S4 E:5 The Pros and Cons of Peer Led Support Groups

Matt reflects on a retreat and discussed the pro's and con's of peer led support groups.  This is the first episode is a mini series topic about when therapy is weaponized.  

Matt talks about the effectiveness of peer groups, in terms of creating a mutual safe space that lacks professional power differentials.  Matt and Erika discuss how this can be an asset to people who are in need of this space.  We also explore mutual aid and reciprocity.

However, when people enter this for the wrong reasons the damage can be severe.  Matt briefly touches on a sexual predator who was using the men's groups as his personal grooming grounds.  They also discuss how professionals who change roles can sometimes be too connected to ego and not enough to the process.  We also look at when therapeutic colloquialisms like "tell me how you feel" or "I invite you to" sound great on TV, but may not elicit a deeper connection.  

We look at difference between knowledge and skill and how sometimes this can be a quagmire of uncertainty.

After Erika and I recorded, it was brought to my attention that the person I referenced was arrested and accused of operating a massage parlor which was alleged to be a prostitution ring.

Unlicensed Coventry massage therapist charged with prostitution, police say 

Subscribe for more honest conversations about PTSD, mental health, and community care, then share this with someone who’s searching for safe support and leave a review with your biggest peer support green flag. What’s the one boundary every group should enforce?

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Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae. 


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.  


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I'm here with the wonderful Erica. Hi, Erica.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Hi. This is, you know, I think that when you talk about your your morning, like, you know, affirmation, positive affirmation, I am never so delightfully introduced. Um like any anywhere, place, or time, I would not be so delightfully introduced. No, it's like a little dopamine every single day.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hey, listen, I share my fabulous and I only hang out with fabulous people. So I'm gonna put that out there right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Wonderful. Okay, yes. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Thank you. We have had I have had a roller coaster of the of a past week.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

It's been a wild week.

News Anxiety And Knowledge Loss

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Oh, it's been a wild week, and it ties in nicely to the topics we wanted to start off with about um mental health because we're gonna do that mental health series. But before we get to that, Eric and I were just talking about the crazy things that are happening in our just in the media and the stuff around us. And we've got another scientist dies in a plane accident, which, if that's connected, would be the 12th scientist that's died in a short period of time, which is very alarming and strong.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

My brain is my brain is wrapping around it because there is this thing about um big things in history happening, right? Around us, like where I, you know, I consider myself just like a regular everyday person, right? So this like you have these things like these scientists and researchers disappearing. I haven't had time to review like all of the things that they did or were a part of, but they are important people. And I I just think also about how should I say like the legacy of science, because it's not not just scientists who have gone missing or been killed, but there are whole research labs and institutions that are being dismantled, right? So, for example, the US Forest Service labs are being closed and they are um those are research facilities that have certain projects that have been running for like 87 years studying the impacts of like mining and other types of um extractive processes and like logging on environments for 87 years. And it's very uncommon to have that type of length of study. So just like um people who leave scientific institutions that have like bodies of knowledge that they have um witnessed. I mean, within veterinary medicine, it's like um to be honest, like beef cow veterinarians, right? The whole style of veterinary medicine that we are losing like knowledge from. So, yeah, it is knowledge loss is um a very serious thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

You know what it made me think of actually when I heard it, and I just remembered it when you were talking too, is the person, the friend of yours that we interviewed about the bird flu and how nefarious that seems. And I have no doubt there is some sort of behind-the-scenes stuff happening because as you said before, history repeats itself, and it's certainly there are many times where things have been labeled conspiracy theories that actually have come to pass and have come true, right? So, like it's not the first time the government has done shady things. So I certainly am more inclined to believe something nefarious is happening behind the scenes. And then we have this other, I just saw it today, I was at a retreat, the uh White House attempt shooting again, which I I don't even know if I believe that that was not manufactured either.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

I mean, either it's manufactured or it's a sign of the times, right? Both are I think equal equally likely.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

It's hard to tell. It's very hard to tell.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

Um I would say it's not an overstatement um to say that like people are really hurting right now, and in some ways uh during times of the most like severe, how should I say, like tumultuousness, right? Um there are people who like it is a cycle, like psychological health is something that becomes much more complex. And there are lots of different ways that people have to lean into skills of of maintaining um mental health, and there are a lot of different ways that is done, and that kind of like leans into what what we're gonna be talking about today.

