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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 3 E: 20 Weaponizing the Human-Animal Bond: Police Dogs and Colonial Violence
Dog training experts Zak George and Bree join us to explore the dark side of animal training and how the weaponization of the human-animal bond perpetuates systems of oppression. We examine how our treatment of animals reflects deeper societal values about power, control, and our approach to both animal and human behavior.
• Traditional dog training methods often rely on pain and fear, including shock collars, prong collars, and physically harmful techniques
• The police dog system has roots in colonialism and was historically used to control marginalized communities
• When an animal misbehaves, asking "why" rather than focusing on stopping the behavior leads to more effective and humane solutions
• The parallels between punitive approaches to animal behavior and human behavior in our criminal justice system
• How fear-based training makes veterinary care more difficult and sometimes dangerous for animals
• The importance of consent, cooperation, and relationship-building in animal training
• The story of Mohammed Bahar, a Palestinian man with Down syndrome who was killed by a police dog, highlighting the human cost of weaponizing animals
To learn more about modern, humane dog training techniques, follow Zak George's Dog Training Revolution on YouTube or find their intersectionality content on Instagram and Facebook.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9drj14e0lo
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/aharon-bonus-episode-innocent-and-pure-from-sin/id1624487374
Zak:
https://instagram.com/zakgeorge
https://TikTok.com/@thezakgeorge
https://facebook.com/thezakgeorge
Bree
https://instagram.com/breejustine
https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf
https://perretologia.substack.com/p/weapon-dogs
https://www.themarshallproject.org/mauled
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/7/27/hannah_beckler_investigation_prison_dogs
https://www.businessinsider.com/correctional-officers-prison-staff-attack-dogs-bite-2023-7
https://www.aaihs.org/police-dogs-and-anti-black-violence
https://daily.jstor.org/the-police-dog-as-weapon-of-racial-terror
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I have Erica back with me today and we have two guest speakers, zach and Brie. If you would like to introduce yourselves, that would be fantastic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm Zach George. I make dog training videos. We do advocacy work. We focus on intersectionality and trying to make the animal care profession a better place. Bree is my partner and co-producer and the brains behind everything.
Speaker 4:Yep, yeah, that's true. I've been working with Zach for, I want to say, 14 years, now a long time.
Speaker 1:I do want to mention that these two amazing human beings are people that I work in community with in the animal care world as far as this concept of decolonial work in general, especially around the human-animal bond. And so Zach was one of the people who spearheaded the public discourse and conversation within social media about the weaponization of the people who spearheaded the public discourse and conversation within social media about the weaponization of the human-animal bond and the concept of policing and police dogs, and that was part of our common ground conversation today. As far as to talk about how animal training, animal training world, which we'll see if we get into this. But there's a whole lot of stuff happening there that you two could probably talk about if you would like, about this concept of what is the nature of the relationship between people and animals and how do we utilize animals in society with that relationship ethically, especially because there's just such a longstanding history of exploitation of animals by people.
Speaker 2:Thank you, erica, if I could add one piece of that too, because I know people love to hear the creation of things right, like how something came about. So, zach, if you could also add, or Brie, how you came to do this in the first place, like what led up to the work that you do as part of what Erica is also talking about.
Speaker 4:I'll go because I think my answer might be shorter. I don't know, but for me it's kind of one and the same, as far as well, when you were talking about the weaponization of the bond and all of that something people don't always think about. When they think about the issue of police dogs, for example, they think are those dogs trained in a kind way or not? And they sort of stop there and the answer, unfortunately, is usually not, almost always not. But in addition to that, even if those dogs are trained kindly, the entire concept of carceral policing is exactly the same problem as the question they're asking when they're saying are those dogs trained kindly?
Speaker 4:If you think that you shouldn't punish dogs, for me it follows punishment doesn't really work for people either. So it's just sort of been a slow and then fast snowball effect of decolonial learning for me. Like once I started really digging into my thoughts on dog training, it was a surprise. I really thought I was going to just learn how to clicker train a dog and all of a sudden I'm like the entire world has changed for me. My worldview has totally shifted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting that you say that. As a person who is Eric, I know you're a vet and both of you have worked largely with animals and, having only the experience of pets, you know as you can see my cat right there I would have never, it would have never, crossed my mind to think about how police dogs are trained until you said that I would think more about how the dangers they were and afterwards, or how they are, they're exploited or how they're used afterwards, I never would have thought about the training and so you just said that, so I'm not sure everybody would be aware of that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a good point. I've been kind of deep in the dog training space about it now and I find, at least within animal training, people often stop with that question. But you're right, for the general public I don't know what they ask.
Speaker 2:Yeah is it? Are the dogs happy when they go home? I'm not sure. I would never even think about that stuff, so I'm really glad that you brought that up. What and what was it that led you to start that work? Like, what did you have a passion about working with animals before that? Like, how did you get to this point?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been. I've been training Back started.
Speaker 4:It is the answer.
Speaker 3:I've been training dogs about this approximate. I guess this is my 20th year in the dog training field and I've always been involved. But you know I started from dog sports. I, you know, performed in stunt dog shows. I eventually evolved my career into showing people at home how to train their dogs through, you know, a couple of TV shows that I've had, but my YouTube channel is, you know, what I'm most proud of there. That's, you know, I think really helps spread the word about modern dog training. But you can't help but notice all the different ways that people train dogs and I've always been really passionate about trying to bring progress to this field, which I'm passionate about, and rule out pain and fear when we're teaching dogs right. Believe it or not, it's quite common in the professional dog training sector for people to use intentional pain and fear, and that really applies to a lot of police dog training. And even if it didn't, even if they are trained with positive methods, like Bree was saying, they are still contributing to upholding problematic systems in society, right.
