S3 E:9 Not all heroes wear capes.

Erika and I chat with a local hero, Noel Pichardo, a former Rhode Island police officer, to unpack why he calls Flock-style vehicle tracking a mass surveillance tool and why he believes the public should have been told before a single camera went up.

We get specific about how modern ALPR and vehicle recognition systems work, why “we’ll end crime” is a dangerous promise, and how private surveillance vendors create profit incentives that don’t always align with civil rights. Noel walks us through the moment he saw the cameras return, the uncomfortable questions he asked, and the decision to put his name on the record so residents would take the threat to privacy seriously.

Then we talk about what many people never see: the internal cost of dissent. Suspensions, escalating discipline, pressure to sign an NDA, and the professional isolation that comes when an institution treats honesty as disloyalty. We discussed some documented abuse risks, including officers using surveillance tools to stalk partners, and why real accountability has to include transparency, audits, and community oversight at the local level.

If you care about privacy rights, police accountability, and how surveillance technology spreads city by city, listen through and share this with someone who still thinks “if you’ve done nothing wrong, you’ve got nothing to hide.” Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us what your community should demand before adopting tools like this.

If you like our podcast and would like to share your ideas or even be a guest speaker, please reach out to us.  Matt@unitestatesofptsd.com 

https://youtu.be/f1P-g3Hkvjg?si=qVQIuoS9hCkUOmb_

https://ij.org/police-have-reportedly-used-license-plate-readers-to-stalk-romantic-interests-at-least-14-times-in-recent-years/

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/automatic-license-plate-readers-legal-status-and-policy-recommendations

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/hartzmann/no-time-to-die
License code: S4CEQWLNQXVZUMU4

Artwork and logo design by Misty Rae. 


Special thanks to Joanna Roux for editing help.
Special thanks to the listeners and all the wonderful people who helped listen to and provide feedback on the episode's prerelease.  


Please feel free to email Matt topics or suggestions, questions or feedback.
Matt@unitedstatesofPTSD.com 

Transcript

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Intro and Important Disclaimer

SPEAKER_00 0:20

This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic advice or to replace any professional treatment. These opinions belong to us and do not reflect any company or agency.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the United States of PTSD. I have the amazing Erica back with me today. Welcome back, Erica.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Thank you. Fabulous, Matthew.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Thank you. And I am super excited. I have to tell you, this is one of the guest speakers I've been the most excited about because we have a local person here that I actually, locally Rhode Island, that I actually consider a hero because what you did, um I think took a lot of integrity. It took a lot of bravery. And I really do think you're a hero, Noel. So we have Noel Picardo here today, who was a Pataka police officer. And I'm gonna let you introduce yourself and give just your background of what happened recently before we ask questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

So welcome, Noel. Thank you. Oh, thanks for having me, Matt. Thank you for having me, Erica. Yeah, so nice to meet everyone. Um, I hear that Matt and Erica have a committed following here from all over the world, and uh, you guys log in every week. So, hi everyone. If there's someone in Japan, I want a free ticket, I want to go to Japan. So uh

How Flock Tracks Every Car

SPEAKER_01 1:35

so yeah, so I'll try to condense this as best I can. So back in 2021, my department and a lot of departments in Rhode Island, other jurisdictions around the country, they started getting um requests from this company called Flock to test out their technology. And what it is, it's a sophisticated vehicle tracking technology that basically it to put it blamely, it's a mass surveillance tool. Every vehicle that goes by their cameras is captured and it's logged into their system. And the way that the system works is it's sophisticated to the point. Like, let's say if I put down red Subaru with bumper damage, I don't even need a plate, it's able to find vehicles that match that description. It's that specific. It's that specific. Wow, so so it's not just a license plate reader, which I think is bad enough already, in my opinion, but it even goes a step farther than that. They don't really need a license plate, they just need a uh picture of a vehicle, which it does. It's motion activated. So every vehicle that goes by the camera and it's powered by a solar panel, it logs every single vehicle, it captures the plate, and it has all that information in its um system. And the that was how they they marketed it, and they all said you can share this information city to city, state to state. The intention of the CEO who started the company, Garrett Langley, was to have this as a national, as a national system, because you know he had this utopian ideal that he wanted to end crime, and whenever I hear someone say phrases like I'm gonna end crime, I hear the opposite because we all know the only way you're gonna stop crime is if you get rid of human beings. And as a human being, I'm not a a fan of that idea, and uh I'm also not a fan of trying to stop human nature in in order to you know reasonably try to quell or deal with some of the darker parts of human nature. So I get it. I I understand that there's a lot of people in the state who are who favor this have, I think, good intentions, but I I just think they don't understand people very well. I don't think they understand history very well, I don't think they understand you know our 2,000 years of Western philosophy, that tradition very well, because I think this it this idea has already been addressed and why it's a bad idea. Anyway, I'm going off.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

So so I do want to say, oh Noelle, I do want to say I appreciate the what you just said and the sentiment behind it because it's similar to the war on drugs. Like if we just get rid of drugs, you know, but the reality is the war on drugs, and we've talked about this before in the podcast, is it's a war on race and poverty, right? So crime is there's so many problems with it. So I'm really glad that you said that. And then Erica, I think you wanted to say something.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah, I I I wanted to put this in here because I think what you were talking about is really important to draw attention to is like this privatization of strategy. The government has been utilizing the private sector, both with like military, et cetera, to like offload accountability and responsibility for violation of human rights and civil rights. Um, so this has been around the world as far as the using of like basically like defense contractor, it's like private companies that are not held accountable to the same type of assessment of civil rights and war crimes as states are. So they use it in order to say, point, oh, that's where the problem is, not me, but government, right? It's the private sector and it's a it's a method by which to um offload things, and it's also a profit center, right? As far as defense contracts and militarization, right? Because a lot of these things, when you look at where money is made, if if we're looking at capitalist systems, right? If we make that the carceral system being run by profit, like profit-driven private companies, just like surveillance being run by profit-driven private companies, there's a product. What is that product? Surveillance and increasing militarization. And we've been seeing this, like you said, from the war on drugs, um, with like military excessive materials that then get handed to like police in different methods. And and this is an example of it. And so I really appreciate like your perspective that you're putting out, also in like emphatically stating how it's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah. So when it so in 2021, when it was introduced, right, and we we were in a conference room gang trained on it. I could tell already that a lot of my coworkers, not just me, they were uncomfortable, right? They they you know, they there was already um a natural reaction, like, is this already a step too far? Even the captain who was providing the training, who's a good man, I admired him, he said it out loud. He's like, I don't know about this, but I was tasked with training you on this new technology. We may or may not get it, but I was tasked with doing this and this is how it worked. And he probably wasn't too concerned because he was leaving in a year. So he was like, This is this is a problem for the young kids to figure out in the department.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

But anyway, can I have Noel? Can I ask a clarifying question? So when you said they introduced it, was it introduced kind of the way I don't know, like a pharmaceutical company would introduce a medication to a doctor's office? Did they just come in and say, like, hey, we have this product and here we want you to do it, or did it go through like the