Why Mental Health Gets Harder

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yes, and what I think I should have said first is that Eric and I were talking about maybe just for the first couple of minutes doing uh uh like what the hell is going on in the right now, and then our responding to the news. But we're not gonna that'll just be like the brief part, but then we'll do the topic, and then at the end, Erica's gonna end with an awesome story that I can't wait to hear.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Oh, yeah.

Peer Support Benefits And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Something funny about cats. Which is that's the best. Come on, like that's the best. So we're gonna do, we had talked about doing a series on mental health and just the different aspects of it. And one of the topics we talked about was when people either are using therapy in a in a way that is not helpful or going into it for the wrong reasons. And we something that I experienced is going to a more of like a peer-led support type of event over the weekend and realizing how many just kind of negative experiences can come out of that in addition to positive experiences. So I figured we would jump down that rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

Yeah. So yeah, so we're we're talking about as far as like peer the world of peer support.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

And what that could look like.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

Yeah.

unknown 7:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

I'm I'm wondering if it might help if we do like a question type of thing. So like maybe if you do have a question, then we can spin off that. Because I'll just talk randomly.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Uh so like when when we're talking about peer support, right? Let's talk about like the dimensions of peer support. So, like, for example, one would be like going to a support group, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

So, like a not like a peer-led non-clinical support group, like a 12-step type of support group, that okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Well, any like so like the different kinds of peer support groups that people like seek? Um, I think what I mean, when you think about it from the perspective of a mental, like a mental health clinician and a licensed, you know, mental health professional, um what are some of the ways that you talk to also as a as a teacher, right? What are the kinds of ways that you talk about like peer support? Like what can I be, what's good about it versus now when we're gonna talk about what goes wrong, right? But what are like some of the benefits of peer support?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

There's lots of benefits to it. The I I would put the biggest one at there is in a true traditional peer support group that there is no clinical person uh present, there's less duty to warn type of stuff, and there's less things that people have to worry about so people can be more free about what they talk about. I think about a group that I was running one time where a client that I had had made a was involved in like a legal system sort of thing and had said to me, I can't wait till I'm out of the legal system so I can actually start being honest with you, which was really kind of eye-opening because one that spoke highly of the relationship, right? That somebody can be honest and say, like, I can't wait to start getting help. But it shows why things that are maybe sometimes clinical or connected to legal services or other types of services are very intimidating. And there may be legal ramifications. So people are hesitant to be honest about that. When you're in a peer support group, you don't have that. So people can then just be really open and honest about what's going on in their lives, and there's there's less of a boundary thing. So in a again, in a true clinical relationship, you don't have like a different type of relationship with your clients. It's professional. Whereas in a peer support group, the you can go hang out with your peers, you can call them up on off hours, you can weigh less professional, you don't have to. So that's another bonus to peer-led groups. There also is more, I think, of uh an information exchange because people are going through the same stuff at the same time. So they there may be like nuanced stuff that somebody that's having a lived experience could give, whereas somebody who didn't have it can't. So I mean, that's also the positive. So I there certainly are lots of good things that that can come out of peer-led groups or organizations. Um the do we want to talk about the downside of it now? Sure.

unknown 10:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

So the downside of it is that um, you know, as I was saying before we started recording, you can say you're not a surgeon, right? And then go operate on somebody, and you're gonna do a lot of harm because you're not a surgeon. And in pure lead groups, there are people who maybe go into it for the wrong reasons. They're kind of like this wounded healer, right? Somebody who is internally suffering and they want to heal that, but they can't heal it on their own. So they look for a way to disperse that energy. And the problem is, even though they're saying, okay, like, hey, this isn't clinical and this is just a pure thing, if you're providing therapy, which is end up which is what ends up happening sometimes, that is not healthy. That can actually go rogue pretty quickly. And if you're not skilled at what you're doing, you can take that peer of yours and they can spiral out of control.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Okay. So let's start like definition of therapy. You know, when you're when you're speaking in that moment where you're saying if you provide therapy, right, when when what would that what would that be considered, right? In a period.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

