S 3 E: 25 Lila’s Voice from Gaza

We share Lila’s frontline account from Gaza and the mutual aid network she helps lead for children and orphans, weaving her poetry with hard facts about blockade, targeted healthcare, and the human cost of deliberate deprivation. We explain how to get funds and attention to people on the ground and how to build people power where you live.

• bonus context for Lila’s interview and work 
• mutual aid logistics under bombardment and blackout 
• how funds reach Gaza through trusted routes 
• starvation as state policy and targeted healthcare 
• One Health impacts of war on soil, animals, and people 
• culture, propaganda, and language that normalize harm 
• policing tactics abroad reflected in domestic policy 
• Lila’s poetry as testimony and memory 
• practical ways to donate, follow, and organize

Donate to direct action mutual aid campaigns. You can donate directly to Lila; follow Humans to Be and Lila’s handles in the show notes. Support Gaza Soup Kitchen, medical missions like Doctors Without Borders, and AWAG. Most importantly: do everything you can to hold our governance and our leaders accountable. Build people power. Use your voice because your voice matters.

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4

Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Bonus Mini: Why Lila’s Story
• 2:10 Mutual Aid Networks in Gaza
• 5:30 Funding Hurdles and Getting Money In
• 8:30 The Interview Logistics and Risks
• 12:00 Dehumanization, Care, and Youth
• 16:30 Starvation Policies and Healthcare Targeting
• 20:30 Culture, Propaganda, and War Normalization
• 24:30 One Health, War Pollution, and Climate Costs
• 29:00 Speaking Up vs Chosen Ignorance

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the United States at PTSD. Today we are going to do a mini episode that we're going to release in between a couple episodes. So this will be like a bonus episode. Erica, you had the privilege of interviewing somebody from Gaza directly. Yeah. So we're I'm going to attach that interview. I think it was about 27-ish minutes or 26 minutes about.

SPEAKER_01: 0:22

I'm not so sure. If it varies a little bit, I felt like it was shorter than that. It was shorter than that. And I'll and yeah, so this is this is an interview with Lila. She is she runs and is a coordinator for a mutual aid like organization in Gaza, which is something that a lot of Gaza community has done, where like things like Gaza Soup Kitchen, right? There are a whole bunch of different organizations that have engaged in this process of mutual aid of answering a local need. And Lila is an example of that. She is in her 20s, she's very young. And what she does is she works with children and orphans for mental health to try and bring some joy into their lives in the midst of experiencing a genocide. So Humans to Be is a wonderful organization. I learned about them and Lila through local Palestinian solidarity organizing, like that I do. I got connected to the Arizona-Palestinian Solidarity Alliance, APSA, in Arizona that is um Palestinian-led and also has a lot of connections and relationships with people in Palestine, obviously. And Humans to Be is one of the organizations that has a relationship, kind of like co-posting and et cetera. When donating to these types of organizations, you usually have to go through like GoFundMe or other types of organizations. There's a lot of, it's very difficult to actually get funds into Gaza. And the the ideal situation in this situation is getting money into the hands of people there so they can use that money with the resources that are there. And also it just like puts more money in the economy. And it's actually worthwhile to look into this more. And so Lyla and I have been trying to coordinate some sort of interview. We've been, well, we we just started out with a personal conversation, right? Like, um, and there are so many people who have personal relationships with people in Gaza. I know like several doctors who have been there. Um, I have other relationships with um like a I'm a co-founder of an organization called Animal Healthcare Workers Against Genocide. Um, we have some of our members are in direct, we are in direct contact with veterinary students and veterinarians there. Can learn more about it by going to our website and just trying to like help people survive. And internet connectivity is a challenge, a challenge. And also in some of these sources, like uh some of the journalists that were targeted recently that were um hit by a missile during live TV, like those locations that was separate from the people that were bombed in the hospital, or is that the same? I think it's the same, exactly the same, right?

SPEAKER_00: 3:22

Because there is a for the for the people who are listening, there's a video of that where not only were they bombed, but then the people who went in afterwards to help they were bombed on top of that, and that was live. Yeah, and they can say, I don't know how they can justify this as self-defense.

