Making a Better World: Tom Hering and Benefit Corporations for Good

In this episode of the Riveo Impact Lab, Elin sits down with Tom Hering, co-founder and managing partner of Benefit Corporations for Good, to explore what it really means for businesses to put their values into action.

Tom shares the story of his career journey, from copywriter, creative director, and brand strategist to advocate for purpose-driven business. Drawing on decades of experience in storytelling, marketing, and community impact, he explains how benefit corporations create accountability around people, planet, and profit, and why certification can be a powerful tool for companies that want to prove they are doing good — not just say they are.

Together, Elin and Tom discuss the difference between benefit corporations and traditional B Corp certification, why values-aligned business practices matter, and how small businesses can create meaningful impact in their communities. This conversation is a hopeful and practical look at how organizations of all sizes can build a more conscientious, purpose-driven future.

The Riveo Impact Lab is produced for you by Riveo Creative. For more Riveo Impact Lab content, including the video versions of all our episodes, please visit https://riveocreative.com/riveo-impact-lab/.

Transcript

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Welcome to the Riveo Impact Lab, the podcast in which we explore what it means for small businesses to have real impact in an evolving world. On this podcast, we engage our curiosity around topics like sustainability, diversity and inclusion, and the ethical outcomes of our decisions, all from a small business perspective. Hi, I'm Emily. And I’m Elin, and we release episodes of The Riveo Impact Lab once a month on the second Thursday of every month. So be sure to follow us on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can support us by listening, sharing, or leaving a review. Today we're sharing our interview with Tom Hering. Tom is the co-founder and managing partner of Benefit Corporations for Good, an organization that provides certifications to companies that need a credible and accessible alternative to traditional B Corp certification. Tom has worn many hats, working as a creative director, copywriter and brand strategist at his own marketing communications firm, as well as working for well-regarded agencies in the Northwest United States as a copywriter and creative director. Tom has worked on projects for national and regional companies you've definitely heard of, like Nike, Intel, and Bob's Red Mill Natural Foods. He's worked with healthcare organizations including Providence Health Systems, Regence Blue Cross Blue Shield, as well as Good Samaritan hospitals in Corvallis and Portland. And his nonprofit experience involves work for Impact NW, Loaves and Fishes, Oregon Special Olympics, and more. Tom currently serves as the advocacy co-chair for the Interfaith Alliance on Poverty, an organization dedicated to fighting generational poverty. He's also the coauthor of the books“Putting Soul into Business: How the Benefit Corporation Is Transforming American Business,” and “25 Building Blocks to Create a Conscientious Organization.” Tom has received many awards like Clios, Addys, Tellys and Rosies for the work that he's created. Tom's wealth of expertise has made him exactly the right fit to do what he does now, in leading others to put their values first. I first heard about Benefit Corporations for Good when one of my friends got certified, and I knew Tom would be a great guest because of the experience and expertise he has, as well as his desire to make doing good accessible to companies of all sizes. Tom and his team have definitely been doing just that. So if you're interested in what certification could look like for you, or you just want to hear an interesting story of impact, please enjoy this episode of the Riveo Impact Lab Tom, thank you for being with me here today. I'm excited to chat with you. Very excited to be here, Elin. I really appreciate your reaching out to me and an opportunity to share what I can with your listeners and viewers out there. Yeah. Awesome. Well, that's great because we try to tell stories of impact. I shouldn't say we try. We do tell stories of impact and learning about you and your organization, I know there's a really great story there to tell. So why don't we start out by kind of, you giving us the overview of your career and kind of what got you to the place where you are today. Yeah, that’s a great place to start. So, you know my career has really had three distinct acts. And they’re all connected by this thread of storytelling and persuasion. Each point kind of pushing me a little deeper than the last. And I’ll start off by saying my first two acts were in the advertising world as a copywriter and a creative director and then eventually becoming an owner and creative director of my own creative services business. So who did you work? Did you work for one of the big agencies when you got started? No, I mean, the agencies, I, you know, they're they're rarely I don't even I think there are a couple are still in business but they're much smaller and they're more regional. So the agencies were in Portland and in Seattle. So both places. And then when I set up my own business, of course it was here. And so but along the way, this third act kind of got bubbling up. And I really wanted to do something meaningful, really heart centered. You know, financial concerns were not important to me. It was more like, I want to leave some impact. I want to really want to do something good for my community. For the business leaders that I always admired and believed in. I got introduced to this concept of the benefit corporation. And here in Oregon, they call it the benefit company. There are four, four of the 40 states right now call it benefit company. The rest either call it benefit corporation or social purpose corporation, which is the case in the state of Washington. But yeah, I really wanted to do something good