S 4 E: 4 Trauma and Disordered Eating

Ali shares her story of growing up with a parent who struggles with addiction and behaviors associated with it.  Ali candidly talks about how she learned to cope and how difficult it was for her to come to terms with some of her mother's behaviors.  We discuss the unique and powerful bond from child to mother and how we can compartmentalize to protect our own sanity.  Ali describes one of her coping skills as controlling food.  She shares her story of programs did not help as much as they could have.  Erika also discloses some of her own history with disordered eating.  

Thank everyone for listening.  Please forgive the lack of music as my hard drive crashed and I am re-buidling the format.  

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Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae. 


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.  


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com 

Transcript

Disclaimers And A Format Reset

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I have Erica here with me as always, the fantastic Erica. And I also have another former student of mine, Allie, who is going to be guest speaking today. Quick announcement: I accidentally deleted all of the episodes of the show from my hard drive, including the format. So the format and structure is going to be different on this episode. I don't know if the music is going to be included because I have to reformat everything. So if the music is not included, that is why. So I just wanted to put that out there. So welcome Allie. Welcome, Erica.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Hi, Allie. Hi, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Allie, you are a current social work in the master's program and in your MSW. Allie is an amazing student. And Allie, you are going to talk about what prompted you to get into the field of social work, correct? And how your personal experiences have shaped and informed your professional experience moving forward. So I'm just going to let you start, and then Eric and I will jump in and ask questions if that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

All right, great. Stage is yours.

Growing Up Around Addiction

SPEAKER_01 1:26

All right. Um, so I grew up with a mother who is mentally ill and has substance use issues. And that came more apparent to me when I was around the age of seven or eight, because we had to, we went through a court case largely based around the fact that she was in very intoxicated around us. Um, and at a young age, I was always so curious as to why. Like, why is my mom like this? Why can't she stop? Why can't you why are we not enough to get her to stop doing this? And that kind of really formed a lot of curiosity within myself. And then as I got older, she unfortunately kept getting worse. And by the time I was about 13, 14, the court had actually told us to go back to her house when we we first went to court when I was about seven or eight. And when we went back, as I said, things got progressively worse. And then when I was about 13 or 14, she started bringing men back to the house. And one day I went to school. I told my dad, and he said, You're never going back to that house again. Um so he called her, said that, you know, I'm taking the kids, and she had no argument. She was pretty, she was pretty low at that point. So there was really no fight with her for that, um, and no wanting to go back to court either to try to go against that. And then from there, like any teenage girl, I went from one house that had no rules to then a house that had a lot of rules and chores and things like that. And I did not do well with it. I definitely rebelled. I tried to go back to my mom's neighborhood as much as I could because I still had friends there and was going to school around there. And because of that, I was still very much around her. And I would go there and there would be a bunch of random people, and I just thought this is so cool. Like I'm hanging out with older people. Uh, little did I know a lot of them were, you know, also substance users or were in sex work or, you know, recently released from prison, which I actually wrote this in my personal statement, really helped me because I never I never felt any type of way. I never felt unsafe. Actually, in all honesty, they were the ones that were very protective of me. And when things were really bad with my mom, they would they were usually the ones that were trying to keep me from what was actually happening in front of my own eyes.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

These were these were friends or people that your mom was bringing in, or were they family members?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

They were people my mom was bringing in. My mom's house essentially turned into just a house for anyone. She let all walks of life stay with her. Um, and when I was about 15, is when she was getting more into sex work, and I was getting told by people, your mom's doing this, your mom's doing that. But I just never believed it. Or I would hear it, and to me, I was like, but it's my mom. You know, like that's all I kept thinking. I was like, it's my mom. Like, she's not gonna, you can tell me the worst story, and I'm not like no way.