That's a really great question. I it is funny because people will often, if somebody knows that I'm a therapist, or or I'm sure this happens to other therapists, you can ask somebody a question and their first response is don't do that therapy on me. And it's like, okay, I'm just asking you a question, right? So not therapy. Okay. So therapy is when you have a when you're doing really deep work on either your thoughts and your emotions and how they connect to each other, and you're doing like exploratory work with somebody else, and you're doing it on an ongoing basis, that where and it's a one-sided thing, right? So I'm providing you a service or I'm there to help you navigate the trauma that you have, the life experiences that you have in holding that space for you without, in theory, without bringing the stuff that I have into that relationship, unless it's gonna somehow benefit the client, right? It's it's never about like I'm telling you this if you do self-disc, or if I self-disclose or anybody, you're self-disclosing for the benefit of the client, not for you, which is different than if it's not therapy, right? So if it's a peer-led thing, you're just kind of gonna go back and forth.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

Is this well, you know, when you're what I'm hearing here is that like in some ways when talking about things that cause like are part of emotional or psychological distress or struggle, um, that the exchange of information as far as giving advice or framework or or processing or being there while someone is processing, right? That certain things can go sideways and harm can happen.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

Now, what would you say is the most common things that can go wrong in those types of what a great question.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

The recent ones that I've seen, and I've seen this on a couple of different levels, as we were talking about before we started recording, where somebody has an experience and whatever they did worked for them, which is not necessarily to say that whatever they did was healthy, it just worked for them. And they see everything through that lens, which is okay, this is how I got to like point A, and this is how everybody needs to get to point A.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

And that can be really destructive because you can't, not everybody has the same path. That's the most common one I see. In the second most common mistake that I see or barrier, is when the relationship becomes more of an intimate relationship, and at the same time as there's like weird kind of pseudo-therapeutic relationship because it's a peer type of support. And that plays out in a very negative way. Often there's like a power differential. One of the, I think actually, before you were doing the podcast with me on one of the other episodes, way back in the past, I talked about a type of pattern I saw working with women when they would get sober, is that there would often be like an older guy who would come in again, peer. This is not like a clinical therapist or anything, who would come in and had, you know, like long-term recovery himself, or wasn't somebody in recovery at all, but wasn't using, and would want to like rescue her. This is super common. So then they would like move her in and they would transport her to meetings and they would help her get her, you know, with her children if she had children, they'd give her money, blah, blah, blah, you know, until that person starts to get sober. And then when that person starts to get sober and they start to get their life together, they they have a tendency to then be like, okay, I don't really want to be with this person that I'm staying with because this is not really what I wanted. And then it reverses because then the person starts sabotaging their recovery to get them to go back to where they were so that they need them again. And you can sometimes see that type of behavior in peer-led things.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Okay. Oh gosh. Does that make sense? Like my brain, my brain just went to like nexium for a second. Do you so I mean, but that would be that would be an example of a peer support coaching space that went very, very, very wrong.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Very wrong. Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Okay. So my brain right now is trying to um is processing because you also have so in some ways this is about having like it's it's I hear it's just also about relationship, right? Because what you talked about as an example is an example of like a dyadic, you know, like some type of romantic right intimacy relationship. Yeah. Um, which uh I would say I actually hits a little bit home actually with a a previous partnership. Oh in a way.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Do you want to talk about that?

Vulnerability And Recovery Sabotage

SPEAKER_04 17:05

Well, it had to do with my I was a it's about, I think in some ways it's about vulnerability. I was in a vulnerable space and I was ended up in a partnership. I was having a anorexia flare. And this was someone that noticed, right, and supported me in my recovery around and eating, and just in general. I was not I was very burned out. I was and it was very much a caretake, right? And I was uh my life was a little bit in shambles and I was rebuilding, so it was very vulnerable. And there was a lot of the support and the care. And as I was getting things together for myself and also like because I was still clear about what what I was working towards and what I cared about, um, and I was just working towards those things as well. And um and there became tension. And at some point or another, I recognized that in order for me to like actually get the thing like work more prominently towards the things that I wanted to get done, that I that I needed to not be in that relationship anymore. That it was actually like yeah, it wasn't I was it wasn't a case where I was gonna be able to pursue those things. Oh there was a lot of conflict. It was not a pretty it was not a pretty breakup. Yeah, I got to see a different side of that person with some of the things that they said.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

They you I I'm guessing that they used what you had when you were vulnerable, they used the vulnerable information against you, correct?

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Um yeah, there were some things that were said trying to bring up like naming it as part of a previous pattern about me projecting things. Um I think the biggest thing when I realized when I was like away from it, um, I realized that food was weaponized again.