Speaker 4:We understand a carceral response is not reformative, right, and so that's important to us in animal care, in our daily work, because part of our whole, I guess, activist message I want to put activist in quotes because I feel like it's wild that this is a question but part of our whole message is that that's not helping your dog. You know, we understand from what we know about learning with people that punishing them isn't going to help them change their behavior in a way that's good for their welfare or their long-term life, and the same is true with dogs and any animal. Them change their behavior in a way that's good for their welfare or their long-term life, and the same is true with dogs and any animal.
Speaker 3:And so, yes, I wanted to say, as we were untangling why people train dogs with these methods you can't ignore the way that law enforcement and military dogs are trained and what the origins are there and why they came about in the first place. And guess what? It's to suppress minoritized communities around the world. I mean, that's really what's at the heart of it, and so that's why we couldn't help but notice that, and we noticed there's a lot of mixed messaging in the dog training community, Like a lot of the conversation has been well, as long as they're training them with modern methods, it should be okay. And so we think that is not the right direction because it exploits dogs. And of course, we would have to go over a lot here to explain why it's problematic, because I know a lot of people hear this and they think well, don't we need police dogs? Aren't they heroes? You know this is how they're presented in modern media and things like that. There's a lot of background there. I don't know how you want to tackle that.
Speaker 2:It actually 100% makes sense now that you've described it, because I can see how that would happen Again. It's just something I don't think I would have thought about until somebody said it.
Speaker 1:So what I would like to suggest is like a three-step process.
Speaker 1:Number one I would love it if the two of you and Matt, if you would like to contribute this to expand a little bit on this concept of the carceral system and reformative systems, because I do think that that is specific language that maybe not everyone listening may have had deep experience with, especially from the concept of liberatory framework.
Speaker 1:So that's step one. Step two is this conversation about these systems that are problematic, in which military and police dogs, or this concept of control in the human-animal bond when it comes to dogs and potentially other military animals, we could talk about, for example, mounted police horses and horses being utilized to do what they call quote-unquote crowd control, which actually involves trampling people with horses, which is horrifically violent and very damaging. And then, lastly, in that counterpoint of creating a vision for people about what the human-animal bond can do, why do we need to even engage in these systems of violence when the human-animal bond has such wonderful things that we can emphasize? So, search and rescue, service animals, the animals as utility for the human medical well-being right, and those kinds of things. So that's what I'm going to put forward, that's the veterinary anti-oppressionist talking. What do you?
Speaker 2:think obviously between the carceral system and the use of punishment with people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what the two of you are, the three of you are also talking about, and it doesn't work. I mean, I work a lot with addiction. That's been, that's my background and addiction is a great example of this in terms of how we treat it. We call it a disease, but we treat it as a moral issue, and that is from top to bottom. So we do it in the court system. We that is from top to bottom. So we do it in the court system, we do it in the prison system, we do it in the treatment system, while at the same time, we're saying it's a disease, but we treat it in an incredibly punitive way.
Speaker 2:I know when I first started at the field, they did things like they would shave people's heads in treatment and you would have to, like, earn a pencil or earn a pen to earn your rights. At the same time, they're calling it a disease. So we see that all over the place. Our entire prison system is meant to be a revolving door, so I see the parallel between that and what you're talking about with animal welfare as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it reminds me of, if you think about, basically any of the worst problems a dog could have. So if a dog is biting people or I mean, that's usually the worst, but there's, you know there's many like or being destructive at home, I guess would be another one fearful of strangers. Almost all of those bad dogs, those dogs that are like lunging and barking on a walk, doing things that people really don't want them to do, are doing that because they're afraid or their welfare is compromised, not always through the fault of the person. The dog could have a medical issue or the environment's just not right for them, but none of those things are the dog's fault, and so punishing those fearful behaviors is just egregious to me. And yeah, you're right, it's really, really similar in a lot of ways to a lot of human issues that we think about.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, that's what I always come back to. It just became unavoidable to me. I mean I did enter this thought process thinking shouldn't police dogs be positively trained, and it took, I mean it was like a week and a half of us learning about it, and then we were like, wait, what did those people do? Why are the dogs biting them? They don't have due process Like what, how, what right do we have to send an animal who doesn't deserve to be in that situation after a person who, first of all, shouldn't be criminalized regardless because we know that it's not reformative? Second of all, they don't even haven't even been given their rights of like due process and a jury and stuff. So it yeah, it just is. It becomes a natural conclusion for me, and the parallels just keep being unignorable.
Speaker 2:I thought of another one, and I don't know if the two of you or Erica, you may even know the answer to this. I saw a study a while ago that I think it was, in 16 or 15 states in the United States it's illegal to remove a puppy from a dog before the age of eight weeks old because of how much damage it does to the puppy. However, we have no problem removing children from people at birth, even though there is ample studies and evidence that would suggest, if not prove, that it damages people. Right. So there is a lot of, and my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong with this is that child welfare rights also came out of animal welfare rights. Is that correct?
Speaker 4:I'm not sure which came first.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know the parallels I thought for some reason I thought animal welfare actually came first.
Speaker 1:I do. I do actually think that that is the case. Let me we'll cross check it. But there are many instances where the conditions of animals are thought about more than the conditions of the marginalized identity people that are being targeted or existing in parallel space. And wow, we could go into deep, deep discussion.
Speaker 2:Yes, we could.
