S4 E:6 Accountability Matters When Systems Fail People

Matt opens up about a follow up to his experience with a Men's Group.  The group sent out an all user email with all of the attendees home addresses to each other.  Matt talks about why this is concerning as two things happened.  The first being that there is no valid form that was signed to authorize this to happen.  We talk about contact information would reasonable be defined as phone and email, in this type of setting.  Second, a complaint filed against someone for inappropriate behavior with the agency acknowledging a safety risk and commitment to the victim to protect would also prevent this from happening in theory.  But it didn't.  Matt talks candidly over the difficulty accepting the reality of victimization and the cultural norms of protecting the wrong people.  This leads into a conversation Erika brings up about the restrictions of feeding the hungry in Arizona and how the Phoenix is not punishing people, with the treat of prison time and fines for helping the needy.  Erika approaches this from a macro lens of how larger systems continue to oppress the population.  

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GOP Arizona Attorney General debate gets heated and ugly

ASU booted group that feeds homeless outside campus building

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Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
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Transcript

Disclaimers And Welcome Back

SPEAKER_02 0:20

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of United States of PTSD. I have my absolutely fabulous and wonderful co-host with me today, Erica, and I've missed you so much.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

I've missed you too. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. You give us energy just by like being part of whatever we're doing here.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Absolutely. And Erica and I have both been independently busy doing um fighting causes, so to speak, that we're both going to talk about. So we we talked a little bit before the episode. We're gonna start with mine, which is more of like a mesosystems issue, and then we're going to talk with um Erica about what's going on over there, which is more of a macro systems issue. And I think it's gonna highlight how systems are designed to work against the people they're supposed to be protecting. I think that's probably a good way of compartmentalizing it.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

Yeah, it's understanding being able to recognize it and then, you know, exploring how to respond to it, I think is a really important person for everyone to reflect on. And we'll we'll give you our stories here with some critiques and thoughts because you might encounter something like this, or someone you love might encounter something like this. And context and information and tools in order to approach something can make a really big difference between someone feeling completely alone versus someone feeling a little bit better with a plan.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

I think that's

Admitting Victimhood And Vulnerability

SPEAKER_04 2:10

important.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I absolutely agree with you because the the concept and the feeling of being alone can certainly be debilitating. Um, I think what's important about my story, and this is a follow-up from the last episode because so much has happened in that situation from the last episode. The the thing I struggled with in personally, and this is important as a therapist and as important as uh somebody who likes to consider myself a role model for people who were coming up in the field, is accepting the fact that I was a victim on some level was really hard for me to come to terms with. I even thought about some of the terminology I used in the last episode and the way I've been telling the narrative. And it's in a way that I think is trying to take me out of being the victim role because it in a victim role, because I just I don't want to admit it. And I think that certainly gives me even more empathy for the people I've worked with and how hard it is to actually admit that something happened that was way outside of my control that put me in a role where I was being victimized.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

Would would you call this form because like a form of intellectualizing what was happening to you?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Absolutely. Yeah, it is because you know, being vulnerable is scary. And there are certain times when we're vulnerable and it's safe and it's still really scary. So the classic example I give a lot of people is if you're watching TV and you nod off, and you're with somebody you trust, your partner, a friend, a family member, and they say, Hey, Erica, you just fell asleep, or hey Matt, you fell asleep. Instinctively, our first response is to say, No, I didn't, because it's it's a state of being vulnerable. You're not aware of where you were and what you were doing at that moment. When it's somebody that you don't trust, and when it's an institution or an organization that's failing, it's even worse. And it's very easy to give up. So that independently, that was a really that was a hard thing for me to come to terms with over the past couple of weeks, even though this has been going on for the incident itself has been going on for over a year. But because it's really come to a head, it's become more, more obvious. So to give the listeners uh an update as to what happened, last time we were talking about peer-led support groups and how sometimes that can be positive and negative. And I had to really spend a lot of time before talking today, researching what I can and can't say to make sure I don't walk into like a legal quagmire because I have to be more worried about what I say about somebody who is doing things wrong versus like me just talking about my experience. So I'm gonna keep it just in terms of experiential stuff. So um I I told everybody that the band I went to, there was a person who was acting really inappropriate towards me and what I experienced as grooming behavior, and that the person has a history of being arrested and charged with sexual offenses. And these, again, this is public information. The after the event occurred, where I came home, the president of the organization had sent me a message saying that that individual had been arrested and allegedly charged with um operating an illegal massage parlor out of their home in the guise of prostitution. So again, that's that was the arrest. It's all alleged until conviction happens, all that stuff. So um in terms of my experience, this is this creates a pattern of somebody's behavior, and it makes, you know, it just kind of highlights the reasons why I feel unsafe. So the organization, as I said last time, had given this individual strict or strict orders to not contact me, to stay away from me. Um subsequently, I think I mentioned this last time. There's a hiking group I also belong to. And since the last episode, I had RSVP'd to this a second hike, and I checked the RSVP list, and this person was not on it. And then I went and showed up, and the person showed up and tried to engage with me in conversation, and I removed myself from the conversation. So that's the second time this person has now showed up at an outside event that I've RSVP'd to, not part of that organization. And again, this none of this is egregious. So I can't, it's not reportable because it's an actual crime, but I'm

