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United States of PTSD
Season One: Mental health concerns are on the rise in the United States. This podcast will look at the influencing factors contributing to the decline of our culture. With the rise of school shootings, political divisiveness, increasing levels of hate, and a chronic war of peoples' rights, we have entered a domestic war that never ends. Our podcast will look at whether this is done by design or is it an abject failure. We will discuss it from a clinical and common-sense perspective. Secondarily we will discuss ways to protect yourself from being further traumatized. Hosted by Matthew Boucher LICSW LCDP (licensed in RI) who has over 20 years of experience working with people who have addictions and trauma with a specialty of pregnant/postpartum women. Co-host Wendy Picard is a Learning and Development consultant with 15 years of experience, lifelong observer of the human condition, and diagnosed with PTSD in 1994.
Season Two: Is joined by Donna Gaudette and Julia Kirkpatrick BSW. Julia is currently working on obtaining her MSW and her LCSW. She is a welcome addition to the podcast.
Season Three: Cora Lee Kennedy provided research and worked as a temporary co-host. Dr. Erika Lin-Hendel joins as a co-host for season 3.
United States of PTSD
S 3 E: 23 Holy Terror Part 2
Amy returns to United States of PTSD to complete her powerful story of surviving clergy sexual abuse and the long, winding path to healing through religious deconstruction.
Following her abuse at age 15, Amy faced institutional gaslighting from the Catholic Church. Officials questioned what she "did to seduce" the priest and sent her parents a deliberately vague letter with double negatives that absolved them of responsibility. When they finally agreed to pay for therapy, they insisted on church-approved therapists—a dangerous conflict of interest that led to confidentiality breaches and further trauma.
The psychological damage of religious trauma compounded Amy's suffering for years. Growing up in purity culture, where virginity determined a woman's worth but consent was never discussed, left her feeling irreparably damaged after the assault. "If you're not a virgin when you get married, you're worthless," she explains. This toxic message, combined with being labeled as "trouble" by church authorities, fueled years of self-destruction and self-hatred.
Amy's deconstruction began slowly with questioning the institution rather than God. Watching "Spotlight," the film about clergy abuse in Boston, proved pivotal when she unexpectedly saw her abuser's name on screen. This public validation helped her redirect internalized shame toward its rightful target—the church that enabled her abuse. Years later, a confrontation with Cardinal Sean O'Malley, who showed no emotion as she sobbed about her trauma, cemented her disillusionment.
For those navigating similar journeys, Amy offers compassionate guidance: connect with others who've deconstructed, recognize the parallels between religious control tactics and cult behaviors, and honor your own timeline. "A big part of it is regaining your autonomy," she emphasizes, "allowing yourself to ask questions but also to take it as slow as you need to."
Have you experienced religious trauma or questioning your faith? We'd love to hear your story. Reach out to share your journey or find resources for healing.
The Keepers Documentary: What Happened in Cathy Cesnik Murder Case? - Netflix Tudum (we do not support Netflix)
BITE Model of Authoritarian Control - Freedom of Mind Resource Center
(188) Cults to Consciousness - YouTube
Home - BishopAccountability.org
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4
Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.
Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.
Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. Today we are privileged to have Amy back and we are going to do a part two to Amy's story. Amy, welcome back.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely a pleasure we're going to. I know you wanted to fill in some gaps on the story before we get to how you went through the deconstruction process, so I'm just going to give you the floor to talk about that part and then we'll take over after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. I wanted to fill in these gaps because I think it would add context to my deconstruction process. So one thing I didn't really talk about in the last episode was how everything came to an end with the archdiocese and the district attorney's office, with my perpetrator. So I did end up talking to the DA and I decided that I wasn't like emotionally, like in any kind of place to go forward with pressing charges. I actually don't think I could even do that today at 40. It just it. It takes a lot and I have a lot of respect for survivors who do do that, because I know it's not easy.
Speaker 2:Would you mind talking about that process a little bit, cause you had said you don't know that you'd be able to do it now. And can you? Because for people who are listening I know people understand that it's difficult but I don't necessarily know that everybody gets it.
Speaker 1:So maybe if you explain a little bit, if you don't mind a little bit about that process, yeah, I mean for me at least it was for for then I was, I was 15, so I I really just wanted to be a normal teenager and hang out with my friends and I didn't want to be talking about this anymore.
Speaker 1:For, like for now, at my age that I am now, I am still intimidated by the church's attorneys. They are notoriously really vicious towards victims. From stories I've heard from other survivors who have gone through that process, I'd like to think that I have a thicker skin and I could handle it, but I do think that it would destabilize me and so it's more me trying to self-protect. I think it would be difficult to talk in detail about what happened, to be grilled by attorneys calling me a liar, and to be grilled by attorneys calling me a liar, to kind of like be put back in that situation that I was in when I was 15, when I was being painted as this troubled girl. I think it would bring up a lot that I haven't not that I haven't fully processed it. I just don't think I want to put myself in that situation, and that's also part of me taking my power back.
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing that, amy, and that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I know when I I don't think it's isolated to the church either.
Speaker 2:When I, before I, became a social worker, one of the volunteer jobs I had was working for what is now called oh my God, I can't remember the name of it now Day One, but it used to be the Sexual Assault Trauma Resource Center in Rhode Island, and when I went for the training it was odd because I think I was actually the first male that ever went through the training it was all women.
Speaker 2:I was a victim advocate, so we would go out to the hospitals and talk to people who had been sexually assaulted, and I remember during the training they had told us the way the police interviewed victims back then this was in the early nineties was to get the victim to admit that they were lying and intentionally focus on trying to disprove them. And the rationale behind it as sick as it is was that their belief was that if they could withstand that then they would not back out of going to court. I mean, obviously the whole thing is absurd, but that's what happened and I don't know that it's that much better. I think maybe we've just shifted the way we do it, but it certainly is something that happens outside of the church as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's horrifying, but I believe it. I mean, that's something that we see, that happens, that we've heard those stories before. So, yeah, I actually don't think it's changed much and I know for certain the church's attorneys haven't changed their methodology. So, like I had said in the previous episode, I'm involved with SNAP, which is the Survivors Network of those abused by priests. So I've gone to a lot of support groups and I just want to point out that the average age that a victim of childhood sexual abuse usually first tells somebody is, I think, 52. That's just them telling someone. That's not an age where they feel like they can go and press charges.