Speaker 1:Gaza and Palestine. That could actually probably in its own right be a separate episode, and I also appreciate that reflection of like. Yes, there are, like when we navigate in veterinary medicine, we call them bottle babies, and it's not just dogs, it's also cats, right, and other animals that we interact with that don't have the full experience or the natural experience of that period of maternal bonding, or I should say like about that, like birth bonding. That happens. You know, we could.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'll just put this in here, we're not going to talk about this too much, but this is a side quest. Uh, you know, we can think about the dairy industry in this right. Um, it's, it's also in food systems. What I'd like to circle back to, because I think that there was this natural concept of like, why we think about this fact of absence of due process in that we are normalizing the fact that someone who's literally just being chased by the cops you know that there is a decision made that is judge, jury and like execution of harm, the amount of trauma and physical mauling. Like I had veterinarians and other veterinary professionals, we put ourselves at risk to being mauled intentionally with tools available.
Speaker 1:We understand that's an expectation of that and there have been veterinary professionals killed by our, the patients that we work with Right, and what I just want to emphasize, and because I feel like Zach had something to say, um to add to this in the context of some and also in his work, as far as what he's written about it, about the fact that sometimes these dogs not only are they attacking and physically harming and mauling and sometimes disabling people without any due process, that there are bystanders at times that are impacted by this, and I'm passing it off to Zach because this is something that-.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, even a lot of I'm sorry, yeah, even a lot of former police officers or people you know. They they've talked about how it scarred them as well when they've reflected on it and they've experienced PTSD as well from a lot of these. These incidents only scratching the surface. So your Fourth Amendment is potentially violated by police dogs. That's an unreasonable seizure. Your Eighth Amendment cruel and unusual punishment. The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments the arbitrary use, violating due process rights, which we talked about. Potentially even the First Amendment when they use them at protests to intimidate protesters. So these dogs are trampling all over constitutional rights. Now, I realize the Constitution needs work, but if that's going to be the law of the land right now, we can at least start by honoring those basic fundamental rights that are trampled on by the practice of police dogs.
Speaker 2:Wow, zach, thank you for pointing that out, because that's that's like huge. But is it really the dogs that are doing it or is it the trainers that trained the dogs that are doing it?
Speaker 4:it is, yeah, I noticed that you said that and I was like he knows, it's not the dogs that are doing it.
Speaker 3:Did I misspeak there? I was surprised by that.
Speaker 1:Thank you for clearing that up yeah, this is a perfect example of like how we work together. Oh my god, yeah so we're learning something here, and that I believe that the microphones are like cutting off based off of whose microphone is the loudest. That might be a feature of of zoom, um, but yeah, so I'm gonna let you finish your sentence. There's that to make sure your microphone picks it up. What was the point?
Speaker 3:yeah, people are exploiting dogs right the the fact that you know, very often you'll see belgian malinois, for example, or german shepherd dogs used in in, uh, police apprehension work.
Speaker 3:They're exploiting how eager and how intelligent and how curious these animals are.
Speaker 3:They're really exploiting the best of these animals to do the worst work in humanity right now, and that's what's so twisted about it. I mean, we've normalized this because we've all grown up with police dogs, like we're taught that they're heroes, we're taught that they you know they get the bad guys and there's not really a lot of evidence that they're necessary at all, no strong evidence that I'm aware of that they. I'm not aware of any evidence that they decrease crime. They certainly don't de-escalate situations and I think most reasonable people should agree that de-escalatory practices are what we should be aiming for as well. I mean the very root of weaponizing dogs for practical purposes for this conversation goes back to the 1500s, when we weaponized them against the natives of north america uh, what we call north america so and then we use them to hunt down enslaved human beings, primarily africans, right and in the united states, and we continue to use them as a tool of oppression and the civil rights movement and to this day, most people just think they're normal, but they actually are foundationally racist.
Speaker 2:I can think of another one that's less popular, if you think back to the connection between cats and women historically, where they would associate cats with witchcraft and women and they would, you know, use that as a as a weapon against successful women or women who were poor, or women who, whatever I mean, they would just murder them.
Speaker 1:they would murder the cats, and that was another bond that would also be broken it's a really good point, yeah, and I'll say this as a person who works very closely with cats. So, like cats and certain dogs right, there are plenty of dogs that have this particular trait of a certain amount of autonomy and desire for trust building, right. So a lot of the times with cats that you have to do what's called not all, but a higher percentage of them, what I would call invitation-based collaboration. So a cat that has this inclination and there are some cats that are very amenable has this inclination, and there are some cats that are very amenable that a cat needs to know you or be familiar enough with you before a cat allows certain things to happen. And there's a certain amount of time that that takes.
Speaker 1:And when you think about that in the concept of relational control, right, perhaps this is why historically sometimes there's been a bond between independent fem-bodied people and felines, right Of this concept of where does the control lie?
Speaker 1:And I think that Zach and Brie have has, historically, other interesting content about this concept of control, and there are other veterinarians and content creators who also talked about like controlled breeding, as well as what we call the menageries of the rich who would populate as a status symbol, populate their what do they call them conservatory?
Speaker 1:Or populate the precursors to zoos, basically with exotic species that they would bring in from other places, and sometimes it would literally just be death, like it's just a cycle of death, like they bring these animals in to showcase them without understanding their care and would basically be sentencing them to death out of neglect and just exploitation. So this exploitation of nature and planet and animals in it, which is basically where I came to veterinary medicine, is this desire of human beings to want to control things rather than coexist with things, to control things rather than coexist with things, to exert dominance over things rather than to be in community connection with, and I would say with my practice in medicine and the wonderful people that I get to meet, like Zach and Bree and other people in our community that have this determination to demonstrate to other people the type of equitable, reciprocal relationships that people can have with animals and their environment. And we don't have the need to utilize this coercive control or punitive control to have an abundantly productive relationship with animals and environment. And I'm off my soapbox.