The Email That Exposed Addresses

SPEAKER_00 6:45

experiencing this as a pattern based on what you know I've seen and what I know, and just professionally what I know about behavior in general. Um so, anyway, to cut to like the part that I find egregious, is one of the people that I talked about last time, who I had this really great connection with, had messaged me and said, Can you tell me why they sent out an all-user email with our home addresses on it? And I said, You have got to be kidding me. I thought he was kidding. So, well, I mean, not really. I mean, he's not the same person who joke ran about that, but like my and my initial response is like, no freaking way that couldn't have happened, right? So I opened up the email, and sure enough, there is an all-user email with my home address on it, and it went to the person that they told me they were going to protect me from. The person that I have had this recorded history of acting inappropriately and touching me without my consent. And they said that they would protect me from it, and they instead gave him my home address. And he actually does not live that far from me. So um now to take it out of me, everybody's name's on it. Well, with the exception, I think, of like seven people. So if there were any other people who experienced this, that person also has their addresses as well. And as I said before, there had been other people who had complained about it. So now this to me is an egregious offense. This is not, this is not a minor offense. This is like egregious, right? So I contact the organization president immediately and say, What the hell just happened? Um, and his response was, I'll look into it, you know, oh my God. And then I emailed the person who sent out the list and said, I didn't authorize this. Like, what is this? The person I sent the email to responded back, sorry for the inconvenience. I'll see what I can do about it. To which I lost my flipping mind and was like, This is not an inconvenience. This is egregious. Like, this is not like you charged me $5 extra. This is like you gave my name to somebody who makes me feel incredibly unsafe that you told me that you would protect me from, you gave them my home address. Like this is beyond like a an oopsie. Um, so the president got back to me and said, Did you did you sign, did you refuse to have your information released? Which now is pivoting it to make it that it's my fault. So I said, I didn't consent to it. I don't have to decline it. I didn't consent to it. And um he said, Well, you did consent to have your contact information shared. Now, to be clear, and I think anybody who's listening to this, because I know all of our listeners are very smart, because obviously they're listening to us, right? They would, I would think anybody would argue that contact information does not equal home address. Contact information is usually defined as phone number and email address. And just to add to that, they also asked for our email address and phone number to distribute it. And we said yes to that. And there's, I actually have an email from my group where they sent out the phone numbers and the email addresses to what we consented to.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

So from my understanding, like what you have from this particular organization is phone number and email.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Phone number and email.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

As far as that is the thing that was consented.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

That's the thing that was consented.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

And they probably did some auto-clicky-clicky thing with their system not remove the address.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

I'm so I'm certain that that's what happened. I'm sorry, that's what happened.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

But the lack of accountability, the minimizing and saying it's inconvenient, it's not, it's not inconvenient. Right. That is such a slap in the face. Um, so and then the attempt to shift the blame to me, right, as an organization where they said specifically, we are going to make sure that this person does not bother you.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

So this, I mean, this also happened when they were like trying to understand, they were doing their own internal investigation. The thing that comes to mind when you see is like the ineptitude and the incompetence. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

It's completely uncompetent. Yeah, it is. And like, again, this is all my experience. My experience is that it is grossly um mismanaged. And there had been other concerns I had about the practices that they were engaging in. And this really pushed it over the edge. And this is where I said, you know what, it's beyond this now. So I requested a copy of whatever form I signed that gave them permission to release my home address to somebody that they told me they would protect me from. Um, and of course, they didn't respond. So I sent them another one this morning and said, This is my second and final request. I would like to see a copy of the form I signed that gave you consent to release my home address, to which they just sent me a screenshot of an Excel sheet that had my name on it with a little checkbox that said just um can disclose uh contact information, which is not what I asked for