Mental Illness And The Mother Bond

SPEAKER_03 5:08

To normalize that, the relationship we have with our moms is probably the most complicated relationship anybody can have. I think even more so than another, if you had a dad, a relationship with a father or a different parental role. There's just something about the bond between child and mother that is incredibly powerful. And I think even in the most, the most abusive places, if you remove a child, the child often wants to go back to the mother because that's the dynamic that that we have. And even as adults, we Erica and I were talking about this just personally a little while ago. We find ourselves making excuses for our moms often when they do things that maybe are not nice or border on abusive. So that's I think norm for like many, many, many people. If if I could go back a little bit and just ask you about, because you had said your mom had some mental health problems as well as addiction. What was the do you know what the mental health issue was that was happening?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

We never really knew exactly. Many people were like, she was bipolar, she was this. I personally believe um she had two miscarriages before my brother and I, and one was very far along, and I personally believe that did that is um what really affect her psyche naturally, but then it was the 90s or late 80s, so there wasn't much awareness or talk about it. So that's always been my thought that that's you know sprung on more within her life, but there was never a formal diagnosis, and if there was, we were never told what it what it actually is.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Um has your mom passed away?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

She has not. I have not spoken to her in over God, it might be like 13 years now. That's a long time. Yeah, so about that, yeah. And I've seen her. I saw her when I was about 26, so a little, I'm 34 now. But so I've I've we've seen each other, we just when it happens, we don't speak. So and neither my brother or sister speak to her as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

So one thing I wanna reflect on what I noticed that you were saying as far as this these facets of of life in the an open place, right, where people could be, and that there were people in that environment who were taking care of you or expressing intentions of care. And you know, this this component of how for you it allowed you to see like the human in the context of these other labels. And and I think that's really important to uplift as far as recognizing the fact that there are contexts of I don't know, like if we talk about like ethics or societal norms or what is considered um uh illicit activity versus um also the reasons behind it. Um, I really appreciate how you emphasize these these really human components that we all can recognize the fact that we are like people or human beings, and these other circumstances that arise are complicated.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Absolutely. And I think a lot of people see kids um and they want to protect them most of the time, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Um I'm glad you added most of the time, because if we look at our current government, we would know that that's not true.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I I know, I just I had to throw it in. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Oh yes. Um, yes, most of the time. And you know, I was also around some people that did not want to do that, but luckily I was very strong for that age, I think because of all the things I was around. And I was very, I very much took on the role of being a protector for my mom.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

So I are you the Ellie, are you the oldest? Because you had mentioned you have siblings. Are you the oldest and no?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

I'm the youngest.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

You're the youngest, and you took on the role as protective. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Well, my sister is very protective as well. And then my my brother, my brother was, I didn't realize at the time, very disassociated, and still to this day can't remember a lot of anything that happened. Um, so yes, I was the youngest, and when my sister moved out and then also went to college, I very much took over the role of okay, I'm gonna yell at my mom when she's drinking, and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. I will also say I watched teen shows where parents, like Degrassi and stuff, where parents were doing these things, and the kids would go and confront their parent and it would change their whole life, and then the parent got so much better. So I just had that thought that if I just keep doing this, she's gonna turn her whole life around. And I'm gonna be the one that saved her because I'm I'm her kid and she wants to do this for me. So I also had that mindset too, as a younger, as the youngest.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

It shows the impact of media and what we're led to believe. And I know you're going to talk more about disordered eating as as we go on, but that's also heavily influenced by social media, marketing, commercials, all of that stuff. I want to go back to what you're saying about how the people were protecting you. Having worked with people who have histories of addiction, that's rare, to be honest with you, where that where that happens. I mean, I can think of many clients I've worked with over the years who were sex trafficked by their parents when they were using, or were neglected by their parents when they were using. So, I mean, you you had that. I mean, you had said luckily, and I think there is a a part of that that is specific to your story, not common.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yes. And I I will say I think that's largely one my dad did not want to allow me at my mom's whatsoever. So when I did it, it was in private, and I was never spending the night there or doing things like that. So who knows, maybe those unfortunate things could happen. But I will credit my dad was very like, no, no, no. And if he found out I was, he was not happy with me. But I was a very, I started to become more rebellious more in my teen years because I also I had so much anger because I just didn't understand why this was happening to me and my mom. Um, but yes, the I am very lucky in the sense that I had people that would tell me not to stay there or go somewhere else. Um, or one woman I'm thinking of in particular, she was the one that tried to bring to light the fact that my mom was doing really bad things. That's when it started to cross more over into my life because I started to get older, boys in the neighborhood. I was like, oh, I have a crush on so and so. And then so and so was sleeping with my mom. So it was things like that that started to be like, oh, okay, this is this actually isn't right, but still didn't connect with me. I still was very much like, no, no way, no way. It's my mom, like you said, the connection. I was just like, there's no way what these people are saying is true.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Um yeah, so now you oh Erica, were you about to ask something?

