A Journey to Pakistan with Nosheen Babar As My Guide

The underrated and undiscovered Pakistan through the lens of a Pakistani food blogger who moved from Pakistan to Mississippi.

Blogger of the very popular:  Untold Recipes By Nosheen, Nosheen’s blog is all about authentic Pakistani cuisine, with many of the dishes originating out of Nosheen’s little red book of recipes past down through the generations in her family.

In this episode Nosheen generously shares about her life and perspective.  A few teasers about what you will hear:

• Nosheen talks about her journey from Pakistan to Mississippi
• Growing up as young girl in Pakistan
• The importance of hospitality, family and connection in Pakistani culture. 
• And so much more…oh yes, and my favourite topic, traveling in Pakistan.

Enjoy this episode, I loved it!


HELPFUL LINKS

• Get Nosheen’s free guide: 10 Must-Have Spices For Pakistani Cooking, Plus Their Easy To Find Substitutes & My Favourite Online Spice Stores
• Read Nosheen’s Blog: Untold Stories By Nosheen including her Chicken Pulao recipe
• Connect with Nosheen on Instagram and Facebook
• Art project in Karachi Biennale Trust (Promoting Art)  https://karachibiennale.org.pk/
• Pakistan tour companies recommended by Nosheen: https://thebigskyadventures.com, https://cubeedutours.com
• Get my FREE guide:  10 Unique Travel and Food Tips You Won't Find Anywhere Else

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In My Kitchen creates connections one dish, one story, one journey at a time, by exploring culture through food.  We do this through unique culinary workshops, speaking engagements, and of course, this podcast.

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Transcript

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Paula Mohammed: In this episode, I'm talking to Nosheen who currently lives in Mississippi, but is originally from Pakistan. This episode really hit home for me. As I've mentioned previously, my father was from Pakistan, but he never really talked about it too much. So I was so excited to dive deep into the culture, cuisine and travels of Pakistan with Nosheen. 

We talk about growing up in Pakistan, the Pakistani hospitality, such as respect for elders and the importance of food and cooking. Nosheen is probably one of the most knowledgeable people that you'll have a chance to listen to about Pakistani cuisine. My favorite part of this episode, though, is when we start talking about travel and Pakistan. And how it is possible to travel safely there now. And Nosheen gives very specific tips and advice on how to do that. Anyway the best person to chat to you about all this is Nosheen so let's get right to it. 

Hi Nosheen. Welcome to the show.

Nosheen Babar: Thank you, Paula. I'm so excited to be here and talk about Pakistan with you.

Paula Mohammed: Just to start, I'm going to give, uh, our listeners a little bit of background and introduce you.

Nosheen's culinary journey started 27 years ago when she married and moved to the USA in 1996, and it didn't take her long to realize that her small red notebook full of handwritten family recipes would need to be tweaked to suit her new environment. Different ingredients, kitchen tools, and equipment meant that all the recipes would need to be adapted in order to taste just like the ones she grew up eating.

Her blog pays homage to her culinary journey and acts as a guide for all aspiring cooks who have an interest in authentic Pakistani cuisine. When I first visited Nosheen's blog, , I was like, oh my gosh, this is just what I've been looking for because my Pakistani cuisine repertoire is kind of three dishes that I have from our family, so I'm really excited to learn more.

 I love your recipes because they're like you said in your intro, you, you tweak them and they're easy to find the ingredients and they're simple and they're delicious. The fact that you've got this little red book,

Nosheen Babar: I was just going to show it to you.

The interesting part is I for the last three years had lost it and I was beyond myself because there's still some things that although I've cooked 20 plus times I like to refer to the notes in here. And I recently was cleaning my house and deep clean for the wedding that was you know my daughter's wedding and I found it. And I I think I was so excited my whole family was like, oh my god, it's just a book.

I'm like, but this is, this is just, you know, these are memories for me. And then I have sticky notes here as I collected stuff from friends and people. You know, the journey starts with our parents and grandparents. But then it continues, especially if you're looking at 27 years and you meet people and friends and you get and collect tips and other recipes and everything merges into what becomes now this my nuclear family's repertoire of recipes and possibly my kids' red or yellow or black notebook, you know. So, um, so that is the red notebook.