Speaker 2:Okay, I want to go back to just one thing that I was talking about, erica, before you had mentioned that, and then I want to go to Zach and Bree, if you could talk about, maybe, some of the techniques that are used, so that the listeners will understand what that abuse looks like.
Speaker 2:But to go back to what I was saying about cats and women, because we don't have to go down this rabbit hole today, but religion has also been used as a way to vilify the connection between people and animals, and particularly with cats.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you're familiar with this, but the concept of Friday the 13th being this unholy, superstitious day and black cats actually comes directly from the oppression of women in history, because Freya, the goddess of love and beauty and battle in Scandinavian countries, is actually where the word Friday comes from, and Freya was represented by cats, particularly black cats, and she was often depicted in a chariot being pulled by cats, and her worshipers were one of the last bastions of goddess pagan worship that Christianity could not get rid of.
Speaker 2:So what they did was they vilified her, they vilified her priestesses, they vilified cats, they vilified everything about it, because her worship would often consist of 13 priestesses. So they took Friday the 13th, which is a direct correlation between goddess worship and Freya, and linked the cat to it because that's what she was depicted as, and they used that as a way to oppress women, kill women, kill cats, do all of that stuff examples of that happening historically with religion. But I did want to throw that out there. And then if, zach and Brie, if you could talk about the techniques that are used to train these dogs that might be helpful as well.
Speaker 4:Well, I'll mostly let Zach talk about the techniques, but I wanted to start just by saying did you know? This is an anecdotal quote based on my years of experience in the dog training field, but it is not an official number from any source. But did you know that a large percentage I'm going to say probably about 50%, but I'll let Zach guess of dog trainers in America truly believe that dogs don't have the ability to give consent and they like talk about it as a talking point of their training? And I just the first time I heard that my jaw was on the floor for a week and a half, Like I was, like we have so much work to do. But anyway, I'll let Zach talk about the techniques. But the mindset is there. It's a problem.
Speaker 2:Those are probably the same people who believe their partners don't need consent either. I would just imagine.
Speaker 3:I mean, there you go, see, you're onto something here, it's true. I mean there are commonalities between, and characteristics between, domestic violence and the treatment of animals and dogs, and that's something we've talked about a lot on my social media, one of the more controversial things that we talk about there, but it's, it's very true. Which I think is exciting we lost, so yeah, the techniques like okay, this mic, you can't hear me oh no, I see it green again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, something happened, that's weird okay, um it's within zoom, but, yeah, keep letting us know you know, like kind of tying it back to what we're talking about with police dogs. One of the reasons that outdated methods in dog training persist, where we use pain things like shot collars or prong collars being jerked pretty firmly and abruptly One of the reasons that we see the continued use of that is because people look to what they perceive, as you know, those must be well-trained dogs, when in fact these dogs are often just exploited. They're not usually the best trained dogs in reality.
Speaker 4:Yeah, they're frequently out of control. I don't encourage anyone to do this, but if you look on YouTube at police dog attacks, you will find the majority of them end with the officer having to physically remove the dog they don't like. Call off the people.
Speaker 3:Right yeah they have a hard time getting them, yeah um, but in terms of techniques go so like what I'm trying to get at it here is there are decades and decades centuries actually of colonial culture prioritizing taking behaviors from dogs, making them do something, rather than than motivating the dog to want to do something or appealing to their intrinsic motivation of what they really value and to let them actually be dogs.
Speaker 3:And so the techniques that we use and that we promote to the public are really about catering to the individual dog and understanding the individual dog in front of you and what you can do to make them feel safe and comfortable and confident. First and foremost, we don't bypass those things and then we earn behaviors from them if they're willing to give them to us, and it's up to us to motivate those dogs to want to do things. But really fundamentally, the way we promote raising a dog is in the same way that we think you would ethically raise a young child, right? I mean, you wouldn't hit them, you wouldn't spank them, you would try and be patient with them and explain to them when they're confused. And there are ways to do that with dogs. I mean dogs are very intelligent animals, they're mammals.
Speaker 4:All mammals are very intelligent, best I can tell, although, yeah, I feel like it all in at least the everyday dog training that we're usually presented with.
Speaker 4:It all comes down to whether you are suppressing a behavior that you don't want or whether you're actually motivating your dog to change behavior. And there's a lot of debate within the dog training community about whether it's ever appropriate to suppress a behavior, whether that's all you really should do or whether you should only motivate them, which is the side that Zach and I fall on. But yeah, it's just. You know, when you look at a dog that's doing those problematic things like we were talking about before biting or lunging on a walk, if you just suppress that symptom of fear, you're not fixing the fear, and so the problem the dog might not growl at strangers anymore, but they might just go straight to biting them instead, because you've suppressed their symptoms but you haven't actually addressed the problem. So it's bad for the dogs, but it's really bad for everyone. It's just a shame. The dog training world is a big shame in a lot of ways, and so we're trying to help hopefully change it. Did you want to hear about the bad methods or only the good ones?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's important that people know the bad I mean in in theory. I don't want to know, because ignorance, you know what I mean, but like we need to know, like that's how we, that's how we are going to change it, so tell us about it yeah, and that's I mean.
Speaker 3:These. These harsh methods we're talking about are very widespread in dog training because it's an unregulated field. You don't need any license to be a dog trainer. No certification is required. Anybody can wake up. Literally anybody can wake up and be a dog trainer. No certification is required. Anybody can wake up. Literally anybody can wake up and be a dog trainer, even if they've never you know done the first bit of research.