Predators In Self-Help Spaces

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yep. And that's I I mean, I don't know the person, so I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious, but that's a pattern of what happens when people are looking to help other people when they're in a very specific way. And I'll share the story that I was talking about earlier. I'm obviously not going to name the place, but how I found the event that I went through, what that I went to was somebody had reached out to me and that I didn't know that I was talking to on an app and had uh shared this information about this place. And I was getting this really kind of creepy vibe from the person. So I didn't want to go. Uh this person was somebody that was in a helping profession. And after some time went on, I thought, okay, maybe I'm being a little judgy. Let me give this person a chance, and met the person who explained more about this place and um got more creepy vibes, and then mentioned what they did for a living, but that they didn't practice anymore. And uh after I left, I looked them up, and it turned out the reason why they don't practice anymore is because they sexually assaulted people and uh got away with it. And you now use self-help or support places to try to groom people who are vulnerable. And the problem I ran into was even though I had that information and shared it, the place is afraid of a legal situation. So they had to address it and give the person a chance. But this is a person that I saw openly trying to groom people, right? And that's why I'm saying like the peer support stuff can be really great, but there needs to be some level of professional regulation, in my opinion, to make sure that stuff like that doesn't happen. Because that person, I guarantee you, has damaged people and is going to continue to damage people in a predatory way.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

Yeah. I mean, straight up predator.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

And that places that are peer run, that's a that's an attract, that's like a it's like a bait, it's like a hook. Cause it's like Oh, I can go there and I can just do whatever I want and get away with it. So it's really disturbing. And I think if you know people are out there, and I'm not, again, I'm not shitting on self-help stuff by any means. I think support groups. We were talking about is how to recognize.

SPEAKER_04 22:14

Yeah. Recognize three things, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

It's how to recognize that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

And also if you run one of those groups and someone comes to you and says, I had an experience that made me very uncomfortable, you act on that information.

Groupthink And Cult Risk

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Absolutely. And the issue here was that even though I provided the information in a timely manner, it wasn't acted on for about six months. And I certainly was very vocal about this is why people don't report in the first place, because it's it's it's the perception is that you're protecting a predator and that you're ignoring people who are seeing things or experiencing or being victimized. So yeah, you have to, you absolutely have to address it. The other thing I was thinking about, Erica, I don't know where this came from when you were talking, but I had my brain went off somewhere and pulled it from the nether. When you have you have a group of like, say, six or seven people, or it could be even smaller, and you have like say two people are unhealthy and they are acting out their pathology in a very unhealthy way, what came to my mind was the crucible, right? Like the Salem witchcraft trials.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

The kind of, you know, not a foliage do, but like when it's a it's a bigger thing, right? So like people see that and then they start, they kind of jump on the bandwagon because it feels right to them. And if if anybody, if any of the listeners ever have ever had this experience, if you go to any big organization, like a church or like a support group or anything, and the large majority of the people are doing something. Like to keep it simple, we'll say church, right? So people are like, okay, stand up, sit down, kneel, right? If you don't want to do it, but everybody else is around you doing it, a lot of people cave to that and they just do it, right? Because they they don't want to like stand out, they don't want to look awkward. And that's another danger that can happen is that if two people are acting out in a toxic way, the other people are more like likely, if they're not coming from like a well-adjusted background, to then join into that pathology.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Well, I'm hearing two things here. Uh, groupthink, as far as and dangers of groupthink, um othering, which as far as like a social like, but you know, I I will say something up here. Um, my my brain, one of my lovely autistic traits, um, I am completely not afraid of ostracization. Yes, like don't care. Uh, there are several organizations who have learned this about me where I'm just like, peace, y'all. Like, don't even, I'm just gonna roll on by. I think that might be a gift from my mom. That certainly is a strength and a gift, both genetically, potentially, and also behaviorally trained, right? Uh, you know, the world is big. The world is big. You can like, and and that is also the the joy of the journey of being human, right? That you don't have to ascribe to a a group um that is that feels off or wrong to you, you can leave that situation, and the power of leaving is very very it's not it's not easy. Like I will say that even to this day, as frequently as I have done it, it feels like setting myself on fire emotionally because there's a lot of fear of of the humans are like programmed to be loyal to a group in order to survive and not be eaten by scary tigers and bears.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Oh by really go back to basics, right?