for the world, as I said, something that wasn't just brand building, but something that could make a meaningful change for for the better of course. And so the turning point, it really wasn't that dramatic as much as it was, it's time to take these skills that I've acquired to this at this point in life and do something with them that has impact, that has impact. So so you've got these like storytelling skills, advertising skills, you know how to connect with an audience and you learn about benefit corporations. And then you decide to dedicate yourself to this cause? That's that's kind of how it went. So I'll I'll get beneath the surface here a little bit for you, Elin. So my I had my business partner, my co-founder Benefit Corporations for Good, Mary Anne Harmer, who's now retired. She and I initially thought we were going to work in this third act and do offer senior level thinking, leadership, marketing help to non-profits. And we kind of did that for a year, helping project work for various organizations that were based here in Portland. But along the way, we got introduced to the Oregon Benefit Company. And once we learned about that, this was in 2018. We felt that was a better mesh of our business skills and our desire to do good. This was kind of the perfect intersection. So what was that, The Oregon Benefit Company, what did what did they do? What intrigued you so much? Yeah. So I think it's because it was very mission driven in it's concept where as a benefit corporation or benefit company, you you have baked in a responsibility because it is part of your articles of incorporation on the state you're registered in to make your decisions based on people and planet, in addition to profit. So again, it's the stakeholders model really at its at its basic roots. And This is I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to get really clear on what this benefit corporation is. I learned a little bit about it. We were in the process of applying for B Corp certification, and so it came up during that process. And so it's a legal- a benefit corporation is a legal structure right? So what happens is when you let's say you're just incorporating now as a business and you go to the Oregon Secretary of State's website, or in your case, you're in the state of New York, so you do the same thing and you decide, you know, are you going to be an LLC? Are you going to be an S Corp or a C corp? And, you know, you make that decision based on input from your accountant and from your attorney and, you know, whatever other advisors you might have. And at that time, you're also able to check a box, at least here in the state of Oregon, I think it's pretty universal across the 40 states that offer this right now, where you check a box says, oh, I also want to be an Oregon benefit company. So you're operating as an LLC, but also committed to the principles and the statute of the Oregon Benefit Company or the New York Benefit Corporation. So again, it's still based on the standard, you know, time driven corporate structure. What you cannot do is you cannot go into this designation as a sole proprietor. You must be incorporated in some form or fashion. So that's really it. And then what happens is that gets into your, as I said, your articles of incorporation. And then you, you need to follow those up and a couple other, just I'll just, you know, maybe these are some additional, you know, elaboration here that you have to adopt a third party standard. So we are one of four on the Oregon Secretary of State's website. And there's B-Lab, of course, which is you're familiar with there's Benefit Corporations for Good. There's Green America, another third party standard. And then the fourth one is GRI, which is a general reporting initiative. I think that's the - and then you identify with that third party standard you follow, you know, that as a guideline. And at the end of each year it could be depending, you know, the year is whenever whatever you decide as a company or a leader that you must report an annual benefit report, must produce an annual benefit report, that states how you improved, made material positive impact on society, on the people, on the planet, and then report that annually. And then that has to be distributed somehow and normally it’s on your website. Some people do it through distribution of an email to their key stakeholders, investment people, whatever the case may be, we as an organization, and I'm pretty sure this is the true of B-Lab, but we require that you must do that and it must be produced and shown on your website if you want to be recertified with us. And our recertification is annually, it's every year. You must go through this process again. So and that's that's kind of our standard right now. And our first 20 companies wanted that baked in. They wanted that accountability baked in. When we had our first group meeting to determine that. Okay. So you came across. So let me just make sure I've got the story straight. So you came across a company that that was already certified and that inspired you to want to become a certifying body. More that we learned about the existence of the Oregon Benefit Company. It was more that this was an option. And we had a friend who was a small business ombudsman in the Oregon Secretary of State's office, if that makes sense. And she was putting on “Here's what it is.” It was just a basic informational meet-up. And the problem is one of the biggest problems that continues, anybody in this movement knows this, that the benefit corporation in whole is not very well known, even though in Oregon it's been since 2014 and some states, I think Maryland was the first state and it was 2008. Some of the states spending money on a public information campaign to let small business owners like you know that this is an option. Well, part of what Mary Anne and I did initially, and what’s still part of what drives me, is that I need to just get out and share this, be an evangelist, share this idea that if making social environmental impact is important to you, if you want