S:4 E: 3 Gaslighting and Politics

Gaslighting is more than just someone “lying.” It’s the slow, repeated pressure that makes you question your memory, minimize your needs, and hand over your trust in your own judgment. Erika and I explore what this looks like at a deeper level and how it can create PTSD in us.  This extends further when political rhetoric and gaslighting become synonymous.  We talked about how capitalism thrives on keeping us divided and powerless.  We need to work together to take back both our power and our sanity.   

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Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae. 


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.  


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com 

Transcript

Disclaimers And Welcome

SPEAKER_03 0:14

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the United States at PTSD. Hello, Erica.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Hello. How are you, man?

SPEAKER_00 0:36

I'm okay. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Taking deep breaths every day. And trying to sing sing silly songs when I can.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

What's the silliest song you sing?

Why Gaslighting Feels Everywhere

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Oh gosh. It's always spontaneous at the moment. Mostly it's a narrative narration of something like silly that because we all have these funny things that happen to us regularly. Think about being human. So every now and then it's uh something that's happening that's like relatively awkward. I'll sing about it. And sometimes it happens at work. And I'm very lucky to work with people who delight in that and work in a field where I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

That's awesome. That's great. I love it. So we're going to talk about gaslighting today. I know I I we did a um, I believe we did an episode about this in season two, if I remember correctly. But we're gonna do it again because Eric and I were talking before we started to record. And Erica had talked about keeping it thematic. And there is so much political gaslighting going on right now in the country, and how that relates to PTSD is that when we well, actually, let's go back to what gaslighting is. So gaslighting comes from a stage term, it is from a 1938 play, and I think it was later developed into a film, and the film was called Gaslight, and it was about a man who manipulated his wife into believing that she was crazy. By he would create a I might get this wrong because it's been a long time since I read it, but he would create a light in the backyard that he was intentionally doing, and the wife would report, oh, there's a light in the backyard, and he would look out there and see it and say, No, there's not. So he was creating a reality, but then denying its existence. And eventually this leads somebody to question their own reality, and it can certainly cause them to go insane. It can, it can cause all sorts of mental health issues. And that is something that can certainly lead to PTSD in people. So I think it's important just to obviously acknowledge what it is and the impact that it has in our day-to-day life.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

I'm doing some deep processing right now in the moment. Number one, thank you for I I did not know that there was actually a film, a film. Uh the second thought that I had was it's very interesting to me that it's the origins are in a story of misogyny.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

True.

The Story Behind The Term

SPEAKER_02 3:17

And I also think it is interesting that it's orange is a terminology because I'm sure that it's existed since before it became a formal term, right? Sure. Like it was just naming a behavior or human social behavior. I also think it's interesting that it's explicitly about a husband controlling a wife. And I also think that it hits a little with this political time in general. Although I do I got into a lot of discussions with uh one of my very, very close friends about how like uh identity politics and some of is also a tool in somewhat to distract from other things, or as far as like other core things. Sure. Um and the main motivation or like the main driver, you know, some could say is greed, right? For example, for some of the political, the the reasoning that is utilized to uh as far as political gaslighting today. Anyway, so that's where that's unfiltered where my brain was jumping around.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

That makes sense. Actually, when you talked about it based on misogyny, it also made me think of the short story, the yellow wallpaper. Do you ever read that? Because I I think it would be kind of similar, right? The woman who was locked in the bedroom and she she would start to see faces in the wallpaper. I think that would, I mean, obviously that's also based on misogyny, but I I mean technically it wouldn't be gaslighting because it would be a it would be a different thing, but it falls into the same category of control and what control does to the human psyche over time. So thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure there's a lot of other stories like that too.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

So when we when we talk about how so I'm curious as far as a the degree of severity of experience in gaslighting versus the repetition, like over and over, like can you explain a little bit more about the link between gaslighting and PTSD?