Speaker 1:I've sat in support groups with people in their 80s like sobbing, telling the story about their abuse when they were a child with their priest, and some of these people are looking to get justice and they are filing civil suits against the church. But it's sad because there have been survivors who have died before they got to have that day in court that they sought after. But again, I think it is a deliberate thing. Like this, abuse is so shameful and the predators kind of paint it this way that it makes it so shameful that victims don't want to come forward and talk about it. It's very deliberate. It really serves the predator and certainly doesn't do anything for the survivors.
Speaker 2:Is there when I think about one of the tropes that we hear, for when people are trying to discredit survivors of a sexual assault, they'll often blame them and say things like you know, oh, it's because of what they were wearing, or it was because of you know they were leading me on. Is there a trope in the church? Is there something that they say to the victims about what happened, like how they blame them specifically or no?
Speaker 1:It's. It is, um, the that whole thing where I was asked you know, what did he do to seduce you? I think that that is a common question that is asked. It's because priests are viewed as these, like really holy people that are separate from the parishioners, like the congregation, um, that I think some people can't wrap their heads around the fact that they might be bad people, they might be predators, and often the excuse that I hear is that, oh well, they were just struggling with demons or like that's the devil working in him and we need to pray for him. And you know, it's or it's that the victim actually seduced this priest, like they wouldn't have done it if it weren't for this victim seducing them.
Speaker 2:Would they then turn that into the narrative that the victim was somehow possessed or doing devil's work to try to seduce the priest? Is it that insidious, or is it?
Speaker 1:I've never really heard it go that far in that narrative, but that's not to say that it hasn't because I could totally see it going that way.
Speaker 2:That's why I was asking yeah, it's more.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's more in line with that purity culture that it's women, um, specifically that control, like men's sexual desire, that like we're like the gatekeepers to their sexuality, and so I think I got blamed because I'm a girl. I don't, I don't know that. I've heard that narrative as much from male survivors, and there are plenty. The narrative that I often hear that they say is that it that they committed a sin. Still, it's yes, they did that, like that, this happened to them, but it was actually their fault that it happened.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's the same thing, same same narrative, different, different outfit it's the same thing, yeah, so thank you for so. So then, what happened once you did go forward?
Speaker 1:So I never. I I didn't ever like press charges. I that wasn't something that I could deal with. The, the, the archdiocese. After they finished their like investigation, if you want to call it that, they sent my parents a letter saying that they could not discern that this event did not happen, something along that line. They had a double negative in there, so it was very odd. Um, they said they weren't going to take any further action against this priest and that they would pay for my therapy for six months. My parents had attorneys at that point and they were like that's not good enough, and you will pay for both her and her family's therapy for as long as they need, and that's. They settled on that and that was kind of where it was.
Speaker 1:I went on with my life. I did go to therapy. The caveat to that was that initially I had to go to a therapist that was approved by the diocese, which, if, if you are a survivor of abuse from someone in the catholic church or really any church, my like two big pieces of advice to you would be one, if you feel like you can, if you want to report it and you're in a place where you feel like you can. Do not report it to your church. Go to proper authorities. And then that other advice would be if the church offers you free therapy and they're saying, hey, we have this support group for survivors or we have this therapist we recommend, do not go see those people Talk about conflict of interest.
Speaker 1:Right. It's also a way for them to control the narrative, I feel like it's still them kind of doing that mind control and doing that victim blaming, so a hundred percent, it's it, it's.
Speaker 2:It's insidious too, because you would imagine that the people that they're hiring are certainly working to push that agenda and are going to manipulate their work with clients, and that's disgusting on so many levels and the archdiocese because they're paying for the services they do ask for, like reports.
Speaker 1:I don't know how much like the. I'm sure the therapists who were like recommended by them provided tons of information. The therapists I saw later that were not affiliated with them, they were very vague and their response is probably similar to what you would send to an insurance company. But the first therapist I saw like I feel like as a social worker you're going to like like this is horrifying just because of ethics. It was a husband and wife team and my mom saw the husband and I saw the wife but I didn't know they were married. Like that was never disclosed to me and my mom would somehow make references to like things that I was saying in therapy and apparently my therapist was telling her husband everything I was saying. Who was then telling my mom who like so unethical oh my god.
Speaker 2:Well, not only is it unethical, but it's a breach of confidentiality which is illegal. So, so that's, that's. That's horrifying.
Speaker 1:It is horrifying, yeah, and you know I. What's funny is I went to somebody else eventually, but not because of that, it wasn't my choice. That therapist that I was seeing was basically like I don't know how to help you and I guess credit to her for like being realizing I'm beyond the scope of her like experience, but it was. It was hard to hear that as a teenager you know I have.
Speaker 2:I have to say I have mixed feelings about that. I agree with you. I think good for good for somebody for saying, okay, this might be a little bit outside of my wheelhouse. However, I also think there's the implied message of you're too sick for me, yeah, and I don't think that that's a healthy message at all. I mean, in terms of our code of ethics, there is a responsibility to continue to educate yourself about what's happening, and I would think a different route to that would be then to either pay for supervision from somebody who is going to give you a little bit more information or to learn about it, but not to be like, hey, you're too sick, see you later. Like I don't know, I'm not, I'm not sold on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, and it was hurtful, it definitely I was internalizing a lot of stuff that I had been told, that had been said about me that you know I was trouble Now I'm like too much for my therapist. You know I was trouble Now I'm like too much for my therapist and I internalized so much of that and it really festered into this like really bad self-hatred and you know, I kind of went down this real, like I said in the first episode, this really self-destructive path and I think in a way it was like I felt so defeated in that like I was never going to be good enough and I was never going to be able to be the person that like I wanted to be that good Catholic girl that I really leaned heavily into this label that had been put on me and so I went. You know, fine, if you think I'm trouble, I can be trouble. Like you think I'm a whore that seduces priests, I can be a whore that seduces priest, I can be a whore, and I just I acted out like really recklessly, um, like engaged in a lot of reckless sexual behavior, which is common for, you know, survivors, I I think that, specifically if you grow up in purity culture, where this like high emphasis is on your virginity and like how important that is to like your worth as a person, that they don't talk about consent though, so they don't distinguish, like yeah, but if you're raped, like that's not your fault, don't worry about it, it's just no, if you are not a virgin, like when you get married, then you're worthless, it's, it's that.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of people who grow up in that culture and do experience a sexual assault, they do tend to kind of go well, I guess it doesn't matter, I guess I should just have at it, right, just sleep with whoever, because what does it even matter anymore? The other piece of that is this feeling of taking back control a little bit of your sexuality and your bodily autonomy, like, well, okay, if I'm going to do that, at least like it's going to be my choice to do that. I mean, it's not what ends up happening is you end up putting yourself in really risky situations or you end up in really risky situations. I don't want to like put like a blaming tone to that end up in really risky situations. I don't want to like put like a blaming tone to that, um, where you do experience and experiencing more sexual assaults and um, it's just, it's a real vicious cycle. But like what's deep down in that is like your self worth that you're just. You don't feel like you're even worth protecting.