Rolled Out Without Public Oversight

SPEAKER_04 7:05

mayor? Did it like what was the yeah?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

It was it was very um unethical. Um, and no one I think disputes this anymore, which I'm I'm glad to see. Everyone kind of agrees that this was done behind the public's back. This was done in in my city's case, it was done behind the city council's back. The city council found out after they were put up. The chief had them put up. Yeah, the chief had them put up and then notified the city council when she got caught. Um, and a reporter who I spoke with, his name is uh Ethan Shorey. Uh he confronted the chief on that question. He says, What made you feel like you had the right to put these cameras up without even notifying the city council? And her response was so the criminals wouldn't know. So that was her defense. So when they put them up in 2021, it was a trial period. It didn't last more than six months because the city couldn't afford it. And so the contract was ended.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

And so it wasn't all right. I just want to say like I just want to emphasize the fiscal malfeasance and the like the tax. So the city couldn't afford to continue a contract, like somebody signed on for something with a private company that violates citizens' right to privacy without notifying anyone in leadership, spending budgetary money of the tax dollar without any approval from anybody, and then had to stop because it was too expensive and they've spent a bunch of money.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Erica, this is this is such a regional thing in Rhode Island, right? So Rhode Island has notoriously been known as to be like run by criminals. And like, I mean, more so than any other state, I swear, because it's so small and incestuous. But Central Falls is pretty much the same way, right? Now we have a prison there, and it has cost the taxpayers of the prison tons of money. And I think Central Falls can't even get out of debt anymore because of like how much they owe to the the prison structure. Oh, I didn't know that. So I'm not surprised. I mean, I'm not surprised at all, but yeah, so I was surprised.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Maybe I'm maybe, maybe I'm well, not anymore.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

I guess someone's well they're all they're good at hiding things, maybe there's a lot of conversations happening behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah, so when I when I saw that happen, I was shocked. I mean, I grew up in Rhode Island, so I I did, you know, you you you hear this classic statement about Rhode Island, like there's no state more corrupt than Rhode Island, right? I heard I heard that growing up from my mother, from but I had never dealt with it before until this moment. And so I I was a little frozen to be honest with you, because I'm like, all right, I there's this technology that to me is obviously a violation of people's natural rights, and then it's taken down not because of that realization, but because of financial reasons. So all that just I didn't know what to do with that. I I I just felt like I was transported to another reality. But the the the technology wasn't adopted for for financies, so I felt at ease. I'm like, okay, so I won't have to deal

Cameras Return and Backlash Spreads

SPEAKER_01 10:25

with this issue because it's it's been dealt with. Um so then fast forward to 2023, I'm in my district and I see them up in my district. And I wasn't notified that we were getting these cameras back. Was anybody in your department notified or was it just not? So as far as I I asked around, as far as I know, the only people who knew were the administration and detectives. So patrol division wasn't formally known. If anyone didn't know the patrol the patrol division, which was the division I was part of, it was it was through word of mouth. So I didn't know so most of the guys didn't know that these were up. Okay. So I see these up in my district, and um I call the city council member who represents the district that I patrolled in, and I asked him, um, why are these up and why weren't the police notified about this? And and if we weren't notified about this, that means the public wasn't notified. Obviously. And he didn't have a very good answer for me. His answer was uh, well, it's for people's safety, so what's the issue? You know, that was pretty much his argument. Like an end justifies the means argument. So, and then I started talking with some other co-workers who were aware that these were up, and it was detectives and uh getting their point of view. And so I'm wrestling with this for a couple months because I I knew this was wrong, and um just as worse, or if not even more worse, the public wasn't notified. Because at the very least, I if you if you at least notify the public in a way that was reasonable and you left this in for the democratic the democratic process for them to decide that they want these. I mean, I would disagree with that strongly, but at least the people decide that this is what they want. But I think maybe the more um malevolent actors in this, I think they had an idea, they had a they had a suspicion that if they did notify the public that they'd be against it, like they are now. It's pretty much a bipartisan national backlash against this, which I'm really happy to see.

SPEAKER_04 12:30

Yeah, they're popping up everywhere. I know they're even they're popping up in the cities in Connecticut, too. They're I because I on my feed I get all of these council meetings.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Well, since this became national news, so far, three cities in Rhode Island canceled their contracts. That's good. Yeah, uh South Kingstown canceled it five to zero vote. Okay, uh Narragansett canceled it five to zero, and uh Gloucester canceled it four to one. So there's a national bipartisan reaction from the people against this, which I'm really happy to see.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Now, do you think because the three the three places that you mentioned are all well, South Kingston's not, but the other two are very rural, right? So I mean there's not huge populations there. So do you think that that factored in?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah, I think maybe as a community, the more they're more united. Okay, that makes sense. That does make sense. Yeah, it could be it could be it's easier for them to come together because like it's unanimous that they're putting that they're canceling the contract, and I'm seeing city council members, politicians apologizing, which I thought I'd never see in Rhode Island, saying we made a mistake, we thought this was a good idea, and now we're you know rectifying taking these down, which that's good. Good on them. And then Portsmouth and um Warren, they outright rejected them from the beginning. Okay, so yeah, I'm seeing the rural, more rural parts of Rhode Island and um yeah, stepping up and canceling these or rejecting them. Uh which doesn't surprise me because, like you said, they're rural, so they're a little more self-sufficient. And self-sufficient people tend to be more vocally against any and anything inhibiting them living their lives. You know, they're they're they're a little more rebellious than city people when it comes to these things, I've noticed.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Well, and I have to tell you now that I live in a rural community, um, it's a it's a very different culture, I will say. Yeah, different culture in the city because I grew up in the city. Yeah, somebody comes on your doorstep and the neighbors come out with guns, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Like, I'm not kidding. Yeah, so exactly. So there's pros and cons to that culture, but this is where it's a pro when situations like this go up. Absolutely. The rural people save us when these types of things happen because they're the first ones to go, no, this is a violation of our autonomy, and we we don't, you know, we don't care, we're gonna come together. And like I said, because they're rural, there's more of that. There's it's it's it's easier to bring those people together and be of one mind on um problems like this. So I'm not surprised. I'm surprised how fast it's happening, but I'm not surprised that they're the first ones in my and my state to loudly say we don't want these, and we're really disappointed that this was done behind our backs, which is what they're pretty much

Speaking Up to Leaders and Press

SPEAKER_01 15:10

all saying.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

So I want to Noelle, I want to go back to your role in this, right? So you so you said that you were you were sitting on it for a little while because it didn't feel good, and you you contacted the council people, and then then what happened, what happened after that?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah, so I can't I contacted the councilman that represented the district I patrolled in. I contacted um Joe Solomon, who represents uh district in Warwick, who's a good man. Um I re I contacted um Ethan Shorey from the Valley Breeze. I send a couple letters, I send a letter to the Senate Majority Leader of the House in Rhode Island, so the Democrat, and then I send a letter to the Senate, the Senate Minority Leader, the Republican Um at the House.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

