S4 E: 8 Accountability Or Bust

Matt provides and update on the status of the Men's Retreat and the lack of accountability.  We talk about the excuses, the missing paperwork, the pattern of complaints, and why “no official membership” is not a real barrier to removing unsafe participants. We continue to look into what community safety should look like in any nonprofit or trauma-adjacent space  This could be accomplished by a  code of conduct, an orientation that sets expectations, real consequences, and leaders trained to handle risk rather than bury it. We also share practical tools for holding your ground, including documentation, escalation paths, and when it makes sense to involve outside oversight.

Then we pivot into a relationship dynamic we keep seeing: the weaponization of therapy language. We break down why “my therapist said you’re X” can be manipulative, how ethical therapists think about one-sided stories, and how to respond in a way that brings the conversation back to ownership and honest boundaries. If you’ve ever felt pressured by borrowed authority, this will give you words for what’s happening and a clearer next step.

If this was useful, subscribe, share it with someone who’s navigating a messy institution or a confusing relationship, and leave a review so more people can find us. What’s one red flag you now refuse to ignore?

Feel free to contact us.  Ericka and I would love to hear from you.

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Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae. 


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.  


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com 

Transcript

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Disclaimer And Welcome Back

SPEAKER_00 0:20

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the United States with PTSD. I am joined with the incredibly fabulous and stunning Erica today.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Oh, and I'm here with a fabulous Matthew, and so wonderful to be here talking about it. And y'all are fabulous.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

We have a funny story. So Erica and I recorded a whole episode, and then I realized at the very end I never hit record.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

No. So uh, you know, we'll we'll do our best. It was really good.

The Lost Recording Story

SPEAKER_02 1:05

We're gonna cover the same topic. But sometimes, sometimes it happens, and sometimes things are just so good that they're just put into the air and only the people there witness it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

So we are going to try to recreate the amazingness that we just did. Um as best as we can. So I'm gonna start off with an update because that's how we started the other one about the men's retreat, because I realized I didn't give an update at the end of last episode. Recap this was a retreat that there was an individual there, and this is public record, who has a history of being accused of sex crimes and lost his medical license as a result of it. And after doing some inappropriate acting in inappropriate ways with me, the organization had said that they would not, that they had told this individual to stay away from me and they were going to protect me from him, and then they gave him my home address, um, which I that's the recap.

Retreat Safety Breakdown And Address Disclosure

SPEAKER_04 2:05

So I followed the appropriate chain of command. I went to the people who did it, and they said that I signed consent, which gave permission. I have asked for this alleged consent that I signed, and to date I have still not received it. The the explanation I think is more of the well, that's the way we've always done it versus like having an actual policy. And I just want to point out that even though they disclosed my address, they are trying to blame me by saying you signed a consent form. So I requested the consent, as I said, did not receive it, am not getting anywhere with the organization. Now, this occurred in October of 2024, so this has been going on for two years now. And in the meantime, this individual was arrested and char and was is alleged to have done more sexual crimes in his home. So I reached out to the YMCA, who hosts the organization. They do not run the organization, but they provide the space for it and gave them a rundown of what was happening. They said they were going to put pressure on the organization. So I sent both of them an email saying, here is my understanding. This is what I was told. You were supposed to protect me from this person. They also claim that because there is no official membership to this retreat, that they can't kick people out, which is uh the most absurd thing I've ever heard. As I mentioned, I think before, they used my documentation to get him kicked out of to another organization. And they disclosed that he's been kicked out of, I think, like three or four organizations for doing the same behavior. And for some reason, they can't, they can't get him out of this program. I think it's just sheer laziness and avoidance. But anyway, um, so they my crux, the crux of the letter I sent was basically, I want this fixed to make sure that this never happens to anybody else who can't advocate for themselves. My understanding is that at least four or five other people in this particular retreat have complained about him. So this is not just a me thing, this is like a pattern of behavior, and there's public record to back up his pattern of behavior. So I gave them the benefit of the doubt by saying you need to come up with a form that says what's being disclosed in terms of contact information, because most people would never agree to giving their home address for contact information. The email was not responded to. I waited a couple weeks. I sent a follow-up email that said it's clear I'm not getting the information that I've requested now for I think six months I've been requesting this information. No, five months. Um, and then I have no choice but to go to an outside agency, to which they responded very quickly and were like, oh my God, we never saw the original email. It went to the spam folder, uh, blah, blah, blah, which is kind of par for the course with them. They just blame and shift focus and all that stuff. So as it stands now, um, I've already gone to the attorney general's office about it. Uh, they have a branch that's specific for nonprofit organizations because I do think that this organization has the ability to be a great thing, but I think it's run by a bunch of egos and people who are not trying to make it better and thus make it incredibly dangerous. I mean, you have an organization that encourages people to be vulnerable. And as you can imagine, people who tend to go to things like this are people who have trauma histories or people who are really trying to work on themselves, and then they're um allowing individuals to be there that, in my experience, and this is just my personal experience, tried to groom me. So I'm assuming that that is a pattern of behavior that seems to be documented as well, uh, which I think is really dangerous. And I think the why, which is it's a boys' camp. If the parents of the if the parents of the those boys knew the individuals that were being hosted at this camp, I think they'd be very concerned about what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Is uh is there ever sync synchronous activity like multiple organizations at the same time?