Trauma Anger And Food Control

SPEAKER_02 13:45

I was just gonna say deep breath. Yeah. Um when uh if if this feels okay, um, I am gonna make a little shift because this to me sounds like a recipe for creating a space in which a different relationship with food and nourishment can develop. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

It was the at the time I didn't know that that was the only thing I felt like I had control over. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

That's kind of and it is my experience with it came as well. It was like the one thing that you can control.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

And it was around that time, I'd say like 18, when I started to become more aware of certain things, like 15 to 17, and then you know, I was out of high school, so I had more freedom too, and the things I could do, and not being around family or people that you know knew everything that was going on all the time. And like I said, the anger. The anger really fed in a lot into most of the things that I did.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Was the anger or do you think the anger was self-directed? Or was it were you because I know you were also trying to protect your mom, so were you conscious the anger was towards your mom, or was it internal?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Oh no, I was conscious it was towards her. Because I get very angry towards her because I was I couldn't click together that she couldn't get better for her kids. That was just something that I had a really hard time with and just was like, how if you can't do it for us, then what do you like what can you do it for? And she would, you know, choose men over us. I mean, my entire life. So I think it just started to build more and more as I got older, and just wishing I had that relationship with her that I so badly desired and would get snippets of every so often because I knew she was still in there somewhere, and sometimes that would come back up, which would then reignite the hope in me that I could get her to come back.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Thank you for sharing that, Allie. And I want to mention to the listeners that this is what Ali just said is super important because people often have the misconception that somebody who's using drugs or alcohol or somebody who has addictive behaviors can just stop if they care about their children. That's not the case. It's it is considered a disease, and you know, that would be like any other disease. It would be like saying to somebody, if you cared about your kids, you'd wish your diabetes away. It doesn't work like that. Another damaging thing that I've seen that people who are in recovery will do, or people who are due to recover, will often say to their kids, I'm staying sober for you, or you're the person that I'm that's keeping me sober. It's actually a really terrible thing to say to a child because what that implies is if the parent relapses that the child isn't good enough. Right. So, like if I say I'm staying sober for you and you're my child, and then I go out and get high, I'm basically saying you were not good enough to keep me sober. So both of those things are fallacies. The person can only stay sober if they want to stay sober. And they they have to do it for themselves. Like that is the only thing that things can get you there. So you can say, I'm starting because of my child, but if you don't shift that focus at some point in time to do it internally for yourself, you are going to relapse. And that's just the reality of it. So I want all the listeners to hear that because that's a common misconception is that if somebody loves their kids enough, they can stop. That's not true.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

And once again, goes back to the media because when I saw that on the shows when I was younger, that's kind of what it portrayed to me. And I thought, okay, yeah, I can definitely get her to love me more than the substance. And then it got, as I got older, there's a very specific moment. She was putting dishes in a dishwasher, and I was watching her, and it just hit me. And I thought to myself, the hardest part about addiction for somebody that's not using, and somebody watching it, is watching the person you love so much do this thing that's so harmful, and knowing there's not a single thing you can do about it for them. And I God, I think I might have been 19, maybe 20, when I had that realization.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

What about that particular memory? Like, do you remember what triggered that for you? Like, why in that moment when she was emptying the the dishes did you have that thought?

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Um, truthfully, it was because she was being so motherly in that moment, and I was just like, wow, I really like I wish I could have this all the time. Um what really triggered it for me and in that specific moment because it was like I said, the small little things that I would see, and for some reason I saw it then and I just realized yeah, I can't I can't get her back unless she wants it.