Repetition And The 5x5 Example

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, absolutely. Repetition, I'm actually glad you said that. So repetition is is critical. Without repetition, gaslighting wouldn't work. And I if I if I were to break it down into something that I think everybody could relate to, if I were to ask you, and I'm not a math person, but I think this is an easy one, if I were to ask you what five times five is, you would probably know it off the top of your head without having to figure it out. And you know that through repetition. So growing up in school or growing up with our education system, we had to learn our times table and we memorized it. And it's the basis for our math knowledge. Now, if tomorrow you somebody told you it's not 25, it's 26, you would instantly deny it because you know better. It's just one instance of somebody questioning that reality. But if you then went and talked to two other people, and those two other people also told you it was 26, and then more people started to tell you it was 26, at some point in time, you would believe it. You would say, okay, well, I guess I'm misremembering it because if everybody is telling me it's 26, like it's got to be 26. Even if you were able to count on your fingers, right? Even if you were able to be like, let me count it. One, two, three, right? You would still get to the point if it was repeated enough that even when you naturally got to 25, you would convince yourself that you somehow miscounted or you forgot a finger or you did something. And it wouldn't matter how many times you repeated it, because your brain would have been rewired to believe that now 26 is the correct answer, but it's through repetition. And that's a very important part of that.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Oh gosh, there's so many. My my brain is uh lighting up in all so what I what comes to mind in this, I think about imposter phenomena or like doubt.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Imposter syndrome, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah. And we're trying to we're trying to use it in VetMed as the context of the environment as well that contributes to it. So with the the imposter phenomena, how we structurally create and contribute to those faces of imposter syndrome within an individual. And um, and like propaganda, deliberately false news, you know, these type of deliberate manipulations that happen and and how like it seems like it's an interplay of those things.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah. Yeah. You can build on it too, it's cumulative. So once you start to go, so again, if we go back to that example, if you suddenly thought it was 26, then you would start questioning all of the other numbers in your memory, because it wouldn't make sense if it was 26. So you would actually have to start shifting the the entirety of the narrative in order to truly believe what's happening. And you're right, in terms of politics, and you could argue the entire culture of the country because it's a it's incredibly important to capitalism that we live in a world where we all hate ourselves. And, you know, when you talk about imposter syndrome, that's a great example of that. So I mean, I know of many, you know, and it's always the most skilled professionals, by the way. And it's like the most skilled students who have imposter syndrome. It's the ones that you're like, my God, you're freaking awesome. But they're the ones that think they're imposters, and it's usually the ones that have very, very few skill sets that think they're the greatest in the world. So that's an interesting dynamic, but I think that that's also created by these, by these, by the propaganda that we're given in different ways.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

I I think that that's so like confidence in how so I've I've been around certain situations where someone so very confidently says uh something that is inaccurate, and I sit there and I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's not right. Right. We all have these kinds of experiences, and what I what I intend to what I'm interested in talking about next is this concept of like the function or like the why of the gaslight, and then the intentional versus unintentional, because sometimes people are just speaking overly confident, right? It's not intentional. And then I guess, yeah. So let's start, let's start there.

From Self Doubt To PTSD Risk

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I could I think if I if I were to break it down into the different, I think, reasons, because obviously everybody does it for different reasons. There are some people who it's just, I don't think they have the greatest insight in the world. So it's certainly not something I think they're even aware of. And that might be people who are more uh prone to like say pathological liars. I mean, I knew somebody that was a pathological liar, and I don't think their uh reasoning for doing it was to hurt people. I think it was partly that they didn't remember what they said half the time. So the reason why they were gaslighting, so to speak, was because they just had a bad memory and they just couldn't keep up with the vast amount of lies they were doing. But then I think there's a very intentional type of gaslighting of like Trump. Like I think everything Trump does is very intentional. Um, a lot of the administration, it's very intentional. They know that if they lie and that they are consistent in their lies, and we've heard them say this if you if you tell somebody something over and over long enough, they're eventually going to believe it. That's intentional. People in abusive relationships, if you have somebody who falls in the role as an abuser, they are typically doing it consciously to control the person so that they don't lose any power. And usually that comes from a place of not feeling like they have any power to begin with. So it's it's greatly overcompensating, I think, sometimes. And that's not, there's many different ways to do it, right? So another couple of examples of gaslighting it is the what's called like uh countering and blocking. So that you see this a lot if you do couples work, where if I already say, Erica, I'm upset about you because of this, and then you would say back, oh, that's nothing. What about this? We're not even gonna talk about that when we talk about what you did over here, right? So, and it could be something completely unrelated, usually it is something completely unrelated, that is just a way to shift and block from what you're talking about and then countering it to get somewhere else. And if you keep doing that, the person starts to really question their reality is like maybe I'm the bad person. Maybe, maybe all the stuff that I'm seeing is really me. And I'm sure you've talked a lot about um uh what happens in terms of like racial discrimination in in communities, and there can certainly be racial gaslighting that happens where, and it's you know, obviously it's people who are generally not part of that demographic, where they'll say things like, Oh, please, that didn't happen to you. What are you talking about? Like, you're just making that up. Those things don't really happen. That's another example of gaslighting. So it happens on many different levels.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah. I so in general, like some of the things that I am hearing as far as the reasons why, both you know, with deliberate intention versus not, is um a form of manipulation, coercive control, right? Like that that is the output, right? Either by um shutting a discussion down, right, or avoiding accountability, um, and uh undermining a person, a cohort, et cetera, from their belief, right? And then what happens when you separate people from their understanding of their reality that they're advocating for, right? So they um they stop, you know, they stop pushing on a particular issue, right? They stop asking for accountability, they might um, you know, tolerate something that they normally wouldn't. Like, are there other things that you would say would be the output or consequence of gaslighting?