SPEAKER_04 6:27

Uh no, but so so here's but here's it's interesting that you mentioned that. So they I I kind of find this gross, but I found out the reason afterwards,

Paper Trails, Excuses, And External Complaints

SPEAKER_04 6:35

and I didn't mention this the first time. So the organization has tried to make it so that there are no women that are at the retreat at all, and that means like YMCA staff, like nobody is there because they have a kitchen, they have obviously people who are taking care of the grounds. And the the way I understood it originally was that they didn't want women there, but however, I think what I was later told was that they didn't want the liability because of the way that the men might interact with the female staff, so they didn't want there to be any like um inappropriate behavior. I mean, that may or may not be the case, but that's how it was explained to me.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Okay, so I'm I'm gonna have some reflections here. Um so we have a couple of things because when when Matt and I talked about this before, we were talking about like this is clearly an example of uh a lack of organizational accountability processes and also lack of um an organization having things in place. Um, this organization uh has been around what 50 years?

SPEAKER_04 7:45

I think it's been about 50 years, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Okay, so for an organization that is 50 years old to not have a code of conduct, to not have an orientation at the beginning that says, these are the expectations of behavior. If we hear about any of these things or if any of these things happen as far as inappropriate behavioral interactions, you will be asked to leave and you will not be welcomed back. Like it's it's a very simple very simple, very simple to say ahead of time, these are the parameters of our community safety guidelines. You are agreeing as a participant to follow these community safety guidelines. If you do not follow these community safety guidelines, you will be asked to leave. And every organization should also have people within leadership that are competent and capable to engage in these both uh de-escalation, like community safety, and also it's good when any large groups of people are gathering to have people to have uh safety training and actually honestly like stop the blade, CPR, active shooter training, all of these things are basic responsibilities that an organization should strive towards if they haven't already, and any organization that has 50 years should already have it, and unfortunately, a lot of them don't.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

And now allegedly, I haven't looked at their website, but because of this, they have finally drafted a code of conduct that is supposed to be on there, and they are now creating a form that will delineate what giving contact information is. It is one of those things where they are still just shrieking responsibility. They have still yet to send me this form I allegedly signed. And yeah, I've had every excuse from oh, the computer person is out, oh, we're all volunteers, like we're trying to get to it as fast as we can. I mean, I originally requested the contact information, like what I signed in March. So there's no reason why, as of today, I should not have it. The other thing that I do think is concerning, and again, this is my opinion. I don't want to get sued for slavery or anything, right? This is just my opinion, and I'm just stating the facts that if you have an organization that is bringing in vulnerable people to work on themselves, and there is somebody who has a documented public history of engaging in sexual, sexual um predatory behavior, and you have multiple complaints at that organization, and he's been thrown out of other other places, and the organization does not address it, but then blames the victim for signing in a piece of paper they can't seem to find. It it's not a far jump to then hypothesize about what might actually be happening there, right? I mean, again, that's that's just a guess. I'm not saying that that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

And they're creating a permissive environment.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

Right. Like if you if one plus one looks like two, it's gonna be two. So I I think it's it's just concerning. And uh shaking my head. There's a there's a reason why people don't go back. And I've offered to be part of the solution, but they don't care. They just want to do this. We this is the way we've done it, this is the way we're gonna keep doing it. And uh, you know, it's it's very concerning.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

So one of the things that we talked about that we want to make sure that anyone listening has these types of like frameworks um available to them that you can share with other people in your life if something like this comes up for you, um, or if you observe it, or if you're reflecting of how to navigate uh something problematic with um an organization that you're either participating in something with or that you're a part of. And this is a kind of so we're we're basically saying like accountability. Accountability is so important. And fundamentally, in the United States, we have a real big problem around accountability. We have an avoidance around accountability on multiple structural, in like interpersonal, um, institutional, structural, like it from the micro to the macroscopic, like foundationally. But one of the things that you can do, if you're in a situation, so Matt has demonstrated different methods that he's approached with this organization, he's kept records, he's um talked to different people, he has not let that, he has continued to hold them to account, which and in the context of yeah, it does take a it is a burden. And if you can't do that on your own, doing that with support and you're with your friends, with other people around you can be helpful if doing it on your own is is um how should I say, like to take up too much bandwidth. The other option, if you can't actually find accountability resolution, they keep on it's like walls, like going, like as Matt said, going to an external accountability institution. Um, there are both like from you know, there are organizations that are associated with that at different levels. So let's say it's a professional organization, right? It's a there's it's a licensing thing. There are options on that path. And then the third thing is writing about your experience, or there's an option where you can create things that say tools for other people to critically evaluate. You know, what are green flags, what are yellow flags, what are red flags, what are questions that you can ask about an organization or to organizational leadership, about their processes, about how they're prepared, or you can just publicly talk about this is how this is something that didn't work, right? And and making people aware of it. Of course, you have to be aware of when we're naming organizations or people. So sometimes it's better to name roles rather than people. So, like the director or the executive