Speaker 2:There's a lot there that I want to respond to Okay.
Speaker 1:That's why I stopped.
Speaker 2:I was. You know I try not to interrupt people when they're talking. Yeah, first of all, I want to say that it's really brave of you to talk about it, and everything that you went through was it took a lot of courage, particularly at the time this was happening, and a lot of strength to go through with what you did, to say like okay, I need to talk about this. There's also a part of it that, even though we have, because any coping skill can be both toxic and healthy right, so if you are, you have a really tough day at work and you go home and you have a glass of wine but you don't have a problem with alcohol's a coping skill and it's an okay coping skill. But then if you become, if you have a alcohol problem, that's not an okay coping skill.
Speaker 2:And when I hear you say there was a part of you that said, well, if this is what I'm being labeled as, that I'm just going to own it, there's a part of that. That's also empowerment by just saying like, okay, then I'm going to take back control and I'm going to say like, okay, this belongs to me now and I that. I think that that process is healthy. But, like I had said, with the alcoholism, I think it then turns into something that's unhealthy, right, but what you talk about is incredibly normal and I think anybody who is hearing this, that has all been through something similar, can understand that there is a normalcy to taking back that power and saying like, okay, now I'm going to use it.
Speaker 2:The other interesting thing is, as you were talking about the, the amount of importance we put on virginity. It made me remember when I was, when I was going through college, my partner at the time he was an art and like English major and I remember he did a report on the etymology, the historic etymology, of where the word virgin came from and, interestingly enough, it actually meant unmarried.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:It actually wasn't connected to chastity until much later. So that and I, if I remember correctly, don't quote me on this, but I cause this was like 30 years ago when he told me this, but I remember him saying that when the, when, the, when, the time the bible was written, it actually meant unwed, it didn't mean virginal, and that that has changed over the you know, the centuries.
Speaker 1:So that's an also interesting, just kind of side note to that yeah, definitely it's the obsession with like sexual, like sex in general in a lot of religion. Um, it's, it's wild, like it's there's.
Speaker 2:They're so sexually repressed but they're also so obsessed with sex like they're so obsessed with it which is why I'm sure you've heard about how there's a connection between the app grinder crashing when there's Republican conventions going on. Because because of how many oppressed gay men are within the Republican party and like, obsessed with, like gay culture because of that, because they're not out.
Speaker 1:Absolutely that, and that's kind of where I was going with that. Is that to to be that like obsessive, it's, it's it feels very much like projection and it's just like go to therapy, please. Um, it impacts your, your relationships, though. I mean it definitely makes it difficult to like like to have a healthy, just romantic relationship with somebody I would imagine, because it's very loaded, like everything about it is a loaded conversation.
Speaker 2:How did you so you went through that that? How did you deprogram the messages that were given to you about your beliefs once you came? Once you did talk about it Like, how did you take the next step?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um. So I just want to like explain how I got from a to z. Yeah, just in between that, because I don't want to like just brush it off as if like, oh yeah, I self-destructed for 15 years and then I deconstructed um, because that was a really horrendous time um, of just really struggling with life in general around. Um. I think I was 26 and my perpetrator died and I um can I ask how you found out, was it? Like newspaper.
Speaker 2:Did somebody contact you?
Speaker 1:It was in the newspaper, my mother had it on the kitchen table like circled, like his obituary circled, um. My mother made questionable decisions in terms of how she handled like my trauma, um, and like that's how I found out, and I kind of was left to deal with that on my own, like we didn't have a conversation or anything, but that's that's how I found out.
Speaker 1:Um, I went, I reverted back to like this little, like eight year old me that was like terrified of demon possession in that time and I was terrified that this person was haunting me now and like, instead of a demon, it was him that was possessing me, and not in the way that a devil possesses you, but in that he had possession over me and he owned me, which also made it really difficult to have any kind of relationship with really anyone. So I ended up being very dissociative during those 15 years between when I left the church and when I eventually deconstructed. And then I really struggled with drinking and I used drinking to cope. And when I got to a point where I wasn't drinking to escape anymore and I was drinking to not be sick because I was very physically dependent on it, Um, that's when I realized I needed help and I went into rehab and you know that's not a one and done thing I went, you know, in and out a few times and once I had eventually gotten sober for a good year, um, that's when I really started processing like where is this like self hatred coming from? I started processing that with my therapist more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I don't think there's like one point where people like just deconstruct. I think it's a lot of like chips away at like this thing that you've built your faith. And I definitely had some things happen in my teens and that made me question, but like I had just kind of pushed it out of my mind. So but I do think like this was building when, um, around the time that I was like working through some of my trauma, I got a letter from the archdiocese saying that hey, there's just letting survivors know that there's going to be this movie coming out, Um, that's going to talk about what happened in the Archdiocese of Boston and that it might be triggering and so maybe like, don't go watch it. Like really shrewd, and I wish my reaction to that was like, oh no, I'm definitely going to see that.
Speaker 2:That was by design. Obviously, they don't want you watching it, because that's going to make people remember things and then maybe go back after the church.
Speaker 1:That was certainly not to protect you or any other actually looked that up because I was trying to find that out. I think it ran for like six months like in the theaters, and this wasn't like a big hollywood movie, it was, you know do you happen to remember the name of that so I can? I'm sorry. Yeah, it's spotlight spotlight.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you yeah, because that was the name of the team of events investigative journalists that like uncovered like what was happening. It's a good movie. I I suggest people to watch it. It is really well done. Um, I went to go see it in the theaters and the theater was packed, like this had been out for two months and it was packed. And, um, there was a scene in the film where they were doing like a montage of like they had already gotten all the all the files and there was like a montage piece where they were like circling the files and there was like a montage piece where they were like circling the files and going through it. You know they do that in movies. And there was this one frame that had like a piece of paper with all these like priest names and my priest, like the priest that abused me, his name was on the screen and that was like like holy shit, like I I wasn't expecting that wow yeah how did you react?