Intentional Vs Unintentional Gaslighting

SPEAKER_00 13:51

I think I think tolerating what they wouldn't normally tolerate is something I actually want to talk a little bit more about. And I'm gonna tell you why, because a common misconception that people make when they're looking at survivors of interpersonal violence or people who've gotten out of abusive relationships is this whole narrative of like, well, if they hit you one inch of sleeve, why did you why did you tolerate it? Because much like any type of gaslighting, it doesn't start off that way. If you went on a date with somebody for the very first time and you're at dinner, and the person just holds off and punches you in the face, the large majority of people are not going on a second date with that person. That's not gonna happen, but that's not how it works. So it works slowly and gradually and insidiously until it really breaks the person down. So oftentimes somebody I worked with one time who was in the political arena and actually talked about the amount of gaslighting he received while he was running. And he talked about what often happens is whatever you're like, say you're um anti-gun, and that's the platform you're running on. So your your platform is I want to um get rid of guns, that they will end up making it so that you have to take money from some sort of gun group in order to maintain your platform. So they they make they make you do the exact opposite of what your belief system is, and that that takes a while to get there. But the motivating factor is that the person in that that particular position also wants an outcome because they want to run. So there's a motivation on their end as well. Because technically it does take in relationships, anyway, not bigger systems, but in relationships, there has to be some sort of investment from both sides, right? So the the person who's on the other end of it, there's something that they want to, and the person who's gaslighting exploits that to get the power and control over that. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yes. And so I think there are a couple of things like I I am wondering whether how much um unintentional gaslighting happens in interpersonal relationships. Um more so just because people are evading accountability, right? Like because it it um feels or hurts like to um think that you hurt someone that you care about, right? Um so like let's say denial potentially being a motivator for gaslighting. Um and I'm thinking about also like repair, like how how does one, if if one recognizes or realizes that that that is a habit that they have started to do in an interpersonal relationship, what is the ways to stop, or what are the ways to repair, or what are the ways to recover from? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah, that's a great question, actually. Um, and not that's actually not a question I've heard very often. Seriously. I think if if anybody becomes aware of a behavior they want, even outside of gaslighting, that they don't want, they don't want to do anymore, the first thing is obviously having the realization that is, hey, I don't want to do this anymore. Um I would encourage somebody at that point, because it is a very learned behavior. It's not something that you can just snap your fingers and then it's gone. And that person would need a lot of support and guidance. So I would encourage them to get into counseling at that point if they really said, like, hey, I want to stop doing this. The other thing that works really well with changing behaviors is accountability. So telling people, if you know that that's what you're doing and you really want to change it, then you tell people and you say, Hey, hey, Erica, like I I sometimes I might be gaslighting because I I don't feel secure in what I'm doing. So if you see me doing that, please call it out, because then that draws attention to the behavior and it holds them accountable because then you can say, Matt, you told me to say this to you, right? Like this is what you're doing, you want to change that behavior. With with any type of behavior, you think about like dieting or if somebody wants to do change what they're um change any sort of behavior, is looking at patterns, and part of that is writing it down and saying, okay, here's where I'm more likely to do it. I'm most likely doing it in these particular circumstances. That would be another strategy that somebody could do. Or asking themselves what the I mean, ultimately, if somebody came into counseling, you would want to look at what's the reason they're doing it. Because that has to be addressed first. You know, if if you can help them fix that, like whatever that thing is, that is the reason that they're doing it or change that behavior, they're going to be less likely to gaslight in the future, in theory.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Uh do you think that if someone is doing that type of behavior in an intimate relationship, that uh versus like, you know, are there any studies to show like if someone is utilizing a strategy of gaslighting, they're more likely to use it in general, right? Like, or or will they use it across all relationships versus selective relationships? Is that something that anyone can't?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

