Why Empathy is a Business Strategy: Monica Mockus on Human-Centered Creativity in Healthcare

In this episode of The Riveo Impact Lab, Elin and Emily sit down with Monica Mockus, founder, CEO, and Executive Creative Director of mock5 design, a creative agency specializing in healthcare and wellness. With more than 20 years of experience as a designer and art director, Monica brings a unique perspective on building a purpose-driven business rooted in empathy, compassion, and a human-centered approach.

Monica shares her journey of launching and leading mock5, the lessons she’s learned in fostering creativity while running a company, and how design can create meaningful impact in industries that touch people’s lives most directly. The conversation dives into sustainability, leadership, and the balance of creativity with business strategy—offering valuable insights for entrepreneurs, creatives, and leaders alike.

Tune in to hear Monica’s inspiring story, and discover how purpose-driven design can transform not just brands, but communities.

The Riveo Impact Lab is produced for you by Riveo Creative. For more Riveo Impact Lab content, including the video versions of all our episodes, please visit https://riveocreative.com/riveo-impact-lab/.

Transcript

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[electronic music starts][Emily] Welcome to the Riveo Impact Lab, the podcast in which we explore what it means for small businesses to have real impact in an evolving world. On this podcast, we engage our curiosity around topics like sustainability, diversity and inclusion, and the ethical outcomes of our decisions, all from a small business perspective.[Elin] You can find our podcast on audio platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or if you prefer to watch the video version, that's on YouTube or our website. I'm Elin.[Emily] And I'm Emily. And this week, we're sharing our interview with Monica Mockus. Monica has over 20 years of experience as a designer and art director, and she ultimately leveraged that knowledge into launching her own company. Monica is the founder, CEO, and executive creative director of mock5 design, a creative agency focused on healthcare and wellness industries. Over the last decade, Monica has been at the helm of mock5, leading her team with an emphasis on, as they say on their website, a “human-centered approach rooted in empathy and compassion.”[Elin] I really enjoyed my conversation with Monica, and I was especially inspired to learn about how she created, how she intentionally created a very progressive culture within her team. I think you're going to enjoy that part as well.[Emily] Yeah, absolutely. Monica has so much to offer our listeners as a business owner and artist, and just in general, a person who's committed to living out her values through her work. So please enjoy our conversation with Monica Mockus.[electronic music][electronic music concludes][Elin Barton] Monica, I am really excited to talk with you today.[Monica Mockus] Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah, and I've got so many questions for you. But let's start back at the beginning when you were, kicking off your career. I'd love to hear about your background and kind of the trajectory that led you to your career as an entrepreneur and as a creative.[Monica] Sure. So I actually was much later coming into creative than I really was into life sciences and in the sort of healthcare space. So years and years and years ago, I think my first real job was actually in healthcare within the life sciences, helping out my mom. Actually, she was working for an organization that was out of New Jersey, and I was just part time, going to college and helped her out and fell in love with it.[Elin] Wait, what were you doing at that organization?[Monica] Yeah, so she worked for a healthcare company. They did consulting for hospitals that were in the process of transitioning from for-profit to not-for-profit. And they were worried about not being able to keep their doors open. And it was really critical. A lot of them were, it was way before there were IDNs and there were huge networks like that. So for a lot of the communities, if those hospitals closed their doors, it would be detrimental. It would have been detrimental to those communities. Right? So the company that she worked for, they would go in and they would write expense reduction programs for those hospitals. Sometimes they would write organizational programs for them just to help them keep their doors open. And I was a young person and took an analyst job, just did a lot of research for them, looking for opportunities for them to save money. And I just fell in love with it. My mom was always in healthcare growing up, so it was just something that, I don't know. It was a lot of fun. It was very analytical. It was really interesting. And so fast forward when I ended up changing my major probably seven times before I ended up in creative, I started out in my creative career. I was in museum design. I went into magazine and publication design. I went to a small, agency. I loved that too. And then I ended up working at Merck in creative, and I sat down the first day and started working on vaccines. And that was it. I just knew the minute I sat down that that's the kind of creative that I wanted to do. So it was incredible.