SPEAKER_01: 3:36

I mean, it's it's well, they were like, it's a surveillance camera. It turns out it was actually a journalist camera that was being protected, so it was a place where journalists would go to both record the landscape because you're in a taller building, right? So you'd get another view, and also a location where the signal is strong enough for them to get video and content out. So it was part of the interview and discussion with Lila had is that we were coordinating back and forth for weeks, trying to trying to actually coordinate asynchronous time, which is so like people don't understand how how difficult that is. Like she was basically sitting on the back of a car for 30 minutes to get to the garden where we were able to have the conversation. In addition to that, so like she also had other interviews, right? Because she's trying to like we're trying to spread information. So, number one, like follow her. My handle is at the Autistic Veterinarian, and you know, through that you can see I post frequently, I repost the things that she what platform is this on, just so people can that was on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00: 4:45

Oh, it's on Instagram, okay. It's it's so important for people to who are listening to connect to the humanity of this. So you brought up how difficult it is. So for us, in in an ideal circumstance, it would be difficult because of the time, the time difference, right? So right there, that would be a difference. But then you have a person who is worrying about being attacked and killed every second, also then trying to find a time to like reach out to the world. I mean, it's that's and she's in her 20s. Like, I can't, for people who are listening, think back to what you were doing in your 20s. I can't even wrap my brain around that because what I was doing in my 20s is like partying and having fun and going to college, right? Not having to worry about getting shot every five seconds.

SPEAKER_01: 5:27

I mean, she's trying to find food for her children. It's horrifying. In the midst of this, right? She's trying to do all of these things and still finding time. And you'll you'll hear this from anyone, anyone who has a direct contact in Gaza. They are there are times where she expressed concern for me and like, how am I doing? And you'll hear other people be like, be like, this is it's not a shock because I have other people in my life who are Muslim. And also like, I come from a family of refugees, right? Like, you know, you know, you care about each other, you just care about each other. It doesn't matter if I am in the depths of the absolute worst things in my life. I care about other human beings. It doesn't stop them. So, anyway, it's like, and just you know, over the months that we've been having conversations, and I've been trying to figure out how to get information of how to get her out. And then I'm having conversations with other doctors in my life where we're trying to figure out how to get things trying to figure out how to get things in. And there's like a, you know, from March, there was like a uh over six month complete blockade on like medical equipment, which is even restricted before then, right? And I'm trying to have this, there's so many things to talk about, and like we don't even know if we're gonna have enough time to talk about them. And in addition to that, trying to coordinate our schedules, and I was it was like four in the maybe three thirty in the morning for me, which is why in some ways we did this recording, and I was just like, I felt like my mouth was full of marbles, and it wasn't it wasn't the they weren't the questions that I necessarily would have wanted to ask, but we we were in this situation where all of a sudden we didn't have the time because of of that. So I said, okay, we're going to expand this by making sure that Matt and I can have like context and a conversation to introduce the conversation because it is not when we talked, there was this small window of time where the occupation let in a small amount of food after like months and months and months of completely like nothing available. And then the the GHF, which is an absolute flipping war crime, right, of people who going to to to be shot at the squid games to try and get like a meager amount of food, of how you know, the a veterinarian that we work with that's working with Sula Animal Uh Rescue, which is one of the rescue, what the is the only rescue in Gaza that has been trying to like desperately get food and medical supplies in for animals there, because that's happening too. And like there's just so much to talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 8:25

Yeah. You know what? I wonder, we don't have to explore this now, but it would be something to think about down in the future. You brought up Squid Games, and I was thinking about whether or not Squid Games and like the Mr. Beast and all that stuff, because if that's to normalize the stuff, because you know, the people enjoying that show, right?

SPEAKER_01: 8:42

They think it's I had to stop watching it it could be that they go they got inspiration from it, and it's possibly possibly, or it could be sensitive. But like Elon Musk, some of these people, the fact that like it's called Palantir, the surveillance situation is called Palantir. That's a Lord of the Rings reference. We can absolutely talk about how culture and art and other things influence and inspire, and like these people are like living people are like in Tel Aviv watching like media that is available online, and that's they're like inspired by what they watch. Of course, they're looking around for things that they can utilize in social engineering, propaganda, all of these things. Literally, their mindset, they took strategies from like this is like reflective of strategies that the United States used on the indigenous population. We see this they are using like Gaza is a concentration camp. Absolutely on a large scale.

