S4 E: 7 When Poverty Becomes A Crime

Erika gives and update on what is happening on the ground in Phoenix, where extreme heat makes shade and hydration a matter of life and death, and where the gap between need and available shelter beds turns “public order” policies into survival crises. We also unpack how mutual aid gets targeted, why lawsuits matter, and what it means when a city’s response leans on policing instead of housing.  

We then explore another stated where criminalization of homelessness as a pipeline into the carceral system. Louisiana’s House Bill 211 becomes a stark example, with escalating fines, the threat of prison time, and the possibility of forced labor for being unhoused. We also dig into how definitions of homelessness get narrowed to shrink the numbers on paper while real people lose access to services. From property seizures during sweeps to the economics of private prisons and ICE detention, we connect policy choices to incentives, profits, and human rights.

We then look at why so few people have the moral courage and professional responsibility, especially in veterinary medicine through a One Health lens that links human, animal, and environmental wellbeing. We share what it’s like trying to advocate for colleagues and veterinary students in Gaza, what “leadership” looks like when organizations stay quiet, and why sustained activism matters, including lessons from the documentary How to Survive a Plague. If this hit a nerve, subscribe, share the episode, and leave a review so more people can find the show and join the conversation.

We talk briefly about what racism and privilege looks like in connection with the World Cup

Finally we would like to thank Sammy Obeid for being such a brilliant comedian and educator.  

Scotland Fans Donate Nearly $30K to Providence Charities amid World Cup Group Stage

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Thousands Scotland Supporters March in Providence, RI ⚽️

Texas Screwworm Resource Website | New World Screwworm Resources

Shows | Sammy Obeid

Thousands Could Be Forced Into Unpaid Labor in Louisiana Under New Bill - Newsweek

2nd lawsuit filed against Phoenix's new ordinance on homeless services in parks

https://animalwag.org/

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/460a/9d62bcdfe3564a67a7b2c87bd7b41c9196aa.pdf

https://truthout.org/articles/social-work-institutions-have-remained-silent-on-palestine-that-must-end/

#endgenocide #homelessness #systemfail #sammyobeid #worldcup 

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4

Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae. 


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.  


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com 

Transcript

Grounding Through Systemic Conversations

SPEAKER_00 0:20

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I'm here with the fabulous Erica as always. Hello. And I do want to apologize, Erica, and I've been both super busy. So we haven't put out an episode in a little while. But I want to also thank all the uh listeners because we have some pretty dedicated listeners across the world. We have some in Germany, we've got one in Singapore. We've got like people that are just listening all the time, which it just blows my mind that we're making that much of an impact. So thank you to all the people who are out there listening. I really Eric and I appreciate it so much because this is a passion of ours, and we certainly don't make money from it. So it's just it's something we're doing to like help raise awareness. And I just I'm blown away with all the support. So thank you all so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Um yeah, it also it feels like um it feels like we are talking to like-minded people to be able to express ourselves about these things that we care about and to know that there are things that other people care about too is incredibly meaningful. So today we're gonna talk about things that we care about that have been impacting us pretty deeply. So it is gonna be a little bit more of we'll say maybe a personal, personally intimate conversation about systemic issues. And I think we're all impacted by that right now. And we'll just talk. This is like one way that we get to stay grounded. And so thank you for being part of that.

Phoenix Heat And Housing Shortage

SPEAKER_03 2:05

And we are gonna start off with an update just on our individual scenario. So, Erica, you're gonna give an update about the situation in Arizona. Yeah. I don't have a huge update about what happened at that um that that uh retreat I went to, but I'll give you what I do have, and then we'll we'll kick off from keep on going from there.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Okay, so um to remind people, we are talking about the targeting of the unhoused population. So now it's difficult to say like what percent of human beings are like one incident away from not having a roof over their heads. We have families impacted by this. There are people who are impacted by um ICE um kidnappings of family members. Um, and even when people are like have legal status and are detained longer, not that any of it is justified. Um, there can be both children and other family members who are U.S. citizens who can be impacted deeply by that. So can be like someone who is the main job that is providing housing stability for a family. So these are things, you know, we have people who lose their housing stability due to medical debt, any number of reasons. And so in Phoenix, um, we have a I think it was around, gosh, I can't we we mentioned this the previous episode as far as a precise precise number, but maybe roughly 16,000 people facing housing instability or who are regularly unsheltered, and only 1,500 beds in the um direct resources of the city. And and this larger number is like the county numbers. However, the majority of those people are in the main city metro area.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

