I go to my job in corporate America and there was a day I got off the train before I walked into the office and I work in downtown Chicago and this guy is 21. He came up to me and said hey, I love your keffiyeh. Like it's very courageous just to wear it and go to the office. I said, oh, thank you. You know, I didn't really think of it as courageous because I guess at that point I've already been doing donations. I've been trying to wear my free Palestine shirts. I'd wear my keffiyeh where I go. I speak out on social media.
Speaker 1:One other tactic I've done to filter out people that I just, unfortunately, don't really feel connected with was I would personally DM every single person on my social media with videos and pictures of my friends in Gaza that are asking to spread their messages, and you won't believe that most people would watch it, they would see it or they would just put a heart. I'm just like. I'm not here for your reaction. I'm here for you to be a part of this initiation process and in a way, I'm trying to implicitly message this idea of if you actually want to help or care you may not realize it, but after the first time of helping, maybe that sparks some kind of happiness or that sparks some sort of value that and all humans want to provide value.
Speaker 1:And I'm hoping that, like when I send these DM messages, maybe some people that want to help, that spread the message on their social media or donate or do other things, may actually start to recognize that this example of altruism could help them feel less desensitized, less anxious and more optimistic or hopeful to be also those people that can empower others that are feeling this way. So these are some things that I would, that I've been doing, but these are things I would just encourage your audience and just to share with you guys. You know if that helps, because I'm I feel more optimistic and I'm a long term thinker and the people in power they're generally short term thinkers just looking for their next profit in the next year quarter.
Speaker 2:But they only care about getting reelected. As a shameless plug, I actually did two episodes on being Kind, so I don't know if the two of you have listened to it, but there's an episode in season one and I think in season two, and unfortunately we do have to wrap up. But I do want to say that for the people listening and I always thank people who are listening I am going to. Eric and I are going to be talking about Gaza as much as we can until this genocide ends. I refuse to keep my mouth shut about it and I talk about it every single day in my life. And I want to end with we have decided to do a tribute to people who have died in Gaza, and there is one person I had been following for a while.
Speaker 2:His name is Mohammed. He went by the name Medo I don't know if I'm pronouncing correctly and I'm probably going to butcher the last name Halimi H-A-L-I-M-I, and he was this young guy who did a life in the tents, right, so he would always do videos every day about here's how we shower, here's how we cook, here's how we wash clothes, here's how we do this, here's how we do that, and one of his acts of rebellion was he would plant something every day, so he would plant like a seed to like you know, for like a crop, and he would say this is kind of my resistance. And he was killed by Israeli shrapnel and he unfortunately died. I think he was taken to get medical attention but he was killed and I am going to put his TikTok information in the notes as well Because I mean I watched his videos and this was just a beautiful soul and, yeah, I have to tell you, every single palestinian I see on tiktok are just beautiful inside and out.
Speaker 2:People right like we need to see them as humans and I would encourage you to look up this young uh influencer. I mean he was just such a powerful person and his life was tragically ended as he was murdered by Israel thank you for combining hope, frustration, resistance and fortitude, shall we say, or um steadfastness and I.
Speaker 3:I actually just want to hold this space for the story that matt told um.
Speaker 3:We are going to follow up with more tributes, but, john, thank you so much for your words, thank you, john, thank you um for emphasizing that active, engage, altruism to connect directly with the human beings in all of these places, and I appreciate so much that you have cited all of the places in which armed conflict is happening.
Speaker 3:I'm going to just add one more on. There is Sudan, and that's just also because I have the opportunity to speak about this at a conference, and I have to say, so many people in the world right now are wanting to speak out and speak up. Work with going into your work with the kafir. Do so, do so with symbols of palestinian solidarity. Demand that um people and leadership and institutions you are part of, um, take a stance of moral courage and continue to push for the un, um to engage in intervention and also with whatever we can do with our own politicians. Demand that our tax dollars are not designed or for going to build weapons of war to murder people and poison the land, because we have children that need to grow up with a future and to lead hope. So thank you, john.
Speaker 2:And thank you Erica, thank you John, thank you both for all the work that you do and, again, we will be talking about this every single episode. So, until next episode, everybody try to make a difference. Go out and do something like John talked about. Do something nice, make a difference. Like Erica said, you really have to go out there and fight, because it does affect all of us at the end of the day. So, thank you, thank you everybody, and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank, you again.