SPEAKER_00: 9:45

And we can we'll explore that. I'm gonna put that on the list of things to talk about. We'll explore that later. But with the with the interview, I also want to point out that I think I don't know if this is what happened with you, Erica, but when you were saying like your mouth was full of marbles and you you were kind of pressed for time. I find sometimes because what they are going through is such an atrocity, and the lack of food being allowed in, I think it's important to point out that it's also baby formula and medical supplies. Impact formula. Who in their right mind prevents baby formula?

SPEAKER_01: 10:19

It's a deliberate strategy of genocide, it's an absolute genocide.

SPEAKER_00: 10:25

They've openly admitted that.

SPEAKER_01: 10:26

I mean, there's to kill the children, it's a warfare on children. They they had an IVF facility that they bombed because when you continuously contaminate the soil with war pollution, right? What do you think the population is exposed to? Of course, it's going to change the reproductive capacity of the population, and then you kill the babies.

SPEAKER_00: 10:59

They also have the largest amount of children amputees in the world, yes, and then they bombed the prosthetic factory.

SPEAKER_01: 11:08

They bombed the prosthetic factory, in addition to that. Um, Dr. Abu Safia, who has been imprisoned, um he's a pediatric surgeon.

SPEAKER_00: 11:24

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01: 11:25

The decimation of the healthcare system is by design in order to kill off the population. That's a plan. And so this is so me as like I'm a veterinarian because both of my families experienced starvation. So like here I am trying to have an interview with someone who like you can you can hear it in the first, like, she she because I wasn't even knowing whether not she was actually gonna be able to show up.

SPEAKER_00: 11:54

I was, I I have to say, I was impressed with how collected she was, right?

SPEAKER_01: 11:58

That that to me was she she has to be.

SPEAKER_00: 12:01

Of course. I mean, it's it's a traumatic thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:04

Well, it's not, you know, she has been she's grown up, and one thing that she mentions though, like when the food comes in, she's like, this is just a step there trying to placate people for a moment before it gets really bad. And what happened immediately within two days of this is when they said, We're going to invade Gaza City. Yep. I'm really grateful to have this opportunity to like explain a little bit more about the context because so veterinarians have this ethic, right, that we talk about. It's been since like the the 80s. It actually comes out of it's a it's an American veterinarian who spent 10 years in Lebanon, came up, was the father of a theory of one health. So, like the very and and this one health concept is the the idea that human, animal, and environmental health are interconnected. The place where my family originates from, my on my father's side, is is is now uh Czech Czechoslovakia. And or the Czech Republic. Is it the Czech Republic?

SPEAKER_00: 13:08

I think it's the Czech Republic.

SPEAKER_01: 13:10

It was a forest area, it's near the Black Forest, right? So uh a rural community um and it was bond out. My sister got to go there once with my grandmother. It's still ruins, and this was ruins and brought a brick from the house, right? So family, we didn't have a key, we have a brick. When you grow up understanding war and displacement, you don't glorify the dropping of bombs.

SPEAKER_00: 13:42

No, you don't.

SPEAKER_01: 13:42

I had family in Dresden who only survived because she went to the river, she didn't stay. So over Dresden was firebombing, it's compared, it's an example of the horrifying things that humans do. Dresden was a city of refugees, was not considered a military target, and it was firebombed. And in a few days, 230,000 people were burned to death, and they dropped papers on a population, which is exactly what they did in Gaza.

SPEAKER_00: 14:13

It's what they do everywhere.

