S3 E:27 Healing Past Childhood Trauma

Wendy returns for reunion episode.  Per listener request Matt shares some of his own personal trauma and how it impacted his relationships before and after his resolution.  

Below is the poem I wrote when I was 33.  This is how raw the feelings were back then.  Thankfully the pain has been healed.  

I am a bastard, thanks to you.

I bet 33 years ago you never imagined,

your polluted seed would create

the man that stands here

I N V I S I B L E

Did you think your whimsical germination

would harbor feelings of resentment powerful enough

to create the persona I have built my existence on? 

Or does my illegitimacy 

deny me the right to claim 

this hatred I have for you.

I can’t comprehend the void of feeling

Held within your perverse core

That would allow you to give me away

Forgotten and packed, out of your sight

Out of your mind, like a stuffed animal

Left on the side of the road

Battered

Lonely

Damaged…only

Somewhere out there is a child who mourns

Its loss, helplessly pleading with the parents to 

save it, before the unthinkable happens. 

Or did it already happen?  

Lifeless cloth shell swollen with cotton

has more value, than I  to you.

 I can relate

I have fonder memories of my own toys.

Of course they were in my life more often

I protected them with every ounce of my soul

I hugged when they were sad 

I kept them company when they were alone.

Unconditional love, whatever that is

And no one ever had to ask them why they didn’t have a father?

Or “Why doesn’t he love you?

Or what did you do to make him leave?

But I’m the bastard.

Packsaddle son swaddled in rags

and left out for the Monday night trash.

That’s what you did to me.

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4

Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae.


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Laughs, And Comic-Con
• 3:59 Setting Up Matt’s Family Backstory
• 7:35 The Classroom File And The Fallout
• 12:20 Silence, Stigma, And Not Talking
• 16:27 Identity, Adoption Echoes, And Belonging
• 20:46 Repetition Compulsion In Relationships
• 23:40 Turning Forty And Choosing To Search
• 27:10 Cold-Calling Brothers And DNA Twists
• 31:02 Meeting Dad And Setting Boundaries
• 34:20 New Family Roles And Old Wounds
• 38:03 Triggers, Grief, And Choosing Grace
• 42:00 Nature, Nurture, And Familiar Faces
• 45:20 Reflections, Resources, And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:14

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_03: 0:28

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of United States of PTSD. I am so excited today to have a returning co-host. My friend Wendy has agreed to come back to do an episode today. So welcome back, Wendy. It's so good to see you.

SPEAKER_00: 0:45

Oh my gosh, it is so amazing to be here. Thank you so much for uh asking me on.

SPEAKER_03: 0:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 0:52

Hope everyone's well.

SPEAKER_03: 0:54

And I have to tell you something really funny. I didn't want to tell you this to re recording because I want to get a kick out of it. So I was cleaning up the other day and I found this Christmas present that says to Wendy. And I don't even remember what it is. So at some point, I love that so much. At some point I have to drop it off because it just says to Wendy. I know it's to you, but I have no idea what it is. Not a clue.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18

Awesome. Because it feels like a year or I'm sure I have a box for you hanging around somewhere, but life has been chaos. So tell me as as it usually is. Um yeah, so goodness only knows where it actually lives now.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33

You're right. Uh the other thing that I wanted to just kind of say really quickly, and then we'll get into the episode. And um the last episode you and I did together was about Comic-Con. And funny, it was just this past weekend. So I went and I sent you the pictures of it. And I just want to give a shout out to some of the celebrities that I met that were super nice. I always like when they're kind and down to earth. And I think you know, you see like how much of humans they are. So Deborah Ann Walls Walls, you know her. She was in true blood. Um, she's actually a gamer. She was like the sweetest person ever, I have to tell you. Super kind, super genuine, super nice. And uh the two Posey brothers from Teen Wolf, also incredibly nice. And then there was one guy, I can't remember his name. I'm actually gonna Google it really quickly. He was a Star Wars Star Wars person. Um let me look him up really quickly. And it was a really funny story. It just happened, um, Iman Espondi. Does that sound familiar?

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

No name sounds familiar in the world. I don't know. I own children's names.

SPEAKER_03: 2:37

So I don't know him. He played, because again, I don't watch Star Wars.

SPEAKER_00: 2:41

Um I know it's like the only flaw you have.

SPEAKER_03: 2:45

Uh Shaka, I think it was. But we were waiting to meet Deborah in line. And actually, the funny story, the the person I was with, she is she's a lesbian, and she looked over and she said, Who's that hot guy over there? So we look over and we're like, damn, he is hot. No idea who he is, no, like has no line. So um, I mean, there were people coming, but and he was spending a lot of time talking to them. So we after we met Deborah, we went over there and we're like, Yeah, we have no idea who you are, but like we both thought you were really hot. So we wanted to come over and say hi. And he thought it was great. He's such a nice, super nice guy, and actually autographed the the picture that said the hot guy next to Deborah.