Hospitalization And Coercive Eating Disorder Care

SPEAKER_03 19:37

How did that to go back to what Erica had had asked, how did that then, or when I should say, when did you notice that it had turned into a different relationship with food?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Um I honestly I did not notice until I was being brought to the hospital and they were telling me like you have an eating disorder. I really just thought everyone else around me was saying all this stuff because I also had women in my life that saw me getting skinnier and thought, oh my god, your body is exactly what I want to look like. So it was all these different messages coming to me, and I had so, so much anxiety that I just wasn't eating because in my brain, I was like, Well, I'm so anxious, I can't eat this food right now. But little did I know that was me being like, No, I'm not eating because I'm feeling this way and I don't want to do that, and I was turning away from so many things, and just once I was in it, that's when it honestly hit me. Oh, I I do have an eating disorder, but to admit that to myself was very, very hard.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Erica, I'm curious when Allie was talking because it seems like you could relate to that. Do you is there something you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Oh, yeah. Um I had um let's see, my disordered eating started around like between 13 and 16. And it was because it was one thing that I felt like I could control my clinical severity. I did a process of keeping it like right at the edge, we'll say, Um, for people not to notice, um, and went through different series of recovery. And so it really took me a long time to acknowledge that it was a uh it was a an something that I needed to work on, um, that I was. Something that impacted my health in a way that I wasn't recognizing. And so there's this moment when you finally have a conversation with someone where you acknowledge it. And I feel like that process of being like, yeah, like it is an issue. And that process of recovery. It's um like for me personally, I think that it's a I acknowledge it is it's almost like a it's a different form of um a relationship with a substance, right? In a in a different way. So I I don't I I see it as a a form of addiction in in its own way, of uh, and and for me the way that it manifests is is kind of like a a method of control and a method of denial of of connection of your own body. Like this was a a method of of like when you were talking about like I'm just so anxious, I'm not gonna eat right now, right? This context of your mind, um short circuiting your relationship with hunger and nourishment is is one that really takes a lot of time to to understand and break too.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Erica, was yours also directly linked to trauma? I'm assuming it was, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Um yeah, I think that in some ways it was related to so well, you know, it's also very um, there's a a large Venn diagram of overlap with neurodiverse traits and um disordered eating around food, um, just because it can also it can be related to um your relationship with like textures and flavors and how that changes over time, the amount of effort that it takes to make food and um, you know, societies revolve around food, right? Uh our our ability to function as a society, as uh humanity itself runs on food and our relationship with food. Um, so I think that for me it was trauma related and also um I think it was it was very control related, um, and it was very like defiance related. Um, and so I think that when I don't think that I would be able to pick a specific aspect of trauma it was, but it was a way of rebelling and having complete control over my body, even if it was destructive.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

That makes sense. This is part of the reason I started the podcast because sometimes I think all of the diagnoses out there, like if we were look at the DSM five, how many of them are actually just related to trauma? Okay, because I think everything boils down to trauma. I mean, I'm sure without even knowing your mom, there was probably a history of trauma that made her start using drugs, right? So, like we look at it as a drug disorder, we look at it as like disordered eating, but or we look at it as anxiety, depression, all these other things. But the reality is that so many of them are trauma-based.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Right? Like everything seems to be based in trauma.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

And so Allie, you said it first came to your attention when you were hospitalized. So somebody were you hospitalized on your own? Like, did were you did you self-admit?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

No, I was brought to the hospital. They told me to go once because my heart rate was so low. Um, so I went with my dad and I think I believe my sister, I think that was it. And I was in the room and a social worker came in, and they because I was 19 at the time, so I could have said, no, I'm not doing this. They asked me if I would be admitted. They said we'll put you in Hasbro because they felt they had a better program. Um, so I saw the look on my dad and my sister's face, and I was like, okay, I'll do it. Um, because once again, I was just like, I don't need to be in this, but I guess if they want me to do it, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

For those people who don't live in Rhode Island, Hasbro was a children's hospital specific to Rhode Island. I just wanted to throw that out, throw that out there in case people were thinking you went to Hasbro Toy Company. I I know they didn't think that, but that would have been way more fun. I'm sorry, it would have been and and you said your experience there wasn't that great, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:55