Speaker 1:you remember how you reacted in that moment I had a friend with me, um, and she actually grabbed my arm when it happened. She was like, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, holy crap, I. I did like feel like I was kind of gonna have a like a little bit of an anxiety attack, like I like I got short of breath and yeah, it was. It was alarming, I wasn't expecting it, but you know, it was just his name, that's okay.
Speaker 1:Um, when the movie ends, they basically have a list of all the priests who had been accused scrolling, and it's goes on for a very long time, um, and then the credits roll and the entire theater was silent, like no one was talking, and everyone just got up and left, very like solemnly. And it was a really powerful experience for me because I felt like I had just watched like my story even though it wasn't my story is so many people's story. But to watch it like on the big screen with all these strangers, and to just see that reaction, like how it affected them, I felt so validated, you know that's a powerful feeling to have yeah yeah, and I think that was like my first starting to turn that self-hatred back to like where it belonged, which is this institution that allowed this to happen, and I think my deconstructed it.
Speaker 1:It didn't start with I don't know if I believe in god anymore. It started with like I don't know if I believe in God anymore. It started with like I don't believe in this institution, I don't believe in the Catholic Church anymore. It was more that.
Speaker 2:It's almost when you were talking about the process of it. Do you know, jenga, right? The game Jenga? If you think about building the mountain, the first mountain, whatever the tower, the first time, that would be the construction of the belief system to begin with. So it didn't happen with one. I mean, it happened over the course of like years for it to get there. And then when we deconstruct stuff, it's like you're pulling out the little pieces slowly and sometimes the tower falls immediately, and sometimes you can pull out the little pieces slowly and sometimes the tower falls immediately, and sometimes you can pull out 50 of those things before the tower falls. And I think it's very different for everybody.
Speaker 1:so I'm glad you you had highlighted that point yeah, that's a really great um metaphor for that, because that is exactly what happens and there might be one, just one block that you pull out. That's like that sends that whole thing crashing down, and that moment is very destabilizing.
Speaker 2:I bet, I bet, and I would imagine it can also be again. Having played, I'm sure you've played that game too right. There's sometimes when you pull out a piece that you think it's just going to slide out really easy and it's the like, the most destabilizing piece you can pull out and I would imagine again really similar, like you can have an experience and think, oh, this is no big deal, and then bam, it's like breast shattering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and sometimes you don't notice it right away either. It's. It's like, yeah, like you don't realize how much of an impact it had on you, until later, when you're reassessing it and you're like, oh, that was, that was impactful. I didn't like it took me a little bit to get to that point where, like everything came crashing down. I, after seeing this movie, like I was really just angry. I had a lot of anger and I had a lot of questions and I had a lot that I wanted to direct towards the church.
Speaker 1:And when Sean O'Malley first became Cardinal, when he took over for Cardinal Law, he had extended like an invitation to all survivors that if they wanted to come and talk with him they could. And I this was like many years later that I was like, actually, you know what? I think I want to take him up on that and I want to talk to him. And so I reached out to like kind of my contact person at the archdiocese who helped me, who paid all the therapy, like took care of all that stuff, and I said I would like to talk to him and she gave me a little pushback Like she, she kind of tried to like keep me at bay and I was pretty forceful and they set up a meeting. My therapist came with me and I'm really glad he did, because he was a witness to what happened, so at least, like I had somebody in my corner that you know, that could like back me up.
Speaker 1:So I went and I met with the Cardinal and I hadn't prepared, like what I was going to say to him. I thought like I just, I thought I knew what I wanted to say and when I got in there I would just say it. And, um, so I get to the, to the archdiocese, and the woman who set up the meeting she goes okay, I have two things One, like I have to sit in there with you guys because we need a witness, like he needs somebody else there, basically to protect them, you know. And she's like and two, you cannot bring up money. If you bring up money, this conversation is getting shut down. And I was so offended I was like are you kidding me right now? Like that is the last thing that I'm here for. And so she was like okay, and we went and we met with him and I lost it.
Speaker 1:I just started sobbing like crying more than I had ever cried before about my trauma. Like it all just came to the surface and even my therapist was like kind of taken aback because I don't think he had seen me cry yet. Like that's how much I had been keeping this inside. And he started crying. And I'm looking at Cardinal Sean and I'm looking at this woman and they have these like just not even stoic, but like emotionless faces, like nothing, no, not even like annoyance, like just nothing. And the more they looked at me like that, I just started screaming at them, like like do you understand? Like like you're not listening to me, and I left that meeting feeling so like pissed off, that's one thing, but just so like pissed off, that's one thing, but just so like unheard.
Speaker 1:And I had brought up money. But I didn't bring it up to be like, hey, like you guys, I want money. I brought it up to basically try to like demonstrate to them that this really ruined my life. I haven't been able. I didn't.
Speaker 1:I flunked out of college. I wasn't able to hold down a good job. I was still living with my parents. I was like 31. I was a mess and I had all these medical bills that were building up because I had a lot of suicide attempts under my belt and one of them sent me to the ICU and I was in the hospital for three weeks and I had these bills and I was just like, so, like, and now I have to worry about this. But I didn't say it with any expectation that, like, I wanted them to pay it. But when we left, the woman came running out after me and she said oh, cardinal Sean said to send us those bills and we'll take care of it. And I just looked at her like I don't care, I don't care, like you are not hearing me at all, like I don't give a fuck about the money Excuse my French, I don't. And I still sent her the bills, good for you and the.
Speaker 2:the ironic thing is these are the people that are supposed to be the morally, the moral high ground. People, right, the people who are preaching about compassion and empathy and values. And here they are, being stoic, unconcerned, cold. It's the hypocrisy of how we twist things in our culture, in our society.
Speaker 1:Religion is a great proponent of this twist things in our culture, in our society. Religion's a great proponent of this. Yes, absolutely, it's so infuriating, um, so that happened. That was definitely that just kind of fed into this. Like it really solidified for me that, oh, these people don't care, they're all they're after is protecting, like their reputation and their assets. That's it.