Speaker 2:So how does that work in terms of like insurance? So for, like, if you're a dog trainer, then something happens. Well, first of all do you have to have insurance.
Speaker 3:I don't. I mean you have to have insurance. It's a good idea to have insurance. I don't know if there's a law requiring it, but if you have business, you know you should have basic insurance in place and stuff like that. But, um, wow, but yeah, yeah, there's.
Speaker 3:So there's no requirements, so you get everything like you would expect, Right, and so most dog trainers are literally unqualified to be doing what they're doing, and so that's the unfortunate thing. So it's a it's a consumer health and safety issue, because the consumer really doesn't necessarily, they're not guaranteed that they're going to get a quality dog trainer, Even if a dog trainer has a certification. There are certifying bodies out there right now that still will give a dog trainer credentials, even if that dog trainer is going to use choke and prong collars. You know Bree mentioned a moment ago that it's a big debate in the dog training community, but where it is not a big debate is in the veterinary behavior community, which is these are the people on earth who are tasked with understanding how training methods, among other things, of course, affect mental and physical health more than any other credentialed body on Earth.
Speaker 3:Well, also based on scientific evidence right.
Speaker 4:Like without, because we don't want to hero worship anyone either. Like, as amazing as veterinary behaviorists are, the real reason they're amazing is just because they believe science, they look at evidence and they trust it and they don't say, nah, I grew up pinching my dog's butt to get him to sit, or whatever, like I don't care, my way works, so I'm not going to do that better thing.
Speaker 3:Well, in our advocacy efforts it's always worth mentioning here are never directed at really the general public. They're more directed at professionals who accept money to then traumatize dogs essentially. I mean that's often what happens.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you both so much and I really I very much appreciate this kickoff as far as the veterinary behavior world, which kind of segues into one of the pioneers of the veterinary behavior world, dr Sophia Yin, who committed suicide and was the reason why Not One More Vet was formed, and so she was an Asian-American veterinarian working in san francisco and she pioneered the fear-free component of veterinary medicine, which is incredibly new, right and also as far as a formalized field. I think that there are probably there people I view it from the perspective as an Asian American veterinarian with deep roots in like Buddhist and Taoist culture that I have always been practicing fear-free methodologies, just like in many indigenous cultures around the world have practiced um, fear-free, um processes, um and engaging in like animal kinship and animal relationship for, like you know, thousands of years. So, first of all, we need to like normalize the fact that these modern bodies and names and things were, are like literally putting modern names on things that are as old as the relationship, as the human and animal bond, right in human history, um, but I I wanted to kind of bring that up because absolutely zach is right that like veterinary behaviorists are not having this conversation and I think that's because at times veterinary behaviorists their relationship begins and start at the clinic door, and and also we rely because we have options, pharmaceutical options, that we can dispense. That that is the other reason why veterinary behaviorists have such great success, often because we also can and I am not a formalized behaviorist right. I often because we also can and I am not a formalized behaviorist right.
Speaker 1:There are whole training processes or residency programs that have been established as a methodology of how should I say like standards, there's more regulatory bodies observing what veterinary behaviorists are doing, and that there are additional tools that I wish more veterinarians would work with behaviorists and dog trainers that they have long established relationships with.
Speaker 1:So that's something that I do regularly with this community that Zach and Bray and I are connected to, and I would encourage veterinary practitioners who don't have training in animal behavior, formalized training in animal behavior, to ensure that you're not just handing out cards of behaviorists or not just saying yo just work with a behaviorist, I guess I'll look around. Right? You have to do some quality control in who you are recommending to work with the animals that are under your care. Sometimes it takes a little while, but do your due diligence, make sure that you understand not only the qualifications of your animal behaviors, whether or not they are in alignment with fear-free techniques, whether or not they are in alignment with fear-free techniques, um, but also in the context of, are those behaviorists qualified and ready to work with very traumatized animals? That's the other thing, because that needs to be happen to keep both the trainer, the animal and the animal caretaker, you know, or you know, companion, you know, companion animal person, like all collectively safest as possible.
Speaker 2:So if we could circle back to the behavior stuff, only because we we still haven't gotten there. We I know it's come up a couple of times when we keep getting sidetracked. So what is that? Can you give, give an example of why? When erica was saying it's important to to vet these people, um, what are they risking in terms of not vetting the people? So what does that behavior look like? What do the methods look like if they're abusing these dogs?
Speaker 3:yeah, so if somebody is, uh, using outdated methods you're talking about, what are the side effects that they can expect?
Speaker 2:no, what are, what are those methods? What are they doing to those dogs?
Speaker 3:Okay, you have something to say here before I go. Go ahead.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can list the methods really quick, because I was thinking about that earlier.
Speaker 2:Please.
Speaker 4:So some highlights, unfortunately, some bullet points of common things that people do with their dogs are, of course, the prong collars, which are used very specifically by being kept really high on the neck and with a sharp, straight upward pop of the collar. And so you'll hear people say a prong collar used properly very often because proponents of them will see them like lower on dogs'' necks etc and be like that's not proper. That's why the dog doesn't like it, as if a dog loves it when it's up real tight. There's shot callers right, that's probably one of the most common ones and a lot of people think that is the answer to their dog being off leash, which I personally find terrifying. Because can you imagine if you were fearful and then, out of the blue, in a way you can't predict, you got painful shocks to your neck, while the thing you're afraid of is in your face? I just feel like there are so many unwanted side effects that really scare me that come with shock collars.