Searching For Legal Recourse

SPEAKER_00 12:05

because it doesn't exist what I asked for. I never signed anything like that. So I called the Bar Association in Connecticut to find out what I can do because this to me, they have compromised my safety. And that is it's irreparable. It's not like they can they can unsend it. I thought they could, but I looked it up and you could only unsend an email on Gmail 30 seconds after you send it. If it's not within that time frame, you can't unsend it. Um so anyway, so there's not, there's like literally nothing I can do about it. So the the Bar Association basically said they were kind of not sure what to do with it. So they referred me to the Attorney General's office. And I will be calling the attorney general on Monday and filing a complaint about what happened and like how it got to this point. I think the entire thing is is unacceptable. And in my opinion, uh, well, one, I want to make sure that this never happens to anybody else again. And it has been incredibly difficult to navigate where to go. Like, I can't go to the police station because a crime actually hasn't been committed. So like I can't even really do like a report on it. You can't really get a restraining order until somebody's like physically hurt you, particularly if it's a third party type of thing and it's not family. Um, so literally, like, it's every barrier that's that's on my end, right? Like, I have to be careful about not slandering, I have to be careful about this. I I can't get a restraining order, I can't do this, I can't do that, but they can do an egregious offense that puts my safety in danger. The other action of recourse that I had, and I I had specifically told them this, is that the organization is hosted by a YMCA. And I called the YMCA and I said, this is what this organization did. And um, you know, my concern is that if they can't protect their own members, I'm not sure how they can protect the staff that work there. Because if they are fully aware that this is happening and a person is acting in a way that has caused other people to file complaints and has demonstrated a pattern of concerning behavior that they then give the home address of the victim to this person. Um and I said, so I really think from a risk management perspective, and I said, I think it borders on duty to warn. You guys have kids there, you have vulnerable people there. And if they can't protect, again, their own members, how on earth are they going to protect the people that work there? Um, I will say the YMCA was very receptive to it. And uh I think they heard my message loud and clear. And I do believe they gave pressure. Um, so the liaison called me today. I didn't return his phone call. He called me today and left me a message saying that his understanding is that I received the documentation that I requested, and he was calling because the camp had basically pressured him and he was, you know, just calling to see if I was okay and if there was anything else that could be done. Now I'm going to again state this. They did not give me what I asked for. I asked for a signed consent form where I authorized them to disclose the information which they did not provide me.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Or they should have the electronic interface in which somebody clicked those things.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 15:25

Or the documentation of the paper thing that they put in front of each person to put you know a check by.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yeah. I would agree with you. But again, it doesn't, it doesn't exist. I mean, I think it I'm fairly confident it says or like contact information. But again, no reasonable person would assume contact information means home address. Well, and yes. And I mean, even if like let's say legally that that's too gray, and they would say, well, contact information isn't defined, even though I think it's the other way around. But let's just say that that's the case, right? The fact that I still went to them and said, This person makes me uncomfortable, this person has touched me inappropriately, this person has done all of these behaviors, and they said to me, We will protect you from him. He cannot speak to you, he cannot contact you. Oh, by the way, here's Matt's here's Matt's home address.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

He should not have been included on the list of people who received extra creation.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Exactly. So again, to me, it's egregious, but the entire system is designed to protect that organization.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

And that's that's the problem. And you know, what's interesting is the reason why they wouldn't address it when I asked them to address it is because they were afraid of getting sued. They were like, well, we're we're afraid of getting sued if we if we ask this person, if we say to this person, there's been complaints against you, you can't come here anymore. So it's interesting, they don't seem to have any fear about disclosing my information without consent.