I I mean, off the top of my head, I don't know if there's a study about that. I'm I'm sure there is, uh, or at least something related to it. I I think it largely depends, like I think on the circumstances. So, in what's common in abusive relationships, if you talk about intimate relationships, especially in the beginning, is part of gaslighting is getting the larger the people on the outside to like you so that it looks like when the person is the person who's complaining, if they're saying, Oh, this person's really abusive to me, that the people around them are saying, No, they're like really great. So on some level, there would be yeah, I guess that I guess it would be then. I mean, it's like any other coping skill. If you're using it in one area, you're going to be more likely to use it in another area. That would be my guess. So like for example, you're singing, right? So when you talked about singing silly songs, you probably do that in other places too, right? Yeah, I mean it's a healthy coping skill, but you you know, you do it in different places, right?

Common Tactics Like Countering

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, well, and you could also say the silliness, the humor, right? Like I utilize humor as a form of coping skill. Um okay, so the next thing that I said was around like repair. So you kind of mentioned like accountability as far as speaking to other people to be like, this is a behavior, or if you say like this is something like you know, um that I'm working on, um, versus like going to somebody where that has happened, right? And then, you know, the repair, the recovery, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Oh, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

So, how do you how let let's start with a thing that I perceive as potentially a little bit easier, which would be the recovering from gaslighting.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

The the person who was the victim of it or the person who was doing it.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Right. The person who experienced it. So I because I think you kind of already covered, like, you know, the person who commits it or is utilizing it as a as a a strategy that is unhealthy or um inappropriate in human to human interaction in an ethical way. Like that person is like you talked about trying to change or break those cycles, right? Um I think accountability or trying to create repair, I think there's a lot that would be situational dependent. So maybe we can get into that in a little bit. Sure. Uh but as far as when we are when we have experienced gaslighting or a lot of it, like the the ways to repair, or what kind of things that you might be at risk for in addition to, you know, PTSD.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Let me answer that part first because I'll forget if I don't, in terms of what people are more at risk for, is replicating it again if they don't work on it. I mean, and you are far more likely to then enter into another relationship or another situation where it plays out the same. There have been studies of putting somebody who has a history of abuse and putting somebody who's a victim in a in like the same area with like a large group of people and they will gravitate towards each other because of many different things, including nonverbal body language and you know communication skills, they gravitate towards each other. And if you haven't worked on it, you're going to be more likely to then enter into another relationship. So part of that healing process would be to actually kind of take a step back and say, okay, let me work on this. The other thing to remember is that everything is done through repetition, everything we do. And we when somebody gets to a point where they have been very victimized by somebody who's gaslit, that took a long time to get there. So repairing and healing takes just as much time. It's it's not something that you can just repair that quickly. And part of what you have to do is then really start working on confidence and reminding yourself about your own reality and that what you believe is true, and then giving yourself reasons, like proof that it's true. Right. So if somebody comes in and says something like, and this is more of a cognitive distortion, but it works the same way. So if somebody comes in and says, you know, I think I'm the biggest, this has actually happened before where somebody comes in with like a partner and they say, you know, I think I'm the worst person in the world, like nobody likes me. Um, you know, I I just I'm a loser, I can't accomplish anything. And then you point out, well, well, do you have any friends? Well, yeah, I have lots of friends. Tell me about your friends, and then they'll tell me about their friends, and I'll say, What do your friends do? And they'll tell me what their friends do. And let's just pretend in this case they have a couple of friends that are like a lawyer, like a doctor, a veterinarian, whatever. Um, and then I'll say, Okay, so if do you think your partner is stupid? And they'll say no. I'll be like, Okay, do you think your friends are stupid? I mean, they sound pretty educated, they all have like these degrees, right? Well, no, they're really smart. Okay. So if you think you're the biggest loser in the face of the earth and you think you're this biggest gumbag, then one of two things is true. Either they're all really stupid and you're a really great actor, or maybe you're wrong. Maybe you're a really good person, and maybe like you have all these great qualities because the proof is right there. And that's what you have to really focus on is that the the things around you, but you look at it and you say, like, okay, this is true. Like, people wouldn't be hanging out with me if this was, you know, if I was the biggest loser in the world, right? Um, or in work when we start to question the whole like imposter syndrome. Well, you know, if you were an imposter, would you have had all these years of experience working in all these cases? Would all these people have turned to you for, you know, of course not. Um, so it's you, it's it's about doing that, but you have to do it consistently.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