So I s I send you a lot of people. I have to tell you, that's impressive. So as I told you earlier, I teach in social work. I am constantly trying to get my students to be more active in terms of doing what you're doing because that's part of their job, right? Part of their job is to be active. You're you're going above and beyond what your job calls for because you have a uh a wonderful moral compass. So I just want to point that out that that takes a lot of integrity to do what you've got. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

It certainly does. Yeah, I get it from my mother. Um, but um yeah, I've never been involved politically before in my life. This was the first time. And like to me, it is it didn't feel like I was getting something involved politically. It just it felt like a violation just of our American tradition. Like you you don't know. It feels it feels very American to say no, don't don't spy on me, don't watch me, don't follow me where I'm going. Like it it felt so this was the first time in my life that I contacted my local politicians that I spoke to the news newspaper. I've never done this before in my life. I don't have social media, I don't even have a smartphone. Like, I'm not someone who shares their opinion. Um, I'm very um leery of that because you know, we're on you guys are online, you see online, like we live in a world where everyone thinks they have something to say, and they do to a certain extent. But you know what I mean? They really they they think they're uh I don't know, a prophet or something of some kind. Everyone needs to hear their voice. And um I I just I was I'm suspicious of that mindset. And so I one of the reasons that actually kept me back from talking was am I just being narcissistic or am I just being like, is is there something wrong with me to think that I that I need to speak up? I don't know, and I'm not sure where that comes from, but I had a suspicion of myself of what what gives me the right to question the authorities? What gives me the right to uh you did step out of line. You did your job.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

I mean, think your job is to serve and protect the people, right? Yeah, now now I And that's exactly what you did. You protected the people by saying this is a problem.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah, I think it's really important to understand how um how author like how authority works. Um so like I'm a medical professional and in some ways like uh I do what I do because I have a tendency to question authority um in service of um like the human-animal bond and the human environmental bond. And and it is very clear where authority structures are designed to particularly to reduce the amount of questions that are asked. Um and that and that is a form of authority that uh is actually more of a I don't want there's probably people who have more expertise in this as far as philosophically, politically, that kind of thing. It's a very like Western and American style, or and also like empirically when we talk about like um how do states function to control um citizenry for whatever reason, right? It's not exclusive to the United States, but we are are taught that authority structures are so for reasons. So to go beyond to to question, to question authority and take those steps and take that risk and use your voice that is a that feels uncomfortable because we have been instructed for such a long time to uh follow or obey. Yeah, conform, yeah. Yeah, and conform. And so and and it is important for dissent and questioning to happen because that is how we evaluate or critically evaluate or engage in accountability.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

And so for you to use your voice and structures that have in some ways like we question like how is accountability happening? How are citizens how are politicians held accountable to the voices of the citizens? And and that has been something that has been a challenge or a fight um in this country, and not just this country in general, right? It's a long trail, like you say, like history, right? So you don't feel like sometimes this reflects that understanding of history. So I think that you you push through, and I think that's really important. And it's also good to see how you shared like parts of your journey, and like you know, it's not easy to speak up, but it's a yeah, it's not fun.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

So, what was what was the reception when you did speak up?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, so when I um yeah, so I'm contacting all these people, I'm contacting my leaders. Um, I'm speaking with the local newspaper, um, and I'm I'm trying to address this problem as best I can. And the only way I can address this was telling them my concerns and just tell the truth. Look, this is being put up without notifying the public, and that's unacceptable. The public has a right to be notified about this. This needs to be a conversation, a very long conversation before we even step into this type of territory. Like this is a revolutionary idea that we now all of a sudden think we have the right to just track people, right? That's that's a very it's an old idea, but it's new for us because this is something that we've rejected for a while, but now we're all of a sudden changing, or or our leaders are saying now we're changing our minds. I don't buy it. I think if you notify the public, they're gonna disagree with you, and that's obviously the case. So when I'm sharing all this, um I I finally speak with Ethan

Suspended for Naming the Problem

SPEAKER_01 21:35

from the Valley Breeze. He does an article about what I tell him, and I tell him to use my name. And the reason why I told him to use my name, because I knew if I did it anonymously, no one was gonna take it seriously. And I also tell him to use my name because if I I was hoping that if the public knew that a police officer was concerned and that they need to be concerned as well. And so when he did that, um I got suspended for that pretty much immediately. I did certain I did 30 days without pay for that.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Did you, when you talked to the reporter, did you anticipate that was gonna happen? Or was that something?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah, I knew. I'm not I'm not naive. So I I knew that I was gonna be disciplined for that and I thought it was worth it. I had a I had a conversation with my wife before I did all this because I was having trouble sleeping, and um, you know, I was yeah, I was having trouble being at peace with myself because I was hesitating a lot, and um, I was coming up with the typical excuses like, well, someone else is gonna do it eventually. Um, it's been three years and that has not happened. I've been the only police officer in the country so far.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

Um seriously, yeah. So you've really changed history then. I mean, you've been uh seriously, like you have been a catalyst in that. I mean, you must be on some level really proud of that.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, I I am proud. I mean, yeah, the thing is it makes it it makes me sad though. And and the reason why is because you know, the it's difficult to articulate because now I don't see myself, but I'm I'm sure some of my coworkers or maybe people who are more institutionalists and see them, they they probably they might see me as an enemy. Um, and I don't see myself that way. I I see myself as a f as their friend. You know, I love my coworkers, even even despite what happened to me. Because I've seen what they've gone through and I've seen what they sacrificed and I've seen what they suffered and the things that no one has seen. And um, you know, I think what they do is very important, and I think it's noble. And so I saw my profession doing my profession doing something that was against what we're supposed to do. And I'm trying to, you know, my best to reform, you know, reform or to prevent us from making a big mistake. And so, you know, I I put myself in a difficult position because I never, you know, I never wanted to be a dissident or you know, someone who goes against the the idea of the profession and I don't see that what I'm doing, but I knew others were gonna see that, and that that that hurt me, you know, and I didn't and I didn't want to put my family through any financial burdens, which happened. And so you know, I I I am proud, but it's it's a it's a weird place to be in because I I'm in this, you know, I've I've made myself an outsider to what I've known. And um people are gonna view me with suspicion about why I did what I did, which is fine. Um so yeah, it's it's it's I'm conflicted, you know, and and I and I know that confliction in in some ways is healthy because you should always be you should always question yourself and your motives of why you're doing what you're doing. You should never think you're some um some ascetic that has it all figured out and that your intentions are all right and and they're all correct and that you're doing everything for the right reasons. I think it is healthy that you constantly question yourself and why you're doing what it is that you're doing. So that it's just in my nature, and it's also in my nature to be agreeable, surprisingly enough. Um, I'm agreeable by nature, and I don't I don't like to ruffle feathers and I don't like to make enemies. So it was very uncomfortable for me.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