Speaker 1:And that's when I really got like angry and I started deconstructing what I had been taught specifically by the Catholic church, like their specific teachings, and that's how that that started, cause I could no longer hold them, like you said, as the moral authority. I'm like these people are criminals and I can't, like I don't believe what they've told me anymore. I really they've already lied. Like what else have they lied about?
Speaker 1:And, um, when you start doing that it's it's hard because if you grow up in a really high control, religion it's so much of your identity. It's like I am Catholic, it's not. Oh, I practice Catholicism, I am Catholic, and I had to like literally figure out all like life's existential questions that religion tends to answer for people, and I think that's why people are maybe drawn to it, because it's why are we here? How did we get here? What happens to us when we die, like all of those real existential questions, I had to start from scratch and I didn't know anymore, and that is an incredibly destabilizing place to be in your head, and it's also the other piece of that is well, who am I, you know? What do I even? What do I even want in this world? What do I even believe? What do I understand is right or wrong? It's a real process and I think what happens sometimes is that, because it's so destabilizing, people can often hop from one high control religious group and go right to another one, right to some other cult.
Speaker 2:Or go into an abusive relationship, because there's so much parallel between the abuse of a church, the abuse of an institution, the abuse of society and the abuse of relationships and I would imagine that would be an easy jump from one to the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because in these groups it normalizes that. It. I mean, even just if you look at, you know the Christian relationship with God and I'm not I'm being broad here, but I mean if you look at the 10 commandments, even it's like don't, don't worship anyone but me, don't take my name in vain, like make sure you get to church. It all has to do with this, this like kind of feeding God's ego.
Speaker 2:The ultimate narcissism. I think we could say that right, it's incredibly narcissistic, everything about it. If you don't pay attention to me, I will punish you. You know I'm the answer to everything, and if you don't agree with me, I'll punish you. You know it's. It's just, it's, it's insidious, it's the original, it's like one of the most original abusive relationships.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I, yeah, I love that. You said that he is a narcissist and I think what happens is because it's it's God like that's considered holy. It's not just like, oh, like this is fine. We like that's considered holy, it's not just like, oh, like this is fine. We're normalizing it, it's we're idolizing it. So I think people might be drawn to other people who demonstrate narcissistic behaviors.
Speaker 2:It's like that, wow, that's a person's really godly, you know and then, to bring that a little bit further, if you look at the um christian evangelicals and who they vote for, uh it's just the epitome of narcissistic, controlling, oppressive, you know um, xenophobic, like everything you could possibly add to it, which would then reflect the values of what they're learning in their religious institution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:What would you and thank you again for sharing that, amy, and how difficult it is to kind of go through that process what would you tell somebody that might be in your shoes, that might be, or back then somebody who might be questioning, somebody who might have these experiences, but they're so ingrained in the system they can't get out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, if they're so ingrained in the system they can't get out. Yeah, if they're already questioning and maybe there's some separation at least from that community. Because you have to be careful, because in some of these groups they control so much of your life that you could even you know not really have access to your finances, so you might not even be able to get away. But I think, once there's been a little bit of a separation and you're willing to start peeling back the layers and really looking at your belief system, one thing I found really helpful was listening to other people who've deconstructed, who've deconstructed Um, and because they've gone through it, they might be able to articulate feelings that you have that you don't understand why you have them, and like put words to it. Cause that's one thing that helped me a lot was listening to other people and going, oh, my, like, yeah, that makes sense. That's exactly how I feel and that's exactly what I experienced, but I just didn't have a way of like articulating it before.
Speaker 2:Normalizing it. Building community hearing the same story from other people and that snap website that you talked about. That would be a place where people could go to find that type of connection.
Speaker 1:That would be a good place to go. Um, I think if you've experienced specifically like sexual abuse in under the umbrella of like a religious organization doesn't matter what religion to deal with that aspect of it more. I there's a really good podcast I listen to called cults to consciousness, and um it, um. It's on a pod. It's also a YouTube channel so you can check that out too. But she's a deconstructed Mormon and she interviews other people who either grew up in like actual cults or who grew up in more mainstream religions but that were high control and, um, I've listened to so many different stories of people who've grown up in so many different like sects of Christianity or um, or like in cults that there's such a parallel that runs through all of it and that is control, like that's. That's the biggest piece of it.
Speaker 1:Um, stephen Hassan, I think his name is, he's like a cult expert and he came up with the BITE model, which is like kind of a way to look at cults and it's an acronym for behavior, information, thought and emotion, and so it's looking at breaking up those things and looking at how the organization controls your behavior, how it controls your information and it creates like your, it thinks for you and it has certain rules around emotion and what's appropriate feelings and you know, like I talked about dampening out my intuition, like that kind of stuff, and so there are all these pieces from that bite model that you can see in everything from like mainstream Catholicism, like I grew up in, to like children of God, like that cult. So it's interesting but I think it's helpful to hear.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of parallel between what you're talking about then and what's happening now in terms of being told what to think and how to think and to question your own sanity and your own reality. We are at a point in society now where we can watch something play out right in front of us and somebody can then convince people it didn't happen. I mean, we've seen that play out over and over and over again, I would say probably for the last like 10 years, and it's just getting worse. With like ai now and the use of ai, people are getting less and less able to think for themselves and more dependent on somebody to tell them what to do, which is the worst possible thing we could be doing right now.
Speaker 1:I know it's terrifying and I think, also having like this piece of information, that I've been just kind of, I think, spent the last like five or six years just really delving into all these different types of communities and ways of thinking and how it does parallel to what's happening today, um, politically, it it's been very scary to watch it all unfold because this has been the plan for a very long time.