SPEAKER_01: 14:15

Yes. And so when, and that was the first time it happened. So that is those are the things that I grew up with, and so it was very simple for me to recognize I don't turn away from war because it affects us all. Going to Austria and walking around parts of Austria and being like, oh, like this is what it would have looked like in parts of Germany that were completely destroyed. So, like, you I think that there's this concept of what does it mean to destroy a building? And I had a wonderful conversation with someone that I'm not going to name. Well, no, I think I could talk about this. Dr. Temple Grandin. So and the one thing that she was able to like, we we talked a bit because some uh colleagues and I gave an anti-war talk at the AVMA, which was very interesting situation. We had to really thread the needle a lot. And uh we talked about the destruction of buildings, and so like I don't I don't think people understand the degree of destruction and how much that compromises us all, because the amount of pollution and carbon emissions that have been put into the war machine are not calculated. The military does not have to talk about its carbon emissions and how and there's like the amount like this will this could the type of like endless war could very well result in the human species and many other species on this planet not being able to live all because like these these men who are fantasizing about going to space, which is not possible because there are as a stem cell biologist and someone who has a background in developmental biology, life made in space does not work. The embryos from mice that they were made in space have so much epigenetic damage, it cannot create another viable living being that can then reproduce.

SPEAKER_00: 16:35

That's fascinating. I didn't know that. Erica, there were two things I wanted to say. So one is when you were saying that people don't understand, I actually think people don't want to understand. If I had a dime for every single person I've heard that said, I just can't deal with that stuff and it doesn't affect my life, so I'm going to ignore it. It it's a super frustrating because they are choosing ignorance and they are choosing genocide.

SPEAKER_01: 16:59

Well, I'm thinking about Amy, right? The conversation that we just had with Amy.

SPEAKER_00: 17:03

Yeah. And the other thing I want to say before I forget, too, is that when you were talking about it's men, I mean, let's not forget uh there, I I I it is largely men, but there was a very famous uh singer recently, female, who decided to use her status to take a trip to space.

SPEAKER_01: 17:22

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00: 17:24

Yeah, so and and these are the things that I've done.

SPEAKER_01: 17:25

I remember the thing, yes, that was that was that was that was um she got the response. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:32

And these these are the people that I mean, these are these are also there's a reason why they take celebrities and singers and people with influence and send them over to Israel because it's the propaganda machine. I mean, think about the celebrities who signed missiles with their autograph. Like some of them I I used to like. I've unfollowed every single one of them. I think they're garbage, they're propaganda, they're propaganda.

SPEAKER_01: 17:55

Anyone, anyone who signs a weapon of war who says, all right, not only because each of those missiles, think about how much they cost. They are how much those dollar bills, so someone wants to sign something that represents the taking, the stealing of how many millions of dollars that could have been gone into education, into healthcare, and infrastructure, into like so many things for the people.

SPEAKER_00: 18:35

And then that is also using slaughter people.

SPEAKER_01: 18:38

Assign that represent to then not only slaughter people but destroy the soil to destroy the land. Do you think there are papers about the soil productivity in Afghanistan and nourishment being down? There's also papers on how increase in birth defects. This is the kind of stuff that lives in my head because I am trained in multiple areas that allow me to have some perspective as well as my upbringing, the fact that I'm on DHD. So I just like can't.

SPEAKER_00: 19:13

That's why we make a good team because your strength is that part, my strength is the mental health part of it, and how it like impacts people like on an individual level and as a societal level. And I think just because only because we are doing a mini episode and we still have to attach the Lila part to it. Layla?

SPEAKER_01: 19:28

Lila, Lila.

SPEAKER_00: 19:30

I want to draw the dot the connected dots for people. You had said this, Erica, but I want to make it clear to everybody that after the food was brought in, they were then told they had to evacuate, and then the the food and the area they were keeping in it was bombed. And that was within like a 48-hour period. So these people who are being starved to death, because it's not it's not that they're starving, they're being starved. I think that the the uh semantics are very important there, right? Like it's a it's a war.

SPEAKER_01: 20:01

It's a deliberate, it's a deliberate, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 20:04