So I can I reframe it just a little bit because I don't think I again, I don't think you put yourself in a bad position. They put they put you in a bad position, right? So like you you didn't do anything wrong here. And I don't see you as like you talked about being a dissident. I don't see you as somebody who's you had nothing to gain from this, right? So if anything, you had everything to lose from it. You were your motive was exactly what you're saying. Your motive was to protect the people, to protect the citizens, to you know, to ensure people's privacy, which is what everybody who goes into law enforcement uh is supposed to be doing. So if people see you as an enemy, then maybe they should question their job. Because you certainly did what you were supposed to do. So I just want to put that out there that I I do think what you did was incredibly brave. And you there always has to be a first step, right? Somebody has to be brave enough to take that first step, and you were brave enough to take that first step. Yeah. That's appreciated. That's that's amazing. Like, seriously, like so many people wouldn't have that courage to do that.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Yeah, and I appreciate it, you know, and I'm and I'm grateful for my wife because she said, Noelle, you know, you need to do you need to do what's right, and we'll deal with the consequences as a family. So I really couldn't do without her. And um, because when I was sharing what I was gonna do, because I I shared it before, I was like, I need to take this step and address this problem. I had a lot of people in my life personal that said, Noel, they they pretty much said all the same thing, like that's very honorable what you're gonna do, but um, you know, leave that for some other idiot to go do it. You have a family, you know, you got two kids, you know, think about that and you know, maybe just stay in line and keep your mouth shut like the rest of us. You know, that was pretty much the script that was being read to me over and over again. And um, and I understand, and it's like you said, people feel forced into this position of conformity because if not, they've they they have this intuition that they they're going to get hammered, right? So if they do identify a problem and they want to address that problem, like it's not worth it. You know, that's kind of like the zeitgeist right now. It's not worth it. You know, it's not worth it, it's not worth it. Let someone else do it, let some other idiot do it, you know. So, but I had my wife, she supported me from the beginning. My older brother did, my brother Manuel, he supported me from the beginning. And so I had those two people behind me. And you was your mother supportive too? So my mother, she supported, she supported the it, she was mixed. She's like, I understand. Yeah, she's like, Noelle, I you're right, and you know, this is wrong, but she's like, maybe sit on it, like maybe not do it, you know. Like, you know, I don't, I don't know, Noel. I don't know if this is the right thing. She was thinking about my kids, and she was thinking about my wife, Emily. And my mother struggled her whole life to take care of us. She was a single mother, she raised four of us by herself, and um she didn't want us to see us grow through that financial instability. So she did it. Well, she certainly did a good job. I mean, tell you can tell her, I I said that she did a good job. Well, my my mother, yeah, my mother's a very special person. Clearly. I don't want to go off topic, but you know, she you know, she she beat addiction, you know, she beat, you know, she beat poverty, she beat abuse, you know, and she raised all of us by herself. And um she taught us to forgive people, she taught us to have compassion for people, she taught us to, you know, be responsible for every word that we say, for every action that we do. These are a lot of things that my mother taught us. And one thing that she also taught me too, and my brothers and my sister was you're also responsible for other people. You're not just responsible for yourself. It's just it's just like this idea that Dosta Evsky had, right? Like, you're not just responsible for everything you do, but everything everything else, every everyone else does. It's a pretty crazy thing that he says, but pretty it's pretty much what my mother echoed throughout our lives. Like, you're not only responsible for you and your family, but you're responsible for everyone in your community. So if you fail to act honorably, you not only hurt yourself, you hurt everyone else. So she she put that burden on us at a pretty young age, that you know, you're responsible for everyone around you. And you can make excuses, but you know, if you stay when you stand before God, you know, you're not gonna have any excuses. That's pretty much that's pretty much what she was trying to she was trying to hammer into us. So, you know, a lot a lot of my morals come from her and my two older brothers, because I'm the youngest by nine years. Wow. Okay. And so my older brothers were also a big influence on me. So yeah, so I I went through, I did it anyway, despite um these, you know, these people giving these objections to me, which were out of love, not a nine out of ten times. These

Retaliation Tactics and Union Silence

SPEAKER_01 30:25

people objecting against me were out of love. They just didn't want to see me get hurt. They didn't want to, they didn't want me to suffer. And so I did it, and then I got suspended a total of four times throughout this time. Four times?

SPEAKER_04 30:38

So what did they suspend you, bring you back, and suspend you again?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah, so what it was is they were they were playing the whole game of of oh hey, we you know, we looked at your body cam footage and we see that you're you know, you you yelled at someone, or you didn't tow me, or you didn't tow this car, or you didn't tow this car, or you didn't you didn't take this report that no one ever has taken in Patucky PD history, or you missed this traffic court date, which is the first time you miss in your entire career, and cops miss traffic court dates all the time and they don't get suspended. So they were playing that game. So they were she was looking, the chief in the administration, they were they were you you could make a criminal or out of anyone, of course. If I follow you for 24 hours, I could find something I can arrest you for. Of course. I mean, that's my train. That's very easy, of course. Yeah, or write you a ticket, any person. So that's what they were doing with me. And with the policeman, it's it's easier because we have a body cam, right? And they know our location all the time, and you know, so it's it's easier to get someone in trouble in my position. And and to give myself kudos, though, it I only got suspended four times in the two-year period because I went through this in a two-year period. So I I thought out to be honest, I thought I was gonna get in more trouble. Um, I did you did you have recourse?

SPEAKER_04 31:55

There's a union, right? Like, is there anything that you could have done?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

So my you so my union. My union, it looked like they didn't tell me this, but the vibe that I was getting from them was you othered yourself, you went on your own and you othered yourself, and so we're we're not so we're punching we're punishing you now. Not even punishing you, but we're not gonna protect you. Right. So they they weren't involved in the punishment, but they didn't protect me from it either. So that was the that that's what the vibe that I got was you othered yourself, now you deal with this problem on your own. So that's what I got from them. And a lot of my coworkers seeing what I went through, they were very upset about it. Um, they were very hurt that it they they knew that what I was going through was unfair. But they, especially my my closest co-work, they didn't know what to do, they didn't know how to address the problem. And I didn't feel comfortable asking people to band together with me. And um, I I don't know. I really don't know what the solution would have been. I mean, the the solution would have been that the union would have, the union, the representatives would have addressed the problem and been more forceful and protecting me. That would have been the solution. But since they were doing that, I didn't know I didn't know what the solution could have been other than for me eventually leaving, which is what I did. But my my coworkers felt very stuck, they felt very sorry for me. Um they didn't know what to do for me except tell them tell me that you know that they felt sorry for the situation. And I think in a weird way, what I went through, not in a weird way, but actually what I went through was a blessing because it kind of proved my point. It proved my point because I'm this one guy who said this is a bad idea, and they went out of their way to silence me and punish me for it. Which was one of the which was one of my objections to this technology was I said, if we let this run wild, or if we let this, if we let this go, it's going to be used uh to quell to to to to go against people who have a differencing of opinion against the government.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

What's interesting what's interesting is their attempt to silence you has amplified you. Exactly. You know, so like it's which is good. I mean, I'm glad that you because it now, you know, you did the YouTube video, and I think you know, people have been talking about you and you're in the Valley Breeze, and now you're on a podcast. I mean, they have amplified your voice by by doing what they did.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Yeah, so they did me a favor. They did, yeah, yeah. They they I realized that they did me a favor. Um so yeah, so I I went through that for two years because then I I wasn't stopping, even though I was gonna suspend it. Then I went to the state house because uh Joe Solomon, he invited me to go speak at the oversight committee to give my opinion. So that caused me some more suspension, some more problems. So I wasn't stopping. Um I just kept I just kept doing what I was doing.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Did you did you know you were gonna get like that you were gonna they were pushing you out? Like, did you know that?