some accountability, then this is a great way to go. You know, in terms of building your business and attracting, you know, attracting talent and attracting customers and being a great community member. You know, standing standing well in the eyes of your community. Yeah, I love that because it’s one thing to have like, hopes and dreams that you're going to make the world a better place. It's a whole other thing to prove that you're doing the things that you say you want to do or that you're going to be doing. We know this well. We we do EcoVadis as one of our assessments. Every year we have to go through and prove all the things that we're doing. We put out an impact report, like we do a lot of things as a company. And I also try to spread the word about the importance of this and and the fact I feel and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, but I feel like even a small company can make an impact by doing, doing the things you know, that they believe was going to make an impact, but also then by talking about it. And then there's this ripple effect, or by by asking their vendors to adhere to certain policies and standards and, and asking their contractors, and, you know, there is this you can make a difference. Absolutely. And I think that's really been our our focus has really been on the small business community. And yes, we have a couple larger companies, our 1500 FTEs, there's one that has 800 to 1000, but the majority of our businesses are smaller in scope. But not only do we believe that they can make as much a difference as a large corporation, they're usually geared to move quicker in that direction. You don't have you don't have a board to go through. You don't have a, you know, a law review that you have to if you, as a small business owner, make a decision that gets done relatively quickly, you know, after, of course, might consult with your attorney or you might consult with your CPA on that. And sometimes we suggest that, but it's the nimbleness of a small business to be able to make that change and to go quickly at it. And that's that's why we wanted to stay- we felt that other certifications were just too time consuming and too costly. So while ours is not going to be as rigorous, it isn't, but it's still, as we call it, kind of the on ramp to to to be core certification. If that's that is your goal as a business leader. But we businesses in our in our community that are certified by both and of course the ones that are dual certified, all typically at this point in time seem to be in the state of Oregon. And then I'm getting some spillover from some other businesses that have been B Corp certified. But they liked our standard and felt fit them better. And these are from other states. So but I think back to your to your point about small business making a difference. Absolutely it can. And we see some really amazing work that our businesses I'm awed and inspired on a daily basis on what they're doing. And I just get the draft off the fumes. You know, I mean it is such, such good stuff. So Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, that’s really cool. I was just talking to somebody today about being in in that community where people are positive about making an impact in the world and, and not that they're not paying attention to the news. But despite the news we hear from Washington, they're doing they're doing what they do to make the world a better place. And there's something very invigorating about being in that company of those people. So that's very, very cool. And and you work with businesses in all 50 states, is that right? states, is that right? Yeah. Oh well, it's 40 because there are only 40 states that have that legislation right now. So eventually it'll be all 50. But I have, we have at this point in time, Elin, we have 13 states, soon to be 14 states where our standard is represented, our certification is represented, and they will have the Canadian province as well. So, you know, we're we're we're moving. It's, you know, it's a wonderful thing. I mean, people finding out about it. And I'm looking to build, you know, build our community so that this becomes as well known as B-Lab’s you know, certification. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because, you know, as we're a marketing company as well, we we're like, you are very much into storytelling and and I'm just curious, like what your thoughts are about the best way to get these stories out there so that more small businesses or larger businesses can learn about this type of certification and even think like, I'm sorry, this is going to turn into a long question, but I remember I was at a conference several years ago, many years ago now, and it was this organization that put it on. They're committed to doing good specifically in disadvantaged communities, and they were featuring a lot of businesses that are like in business for good. They're in business to make money and they're in business to do good. And like a light bulb went off for me, I was like, oh, I didn't even know that that was a thing. That's amazing. That's what I want to do. Like, I think a lot of people probably don't even know, like, they they probably haven't thought about it yet. They're just trying to survive, maybe as a business. But how do you, like, reach those people? Yeah. So it's I had a similar question today from one of our certified businesses leaders, as a matter of fact. And you know, the best thing, let me back up a step. So last June, it'll be a year here at the end of June, I brought five of our business leaders representing four companies. They’re the dual certification businesses. So they're certified by B-Lab, they’re certified by Benefit Corporations for Good. And I told them I gave them my short vision for the next three years. I said, I really want to build benefit corporations for good. I need your help. I need your advice. And then I shared, you know, some confidential information that they were able to to take away. And one of the big things they told me to get this story out further, wider