And I'm not I'm not a math person, you know, I hate math, but what I can tell is that that doesn't even come close to grossly insufficient of like not, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

And um, so not only that, um, you know, we also live in an environment where it is like deadly to be um without shelter um and the like environmental cooling and thermoregulation. Um, hydration is very important, and there are all sorts of health consequences from heat exposures. Um, and that is something that unifies all of people within the Phoenix metro area, not just people who are unsheltered.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

And that's why we you had brought up on the last episode when we were talking about what they're doing with parks, the importance of having people access. Parks is for shade. For shade and be out of that horrible heat.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Correct, correct. Um and uh so you know, some interesting things. Like they have been just like watering the I live across the street from a park. They've been watering it with um uh sprinkler systems every day. It's it's it's it's quite pretty. I mean, we could probably have conversations about resource allocation and the reasons why. Yeah, it's very like whole things that I'm getting into with local politics, which I have definitely not participated in at the level because I've been a bit of a nomad. But yeah, this is the place where I am deciding to learn how to organize. And I learned recently that um there are jokes among Phoenix organizing community, is that Arizona is where organizers come to from all over the country and they get chewed up and spit out, and they go to where they can find AC or another city. So that is something that I have learned um from you know some of the Phoenix uh people who've grown up and lived in Phoenix all of their lives and um who deeply love like the land and the places here. And I'm learning a lot. And so part of it is around the unsheltered

Criminalizing Sleeping Outside Nationwide

SPEAKER_01 6:02

thing. So that's a long way to talk about or introduce the fact that um since I think was it like a year ago, maybe less than that, where there was a Supreme Court ruling that basically said it was between uh a it's an or a city in Oregon that basically wanted to make it illegal to be sleeping outside.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

I'm gonna look that up while you're talking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Um and there was dissent from the progressive uh judici judges, which has been demonstrated to be true, which is basically like we are criminalizing um being unhoused. And this set off a whole series of events that has resulted in increased targeting of unsheltered populations within like basically all over the country. And we know that this is a really complicated issue. There are a lot of different methodologies from intervention. We have all sorts of different political philosophy and ideological differences of like what are human rights and et cetera. But one of the things that we have been getting to as far as an ever ratcheting, you know, towards, I don't know, like an absence of human compassion, like the the pinnacle capitalism, is where there becomes a point in time where we have quote unquote excess humanity that does not have perceived value by um, you know, this this system of production that we live under. And so um the way that it gets made or money gets made in the business of turning human bodies into um dollar-producing machines by the carceral system or the prison system, right? And so this is done in several ways. There's institutionalization, there's um there's um the the prison system itself, the carceral system in general, um, and there is the um the immigration detention carceral system, um, all of which have been evolving. Several, I've been probably following this sort of thing as far as the privatization, or I mean, it's all there's always been money involved with keeping people in chains, right? It's it's our system of slavery, or one of the systems that we have of where slavery has continued.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

Um and you could argue it's never stopped.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yes, it hasn't, right? It is basically forms, uh yes, a method for um any like different forms of labor in which humans are like um, you know, it there's a really great example of this when we talk about, like, for example, like the sugar cane industry, where you know, it was more profitable for them to not to care whether or not people would die or get their our arms and limbs like chewed up by these machines that process sugar cane, um, rather than to have the system stop like for a period of time. Like you see this in like up Upton Sinclair's like talking about the um the livestock slaughtering industry and and meatpacking plants at certain periods of time. Same thing with mining, right? Every every system across the world of extraction or production of a product has this variable relationship with the safety of human beings. And this extends to how we view the value of a human life in general and how people who are unsheltered are treated.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Um and Eric, only because I know we have lots of things to talk about. For this, I just wanted to do the update because we we covered a lot of it in the sense.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

So in terms of so update, there's legal things going on.