[Elin] Oh, that's really cool. I didn't know that about your beginning-beginnings back with your mom. That's, that's really interesting. And all the different directions you could have taken.[Monica] It's funny, I actually teach a graphic design class at Temple University. And so the students I teach a class for sophomores. For the sophomores, they're really in that space of thinking about what does graphic, graphic design look like for them? What's it going to look like as a career? And so I think for most of them, they're still in that space of like, “I'm going to be an artist. It's going to be, I'm going to have a studio.” Their parents, of course, are thinking like, “You're going to have a job, right?” Right? So they're really trying to think through future. And when we start talking about all of the options, it's really incredible for them to think about my journey and all the different roles I've taken and what it's like to, to find the thing that really resonates for you. So I mean, and it's different for everybody, but design and creative has so many different opportunities for sure, so.[Elin] Yeah, it really does. And, I wanted to ask you about some of the challenges you faced. Talking about the students makes me think about some of the challenges we're all facing right now, like with AI and budgets, and. Like, there's so much disruption in many of our worlds as small business owners, entrepreneurs, creatives. You know, it's really rapidly changing. So how, do you have, like a way, do you have a secret sauce for like navigating challenges and getting through all these, these tricky times?[Monica] I mean, I think, I think pretty much like anything in our space is just always changing, right, from the moment we start in this, in this world. It's—even in college, right? I can think about the first courses I took through the time I graduated. The, the softwares were different, right, from the start to the end. The, the way you executed a project was different from the freshman year to the time I graduated. Right? So I think we just are used to that. I feel like the, the real difference now is the speed at which it’s changing. It's just a totally different situation. Right? And back at the beginning, our clients didn't necessarily know how much of the technology was changing. It was more behind the scenes. Right? So when our technology changed, it made our processes faster or more efficient. It was more in our space and not necessarily in the public view. Right? So now this technology's out in the world and everybody knows about it and everybody wants it. They don't necessarily know how to use it or how it impacts the work we do, or how it should impact how we deliver our work to them. But they want it. Right?[Elin] Mm-hmm.[Monica] You know, for us it's always about, okay, slow down. Let's be really intentional about this. Let's think about how this can be super meaningful. A friend of mine recently shared an analogy that I really, I love. and I think it's, I think it's an important way to talk about AI, right? So not as something that replaces us or replaces the work that we do, but to think about it more like Iron Man, right? That it's a suit you put on when you need it, when you need to be more powerful, and a suit you take off when you really just need to be your human self, when you need to be more accessible and more engaged that way. Right? So I feel like for us, the challenge is there are times when you should not be using the tool. There are times when you need to set it down and be in this space. And there are times when, yeah, absolutely, it makes total sense to bring it to the front. But I feel like as people are trying to understand it and they're hearing it all the time, they're saying like, “Yeah, yeah, I want it, I want it.” They don't necessarily, necessarily know why or how, but they're hearing everybody else using it. So they want to be at the front like that as well too. It's, it's a tricky situation for sure. And I know like with creatives we're always like, but you know, technology like, we’re like kids in a candy shop, right. Like we want more. Give me more. Like it's fun. It is. But we also want to be really intentional about it. And as a human centered agency, I mean, it is about like, how do we use it in a way that is really meaningful for the work we do for our clients, and especially in health care for the outcomes? Right? Yeah.[Elin] Yeah. I think that's such a good point. And I love the Iron Man analogy. That's really great.[Monica] Awesome, right?[Elin] Yeah, it's, it's fabulous. But I think, like with AI specifically, it's so easy to create just endless content and so many people and firms I see on social media are just putting out endless, like, garbage, basically. And I think that's where we can really differentiate ourselves, too, as human centric agencies, mission driven agencies, who are more thoughtful about what we're creating, intentional and careful. And so, you know, here is the challenge, and here is the opportunity.[Monica] Well, you know, noise.[Elin] So much noise.