I think what does consistently mean?

How People Get Worn Down

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Like every day. Like all the time. I mean, I mean, think about it. If you have a if when people have negative messages, they have that negative message hundreds of times throughout the day. So if you think about somebody who has an eating disorder or body dysmorphia, every time they pass by a mirror, every time they turn on the TV, every time they, you know, they they run into somebody that they they are attracted to, the first thought in their mind is usually something like, I'm disgusting, I'm too fat, I'm this, I'm that. And that probably happens 10 to 50 times a day, right? So when I say consistently, I mean every, every time it comes up, like you have to, the person would have to challenge it. And and at first, you know, it's what it's what's called an introject. So an introject is when somebody gives you um a message, like when you're growing up, if your mother tells you that you're the most successful person in the world, at some point in time that voice now becomes your voice. So you have a message in your head. It works the same way with negative messages. Often it doesn't belong to us, though. So I'll tell people if somebody comes in and says, like, I think I'm the dumbest person in the world, well, where'd you get that message? Oh, that message came from my dad. Okay, well, that's your dad's luggage. Put it back in, put it back in his luggage, put it on a plane and send it to freaking Jamaica or something. Like, get it out of here.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah, that's um Yeah, I've I've had an interesting like so. I think that every every um probably every medical professional has a lot of self-doubt that comes up, or that as there's a certain stage here, sometimes you you completely uh shake it off. I think I'm like, you know, I'm like at the beginning of mid-career right now. So like I still have um things that I'm learning and things or I'm choosing to push myself further. And then it comes back as far as like, oh, like, do I have the capacity or capability to add on or to progress? And and when you say it every day, I'm like, okay, now I know I need to be working on this every day. Or that I can support, you know, the students or other people that I come across as far as when I hear someone saying that they're struggling with their confidence, they know that I will know now that we need to embrace our wins or remind ourselves of our wins every day.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

To add to that, this might help as well for you and for like other people who are listening. At the beginning of my career for the first uh maybe like 15 years, I worked particularly with pregnant postpartum women who had histories of addiction. Sometimes they had their children removed, or sometimes the threat was there to remove the children. And I found so obviously I saw a lot of people parenting, and I found the people who had the best parenting skills were always the ones who didn't believe they did, and they were always questioning it. And part of that is because wanting to be better is questioning and saying, like, am I doing this right? And I think that's true professionally too. When people are questioning themselves, did I do a good job? Should I have done this? Should I have done that? Now I'm not advocating for um people to go down a rabbit hole of anxiety either, right? But there's but that but there's certainly a level of integrity and responsibility that goes into that. Whereas if somebody once somebody gets to the point where they think they know everything and they think they're the best, they probably should quit their job because that's at a point where they start to actually make mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Right?

Changing The Pattern Through Accountability

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's very I think that's very prudent, very interesting. Like um, I you know, and I think there's probably other layers that we could get to into this around like um different neurotypes, right? How how that kind of shows up in different ways. But um I'm thinking now in this context of like the larger political uh narrative, right? Uh and I think that you also brought this up in regards to capitalism and marketing and consumption and this what does you feeling less grounded in your hold on or understanding of reality? Um, and what does that how does that benefit systems? Right now, you were talking earlier about the context of um like a smaller system. So things like maybe we we've been talking about like an interpersonal relationship or like a family unit, right? You can this can happen in uh institutions, right? Or but like absolutely within a workplace, right? And and the gaslighting in the workplace, what what kind of things happen with that versus political rhetoric and like the gaslighting of a populace?