What Real Community Safety Requires

SPEAKER_02 14:05

director, uh, an organization at this, like the president of the this association, right? Rather than naming the specific person, you can do those kinds of things to make sure that things don't get shoved underneath the carpet, like too.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

And they tried. And you know, I have to tell you, if if you've ever been in this position, it's easy to want to give up. There's been a couple of times where I've been like, oh my god, I'm beating my head against the wall and I'm not getting anywhere. But that's what they want. They want people to just kind of back down. So I am not gonna do that. And it's even if I think I'm not getting anywhere, I'm going to keep going until something changes. Because I can advocate for myself, and I obviously knew this is a toxic and very bad place with what's happening, but there are people who can't. And they're gonna get sucked into that. And if if I was not able to advocate and they had said to me, Oh, you signed a release form, I might be like, Oh, I I I guess I did, you know, and I might back down. But of course, I knew that I didn't sign any form that ever said anything like that. So, and they have yet to produce it. It's not my job to, and this is important, it's not my job to to prove this. They have to prove, because they did it, they were the one who disclosed my information. They have to prove that they had permission to disclose that. I don't have to prove they didn't, they have to prove they did, and they have been unable to provide that. So, as I said, um, I don't remember if I said it just now, but I said it in the first time I've gone to the attorney general because I followed the chain of command. I mean, I I went to the president of the organization, I went to the liaison, they all blew smoke up my ass. I went to the hosting hosting place, they haven't done anything about it. I was gonna go to the board of directors of the hosting place, but from what I can gather, it looks like the one of the board directors might be related to the person I was talking to. So I'm like, all right, that's probably not gonna work. So I've given them ample time, and now I've gone to the attorney general. And I, when I get a hold of them, I am going to file an official complaint because there's problems with the governance of that place.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

And it has the ability 501c3, it is regulated by state. There are things that are regulated by the state.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

So And they, you know, they try to skirt standards and they try to fly by the seat of their pants. And I just I don't know that they're I wish there was some sort of study as to like if they're damaging people more than they're helping people. But I mean, I have certainly seen both. So it's it's concerning.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Well, I think that that like in in summary, like how this packages is about how you can hold your ground and pursue accountability in the context of like with an organization or an institution, some of the things that you can look out for. Um and you know, sometimes it's due to ignorance, sometimes it's not intentional, but um, you know, what is it that the that that saying, the road to hell is famous with good intentions. I mean, it doesn't mean that you can't still like I don't care if someone did something really screwed up and harmed a lot of people out of ignorance, that's they still need to be held accountable. Absolutely. Like or or they they shouldn't they shouldn't be in a leadership position or like the you know, that's the thing. We'll like responsibility is real.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

I agree with you. If you can't be in a leader ship position, don't take it. You know, and then certainly don't blame other people for your shortcomings.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

And follow up with things that are worthy of concern. Geez.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

Yeah, like they just they don't care. And then, you know, like I said, they've done the whole like, oh, we're just volunteers. Well, then pick somebody else because like you suck at it, you know, like seriously. Like it's just dumb.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

And and speaking of dumb things, right?

Alexa, Fake News, And Political Theater

SPEAKER_04 18:24

So I'll try to tell the story the same way as I did the first time, which was that Sunday, I was trying to last Sunday, I was trying to sleep in, and my Alexa woke me up. And when I sometimes say Alexa snooze, she hears news sometimes. So I was just like, I want to lay in bed, I don't want to do anything. And I hit Alexa Snooze, and she said, and recent news, um Lindsay Graham died, and I was like, Oh my god, it's a beautiful day. And I jumped out of bed, and I was like, today's gonna be the most beautiful day ever.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

We're um Lindsay Graham, war criminal, uh like like like war hawk, like this man is literally part of the reason why this back and forth situation of whether or not the current administration, whether or not are we, are it did did we do an MOU? Are we in a ceasefire, or are we at Oregon? Are we not bombing? Are we bombing? That back and forth is directly related because whenever it seemed like things might be on a path to um bombs not being flung across the Middle East, and um Lindsey Graham would sachet his way with her high with her high heels, don't forget it into um whatever private session with Trump for hours and hours and get him to the point of um flip-flopping like he flip-flops. So um, you know, it was it's interesting. And another thing that I was listening to, I was listening to the bulwark, um, very, very interesting podcast. If you haven't listened to it, um they uh it's run by a lot of um used to be Republican, um Republicans now no longer. Um, and they had experience working with Lindsey Graham and knowing him personally. Um, and they were bringing up how, you know, when Trump first was on the scene, he was very, very strongly against it and how quickly, and so it's really important to understand the level of moral fiber, spine, or lack of one by looking at a politician's history. Now, you all know um Matthews in my position. Uh, you know, we we think that it is a single political class, um of which have very, very, very questionable uh oral character. Uh all are war criminals and do things turning people into numbers and do not caring about mass death, both direct and indirect, that they are responsible for.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