Organizational Negligence And Risk Management

SPEAKER_04 17:01

So if if you are a person who is in a position of leadership within an organization, understanding how to respond appropriately to these types of things is really important. I can't um risk assessment. So for example, like I am part of community organizations that focus on um safety, right, in organizing spaces. The number of organizations that don't actually adequately prepare or critically assess the things that they're doing in a harm reduction model is kind of ridiculous. Um, so if you're in a leadership position, I think that trying to have these types of conversations within the organizations you're in is a can make a huge difference. And if you are part of an organization as a member, asking these types of questions is important as well because um usually it is a large blind spot.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. And it is and I also to add to that, Erica, if anybody out there that's listening has any sort of like knowledge or expertise on what to do with this information, feel free to email me any suggestions because I would highly appreciate that since it seems to be just like one roadblock after the other.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Um and you know, I think the this is a fact. It's not, I'm certainly not making excuses. It's volunteer run. And I think because it's volunteer run, it's a little sloppy in terms of what they're doing. Um, and I I will add this that I am not the type of person, and anybody who knows me knows this is true, to just complain. Like as I've been as I've been identifying problems along the way, I have gone to the the people who run it and have said, I certainly will be part of the solution. Here are the things that we need to fix. Um, I will give you another example. One of the things that I saw that was egregious is that a person who is running the group, and again, these groups are they're peer groups, right? So was a therapist who had a client in his own group who identified the person was a client, which is a violation of HIPAA, it's all sorts of stuff. And I brought that to the organization and said therapists should not have their clients in group as a peer-run group where they're a member of it. I don't think I should have to explain this. Um, and you know, they heard that, and I think they're attempting to fix it. So they certainly have made some like changes, but this to me is a whole you can't undo this. This is like they took the genie out of the bottle and they blew it up. Um, you can't you can't undo that. There's no repairing this in terms of like my personal safety. The only thing they can do, which I would think would be the the the least amount of correction, would be to make sure that they have policies and protocols in place that this never happens again. And I hope that the other people on the list, if they're in the same position, can advocate for themselves as much as I can.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

So there are a couple of things that I'd like to, you know, both like reflect back and ask. So number one, the thing that and and from the component of like for listeners, right? Um, number one, um what you have done also in the name of trying to protect other people that you don't even know, and future people like that is an incredible thing. And so for anyone listening who has ever leaned into discomfort and calling for accountability or doing something um at the behest of people in the future, thank you. That is a really, really vulnerable thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And it's scary. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, it's really scary. If I mean this is like if you saw the documentation I have for like all of the things that have happened and like all of the emails, it's terrifying. And and I'm not saying that this is the case, this is just hypothetical, right? Sick things can sometimes run deep, you know. And I've known people, and again, I'm not saying this about this organization, I'm just saying this in general. I know people who have been caught up in things where it was like some sort of sex trafficking thing, and it turned out that they that they were going to report it, and their lives ended up being in danger because it was much deeper than they thought. The people that they were talking to about it were actually part of it, too. So I I mean, nobody ever knows how how deep these things run. Um, so it is scary. And, you know, I certainly wouldn't blame anybody who couldn't do it because of, you know, safety reasons or or um like they're worried about their family or whatever. Right. I totally get it. And it's hard. It's hard to like accept that I can't control it.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

So what are some things that you have been doing? Like you have professional experience that sometimes helps you navigate personal. Um I don't even know what to call the situation. Like, um, and and I guess the question would be, what are things that you've been taking action steps, right? Sometimes that can be powerful. Are there other things that that have been helpful to you in this time?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah, I've actually been I've consulted a lot of people about it because I am I can be very passionate and when I get stuck on like when I'm when I'm fixated on something, I don't always think. You know, I'm just like raw, you know.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Fury, fury is uh uh important tool sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Uh I could be like the three furies whooping, right? So so you know, a lot of the stuff I wrote, I wrote it, but I didn't send it. So I would write it, and then I would go back like a couple hours later and I'd be like, all right, let me reread that. And then I'd be like, okay, that doesn't sound good. Let me let me correct that. And then, you know, I reached out to quite a few people about this. This I've talked to probably about, I don't know, six or seven people about it in different professions. You know, I've talked to somebody with legal experience, I've talked to, you know, other people who work in the field as therapists, I've talked to just some people who were there, um, just to kind of see what you know what the options are. But because it's such an area of gray, there's not so many of those, right? Because they we'd like to have areas of gray that protect people who do things wrong. Look at our whole government, right? Like I mean, our government wouldn't function if we didn't protect criminals.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

Power dynamics. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a real thing. And systems being broken. So I think before but before okay, is there is there anything else that you want to release into this space?

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Not that I can think of right now. I think the uh, you know, the biggest things is uh I if anybody else is experiencing this, seriously, like I I feel for you, and you're obviously not alone. So even if you wanted to reach out to me through like an email, I would be happy with that. Um it it it's scary, right? Like it's really scary to be vulnerable. And I think that people need to hear that that's okay. Um and I do think that organizations need to be held accountable, and I am going to do my best to make sure this never happens again. And I can promise everybody that that I will do that. I don't know if I'll be successful, but I'm gonna do everything I can.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

So um I think when we like one thing I for our like transition component to some of the other things that we want to talk about today.