SPEAKER_00 31:03

I can give I can give you a perfect example of gaslighting in an employment setting. Okay, and luckily the my supervisor was absolutely amazing. I really loved her and she was honest. So it wasn't gaslighting, but it was the whole point of it. So when I was up for a raise when I was working at the hospital, my supervisor came in and you know, you have the reviews and they do like the five-point system. Uh, uh, I believe like five was the highest or whatever. And if you get X amount of points, it determines your pay scale raise, like what you get for a raise and the cap. You know, there's a cap on it. So when I walked in there, she's very honestly said to me, She said, I'm gonna tell you this right now, before I even go over your review. They told us we're not allowed to give out these numbers. They told us that we have to give between here and here. She said, So I'm just telling you right now, I don't believe, you know, I believe you're much better than what I'm giving you in terms of ratings, but I can't give you higher because I was told I can't. Now, she wasn't, again, she wasn't gaslighting because she was being very honest, but she was, but I had been there, she was new, right? So, like I had been there for a couple of years at this point. And that was never said before. So, in terms of systemic gaslighting in a job, you're being told to work harder because if you work harder, you're gonna get this raise, but they're never going to give it to you because they don't want to. And that's a that's a great example of gaslighting in an institution, or when they say we don't have money to give our our people raises, then the CEO takes like a two million dollar raise that year. You know, that's another example of gaslighting.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

All right, and and we in the United States are living and have been living an example of, and actually it's probably been going on longer. Actually, it may be a key function and strategy of political rhetoric.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

I would absolutely agree with that. I, you know, I was telling you before I looked at some lies that Trump has told just this week alone, and how quickly the base just kind of shifts to it. Right. So I'm sure you heard this is the biggest one, how he claimed that it was it was the Iran that bombed their own school. Did you hear that? And of course, there's no evidence of that. All the evidence points to the complete that that's not true, but he still made that claim. And again, nothing to back it up whatsoever. And I, you the people who are far down that rabbit hole believe it because of gaslighting. They have been gaslit the whole time. And you see it in when you have the same people who are arguing that uh, you know, you should respect law enforcement. And if ice comes, you know, if ice comes and gets you, like you should just go with them and be peaceful because that's you know, you need to respect authority of the same people who did an insurrection and killed police officers and then said that they were scumbags. You know what I mean? Like to have that same belief on opposite sides of the spectrum is is a direct result of gaslighting and cognitive dissonance. And it just it just keeps it just keeps happening. And they all do it, like all the politicians do it.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Well, yes, because they're relying they're relying on a couple of things, in my opinion. Um, also like not a political scientist, so uh by like the technique that's being utilized so frequently or has been utilized by Trump for a very long time, the flooding the zone, right? As far as TP, flooding the zone with so much in that it takes time. So this is the reason why in some ways gaslighting can work, is it can take time and energy to verify your rel like or to cross-check things, right? And if someone isn't paying attention enough and they're just taking things at the word, right? It's I don't know. I mean, we just have a lot of narrative and a lot of showmanship, and this is also you know, like for example, like Elon Musk with some of his projects. You know, I heard recently that they he like shut down his AI team.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

No, I didn't I didn't hear that.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Yeah. I have to, I only saw one article on it. You know, I'm at the like, so I I also so I I have to I'm I have to look around a little bit. I'm waiting to see, but I think that he has uh adjusted a little bit at this point.

Recovery By Rebuilding Confidence

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Um I mean I know he's in the Epstein files a lot. Speaking of which, this is this is important too. I know we have some listeners who are out of the country and you and I I also know that the people who are out of the country probably get more accurate news about what's going on here than we do. So I I want to acknowledge that a lot of the news sources that I've been looking at are not in this country because we just I mean they're all they're all corrupt here, but it did one of the things I saw was that since the since we have I hate the term gone to war because I almost feel like we should just say like we are terrorizing people. I think that's a big there's a different word. I don't because it's just it's more insidious than war. But yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Carpet bombing people.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yeah, I would even say that's better. Since we started the carpet bombing routine or uh or the the Epstein war, as we will call it, interest in the Epstein files has gone down 95%. That's pretty concerning because of how horrible the Epstein files are and all of the people that are implicated, but they have certainly distracted the American people to get away from that. We can't even keep up with the crisis. Uh, do you have oil in Arizona, by the way, for like your heating, or do you have gas?