Lynn and Lindsay Graham is just not a good person, right? So, like one of the things that pisses me off is the is when you have um okay, I I thought about this afterwards. It would be like Hitler getting killed, right? And then all of a sudden, all of the people on the opposing party are like, oh, but he was a great guy. And you know, when I worked with him, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's what the Democrats are doing right now. I mean, Lindsey Graham is objectively a horrible person. I mean, he was anti LGBT, even though we all know that he was closeted. And I I know that after he died, all his NDAs are no longer working. So I can't wait to hear all the stories that are going to come out about him. But we all know Miss Ladybug was like hooking up everywhere she was going with all sorts of different guys, right? And has no problem turning against the gay community because Lindsay Graham is not a good person. So the world to me, I believe, is a better place than he's passed away. And I'm not going to pretend it's not and be like, oh, but you know, he was really great shopping.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Like, you know, like it's also one of those things where it's the political theater, right? It's the layer, the layer of um the lack of authenticity. And this is back to the accountability culture, right? Like when people are like, I don't nobody like like humans die. Humans die. All people die, right? Like just because someone goes from living to death does not mean that they need to be pedestalized. Does not mean that they all of a sudden all of the horrible things like should be forgiven and forgotten. Forgiven or forgotten. That's part of the problem of why we're in the position we are. Like, this is like why humanity continue to struggle this thing because we have such a freaking short memory and attention span about the horrible, horrible things that people have said, done, been part of, and just you know, people are like, oh well, you know. And I have to tell you be better. I don't care. There are plenty of people who can be in that position who didn't do those horrible things.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

Exactly. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. You always have the option to quit or go somewhere else or to like make changes, right? What the 20-minute conversation I had with Mitch McConnell on my Reugi board, he also agreed with me about Lindsey Graham.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

It should be, I don't, I don't know. So so some of the things to note, right, because it's important to understand, like, there's a lot of sensationalism, right, around all this stuff. Number one, like um Lindsay Graham most likely did not was not assassinated. Like he's like, we have a gerontocracy, right? Like old people die from all sorts of long-term health issues or things that they are more susceptible to. And in addition to that, thanks with Mitch McConnell, whatever is happening with him, right? There's a reason at I think they need to hold out until like August. But if if it comes out that he is passed before that point, um, a special election will happen. So if they hold it until a certain point in time, it I don't know. It's just one of those things where understanding political theater and this spectacle spectacle that is the American political system, it's it's absurd.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

Maybe they can just do what they did with Lindsay and maybe Mitch McConnell has a sister or like, I don't know, uh a child somewhere that they can just pop into office, you know, play without an election. Like, why don't we just do that?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Well, we were talking about that as well, and one of the things that I noted is is I believe if we spent some time digging, we probably see it very frequently on both sides that a family member gets shifted over into that political position, which makes no sense.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

There's no well, it's it's the monarchy, right? It's the Epstein monarchy that we uh gosh that's right. It's it's funny that taking us back.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

We're taking us back.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

I I have to laugh that the pictures of Mitch McConnell now that we're seeing those AI-generated pictures, he looks much better than he has in his entire life. He looks young and vibrant.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Oh, poor turtle.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

So ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Um, and you know, hopefully, we also in the midst of this, right? We we we're laughing, and also it's very serious. So yeah, you gotta find places to laugh about this, and also recognize that um the absurdist political theater that we are witnessing also has a lot of uh danger to

Staying Informed Without Burning Out

SPEAKER_02 26:35

it. It's it's a dangerous situation. Um, there are a lot of things going on, and I understand that it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming to pay attention what's happening nationally, internationally, and locally. And they benefit from our disengagement. So um take breaks, like take care of yourself, and also understand that people completely disconnecting and not being informed, like A, that it's by design that they're trying to that it's the cult like flooding the zone and and just trying to overwhelm a nervous system by sending so much information, and also if we're not paying attention and staying informed, that gives them the opportunity to do whatever they want and push things through, like trying to merge our military with Israel's military, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

Which it's funny because speaking of revisionist, um, because there were a lot of Democrats who voted against it this time around.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:49

And I was I'm in one of these like Facebook Democrat groups, and they're all like, look at how great they all are. I'm like, did you guys not forget that this is how it got here in the first place? These people are just like controlled opposition. Like, don't don't suddenly pretend that they've all been anti-genocide this whole time. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

They needed to be convinced that genocide was maybe a bad idea.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

They needed to wait for enough people to be like, I mean, it's it's preserving self-interest, it's political interest, right? Where they're like, oh, in order to stay in power, maybe I should shift my position just a little bit. Just a bit so I can keep on getting that good lobbyist super PAC money.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

And as you said, it's self-interest, it's not the interest of the people, it's self-interest. Like, how do I stay in power? Right? Like, I don't care what you know, they don't care what the constituents think. They don't care at all. All they care is how do I get re-elected.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yes. So um, I do I do will take a moment to say I appreciate individuals that are, you know, there are some people who want to engage in changing electoral through change through electoral politics on the oh, let's see. I think my I am hesitant to really um devote any of my time beyond local and state. But um, you know, for the people who are still uh doing that fight, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. My my energy goes elsewhere. Um, and I respect you and appreciate you. And also uh I wish you luck and um you know understand that it's uh I I don't I don't know. I hope it works for you. Well said.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