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Yeah, yeah. After the second time I was investigating, I'm like, oh, I see what they're doing. They're they're building a case, quote, against me to show, oh no, he's a problem. We're not we're not we're not punishing him because of his opinion. No, it's because he's a problem. But every everyone in the department knew that that's ridiculous. Like, I had a reputation of kind of being a boy scout. Everyone knows that I'm not out here pulling people over and beating them on the side of the road. They they all they all and I was never even accused of that ever. But they all my co-workers knew that what they were doing was because of my opinion. My co I had supervisors admit this, that they were I was being punished, not because of I did anything actually wrong, but because of my because of my opinion. I had supervisors admit this to my face. Well, it's not your opinion, it's because you're honest. Well, yeah, yeah, not even yeah, exactly. I'm just stating a fact that that's all you put up. Yeah, these were put up without notifying the public and that this is a bad idea. That's all I was. I wasn't saying anything original. I'm not that I'm not that intelligent. Like I'm I'm just saying what I saw.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

You're saying committed to like values. I think that can be really difficult. Like, I think that we can probably like could you I would love Matthew at some point for us to discuss about this, like when that cognitive dissonance between separation of values, like commitment of you know, like there's a lot of exercises in which people yeah, like it's just one of those things of our commitment to values and like how how people can say to you also, being like this is this is kind of about that, and like we know that distinction, and and how many people stand by right and yeah, and have that continue. I think that's really hard, and I think that's important to look at it as another example of like the layers of how the absence of people using their voices is contributing to some of these problems. And it's that you had to go through that like kind of in without anyone like standing by your side. I think that makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah, well, yeah, Nietzsche says something along the lines that people don't earn their virtues until they suffer for them.

SPEAKER_04 37:07

You know, he he had this insight that I think it's funny you just called yourself not intelligent, but like you are incredibly intelligent.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Come on. Well, so Socrates says he was he was a fool. So if Socrates says he was a fool, I think nobody has the right to call themselves intelligent. You're clearly very educated, so like Yeah, I do I do I do a bit of reading, yeah. So but yeah, it's is it what you were saying, yeah, people have their values, but then they don't they don't follow them, right? You know, they they they that's that's just a human universal. Like if you read any religious text I've noticed or any mythological text or anything, that that's a human problem that we have our values, we have we have these things that we um we realize are honorable, but when it comes down to it, we've we fall short. Um that's that's a universal problem, and then every now and then we do something that really surprises ourselves, and we we we we do adhere to our values, and then we pay the price for it, but we earn the rewards later, you know. Yeah, I think that's what's happening

Resignation, NDAs, and Starting Over

SPEAKER_01 38:15

now.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

No well, what was the final straw? Like what was the uh what was like the last?

SPEAKER_01 38:21

So what was the final straw? Was uh one of my sergeants lied. He said I did something I didn't do. He was actually the one who first investigated me in internal affairs, and he became the traffic sergeant. He said, so he wanted me to tow a gentleman's car. It was during a snowstorm, and someone gave him so in the ordinance of Pawtucket, like most places, if if you don't move your car during the snowplow, you get a hundred dollar ticket. So this guy had a hundred dollar ticket on his car, but the the officer didn't tow him. So I knew that he wanted to cut the guy brake, and it looked like the this guy's car was involved in an accident. So it looked like he's like, I'll give him a hundred dollars a day, but I'm not gonna tow his car. Like, it looks like the guy's going through some stuff. So I didn't tow it either. I refused when I got dispatched there. And he ordered me to tow it. I did, I followed the order and I did anyway. So after I told it, I went to go have a conversation with her. I said, Look, you're the first person in seven years to step on my toes for a traffic violation. And I just want to know why. Like, why are you doing this? And I'm insinuating that it's probably because of who I am. He's probably doing this, but I'm trying to be respectful. So he lied and said that like I like accosted him and that I was combative. And there was a witness there. There was a witness who defended me and said that did not happen. And even though there was a witness there who defended me, they decided to believe him. So I knew that I had this is this was the end that I had to go because now I can't even be protected from blatant lies. Because the things I were getting in trouble for were half true. They were half true, half you know, nonsense, like you know, but this was a complete lie. So I was like, all right, this is this is the end for me. Um, I need to go and find something else to do. So I gave him my letter of resignation, and um, yeah, I I and I left. This was July 2025, and so when I left, I thought for a year pretty much, what do I do now? Not in terms of work, because you know, I'll I'll find something, whatever. Um, but how do I address this problem now? Because you know, I I did my best, I tried to tell my leaders, I tried to address the issue, and I paid the price for that, and that's fine. I'm sure I'll get over it one day. That that was that was my mentality at the time. But all right, what do I do now? But I was too angry, I was really angry. I'd never been that angry before. So I knew that if I spoke while feeling that angry, that whatever came out of my mouth would not be good. I knew that I was gonna use it as an opportunity to just get back at the people who wronged me. Or I was gonna um, you know, if if I said what I said, maybe I might, yeah, I might try to make people take side. I don't know. I I knew that if I spoke within with it with having that spirit in me, that it wasn't gonna be good. Right. So I knew I needed time to think and time to let that go before I sp before I spoke up. So about when six months went by, I felt that anger go away about after six months, and I didn't want to hurt them anymore. That wasn't that that that feeling of vengeance wasn't in me anymore. Now I just felt sad. I felt sad that I went through that. I felt sad that you know they're in a place where they're you know, they're they're willing to do something like that. Like, so I knew now I was in a place where I can now talk about it. So by this time it's like January, February, I get involved with D Flock. Um, I get involved with a reporter from Wired. They're actually, I think they're gonna do a story on me this week, finally. So I was speaking for with them for like four or five months. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, so I now felt at a place to speak with people about this problem because now I wasn't angry anymore. And then in June, when I finally did, or July, right? July, when I did the video with my friend, my friend Ray, I felt like now I was able to articulate my argument in a way that was fair and honest. And I I made sure that it was important to end the video with telling people, you know, to forgive, you know, and not not, you know, not be looking out for blood. So I I knew, yeah, so I knew that if I if I wanted to address this problem properly, I I had to not be angry. So that took six months. And then I had to come up with a way to articulate my position and why I feel the way that I feel, and that took another couple months, and now we're here. So it was a it was a year long, it took a it basically a year for me to get to the position where I knew that I was able to deal with the problem properly or as properly as I can. Um, so that's pretty much the timeline. There's a lot of you know, crumbs and you know, specifics in between that, but that's pretty much all the important stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

It's I mean, you you went through a grieving process, right? So like you you grieved.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Pretty much it felt like a divorce. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Well, but I think you grieved a couple things. I think you grieved what the idea was of the job that you had because what you thought it was didn't match up with what actually happened. And then you're you're probably grieving the loss of like co-workers and you know that environment and an identity. An identity, right? So, like, how did what did you like? What do you do now? Like, how did you bounce back from that?