SPEAKER_00: 3:22

Oh my god, that's a hysterical funny.

SPEAKER_03: 3:26

Love that it was a great. So I just wanted to tell you that because it was so reminiscent of the last time I saw you, and just to kind of doubt out to like how nice they were. Um so the reason I for the listeners, the reason why I asked Wendy uh back today is Erica's on a little bit of a break, and I had received some requests to talk about my own history of trauma because we did your we did an episode called Wendy's story back in season one. And Erica has actually talked a lot about their trauma, but people were like, Well, we haven't heard anything about yours. So I figured we would do that today, keep it a little bit lighter because we've been doing some really heavy topics over the past year, um, incredibly heavy topics. So this will be a lighter topic because it has a great outcome.

SPEAKER_00: 4:16

Um I I love that the first time I'm back on, um, I'm asking you about your trauma.

SPEAKER_03: 4:24

Like I love it.

SPEAKER_00: 4:25

Thanks for saving that for me.

SPEAKER_03: 4:27

Love it. Um well, you're the I mean you're seriously like the best person that I could think to do it because one, we we know we're friends, we know each other really well, and you just have like such a light, fun personality that I thought. Oh and especially because it is kind of uh, I mean, I've worked through it, so it's certainly a better topic now. And we have some similarities in it, so we absolutely do. I definitely want you to jump in as well.

SPEAKER_00: 4:53

All right, thanks. Yes, I'll um try and make it all about me. Um so can you kind of set the scene? Um, how old were you um when you had an inkling um about your dad?

SPEAKER_03: 5:16

And great, so great question. I will give a little backstory for the listeners. So I grew up in the 70s and 80s, right? And uh obviously times are very different back then. Some of this is also pieces of information that I have put together, and it may not be factual because I don't know if I have all of the pieces, so I'm just basing on what I know.

SPEAKER_00: 5:42

Uh my mom had I'm gonna interrupt you already. Yeah, I think that that for me that's part of the trauma.

SPEAKER_03: 5:49

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 5:50

Not not having that clear picture.

SPEAKER_03: 5:54

Okay, sorry, go on. No, that and that that is what happens with trauma, and and also being so young, we don't conceptualize things the same way we do as adults. So my mom had me really young. She was 18 when she had me, and um, my dad was also 18, but my dad was not in the picture. So he um, much like many people out there, he just kind of disappeared, like he wasn't involved in my life at all. Um, now we I was born in Rhode Island, but my mom and my grandparents, my maternal grandparents, had moved to California shortly after I was born. And I'm not sure why. I mean, I can put the pieces together. I know my grandfather had a job out there, and I almost wonder if they were trying to start a different life because again, early 70s, single mom, Catholic family. I'm sure there was a lot of you know trauma and shame that went with that. So my mom met a guy um that she lived with when I was really young. And I know at some point she said that they had told me that he wasn't my biological father, but I don't know if I remembered it that way. Okay, because you know you're young. Yep. So um we lived with him, and I think they were in a again, I I don't think it was a super healthy relationship. And at some point we had moved back out to Rhode Island. My grand, my grandmother, my mom, and myself, but he didn't come. And my grandfather had also stayed out in California, and um the the way it was explained to me was that he didn't have um he couldn't find work out here. I think he worked for Raytheon, I can't remember. And uh so he had to stay in California to work, and you know, we were out here uh living with my family. So that that's the kind of backdrop to it. Now, when I found out officially that this guy was not my father, the way I found out was part of what was incredibly traumatic. And I know some of the people that we've talked to have had serious traumas, and this may not compare, but it makes me think of when we did the episode on trauma Olympics. Yep, trauma Olympics.