and farther out is through speaking. So I've worked really diligently where I'm out meeting with people, or I'm speaking to groups as frequently as I possibly can. And my whole mission on these, these talks that I have is to inform, not sell. So I am I really am informative and there are some persuasion based on the data that I share. So why? If you're interested in hiring the best and brightest from Gen Z, here's some here's some research from Deloitte. Or here's something that Edelman is saying right now that you need to do. If you want to attract younger customers, better know that they're going to go check out what you're about. If they're new to your area or they haven't heard of your company. What do you stand for? What do you stand up for? And so that's kind of been my, my my goal. I have a, I have a student team from the University of Oregon, my alma mater, that is helping me with social media. And they've done a super great job on, again, building campaigns. So one thing we're doing right now, we started in probably early February, but it's a testimonial campaign, very basic, but it's interviewing. I think there are 30 leaders of our community that's participated, and they were asked two questions. And then these are on our particularly on our LinkedIn page, our Benefit Corporations for Good LinkedIn page, but it says, “Why did you certify?” and “What has happened since?” And so they will talk about their belief in being a servant leader and doing good in their community. And then they will talk about specific things that has happened to that business since that certification. Some are very new, meaning they've been certified in the last year to two. Some are some of our oldest businesses that have been with us, you know, 6 or 7 years. And so that is part of our how I'm just, you know, disseminating the message out there. I'm getting that message out there. And then I'm doing some short videos on YouTube and again, answering basic questions about some of the questions you're asking me, what is a benefit corporation? Why should I do it? What are the requirements? Is this going to help me be a better purpose driven leader? Those kinds of things again, to inform, not to sell. I do talk about we have a ten question, 12 question quiz on our website. On our homepage. It's free, takes two minutes, and it helps a leader like you, Elin, that you go take this test and see if your values are aligned with the values of our community. Does this make sense for you? And then there's a scale. You'll see where you are, you know, are you ripe and ready? Are you kind of you're working that way. And then there's always the option if somebody wants to talk to me, I'm always open to kind of share where I would, what I would suggest and how they might go at it if they're interested in, you know, pursuing that path. Yeah, that that all sounds great. So I think we've established that having the accountability is good to make sure that as a purpose driven leader or a person who wants to be that it helps you to step into that role and do the things and make a make a real impact. You alluded to just now that this can also be really good for business. Like you talked about attracting talent and finding customers that want to spend their money with a purpose driven business that aligns with their values. Can you speak just a little bit more about how getting certified as a benefit corporation can actually be good for business? Yeah. So I think I would go back again to the two points that I just made. So what's good for your business is that you want to get the right employees, the right team members, to help you carry out the mission of your business. All right. And this is one way that you know you have the ability to do that. You can talk about your ethos as a as a business. And here are the things you stand for. And attracting talent, like when when I've seen business surveys for small business, attracting good talent is hard. It's a big pain point. It's it's probably the number one challenge, It's it's probably the number one challenge, I think that our smaller businesses have, I think, is to find the right people. And granted, we're living in a time where its-employment anywhere is tenuous. Let's just say at the, at the, you know, at best. Let's just say at the, at the, you know, at best. But I think as things get better, that is still going to be a very powerful point. Gen Z is very concerned about. They don't want to work for companies that just make money. They have to have they have to see a purpose beyond profit for them to be really bought into. And that's what, you know, making a commitment, you know, having that fiduciary responsibility does for a small business, it helps them bring the bring that talent in, get them excited. And it also does things for existing members too. There was a a company that really just studied the millennial generation. All right. And what was important to them was it put out reports, deeply driven research reports on what that generation was thinking about for jobs, for the future, for, you know, what kind of things they were buying. And it was overwhelmingly, you know, in favor of a company that is doing good. And not just having a PR department, you know, spinning things out, but have some accountability baked in to that business. And, you know, I think the one thing that I always tell leaders that come to me is that I said, you know, you small business owners are powerful change agents, you know, for our economy. There is, you know, they hire locally, they usually buy locally. There are so many good things that keep that particular economy of that community humming thanks to their efforts. Yeah, no that's very true. So you've kind of sold me on the fact that, you know, Benefit Corporation, this is a good thing to do. And I know as a small business owner we're often wearing many hats. We're stretched thin. What's a good like first step, would you say for somebody that's thinking about this. But they they haven't started the process yet. They're perhaps a bit overwhelmed. Two