[Monica] It doesn't mean anything. Right? And we, we’ve just come from a place where misinformation was so detrimental to the world. Right? When we look at Covid and we look at what happened and how many lives were lost as a result of misinformation, and it's very dangerous. Right? So the, the need to slow it down and be really intentional about what we put out there. I know there is a race to get out there. I know it's important to be seen to have that visibility, especially when the volume keeps, you know, getting elevated and, and it's so much more saturated and much easier to get it out there. But I think it's that much more important to, to slow it down and make sure you're being authentic and, and really meaningful in your, in your communication and looking for the value. Why are you, why are you putting this out there? What does it mean? And are you just adding to the noise, to the clutter?[Elin] That's a question I think we all have to ask ourselves every day. Because it's so easy to, to, it's very easy to do that, but, very sort of irresponsible to do that as well. Yeah. Yeah. So. Well, your agency is not about adding to the clutter, not about adding to the noise. You're about something very different. How did your whole, how did mock5 come about? What's the vision and mission behind your company?[Monica] Yeah. So, a number of years ago, I told you I was working with Merck. I ended up working at another agency. We were working for pharma. We had a number of clients. I loved the work. It was in health education. It was primarily patient education and provider education. While I loved the work and I loved the teams and the clients I was supporting, I fell out of love with the agency that I was working for, and it was after a series of, of other large agencies that I've been supporting, and I just didn't like the model. I didn't like the traditional agency model at all.[Elin] What was it about that model that bothered you?[Monica] I don't think there was a lot of accountability in terms of the way that we met our clients when, when, they had to flex, financially when things were tough and, and we saw them cutting team members and having to downsize. We weren't meeting them with, with their needs. Right? We weren't looking for ways that we could actually, adapt and help them in, you know, with their needs on our side. And I think the other side of it is, you know, there was not a lot of concern for individual needs within the organizations that we worked in. Right? So there's a lot of like, “Hey, you belong, your obligation is to us as an agency, not necessarily your family or your individual needs. So here's where your priorities are. Like, you've got to be here when we, whenever it calls. So you're late, you're early or whatever it is. You're here first and foremost.” And just a lot of old school, mad men kind of antics, you know, and it just wasn't really my style. It wasn't for me. I know it works for some people, but for me, it just, it just was not, it wasn't working for me. And there were just a couple of things along the way that that just had pushed me to this place where I felt like I was done. I wanted, I wanted something different. I wasn't necessarily looking to create something for myself, but I knew that I wanted something different. And, you know, I had just talked to a couple of clients and I said, “I really, I appreciate everything that I've been able to do with you and for you. And I just want you to know that, I'm going to, I'm going to be leaving, and I want you to know that I, it doesn't have anything to do with you.” We had been so close in some of the work that we were doing. And, they asked if I would ever consider creating my own company. And I started thinking about it and I thought, well, why not? I'll give it a shot, you know? And I thought, well, maybe it'll just be like, hold me over until I find something else, or I decide what else I want to do. And, you know, here we are 15 years later. So, like, yeah.[Elin] Congratulations. You know, it's interesting because I think you and I are aligned in a lot of ways in our thinking. And maybe the way we operate our businesses. And, I, too, had an experience like that early in my career where I was working with a lot. I was doing a lot of commercial work in Europe, a lot of like European wide campaigns and things. And, some producers and directors that we worked with had no boundaries, and they would very gladly call you up in the middle of the night or, you know, any time and just expect you to, to be ready to, like, talk to them or do whatever, you know, go pick something up, whatever they needed. And that is something that stuck with me. And I'm very intentional with my team about setting boundaries. And we, I only ask them to do overtime or to do weekend work or out of hours work when it's really necessary. I try not to abuse that at all. You know? I feel like it's so important to have that life/work balance.[Monica] As silly as it sounds, I mean it, it truly happened. I was leaving to pick up my son for daycare, and I, I told my director, “I'm just going to run and pick up my son. When I get back to the house, I'll log back on, you know, I'll be ready to, to, you know, help out tonight.” And, and he said to me,“You have a decision to make what your priority is, you know.”