Mutual Aid Lawsuits And Police Sweeps

SPEAKER_01 9:54

We have a religious Orthodox church that has filed suit that this is against the city, that this is a religious issue. Um, so within the First Amendment, right? We also you don't have to be religious in order to protect a right to assembly and and and engage in mutual aid care. They just choose to only protect the First Amendment as it comes to religious institutions in this type of giving community care. So they were doing that for an exclusive one now. Circle of the City and another organization have also filed suit. Um, there are people who are, you know, running around doing direct action anyway and trying to strategize around it. Groups that are trying to work within that framework of trying to get um spun up as far as distributing food in parks. Um and also, um I think right now, unfortunately, we we I I already said this to you. Um, the Phoenix Police or PD are increasing their efforts on sweeping and putting unhoused people into the carceral system. And you have a follow-up from somewhere else in the country because they like to spread these strategies out state by state.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Yes. So

Louisiana Bill Targets Homeless With Labor

SPEAKER_03 11:05

I want to give credit to one of my students in class, too, because they're the person who actually brought this to my attention because I had not heard of it. But Louisiana is um passing, well, they've they've passed one part of this. They still have to pass the Senate, House Bill 211, which and I'll I'll actually put the link from Newsweek. There's an article about this that came out April 28th, 2026, where it is making it now they can criminalize homelessness and put them into forced labor situations. And there's penalties that come with it. The first penalty, I believe, is I gotta see if I can find it now. It was, I think $500. The second penalty was $1,000 because, of course, if people are unhoused, they are just rolling around with money that they could just pay these fines on, right? So yeah, the first fine is $500, the second fine is $1,000, and it can carry up to two years in prison. And the potential for unpaid forced labor. So we are putting people who don't have houses into forced labor camps for being unhoused in another state. And I'm sure if we were to look at every state systematically, there's probably some law or regulation in every state that does something similar to it in different ways. Because as you said, I think they're spreading it across the country and testing it in different areas to see how it to see how it goes, because that's what they do with everything.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

I also Louisiana, Texas, I mean, apparently Phoenix, Arizona, as a city.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

And I think Louisiana, I I believe if I'm if I'm correct, Louisiana is also the only state in the country that goes by parish law. So I think that also creates a different dynamic just in in that state. Something else I wanted to add that's important, and I I did know this, but it was reminded to me by again one of the students in class that they also do things to limit the definition of homeless. So, for example, if somebody is couch surfing night to night, and this may be different state to state, this is what it is in Rhode Island. So if somebody is couch surfing, they're actually not considered unhoused because they have somewhere to sleep. If somebody is in a residential treatment program, but they don't have housing when they get out, they're also not considered unhoused because they're currently living in treatment. So there's all sorts of ways they limit the availability and access to resources in our community. So I would imagine it's very similar in other communities across the country. And you know, I think what I've experienced is there's this sense of not in my backyard, number one. So everybody would agree it's a problem, but nobody wants built shelters in their backyard or have them anywhere near them. And there's this out-of-sight, out of mind type of stuff. We had talked a little bit about when we were talking about the carceral

Profiting From Detention And Rights Violations

SPEAKER_03 14:00

system. I had another group in my class talk about um solitary confinement. And what just blows my mind about that is first of all, it doesn't work. We know it actually makes people worse. There's plenty of documentation on that, but it just violates it violates the fourth, the fourth amendment, right? No, not the fourth.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

I'm sorry, is it the fourth?