Phoenix Bans Mutual Aid In Parks

SPEAKER_04 25:29

So in this theme of when you run into the fact that systems are not necessarily designed to help or protect people, um, and that sometimes people um are not making decisions based with like time and critical feedback. So something that I've been navigating here in Phoenix is that the city just passed an ordinance that makes it illegal to give anyone you are not related to or like uh at the park with um food or medical aid. And um they've made it so only uh you that in order to distribute any sort of food or um like medical aid, um that you have to have um you have to apply for a permit, and you only they're only providing two permits per month.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Um in two permits to one in like two permits per park.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

Per park. Per individual for um, yeah, so it's basically like only two organization, so they'll only have two permits per month available per park. And they have a list of parks where this is going to be possible. Um, and um yeah, so they their reasoning where they say that this is because um there are needles in the parks. But this is this is part of what we've seen in this larger movement since the Supreme Court ruling. Um, I can't remember it off the top of my head, but that basically is criminalizing being unhoused.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Um I can look it up and see if I can find it.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

Yeah, so this was uh I think it was a town in Oregon that put this through. Um, but basically, uh originally this was supposed to be just around medical care um and targeting needle exchange programs, um which um are really important for reducing like as it's like a public health issue. But what what we're navigating right now is that um instead of trying to address um poverty, um lack of housing, um uh lack of medical and mental health support and care access, um, that human beings and the care that human beings can give each other in a mutual aid way is is getting harder and harder to actually achieve. So this has been a larger systemic process. And when we talk about railing against things, you know, um, when they made it illegal for um people to camp and sleep outside uh in towns, um, that cities could pass these kinds of ordinances, what we have is a continual pushing of people who are unsheltered into um further and further out of sight, um, basically. And a lot of these um things that are happening are going to contribute to more and more people in in the context of Phoenix in Arizona, um, to more and people, more people dying, pretty much. Right.

unknown 29:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I can I uh like I'm trying to wrap my brain around this because it's so just unfathomable on so many levels. What does needles in the park have to do with giving people food?

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Uh it doesn't. Okay. Originally they added it. So they added it to originally it was a medical thing, targeting, and then they added food distribution. Um, some of the reasons why is they say that um distributing food in parks attracts um what we call the the unsavory, dangerous, unsheltered people that then, you know, hang out there uh in order and and and and increase crime in the area. Right. So that basically it is um this continual

Othering, Fear, And Power Systems

SPEAKER_04 30:21

methodology that is utilized to um propagate fear towards um vulnerable populations. So this can be towards people who are unsheltered, this is can be towards immigrants, towards trans people. It's it's basically uh the continuous strategy of um making us fear um people rather than critique the fact that our state and the gut like the larger governance system um is not interested in actually providing services for human beings, right? We are all one step away. Like each person doesn't matter, some of the people that I have met who are unsheltered, it's due to medical debt. They maybe had an interaction with the with the police that involved them being unfairly profiled and put into prison. And there are you can't necessarily get yourself out if you don't have enough funds to put up towards bail or to to find a lawyer. So there are people, plenty of people who we are we have long, long been in this um system, uh carceral system, in which it is profitable to keep people in prison. And um it is very difficult to get out of prison if you are poor.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yeah. It's the legal slavery.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

Yes. I mean that's what it's a it's a legal system of slavery.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

We've just changed how we do slavery, but we still certainly do it. Right. We know when you were talking, I so you said it's an ordinance, right?

SPEAKER_04 32:17

It's a city ordinance for the city of Phoenix. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Can this but the state, the state, if there's a state law, can override the ordinance, correct?

SPEAKER_04 32:25

Uh possibly. Um, but the the thing that is concerning, dear listeners, is the fact that all of these individual systems that can happen at the local level then become used as a model copy, you know, copy-paste, right? And we see this also with um, like, for example, the methodologies that like these large-scale data centers that are focused on um increasing the surveillance state, you know, like on us all.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Um the occupied country we live in, you mean?