Well said. And that you know, that's a great point to to go back to what you said about not being able to you know stay on top of everything. I don't think we expect anybody to stay on top of everything. You can't, right? But you gotta pick what's passionate, what you're passionate about. So if you're passionate about two things, then focus on those two things, and other people will be passionate about the things you're not focusing on. And that's we just have to work together.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Yeah. And then also, if there are people in your life who are not doing anything who are head in the sanding it, do your best to encourage them to pick a thing because we we need people to be engaged, and it is going to take a long time to mobilize enough people to make a change. Um, you know, I was reviewing some other like ant um historic, how should I historic archives? The Vietnam anti-war movement was working for like eight years before big, big change started happening. And wow, also there was the draft. So, like more people were participating and pushing because they had friends who were um who were drafted and and killed. That makes sense. So so when we look at the situation right now, like I just want to put that forward of we have to be aware of the historic pressure that has been required and the amount of time and how drastic and important it is that we we pick pull whatever levers of power and influence that we have for people because it may take longer than our current, how should I say our like the current average American realizes it's actually shiss the needle. So get on it.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

I know, and unfortunately, all the people like the people in Gaza don't have that much time, you know. So like it's uh but you're right, it does take a long time for changes to happen. I think what's really more important is that once the changes happen, it takes people to stay on top of it to make sure it doesn't happen again. Because once people change, they just forget about it. They're like, okay, it's changed, let's back off now. And they can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

That is where we failed, and that is um, you know, we could probably talk about the psychology of that. I don't know. We'll prepare that for another episode, and we have other things in planned, but we did want to talk about um a particular shift. Should we topic shift? Do we feel ready to talk?

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Yeah, because that's it. This is about where we shifted. Yeah. The last one.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

So

When Therapy Language Gets Weaponized

SPEAKER_02 32:51

um we're talking about um was it weaponization of therapy? Is that what we're calling about it? So and this is the process in which people utilize either therapy, therapeutic language, um, or like saying to somebody like my therapist said this and this about you, or someone being like, my therapist said this and this about this relationship, just like as a method of um, how should I say, as a as a strategic choice during a conversation in a relationship with another person. Um, and so we're talking about a what is why that is problematic. Um, and Matt has some thoughts about as far as as far as how he's experienced as a therapist. And also, maybe you might think about like different ways that that might show up. Um, so what does that look like from your end?

SPEAKER_04 33:59

I'm gonna cover from two different fronts. So the first one is what it looks like from the therapist perspective. So keep in mind we have two different roles. Our role is to be the client's cheerleader. So we give them unconditional positive regard and we really work with them to try to get where they want to be. Now, that being said, we also have to challenge them, right? So we can't just say, yes, you're great about everything as we talked about toxic positivity and how that doesn't lead to growth. So I mean, you really have to challenge people. Now, we only have the client's perspective. So if you were my client and I've been seeing you for five years, when you're telling me about what's going on in your life, I'm gonna believe you unless I have some reason to not, like if there's like an inconsistency. So we certainly are going to present information that we think would best support you. Now, that does not mean that we're diagnosing other people because we can't do that. And if your therapist is doing that, that's poor practice. You can say, this sounds like this based on this, but you have to be very clear that you're not diagnosing anybody because you're only getting 50% of the information. So you could say, based on the information you're sharing with me, this is what it sounds like. So again, our goal is you and your mental health. Now, as a client, if the client then goes home, and this has happened plenty of times, and tells their partner, their mother, like whoever that person is, oh, my therapist said you're this. First of all, you're the client's using that in a very deliberate and um what's the word I'm looking for? Manipulative way, because that becomes like a power dynamic, right? Like even so-and-so thinks you're a terrible person. Um, so I would look at it through that that lens and know that that's probably not what happened, but that the person is using that as a way to manipulate. And that's not why somebody should be engaging in therapy. Um, you had asked earlier, how do you respond to something like

Bring It Back To Direct Ownership

SPEAKER_04 35:57

that? Well, what I would respond and say is if you know you came to me, like say you were my partner and you came to me and said, Well, even my my therapist thinks you're an awful person, I would then say, Well, is that what you think? Because you want to shift the focus away from the the person that's not there, like the person who's not in the room, to the person who's standing in front of you. Because most likely they think that, but they're using somebody else who isn't there as a way to back it up because you can't prove it otherwise. Right. And it takes and it takes away the accountability from the person who's saying it.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:34

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Yeah. So we're talking about like having that like direct ownership of the thing that you're trying to say, or like trying to so, for example, let's say you are trying to get someone help, right? And you were then using this external therapist perspective to try and push that person in a particular direction, right? Or influence that person. That is a way of trying to bring in expertise that doesn't belong in a relationship between you and that other person.