SPEAKER_02: 7:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 8:00

It's not always comparable. Trauma is trauma. It's trauma, it's trauma. But part of what I was experiencing in California was I had these really bad nosebleeds, to the point that I mean, I would go through like handkerchiefs of blood. And I remember being scared as a kid, which is probably where I got the blood phobia from. Yeah, gosh. My understanding was one of the reasons, one of the few reasons was we moved out to Rhode Island to get away from the dry heat. That also would be better for my health. And I know there were other reasons. But on really high pollen days, I would still get really bad nosebleeds. So when I was in sixth grade, so now I'm I'm probably 11, because I think you're 12 in sixth grade, but I was always a year younger. Um, I was in for recess, and the teacher's desk was drawer was open with all the files in it. And you know, being an 11-year-old nosy kid, I go and I pull my file out because why not? Yeah. I was bored. It's a book of you. Let me read it. Yep. So my memory's not super vivid on this, but either it said father unknown or it had my biological father's name on it. I can't remember which of the two it was because I remember it two different ways. But I saw it and immediately my whole world kind of came crashing down, right? Like, what is this? Who is this? What is going on? And I couldn't say anything because of how I found out. So if you picture, you know, an 11-year-old kid sitting by themselves in a classroom, realizing that their whole world just kind of fell apart in a split second with nothing they could do about it. I just started sobbing. I put it back and I was just like hysterical. And I remember the teacher and all the kids came back in class and I'm crying and freaking out. And the teacher was like, What's wrong? And of course, I'm just crying. And every time she asks me what's wrong, I just keep crying because I'm like, I can't. So what am I gonna say? Yeah. They called my grandparents because at the time my mom, you know, like I said, she was a single mom, so she worked full-time. And my grandparents came to pick me up at the school. This is my my mom's uh my mom's parents. And uh, I just remember getting in the car and screaming at the top of my lungs, who is my like who's my father? Like I wanted to know right then and there. And they both got death, like deathly quiet. Neither one of them said anything. Um, and I, of course, I'm again hysterical. We get to my grandparents' house, and I the I remember my grandfather calling my mother and just saying, like, I heard him say he knows you need to tell him. And I just like lost my mind. And of course, I'm waiting and waiting. My mom couldn't come home right away. I had to wait till she came out of work, and I'm just stewing on this.

SPEAKER_00: 10:43

Right. And not to mention when you're that little, like a minute is a much longer minute.

SPEAKER_03: 10:51

Oh, God, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 10:53

Than now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 10:54

It just takes forever. And um, you know, my mom came home and gave me a really brief version of it. It was kind of like, here's your dad, he didn't really want anything to do with you. You know, he was just kind of a jerk, blah, blah, blah. Um and she had called. Remember, I said my she was dating this guy at the time that was living in California. She she had called him. And I spoke to him on the phone. This is the last time I ever had a conversation with him. And I remember him saying, you know, I'm sorry you found out this way. Um, it doesn't change how I feel about you, like you're always going to be my son, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I still love you. Never heard from him again. That was the end. Yeah. So that and my mom had actually destroyed all the pictures of him in the house. So I don't know what happened. Obviously, there was something, there was something there that occurred that I'm not privy to and never was. But it just kind of rocked my world. Like, what do you do with that? So, not only did the guy who was my biological father not want anything to do with me, but then there was this guy who also was like, hey, I'm your dad, I care about you, and then poof, gone the very next day. That is incredibly traumatic for an 11-year-old. It'd be traumatic for anybody.

SPEAKER_00: 12:10

Yes, 100%. And I think um what I would love to unpack a little bit if if you're up for it, is not only was your world completely um etch a sketch is the only word I can like it's just like similarly, yes. Um but having hearing you talk about being in the classroom and not being able to talk about what you just found. Um did you feel that um did you feel that way with your mom with your grandparents? Like it was it a subject after this kind of initial like bombshell, was it a subject that you could bring up?

SPEAKER_03: 13:10

No, no. I mean, my grandparents certainly would have never talked about it because they, you know, they came from a very different generation. They were, you know, born in the early 1900s. That generation was very much about secrecy. Yeah, not talking about anything. Mental health certainly wasn't talked about back then. And and my mom, I don't think my mom was super young herself at the time. So, I mean, I think about how you know where I was when I was in like my late 20s and early 30s. So, I mean, I think she was doing the best that she could, but she grew up in a generation where you don't talk about it either. So, I mean, it was not uh there was there was not real encouragement to talk about it, and at the same time, it was clear that it made her uncomfortable. Yeah, and as a kid, as most kids do, you try to protect your parents, so you don't really go down that road and you kind of suffer in silence. I did have a cousin that I also remembered this, and and I will explain the story behind this later on because there is some some truth through it. It's not as horrible as it sounds, I guess. But I remember when I when I mentioned it to her, she was four years older than me. And uh she lived, we she actually lived next door, and she said, Oh, well, you know, she didn't want to tell you because your uh what'd you say, your dad's like actually your cousin or something. And I was like, What? And and of course, so I now I have that sitting in my head. Later on as an adult, what it what it turned out that happened was that uh this is so complicated, but like my mom's second cousin married my dad's like great aunt. So I mean there's like a marriage connection, but that you know, okay, yeah. I think my cousin probably interpreted that a different way. And I she could have also been trying to get a reaction out of me. So all of that was sitting in the back of the phone.