Speaker 1:This didn't just start with trump. He was just the vehicle used to get what they want, but what's happening right now has been in the works for decades and a lot of these the youth programs like Life Teen that I attended, like there are definitely other ones that are a lot more, a lot more fundamentalist and a lot more Christian nationalist driven that they've groomed teenagers to be literal warriors for Christ, to be Christian martyrs. That's very scary because it is not a big jump from convincing teenagers and getting these young kids to agree that they are willing to die for their faith. It's not a big jump from that to suicide bombings and I think we need to be realistic about it.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you said that. I mean, let's face it, how many of the school shooters and what we would call terrorists in this country fit the same demographic image? And it's not people from the middle east and it's not drag queens, right, it is. It is people who are white males, who often identify with some sort of oppressive religious group and often are within like right-leaning sides. Right, not to say it doesn't happen on the left, because I, but it's certainly more prevalent on the right. And I'm glad you said that, because Trump is not the problem. I agree with you on this. I mean, he is the symptom and I've been, I've been saying this for a long time. I mean this, this has been. We are all being groomed in different ways, which is why they're trying to really edit and get rid of social media so much because we can actually now see for our own eyes the stuff that they have been telling us is not true. And I mean I don't know if I mentioned it when on the oh, I actually should have said this at the beginning. I was telling amy that eric and I had actually recorded two episodes in between the time we spoke to amy then and now. But we wanted to record. We wanted to release the episodes in sequence, so I might say stuff today that is going to appear later on. And then next to, we did talk about what happened with Charlie Kirk and we talked about an interview that Erica had with somebody in Gaza. Those will be out in the next next two weeks or three weeks or so.
Speaker 2:I forgot where I was going with that. Oh, so what I? What I had said was that I had sent a friend of mine a message, a private message, on Tik TOK, and it was flagged A private message, and the message basically said something about the kids starving in Gaza and it was flagged. I had to screenshot the message to send it through, because it wouldn't let me send it, and I thought, okay, we've hit a new level now that they're monitoring private messages, and it wasn't anything that should have been flagged. And then I reposted a video about some kids that were being starved in Gaza and I got my first warning on TikTok and it was taken down. So they are certainly cracking down on people giving out accurate information. That does not fit the narrative that they want and it's very concerning about where this is heading yeah, it's escalated a lot, I think, in the last two weeks.
Speaker 1:I I know it's always kind of been there, but I do feel I'm feeling that more in the last two weeks. And, um, when charlie kirk was killed, my initial reaction to that, obviously it's horrible, no one deserves to be killed. But my initial reaction to that obviously it's horrible, no one deserves to be killed. But my initial reaction to that was oh crap, they're going to make a martyr out of him. Because I knew exactly what the thought process is and the belief system is for a lot of his supporters and it scared me and I knew. I knew that it was not, this was not going to be good and it hasn't been it's.
Speaker 2:it's, of course, not. I mean, we lowered the flag for him, but we didn't lower it for the, the kid that was hung from a tree and lynched in Mississippi, or the two democratic legislators that were executed, or any of the other people. It's interesting. You say that I had a similar reaction, and what I say on the episode for those of you that are listening is that people are angry, that people are celebrating it and people are angry about other things.
Speaker 2:But the reality is is whatever somebody has a response to, it's a traumatic response. It's a reaction, a normal reaction to an abnormal scenario. I mean, we're not used to seeing people get assassinated on live TV. So whatever reaction somebody has in the moment is normal, whatever it is, because it's an abnormal thing. We're not used to it. So stop beating people up for having reactions. If, if that's, if, that's what you're doing. I don't mean you and just saying in general. But I also want to point out that I agree with you and this was my rant, so I'm going to do my rant now, if you don't mind it's perfectly in tune with what we're talking about is.
Speaker 2:I am so pissed off right now with all my liberal friends and I'm going to tell you why and obviously I have a lot of more friends that are liberal is because they're doing the same thing with jimmy kimmel now, jimmy kimmel getting fired for expressing his opinion, which, from my understanding, wasn't even that big of a deal. What he said is problematic because it violates the First Amendment, since I mean our freedom of speech, because the government is interfering with a private citizen's ability to talk. That's completely unconstitutional. So I get that people are upset about it. But what pisses me off is for two freaking years now two years I have been telling all of these people to boycott Disney and Starbucks and all of the companies that are funding genocide, and all I heard from every single one of them repeatedly was well, you got to live your life, you know you can't like boycott that stuff. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now that a white comedian gets fired from TV, suddenly all of these same people who have been silent for two years are up in arms and boycotting Disney, disney, I think it's. I read today it lost five, I think it was $5 billion. I can't remember what it was, I'll look it up later, but they lost a significant amount of money from boycotts in two days Two days. Could you imagine if all of those people put their money where their mouth was about Palestinian people being executed? But the reality is they don't give a fuck about the Palestinian people. So all of the liberal people who are listening to this like own the fact that you're a hypocrite and that's my rant. So I was so pissed off about that.
Speaker 2:I'm still in pissed off about it and I've every single one of them. I've been confronting them on it. Where the hell were you for the last two years? Where were you? And the responses I've gotten from some people is I didn't know. That's not an excuse. It's been all over the place. People have talked about it. I've posted a shit ton about Disney. I mean, I used to go to Disney four to five times a year. I added up how much I spent at Disney one time, including, like plane tickets, staying at property, purchasing merchandise. I've paid for other people to go to Disney. I spent almost as much as I spent on buying my first house.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:That tells you how much I used to go there and I don't go. I have not gone since I don't buy anything from Disney. I will not go back to Disney and I have boycotted everything that I possibly can within reason. That's on that list. Now, that's not to say for people out there. If you can only afford to shop at Walmart and that's the only place you could buy, obviously you can't boycott that if that's the only place you could buy. Obviously you can't boycott that if that's the only place you can purchase stuff in. But Disney is not a necessity, it's a luxury. And if you could not cancel your Disney channel for the 400,000 people that have been killed in Palestine largely children, you need to check yourself why one white comedian was the reason why you boycotted Disney.
Speaker 1:Right, that's such a good and valid point and and I, I feel like, I, I feel like it's easy, it's easy to ignore what's happening not in our backyard. It's like now that they feel like they're being touched by it, it's a different story, um, but it's.
Speaker 2:it's horrifying it's hard, and actually all of the people because because Bernie has finally admitted it's a genocide. He said it sometime this week, this past week.
Speaker 1:Is that because the UN?
Speaker 2:Oh, probably he's a freaking coward, but he finally said it and all of his supporters are now like, yay, praise Bernie, praise Bernie. He's like so awesome, he's going to save us. And they're denying I actually made a couple comments on a post about it. They're denying that he that that's the first time he said it. They're like he's been saying it the whole time and I was like really prove it, link to me the first time he said it. And, of course, radio silence, because they can't do it. But they are just as delusional. So if you're out there right now listening to me and you think that Democrats are any better, you are insane, because they are not.