SPEAKER_04 33:02

Yeah, the the the the methodology of state control, right, is because it's the the incentive is um all of these things, all of these systems that they care about are for the Epstein class, right? Like the people who are so rich that they don't want to have to answer to anything, right? Or anyone. And um, these methodologies of undermining our ability to take care of each other as people, um, for the working class, for the middle class, for you know, anyone who doesn't have the power to buy a political official. Um so yeah, so these are things that we're we're talking about, both, you know, your experience and and my experience as a you know person living in Phoenix, um, and in Arizona, a state where um a lot of these attempts to fight data centers have been, you know, very public. And then then it's just spread all over the country, right? We we're hearing about it everywhere. Um this concept of how do we change systems on a local level, on an individual level, like you you were like on the macro level, like how how do we keep our sanity when it seems like we're always having to fight cruelty? I I don't even know, uh you know, uh, and a lack of courage, right, to take a stand for um living things.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Well you would talked about othering, right? And that's that's part of the whole thing, like you other people, and then you don't they don't exist, you don't care what happens to them. We have as a society have become far too comfortable with doing that. And I I think historically, right? Like, I mean, these are not cruelties that are new. I mean, we just keep recycling them over and over and over again. Um it does, I can't I get it, it feels futile. Like, I I totally get it. You know, when you were talking about the data centers, like we talked earlier about Utah, it was Utah, right? Yeah, and how the constituents didn't want it, but the repres the people the people who were their representatives voted for it anyway, right? Because they don't represent the people. And I I know I've said this on many episodes, and I'm gonna say it again. I think one of the things we have to do is if they're in office now, vote them out. Yeah. Like, I don't care what side they're on, because first of all, I don't believe there's two sides. I've stopped believing that a while ago, but vote them out. There's no reason why somebody should be in office for 22 years. Vote them out.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Like we need new people who are not gonna be bought out by an occupying state or like the Epstein class to do stuff that it only serves the 1% of the population. Like we have to stop doing that.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Yeah. So I think that if and I think in in this situation, right, the way that I had been getting through. So I like I had the opportunity, I spoke at the city council meeting in which it was passed, where I emphasized the fact that a lot of these individuals who have companion animals, they go to parks for shade, right, because it's often one of the few places where there is shade. Right. And um one thing that was brought up was the fact that we have 10,000, estimated 10,000 unsheltered people in Maricopa County, the majority in Phoenix, and 1600 beds available.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Oh my god. Wow. Right. So where were they supposed to go? Number one. They don't have anywhere to go.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Yeah, and so, you know, I think that um one of the the things that we have to reckon with is the fact that there is not going to be a change in the number of people who are experiencing housing insecurity and food insecurity, it is going to increase. So if you are a person who's like, I feel powerless, and I often do, right? And in these situations, sometimes getting connected to people who both understand and taking some form of action, even though it might not work. I mean, this is the thing that I tell a lot of young organizers that I work with the inability to break through, the inability to reach these individuals in positions of power. Um, if you don't, that's not on you. Right. That's not your failing. That's not your failing to internalize. Understand that you have just done a step to train yourself. You have tested different options, you have learned things. So, in this process of what you are going through, you have had conversations with the attorney general, right? The attorney general in your area is gonna know your name. Right. And you are going to have a personal conversation with that person. And you are going to break through in the things that you will feel comfortable reaching out because these people, these are just regular people. They're just regular people. All of our politicians, all of our leadership, even though they think they might think that they are somehow, you know, infallible or whatever, they're not. They're not. And they should, in their positions of power, be accustomed to critique or questions or things from the people that pay for their salaries via the taxes right that they take out of our pockets from feeding our families.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

There were two awesome things you said that I want to highlight. One of the one it was the last one you said, right, about the that they're just people too, and that one percent were the the people who are in positions like that. I do think sometimes they think that they're they're not immortal, but they're untouchable because you know, you look at diplomatic immunity or things like that, right? People can do things where they're untouchable. But if we look at history, history will tell us time and time again, those people who think they're untouchable end up usually going out the same way, right? Which is, you know, they're not untouchable. It is reproved that over and over and over again when they've wiped out royal families for you know for doing stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Um, the other thing I want to say, which is so critical, you know, when I think of for those of you who don't know Erica personally, right? Um, when I think of you, Erica, I think, I mean, you're such a like a champion of social justice. Like you are exceptional when it comes to going out there in the community and you know, doing this kind of macro work and getting people together and organizing. I mean, that is like your forte and your expertise, and you're so good at it. So when I hear you say, sometimes I am, you know, sometimes I feel you I forget the word you said. You didn't say give up. Sometimes I feel like helpless. That's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Yeah, helpless, powerless.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

I want everybody to hear that, even somebody as awesome as you, Erica, somebody who No, I'm serious, but can feel that way. So like I want other people to know that. Just like in terms of, you know, I I I like to believe that I'm very good clinically in the stuff I do. And to to say, like, yeah, I feel helpless, right? Like, I the I I think it's important for people who have skill sets to talk about that stuff so other people can say, oh wait, they feel that way. So I do too.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