Paula Mohammed: I'm so glad you found it. I just think that's so special. And what you said too, is, is it's kind of the story of our families through the generations and gets tweaked along the way. Nosheen, in your blog, you say that to understand Pakistani cuisine is to understand Pakistani culture and vice versa.

Can you tell us a little bit about Pakistani cuisine and culture and what you mean by that statement?

Nosheen Babar: So generally, just as an overview, Pakistanis are the probably the biggest group of foodies, or South Asians generally, but Pakistanis just love to eat. And any gathering, any small or big occasion is just like the first thing you think of is like, "Oh, I'm going to cook this. I'm going to make that."

And we all love friends and family when we get together, we've just walked in the door, we're sitting down, we haven't even eaten the food and we're planning the next get together and the menu for the next thing. And that's just who we are. It's our culture. You know, if you go deeper and you look at what is culture. Culture is just customs, traditions, the habits of a group. Um, it can be based on religion and so many other factors and forces.

So in many ways, these things will define your food, your cuisine, how you eat, what you eat, uh, you know, where you eat, um, all those factors. Similarly, certain foods, certain recipes impact the culture. For example, let me start with like Pakistani culture. We have, I think, like four different kind of groups.

So on the religious side, of course, you know, we don't eat pork, but we're big like meat eaters. And we don't eat, we're not vegetarians like Indians who are our neighbors. And we were all one country at one time. For us, vegetables and lentils are like the sides or they're mixed with the meat, you know, so that's something I think that's just like, if you look at like Muslims across the world, you'll find that they eat a lot more meat and this is just a general pattern.

Then you look at customs. For example, tea time is a custom in Pakistan. It's almost a fourth meal. It's like, whether you have a cup of tea and one small biscuit or you have a lavish tea: you have tea every day. Everyone in Pakistan has it and it's on a little tea trolley just like the British used to do it and that's something we inherited from when we were ruled by the British.

Then you have traditions, you know, like at weddings or when a child is born you have certain desserts or sweets like mithai, Gulab Jamun all those that are traditionally a symbol of a celebration. You'll see it, you'll think wedding, you'll think child. And then you also have a lot of other holidays: some religious, some non religious, where you cook certain things.

Like for me, if I think of Korma and Roghni Naan, I think wedding. It's a traditional wedding meal, you know. I think of Eid, which is a holiday, and I think of a roasted leg of goat, or I'll think of biryani. So similarly, Just like the culture is defining this food or what we eat, and you begin to associate the minute you see that food.

Oh, it's Eid, or this is a tea time thing, and you start to understand that culture. How they eat, when they eat, what, what they do. Similarly, certain foods, for example, if you look at all our complex recipes, like Nihari, Biryani, um, you know, Koftas, Korma. Those are the stuff we do at special occasions, you know. So automatically that food is defining the culture in a way. It's not something you can cook every day; it takes six to eight hours, whereas the simpler day to day stuff is just basic lentils and what you are saying, you know how to cook, those are the three pretty basic things that we cook every day. So that's kind of what I mean by that term and because food is such a universe, it's a universal language.

People forget barriers and cultures and things that they didn't know. Geographical boundaries disappear when you start talking food. And for me, as my kids were growing up, this was a way to connect. And now that they're adults, I see that they have this understanding of our Pakistani culture as defined through the food. But it's just, it started that conversation or it made it possible. That's what I mean by that statement. 

Paula Mohammed: So you might make a certain dish at dinnertime and the kids will, your children as they grow up, they ask about it. They want to know and that then lends itself to a story about your family. 

Nosheen Babar: Yeah, yeah.

Paula Mohammed: Have you been back and have your children been back to Pakistan?

Nosheen Babar: So we have been going to Pakistan like throughout. We used to go every year when they were younger. Um, and then as they got little bit older, like I think my eldest stopped when she went to college just because it was just logistically difficult for her summer classes, this, that. So up until the age of 18, she went every year with me.

With the younger two, it was pretty much the same. We tapered it to every other year just because, again, like I said school and, uh, you know, summer activities and all. The biggest gap that we've had has actually just been because of COVID. We were supposed to go that year and we had to cancel the trip. Um, and then I was supposed to go last year and then my daughter was getting married. But yeah, we go frequently despite whatever is going on back home because you can visit safely. You may not be able to go out as much or do certain things. But to be very honest, Pakistan has been in this situation for the last, I would say, 30 odd years since I've been a teenager, and you just learn to live with it. And I've been so fortunate that I've been able to take my kids so often because they have a connection with Pakistan because of that.