SPEAKER_04 37:21

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Um, and in addition to that, like how many layers of interpretation are on that? Like you might have a skewed or a biased perspective, and also maybe there is something within that relationship that's an incompatibility, or potentially even you're avoiding how someone is avoiding requests or things from that person that is causing friction and conflict.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

Yeah. So and you know what I didn't think about last time. I'm gonna I'll put it in another scenario, is there's nothing good that ever comes out of involving somebody else who isn't there. So, for example, if you let's take the therapist off the table and you are talking to your partner and you're like, even my best friend hates you. Okay, well, what does that now do? That's certainly not gonna make the person that you're telling that to any more accountable and make them want to go get change. But what you have now done is you have now helped break the relationship between your best friend and your partner by throwing that in there. And the more people you complicate, the more people become part of the relationship. So then it's not just you and me, it's you and me and my therapist, it's you and me and my best friend, it's you and me and my therapist and my best friend. You know, and that's not that's not a good relationship dynamic. It should be just between you and I, and that should be where the focus is. So you always bring it back to that, right? Like, how is this impacting us?

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Right. I have a I so I think there's something here that is something interesting to me that I have come across, and and as far as like when therapy is utilized as an evasion tool. So we were talking about how like you talking about challenge, right? And in the context of um someone utilizing the therapeutic process to get um validation to not work on something, or um, you know, it sometimes there can be a distinction between so, like we're talking about how in interpersonal relationship, or it can be like, let's say with your job or something else, like trying to avoid confronting the reality of a situation or an incompatibility or something that needs to change by saying, like, I'm gonna focus on a mental health or just look forward, don't look back, like don't deconstruct your potential role in the situation. Then this is something that um coming from a cultural background in which there's a little bit more, how should I say, like both community accountability or um, you know, relationship accountability as far as like how do we show up as citizens or community members, um, an interpersonal relationship, and how in some ways I don't really see a whole lot of functions for that in American culture, which is kind of confusing to me.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

You're right. And actually, that I didn't comment on that last

Mental Health Needs Social Context

SPEAKER_04 40:26

time. I remember you saying that, and I wanted to comment, and then I got sidetracked that that is a a very important part that's missing from just the way we do mental health, which is the macro part, or it's the community part or the society part. I'm often explaining to people when, especially with their kids, because they want to like these days we want to diagnose kids with everything. So somebody will come in and say, like, why are there so many kids that have ADHD? Why are there so many kids that have this? And I'll say, Okay, let's look at bigger picture. Okay, bigger picture is that kids now have to worry about getting shot when they go to school, which is something that we didn't have to worry about when we were growing up. So they see this every day. The way our society is is that we are now everything is so quick paced. Everything is super fast, super fast, super fast. And we're encouraged to go from like one topic to another. We are encouraged as a society to shift gears really quickly and not stay focused on something. You can't take that part out of the equation. You can't just say, like, oh, well, it's because we also, I mean, think about kids. We take kids who are want to be incredibly active, right? Because that's developmentally appropriate. Kids have a lot of energy and they want to be active.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

We throw them in-cause we move their bodies to work on their musculoskeletal. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 41:42

And we throw them into a very unnatural environment while they have the most amount of energy during the daytime, and then we force them to stay structured and focused on things. Combine all of that and then say, Oh, we have mental health issues. Well, maybe it's that we don't have a rise in ADHD. Maybe our society is failing, and because of that, kids are adapting to that, which then creates what looks like ADHD, right? But we don't look at it from that perspective. We look at it as an individual, something's wrong with you.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Yeah. And so, like the evasion of thinking about what our roles are in, how should I say, in in larger social structures, um, and how we can be like accountable to each other in creating cohesive social environments that involve multiple people, um, and not just the family unit, right? The focus is just so heavy on the nuclear family unit as like the only thing that exists. Oh, gosh, sorry, I've really struggled with that. Um, and like concepts of intergenerational components of relationships and how, you know, maybe the whole part of um, you know, oh, like, like it's okay to not unpack that and not look at the past and and just be okay and you are who you are now. And for me, that sounds like an accountability evasion, right? And that's kind of if you layer that over, the whole like, oh, well, I don't I don't have to think about how I how how I how I as a society committed a genocide. Like, we don't have to talk about that, just look forward, right? So those kinds of things, when you think about it also from the interpersonal layer to the the larger scale, yeah, it can be painful to reflect on when you weren't able to meet what your hopes or aspirations or expectations were, or if something changed where you know that you want to move forward as a changed person. Yes. And also if you're like, well, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about accountability. I did the best that I could, and the person that you harmed is left not. Being able to get resolution, that's not that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Yeah. And accountability is an incredibly important part of therapy. I mean, that's what you need to have. Now, I would argue if somebody's going to therapy voluntarily, like voluntarily, not because they're mandated, even if they're not making the progress that I would like to see, there's a part of them that does have some level of accountability, even if it's tiny because they're engaging, right? So I think if you were to interview any one of my clients, they would probably tell you one of the things I don't do is that toxic positivity stuff. Like I am very much like, let's confront that, let's be accountable. You know, I really uh we we need to retell the story.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

That's my strength. We need to retell the story. Talk about your your client with the with the snow.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

I'll tell both stories.