SPEAKER_01 43:41

So uh right now I I'm working as a caregiver. Um, I'll be switching jobs next week, actually. So I I became which is funny, they're kind of very different jobs caregiver and a policeman. But that was the because uh I in this process I was applying to other departments and none of them were hiring me. And someone told me a gentleman who fell bad. About what I was going. He was one of the police officers at Rhode Island College. And he told me they're not they're not hiring you because Tina, the the chief, she's telling them not to hire you. He told me that that's why I wasn't getting hired. Because she wanted me to sign an NDA and I refused. Good for you. And the deal was if I signed the NDA that I would I would get another job somewhere. That was the deal. Well, that's how they get people, right? To stay silent, you know. Yeah. And I I've actually had a few police co old co-workers called me and said that happened to them too. Because apparently Patucket's really, really corrupt.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

So it's funny you say that. It's funny you say that. So I have a one of my colleagues, social worker, her husband's a police officer. And she actually used to work in, I forgot what town she was in, but she worked in like she was a liaison for like the domestic violence that was happening, so that she would go out. And um, I said to her when I when I reached out to you, I was like, Oh, I was like so excited. So I was telling her about it. And um I said, I thought when Socket was the worst corrupt police force in the state of Rhode Island, and she goes, No, it's Pawtucket. I was like, Well, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah, so I what I've heard, because I had a couple of people call me, that it goes deeper than this. So the the the accusation that I've been told is that the mayor is very corrupt. I've heard that. And that yeah, that that the mayor is very corrupt, and that the only reason why the chief is there, Tina, is because she put up she puts up with his corruption and they kind of they kind of they let each other's sins go, so to speak. Yeah, so that's what I've been told. I was told by uh an old co-worker who he left, he found something that he should not have found, and he tried to address it, and he went through what I went through, and they made him sign an NDA so he could get his pension.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

So he he so to I I want to just I want to parallel. I know I've said this to you a couple of times, but I really want it to because you're very humble, and I I do want it to kind of sink in like the impact of what you did. So years ago, you know about the bridge problem we have in the Rhode Island, right? With the bridge disaster. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

So you That's another thing I've been hearing about for years that everyone knew was corrupt, but no one did anything about it.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

So I could tell you firsthand. So long time ago, over 10 years ago, um, my ex is a he's a civil engineer, and he particularly he specifically designed bridges. And he would tell me what bridges not to drive over or under because he would say to me they weren't inspected, they just lied about it. Ah, Jesus. So, and that was like, like I said, that was over 10 years ago, and he never blew the whistle on it, right? Like he just kind of sat on it and he moved out of the state, right? So, like, so I you really did I really want this to sink in with you because I want you to like hear this. That you what you did was incredible. It really was. I mean, it it takes a bit you had said that going into caretaking is very different from being a police officer. I would disagree because I actually think you are a caretaker, period. And I I don't think it matters what profession you go into. So, like if you went into like science, some sort of science, you'd still be a caretaker. When you were in police, you were a caretaker. You know, now you're working as a caretaker. So I mean it's it's you, it's not the like you you're taking yourself to each job.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Oh, I appreciate it. Yeah, no, it's funny. Yeah, when I first started the caregiver, I'm like, man, this is so different. But then after about four months, I'm like, no, this is pretty much the same thing. I'm taking some I'm taking care of someone who can't take care of themselves. Exactly. It's the same thing. Which is what a fireman and a police officer do. They take care of people, they protect people who can't protect themselves. I think it's what I think it's what you do. I appreciate it, yeah. So I I realized, and also too, the caregiver too, because um it made me realize, and this is a separate conversation. I don't want to get too out of topic. I didn't realize how broken the metal, the medical system was in terms of his insurance. Oh, we could we could have all that's another that's a two-hour yeah, because I'm gonna be I'm gonna be honest with you when I because you know I was I was privileged, I was blessed. I had blue cross blue shield, man, from from Pataka Police. So when I was hearing people complaining about health insurance all the time, I'm like, come on, let's get the blue cross blue shield, bro. You know, but when I when I was when I worked with worked with this family, and I'm and I'm working with the mom and her son who I help take care of, and I'm seeing all the appointments that they get ping-ponged to, and this I was like, oh my god, man, this system is really broken, like everyone's been complaining about. Oh yeah. And and like I said, it's complicated, it's complicated too. It's not uh it's not really easy who you blame, but it it's it's broken. But you know, seeing what they went through, it it was it was I it was I it was eye-opening to see, you know, and also to see just how that population is treated, like the disabled community, the special needs community, people with addictions, what they go through. Yeah, addiction. I saw that in Potaka, but I was dealing now for the first time I'm dealing with people in the special needs community and all that, people with severe disabilities.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

Did you ever watch the documentary The House I Live In? It was actually part of it was filmed in Providence. That's why I was asked. I was No, I gotta watch it. It's um The House I Lived In. The House I Live In. I think it's you can get it on Amazon Prime. Um, it's about the you know, the drug war. Um, but it's but there was a they followed a couple police officers of Providence and they openly admitted to like profiling people and they were kind of like laughing at people on the street that were using drugs. I mean, it was really horrible. Um, it's definitely worth looking into.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Um Yeah, something I want to give credit to my coworkers about. There's a lot of things to give credit, but one thing they they taught me when I first got on, because there's a lot of addiction in Pawtucket, they taught me, Noelle, we don't we don't uh we don't arrest addicts. They told me that right off we don't arrest addicts, they're sick, we arrest drug dealers. Um, but we don't arrest addicts. So if you find an addict um and they got a crack pipe on them or whatever, you didn't see it because though those people don't need to be in jail.

SPEAKER_04 50:01

Um I appreciate that they're doing that, but on the flip side of it, I would also say that referring to people as addicts is really dehumanizing because it's referring to them as a pathology and not like an actual person. And that's something I've been trying to change in the the field for like decades, like at least a decade. Because Yeah, what would you um what would you refer to them as? A person with an addiction. Person with an addiction? Because the easy the easiest way to like make people disposable is to is to take away their identity and just say, like, oh, those addicts over there, right? Those junkies, like whatever, because then they don't become human, they just become a pathology. But they're so much more than somebody with an addiction. I mean, their whole entire I mean, you know this because you said you had some of it in your family, right? There are entire people that have had like whole histories and like trauma and like all sorts of stuff, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

No, I I see what you're saying. I I mean to defend them a little bit, it didn't feel that way from them when they were say, uh, you know, or anyone. It it just felt like they viewed it as a disease. Yeah. I think it's very yeah, they they they viewed it as a disease. So it's I guess to use an example, if when they were saying that or when I would say that, it was like I don't know, that quadruple, you know, is would it be better to say a person with uh a person with a disability? Perhaps so. But you know, they they to defend them, they were they were saying, look, this this is a person who right now their identity is that they're uh some someone with addiction in the street, and um our job as a police is not to arrest them and give them a hard time, but kind of you know, let them live their lives and that they need it if we need to give them narcane, we give them narcane. If we need to take them to hospital, but we're not here to give them a hard time. So I want to give credit to my co-workers because they taught me that. They taught me that you know the the best way to deal with people dealing with addiction is to first start with compassion. So I learned that from them. I learned that from them, and my mother too, obviously. But dealing with it in the street, I learned that from them. They taught me that. So I want to give them credit for that.