Paula Mohammed: I'm glad, I'm happy to hear that you've been able to go back frequently aside from COVID. So yes, congratulations. Your daughter got married. So now I have to ask, because I'm very curious, what was the cuisine? What was the food that was served at the wedding?

Nosheen Babar: Yes, so this was really interesting. It was like a year in the making, obviously first child getting married and I, I think I've written this at a point in time or maybe in a newsletter. So I'm a first generation immigrant and for me to let go of certain things is a little bit different. But I think over the last few years especially as my kids are becoming adults, and I mean, I've given them whatever I could of my culture and heritage and all, but they are Americans.

They were born here and they've lived here. And I've always felt that the best way forward is to kind of meet in the middle with them and honor that. Because it was mine and my husband's decision to bring them here to this country and you know, they are who they are and it won't change. And all three are very different and so this, my eldest wanted a very atypical Pakistani wedding, so we had a few little touches here and there but you know, and I, I'll be honest, I struggled with it in the beginning.

Like, no, are you not going to do this? Are you not going to do that? But I understood that it was her wedding. It was her day. And she wanted it to be the way she had dreamed it. It was a little bit of fusion. And we did some ceremonies which were like on a more private scale with just close family and friends.

Um, and I do have to give a shout out to my friends here in town who are like family. I've known them for 20 years. They actually hosted a small Pakistani-style ceremony where, you know, her in-laws and her fiancé, now husband, were there. And for that, she was like, okay, you can do whatever you want. And she dressed up in Pakistani clothes and, you know, the food was strictly Pakistani, but the main wedding was kind of a fusion.

And then, for the food we did fusion. Our appetizers were part-Pakistani and part-Korean, because my son-in-law has some Korean ancestry in his family. So we decided, you know, we should honor that. So the appetizers were a fusion and the main sit-down meal was traditional American buffet. And then at home, I, when I had my family over, we had like the mithai, that we always have at festive occasions. And so we ate that, so for us it felt like it was a wedding. And all my girls wore something traditional. I wore something traditional. So we just kind of made it work and it turned out beautiful and it was just, I would say maybe a new tradition we've established. 

I could see my father was beaming and the bride and groom were happy. His family were happy. So, um, it was an unusual Pakistani wedding, but a new tradition for us.

Paula Mohammed: Kudos to you, Nosheen. It's not easy raising kids or teenagers. It's about that letting go and letting them be who they are. And one of the things I wanted to ask you is, how was it raising your three kids in the United States with maintaining your Pakistani culture and values? And you've just explained that beautifully, how you did it. 

But the food I bet was absolutely amazing. Korean and South Asian fusion. That would be, that would be amazing. 

So Pakistan and you're now in the Mississippi. What was that like? How was that for you? I mean those are two very different places. And is there a Pakistani community around you?

Nosheen Babar: So yeah, it's been an interesting journey. I've lived in different places within the United States also as a child, as an, as an adult. So for five years we were in Manhattan between the ages of seven to 12. My father was posted there. He was a banker. So he was there for five years. So that was a whole different world for me.

And then I moved back to Pakistan when I was about 12, 13, and I continued my education there. I started working there. I was a banker myself. I worked at Bank of America and then I met my husband through a friend at work. He was her husband's friend and we met. And then I came to America, Ijlal was, he's a physician and he was training in Arizona.

So we lived in Arizona in Tucson for a few years. We enjoyed it but we always- so when I got married, we always had this view that we're going to move back to Pakistan. We're going to try and make it work. Our families are there and let's see, you know, how it works out. So we did move back for three years and most physicians can either move back for three years and then come back, or they can work in a small town and do what's called a waiver and then they can apply for the Green Card. For us it wasn't even because of that, it was just "let's go home". So we did go back and we went back to Karachi, where we are both pretty much grown up. I was born in Lahore. I'm Punjabi. 