Caring Accountability Versus Enabling

SPEAKER_04 44:54

So um I so when I was working in a an intensive outpatient program with uh pregnant postpartum women who struggled with addiction, there was a client who called up one day and it was like flurries out. And she said, Matt, I'm not gonna be able to come in today because it's snowing. And of course, I look at the window and it's like literally flurries. So I said, Would that have stopped you from using? And she said, No. And I said, Then you have to come in because that's not like I'm not gonna accept that as an excuse.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

It is just as good this hearing that around. Like there's part of my brain that's like, I want to learn how how to be able to put challenge it that way and ask that curiosity question. That that curiosity question before the challenge, I think is a really great technique, and one that I'm just like, okay, okay, all right. Yeah, I'm in this lesson.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

Like, it's definitely there's a particular person that works well with me. I'll say that because if somebody's conflict avoidant, they're not going to do really well with me. Um, the other example I gave, and this is a funny one that I tell my students about, um, because I've I've worked in women's healthcare right across the board for a long time, from 99 to 2015. I was only working with pregnant postpartum women. So, I mean, I knew probably more about female reproductive, as a gay man, I probably knew more about female reproductive stuff than some women did. Uh, because I we were always talking about it. And I'm very comfortable talking about it. So I was working in a residential program and I was on second shift, so I was not really in a clinical role. I was more of like the manager at that point in time. And there was a client who had a history of kind of being avoidant, and part of what they had to do was they had to go to like AA meetings or NA meetings at night. So she came up to me, and I think her anticipation was that I was going to drop the conversation very quickly. But she came up to me and she said, Matt, I can't go to the meeting tonight. And I was like, why? And uh, she's like, Well, you know, like female stuff. And I was like, Okay, so you're having a period, and that's gonna prevent you from going to the meeting. Women with periods go to meetings all the time. And she's like, Well, no, she's like, it's just you know, the it's it's heavier than normal, and you know, it's just and I was like, Well, how heavy is it? Are you going through a pad an hour to the point that you can wring it out? Uh, because if that's the case, then that's an emergency, and we need to get you to the hospital. So, I mean, is it that severe? And she was like, uh no. And I was like, okay, then you can go to the meeting. Like it's not like it's whatever.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Yeah. I mean, sometimes so all right, this is this is gonna be a little bit, this is this is fresh, this is new. Um I think right now, we have to be honest, right, collectively in humanity, and you know, as Americans. We have a lot of stuff ahead of us and be avoided is not going to help anyone. And so what now is demonstrated is a caring accountability where in order to get better or get better at anything, right? It can be building a skill, it can be learning something new, it can be changing something in your community. It is hard. It is hard and uncomfortable, and you will stretch yourself and you will feel uncomfortable and you will feel psychological discomfort at times, right? And sometimes you gotta just do it.

SPEAKER_04 48:54

Yeah. I I want to go back, I I didn't say it this time to the example I gave about the person walking to a bar, right? Because this is the difference between what accountable therapy looks like and and unhelpful therapy. So if you had a client, or say, like I had a client who had alcohol abuse disorder and they had a hard time staying sober, and they kept going to a bar every Friday night and getting drunk, and they came in and they said, Can you believe it? I go to the bar every Friday and I tell to like go hang out with my friends and play darts, and I tell the bartender every time, like, I'm in recovery, don't serve me alcohol, but then he gives me alcohol and I don't know what to do about it. So an unhelpful therapist would then help, would co-sign that and say, Well, maybe you should explain this to him, maybe you should do that, maybe you should go to a different time. That would be unhelpful. Whereas if you're challenging somebody, you would say, Okay, why are you making the choice to go to the bar in the first place? You know that you have an alcohol problem. You know that people go to a bar to drink, you are going to a place that revolves around drinking. Why are you then going and blaming the person they're doing their job? Like that doesn't make any sense, right? So that's the type of challenging you have to do versus the, yeah, everything's great, try this, try that. You know, and that's what a lot of people do. I find the biggest, the biggest commonality between many people I've worked with over the years is not really understanding their own choices and what they're doing. And if you're not careful, we just we we encourage the person to be a victim. And I think what it does is it takes away from like real victims, like people who don't have any choices, people who, you know, are walking down the street and then suddenly they're like kidnapped and raped. Like that's a victim. Somebody who's making choices over and over again and getting the same consequence, that's not a victim. That's they have the power to change that.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:49

And that's I think what we need to collectively do. I mean, I do the same thing with myself. I mean, I hold myself to the same standard. I often ask myself, what would I tell a client? And if I if the answer is not what I'm doing, then I change what I'm doing because I don't want to be a hypocrite.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Good medicine doesn't always go down easy. No, no, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_04 51:14

It doesn't, trust me. And you know, I but we that's how you get better, right? Is you you do that.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Healing is hard sometimes, and like sometimes you need gentleness, sometimes you need softness, but also, you know, like it has to be matching to the conditions you're in, and we are under very high pressure conditions. So getting yourself ready, like we we live in a country where our community members are getting kidnapped off of the street by mass men, put into concentration camps where they are being denied medical care. And like, guess what? This has been going on for decades, right? All of these C uh core civic GEO group, they have uh in some of the dismantling of those um uh prisons where they're keeping people, have had multiple levels, uh layers of of uh human rights violations over the decades. Like this is not new, right? It's just maybe with this the scale of it, right? And the um tackling people in the streets.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