SPEAKER_03 14:21

It violates two of them. I think it's the fourth and the eighth.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

I think that I would shoot. This would be this is a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

You have to double check that the review. Pretty sure it's the fourth and the eighth.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Well, the fourth amendment is the protection from unreason unreasonable uh searches and seizures. And this this applies to unhoused population when they seize their belongings. They're they like seize and throw away their belongings, which is basically what all of these encampment things go. They throw out people's documents, right? They throw out people's identification, like like they just toss everyone. And there have been multiple police departments that have found to be violating the human rights of uh uncheltered people.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Absolutely. It was the it was the eighth and tenth. The eighth is the right um unjust punishment.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, and and and and torture.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Yeah, and torture.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Because uh there are plenty of reports of that happening in ICE. Um, yes, and so these things feed into like the carceral institutions in which they are planning to put people who are unsheltered, um, as well as the ones that they put other people who are charged with, you know, in prison. Like we have multiple different systems of prisons and places where people are deprived of freedom. Right. And each are kind of treated a little bit differently, but very frequently what they are done is they are paid for by citizen tax dollars to private corporations, which have no vested interest or who their goal is to increase their profits for private, like for private like games, right? So, so um people, for example, in ICE detention have to pay lots of money to even get a phone call. I think something something like a 10-minute phone call is over $50. Right. So to be able to speak to someone, to be able to speak to their lawyers at times, they're restricting people from being able to speak to their lawyers, they're deprived, they're putting people under under um solitary isolation conditions, they are keeping them very, very cool, they are denying them medical care, they are not providing like you know, people are dying from medical neglect. Right, and we are doing this to make money hand over fist for very, very corrupt people in suits, and that's why we can't have nice things like healthcare and education and infrastructure and so many things. And you know what? Those super wealthy people who are getting to make profits hand over fifths over this, they don't have to worry about any of the stuff that we have to worry about. They are so far removed, they don't give a shit if the infrastructure is broken, they don't give a shit if we don't have healthcare, they have their own private stuff.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

It's an entirely different world.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

That's true. And for the people who um maybe are not connected to somebody who's in prison, what Eric is saying actually infects all of us because they do this to all of us in different ways. This is just the most egregious and most obvious of that, and my correction, I was wrong. It wasn't the 10th, it's the 14th. So it's the eighth, the fourteenth, the fifth, and the sixth that are violated. The eighth is cruel and unusual punishment, the fifth is lack of due process, the fourteenth is lack of due process or equal rights in state prisons, and the the sixth is interference with the right to counsel or trial preparation. So it fundamentally violates multiple rights, but nobody cares because of the individual that it's targeting. So, what I mean by that is that I think people actually let me I'll I'll explain it this way. When you first told me about the city ordinance that was passing in Phoenix, the first thing I did was I looked up the individuals who passed it. So were they Democratic, were they Republican, or were they independent? Because one thing I've been saying for a while is that there's an illusion of a two-party system. So I was not surprised when I found out that more than half were Democratic, including the mayor.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Who voted for it. So these are this this bill, this this ordinance that was in Arizona was passed by Democrats. So I think that's important because it it gives the big picture that this whole two-party system is an illusion. As Erica referenced last week, this is the Epstein class. It isn't, they're not there for us, they're there to make a profit off of us. And I I know a long time ago in one of the episodes, I talked about how at one point in time human resources was called personnel in agencies, and now it's called human resources because we are just seen as that a resource, and that's it. And we all know that human resources in any company is only there to protect the company. Anybody who's ever worked in an agency knows this. You don't have to work in human services. Anywhere you've ever worked, it is about protecting the company. It's about protecting profits, it's about money over people. And it's easy with the people who run housed, it's easy with people who are suffering with addiction in the streets, for the average person who doesn't deal with those things to turn a blind eye to them and say, like, oh, it doesn't matter. But it does because we are all in it together, unless you're part of that 1%, which Erica and I are not part of that 1%. And I would imagine, unless you're a Mossad agent, the large amount of people listening to the podcast are not in the 1%.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Because I'm sure there's at least one of you listening out there. And I'll speak for myself when I say fuck Israel. But oh God, I wouldn't be surprised. Oh, I I know there's at least one out there listening. I know there is.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

They're getting paid like, I don't know, like 150 bucks an hour, maybe. Oh, yeah. It's like they they're just spending. There's another way her tax dollars are going to for people like like little people like you listen to.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

But you know it's true, Erica.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

You know it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

So yeah, and speaking of that, like I figured that was a good segue.