And we the other thing I want to point out too, to add to how horrific this is. So if you're listening to this and you're still on the fence or you're still thinking that Israel isn't a genocidal apartheid country, I mean, this is the stuff that you can look up. This is all public information. I mean, you may, Google may censor it, but if you go look in other places, you might be able to find it. They they had a whole flotilla, boats going to bring Gaza food, the people in Gaza. They bombed one of them. So what kind what country can get away with preventing formula from getting to kids, carpet bombing kids, carpet bombing healthcare professionals, destroying and eliminating all journalists that can report on it, and then bombing a flotilla, which would be the equivalent of bombing the Peace Corps. And they're getting away with it with our tax dollars. So if you're listening to this and you're still on the fence, you shouldn't be, number one. But two, I hope you are being active and calling like your senators, your you know, congressional people and saying, like, this has got to stop, like our money can no longer support this stuff. Because as Erica said earlier, our infrastructure is falling apart, our healthcare is falling apart, nobody can even afford to get healthcare anymore. We have food insecurity in this country, which we shouldn't have. Amount of people who are living in homelessness is rising. And if you think this is a Republican issue, you're dead wrong because it is a both sides issue. There is one party in this country. And if again, if you doubt that, look up who pays your representatives, because most of them are paid by AIPEC. And most of them are going to continue to defend Israel. And they've been pretty blatantly clear about this. And the only way that is ever going to change is if we start humanizing the people that they're trying to dehumanize and really come together and say, like, this is not in anybody's best interest. I mean, Eric has talked about the damage it's doing to the the ecology in the world. The the the easiest way to get rid of people is to dehumanize them. And that's what they are continuing to do to people in Gaza. But the facts speak for itself. How many countries has how many countries has Palestine bombed?

SPEAKER_01: 22:04

I would say zero. Zero, right?

SPEAKER_00: 22:07

Zero. And how many countries?

SPEAKER_01: 22:08

For people who are like, oh, it includes like bombing in Israel, like, guess what? That land is Palestine.

SPEAKER_00: 22:14

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01: 22:15

Or you could say one, zero to one. Right. You could have an argument about it.

SPEAKER_00: 22:18

But look at how many countries Israel has bombed with impunity. I mean, they've killed American citizens, they've bombed American ships.

SPEAKER_01: 22:25

They bombed Qatar this morning.

SPEAKER_00: 22:27

They bomb whatever the hell they want. And I do want to give kudos to Spain because Spain is the first European country now to say, that's it, we're we're doing an arms embargo, they're putting sanctions on them, they're not allowing them to fly through their airspace anymore. And kudos to Ireland as well, you know, and Mexico and some of the other.

SPEAKER_01: 22:47

You have to understand, like, listeners, like, I I apologize, I apologize for the mouthful of marbles that I had when I was speaking with Lila specifically. And so I do want to do a couple of things um before we close because like you have power as an individual. Matt and I have been talking about this, right? We are talking in our spaces of work, talk to people, build your confidence. If you're not confident yet, get connected to people who can help you build your confidence. Getting connected, make make community connections. There's Palestinian solidarity, like um advocacy work happening everywhere, right? And then also just like listen to Palestinians.

SPEAKER_00: 23:32

I would I would add to that too. I mean, just because of how many I follow on TikTok now, when I see live videos of people being bombed, I feel like I know the people who are there. I see them running in the background. And I'm like, I know that one, I know that one, I know that one, right? These are people that I'm fully invested in. And if listen, if I had a million dollars, I'd be spending it to get them out of there.

SPEAKER_01: 23:52

Yeah, yeah. Lila sent me some of her poetry. So I do I'm gonna include that. Oh, can we include that? Yes. I'm gonna um include that. So I'm gonna do a little bit of a reading. Um, and I encourage you, I'm gonna um humans to be, you know, and a message from humans to be and Lila today is eyes on the flotilla eyes on the flotilla. Right. So when I do want to put this one last thing out there. Um when international waters or other waters are used for attack and for impunity, right? We have one example very recently um of uh our government shooting with a missile, which is not the way that the US does interdictions, because we have things like the Coast Guard that don't cost that same amount as shooting a missile to blow up a boat with 11 people on it, which people are like, were they even like carrying drugs?

SPEAKER_00: 24:57

It's 11 people we'll never know because all the evidence is gone and that's intentional.

SPEAKER_01: 25:02

And it's possible that maybe there were two bad actors on there and nine innocent human traffickers, people who are bringing human trafficked to the city.

SPEAKER_00: 25:10

Well, and last I checked, um it's possible drugs selling drugs wasn't a uh punishable by the death penalty. Right. At last I checked.