In terms of it was not. I I think it was because I felt as though they they treated me like I didn't know anything, and as if I was much younger than I was. So that was hard because you know, if I went there now at 34, I know way less than I did at 19 in the sense of my mindset of thinking I'm an adult, I know more than you all do. So I had a hard time with that, and it was the way that they would make you eat stuff, they make you eat the entirety of a plate. So, like Erico is saying, Textures, I'm neurodivergent as well. And so, textures, like I don't like red sauce. I I can do it, but I don't like a lot of it. And I remember there was one day where I said to the woman eating with me, I can't, I don't eat red sauce, I don't like it. And she said, I'm so sorry, but you have to eat it all. So it was just instead of making them form this relationship with food that I would value, it became such a chore, and I wanted to avoid it because it would be like, pick these meals, and one you're also eating hospital food, so it's not like you're eating these amazing meals. Um so I would eat them and they would just be not great sometimes, and it would it was the force feeding of it all when I was already having such a hard time. And then I doubled up on the food, uh, they asked me because I wanted to get out sooner, which then because my stomach was so like trunken, it um actually made me my body was rejecting it and I was throwing up a lot. Um, not on purpose, just my body was not holding it down. So then it was okay, well, then you have to drink X amount of N sure because we need to make sure of that you're getting all of it in. So it just became this really hard relationship with food that made me hate it so much more because it wasn't like a oh, I get to go eat this meal and this is gonna be so enjoyable. It was more like, oh my god, if I don't get this down, they're telling me I have to stay longer. And if I have to stay longer, then that means I have to do this and do that. And it was it was really hard mentally when I was already going through such a hard time with so many other things. Um, and instead of looking at, you know, the trauma and the core of everything, they were just trying to get me to shove food down my throat as much as I possibly could.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

If you think about the psychological impacts that would have on somebody, because as Erica said, you that was a sense of control, right? So eating and food intake is how you have control in a place where you don't feel like you have any control. And then the one area you control, they take away from you. They take full control over it, and then they force you to do what they're saying. I mean, that the the impact that would have on somebody would be pretty significant.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yes, and it made me once again add it onto the anger. Um, I remember specifically one night my mom called me and that she was intoxicated, so she was laying all of her stuff onto me, and I couldn't handle it, obviously, in the state I was already in, and I lost it. I threw the phone across the room, they had to come in. I think they gave me out of van. They were just trying to get me to calm down, and then they ended up taking the phone away from me. But in the reality, all I was thinking was like, no, my mom was blaming me for stuff, and that's why this happened. But there was no thoughts of that, it was just being related to at least from my perspective, it was being related to the fact that I was in there for my disordered eating and my anorexia, which then made me really want to hide the fact that I was going through it because I can talk about so many things from my childhood, but when my anorexia gets brought up, I feel like I have to hide that so much more because it's looked at in such a different way, especially with doctors. I hate telling doctors that I've been hospitalized for it because I immediately see the shift in them when I say, Oh, yes, I was hospitalized for anorexia, and I immediately am like, I was 19. I'm like, so that way they can just look at me as if I'm not just that diagnosis, but that is that's the immediate feeling I get when I tell anybody about it.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Which makes sense, and that's the downside to the medical model that we use because everything is focused on diagnosis, like they don't see you as a person. I want to go back to something you had said when you had said you lost it. Ellie, you had a normal response to an abnormal situation, right? So you didn't lose anything, right? Like your response to what your mother was doing to you was completely appropriate. What she was doing to you was inappropriate. So I just want to reframe that for you.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Thank you. I needed that reframe.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Yeah, I think that there are times in which um especially when you're the child and the pressure cooker, you know, that that was happening at that time. I I feel like I I mean I I honestly don't have have words. So number one, thank you for sharing that. And I I say this because I can relate to having to sit to finish a meal and also at times in this point of trying of recovery, trying to increase what you are eating, but working with a stomach that isn't ready. I think that this component of your first experience working in this space, that it was so violative. Like I um holding space for that younger version of you that didn't have the support, you know. I I don't know if things have gotten better. I w I wonder about that. Also, in this like recovery, recovery is complex. And when you have these cycles of quote unquote treatment that are not sustainable, like I would say that I was you know forced to eat in a way out of care and love, and it was not the thing that helped me actually uh maintain uh recovery, like in a stable way. Those methods that I was introduced to also, you know, at a young age, of just forcing through it didn't, you know, I still ended up relapsing several times throughout my life with that kind of framework.