SPEAKER_00: 14:56

Just so the listeners know, like I can attest that Matt does not have like an extra leg or uh the third eye showing.

SPEAKER_03: 15:06

Um so oh no, you just you just can't see it, right? Like it's like hidden.

SPEAKER_00: 15:11

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03: 15:13

You know, and then you if you add in the fact that I was also struggling with my sexual identity, you know, right around like 12 or 13, and all of that stuff is going on as well. And again, in the 80s, it certainly was not as talked about or as accepted as it is today. So there was a lot of trauma that happened there, and it impacted my relationships with men going forward because I often would see them as it was like a love-hate relationship. Like I just hated them, but at the same time, I was attracted to them because of the trauma I grew up with. Like every man in my life, with the exception of my grandfather, was really not great. I mean, they were just kind of absent or you know, not emotionally available or whatever. And then by the time my mom married my current stepfather, who, you know, I love my stepfather now, I was already at like 14. So developmentally, all of that damage had already been done.

SPEAKER_02: 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:12

And, you know, I wouldn't, I mean, I wouldn't pick a better stepfather. I mean, he's great. All of that stuff certainly did impact how I had relationships moving forward. I mean, they were really just not healthy. So that that's kind of where the trauma came from and how it impacted me. Now, I could tell the story of where it ended up going and how that happened, but I I didn't know Wendy if you wanted to add to any of that, because I know you've had your own family stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 16:41

Yeah. Um I've got a lot of trauma to choose from. Um I know, I'm sure everyone does. Um so for me, um growing up, I can't remember a time when I didn't know that I was adopted. Um and at the time that, and Matt and I are about the same age, so we grew up in that same um Gen X and proud of it. So I I think there was definitely um growing up with with knowing it it was in a sense othering. Um and I can clearly remember um gosh, I was maybe six or seven. Older than that. I was probably like eight or nine. Um excellent memory. Um and my my brother, who was three years younger than me, um said something like, Well, you're adopted, and he doesn't know what that means. Like, I don't know what that means at that point. Um and I remember how angry my mom got like just I had not seen her that angry, like and like yelling, sure. But like kind of the low growl of like you apologize to your sister, like um, and that's when I learned, like, oh, oh, this is not a good thing. Um, and although it was sort of out in the open, it was absolutely something that I did not feel like I could talk about.

SPEAKER_03: 18:57

And culturally speaking, for um younger people who are listening, when we were growing up, that was when people were throwing around, oh, you're adopted. It was thrown as an insult. Yeah. It wasn't anything that was uh as acceptable as it is now. I mean, I think people encourage people to adopt kids now, but when we were growing up, it was a stigma.

SPEAKER_00: 19:18

Yeah. And I mean, I can certainly remember I think being in like my freshman year of high school and hearing that someone else was adopted and they were like proud of it. And I was like, wow, like what is that like? Like you're a different species. I don't understand how that it how it could be positive. Um and uh when I was adopted, uh apparently the person who uh told that kind of just counseled my parents um about how to talk about it and when to talk about it, they said, you know, like have an anniversary of like like the human um version of a getcha day. So um it was always celebrated. Um and I get like a little present, and I mean y'all I'm old and my mom up until like five or ten years ago, I got a card, I got a present, like it was a thing. Um I would love to hear how with carrying all of that you're 14, you finally have somebody in your life as a father figure who turns out to be great, but I can't imagine you had the tools to create a relationship with him. Like how how how do you start to work through this and to to work through this thing that you've been carrying?

SPEAKER_03: 21:17

That's a for years. That's a great question. And again, this has nothing to do with him, because like I said, he could do anything he could have done differently or better than he did. At that point, I think the damage had already been done. And I think what needed to undo the damage wasn't available at the time. So something that I engaged in, and this is really common for people who have trauma. So if you're if you're listening, this is part of what happens in PTSD, is there's something called repetition compulsion where we are um we unconsciously reenact situations and scenarios over and over again until we gain mastery of them. All of my relationships from that point on until I was 40, and I'll get to what happened when I was 40, had the same dynamic where I would find men who were either emotionally unavailable or um, you know, just really these kind of toxic relationships, and then I would cling to them because that's all, you know, it was something, right? It was better than nothing. And I was looking for healing in that, but there was no healing in that because I was obviously just repeating the same patterns. Now it I struggled for years with this, and I was in therapy for 15 years, and that was one of the things that we spoke about. And interestingly enough, what happened when I was 40 changed my life, and the pattern ended almost immediately. And that's what happens when you get to a point where you where you gain mastery, like you don't repeat it anymore. What happened was um what I did know about my dad when I grew up was that my dad had some sort of weird kidney issue that happened. That's all I knew. I didn't know anything else about his history, just that he had some weird kidney issue. And then I was tested for it when I was born and I didn't have it. Right around the time I was 40, I had this weird medical issue that came up, and I still the doctors could never figure out what it was, but it prompted me to think, I don't know anything about my medical background. So, like, this is kind of concerning, especially now that I'm 40. And for the first time, I had this push to actually meet him and like find him. I had tossed around the idea a couple of years before, and I had I found a phone number, I called it, and then I was busy, so I never called back and kind of gave up on it. And I went back and forth with this like I hate him, I don't want anything to know about him, and then I want to know about him. And I actually wrote a poem called I'm a bastard, and I actually read it at a poetry reading one time, which was the first time I've ever, and the last time I've ever done that. Um, I was really cathartic, I have to say.