SPEAKER_04 52:08

And that's a whole nother topic, by the way, because the reason why addiction is getting worse and worse every year is because of how many systemic failures we have. And yeah, that's by design. I mean, we have one of the worst treatment outcomes in the world in terms of like relapse rates and like what people are accessing. So um, it definitely is a difficult question. I've I have found, by the way, like just on a side, um, I do want to get back to what happened, but as a as a quick side, because I've also volunteered to like go to the police station that my office in the town and have like offered them trainings, have even offered student interns at one point when I was taking student interns, and they said no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. They didn't want anything to do with like mental health whatsoever. Okay. And I was like shocked by that, but I guess not really. Yeah, at the police department. Yeah, at the police department, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Yeah, I know it it's it's difficult because I don't know if if someone's having a mental health crisis, do you really want the police to be showing up at their house? That's a tough question.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

No, I I meant for them, I meant for the police officers, not but not for the people that they were going out to.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

I'm sorry, I misunder. Yeah, I misunderstood.

SPEAKER_04 53:21

No, like like self-care and like how to like deal with like trauma and like you know, okay, yeah, things like that. But oh I see for the police, for the police themselves.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:30

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Yeah, oh, I mean, yeah, good luck. Uh yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

Because their whole their whole grasp on mental health, is you good? Yeah, okay, you're good. Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Yeah, well, yeah, there's it's multi-layer. The the first thing is um you're dealing with a group of men. Men have their way of dealing with things that are different, especially it you're dealing with police. So these are these are basically like soldiers in in their in their the way they carry themselves and the mentality. So they're gonna have a way of dealing with mental health problems that so really the the way we dealt with it was humor. Police have the sickest uh sense of humor ever.

SPEAKER_04 54:04

Oh, listen, I worked in an abortion clinic at one time. I guarantee you the humor there was a lot sicker.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Oh, yeah, yeah. So a lot of yeah, yeah, yeah. The way they deal with is humor, uh, alcohol is a big one. I I don't have to tell you that. You know that. Alcohol is a big one. The ones that deal with it well, um, I notice what they all have in common. The ones that deal with them well is that uh they have a great they have a great family that they can turn to, and they have something that they do that's outside of work. So like they're a gym rat or they're they golf every Saturday, or I don't know, they volunteer at their church every one.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

Or they engage in therapy.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Or they engage in therapy, yeah. They they what they all had in common that dealt with the things that work properly is that they had their network of friends and family that was healthy, and they had this other thing that they did that has nothing to do with their job. I noticed those are the all the ones that dealt with work, the things that work properly. All the ones that didn't, they didn't have that, you know, and they either turned to drinking or uh they they they had you know they're cheating on their wives or whatever, you know, they have an affair, you know, they they dealt with it in a

Abuse Risks and Community Pushback

SPEAKER_01 55:10

in a bad way.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Oh yeah, the the infidelity rates are really high, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Yeah, very high.

SPEAKER_04 55:14

Very high. Yeah, very high. Um and speaking, which I did before I forget to, like one of the things I wanted to highlight about the flock cameras was the argument that they will, you know, if the the pro argument is that if we put them up, we'll be able to catch people if they kidnap kids and all of that that fun stuff. But there's already been what I think 20 cases of police officers using flock cameras to stalk their partners.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

I think it's about 50 now. It's 50? I think, yeah. Washington Post just did an article um this week, last week, and they had I think they interviewed about 50 victims.

SPEAKER_04 55:49

Wow. So it's clearly being abused, and it's oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

It's I had I had someone so someone's uh a Providence police detective just admit to one of my friends that it's being used in Providence and they know about it and they won't address it. Oh, I'm not surprised. He just admitted that. Yeah, so I that was something I warned too three years ago. I said, I said, look, one of the things that it's gonna be used for is that um corrupt police officers are gonna use it to stalk their their girlfriends, their ex-wives. And they told me that I was crazy for even suggesting such a thing. Um this was during in one of the IN interviews because they they asked me, well, why do why you what's what's your objections now? You're gonna explain yourself. Um and I said a bunch of things, and that was one of the things that I said. I said, It's gonna be used by people to to stalk their partners, and it's gonna be used by corporate politicians to use it to track their political opponents. I'm like, I didn't even think about that. I'm like, isn't this obvious that this is gonna happen? And they told me that I was irresponsible for even suggesting such a thing, and unfortunately, it's that's exactly what's happened.

SPEAKER_04 56:55

I've no I've worked with some people in the state that have run for office, like local offices against incumbents that have been there for a really long time. And I multiple people, and I've heard stories of them getting run off the road, I've heard stories of them being stalked by people, and oh sure. Yeah, I believe it. In Rhode Island, of course, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Yeah, no, I believe it. Yeah, so that was that was something I was trying, like I said, I I love the profession, and I didn't want to see it taint itself any more than it's already had. And I didn't want to see that happen. And so I said, look, that's what's gonna happen. You know, because every profession has a temptation. Um, every profession. So therapists, physicians, artists, whatever, and a profession in policing is control. That's a temptation that police officers have to wrestle with. Having, you know, this idea of having control when when is too when is where there when where there's too much control, you know, that's a temptation that officers struggle with. Um, it just comes with the territory. So I knew that this was gonna just give an opportunity for that temptation to be fulfilled.

SPEAKER_04 57:57

I think if we had more police like you, honestly, I think we'd have a I think people would have a better attitude about police in general. And unfortunately, you know, and Erica and I have gone against our professions too. Like Erica and I have been consistently talking about genocide since it started happening. And I know particularly I was told by many people, like, you're gonna get canceled. Don't talk about genocide. You can't talk about genocide, you're gonna like and I was like, I don't care. Yeah, I was like, I don't care. I will be talking about it until it stops.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

I'm sorry, I'm not I'm not really on the internet. Is it still a debate of whether or not what's happening in Gaza is a genocide?

SPEAKER_04 58:34

It's not a debate. It is, I mean, it is a genocide. No, no, no, that's that's that's my question.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Oh yeah, no, they're still debating. Oh yeah, they're they're oh really. I don't want to go, I don't want to go off course, but what's the what's the argument that it's not?

SPEAKER_02 58:47

It's the same things being repeated.

SPEAKER_04 58:49

It's the exact same nonsense as before. Like it's not actually happening and like kids aren't being killed, kids aren't being killed, or if they are being killed, they deserve it because they're all like all of the all of the buildings they bob have tunnels and like they're all small.