[Elin] Well, that's easy.[Monica] “Your career or your family?” And I said, “There is no decision here. What are you talking about? Like you've just lost every, everything, just in this conversation. Like, you know, I told you I would get back on.” Like, it was just. It was.[Elin] Yeah.[Monica] I mean, it was just so disrespectful. I couldn't even believe it, you know? So. And for me, when I started mock5, that became the essence of everything, right? Just, I wouldn't even say culture. It just self love. Right? Just, this is a space you, everybody works. We have to, right? Work is a four letter word. There's no way around it. It's what it is. Right? But if you can be someplace where you have the freedom to love yourself first and do the work, you'll be much more productive. You'll be much more of a team player. You know, someone asked me about it recently and said, “Well, if you talk about self-love, then you're aren't you creating a team of selfish people.” What I believe is that love doesn't happen in a vacuum, and, and it doesn't happen without company. Right? So if you are focused on loving yourself, that is really about loving in a community, right? So it's, it just is, I think who we are. We talk about ourselves and empower each other and just naturally. We had a love session yesterday. We all needed to, just a little bit of self-love. And when you do that, you want that for each other too, you know.[Elin] Yeah. That sounds like a very healthy company culture to me. What is a love session?[Monica] Well we actually were talking about what matters about each of us individually.[Elin] Like for each other? Like or for yourselves?[Monica] Why I matter as a human being, you know? So we went around the circle and just before we left, at the end of the day, just why I matter.[Elin] That, that’s, I love that.[Monica] You know, and we just said,“When is the last time you said out loud why you matter as a human being,” you know? A lot of us said like it was hard to just think of one reason, you know, why we each matter as individuals. Which is ridiculous, right? Because we all matter so much. There are so many reasons we all matter. And you're sitting across the table from somebody who could name 100 reasons why you matter, and you can't think of one off the top of your head? Like so it's so important to just have a moment that you do that, you know? So.[Elin] That, that's very interesting. And I did want to talk to you about impact, because that's kind of the essence of this podcast and what you just said there, that's so impactful internally. And then I think about some of the work that you do externally and, and you do a lot of work. Well, the last time I spoke to you, you were doing a lot of work with health equity and other like really meaningful campaigns and such. I don't know what, if that's still what you're currently working on or if that shifted a little bit, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about like.[Monica] No, it’s what we’re trying to do more and more of.[Elin] Yeah, like impact. Like you're, you're like making a big impact.[Monica] Well, you know, for me, you asked the question. You know what, what, what does impact mean to me? And I think it's meaningful change. You know, that's, that's what it means to me. So. And that can be so many different things, right? If it's just, you know, we were, we were talking about a few of us having a bad day yesterday. Right? And impact can just be having change, that little change in mindset, like just leave feeling loved, right? That's meaningful change. You know, if, if it's changing health outcomes, if it's having an impact on maternal mortality, is if it's having an impact on health education and health literacy and health engagement, like they're all meaningful change. There's so many levels and they all have impact on the world and our communities, and. And it's just something I always want to be a part of. You know, that's one of the reasons I matter. You know?[Elin] Well, you're making me want to come work for you. That sounds, that sounds like incredible. Absolutely amazing. Is there something, like when you think back on the history of your company in the 15 years you've been in business, is there something that stands out as, something you're really proud of in that time?[Monica] There's so much. I think, for me personally, one of the things that I'm really proud of is I, I tell my team all the time that they should forgive themselves, get really good at forgiving themselves for their mistakes, you know, and for, you know, imperfections and I know, for a number of years, I couldn't do that for myself. And, I recently had some time to reflect on the fact that I've gotten pretty good at doing it for myself. And I'm really proud of that, because that's something I didn't think I would be able to do. So, so I'm really proud of that. But I also think that, I'm really proud of the fact that we just keep redefining who we are, that we just keep finding our mojo. We're just, we just find our energy. One of my team members said yesterday,“You're unstoppable.” And I think that's who we are. Like, we just, we just, we're always looking for ways to change the world and in a good way. And that's something that we just, we're here for always, you know, and it's fun. It's what I wake up to in the morning. It's what excites me. And I think that's, it's so much fun to know that we have the opportunity to do that even in the smallest ways. You know?