things that I would, I would suggest right off the bat and I’d tell them, number one, take this 12 question quiz, this will give you - it's it's free. You won't get anybody following up trying to sell you anything. See where you are. And then depending on that well, regardless of whatever comes back then talk to your team. What what team members you have. Share this information. See if they are aligned with your thinking as a leader, that this is something that I want to do. And if you come to a consensus that yes, or, you know, let's do it, it's very simple in that you are able then to just go to our website on our Get Certified button. And our fees are based on FTEs, our fees are based. B-Labs is based on revenue of the company. We don't have anything like that. And our lowest price point has been maintained for seven of the eight years. We want to keep that low because we think that small business and this is five FTEs or less, $299, and then the following year for recertification is $199. I mean, it's very little money. I definitely on my my board says you need to raise your fees. You need to pay yourself. I said, that's not the point right now for me. I just I want, you know, I want to help these small businesses get going. I'll pay out somewhere along the line. But then, then what happens is after that they have 60 question document that gets they get a link to. And then they have to fill out the certification self form. It's self-evaluation on a scale of 1 to 5. And then you add supporting documentation if it's helpful. It's not mandatory, but if it helps elaborate on your answer. And they're based on our eight standards of understanding the purpose of benefit corporations, what we call conscientious leadership, DEI, green practices, community engagement, customer service, strategic business practices and work life, but we call it life balance. Those eight areas are, you know, of that certification document that you must fill out as a leader. And then I get notice that you filled it out. I go through it, you know, usually within a couple of weeks. Then we will set up an evaluation call - what you did well, where you can improve, and because of my marketing background, Mary Anne, you know, my my retired business partner also had a very strong marketing background, we share some of top level things about what that website might have, how you might leverage your certification to your community, let them know what are some key documents. We have a free resources page that's full of how to write a benefit report, because that's going to be something you have to do and your follow up at recertification time the following year. So those are those are that's kind of the process really. It's it's that's how I would do it. But I think most importantly it's finding out that, you know, making sure that you're aligned. And then number two, making sure that your team is with you. You want that team with you and supporting you and and how you, you know, go from that certification to being part of the community. Yeah, that sounds great. And it doesn't sound too daunting. Sounds like doable. No, I think I think that's deliberate. You know, and we wanted to make this as, as the headline on our, on our website says “the on-ramp to benefit corporation certification.” And we look at it as an on-ramp. And, you know, people learn things every year as they go through their certification. And we don't want to make it too onerous, but yet we want to have some robustness, you know, and, it people usually go through it and we suggest a 2 to 4 hour time slot where you're uninterrupted and you kind of go through that and then you can save it. And if you need to come back and add documentation, that you think that answer better understood, add clarity, etc. than you know, you can do that. But I've rarely heard anybody that said it's onerus. You know, I don't think I've ever heard the term described. Yeah. No, this is this is really helpful. I only have a couple more questions for you. One of them is kind of like big thinking, big, big picture and maybe projecting into the future a little bit. Like, how do you see the impact of small businesses, you know, making the world a better place when it comes to sustainability and social impact? I think we touched upon this, but I'd like to hear what gives you hope for the future. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very good question. I'm going to start with a class I spoke at last week, a week ago today as a matter of fact, Portland State University here in my hometown and a friend of mine teaches a class called“Professional Selling.” And it's in the School of Business. And I went in and he wanted me to just tell them my, my story, my career story. And, you know, if I could leave them with any nuggets and then open it up to a Q&A. Once I got going, I, I tend to kind of chat for a while. And what I said to them was how important, even in a selling situation, whether it's for your business or somebody else's, is that make sure that your values are clearly understood and represented, in any situation you're in, whether you're just informing a prospective client, whether you're helping sell a product or a service, that is the way that people understand right off the bat that there's that that's where trust is built, is what I said. That is where trust is built. And if if you're vulnerable about it or whatever reason, that's fine. People want people that are real, not some automaton. So they asked some very good questions. 