SPEAKER_02: 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:57

Oh, it sounded so I decided that I was gonna do this. So I had a friend who um, I'm not gonna say where, because I don't want to want her to get in trouble, but part of what she did was research. That's part of what her job was. So I gave her what information I had, and she tracked down him, she tracked down two of my brothers, and she tracked down their phone numbers and their wives' names and all that stuff. So now I find out I have brothers, and actually how that played out was, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we had this weird kind of family connection. So I had gone to a wake, and one of my relatives had said to me, Oh, you look a lot like your dad, you have the same smile as your dad. And that kind of brought more awareness to it. And then she said something about my brothers, and I'm like, wait, I have brothers? Like, that's a whole nother thing, right? Because I grew up as an only child. So now that I thought I had brothers, that was even more of a push because you know, I was like, I want to meet them, and they have nothing to do with it. Like they're they're not, yeah, they have no oneness in this whatsoever. So now I have more motivation to meet them. So the scariest thing I've ever done in my entire life to date is cold calling my brothers. I I called both of the phone numbers I had and I got generic voicemails. It didn't even say like, hi, this is so-and-so. It just said you've reached this number, please leave a message. And leaving messages on both their voice messages that said, Hi, this is my name. I think I'm your brother. Can you give me a call? Scariest freaking thing I've ever done in my entire life. Now, because you grew up with me, you know where some of this goes. And the story is actually kind of wild. So, for those of you that are out there listening, it gets like if you think this is wild, wait, wait till we get further in the story.

SPEAKER_00: 25:43

So the popcorn going, people.

SPEAKER_03: 25:45

Like, yeah, I mean, this is like this is like uh some Jerry Springer stuff, but but actually not really, because there's not drama involved. It wouldn't be Jerry Springer, it'd be more like, I don't know, like uh what's another talk show where it's Oprah. I get well, I can't see, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00: 26:01

I mean, I can't see it's Oprah, but no one gets a car, but this would have been right.

SPEAKER_03: 26:05

Because it because it wasn't actually there wasn't a lot of drama. It was actually really great, but it was just the weirdness of it, right? So um one of my brothers called me back the next day, and um, this is where the story gets interesting because the two brothers I reached out to, he also didn't raise. So he had he had married their mother, but then he had left shortly after they were both born. So they actually didn't know him either. And they had just met him six months prior. So six months prior, they had had this kind of similar, let's go meet him, let's go find out about him. And they met him and they, you know, started obviously um having more, like having a relationship with him, which then led me to find out that I had three more brothers that he did actually raise, that he, you know, he was um with their mother. So the part that it gets weirder with is that the two brothers that I just previously.

SPEAKER_00: 27:08

That was that is whack-a-doodle. That is like a hallmark movie in the making. Um uh, but let's hold off until we hear the end. Okay, go.

SPEAKER_03: 27:18

Yes, because because you know there's more to this, right? So the the two that he also didn't raise that that he had reached out to them, um that they had reached out to him. I mean, it turns out they went to high school with us. So they went to high school with Wendy and I, and they went to junior high school with me because I had gone to a different junior high school than Wendy, and they had actually gone to the same school. They moved, I think, the year before I did, to go to the the town that Wendy and I ended up going to high school with. So I was around them all the time. And and one of my really good friends was their neighbor. And I was constantly at her house. But the but they had actually had a falling out. So when I was friends with this person, she was no longer friends with them, but they lived next door. So I was constantly at her house, and then they worked at the um, it's no longer there anymore, but they worked at the House of Pizza that was right on Diamond Hill Road.

SPEAKER_02: 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 28:13

And I used to go there all the time, right? So here I am having all of these interactions with them. Don't know who the hell they are, right? Um, which is like wild.