[Elin] Yeah. Something I observe from seeing you and your team in real life a couple of months ago is it, it seems to me that you are, it's not like Monica is doing this alone, and everybody's just following her. It really feels like you've created this team environment where everybody is kind of like, you know, turning the wheels together or rowing the boat or whatever the analogy is.[Monica] Well, that's why the self-love piece of it is so important, right? Because I can have my. You know, you can start a company based on your passion, right? But if you expect everybody who comes on board to be as passionate about your passion as you are, you know, at some point they're, they're going to fall out of excitement with that. Right? But if you can say like, “Hey, I know you're here to do the work that is my passion, right? But if you can feel while you're here that you're seen and you're valued and you're honored and you're respected and that I, I am as excited about you and your passions as I am about mine,” like there's always infinite amount of space for everybody to be expressed and, you know, to be valued. And so I think you don't, you don't lose in that space. And you do then have the, the ability to keep that energy. Does it work for everybody? No, it doesn't work for everybody. But for those who do, who value that and find that same kind of joy and empowerment in their, it's limitless. Right? Like it's just. Yeah.[Elin] Yeah. No, I totally get that. And, you know, I think Riveo has some of that, too, where we're really cultivating this. Everybody's very invested in the company. We're doing a lot with sustainability and impact and, and all the things. It excites the team, I think, and it's a lot more fun to do it together. You know, it's, it's, I feel like over the years I haven't always had this culture. You may have had, but I've certainly evolved into it.[Monica] It's an evolution, right? You learn from your mistakes for sure. Like I said, you, forgiveness, right? You, you come with the best of intentions. And you learn along the way that...[Elin] You figure it out.[Monica] ...you can want it. That doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it, right? But as long as you keep building on it, I mean, that's the best you can hope for, right? We're all human. We're all always going to make mistakes. But if we can keep learning from them, that's, that's, you know.[Elin] Yeah. I heard it called Earth School. Like we're all here on Earth School. Just trying to figure it out, like, doing our best, learning, learning the lessons. And how do you say you've created this really cool culture? You're doing meaningful work. And you're a creative person obviously. You've, you've, you're a, I would imagine, a dreamer. You're a, you know, visionary. How do you balance all of that with the business side of the business? Like you also, you also are the person that has to keep the lights on, keep the engine running.[Monica] So I, I'm like one of those, like, split down the middle kind of people. Like, I'm sort of half analytical, half creative. Right? For me, like, it's really the knowing whose turn it is. Right? Because one definitely is ready to turn off. You know, like there are times when the creative one is like,“Yeah, yeah, I need a nap,” you know? Right. And so it's really just listening to myself and knowing, knowing who's, who's steering the ship, you know, at any given time and just letting that one take control. Right. And it's, it's important. It can be a tough job because there are some times when I'm supposed to be in creative mindset and I'm really not. I'm in analytical mindset, but it's, it's okay if, as long as I can, I can acknowledge that and know my limitations in that space, so.[Elin] Yeah. That's great self-awareness.[Monica] Yeah. It’s hard. It’s come with a lot of, from a lot of learnings along the way.[Elin] I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah. At least for me, I didn't know anything about running a business at the beginning. And a lot of it's just lots of error, lots of trial and, and successes here and there and.[Monica] Yeah. Well that's definitely. I mean, I think in the beginning I beat myself up pretty hard. Right? Like, who am I to say I know this stuff? Like, you know, it's sort of this audacious, you know, like, you know, I don't have a degree in this, you know, I'm going to trust other people. And I feel like I actually made some mistakes because I trusted people who didn't actually know my vision or know my business, as well as I did. And I, I should have trusted myself a little bit more. And it took a lot of, a lot of digging and a lot of work on myself to get to a space where I trusted me as a leader in that way, so.[Elin] Yeah. No I really feel that in, you know, this, this quiet confidence. Love that.[Monica] Well, it was it was hard to get there, that's for sure. You know, we had those all those unanswerable questions, right?