Stigma Benzos And Treatment Disconnects

SPEAKER_01 34:49

So absolutely, and I feel the same, and thank you for sharing that as well, Erica. Um yeah, I did not I didn't find true recovery until I myself just like you said, found something that worked well for me that reframed my my thoughts about food and eating and and how it helped my body. I didn't really like the mind-body connection definitely was not there, especially when I was going through treatment. Um and then even when I went to Butler, they which I will say I did think it was a better program. Um, but like most programs too, there was a lot of well, you need to be put on this medication and you need to do this medication. And they were giving me Atavan, and I not until recently realized, you know, how addictive Atavan can be for individuals, and how you know now it's used to help those going through withdrawal and like all of those things. And I'm like, I was 19, and they were telling me, like, take this whenever you're anxious or whenever this is happening.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Um did they tell you it was addictive at the time, or was it did they like omit that part?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Not that I'm remembering you're aware of, okay. Which I'm also I anytime I would get medication, I would always tell a doctor, like, listen, my mom has issues with substances, so I'm very like, I get very nervous taking certain things because I don't want to be reliant on it.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

You know, it's funny, not well, it's kind of funny, but it's really inappropriate in terms of the professional. When I I have a significant phobia of blood work, I get vasovagal response, I pass out, it's like a whole big event, right? I've gotten much better at it over time. But when I was in my early 20s, I wouldn't get blood work at all because I was so it was a it was an event. When I tell you it was an event, it was an event. And I remember the doctor had given me Xanax at the time and had said, you know, take Xanax to go with blood work. Now, at the time I was already working in addiction, so I know Xanax is addicting, and I mentioned that to him. I had said, you know, I'm concerned about the addictive nature of a benzodiazepine. And he looked at me and he said, People like you and I don't get addicted. And I was like, What the hell does that mean? Like, seriously. Um, and of course, he this is a doctor I've talked about many times on the podcast. He is such a douche. But there is this perception of either like you fit the bill or you don't, right? And if you say, I have a family member who has a history of addiction, sometimes you're automatically profiled as somebody who is going to get addicted to something. And, you know, they should have disclosed to you to begin with that it was addicting. And that for again, for people who don't live in Rhode Island, the hospital that Ali's talking about, that's a specific to it's a mental health hospital that's like the number one hospital in Rhode Island. Um, and having worked with them in a in a collateral way, as because I worked for part of that network, I can tell you they don't always have the greatest treatment for people. They really don't. No.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

I I because I was in the group with a lot of other women, which they were all phenomenal women. Um, but I also learned a lot about disordered eating, being around these other women, because like I said, I didn't know a lot of things. I didn't know what a fear food was. Um, I didn't know all these little things until I was at Butler with the other women. And, you know, I was around women that knew the calories of every little thing and this and that, but then that was the focus. But then the times when we were having fun, they'd be like, Oh guys, we can't be laughing. Or one time we all got in the elevator and one of the girls laughed and said, How many anorexics can you fit in the elevator? And we all thought it was hysterical because we're the ones going through it. So we were like laughing, and they were like, That's no laughing matter. And I'm like, You're not the one that's having to go on this program because you're part of it. You're here because you work in it. Like, if we're laughing, give us that moment. Like it's a form of connection for us right now. And we're having to come here every day, and then we leave at three o'clock and we wake up, we're having to come here again. And so, yeah, there is a lot of yeah, a lot of just that stigma or the like the fear that they had that oh my god, they're they're talking about it like this, which means they think this is a joke. And it's like, no, we know it's not a joke. Some of us almost died.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