It's normal, right? It's normal. Like every, you know, and and it's the thing that I also tell like young, young veterinarians, young veterinary students, right? Is that like this is something for me as far as that's part of like being human, right? To question yourself, to feel small, to feel unsure, to feel, to feel afraid. Right. And that is normal. Being courageous whenever you have the strength to do so means taking steps. And also sometimes you can ask for help. Right. And so um, you know, in this the city ordinance, like there are people that I know that are tremendous organizers, and I I, you know, what you see in me is is a reflection of also like countless, you know, teachers, friends, um, other other people that I've listened to say, like, sometimes we don't get the outcome that we're looking for. And for me, as long as you're part of the process is saying, okay, back to the drawing board, right? And the more people that you can pull in as a community to build a response, the better something can be, the the more holes that you can find. Um uh, and in some ways, right, a lot of the other organizers that I was working, you know, up to this point where we knew we knew that the city council was gonna vote it in anyway. And it is saying, okay, now how do we work around it? Right. We already have people who are figuring out ways to both, you know, within the parameters and also a little rebelliousness to take care of people, right? And to learn, right? So many people learned about how how can we engage more in the places where we live. Um, and so in some ways I say if you're feeling hopeless or overwhelmed, start out with thinking about land, shelter, food, and see what's happening in your local area and see what's happening because you can have a huge impact um just by giving someone in your area. Little bit of care. And that little bit, even though it feels small, it's actually really powerful. Every interaction that we have with each other, uplifting each other, is how we start increasing the frequency that we do that and spreading that out because this what we have ahead of us, it requires people power, right? No individual. This is not the American individualistic saviorism thing. Like no one is coming to save us. We are here to save each other. And from those individual things where you are or yeah. So, anyways, that's my my soap pots. It's always coming together, reaching out, checking in on each other and being brave when we can. And, you know, when we fall down, when we feel like we've gotten a dust up or are running into a new wall, to take a moment to take a breath and reach into a support network and try again.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

And bravery comes in many forms. It doesn't have to be something over the top, it could be something really small. And it reminds me of you know that starfish story. Do you know that story? That's what it reminds me of of the for those of you that don't know, that the story is this little kid's, he's all these beach starfish and he's throwing them in the ocean. And his grandfather says to him, You're never gonna save all of them, it doesn't matter. And he says it mattered to that to that one.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

And you know, I that's really what you're highlighting is that if help as many people as you can. When you were when you were talking about the park, I couldn't help because I wanted to see the comparison. So it looks like if you get caught doing this, it's considered a class one misdemeanor, and it can result in a $2,000 fine and up to six months in prison. And this is for the danger of like needles, right? That's their that's their the guise of this.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

For justification, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

So I thought, oh, well, what about uh feeding birds in parks, right? Because as we've talked about with like bird flu and all that other stuff. So I'm like, oh, what's the legality for feeding wildlife in the park? And it turns out that there's an ordinance about it, but it's not banned statewide, and it's considered a petty offense to feed you know the animals in the area. So it's just you know, comparing the two things, right?

Local Action Steps And Food Resistance

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Like that's just it's really interesting. Um, so what could if people are in Arizona listening, like who could they contact, or like what could they do to express their discomfort, like they're being upset about it?

SPEAKER_04 46:46

Um number one, if you are not in Phoenix, in the city of Phoenix, so there's there's a whole slew. This is happening in Tempe. There are things that potentially are coming up in Mesa, and I think it's figuring out your local city, paying attention to what's happening in your local city council, because this is where a lot of stuff happens. So um if you are overwhelmed with what's happening on a national scale, I would recommend putting out some feelers to what's happening in your city council, like what's on your city council um space and um local school, like if you're a parent, like the school, what's going on at the school level? Because those are two very, very important places that individual action can have a huge thing. So um, so I think that's one. Um, where people are trying to work around these things is trying to work with private spaces, um, trying to figure out like mobile options, you can support organizations um that uh are doing this types of grassroots work. Um, because that's really important. Some some of this is called kind of direct action work is where participating with organizations and supporting organizations that are directly working with um vulnerable communities, ones that are led by people um from vulnerable communities, and educating other people that you're connected to. So if you can get um your, you know, people that you're friends with to be able to go to city council meetings, and this is a thing that you start learning more about when you're paying attention to how local governance works, is that some of these things are inaccessible to people, right? Um but by by starting to get engaged, because one of the things that has come up again and again and again is that they need to hear the volume of discontent, dissent, and disagreement with their choices. Um and those are things that people can get done through request to speak um programs and for getting to know your um local, you know, state attorney, um, getting to know, knowing who your local city council member is and your state representative. And you can go to their offices. There are times where you can go, you can send them emails. Um personally, I struggle a little bit with some of those things, but I'm very interested in getting introducing myself to them face to face at certain points. And there are ways where you can do that. So um through some of this, I've I've um met, you know, some of the city council members, city council member Hernandez, um, who did put together a press conference and working with our team. So you can, you can, these are people and you can meet them and you can influence them if you have the space and time. I recognize that I have the privilege of having some extra bandwidth available to dedicate to this type of thing. Um, and I recognize how inaccessible it is for so many people who are having to work their work, you know, more than one job, you know, to make ends meet. Um, so if you are someone that has the privilege of having a more flexible um job, you taking that on is gonna make a really big difference for the people who can't.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