Speaker 2:They are not Two hundred and fifty, two hundred and fifty of our representatives, of our legislator, from every state in the country, just went to Israel. Why? Why did they all go to Israel? Why did they don't belong in Israel? We have our countries falling apart, but they're over there in Israel. Democrats Why'd they all go to Israel? Why did they? They don't belong in Israel. We have our countries falling apart, but they're over there in Israel. Democrats and Republicans, all of them. They're all over there kissing Netanyahu's ass.
Speaker 1:I think six Rhode Island. I think six Rhode Island ones went.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's disgusting. It's disgusting. These are the people we pay to represent us and they don't represent us. They represent a foreign country, which is treason by definition, and they continue to get away with it and it's, it's nauseating. But I want people to stop like doing this whole virtue signaling thing and just like boycotting stuff when it's cool and saying like, okay, let's boycott this now and then go back to doing it in a couple of weeks. No, if a company has that low of a moral compass, we should never be doing business with them again.
Speaker 1:Period, full stop, unless they rebrand everything, fire everybody and restart. I don't want anything to do with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, amy, you know that that that anger was not directed at you.
Speaker 1:I know and I love a good rant, so, um, it's, um, it's, it's amazing, how, like, how like. Just the fact that you said that they lost, however much money they lost, that clearly we could do it. It's just the choice not to, and so it's like. You said, like where were you two years ago?
Speaker 2:it's just it's. I'm gonna look it up right now. Hold on. I should have, probably right now, 3.87 billion dollars that they have lost, which is this is now again. Imagine two years ago if everybody had done that, this genocide would probably be over. So, all of those people, I'm sorry, but you're responsible. You're just as responsible as, as you know yeah, I know that's harsh, but it's the reality. And I don't think we can pretend that it's not, because if we say like, well, I didn't know and you know I, it was too hard for me, I think we're shrieking our responsibility. But we have co-signed all their death certificates.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if we have given disney a dime, starbucks a dime mcdonald's burger king, like any of them it's yeah, I don't like I I don't have words right now because it's been so I don't know how people can ignore genocide Like that's one thing that I don't comprehend, and so I understand your anger.
Speaker 2:I, if I had I'm not even kidding If I had a dime, for every single time I've heard a person say I just can't deal with it, um, I'd probably have enough money to start Disney. You know, because I'm not even kidding, it's that prevalent and the reality is, and I'm going to, I'm going to be, if I'm pissing people off, I'm happy about it actually, because the reality is. The reality. Is you? You? You just don't care about Palestinian people, period, full stop. You, you just don't care about palestinian people, period, full stop, like, so, don't pretend to do like, don't like, don't claim that you're all about human rights and then do the exact opposite. It's it's hypocrisy, it's virtue signaling, it's just, it's it's garbage it is I.
Speaker 2:I hijacked you a little bit on that, I'm sorry, with what you were talking about. It was just it was so relevant to the moment, it was no, it fit right in.
Speaker 1:That's where we were going. So it's, you did not hijack me at all and I, I, I appreciate your passion about this and I, you know, I, I do. At the same time, I understand the that like pull to not pay attention because it's so horrifying. So I've kind of made a rule I don't know if this may be for other people who are feeling that way Don't look at the news before bed, you know, do that kind of at some point in the day where you feel like you can take it in, but don't ignore it. You know, you have to know what's going on.
Speaker 2:That's an important. I do want to say that because nobody should inundate themselves all day long. I mean, I am a hundred percent guilty of looking at videos before I go to bed, cause that's when I have my downtime and then I can't sleep. So that that is something I definitely need to stop doing and I think it's fine to take a break. You know, if I was going on vacation tomorrow, I would turn my phone off for whatever time I was on vacation and not look at it, and that's fine because it's situational.
Speaker 2:But I know what's happening and I'm not ignoring it and the amount of things that are going to change between that day and Friday or whatever. It's probably not going to be anything that didn't happen the week before, but we have to keep paying attention to it because these are, you know. I think I said in one of the previous episodes, if you ever wondered what you do during the holocaust, you're doing it right now because the scholars have actually said it is passed over from being a genocide and it is now a holocaust. And we are so again. If people were like, oh, if I was alive during the holocaust, I would have done this, we'll prove it because you're not doing that, you know. But I to go back to something you said, because I do want to tie this in when you were talking about how important it is to nab I'm using the word nab um adolescents into these cults, because that's when they are developmentally the most impressionable and when they have the invincibility complex where they think that they can't die, which is why the military gets kids at the age of 18 and promises them the world, because none of them think they're going to die, and then we completely exploit them on that.
Speaker 2:But that's what's happening at the idf. They have taken all of these kids and given them this ideology that it's okay to shoot babies in the head with sniper rifles. And those kids believe that. You know they, they are on some level victims of being gaslit and brainwashed themselves and part of a cult, gas lit and brainwashed themselves and part of a cult. Yeah, the fact that. And then you have, we know that they're also committing suicide and we we had, like Aaron Bush, self emulated, you know, because of, like all of the stuff that they're seeing and they can't wrap their brain around what's happening. It's, but that's what. That's the best time to get to get people to believe what you want to believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's very, very dangerous when you have a war that's being driven by some kind of ideology, not just like I want this piece of land, give it to me. It's more, I want this land because it's my god-given right to have it. So that's very, very dangerous when you start fighting for this, for an ideology or like a belief system. And I I did want to talk about this because, like I was talking about in t-mania, how you do, they did really literally groom these people to be soldiers. I don't know if this was like a massive, like a mainstream thing, but when Columbine happened, there was a story that circulated. It definitely circulated in like Christian circles, but I don't know if it like made like mainstream, so you'll have to let me know. But it was about one of the victims who who died, who. The story is that she was asked if she believes in god and she said yes and she was killed and I think I did, I think I did hear about that.
Speaker 2:I remember hearing that. Yeah, I do okay.