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Uh we we have a different relationship with heat. We have an inverse relationship with heat.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

That's true. You probably don't need it as much, but just like I needed I needed oil like uh about a week ago. And I'm like, oh God, I already I don't even want to look. So on Monday, because my oil company won't deliver unless I'm under a quarter of a tank, and I was a little above a quarter of a tank. And on Monday it was like 320, I think, per per gallon. And by Friday it was five dollars. And then I checked, uh, I think it was Sunday, or when did I check? I think it was the Sunday that week. It was 525. And I was like, I'm so glad I did get it because I ended up calling another oil company. It was like, can you just give me a hundred gallons to get me through the through the season? But we are certainly not going to be able to afford that in any place that relies on oil for much longer.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

I I think perhaps for me, what I observe as far as because I also feel like a little bit distance from the American political. So I grew up in a family in which there were lots of things. Politics on a certain level of geopolitical skill were talked about because this, you know, that happens when your family is has like displaced or experiences occupation. Like you there's more discussion about it and there's more long-term memory, and I think, and also a certain amount of distrust for the state, right? So I think in general it's been very interesting to observe Americans who were not did not realize how the political class explicitly understands and takes advantage of their short attention span, their narrow breadth of attention bandwidth. Um, although what we're experiencing is like absolutely beyond anything, right? So it's not um, and then and lastly, like ability to hold attention like over the length of time.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

It's it's interesting. Yeah. What I what I find really interesting about that is I for the longest time have believed that ADHD is was created and that it is not, and I'm gonna tell you why. So when I was younger, before we had cell phones, before we had all of the contraptions that we had now, I had no problem sitting down and like reading a book. I could sit down and there was one time I was sick and I went through like seven books in seven days. And now I can't concentrate like I used to be able to. I find if I'm reading a book, I'm also texting and watching TV at the same time and doing something else. And, you know, commercials and all of these very short things like TikTok and Instagram was designed, I think, to steal our attention span over like years. And I think that has caused people to have ADHD. I really do.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Yeah, I think that the attention, like, yes. So I think it's this really an interesting component to think about because we're we're actually circling back to this component where I said earlier about how it would be interesting to reflect on how different neurotypes or aspects of our brains impact susceptibility to gaslighting. And some of this is the ability to um cross-verify the ability to hold longer attention or or detail, right? And the fact that to recognize the fact that so many, like as far as consumption um based like drives media and all these things have been designed to make us more susceptible to gaslighting.

Workplace And Political Gaslighting

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Absolutely. I and I and then once you have a bunch of people that are so susceptible to being gaslit and are having a hard time concentrating and paying attention, you flood them with as much possible stimulus as you can, because then they can't function. They can't function in a in a way that's going to create any sort of changes because they're functioning on just surviving. Like, how do I, like, okay, how do I just get through the day when all I'm being bombarded by all these different things? That's by design. I'm convinced that's by design.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Okay. So what how other aspects of compatibility? So we are we we already talked a little bit about um affirming our ourselves. And I think that thinking about how to counter uh different types of gaslighting, right? From interpersonal to systemic to to like a or like a smaller scale system versus like larger scale, how to break those things, right? How to reclaim our ability. Well, so this is this is I'm struggling a little bit because like power, right? When you have your like I feel relatively powerless in the context of um our government making particular decisions around um carpet bombing populations um and recognize the fact that we have been in this position before. So I think a lot of people have talked about how we how do we in any individual circumstance combat gaslighting in a way that results in an outcome of change? That's the question that we're ending on in some ways. So and okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