We are aware that it's there's a huge disconnect. I I would agree with you on Ali on this. There's a huge disconnect between people who are working professionally and when the population that they're working with. It's almost like sometimes they think they're on a different level. Uh I'm sure, Erica, as a vet, you probably don't run into this with your pets because your patients because they don't talk. But I mean, I I particularly remember there was a program at the hospital I worked at that specialized in postpartum depression, the day hospital, right? So people would go there. And that was great for a very specific type of woman. But the women we worked with, they had a history of addiction, they had a history of homelessness, they had addiction, you know, all sorts of like different types of histories. So they would go in there and they would see these very um upper middle class women who work at the day hospital. And this is not me making this up. This actually came out of a client's mouth of mine. She was like, they were sitting there eating quinoa and talking about doing yoga and like how wonderful their lives were. And she's like, I don't even have housing. And she's like, I can't connect to any of these women. And they don't seem to get that. They lose the they lose that part of the population that they're working with, and then they cater to a very specific population. So the people that they were seeing were very, very affluent women who predominantly white. I I bet it was probably the same at the hospital you were at that they're very they're looking for a particular population. Right. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

And it and then it became um, you know, they they definitely looked at us almost like a childlike mindset for some of us. Like they had OT come, and there was one woman who was phenomenal at occupational therapy, and she had us doing these great activities, and then another person came and she was just like, Okay, color. And I remember one of the women in the program was in, I'd say like her late 50s, and she's like, I don't want to color. She's like, I want to do something else, like that's not what I want to do, and that's all the woman would have us do. So we eventually complained about that because we were like, that's not helping us, and if we're saying it's not helping, then that should be listened to. And then while at the same time I was going to Butler, I had to go back to an office that the doctors at Hasbro worked at. And when I went, I spoke to the doctors, and they were trying to convince me that I had to go to a treatment center for my eating disorder. And I said, No, I don't. No, I do not. I do not need to do that. And in the other room, they were trying to convince my dad of the same thing. And my dad said, No, she does not need to do that. Um, and I'm thankful that I've always been strong-minded in the sense of like I know what I will and will not do, and you're not gonna tell me any other way, and unless I know it's needed, like when I first went into Hasbro. But based on being around the women at Butler, I saw another side of it that I didn't know. And then I went back to Butler the next day and told everyone, and even the woman that ran the program, they were all like, absolutely not, you do not need to do that. And in fact, it led to more stories about how bad it is when you are in those centers and you are in like in a like full treatment program for it and not going home. I was hearing stories from the women that I was just like, What? Like how they were able to hide so they didn't have to eat, or they became friends with somebody so then they could get away with X, Y, and Z. And I was just like, This isn't actually helping so many women because it wasn't just one of them telling me the story.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

So, yeah, I mean that unfortunately that's that's a system problem. I mean, I I remember having a client that was in uh trampatrium drug court, and I she specifically said to me, I can't wait till I graduate so I can start getting help. Yeah, and I was like, Well, that's a freaking statement. I mean, it's a statement for a couple different reasons, but that is more common than what you're Talking about Allie, that's really common. It's people manipulate the system because the system is not helping them. So they manipulate it to get out of it so that they can unfortunately go back to what they're doing because they weren't getting any help to begin with, anyway. It's hugely problematic.