SPEAKER_00: 28:25

So I have um I have a a a question. Um I have many questions, but here's the one. Ask away now. Um, so I remember um my mind spinning starting in middle school. Um because that's when I thought, you know, love happened. Of course. Um we all do.

SPEAKER_02: 28:51

We all do.

SPEAKER_00: 28:52

Um so I remember being certainly being able to work myself up, but um definitely having that thought of like what if I date someone I'm related to. Oh my god. Like, yeah, did you have that yet?

SPEAKER_03: 29:13

Yes. Oh, well, you know, it so it was a two so to answer your question, I want to just go back a little bit because it was a two-fold thing, right? So not only was it terrifying reaching out to them because they could have been like, hey, we want nothing to do with you. Like either of my brothers could have said that. And I hadn't talked to my dad yet, and I hadn't talked to the other three, but either one of them could have said, Hey, we want nothing to do with you. But then I also had to come out to them, and I have to tell you, I mean, you know, you've known me. I've been out since I was 16, 17. At that point in my life, I didn't even think about it. I just assumed everybody knew, and I it's not, it just became part of my identity like anything else. And I never had to worry about it. All of a sudden, it was like I was back in high school, and I was like, oh my God, I have to come out to these people so they can reject me for this and they can reject me for that. Right. Um, I remember. I remember jokingly saying to one of them, I'm glad you're all straight, and that I didn't end up accidentally sleeping with any of you. So no, I totally, I totally get what you're saying. Because I mean that could happen. There's there's a thing called DNA attraction where people who have this actually shows up in best friends too, where people's best friends have a um, it's not like 20% or anything, but they have a a a higher percentage match of DNA than you would with a stranger because there's something about the DNA that's attracted to each other. So I mean that I learned that when I was going through all this stuff. Um, and so yeah, I mean that happens when you yeah that happens, but yeah, that went through my mind.

SPEAKER_00: 30:40

That totally went through my mind. Amazing. Amazing. And you hearing you talk about that actually um brings up like spoiler alert, um I ended up talking to my bio mom. And that doesn't mean that she is like toxic, like I just mean biological mom. Yeah, um uh when I was first talking to her and filling her in on me and um my kids and all of that, I remember feeling like the the red just crawl up my neck and to my face and being like, oh my god, like I I this is like the report card moment. Like this is not only have you rejected me already, but now I'm giving you like all of these reasons to reject me again. And it was horrifying.

SPEAKER_03: 31:52

So yeah, it's super vulnerable. It's it's a really scary time because you just don't. I mean, I guess if you think about it, you're not like you or I wouldn't really be losing anything because we didn't really have anything to begin with, but it doesn't mean that the the fear of losing it is not valid. I mean, it it is, it's incredibly valid, right? So like we have this fear, and um, you know, I was I was happy that both of them were really receptive, and they told me about what our dad was like, and I had already reached out to my dad at this point, and he didn't respond. Um, and I found the three brothers that he did raise on Facebook, so I messaged two of them and was like, Hey, uh what's going on? And um, you know, they were also super great. And, you know, my dad called me shortly after that. It was probably again one of the most awkward conversations I've ever had. Like ever. I remember one of the first questions he asked me was like, How tall are you? And I was like, Who the fuck cares how tall I am? Like, that's what you meant to have, you know what I mean? Like I was so um, but I get but you know, like now I get it because I've had years to process it. And in that moment, it was just like lots of rage and anger. And I'm a big, you know, as a therapist, and I'm I'm a big fan of getting out your emotions and not containing them because when you get them out, they heal. So I certainly didn't hold back. I I let him know what I was thinking. Um he was super receptive. And I have to tell you, one of the when we met, uh I had almost instant respect for him over all the anger when we met, and he said, You can ask me anything you want, you can yell at me. He's like, You can you can say anything. He goes, but I the the one thing I will not answer is anything about your mother. He's like, I won't answer any questions about your mother. I'm not gonna comment about your mother. If you have any questions about her, go ask her. And I have to say a lot of respect for that because he could have trashed her, he could have done anything, but he held that boundary and was like, you know, no, I will I'll only answer these questions. And I certainly did confront him about a couple of things, and I I do think he owned it. And you know, then I met my other brothers that you know, through that he he raised, and then now I have great relationships with all of them, and I really love my stepmother, and you know, um couldn't ask for a better stepmother either. But you know, now here we are 11 years later, and I feel like I should say I feel content that it's almost like we it sometimes it feels like we grew up together because of how close the relationship is. But there's times that I get really angry because I think about we didn't, right? Yeah, because all those years that we could have grown up and had these like great memories and great relationships, and but I don't get stuck on that. And I think once I met him, once I met my brothers, and once I was accepted by them, my patterns of my relationships changed almost instantly. I got out of a negative relationship very shortly afterwards, and then I never got into another one. Like all of the relationships I've had, um, I've certainly approached differently.