Veterinary Ethics And Gaza Advocacy

SPEAKER_01 20:59

I've been going absolutely bonkers um with frustration. Well, because you know, like we're here we are, we're just everyday people.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Um Although we are incredibly fabulous. I'm just putting it out there.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Connected to other, you know, other human beings around the world in different places. And um, you know, I when we started this journey, uh, Matt is is literally at this point of transition where I was really over my industry and my industry's lack of moral courage.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

So yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Well, actually both of us, by the way, because it's it's the same in my field, too.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah. And um, you know, I had done a lot of organizing in national on national scales with veterinary medicine and um had been doing a lot of advocacy around mental health. And you know, was participating for a brief amount of time in the uh 501c3 industrial complex of um how should I say like you wanna do good, but it has to look a certain way. And some people just have to get paid. And um the question of who is actually being served and why, and why are we doing certain things? Um, it's all nice until somebody gets their feelings hurt about a critique about the way that they are doing something or who's actually being served. So this really happened a lot during Gaza, especially around support of Gazan veterinary students, because I was working with students through an organization that shall not be named. But if you look in the history of this podcast, you will find out who what that organization is. Um, I used to chair their student um mentorship work um because I care about young people a lot. I care about their mental health a lot. And these students were looking to me and basically being like, our there are students there, there's a vet school there, and we have when you say there, you mean in Gaza, yeah, in Gaza, and they were like our our colleagues are getting bombed, and I was like, Yeah, that's big, that sucks, and I asked for us to hold space for the students and those students explicitly the aftermath of that probably basically involved one of the programmer managers who who supported like I don't know, I don't know, but basically it was something that the organization was not quite able to handle, was not able to handle well. They tried, right? But they they made it a lot of both sides, and you know, maybe that's a point in time where that's just what needed to happen, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:20

But I bowed out of participating in that because it wasn't I just want to it amazes me that even now there are still people doing the whole both sides things. I mean, it's the it's literally the most well-documented genocide in history. You can lie, you can live stream it. And same thing with the NASW. The NASW has said absolutely nothing about it, but they were really quick to jump on October 7th and like condemn all that. But but they have been abysmally quiet, and not only on that, but they've been they've been quiet on the Congo, they've been quiet on Sudan. I actually had all of my students the other day look up what's happening in the Congo and why Cobalt, like getting new phones all the time, is at the expense of people dying and being murdered brutally. So whether or not that makes a difference, I don't know, but at least there's 27 people who now know about that that didn't before, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Right. And so the the thing that I've been recommending because I've had a lot of oh, a lot of conversations in behind closed doors. I've had a lot of conversations, you know, I've given, I intentionally spoken from the podium an interwoven anti-war messaging. And colleague uh Dr. Surya Dani and I um had an AVMA talk, One Health and Human Armed Conflict, and why veterinarians should be an anti-war position. Our industry and the role of someone stewarding the human-animal bond, and from the concept of one health in in like within, how should I say, like harmony with nature is older than any state. Right? It is a profession and a calling and a role in society that is older than any state. And our our obligation to humanity is about talking about the human animal and the human environmental bond and how we have a relationship both with animals and humans in a way that is symbiotic, or even where, yeah, symbiotic to working better with each other, right? And it has been co-opted that, like in some ways, people call it for me, it is a faith-based calling of my own nature as far as Buddhism and deviation of suffering, and um, you know, many other layers of why I decided to become a veterinarian. And the number of people who have looked at me and been like, so glad for what you and your friends are doing. Keep going, and just like the complete absence of any sort of responsibility that takes a moment of cost, you know, that puts yourself as at risk in some ways professionally to take a stance, to have the moral courage to say things to people about why are we here.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