Green Flags And Red Flags

SPEAKER_00 26:20

No, you you are you are a hundred percent correct in that that can you know there's a fine line where it could turn into a cult too, yes, if it gets if it gets deep enough. I mean, I think about Amy and some of the other people we've had talk about, like cults, right? And how they're well, they might start off well intended, but it kind of gets to this point. So I would say if you're somebody that goes to a type of support group, a green flag, I'll give you a green flag, a green flag would be if you give feedback and the feedback is received and heard and and it's honored. So if you say, like, hey, this doesn't work, or I notice this isn't working for people, or we're not getting people, they hear it and they modify it, right? A red flag, oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

Oh, I've just one more green flag. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would say any group that starts out communicating about certain values, although it doesn't necessarily mean that they follow them, but things about community guidelines and to the degree of the level of intimacy that is possible, the degree of the specificity of creating as safe as a space as possible, right? So do they have is a person that you can bring like concerns to identify, right? Or is there a regular like saying that if concerns should like to normalize the process of giving and receiving feedback?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Does that make sense? It does, and to add to that, I would say if there's a clear chain, right? Because the other thing is that there could be like six or seven people that you bring things to right because they share different roles. And this this happens in any organization, and they just kind of pass the buck, like, oh, I'm not the person, go talk to that person, I'm not the person, go talk to that person, and they just kind of keep doing that. So and you you would also said if they have guidelines and they don't follow it, or if they do follow it, that's super important. If they're following their own guidelines, that's a green flag. If they're willing to amend those guidelines based on feedback, that's also a green flag. If they show a lack of ego, that's a huge green flag. The red flags are when it's it's rooted in stubbornness and ego. When you bring something to the people and they get either offended by it or they shut down, or they're like, this is the way it's always been, this is the way it's gonna be. And that's a that can be a problem with a lot of these peer support type of groups where it doesn't evolve with the time. Think back to when recovery was you shave all their heads, you beat them down, you build them back up, and then that's gonna somehow change the way that that works. I mean, we knew that that didn't work for years and years and years, and particularly it didn't work for women, it didn't work for most men, but it was the way it was. It took a long time to change that, and even still some places do that.

SPEAKER_04 29:25

Our histories of our professions, right? They're your professions used to shave people's heads and torture them. Oh, yeah. My profession used to um provide medicine to chattel slavery.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Lovely, yeah. We've we have dark periods in our history. No, we do, we do.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

I mean, it's important to talk about or I mean, I think it's important to framework both to like recognize how far like human beings have how how much we evolved and yet not evolved at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

The other the other thing I would add is that much like I'm sure this happens in veterinarian stuff as well, where everybody is now an expert because of the information that they can get online, right? So I've heard of people Google like doing AI stuff and then saying, like, to doctors, oh, you're wrong because AI said this, right? Um, I think we all are getting a little bit of that. So people can go online and they can just like type in, how do I run a group on this? And they'll get like a narrative, and they might have some sort of outline they can follow. But an outline doesn't give you skills, it just gives you a format in the same way that a degree also doesn't give you skills. I mean, there are people out there that have degrees that are terrible, right? So I mean you have to have a fundamental set of skills to do the job, period.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

So yeah, go ahead, Penice.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

And I just I don't think that that happens. I think our bar sometimes changes.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Well, I think so. From what I'm hearing, like there's components of the problem at times with pure spaces, and is the for support to be support, you have to have space for the people to exist, right? Whether or not it's like their feedback, being honored and taken seriously. I'm gonna say that one more time. Like the the feedback, the experience, etc., like the people's people's experience mat matters.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Right. And so when we dismiss concerns or when we project what works for us and making assumptions that the other person, because you have experienced it one way or you do it one way or you feel one way about it, that that you assume that the other person should be able to go with that or accept that. Um, that that is a distinction. It's a lack of theory of mind. Is that is that does that sound right?

SPEAKER_00 32:06

A lack of theory of mind.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

Theory of mind. I don't know if I'm getting this phrase right. Well, it's a component of like being able to understand the other, right? To have compassion for the other.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

Yeah, reciprocity.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Empathy, yeah. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Yeah. The reciprocity or understanding that people's needs might be different under differ different circumstances. And this and this goes from individual relationships to like how we behave in social groups.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

One of the the biggest things that I have now noticed, because I never participated in any sort of group anything up until recently, is there is also in again, this is my opinion, and it could be because of my clinical background. And you know, much like a vet is part of who you are, you can't just turn it off. Well, yeah, right. And it's the same thing, I can't turn it off. I mean, I can never not be aware of what's happening. I can I cannot act on it, but I can't know what's happening, right?