SPEAKER_02: 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 35:13

Now I don't tolerate any of the BS that I used to tolerate before. And if it doesn't make me happy, I'm out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:22

So it it's which is no, uh you you say that um with uh uh a little bit uh flippantly. Is that even a word? Yeah, no, you're right. I don't know. You're right, I don't know. Um but um let's pretend it is. Um, but that's huge.

SPEAKER_02: 35:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:45

Like what an extraordinary way to to look at this trauma and and how yes, how it has affected your life and how it has affected your relationships. But I love that you recognize the the huge healing that you've done and how it's affected the rest of your life. That is extraordinary.

SPEAKER_03: 36:25

And you know what I also I want to add to, because I think this is important. I did not recognize this until I had been in it for a little while. Because when it happens, when it first happened, the situation obviously is all about me, right? Because it's this incredibly traumatic thing. And the only thing I'm thinking of is how it impacts me. But as time goes on, I start to think about okay, how does it impact other people? Now, if anybody's had a similar experience, there was a part of me that felt like I was betraying my stepfather for now reaching out to my biological father. And I actually think my stepfather felt that, even though, like I said, I couldn't have asked for a better stepfather, and he did raise me, and I give him lots of credit. It's not one shouldn't detract from the other, but it but it feels that way to me, and I think sometimes it feels that way to him. I don't even talk about him around my my stepfather at all. Yeah, and then of course, there's there's the stuff with my mom because I think sometimes it feels like I betrayed my mom. Now, my mom has my mom is a very proud woman and she's worked really hard her whole life. And I remember growing up, she had one of the things that she had made it very clear was that she didn't want any money from him, she didn't want child support, she didn't want anything because she didn't want to feel like she owed him. And then when I met him, one of the things she said was ask him for all the child support he owes you. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, hold on. Hold on, hold on. Like, you didn't want it, and now you want me to go, like, no, I'm all set. Thanks. Um, but I, you know, I think that that's part of her own trauma. Like it came out of, you know, like your you know, turning your back around, but I'm not. I mean, you can have two different things. And then the other part was so I went from being an only child to now having being the oldest of five brothers. And now I find out uh there's also possibly more out there. That's a whole nother story. I'm not gonna get into that.

SPEAKER_00: 38:21

Um, so that's another bit of trauma.

SPEAKER_03: 38:24

So I might be the oldest of like, I don't know, a football team. I don't know. Uh, but but you know, that changes that that changes my perception because now I go from again an only child to an older, to the oldest child. And then I think about the two sets of brothers, how in one dynamic the oldest child there is now not the oldest. Yeah. And the youngest isn't the youngest. And then in the other family, the oldest again is not the oldest anymore. Right. So the only one that stays consistent is the youngest of all is always the youngest, right? And I'm always the oldest.

SPEAKER_00: 38:59

But in theory that we know about.

SPEAKER_01: 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:02

But sure, but everybody in between, their roles have changed and their identities have changed. So it I think it impacts everybody. It impacts them, it impacts me. I'm certain, I'm certainly sure it impacted my stepmother when she found out about there being other kids out there.

SPEAKER_02: 39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:17

You know, and it and it impacted my brothers because they grew up thinking that they didn't have any brothers. So I mean, it certainly did impact everybody. But I do think the the net result was really positive. I think we all have pretty good relationships with each other. I'm incredibly grateful that they're in my lives. It and it did, it shifted the way I had relationships because now I see what healthy male relationships look like.

SPEAKER_00: 39:43

I love that. I I just and I've been along for the ride a little bit for for pieces of this. Um and I just draw so much strength and grace for myself watching how you process all of these things, and they're huge, and it comes from such and I hope this phrasing is okay, like in an ugly place, like this horrible trauma that you've been able to not push aside and really examine and that you're so healthy makes me mad. I wouldn't give that far.

SPEAKER_03: 40:56

But but certainly I think, yes. I mean, I do have one of my brothers who also had reached out to him, um refuses to use the word dad, won't call him dad, yeah, say it at all. And sometimes I think goes out of his way to I don't want to say punish him, but like make him do more work. And you know, the way I look at it is that I could do the same thing. I could be really angry and say, listen, you stole like all this time from my life. I could, I could say that. I mean, one thing that did pop up, actually, I'll I'll talk about a trauma that had happened that was the first time I got really triggered was a couple of Christmases ago. I was at my my dad and my stepmother's house, and my stepmother was showing videos. Oh no, it wasn't Christmas. I'm sorry, I think it was my dad's birthday, and we're showing pictures of my dad throughout the years.