I I have to, I just want to throw in a comment. Um, I'm not gonna say who said it, I'll tell you off the air. Um but I was having a conversation with somebody about the World Cup. Now, I am not a World Cup person, I don't watch sports generally, but man, there's a lot of hot guys on there. Maybe I should watch it anyway. Um, but you know what they did to the Iranian team, right? Like, was they had all of these issues with their visas and then they made them like fly to Tijuana and they just treated them like shit. So I was having a conversation with somebody about that, and particularly here in Rhode Island, for anybody who questions whether or not racism still happens. There was a big thing with the Scottish players here. They actually jumped in the Providence River. They were really disruptive in terms of like their rowdiness in the city, but they donated a lot of money. I think it was like $30,000 to Providence. And the you know, Providence just kissed their kissed their butts basically the whole time they were here, which is great. I like Scottish people. I don't have anything against Scottish people at all, but I can guarantee you if that was any other country where the people were not white jumping in the Providence River and getting drunk in the in Providence, I guarantee you they would have been arrested. It would have been a completely different way that we viewed it. So that kind of pissed me off right there. That is blatant privilege and blatant racism that happens in a state that claims to be so progressive. But anyway, that's a whole rant. That's actually not I was going with that. Where I was going with that was I was having a conversation with somebody about how horribly we were treating the Iranian soccer players. And the response was, well, you know, they're just lucky to be here and have a better place, even if it's for a couple weeks than where they're from. And I almost vomited. Because like it is such like uh No, they're not lucky to be here. Like, in all honesty, I think the entire world should have boycotted the World Cup in the United States and it should have been held somewhere else, period.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

So yeah, but you know, that's my rant. I agree, and also like people have no backbone, like literally what I've been learning. So um, you know, so with animal health care workers against genocide, this has continued to do amazing work. Um, I have like taken a brief pause in to re-strategize as far as who I am not the type of person, I'm not a social media person. I'm a relationship-building person, I'm a what systems can we build, like using our hands and things that we have under our control. And then also that there are other people in other roles that are going to work legislatively, which is an option for people, or like, you know, like there are multiple paths for me. Um let's say I try and I'm I'm not gonna continue a strategy that I don't see good outputs out of for long periods of time. Um, I'm gonna continue to look forward. And so right now I'm trying to understand how if I can potentially activate the um institutional bureaucratic leadership in veterinary medicine, is if anything can move them at all to react as human beings to the human beings and colleagues that we have. Um in you know, in in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Syria, in in a place which is considered the cradle from which veterinary medicine and concepts of one health emerged, right? Like the Dr. Calvin uh Schwab, am I getting that last name? I'm pretty sure I'm getting that last name right. I'm not a names person. The the veterinarian who's accredited with with this, you know, one health, which one health, you know, concept, which is not new. He's just describing something that has been practiced by many around the world for a very long time, that human, environmental, and animal health are interconnected. He developed that while working in the Sahel and in Libya. I mean, well, sorry, in Lebanon, when he was at the University of Beirut. This is where he was getting these ideas from in doing this work. And I would have loved to have a conversation with him because I think that if he were alive right now, he would be talking about things the way that me and my colleagues are who were inspired by him and his ideas in the first place. And so what we see is a lot of inauthenticity in veterinary medicine, a lot of, you know, like standing idly by where while things fall apart, and and a lot of people who are working very hard, right? We have veterinarians who are working hard on responding to the score room, this the new world screw worm outbreak, right? We have what is that? New world screw worm. It's a type of fly parasite that impacts cattle and mammals that um comes from your called screw worm? Screw worm, new world screw screw worm.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

It is where is the screw?

SPEAKER_01 32:52

It's pretty high. Um, it's in the cases are in new in Texas and New Mexico right now. Um, it mostly has to do with the economic impact of the beef cattle industry. So um, you know, we can complain more about beef prices being higher. There are a couple of other reasons for that, but that's a side, that's a side question.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

It just makes me think of the whole avian thing that we talked about too, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:15

In like another thing, right? It's like how we manage these things. There are a lot of things that are available for critique, but in my opinion, um, you know, I I see like, you know, we have to be able to communicate to the public about larger issues, about um, and to be an example, right? To be a part of the moral courage of a society, right? To and I've said this like at other vocal, you know, local rallies, I guess, um, that the role of a veterinarian and an animal healthcare worker is to remind humanity of the best parts of humanity, of of our our ability, this magical gift to have a relationship with the natural world and with our animal companions and with each other as part of a larger ecosystem, that that thrives.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

If you get a chance, and actually, I think the listeners, if you're interested in this, it would also be a great thing to watch.