SPEAKER_01: 25:18

Yes, perfect, thank you. Um yeah, so uh, you know, the one of the um boats on the flotilla was uh attacked, bombed by a drone in international waters in Tunisian waters. Um, and it's the second time, right? So when things are done with impunity, guess how many other militaries are gonna be like, okay, cool, I guess we can just like attack whoever we want in international waters. Uh it makes us all less safe.

SPEAKER_00: 25:54

It does. It does. The reporter that was shot on on TV. If people do not think what's happening there is not going to happen here, you're you're in a delusional fantasy world because it's already happening and it's happened in this country many times where they've gotten away with it.

SPEAKER_01: 26:08

Yeah, and so also part for this morning, right? Now we have the loss of bond. So now um immigrants no longer are going to have the opportunity to be in front of a judge to potentially go on bond, so they're going to be on in like just get scooped up and detained for an indeterminate amount of time that will be basically dictated by the current administration and ICE. We know how that's gonna go, right? And in additionally, the Supreme Court just lifted the ban that was the this day that was put on hold for the use of racial profiling um in um scooping up people that was in LA that they were practicing. So um just the and this is why this mini episode is really important because all of this are connected. Because guess who gets scooped up and put into prisons for without being able, without due process, without being able to be seen in front of a judge uh for indeterminate arbitrary amounts of time? Palestinians, right? This is an Israeli um policing technique, and it is here and it is now being utilized on immigrant community.

SPEAKER_00: 27:26

So yeah, uh so unfortunately on that note poetry.

SPEAKER_01: 27:32

All right, I'm gonna I'm going to read uh one, um, and there are more, but so this was last year um that she wrote this, I believe. Um 22 years. 22 years, I lived through wars, more than one escalation and desige. In the 2008 war, I was six years old. In the 2012 war, I was 10 years old. In the 2014 war, I was 12 years old. In the 2021 escalation, I was 19 years old. In the 2022 escalation, I was 20 years old. In the 2023 war, I became 21 years old. The last this one doesn't have a title. Every minute that passes, we live in a state of anxiety and anticipation, afraid of the ambiguity of our fate. Will dogs eat our corpses? How will the end be? Will I die with dignity? Or will I turn into scattered remains? Will I find someone to bury me? Or will I remain imprisoned between the walls of fear and pain, without a body, a lost soul searching for hope in the darkness of this world? Will I be disfigured in the depths of wars, turning into a memory told in the corners of oblivion? Or will I be a symbol of pain and suffering carrying my story for future generations? Countless questions resonate in my chest. Will we die under the rebel? Or will we be deprived of the martyrdom we dream of? Will the winds carry me to a place that reminds me of my homeland? Or will I remain stuck between dream and reality, between life and death in this never-ending battle?

SPEAKER_00: 29:23

Well, those were very powerful, Erica. Thank you for reading it. If you speak to her again, can you also thank her? Tell her I said thank you for the recording, and that she has my support and the support of the listeners. And if there's anything that we can do, or if there's other people that want to come on, I will, you know, you know we will give them the platform.

SPEAKER_01: 29:43

Yeah, I would say donate to direct action mutual aid campaigns. Can donate directly to uh Lila and you can follow her. Um, if you go to you can find her on um humans to be and also uh Lila as At Alshana, we will those handles into the show notes. And also, um, there are other organizations, um, but definitely like Gaza Soup Kitchen and those kind of things. Like you can figure out whether or not you want to go for the larger, like, you know, organizations that um go through more formalized channels, you know, obviously like doctors without borders, like there you can contribute specifically to medical missions. Just know that that is something that is important. You can support AWAG and just support support them in any way you can, any way as possible. But most importantly, is doing everything that you can to hold our governance and our leaders who are responsible for this absolute carnage accountable. Build people power.

SPEAKER_00: 30:52

And I think that's important too for people if you struggle financially and you feel like you can't you can't donate for whatever reason. What Erica is saying is so true is that talk to other people. If you tell one person what's going on, that one person can tell like two other people. I mean, that can be more powerful than the finances. It's use your voice because your voice matters. And when we start believing our voice doesn't matter, that's when we've lost. So keep keep it up. Um, Erica, thank you for all that. If you can send me the stuff, I'll put it in the show notes. Um, that would be great. But unfortunately, I do have to go because I have somebody in a couple minutes. But um, thank you, everybody, and thank you, Erica.