I think those things go hand in hand too, right? That's all by design. So if you the sure they're available, but they want to also be available to the people they want available. Right. And that's why if you are in a position of privilege to use it, because so many people can't. And I again I think that that's all part of the system, right? Erica, I have just for time, I wanted to ask you something because I another article popped up when I was looking up that article about um the uh what they were doing in the parks. Yeah, it's it says ASU booted a group that feeds the homeless outside of a campus building. Did you see that?

SPEAKER_04 51:16

Yeah, yeah, food. My community garden. Now we yeah, community. So where I'm my role is uh I I used to go to the actual events, but what I'm doing right now is I'm working and trying to get community gardens to get uh working with community gardens to try and see if we can get those foods and produce into more of these distribution systems. Um, and so I usually uh there's a garden that I work with that the things that we harvest basically go into the mutual aid fridges and um into these groups' hands who then cook them and distribute them so people can get local um nutritious food. And it's also keeping our nutrients that we're growing from the soil, our nutrients in our water, like in our local food system, um, which is really important because um otherwise, you know, a lot of Arizona, we actually end up exporting a lot of our water and nutrients um internationally. So it's you know, these are these are things that are important. Um, but yeah, so Food Not Bombs is an organization um that uh does food distribution um in our area. They had been doing food distribution at on um near a park that ASU had uh a space and they have been doing it for about eight years without issue. So they come, they set up, you know, clean everything up and also make like create make the space better, you know, after they leave it. Um and uh they were recently emailed and said that they have to stop. So um, yeah. I um they are like uh they are going to find another way, right? We are gonna find another way to make sure that people as many people as possible get nourished. Um and um yeah, I think I I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think 40,000 people in Arizona have lost SNAP benefits. Wow. Mm-hmm. I actually might be that might be a gross understatement. So we'd have to cross-check it. Don't hold me to that number. But it's a lot, it's a lot. Um, and so I think that it is time. Like this is something that I've been passionate about a long time as a veterinarian, as someone who cares about food access and food sovereignty, because I grew up with stories of starvation um after World War II, because that was a big thing, right? And under any circumstances, right, food, shelter and food are are very, very important. So I think that if you are someone who's like, I need to do something that makes a difference, if you do something about food access and understanding your local food system, that is something that is going to be critical and essential in the next in from now, um, over the next, you know, five to ten years. Because um our food systems that are focused on a large commercial scale are not necessarily going to be successful and functional on the timescale that we need them to. So people becoming educated in how to grow food, like the victory gardens around World War II. I think like that's gonna be really important.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Yeah, I agree. And it highlights that resistance can be lots of different things. Food is resistance, and that's you know, that's safer for a lot of people to do food than it is maybe to go to a rally or something, right? So resistance can be in all different forms as long as you're doing something, right?

SPEAKER_04 55:38

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really it can it brings me a lot of comfort when I'm feeling powerless um to know that something as straightforward as food and focusing around food like that is a core component of resistance um and communities all over the world. The radical acts of feeding people and ensuring that people around you don't go hungry. Um that's been one of the longstanding things. Um, and if you do that kind of stuff, you're you're connected to a very long story in that way. And that's something that gives me some comfort. So I hope

Final Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_04 56:30

I hope that some of the listeners um will derive some comfort from that as well.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Thank you, Erica. And thank you, everybody, for listening. We've covered some really intense stuff today. Um, and I I I but I think what we gave to the listeners, I hope is really valuable because I think we both talked about vulnerability and what it feels like to really be overwhelmed and feel powerless. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

And that's gonna be a it's gonna be a theme. We've covered it before. Yeah, right? We're coming and we're gonna cover it again. Yes, I think.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

So thank you everybody for tuning in for another episode. And again, I would apologize for the delay. Um stay tuned for more. Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Bye.