Speaker 2:Would you say that that's also true of those electric fences that they have?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yes, In fact I read I'll have to look for the study and try to send it to you and it was kind of old, to be clear, but I read a study that's probably at least 10 years old that said that the bark collars, which is another version, there's the electric underground fences, the shock collars you can just version. There's the electric underground fences, the shock collars, you can just push a button and do it at will, and then there are all.
Speaker 2:Oh, you went out again.
Speaker 4:Also collars that dogs can Ah, I'm back. One, two, three, am I back? Yeah, yeah, okay. There are shock collars people can hold and push a button at will, and then there are also collars that dogs can wear that will just automatically shock them when it senses a bark to keep them silent. And I read a paper that said those compromised welfare the most the bark collars, because of all the different unpredictable ways the collar can respond to other sounds in the environment If the dog is afraid and like trying to vocalize, et cetera.
Speaker 4:The other common technique that I thought of immediately is something that this is literally in in, I don't want to say textbooks, but this is an actual descriptive term that some dog trainers think is legitimate. We do not. It's called hanging and helicoptering, which is what they think you should do to a dog who is basically like really freaking out at the end of a leash, and so you just sort of literally lift them by the neck so that their front feet are not on the ground anymore, and so they, you like, constrict their airway until, I guess, they calm down. Some dogs get very physically hurt by this, but unfortunately, the only way that you could, the only way that someone's going to get in trouble a trainer, et cetera for doing this to your dog is, if you witness it, bring them to the vet. Get the vet to write a report of the injury, bring that to the police things that most people don't do because they literally see their dog's behavior suppressed and they think that worked because my dog is quiet now. It's really unfortunate. That's my least favorite.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so fear, anxiety, increased aggression, mistrust are some of the top side effects of Zach you cut out again Using these methods. Sorry, okay, I'm so sorry about that. Y'all, it's a new mic. I appreciate your patience on that. Maybe it's your cord. So fear, anxiety, mistrust between a person and a dog and aggression are some of the most common side effects from using these methods. So while you suppress behavior, you're now creating other issues, pretty fundamental stuff. I mean. We know, if we treat a kid like this, those are going, they're going to have issues, and those issues are preventable.
Speaker 2:Same type of deal. This may not, this may not be fair for me to say, but you know, I like I also want to blame the dog owner. Right? I mean, I am not, I've not really owned dogs myself, but I had dogs growing up with my, my parents. And if somebody told me, as a cat owner, that if I shocked my cat or if I hung them at the end of a leash, or if I put them, if I put these spiked things on their neck, that their behavior would go away, then I shouldn't own a cat, I mean, maybe that's not fair to say.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, it's like I try not to come down on everyday people who fall victim to this. This is baked in. This is why we're doing the work here, right? Because this is baked into colonial culture, this idea that we suppress behavior that we want. So for many people they're raised with it being very normalized. Now, yes, I agree that accountability is necessary and again, where I choose to focus my efforts are with professionals who are telling these everyday people to use these methods.
Speaker 2:You know I try not to oh no, I know I, I know I hear you're not, but I'm going to Because it just. You know, we were talking yesterday, Eric, about just critical thinking, and there's a lack of critical thinking. If you do not, if you think electrocuting something is a good idea, you should probably I don't know check your moral compass and try again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, and the laws of learning and the side effects we talked about, I mean you know as well, I mean better than I do those are the laws of learning apply to all animals. We haven't found an exception to that so far when we've checked.
Speaker 2:That's so disturbing. Thank you for sharing that. I just saw a video the other day, I think it was, of a dog groomer that was caught on a video cam of smashing the dog into the table a couple of times to like control its behavior so that they could then groom the dog I'm. If that were my dog, they probably would never find that person. I'm just going to say that.
Speaker 4:Well, there's. There's another element to this that I like to bring up when I'm doing the critical thinking too, which is that we so imagine. You're a person Right and, and you have.
Speaker 2:Wait, wait, we're not.
Speaker 4:Just like, just just for a moment. Imagine you're a person and you have a dog who is maybe two thirds as big as you are and they're really excited to see you, but they're jumping on you and they have these claws and they're like scratching and they could truly break your skin, like they could knock you down and hurt you. If you stop that behavior, you just rewarded yourself right From. What we know about laws of learning is that if something aversive, something negative is happening to me and it stops, I'm more likely to do again the behavior that made that aversive thing stop, and so I think it's really important for animal trainers to remember that we can train ourselves if we're not careful, that it can be rewarding.
Speaker 2:Oh, you cut out again, I'm so sorry To punish a dog. That's all right. You said it could be rewarding. And then?
Speaker 4:you that it could be rewarding to punish a dog because, like, if your dog is barking all day and you stick a shock collar on them and they don't bark anymore, from your perspective your life is better. And so if you're not considering the world Up from the other animals, are we back? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:The point is, punishment is reinforcing to the punisher, and I believe my last example I was giving is that if you, if your dog is barking all day and you stick a shock collar on them, then you have rewarded yourself because the barking stops on them than you have rewarded yourself because the barking stops. And so we just have to remember both, both sides of the equation, like both animals that are being trained within the situation that we're approaching, so that we don't accidentally reinforce ourselves but harm the other animal right and when you have the compass or when you have the uh, welfare of the learner, first and foremost, it helps you avoid that.
Speaker 2:I had. I had a situation that actually happened today. So I told Erica yesterday that I just got a new, I just adopted a new kitten and you know, I I like to believe that I'm the cat whisperer, because most of the time I am. So the cat has been hiding under the kitten has been hiding under the bed and she. I went out, she came back and I couldn't find her and then I found her in the bathroom. She was actually behind this, this shower curtain. So I sat on the floor and I opened up the shower curtain and I saw her and without thinking, I reached out to pet her and she like freaked out and ran, like ran up my arm, I got scratched up, she jumped off my shoulder and I said, ok, that was my fault, not the cat's fault, that was my fault. So like I didn't blame the cat and I'm like, ok, now I got to do some repair, repair work, but that's what it's training us. It's not training them Right, it's training the person.