Speaker 1:So the like christian circle, they ate this up and they really exploited this poor like young girl's murder um to just justify and push this whole martyrdom and persecution kink that they have where. They're coming for you, they're coming for us christians. They want to take away, like our beliefs and you're not going to be able to, like, go to church anymore. Just the persecution um complex that they have. And they elevated this girl who, like sometimes these stories they would get extrapolated to be like that the shooter said, well, if you say no, I'll let you live and if you say yes, I'll kill you, like just to really hone it in that. Oh no, he shot her because she said she believed in god and this story would be told to us and I remember hearing it and being asked as, like a 15, 16 year old what would you do in that situation? Like, would you have enough faith to to die for God? And like, no, I think of that and I'm like that is fucked up. I'm sorry, I keep swearing. That is messed up.
Speaker 2:That's okay. I did too. Okay, all.
Speaker 1:That's okay. I did too. Okay, all right, I didn't know if it was family friendly or not. Not anymore.
Speaker 2:I could rate it as an explicit episode, and then it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:I love that, but it's messed up. It's to try to convince a teenager and prep them and tell them that you're being persecuted. That's the other piece of it. So it's not like this is some foreign thing that isn't going to happen to you. It's like, no, they're coming for you. Are you going to have enough faith to stand up and say like, yes, I believe in God and lay down your life for the Lord? Like, can you imagine? Like, what you have to go through mentally to prep yourself for that? It's, it's so psychologically damaging. And so I do feel for the, the idf soldiers in a way, in that way that they are being pushed into this. But they are kids, they're kids, they're.
Speaker 2:they're fighting that yahoo's war, like that's what they're doing and I have a ton of respect for the kids who have actually refused to go into. I know you keep saying the word war. I refuse to call it a war because it's not a war, it's an ethnic cleansing.
Speaker 2:Palestine doesn't even have an army, I mean, so they can't fight back. I mean, this is just, they're carpet bombing people, they're building mass graves, they're killing people, they're poisoning the food. One of the things and you'll hear on the interview with the woman that we had from gaza was they allowed food in, finally, and then, after they allowed food, and they immediately evacuated them and then bombed the building. The food was in and this is just. It's just horrific, it's torture. It's not a war, right like so I. I correct everybody when I hear that, because it never was a war and it's not going it's. It's been an ethnic cleansing since day one. It's been happening since what? 45, 46. I mean, it's just not, it's not changing and I think it's important for people, I appreciate you correcting me, actually, because you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:I correct everybody on that, because I think we have to. And the other thing is that all religions do this. I mean, this is why I am vehemently against religion. I mean, religion has been used as a weapon in every religion. It's like this I had a conversation with somebody the other day who said to me if the people of Gaza would just give the Israelis back their land, the whole world would be better and they would be happy.
Speaker 2:And I said why would they give them the land? It's their land. And he said yeah, but it's their Holy land, says who. And he's like well, you know, the Bible says it's their Holy land. And I was like okay, would you agree that the native Americans that existed in in this country before we got here that that was their holy land? And he said yes, and I said so we should give them their land back, right, because we are the colonizers that came in and murdered them. So if one of the tribes showed up at your door tomorrow and said this is my land, get out, you would happily give your house over.
Speaker 2:And he was like well, no, that's different. Why is that different? And he's like because, because this is the is' holy land. You just told me that you agreed that the Native Americans' land was holy here. I mean, there's Native American monuments all over the place that they built. They worshiped the land. So they lived off the land and he didn't get it and we had to keep kind of going in circles around this conversation and then finally he was like, okay, it makes sense. Of course it makes sense Because it's the Palestinians land.
Speaker 2:It always was. They don't get to come in and just say like, oh, it's my land, put a gun to their head and be like, okay, get out, now, I own your house. Like that's not and that's what happened. And people are justifying it is okay and looking at it and saying this is moral. Now, I stopped going to church when I was 12. I mean, I was raised Catholic but in my memory of Christianity, jesus wasn't a warrior and none of the prophets were warriors that were going out killing people and advocating for genocide. They were people who would probably be hanged today in our, in our country or most countries, as being called communists or socialists. So they certainly don't embody the values that they're screaming. They never have.
Speaker 1:No, not at all. I mean, it's definitely been. It's been co-opted by this like ultra white nationalist, Christian nationalist agenda that they've twisted it, backing away from the teachings of Jesus and even saying like, well, no, I think we're not going to pay attention to that. Let's look at the Old Testament, like Deuteronomy and Leviticus that's kind of where they're coming from. Which is this? Like wrathful, hateful God.
Speaker 2:Sounds like a God I would want to go hang out with. Let me tell you.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:I don't understand the whole appealing part of that. My God, amy, we are running out of time so I didn't know if there was any final like cause. I want to just do the uh, the memorial that I do at the end.
Speaker 1:If there was any final notes you wanted to make, no, just thank you so much for giving me the space to talk about this and for anyone who is struggling with um deconstruction and struggling with leaving their faith, to definitely reach out to other people who've maybe been there. And you also have to be sure that you're honor your own journey and honor like what your own wishes are, because a big part of it is also regaining your autonomy. So allowing yourself to ask questions, but also allowing yourself to take it as slow as you need to thank you, amy, I appreciate that, and thank you so much for coming on twice.
Speaker 2:I know that your episode had an impact because I actually got emails about it oh I forgot to tell you that at the beginning about how much people it resonated with people I'm so glad oh it was.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Anybody else that's out there that wants to come on, feel free to contact me. The one thing I hate is I get a lot of those ai generated messages that say this episode resonated with me and it's like and I just delete them, so do not send me an ai generated message. So I just want to dedicate this episode to another Palestinian who was executed by the IDF, and this article came out in November 20th of 2024 in Al Jazeera, so I will link it in the show notes. But this is and again I apologize for butchering any of these names, but his name is Dr Adnan Al-Bursh and he was a orthopedic who worked at Al-Shifa Hospital and from the article and the information that was given by eyewitness testimony was that he was dragged into the prison yard, bleeding, beaten, and they believed that he was raped to death by the IDF.
Speaker 2:Again, this is a doctor that they are, of course, calling a terrorist, because anybody who is Palestinian is a terrorist according to them, and nobody should be raped to death, and the article seems like the torture went on for a long period of time, and I think it's important for us to put names to these people and remember what happened to them. So that's where I want to end with there, and again, I will link that in the show notes. So, amy, thank you so much for being here, and if I pissed people off, good, go do something about it. Yeah, even if that's you don't listen to me anymore, that's fine, but still go do something about it. Don't be a hypocrite. Thank you everybody.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Matt.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and thank you again for listening. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.