Yeah. You know, at this point, deniability is not an option because we you can live stream a genocide. Like you couldn't do that before. I think it's interesting that AI just happens to come out at the same time, right? Like, so now people are like, oh, it's AI. You know, like there's always they're always finding a way to make us question what we're actually seeing and question our reality. I mean, they're the biggest gaslighters in the freaking world.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

So this is this is I know we jumped around a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 52:57

Don't don't forget, this is our second recording.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

So we are like um I do, but what I do want to reflect in this is this is how when you can recognize if you are in the situation, right, where you feel like maybe therapy is being util. So you can recognize both when when therapists are human too, right? When there's a technique that maybe isn't going to support your progress in the way that it needs to, uh, because I think some of what we're talking about is a combination of enablement or evasion of accountability or deflection from owning the direct conversation that you may want to have with someone and the why of the techniques. Like personally, like when we initially talked about it, I was like, personally, when I have experienced this, for me, it's a component of a red flag. And we did talk about how you may want to take consideration and steps on, you know, is it the do you want to change your relationship or the degree of intimacy or et cetera? Is it something that you were going to want to pay attention to? Because, you know, Matt did mention that it is being utilized as a manipulation technique. That might not, that might not be something that you're comfortable with. I don't really respond very well to manipulation. Um, that's me. That's personal, right? That's an incompatibility with me. Um, the secondary thing is like, how can you work with someone to try and come to a common understanding? Um, where Matt was talking about those direct questioning, you know, to try and get to an understanding of what is the actual output goal that a relationship between two people are working towards.

SPEAKER_04 54:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Right. Um and um whether or not it's just too much of an overcontrolling behavior.

SPEAKER_04 55:01

I love what you said about if something is not working, tell the therapist, because that is how, because you're right, we are human. And every single you can't take the humanity out of what we do. So we certainly all have different styles and approaches and our backgrounds and obviously impact our practice. So if somebody says, hey, I don't like, I don't like this, it's not working for me, or oh, I need you to do this, that's good information because then we can adapt what we're doing and we can say, Oh my God, thank you for letting me know. Like, let's fix that, like let's work on that. You know, um, we can't do that if we don't know what's happening. And I'm also the type of person, by the way, we can't we'll end on this too, because you'll get a pre-llate this. If I have somebody that's avoiding something, so for example, um, if I have a client who's avoiding like making a phone call, right? And like maybe for like three weeks in a row, I'm like, okay, Erica, are you gonna make this phone call? Yes. Next week you didn't do it that you didn't do it, you didn't do it. The third week when you come, I'll be like, we're

Avoidance, Neurodivergence, And Support

SPEAKER_04 56:00

gonna call right now while you're here. Pick up that phone.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

Ah and it's okay. I love this because there are definitely things that I avoid, right? And what I have learned over time, because there are a lot of things that I don't avoid, and there are things that I do. And what I have come to understand is that um often it has to do with my neurodiversion brain running into a barrier, like there's something that's not right about it, right? For me personally, and this is not for everyone, my avoidance usually has to do with there's something missing or there's a barrier, or I need to do it in a different way. And very often, body doubling or having someone there with you is something that works for a lot of neurodivergent brains. So if you are avoiding a particular thing, doing something with someone who that you trust and feel safe with to help you through that, or like be a sounding board so you can talk about and identify what the barrier is or what where the avoidance comes from. Because um, yeah, I'll totally own it. I am avoidant attachment to self, right? Um, I have it, and that comes from some pretty deep like family trauma where it's like when I run into certain things, I'm like, I don't need this. I'm gonna go ahead and just like sometimes I'm like, exit, I am going to yeah, and and sometimes I do it too quickly, and sometimes I take too long, but I'm also it's it's weird. I'm also a very loyal person. So um, but it's good to recognize those things in ourselves and if you're avoiding something to try and unpack the why of the avoidment, or if you're not able, if you're trying to bring in a third party to like push someone a particular way, the why you're choosing to do that, or why that is a a technique that are that you're choosing to use rather than owning um what your perspective is. Um or that, like, yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_04 58:03

If to I would say, like, if that were me, right? I agree with you. And I was going to my partner and I was gonna say, my therapist said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I would ask myself in that moment, why can I not say this is how I feel myself? Why do I have to

Listener Feedback And Closing

SPEAKER_04 58:20

use somebody else to like explain how I feel? Um, that is where true empowerment comes from, is being able to say, like, okay, I can own the fact that I'm trying to do something right now that I don't like. So let me change that.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

You know? Well, I hope that we gave all the listeners something to think about from you know, Ladybug Graham to weaponization of therapy.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

Yeah. Well, uh, I hope you all have a wonderful, fabulous day, week, month, year, etc. And hope that you tune in again. We're gonna have some interesting topics coming up. And um, don't hesitate. If you have something that you want to reflect back about today, what we talked about today, or if you have things that you would like us to talk about, shoot us.

SPEAKER_04 59:10

Email at Matt at United StatesofPTSD.com. It's on the web, it's on the not the website, it's on the the notes, but you can also send texts through the apps through like any of the the episodes. So thank you everybody. Look forward to more. Have a wonderful couple weeks.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Bye!