Speaker 3:That's right. Yeah, exactly that's what it's training us. It's not training them right.
Speaker 1:It's training the person, that's right. Yeah, exactly that's what we try to do, I so as a. So I'd like to visit on also some of the consequences from a medical perspective that that zach and brie were speaking on, especially when the concept of um restricting the dog'sway. So there are a certain number of dogs that have a predisposition to what's called a collapsing trachea and that means that their tracheal rings and the cartilage in it are not as sturdy or robust as a typical animal and they have incomplete not all species this is the case, but we have incomplete tracheal rings. This is why someone can be choked to death by also the injury to the trachea, as far as crushing the trachea with that action. So any time with those types of pressure and component although usually most of these more aggressive techniques are utilized on larger breed dogs that are not as predisposed to this that is just fundamentally like it can cause injuries to the trachea, which is obviously essential for life, aka an airway right. The other component that I think is very important to recall is that as you increase fear-based responses of animals, what that makes it makes the medical care of those animals much more challenging.
Speaker 1:I work with a lot of dogs that have trauma history. I work with a lot of challenging behavior cases. And number one it's amazing when people come to me and by the end of the visit, if their dog is literally just fearful, that I can have a bond with that dog by the end of the visit and people who express their appreciation for thank you for you know working with my dog in that way. And I think it's important to remind veterinary professionals that even like you, have to build in space to create a bond with that animal and the process of working with that animal, to work with that animal in a way that makes each subsequent visit easier. Because it can go the other way and if I cannot actually do a physical exam on an animal, I can't provide the care that that animal needs for its best, most optimal health. And so, foundationally, when I have a patient that I can't even handle and I actually have to use sedation in order to do a complete physical exam, there are risks that I am taking by putting that animal under a drug that's going to modify its cardiovascular system if I haven't even had the opportunity to listen to that heart or know if there's a murmur or something else. So also in that process of the relationship that you are creating with your pet and your companion animal, that by giving the animal an opportunity to explore the world with the safety and comfort of your bond and that understanding just like you know, I know that I'm braver when I have people in my life that I feel safe with and we're doing something together that is beyond my comfort zone.
Speaker 1:It's literally the same thing for these wonderful animals. You have to work with them over time, right, and sometimes it takes us time to be comfortable with a new technique. So this is why I try and remind people because we are how should I say also in like our social media world looking for instant gratification and instant things to change instantly and a button to push that's going to make something magically different, and that's just not how learning works. Exactly as Brie was saying earlier, it's not how learning works. Exactly as Brie was saying earlier, it's not how learning works, it's not how people work, it's not how animals work, that we need to introduce things over time, in a stepwise way, to allow a living being to familiarize itself with its environment.
Speaker 2:I think I, yeah that's, that's what I had to say so we have about maybe 10 minutes, and I still and I did look up somebody, because one of the things that erica and I are going to do now is we're also going to, uh, dedicate the last couple minutes of the episode to somebody that's been killed in palestine so I found a journalist I just wanted to mention at the end. So, in the late, the last 10 minutes, bree, were there any things that you think are really relevant for our listeners to know about, like how to change it, what we can do about it? Are there any animal activist groups that are involved in creating change that people can join?
Speaker 4:You can follow us.
Speaker 2:I already did so shameless but for the listeners out there, you have a youtube station and it's called a zach george's dog training revolution. Is that correct?
Speaker 3:yeah, our intersectionality content is mostly yes oh, the mic go ahead our um. What was I saying?
Speaker 4:intersectionality yeah, where we discuss issue wait till it's green, see when it turns green.
Speaker 2:Yeah that time it was on okay, um, so we discussed.
Speaker 3:We discuss intersectionality issues on Instagram and Facebook, and more so than we do on YouTube. You can find us over there. Just look up Zach George. We're routinely talking about that, but I think awareness is all we're asking of the public right now. I mean, you can't change anything until you're aware of it and we notice that way that we treat dogs and other problematic systems in society, like there's a strong correlation there.
Speaker 4:A symptom that we should pay attention to.
Speaker 3:A symptom that we should pay attention to in order to make people healthy again.
Speaker 4:Yeah, what do I want to say? I think, okay, I think that the most helpful point for me to remember when I'm thinking about animal training is, instead of asking how do I stop this annoying behavior, if you just ask, why is my dog doing this annoying behavior? Like, just change that very first question and see where it leads you from there, because I think that fundamental shift can really take you very, very far in animal training and in the end, you'll have a better trained dog.
Speaker 2:Which is comparable to parenting too. It's the exact same thing. If a child has an issue, maybe ask why they have the issue, versus punishing them for having the issue. So it's the exact same thing, it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to invite people not only to follow Zach and Bria in their work, also to look into cooperative care as a model. So there are some resources especially for specifically cooperative care is the discussion of how to prepare your pet for a long-term relationship with veterinary care. Which is very important because we want that bond. We are here foundationally and if you don't feel this way, primarily as a veterinary professional, you might need a break. You might have some burnout. The primary purpose is in stewardship and optimization of the human-animal bond, to enhancing that, optimizing it, enriching it in multiple dimensions. I think that is to aspire to and you should also seek to have that type of relationship with the animal care team in your life. And if your animal care team doesn't make you feel that way, you can let them know and then potentially hopefully find another location that will be able to better meet your needs. I actually, matt. I do have a story of a Palestinian young man that is actually directly related to this that I would like to share.