But, so, we grew up there and we tried our best to make it work. There were some good things and some bad things. I only had one child at that time. But, you know, Pakistan had politically and, um, in terms of law and order, Pakistan has started deteriorating when I was like in my teens. Before that, I would say I loved living there, it was wonderful, but during my teens I saw things declining and when we went back it, you know, there were so many things that happened. Or we saw the economy wasn't good and I didn't see myself raising my kids there. I didn't think their future would be as bright as it would be here. It was not an easy decision. We struggled with it and at the point in time that we were about to move, as in we had a job, my husband had a job in Arizona back at his University of Arizona, we were sitting with everything packed up in our house. He had told work in Pakistan he was leaving. My daughter was, I had told the Montessori she went to that we are leaving, 9/11 happened. And we actually sat down and rethought our whole decision like okay so now do we want to do this? And it wasn't easy but you know things just kind of played in a certain way and we did land up back here.

And throughout those so many years, we often thought about it, like when they were younger. Maybe we can go back. Maybe we shouldn't. But I can honestly say right now where I am, where my husband is, where my kids are, I'm actually very grateful that we are here, given the situation Pakistan is in right now.

Um, like I said, politically, law and order-wise and economy is just terrible, you know. And I don't think I would have been able to give my kids the education and the lifestyle that they have. And because we've been going back and forth, I've tried to give them the best of both worlds and give them that connection, um, that they had.

So we came back to Arizona and, you know, we were happy there because that's where we had lived. We had friends, connections, and my daughter was going to a fantastic preschool there. But, we have a friend who lives here and we had visited them. Um, and Mississippi, I know everyone has this concept of Mississippi. Now I'm on the Gulf Coast about an hour and a half away from New Orleans. So we are also where there's like the food scene is amazing for someone like me who loves food. It's been amazing. We have a big city and a big airport close by and our reason for moving was this friend who's like family. He and my husband are, I think, have known each other since med school, that's like 30 plus years. So there was a job opening and it wasn't a waiver job per se. We didn't need that, but it was, I think they were desperate for a pulmonologist. And when we weren't really thinking of moving. I was pregnant with my second child, but when we came here, we actually just really liked the environment. It's a small close knit community in this town. It's a very pretty seaside town and, you know, there's pros and cons to everything. So, yes, Mississippi is conservative, but I basically come from a conservative country. So some of the things that I saw the way kids treat their elders and always address them as ma'am and sir was like oh my god this is amazing. This is like back home. And just kind of getting to know people on you know your neighbors and people your kids go to school with, you don't get that in big cities here. And for someone who's an immigrant, that's special.

So, the job offer was fantastic and we thought, you know what, we'll just take it and we'll try it out for a few years and if it doesn't work out, we'll move and it really has been wonderful. 

Like I said, we're pretty centrally located. So, we were like able to travel and get that big city environment or atmosphere whenever we wanted to but for day to day living, it's been a great place to raise my kids. Um, and they love it.

Paula Mohammed: Can you tell me what it was like growing up before your teens in Pakistan? 

Nosheen Babar: I've always been in big cities. I was born in Lahore, which is also a big city. It's in the province of Punjab. Pakistan has four main provinces. And, uh, so Lahore is also a big city, but I was about four when we moved to Karachi, which is I would say, the equivalent of, say, some place like New York is for America. It's like the business hub and, you know, it's a port and all the trade and everything. And it's like a melting pot where you have people who have migrated from all different cultures, even when they migrated from India. You'll see a lot of foreigners there too. So it was a big city with different influences as far as food, clothing, everything was concerned. So my family does have some land and a village associated with that land in Punjab, where we go just for a weekend trip and all and that's fun.

But I basically, it's funny that I'm in a small town now because I'm essentially a city girl and every, at least once a year, I have to go to a big city, whether it's in Pakistan or here. Whether it's New York or Chicago or someplace to get that vibe or that feel. It just energizes me. 

So a typical day in Pakistan is you wake up and Pakistani routine is more laid back than American routine. The day starts a little bit later. School starts at 7:30, 8. That's because of the heat and it closes by 1, 1:30. So you come home and you have lunch, a proper lunch, with your family. But most offices and workplaces, maybe not for physicians, but like the businesses and the banks, start by like around 9-ish. And then they end like 4 or 5, just like here. Housewives and kids, when school ends, will have like a siesta. It's so hot in the afternoon that you really can't go anywhere or do anything. So you'll have this little period, you'll come home, have lunch from two to four or five. You may, may not sleep, but you'll just pretty much be at home, doing homework or whatever. Then you have tea time. That's when the dads and everybody comes home from work. And it's also the time between tea and dinner. Dinner is about 8, 8:30 or 9 for most people. We used to have just one TV channel which had the nightly news at like about 8, 8:30. So either people ate just before that at eight or they ate right after that at nine, depending on your family structure, when you went to sleep. And most people sleep late.