Activism Lessons And Ways To Help

SPEAKER_03 34:18

There's a documentary called How to Survive a Plague. It's about the AIDS epidemic in the 80s and the 90s. Yeah. And it walks through the change efforts and what that looked like and how it took 10 years of constant activism. And this was back before they would, you know, like tase people and gas people for protesting. So the people in the video actually were protesting more than you would see now. But all of the arguments are the same, like Dr. Fauci's in the video, and you've got senators and representatives kind of spinning the same narratives about immigration causing it, and like healthcare being a human right comes up a lot in how this is what 40 years ago, and all of the arguments and all of the rhetoric and all of the stuff is the same.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Right? Which is really frustrating if you watch it. Uh, but I would encourage people to watch it.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Yeah. And so, like, in general, right now, I'm in this situation where I am, you know, I I came to many affinity organizations hat in hand, um, as did my colleagues who helped co-found um Animal Healthcare Workers Against Genocide. And um, you know, a call to action uh of any form of support, right, in any sort of institutional leadership sort of way, even by like, you know, speaking, right, speaking to people in a direct meeting or listening to a presentation, like absolute like reading some data, and as far as I know, like just stonewalled, right? And now, you know, I've gone through these stages of of conversations with Kamel, this veterinary student um in Gaza, who I speak to often, and like all of the things that we have spoken to each other over the year of trying to, you know, have hope with whichever space I'm going to to try and speak on their behalf, you know, because mostly because it's so difficult to get information and data out of Gaza at times for like everyday people. Like it is a struggle to get internet connection. They have done fought so like valiantly, like sometimes they have to be very resourceful to get power and all of these things, and they're it's um I would love to see a world where he can be the veterinarian that he wants to be to serve his community, right? And there's nothing different between him and the three veterinary students that I know for sure that were killed by with their whole families by Israeli bombardment. The um Sulala Animal Rescue and Dr. Muath, and how Dr. Muath was assassinated um by a gunshot of the thigh, because he walked past these yellow sinner blocks that were put um that they didn't communicate was a a line, a kill line.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Even if they did communicate it, they would have done it, they would have killed them anyway, because they're they're just monsters.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

You know, all all all of this, yeah, recently I was informed of a like leadership symposia that the organization that you know purports to be the premier, you know, organization speaking for veterinarians, talking about like the EI stuff, and they didn't talk about neurodiversity or disability or immigration, right? And I had you know ruffled some feathers by giving them feedback about what their plan was and how like insufficient and late it is that we as a professional deserve real leadership that pushes a little bit more. But instead, you know, it's it's the let us make sure that the majority are comfortable where we don't actually stay true to our values.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Is there uh is there anything we can do or the listeners can do to help your vet refract?

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

Like is there is there any way we can like people could donate or do anything?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, and animal healthcare workers against genocide has a website, has a, I do believe still should have a GoFundMe link for Dr. Mulat's family. That is a continuous like support need. Our hope, um, and I know they are working on this diligently, um, is to also like there are veterinarians and veterinary students who have gotten out of Gaza, who are in other parts in Jordan, who are likely in need of support. And right now, the the university um in Gaza, they have students that have graduated, but because their tuition isn't like there's nothing functionally happening fiscally, right? So there's tuition, like for them to get their credentials, the tuition has to be paid, and also for the professors to like for this institution of Palestinian learning to continue to exist because education is also part of resistance, right? So um this is this is a big project, and in some ways, I got a little discouraged for a moment and I needed some time to process because I had a mentor that I care about a lot and I value his input. It was basically like because it's $180,000 that we would have to raise is probably a little bit more at this point to cover the educational costs. Because it's not much, right? $180,000 is pennies, right? In the grand scheme of some of the large pockets of funds that move from place to place. And and he was like, that's hard. And so I don't know whether or not we're gonna be able to achieve it, but I think it was a dream that maybe one student at a time, you know, because education, like Sammy Obedee.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