Speaker 2:Do you want to share that? And then next time I'll share the one that I had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think we can see if there's space for both, right, okay, sure, yeah, so also, I dropped the article and a podcast in reflection on it into the chat so you can add it to the show notes. This particular story was in all of the heartbreak and devastation that comes from observing millions of people and countless animals and wildlife be subjected to some of the most advanced weaponry bombardment in existence for two years. This was one of the stories that took my breath away and it's the story of Mohammed Bahar. Mohammed Bahar was 24 years old young man, palestinian man, in Gaza, with Down syndrome. He was murdered with an Israeli police dog, mauled to death, and it was recorded. That recording exists. There is an audio recording of his last words to this dog, which emphasizes everything we've talked about. My dear, that is enough, um, um. As an autistic person who has within the cohort of my community people who are non-verbal and people who are unable to communicate using words, of which you know, this person had limitations on that and how astutely he understood that this animal, this dog that was killing him and attacking him, was not to blame, to blame, and that he held that in the words that he was saying and to the type of human being that is in able, in that moment, literally to say to their the, the weapon of their death, and their pain in that moment my dear, that is enough. I, I have no words and this will be with me for the remainder of my life. And um, and the injustice of it. Uh, and not only that, he was not found by his family until a week later. So, when we look at this story, when we understand the story of how animals are used by violence, these animals are forced into the position of being used to brutalize people, and it is unconscionable. It is unconscionable. And the people that are involved in shipping animals around the world for this purpose, it is unconscionable.
Speaker 1:I also included a podcast by an Israeli activist who has a conversation with another Israeli activist whose sibling also has Down syndrome, and they reflect that to understand that. What if it was my child? What if it was my sibling? What if it was my child? What if it was my sibling? What if it was someone that I loved deeply that was by themselves burst in a pond by an animal and usually these are belgian malinois and german shepherds um, that are imported from outside of Israel, by the way, to be mauled to death, and I don't like.
Speaker 1:I have been bitten by animals, I have almost been bitten by dogs. I have people that I know in my community who have been mauled to death. It is unacceptable for that to be to happen as a weapon rather than an after effect of someone trying to provide care to an animal that is not ready or is wounded or has that history like I. I'm glad to have at least this platform with which we can speak about this and the support of all of you to like share the story, because it's been. This was in July last year.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I remember that story when it happened it's been a year Absolutely horrible, tragic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I remember that story when it happened. It's absolutely horrible, tragic. Yeah, it is, it's and that's just, you know, the one that we're, that we're hearing about. I mean, these, these things happen all the time and it's been going on for centuries. It's not normal or necessary, it's not restricted to Palestine either.
Speaker 2:Right, Erica. Thank you for sharing that. I just want to make sure you're okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm good, I let it out as it happens. I don't hold it. I share it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's I. Actually, when you first, when you first said you had a story, I thought you were going to talk about the person that was raped by a dog in Israel, cause that also happened, which we can certainly talk about at a different time. It's just, there's no words for that level of atrocity. Yeah, I mean, it was really powerful, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I think we'll all wait, because part of me also wants to honor one person each episode, right, so that they that person has that know as their kind of own. Do you know what I mean? Um, it's the least we could do. I wish we could do more than that, but it's just. It's again, there's no words. This is the stuff that makes me speechless and I I talk for a living, but this is the stuff that I'm like I don't know what to say.
Speaker 4:You know, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing Mohammed. That story is awful and so hard to share, but important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I mean it circles back to the goal. People have to be aware that this is happening, and that's the only. The only way they're going to be aware is if we normalize discussions and dissent around it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Zach, I do also want to express some deep thanks because I have been sitting with this deep need for the veterinary industry to talk about this openly and you know this is a conversation that we've been wanting to have for a long time, so I'm super excited that we had it today.
Speaker 1:And secondly, when you did your long form post specifically about the violence of police dogs in like a, there have been some maybe one or two publications that have come out academic articles but you were part of, I think, three people from the two from the animal behavior world, another colleague of ours so I'll drop both posts into the show notes to make sure that people can get access to it. Both posts into the show notes to make sure that people can get access to it. Who are pushing forward this question of why are dogs still being exploited in this way? Why are dogs being utilized as weapons of violence, to kill, maim, disable, terrorize, control communities? When the bond has so much more to offer us life-saving things to offer us, why are we utilizing it for death and destruction? So you helped be that public spark, so that was like a lifeline for me in processing this. So thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I appreciate that, and I know Bree also. I mean she worked on the research, the primary research, on that video as well. So thanks, yeah. So I mean we're a team, but yeah. Oh, yeah, that was a really difficult because we yeah, we worked for a good couple months on that one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we took longer than we typically do for a few reasons because we wanted to be really comprehensive and just make sure to make the best case we could so that people who were unfamiliar, who might only watch one video, at least they could see it. But it also was by far the hardest video we've ever made and there was a lot of passing back and forth in the edit when one of us hit capacity and we were like, well, it's not getting done unless you pick it up now because I'm done with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's very graphic footage.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, so anyway, thank you for that, could you?
Speaker 2:um, is that something that we can share as well that way? Can you maybe email that to me and I can add it to the to the show notes? Thank you both so much for taking time out of your schedule to come and talk on the podcast. I I really appreciate it, and Erica, thank you, as always, for setting that up so for the people who are listening. I would also like to end with a note that we have talked about some heavy stuff, which we have been doing a lot, so make sure that you do some self-care every day to make sure that you don't burn yourself out. So thank you again for listening and we'll see you again soon. Hello everybody, and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