Building Recovery With Strength Training

SPEAKER_01 44:15

And they were very much um they just tried to limit you from doing really anything if it wasn't focused around getting better with food. And the thing that actually made me have a different relationship with food was when I decided to start working out, which was very much like you cannot work out. I will say it was years down the line when I started to turn into like, you know, I want to start gaining muscle and stuff like that. And it made me see the value in food in the nutrition sense and what it's doing for my body and how I needed it. Um, and that's really what switched it. And I wasn't going to a doctor, that was all me. I I started doing that, and I started to actually I tracked what I ate, which I know for some individuals that would not work well at all. For me personally, this is what worked, and I don't want anyone to do this thinking it's going to be the solve for them. For me personally, it worked because I saw how little I was eating for what I wanted to then do with like weightlifting and stuff like that, and it it really changed a lot for me.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Thank you, Allie. Erica, did you have any questions? Um or comments.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yeah, I would say so. I remember the moment um where I had been like really, really solidly in recovery for a long period of time. And I had this moment where I was like, my nails, like the way that my nails felt, and it had this moment of feeling like like um so I it's it's a little indescribable. I'm having a hard time articulating it, but it's like a moment of feeling like really grounded in uh recovery, and I'm just curious um if there was a moment for you that that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Yeah, so I um I had just moved to North Carolina. I it actually ties back into my my mom. I at 22 or 23, I got an article sent to me of an individual that lived at my mom's house at the time, and he was being arrested for you know, it he was sex trafficking women, essentially. He was finding women, and then like and then having them perform sex and things like that, and just doing terrible, terrible things. And um I saw the article, and all of a sudden I showed it to a friend, and I said, Oh, this is so weird. Like this guy used to be in my mom's blah blah blah, told her all these background things, and she said, You know, that's not normal, right? And that comment sent me into a spiral because everything just started clicking, all the little things that I could never put together just started to make sense, and I was like, Oh my god, my mom was a sex worker, and so then I went really bad into anxiety to the point where I wasn't leaving at the time my um boyfriend's room. I could not leave, my anxiety was so bad, and so then I texted my dad, I said, I should have moved to North Carolina because I always wanted to. He said, You should. And so I moved two weeks later, and then when I was down there, I felt like I had a new start to everything. I was in a new state, I didn't know anyone, I had some of my family. Um, and so I thought, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna start working out, and I I wanna I want to gain weight, like I want to do this, and I wanted to do it in a way that I thought was going to be healthy and not just like doing it in a different disordered eating way, so and that so that's kind of when it clicked was when I went to North Carolina, and also the I was sick of the comments, you know. I know a lot of people talk about just bodies and uh just all the comments you get. And when I was going through my eating disorder and trying so hard to gain weight, so many people thought it was okay to make comments about how skinny I was and like guess my weight because I was skinny and not overweight. So they thought, oh no, this is okay. And I just got so sick of it. I was like, I don't want to be the person that is the center of the conversation based off of what my body looks like. Thank you for sharing that.

Why Social Work Became The Goal

SPEAKER_03 49:11

Thank you both. Erica, thank you as well. In because we are close to out-of-time alley. So if you to to wrap up, can you tell us how that how that impacted your decision to go into social work? And if there's somebody out there who's listening to the episode right now that struggles with disordered eating or knows somebody that has disordered eating, what would your suggestion be?

SPEAKER_01 49:42

So it led me to go into social work because I had so many people helping me. Um, and at a young age, my dad had me going to uh family tides, and I met a woman there, and she truly changed my life, which then made me be like, I think maybe I might want to do that someday. Um and then when I started to think about going back to school, uh, one of my friends who is in social work said, You should go for social work instead of psych, because I was gonna go for psych. Uh, she's like, there's just so many more avenues. And because of the backgrounds of of my life, uh, I started to go into social work and I realized like, okay, they look at not just like the person, they're looking at like the systems around it, and this and that, and that really sparked so much for me into wanting to change certain systems, the eating disorder um programs and treatment being one of them. Um, and if somebody is dealing with disordered eating, I would truly say community is what really helped me quite a lot to have a different mindset. Uh, the women in that program that I was in still, I think of them each constantly. And they were the ones that really pushed to tell me, like, you're gonna be, you're gonna get through this. And I think about them constantly. Um, so I would say community and really working through working through your own trauma. Like we said, it really relates back to the trauma. Until I started going to therapy and sitting with myself, that's when I was able to see the bigger picture. And I thought that this one version of me was just who I was as a person, but little did I know that was just a version of me that was holding so much hurt, and I was trying to suppress it when I should have been nurturing those parts of me and um finding ways to connect back to myself and essentially love myself and reparent myself and forgive myself. That's really what I think it would come down to forgive myself for my past actions because I was doing the best I could with what I knew at the time.

Final Takeaways And Listener Questions

SPEAKER_03 52:35

Self-love. I love that. Absolutely. Ali, thank you so much for sharing that and being vulnerable. And um I will, if anybody has any questions, feel free to email me. And then if um you want, I can run them to you, Ali, if anybody has any questions. Um and Erica, thank you as always for being awesome and for being here and for being fabulous.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

And thank you for bringing us together, right? Because this is this is uh the seed that you planted for these conversations to happen. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

And this will kick off, this will be the kickoff to the the series we're gonna do on mental health. So this is great. So thank you so much, Allie, and thank you, everybody, for tuning in as always.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Thank you. Thanks for having me.