SPEAKER_04 33:08

Right. And I think that that I don't I would say my observation, and this might not be accurate, I see this most frequently just like in um a percentage of healthcare professions. Right. Although I do think that there are some scientists, like unfortunately, the scientists who were killed are probably people like this who their science and that their specialty is something that they like kind of live you just live it. You just breathe, that's just who you are. Sure. Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

So I so I think in terms of the peer support stuff, is what I think I do is I make sure that if somebody is talking, that I give them the space to talk about what they're talking about without making it about me, but also recognizing that I'm there for the same thing, right? So like I can I can hold the space for that person without shifting the focus to me until they've talked about it enough or there's been enough kind of response, and there's like a natural shift in the conversation. But I I find what ends up happening, and this can sometimes be really, I think, harmful, is that people don't necessarily know to do that. So they might, you might drop a something really important, like a huge piece of information that is critical. You've never talked about it before. This is the first time you're talking about it because you're in a group of friends, and then the first response that comes to you is then about that person. So, oh yes, Erica, I had an experience that was similar to that. And then they tell a story that actually has nothing to do with what you're talking about, or is like loosely connected, you know, and that the reason why that's so harmful is because you just shared something that's critical, super important, and you got to a place of vulnerability and it just gets shot down. Yeah, or passed over, and passed over like it's not a big deal. And that I've seen that play out many times, and that's incredibly damaging to the person.

SPEAKER_04 35:23

Well, I think that this also provides like a tool or context, like for someone that if you do share something that's big for you in a group setting for the first time, and somebody does that to understand that the big thing is that you shared it in that space, right? And that to follow up with yourself with an in another way to like continue to process the thing that you said. Because when we're sharing it in a large group setting, there's no guarantee that it's going to be reserved. Oh, yeah, I definitely had a situation that comes to mind. Um, and in places like maybe me, or maybe it's too big of a thing for the space. Like, I've definitely been like in what I thought was a peer support space of like graduate students and like shared something that was really big, and like everyone was really awkward about it because uh, and I was like, I don't care if everyone else is feeling awkward, I'm gonna go ahead and be in my feelings, and I will cry if I need to cry. And all of you people are so uncomfortable with it. Like when people are uncomfortable bearing witness, like geez, that confuses me.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Well, especially if they're there for that purpose, right? Like if that's the reason why they're there in the first place, that's yeah, problematic.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

The way that I look at it is like I was a person who had had an ex had like a relationship with therapy from a young age, uh, and was like, I was like, I I just don't I I don't feel like you know, big things, big feelings. No big deal.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Oh, go ahead, we're gonna say something.

Motivation Matters In Helping

SPEAKER_04 37:15

I just I feel like so. That's the thing, it's like I feel like I see this in my practice as a veterinarian sometimes, where big things happen, right? Someone is is in is with me with big things, and this is like things like people who witness their companion animal be attacked by another dog, people who are attacked by dogs, right? People who are about to trying to like decide whether or not to, you know, like how they're feeling in that moment, like and the life of their companion, right? Um and I have so many people who apologize to me for for tears arising. And I always my reflection is always like this is a big thing apology, return to center. You release whatever you need to. Here's a box of Kleenex. Where well I don't say that out loud, I just hand them sure. But or and you know, so but so sometimes it's it's surprising to me. And like if you know, if ever a reason someone listens to this show who happens to have been one of those people, I just want to say it again, you know, like it is part of like I am honored to hold that space and to normalize and to just be like, it is okay to cry, it is okay to feel all of these things. Um and you know, it is important to know that sometimes there's space for it, and sometimes people aren't able to give that um to hold that space, right? Uh, and if that if you are listening and that didn't happen for you, I'm I'm sorry. And if it happens for you in the future, again, I'm sorry. And also, like you make space for yourself at another point in time.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah. The what I also wanted to add to that, Erica, is uh a green flag. I'll give you a green flag and a red flag, right? So, and again, these are all my based on my opinions and my experience, is that if there's a true, genuine caring, I think, about the person that you're talking to or the person that you're listening to, that's a positive, right? So, like every single person that I talk to, I care about, right? Like, it's not, these aren't people that I'm just making money off of. Like these are people I genuinely care about. So when I go to like a support group type of thing, when I'm talking to a person, and this is not part of there's no financial stuff happening, right? Because it's just I'm there for myself, I'm there for them. When that person's talking to me, they have my undivided attention and I care about what they're saying. And that's that's the first part of it, right? Is that and but that's you know, that's that's who I am. And I think part of a green flag is when somebody's being genuine. I think part of a red flag is when somebody's talking all the words like they've watched TV on how to do something, and they're saying things that just sound like canned. And the response is really about them being right or serving a purpose, right? So it's not about I care about you. It's that I want to feel good about myself. So I'm gonna be right and I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna help you, and I'm gonna fix you based on all of these things that I've been taught. That that's a red flag. Because to me, it it boils down to the person is doing it for themselves and they're trying to be like right. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 40:56