SPEAKER_02 59:04

I mean, there's been masks off. There's been further masks off if people were actually to inform themselves by looking at what Israeli leadership is is saying, you know, I think a lot of it is the ostrich head in the head in the sand, not willing to confront, right? By not actually looking for information about what and and what that means. And so even though like and a lot of people just um choose to ignore the fact that there are still like thousands of Palestinians that have been killed since the ceasefire, right? Okay, um, and people are choosing to like I I live in in a borderlands area, right? I live in Phoenix. Um we understand how um the surveillance technology utilized on the Palestinian population and the military equipment and those technologies um are implemented or are come to the borders first. And we've seen those um cameras be the and technology being implemented at the border and some of the militarization that has continued. And so you know, with the ways that other um, for example, like how ICE behaves and these things are like things that people experience it differently across the country in different ways, and um there people are unwilling to acknowledge or realize that the um you know um Palestine is used as a as a testing ground. And this is well known and well understood. And as we see, we we've seen this progression of surveillance happen over the time as well as as things have has been going happening. So we we could probably have a lot of conversations and I really appreciate the look on your face. Like I would like this is of the the like when you're like people are still people are questioning this, right? I I really value that and I think also when you were talking about the temptation of every pre profession, yeah. I think that's very important.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Um what your tempt temptation is, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Yeah, and like for me in my industry as veterinary medicine, the temptation is um because I go into work and help animals every day, that that is the end of where my duty lies. That is the temptation of saying that because I help animals, that means that I do not have to do anything else. That's what I I view as what the temptation that I observe amongst the animal care or animal welfare field when we're saying is that I care for animals, I care for the animals, but what about the people? Right. The people are included in this, and and that our awareness has to also extend beyond our borders um because we're an international profession. And so um, I don't know if you ever heard of Dr. Muat. So Dr. Muat was um one of the few, um, the the there are you know many talented veterinarians in Gaza who are still trying to keep food systems alive and keep education alive and keep donkeys alive that are that are now functioning as ambulances and and help like and and um and I have not been able to get along with my colleagues, have not been able to get a single institution to use their voice to condemn the use of animals in torturing people as far as military dogs that have been utilized to murder um um people, like a woman and an autistic young, a young autistic man. Um and like there's so it's like where if you don't speak out about where your ethical core is, like I and so um you know I have a a relationship with policing and carceral systems that you and I could probably talk about. And also like I agree with Matthew, like if if people were more involved in the concept of public safety and protection and and standing up ethical values of protecting people, um you know our systems don't do that. Right, just like veterinary medicine taking care of some of the most privileged animals on the planet does not like mean that you that you don't have to use your voice when there's bombs falling on can on food systems elsewhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

We all um no, we actually did. We interviewed um too. You you might be interested, uh we did an episode with two dog trainers who talked about the use of police dogs and how um a lot of times they violate rights because they're attacking people that they haven't even charged

Final Advice and Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_04 1:03:50

yet. And it was a pretty interesting episode. I figured I'd plug that, but um I do want I do want to thank you for your time. Um, I I feel like it's been a privilege to meet you and talk to you. And I really do I consider you a hero, and I mean that sincerely. And I thank you for all the work that you did. So, whatever you're doing caretaking right now, the people are lucky to have you. I just want to say that. Um and can I can I add your YouTube video to the description of the of the uh podcast? Sure, yeah, you're more than welcome to. Is there anything else you want to add that we didn't talk about that you think is important? Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

I I guess what I'll the last thing I'll add is um if anyone heard this conversation and um they're they're being aware of the flock cameras and they're being installed in their cities, I'm sure they're very angry about this. So I I think the only thing I would warn against is um you know not instead of looking for enemies, look look for friends. You know, looking instead of looking for people to blame, uh who's responsible to I guess look for people that you can band with and try to uh address this problem as peacefully and as um as cordially as possible. You know, because I I've been seeing in the news recently, you know, a lot of people really frustrated and now they're knocking these things down. Um and I understand that, but um, I would actually warn against that because if we start you know doing things like that, they're gonna people who are pro for this are gonna crystallize in their positions and they're gonna use it as an attack. Um you see, we need to have these cameras because you have these crazy terrorists or whatever, these radicals coming around knocking these cameras down, and that's why we need it. So if if I could give one piece of advice, if anyone cares about any advice I can give is um in addressing this problem, try to deal with it as peacefully as possible, look for friends, try to understand and hear and and and thankfully it's gonna be mostly people from the state, it's not gonna be a lot of people in the population. But if you meet people who are pro this surveillance, talk to them, understand their point of view, try to be the Their friend, and you know, don't make the mistake that we're talking about, for example, in Gaza, where you dehumanize people who don't have your position, but instead, you know, understand where they're coming from and try to just argue your position and um see where they're coming from. So that that's the only thing I would want to end on is um when now that people are gonna are addressing this more nationally, try not to fall into that temptation of just seeing them as your enemy. But maybe they're just missing something, or maybe they're just not they lack the the courage to say what they really think or whatever, but just you know, try to see them as a kind of like a prodigal son, someone who's just a little lost, and maybe they just need to they just need to be shown a different perspective and hopefully the right perspective. So that's that's the only thing I would say.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Yeah, I think that's together with your neighbors.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:45

I think that's great advice. Um, I sometimes I think we've hit the point where that's not going to be as effective as it used to be. You know, I think of sometimes like Stonewall, right? So, like for things where there's an act of something that happened that was violent that created some sort of change. I'm not advocating for violent, I'm just saying that I think sometimes CIA CIA is watching this map.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

Be careful.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:07

We are listening I'm on tons of lists. I know I'm on tons of lists, I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:13

So what I would say is there are so where I live, for example, um, Chandler City has recently said that they are not going to um good uh like renew their contract. So, like, look, there are points of pressure that can be utilized, organize in community, show up to city council, have conversations, understand where the money is going and how it how it's impacting your community. Um, we have to use our voices collectively at the local level. I know that a lot of people have been disengaged for that, but that is what impacts your life the most.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

So there are reasons why to push against these things. And then there are also strategies, okay. Also be aware that there's other places where our surveillance is happening that we have to use our voices and also decide sometimes with our feet, because it is not just um state and private, like there are things in our grocery stores that are engaged in surveillance, and this is another place where they use private companies to evade our civil rights um and our privacy. And you can also do things voting with how you use your dollar, how you use your feet, how you work with community, and how you or organize community safety to say that we can work together to address our our protecting our neighbors and working together to to how should I say start start from there. So I really appreciate you and I really appreciate your purpose.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

Exactly. And I and I'll say one final thing is something a reporter said to me that thought was just it was just perfect from Wired. He said, he said, this thing is one of the four things in our country we're all together on. He says, and those four things are Epstein sucks, data centers suck, houses are too expensive, and flock cameras suck. So he's like, let's keep it that way. Let's keep it like let's let's stay let's stay together. Yeah, let's stay together on this, let's stay together and not bicker about nonsense that doesn't matter is about what makes it different, but let's let's stay together on this and keep it that way, and we'll we'll win in the end. So he told me that, and I thought that was so simple but so brilliant. So that's what I would say. Let's keep it simple, guys. We agree on the important things little by little. So let's let's try to keep it that way.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:28

Well, thank you both. And again, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I think our listeners are gonna appreciate it. So thank you. Thanks, guys. See ya, you know.