2 or 3 of their students were very peppering me with some great questions. You know, about the benefit company they're asking me about, well, what if I go into a sales, you know, some scenarios about sales and what I really believe, you know, past that, that wonderful because I got a ton of inspiration coming out of that. And I said to my friend how much I loved it. And, I believe, And, I believe, Elin, that people really want- young people in particular - are looking for change. And again, there's a ton of research just on politics right now about what young people believe and think. And that's where I get my hope, I think I think we're kind of I think we're at an inflection point. And I think the idea is, you know, the data shows how much a millennial, a Gen Z, progressive minded generation's what they want right now. And I think this is going to be one of those things where, you know, becoming certified as a B Corp or a Benefit Corporation or through Green America or whatever, the whatever the certification is, I think that's going to be as standard as, you know, getting a business license. I think it's going to be not the outlier, but it's going to be mainstream. And I think this next generation or two are really driving that change. They see a lot of stuff that's not great right now, and I think this is where I get a ton of hope. I'm very inspired by them. They ask great questions. And they're very passionate. You know, they believe it. And that's that's you know, that's the kind of thing I see at our we have a what an event called a happy hour for good which is twice quarterly. I bring together everybody's invited. There is nobody excluded. I get sometimes students, I get young leaders. And the energy in that room, you know, we have one speaker talks a little bit about something that will help them be better purpose driven leaders. And the energy that comes out of that room is absolutely magical. And I come out of there just absolutely buzzing. And I've been doing this for four years now. I mean, that that event we've been doing for four years, we're doing our first online event in two weeks. And so we want to get all our businesses that are outside that aren't able to be in person, at least be part of the energy. And, you know, the fabric of our community. Yeah. No, that that's thank you for sharing all that. That's that's really uplifting and optimistic. So I agree with the inflection point thing. I do believe that and look forward to seeing what the younger people and, and us wise older people can come up with for the future. What- there's a question we like to ask everybody. Always interesting. What does impact mean to you? Yeah. So I think that's a that's a pretty great question. I think a pretty simple one for me to answer. And I think that, you know, impact is really, to me, leaving something better than I found it. And being able to prove it, being able to prove it. You know, back in the day, I was a Boy Scout, and that was kind of one of the ethos. That's part of the ethos of being that you always leave the campsite better than you found it, etc. and I've always tried to do that. You know, when my boys were young, you know, they're young adults now, bringing them up sharing that. And I think that is so important that accountability really makes the difference, of course. And I said, sometimes you're camping by yourself or you're on the street by yourself. Only you know what you did. But you have to live with yourself. You know, nobody else does, really. You have to live with whatever your actions are done. So, you know, I think on a personal level, this this third act has been without a doubt the most meaningful part of my career. And I think just based on exactly that, where I, you know, I get people that not only want to make impact, but are practicing that in their business, in their personal lives. And that's what I'm just trying to do, you know, one certified BCFG at a time. Yeah, yeah. So There you go. Yeah. And you're doing it. Well, I, I'm very grateful. I tell you what, my community, they are really super great. They're they're inspiring people, every single one of them. So regardless of what their history is, you know, we have a good mix of industries, but they're all doing great work and they all believe, I think kind of like, certainly you believe and certainly I believe and that makes me happy. So that's back again. Back to that hope thing, you know. Yeah. No, I love that. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. It's great information and inspirational and all the things. So I really appreciate that. And I'm happy to help get the word out about what you do and why you do it. And who can benefit from becoming a benefit corporation. So what's the best way for people to find you? Yeah. So outside of our website benefitcorporationsforgood.com, I know that's a the mouthful and not like perfect. But it has been our name for a long time. It's one place to start. And then if people want to see even more timely our LinkedIn page, Ben Corps for Good is a very robust and active page where people can find out. And again, if people want to follow up on have questions based on whatever I've shared with you, they can certainly reach out to me. I always I'm very willing to get on a call with anybody. So that's How would they would they find you through your website? Or what's the best - Yeah, that'd be the best way. We have a contact page. All they've got to do is fill out, say, “hey, I want to talk to you.” I just got something from somebody last night, and I'm getting that set up, so. Yeah, I, I love doing that. So I want to be as accessible and however I can help, however I can help them, I am ready, willing and able. Awesome. Great. Well, thank you for taking the time to talk with me today and looking forward to our next conversation. I so appreciate your time, Elin. And great questions. And yeah. And continued success for you on this, this great podcast you've got. Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much.

Our “Make An Impact” Tip of the month: 39:55

Go to benefitcorporationsforgood.com, click “Get Certified” and take the free 12 question values- alignment quiz to see where your company or organization is at. Then discuss the results with your team and choose one next action step to take. Thanks for listening and make sure to do good in the world this month. If you have questions you'd like us to address on the podcast, you can reach us at info@riveocreative.com. Subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on any of our incredible upcoming guests. We'll see you soon at the Riveo Impact Lab.