I I'm chewing on it. I'm chewing on it, and yes, and I'm chewing on it. Like, I think um it's it when we think about intentions, right? Um like oh overall, this really circles back to we you can see the different scales of this from like interpersonal to group. Um you could probably also get it on an institutional level for sure. Um and um yeah, and I think it circles back to, and and this is something that you know, with my history, um, you know, like our first conversation was me as a one of the last things that I did as a board member for a nonprofit around the mental health support space that shall not be named. Um like cultures of care, right? This is also one of the last things that I did when I spoke at their gala around talking about how communities of care and cultures of care is part of like BIPOC cultural heritage, right? It is by design in our cultural upbringing in some ways, and and gosh, there could be well, we'll just say imperialism squashes that, yeah, just in general. That these like once you get to the concept of imperialistic dominance behavior, that is like separate from care, like dominance and care does not they they don't work together. You can't see this, obviously, but what I'm doing is I'm I'm like not like my hands are like going not going together, they're not meshing like repelling like two mag, you know that the um actually there are probably some people who would try to argue with me about that dominance and care can coexist. Um, but that is a very, very explicitly negotiated situation that we're not necessarily gonna get into here.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

No worries. All right, topic change.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

So what I explained did make sense, right? Yes. Okay. I just wanted right.

SPEAKER_04 43:28

Um, yeah, and um, yeah, because like care, um like it's about you know motivation, right? I think motivation and intention really sit in that. And I think that uh we that's really important to think about your motivation in different spaces and like what are you there for? Are you there for um your own ego? Are you there to learn something? Are you there looking for support? You know, those are yeah, that's important.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Or, and this is when you're using it for the wrong reason, are you doing it for a different reason? Like is it is it under the um are you trying to heal everybody else when you don't when you can't do it? I think that it attracts people.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

Shooting beyond your well, I mean what what is a like what yeah, shooting beyond your skills that question mark?

SPEAKER_00 44:33

No, that's not what I meant to say. What I can compare it to, and I'm not this is the only thing that comes to my head, is that people who have antisocial personality disorder, when they go to therapy, it actually makes them worse because what they do is they use therapy as a way to learn how to manipulate people. So I'm not saying that people are antisocial going to like peer groups, that's what I'm saying. But I it feels the same. Like people are going with a different intention, and it could be that they're just lost, and instead of working on that, they're taking their kind of chaos and their lost energy and spreading it out among other people, which I think does also happen.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

I think we need to have a different episode about antisocial things.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Okay, we can not today, but we can make a note.

SPEAKER_04 45:25

Making a note. I'll write that down.

Feeling Alone Then Seeing The Impact

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Yeah. I can also say though, on a positive side of it, it it has been a learning experience for me. And I've met some really great people. Uh the last couple of times I've gone. I met an amazing person this this time when I went, that we just had a really strong connection. And those are um, I think those are like the important parts of it that make it relevant. But you know, it was interesting because I had a moment where uh this is something that I I experienced because of what I do for a living. Most of my friends and I think people in my life, my family, they just kind of always assume I have my shit together. So if I need something, it's sometimes radio silence because I think they just think oh, like Matt's got it, which is partly my fault. And I was really in that when I got there, and I just kept thinking, uh, you know, God, like it's just it's a lonely place when it feels like when something's happened, I'm just kind of there. Do you know what I mean? And I happened to look at our podcast that night and just looked at the current downloads, and I saw the downloads for the month, and it was like 308, and I looked at it. Now here I am thinking nobody wants to hear me. I have nothing of value. And I'm like 308 people downloaded it, that's it. And I'm like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