Oh, right. I wanted to plug Sammy O'Bean. I totally I'm so glad you reminded me of that. So Sammy O'Bean.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Teachers, teachers are important.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Oh my god. First of all, he's a brilliant, absolutely brilliant comedian. And I I mean, he's been doing comedy for 20 years, and I only found out about him recently. Um he's Palestinian, and he is uh honestly, and I'm not just saying this because I like him, I think he's kind of a genius because his ability to do like wordplay on the spot. And a mathematician is like something I've never seen before. He can take random, random topics from the audience, and he has. And he's been able to turn like use wordplay to make them funny. I mean, he's absolutely brilliant. And Sammy, if you're out there, Eric and I would love to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

We both hear shows. We both think you're fan.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

I saw you in Connecticut and Rhode Island back to back front row seats. Um, love it, love it, love it.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

So I'm totally tagging him in this, by the way, but he is absolutely brilliant. Like, seriously, like probably the smartest comedian I've ever seen in terms of his like just his knowledge base. And yes, he is a mathematician, and we know he hate math.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And it's and a teacher.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Yeah, he really is. I mean, he uses his comedy to teach people, and he is just brilliant. I mean, I met a lot of nice people at the show. I did plug the podcast to a couple of people that were in the audience that were from Lebanon, as a matter of fact. So, yeah, he I would encourage everybody to watch him.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

So, my goal, right, is that we help these students complete their education. So, this has been happening for the medical students, but we as veterinary and students of agriculture have less of a pool, right, of people um putting that support forward. So um, I am going to send the link to this podcast too. Yeah. Colleagues at AWAG so we can see where we are in that process and we can add whatever links to the show notes and we can try and see if we can, or just stay tuned, we'll put information about it later. Because if student by student, right, we can support that university and through that university support those teachers and those professors and those food systems because food is what makes civilization work. Underlined, underline, exclamation point. If our food systems fail, and part of that is both veterinarians and agricultural students and you know, keep horticultural students, like people who are involved in environmental care and not through, I mean, to be honest, like not through bureaucratic means. And um my hope is that, you know, wherever you are, you can take a look at some of these projects. What's happened to unhoused community where you are, what is going on with immigration, right? Because this is universal. This is not just here in the United States. Actually, some of the big ratcheting that the United States would be doing. It's all all over the world. People are, people in power are learning from each other on how best to exploit the immigrant class. Right. Both and especially the more vulnerable you are, of course, like them. So there are things to learn about what's happening in your locality, um, what's happening with the food system, what's happening with people who are unsheltered, what's happening with access. And if you have the privilege to be a little bit more secure, or you have friends who are a little bit more secure, there are ways that you can make a big difference.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

And um Erica, do you think, and we do have to wrap up for time, um just opinion.

Controlled Opposition And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Obviously, this is all of our opinions, unless we're we're giving like factual stuff. Do you think the AVMA is occupied?

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Okay, because I think the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

But I don't I don't think it's like I don't think it's like exclusively like you know, like um I I don't think it's like um well let's let me put it this way in the United States, veterinarians used to provide the medical care for enslaved poor people. So there's the two there's the two separate things. It is the societal role that has existed for thousands and thousands of years of providing care for animals and playing a role in between the relationship between people and animals, that is something that is beyond a degree given by an institution.

SPEAKER_04 45:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

So that's like the distinction, right? Of like that's the same thing with human medicine, like the act of a healer, or even like the act of an advice, because in some ways our mental health and social work roles are our community caretakers, right? People who are involved with um bringing community together and and advising how like and and there are roles, right, for human relationship in human societies that have been um how should I say, like bureaucratized.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

Yeah, I um I I agree with you, and I'm starting to think more and more that all of these agencies that should be fighting for a change are just controlled opposition. Like they're only doing like as much as they can to look like they're doing something, but they're they're not doing anything. And I'm I'm seeing it more and more with like lots of different topics. Like even the even when I was talking about um uh solitary confinement, the four the four groups that are fighting it, the NASW is not one of them. So I just find that interesting. That's all. But unfortunately, we do we do have to wrap up. I actually have a client. Um so thank you everybody for tuning in. Again, sorry about the delay. Uh, we'll put the notes in as soon as possible. And um, thank you again for all your support.