I will try I will try my best to answer that one to end with too. Um that's a that's a tougher one. Exposure matters. One of the things that I have tried to do in terms of attention span is to I don't I don't watch anytime an ad comes up or commercial, I I don't even watch it. Um, I try to limit the amount of time that I'm looking at videos on TikTok and I'm trying to do more things like read more, right? So I'm trying to shift the patterns. And that, if we know something is gaslighting us and it's something that we can remove, we should remove it. If you think in terms of the beauty and the beauty market and how much that the messages that are sent to particularly women all the time is that you're you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too Destrute that, you know, you're never going to be happy. Buy all these products that are billion-dollar products that'll make you feel better about yourself. Is to not look at things like that, not watch, you know, take a break from media, don't buy magazines, don't feed into that stuff. That you can do, right? But in terms of governmental stuff, we can't always get away from that because if we do, if we ignore it, therefore we're actually not helping. But I mean, we but we do have to take breaks too. And I think the more we tell people, I mean, think about how people think about how many more people are now realizing what Israel is versus what they thought a year ago.

unknown 44:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Like I know a lot of people now because we've been talking about it, like people like you and I have been talking about it since it started. Well, not since the 40s, but I mean since this recent thing, right, since this recent thing started a couple of years ago. And now I see all of these people who are kind of where I am, where I was then now, right? But that's because of exposure. Like more people are talking about it. More APEC recipients are losing their seat. Jasmine Crockett lost her seat. And oh, what's that guy with the um the patch? He lost his seat too.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Uh oh.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Dave Crenshaw. Crenshaw, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Um, he lost his seat too, right? So I mean, I think it's working. I I don't think it's working as fast as we would like it to work, obviously. Um it's moving like a snail's pace. I but I mean, I think being being passionate obviously helps because when you're passionate about something, it's harder to break that in somebody. Um but at the same time, remind, you know, not becoming feral like some of the like some of the other people, right? And you know, getting there's a great book by Johan Harry called Lost Connections, and he talks about all of the things we've lost in humanity and why it's created so many mental health problems in people. And one of the things he talks about is we've lost the connection to nature. So just going back out in nature. Like I know um I hike a lot during the spring and summer and fall. And there's this one place I like to go to. It's a it's like a fairly riverish stream kind of thing, fairly big. And I'll walk out to a rock or and I'll sit on it and I'll just meditate in the sunlight in the middle of the water, like listening to the water go by. And I have to tell you, it's like it feels so amazing in those moments and powerful. So I think if we build ourselves up in ways like that, it's harder for somebody to gaslight us because we feel confident. Does that make sense?

Attention, Media, Nature, And Grounding

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Yeah, I think that um remaining confident in the vision that you have is important, right? So um, if it's in the context of an interpersonal relationship, if you stay grounded in the fact that we all deserve to be treated with care and respect, and that our feelings should matter in dialogue, and we should be in relationship with people who are going to work together with us to come to a uh a compromise or a resolution, right? That that is co-created, right? That's that's what relationship is, you know, co-creating things and deciding on things together. Um, or at least that's from my culture, right? So we have to be critical when dominance or control is is being exerted and question what the reason is for that. Um I'm not saying that you know, systems where decision making is collapsed or one person designed completely to one person is not at times, you know, appropriate, right? Doesn't mean we can't talk about it. So the other thing that I'm thinking about in the context of larger power, like what type of workplace or what type of society, right, do human beings deserve to live in? And when you talk about like being in nature and being part of nature, um, yeah, that really it's important to keep keep hopeful, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

This was a great, this was a great conversation, Erica. Um and I I hope the listeners think too, but you know, yeah, I hope you agree as well. I I think we're awesome. So this is an example of how you make sure that you are see creating a positive narrative in your head to I like I told you, my uh I every day my Alexa goes off at seven o'clock in the morning and it says you're fabulous. Well, I did unplug her, but up until up until that, right? So uh I just wanted to add something funny. I think you'll get a kick out of because last time we recorded, there was this blizzard that was coming in, right? So this time this time I'm recording, we're at a stormwatch for flooding.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

And I am in a position where I think we're supposed to get we're gonna we're supposed to have a day over of I think we're supposed to have a day at this like 106 in March? Yeah.

Closing And Copyright Reminder

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Wow. Oh, by the way, on the uh on the last episode, I did include a study to on the notes to pollen. Oh I looked it up so people can look at the notes if they want more information about that. So and thank you for talking about us. So so thank you, everybody, and thank you, Erica. And we'll thank you everybody. See everybody soon. We'll talk to everybody soon. This is just a reminder that no part of this podcast can be duplicated or copied without written consent from either myself or Wendy. Thank you again.