I'm like, I can't part of me is like 308 in a month, lovely.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

But then it but it kind of hit me, and I'm like, wait a minute, what am I doing? Like, what kind of like like get out of my head? Like, and I realized in that moment that I was hyper-fixating on the negative and not really saying, okay, well, that 300A, that's freaking awesome. I love the fact that people are listening and that there are people out there that want to hear what we have to say. And okay, it's one person, right? That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

And it's hard to see that.

SPEAKER_04 47:16

Right. So I think I think what I have really taken from this is also like with anyways, how group it's like a group, the social dynamics of a group uh is naturally rife because we're human beings. Um and and I think that it's important to be aware, like so. If you're listening to this, I hope that you have learned things to navigate like social spaces of group dynamics in support a little bit more easily, and also maybe to give you some ideas to be someone who can contribute to the stewardship of a space. Or maybe it gives you clarity to when you might want to not enter a space, or you know, or if you want to jump in, right? All those things, green flags, yellow ones, red flags. We didn't talk about yellow ones, but that's that might be harder.

Catnip As A Social Lubricant

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Yeah, that would I'd have to think about that more. Um I think we covered a good amount though, in terms of like some red flag, green flags, and red flags. So let's okay. Oh, I was just gonna ask if you want to tell your story because I want to hear a fun cat story to end it.

SPEAKER_04 48:36

Yeah, so um I am living with uh cat uh that is my my housemate's cat, and um he is a very shy but sweet cat that has been um that really likes people but is very skittish and um is still like expanding like his comfort zone. Um, and so my housemate is on a trip, and so I'm looking out for the cat and I am like deter I am like determined to make friends with this cat at this cat's pace.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

I love your determination, love it. It's like a challenge. I appreciate that, especially with cats, love it.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

Right, like I am just like I am gonna be such good friends with you on your own terms, right? And um, so we're we're like kind of getting there, but I he is a moment where he was like eating at his food and he like looked at me and he meowed and I was like trying to you know just be clear close by, but not not too close. And then I was like, wait a minute, I looked over and there's a bag of catnip. Oh and so he had already let me pet him. Like he had already like we had already had a couple of like like more moments, but it was like kind of like not too long a little bit, and he hadn't gotten fully relaxed, and so I'm like, why why not? Let me just give this a try, right? So I like sprinkled just a tiny bit of catnip, and he comes over and he s like sniffs it a little bit, and then he like totally just flops over at his like because he's like three days out from getting any affection, and then he's used to daily some form of daily affection. Um, that's like big pets, you know, from my housemate, and so he just flops over and stretches out and just just just like and then comes over and like bonks me and flops over, and it's just completely like just embraces it. And I was like, I don't know why I haven't been actually recommending this behaviorally. It makes so much sense when you know that like you're just about to get there. Um, anyways, and it was it was funny because it the next day, you know, my housemate's back and we're all hanging out. He flops over, he flopped over for some scritches for me, and it was like, yes, it stuck.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

So I I think for all the listeners out there that have cats. I mean, we all know cat cats like catnip. What does it do to the cat?

SPEAKER_04 51:37

Catnip, social lubricant for cats, delightful. I don't know why I haven't been using it more frequently, and I was I felt very proud of myself and very victorious at having this really good snuggle moment with this cat.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

We have a lot of bobcats in my area. Would it work with a bobcat? Maybe I'm not crazy enough to try that. I was just curious.

SPEAKER_04 52:07

I will I will I will do some digging and I will see if there are some Sioux and exotic events who have done that.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Because I I used to grow it in my backyard, and actually there was a huge bush of it, and actually died one winter.

SPEAKER_04 52:23

But you know, I used to see the outdoor cats like rolling around and uh and I mean it's definitely um it not all cats respond to it like that, and I am ha I'm happy for us and the ones that do, because it is a delightful exchange.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

It really is. I love watching them, their eyes get all wide and you know hysterical. As if they're not funny enough. Well, on that light note, thank you, Erica. I appreciate that, and thank you everybody for tuning in again. And until next time.