“I'm not smart enough. I'm not good enough for this.” And then you have to go, “Where did that, where's that coming from?” And like usually when you get to the source of that, it’s some story from when you were five and you're like, “Wow, I've been carrying it around for this long?” It’s time to let that go.[Elin] And I want to ask you too about like, what do you think, so as a female running a creative agency, I've sometimes feel that in general, men who are in, you know, this position with this type of company, agency have a very different experience. And I just to generalize, don't feel like a lot of them are asking themselves those exact same questions. Would you, do you have that?[Monica] It's funny. I think women tend to lead from behind. Right? So we sit back here and we're just looking at everything, and we just want to make sure everybody's safe and everything's okay, and we're, we're just moving forward like this, right? I think guys tend to go like,“I'm out there doing this. You're coming along.” Right? You know, like they get,“Hopefully I didn't lose anybody along the way.” But they very rarely look back to see, right? Where we were just back here. Like we're just, we're going to, you know. And I think that just is a, I don't know if it's like our nature. I don't know if it's a maternal instinct. I'm not sure what it is, but—and I don't, and I know it's not everyone. Right? But I think by and large you see that much more that you know, women are checking to make sure everything's okay. And as a, as a leader in a company, you're looking at every aspect of it. So not necessarily that you're looking it up, you know, you're nurturing everyone, but you're, you're thinking about all of the pieces that fit together, more, you know, much more like that leading from behind kind of perspective where, you know. And I don't know that one is, one is more right. But I, you know, I think that, you know. You've, you've seen, you know, them both work different ways. I prefer the lead from behind. I think that's a, it's much more human centered. It's, feels a lot more inclusive, that's for sure. And I think it allows for people to really have a voice, you know, everyone to have a voice. I think when you're when you're just running into things, you're not really considerate of where everybody else is in the conversation, you know, so.[Elin] Yeah. Yeah. I'm having a hard time picturing the, you know, male counterpart doing those love sessions. Probably not doing the love sessions.[Monica] I mean I think there are some that do.[Elin] There are some. Yeah.[Monica] I think in general, it’s— it's funny, I, you know, years ago my family and I, we were in Europe and we were on a bike tour and there were a bunch of, I think there probably like 20 people on the, on the ride, you know. And, I have a husband and two boys and they're in this mix, and I'm at the back of the pack of bike riders, you know, and my son looks back and he yells, “Mom, are you okay back there?” And I was like, “I'm doing just fine.” I'm a strong bike rider. There's nothing. But I just need to see everybody. And this woman, you know, young woman next to me turns around, she's like,“You lead from behind, don't you?” And I said, “Yes, I do. I just like to see.” And she's like,“Me too.” And I was like,“I think all ladies kind of do,” you know, you know, like it's just, you know, we're just watching, you know, we’re just, we need to make sure everybody is okay. And it's funny, I think it's just, I think in business it's just tends to be who we are, you know.[Elin] Yeah, yeah, I really like that. I'm going to, I'm going to take that with me, that, that idea too. So thinking about young women coming up, you work with students, you know, I'm sure a lot of young women. What advice would you give to them or to underrepresented entrepreneurs who are maybe, you know, embarking on their career today?[Monica] Yeah. I think two things. For young women, for all women, I would say be kind. Be kind to all women. Right? I think we, we say, you know, we have a tendency to say, “I'm, I'm all, I'm all in, you know, on women leaders.” And then we sit back and say,“Why is she wearing that? You know, what does she look, why? That lipstick is terrible on”—Just be kind. Just everyone is out there trying so hard. Let it go. Just be supportive whenever you possibly can. Right? And then I think for all of us as entrepreneurs, we just need to get over the idea of competitiveness and competition and just lean into collaboration. Right? We're, we're small businesses. We are all out there in the same space working. We have so much to contribute to each other. There's so much work to be done, so much space for us to all thrive. And I feel like if we can put competition aside, there would be so much more opportunity for all of us. So those would be the things I would say to lean into.[Elin] Yeah. I totally agree with that. And it seems that, yes, individually we're small. You know, many of us are really small. Some of us are less small. But, and sometimes it can seem like we are too small to make an impact. And yet, coming together or doing the things and sharing the stories, we, we do begin to make an impact. So do you have anything you'd like to add on, where you see small businesses making meaningful change in the world?