SPEAKER_02: 41:49

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 41:49

And within those pictures were memories of my brothers going to like Disney and my brothers like taking vacations and like all these pictures of it. And I I like lost it. Like internally, I lost it. And I remember saying to my sister-in-law, does she have any clue like right now, like who she's showing this to? Um, and my sister-in-law was just like, you know, you know it's not on purpose. And I'm like, I know. And I I was really trying to internalize that, but it got to the point where I had to leave. I was like, I can't watch one more second of this. Like, I need to go. Because again, growing up with a with a single mom for the most part, I mean, we were poor. So I mean, we didn't really do a lot of stuff. And you know, my mom did what she what what she could do. So we would take vacations to like New Hampshire and stuff. But seeing videos of and pictures of my brothers going to Disney as kids and like taking trips to like Aruba and all these places, and I was just like, nope, gotta go.

SPEAKER_02: 42:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 42:47

Because it it really hit me and I cried all the way home, you know. Um, but but those moments are few and far between. So I mean, I could focus on that and I could obsess over that. However, what's that gonna do for me in the long term? I mean, all that's gonna do is it's gonna, it's gonna prevent me from having a relationship with that with my dad while he's alive.

SPEAKER_00: 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 43:10

You know, and my brothers, or like while I'm alive, right? So I mean I could die tomorrow, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 43:15

But uh no.

SPEAKER_03: 43:16

Well, yeah, I know. I'm not so I'm not like I I purposely choose not to live in a place of anger because it's just not productive. I think 11 years down the road, we've they've certainly done enough to show me that they care. You know what I mean? Like, and yeah, it's uh yeah, I mean, so that's but that's my trauma. That's that well, that's one of my biggest traumas. I have multiple traumas, but that that to me was the the defining like that defined who I was out of anything and everything that happened in my life. That was the biggest defining piece of my identity.

SPEAKER_00: 43:55

I love that it has such a warm ending, like not ending, but like just that I don't know, I just keep picturing um this like withered plant um just green and gorgeous suddenly. So thank you for being so open and honest. Um and I know that I've heard this story more than once, and truly I my heart heals a little bit every time I hear it. Oh glad you are an extraordinary person, and I am super lucky. Oh, thank you, Mandy.

SPEAKER_03: 44:57

I feel that way about you too.

SPEAKER_00: 45:00

And if anyone and if anyone asks me that outside of this podcast, I will deny, deny, deny. Oh, thank you. Um I I think we are living in a different time now. So hopefully there are different experiences. But I know that a lot of people are going to connect with this and and really um start their own healing. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 45:36

You know, an interesting side note to talk about nature and nurture, right? So, again, as as I said, he wasn't around. And one of the brothers married this a woman who has the same name as my stepmother, and he has the same laugh, the same mannerisms, the same everything. Oh my god, it's kind of wild. And they didn't, like I said, they didn't grow up together. And I know when I, the one that I went to high school with, I remember when I met him in uh at the time it was Jackie's Galaxy. I met him in the parking lot, and I remember, and again, we went to high school with him. You know, you knew him. Like I knew of him, and I looked over at him and I'm like, how did I not know that we were related? Because we look so similar, but it it just never dawned on me, you know. Why would it? You know, why would it go in through high school? And uh yeah, it's just it's it's wild.

SPEAKER_00: 46:27

Yeah, and it in that kind of realm, I think meeting, and this is another conversation, but meeting my bio mom, uh my first thought wasn't like, oh my gosh, like somebody who looks like me. It was so now I know how I look when I'm gonna when I'm gonna get older. Like this sucks.

SPEAKER_01: 46:56

Like I can't delude myself into thinking that I'm gonna be uh, I don't know, gorgeous.

SPEAKER_03: 47:06

Oh come on, you're you're gorgeous now. What are you talking about? Bless. So thank you, Wendy. Thank you so much for being willing to come back and do this.

SPEAKER_00: 47:18

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_03: 47:19

I would love to have you come back any other time that you want to.

SPEAKER_00: 47:22

Oh, yes. I um I'm in a much better place now.

SPEAKER_03: 47:27

That's great. If and for the listeners out there, so if you're struggling with something like this, or if you've experienced something like this and you want to talk about it, or if there are things that you are curious about asking me, or if you want some suggestions or just feedback or thoughts, you can certainly email me um mat at united states at ptsd.com, and I certainly will get back to you. So thank you again, Wendy. I appreciate it. Thank you for all the listeners for coming along with that wild journey with me. Hope you learned something about it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 48:00

All right, thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_03: 48:24

This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.