[Monica] It's massive, right? I mean, all the money that we make goes back into our communities, right? We're, by and large, the ones that donate, the ones that, you know, look for need, that care about who's in need in our communities, we’re always looking for ways that we can give back. Statistically, we know all of our tax dollars, our extra funds go there. From a salary perspective, there's, there's no comparison. Our CEOs don't ever make what these large companies do. We put prosperity front and center for our employees. We love to share the wealth. Right? So, it's a whole different way of seeing success and wanting to give back. So, I mean, I think if you look at the numbers of small businesses, while the, the dollars of a huge organization are much more significant, that money lives in such a smaller group of individuals, where on our level it's way more spread out and it changes so many more lives. And I feel like if that could happen, if we could take the money from ten of those CEOs and spread it across, I mean, it would just make such a huge difference, right? Hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more, billions of dollars, you know, in ten people's hands.[Elin] That gets a little frustrating when you see all the things that could be done with that money. But in the meantime, I guess we—[Monica] And you know. In small businesses, that's where it would go.[Elin] Oh, that's where it would go. Yeah.[Monica] None of us would feel good going home at the end of the day with $10 million and having our next best paid employee making $200,000, like, nobody would feel good about that.[Elin] No.[Monica] There's just, there's, it doesn't work like that in our space, you know?[Elin] No. In my experience, the CEOs often get paid last.[Monica] I laugh. Like, you know, when we first started, you know, I didn't get paid for the first, it was like a year and a half. We were getting certified with WBENC, and, you know, our auditor said, “Well, when do you think you're going to pay yourself?” And I said, “God, I hope it soon.” We don’t have a whole lot left,” you know, so. That's, you know.[Elin] Yeah. No, I can totally relate to that. But. But that's the difference. And that's, that's the impact. And I think talking with you today, you know, even thinking about the, the love circle that you described, you know, that's impact. That's like people switching something in themselves, changing something in themselves, going out in the world, maybe smiling at somebody else. And then it just ripples out in that. You know, is it the same as putting in tens of billions of dollars into the economy? No, but it's maybe not less important.[Monica] Well, I, I mean, honestly, do not believe there's such a thing as work/life balance. I think they kind of all flow in to each other. And if you are unhappy, if you're angry at work, if you're feeling that, if you're taking that tension home with you or out in the world with you, it’s, the, the rest of the world, or your family is paying that price, right? There's just no other way to, to do it, you know, like so. I mean, yeah, if you can create a space where people feel fulfilled or have a place to change it before they go home or leave it before they go home, yeah, it does make a huge difference.[Elin] Well amen to that. Love it. It was great talking with you today, Monica. I, really appreciate the conversation. Appreciate your time.[Monica] Me too.[Elin] Yeah. How, how can people find you and connect with you?[Monica] Well, when you asked the question,“Where would you find me?” I was going to tell you that you would find me probably most days on my deck with my husband and my dogs, drinking a nice glass of wine. But if you want to find me, you can find me at, on LinkedIn. You can find me at mock5design.com. You are more than welcome to call my cell phone. Email me anytime. I love conversation, I love talking and meeting new people. Yeah.[Elin] Okay. I love how you're changing the world.[Monica] You can visit me at Temple University. You can come meet my students. That'll be great.[Elin] Fantastic. Or joining for a glass of wine. That works too.[Monica] It’s a big deck. If you like dogs and you like wine come on over.[Elin] Okay, okay. Very good. All right, Monica. Well, thank you so much.[Monica] Thank you. It was really nice talking to you and always nice seeing you.[electronic music starts][electronic music concludes][Emily] Our Make an Impact tip of the week is review your values. If your team has a set of core values, review them together and discuss how each of them might show up practically in your line of work. If you don't have any yet, that's okay. Start by writing them down and discussing them together as a team.[electronic music starts] Thanks for listening and make sure to do good in the world this week. If you have questions you'd like us to address on the podcast, you can reach us at info@riveocreative.com. Subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on any of our incredible upcoming guests, and we'll see you soon at the Riveo Impact Lab.[electronic music][electronic music concludes]