So between tea and dinner and that news time is also the time when you will have family and friends just dropping in to visit. It's not customary to call and say. You just like, the doorbell will ring, so you come out of that afternoon siesta, and you're kind of dressed, not formally, but you're dressed to receive guests, and you always have something in your fridge or freezer that will, you'll be able to serve. Like at home, my tea would just be a cup of tea, maybe a small cookie, but I would have cocktails, samosas, kebabs, something in the freezer that I could cook up quickly for when friends come because it's customary that you do that. And it would be a fun part of the evening to be really honest.

And there's not or never has been in the past when I was growing up a lot of emphasis on after-school activities. It was more like family-centric activities like this, you know, family's coming, friends are coming, and these friends are like family, they go back generations. And that's what I also mean about food and culture being intertwined.

Whether it's tea time or lunch or dinner, food is always there. If someone drops by and they're just sitting talking, you'll invite them for dinner and you'll always have something. It's not like, "Oh my god, I cooked for four people. Now what am I going to do?" You'll have something to pull out or you'll order from outside.

So it's all very, very like a very social environment. And I would say that kids learn a lot of social skills very early on in their lives. In fact, I sometimes feel that that's where I find a gap between my kids and maybe my cousin's kids growing up. You learn very early on like how do you treat elders or you know what do you do with this age group. Like you stand up, anytime an older person walks in the room you stand up to say "Salaam" which is like hello and sometimes I was like my god why aren't my kids doing this and I realized like but there is just you see everyone around you doing it so you just learn these little things that are you know the respect for elders or um and I think cooking is just so natural to us, like over here, when I hear people say, I don't like to cook, like, I don't think that's even a thing in Pakistan.

Everyone knows how to cook. They may not love it, but they know how to cook. And I have yet to meet a Pakistani person, even someone saying they hate it, who is a bad cook. It's just automatically passed down. And even when you're young, um, like I made samosas recently and I was thinking like I learned that maybe when I was 10, 12 because my mother would be like sit here with me and fold them. But it was a fun activity because my sister and I and my mother, if it was I had a cousin or an aunt we'd all be doing it, so you're talking and you're laughing and you're gossiping it's just like you know that's just a way of life. Um and it just encourages everyone to, you know, keep families close. So that's a typical day. 

And then weekends, you wake up leisurely. And again, I think the focus is like, it's a weekend, so let's have some family over. And it's not always formal. It's not a formal form of entertaining. That happens once in a while and on formal occasions.

Otherwise, it's just like friends and family dropping in, visiting, or you'll go out. "Let's go for ice cream or eat out." And when I was growing up before my teen years, because everything was so safe, you could at times just walk to a place and grab something to eat or go out for a walk in the evenings. And Karachi is beautiful. The climate, it's by the sea and evenings are breezy. And so I remember like, uh, you know summer my fam, aunt or my cousin is visiting and we'll just be spending the day when it's hot, go out, maybe do a little shopping, grab something to eat, read books. 

Paula Mohammed: Right.

Nosheen Babar: So those are like my memories that I have and they're precious because in a world where we have so much of everything, I think we didn't take anything for granted. It's different in Pakistan now, but when my kids go back, I think they get a little inkling of that and they do come back and start appreciating the basics.

Like every year when we would go in the summer, they'd be like, oh my god, central air conditioning is amazing or just going out and being able to eat without worrying about getting sick, because "Can I eat from here? Can I eat from there?" So those are I think, gifts that I had or in a way that I've been able to give my kids that I didn't even think about.

Um, you know. But when they go back, they can't experience the Pakistan that I grew up in, I feel, because it's not that safe for me to take them everywhere. And I do wish it wasn't like that, because I had an amazing childhood. Pakistan was like, I think maybe I would have still been there, raising my kids, but unfortunately it wasn't, you know?

Paula Mohammed: Is the food quite regionalized in Pakistan between the provinces? 

Nosheen Babar: It does because a lot of it has to do with the ingredients that you can source. Then it has to do with living conditions, because these four provinces are very different. And, you know, Pakistan has so many different borders. So on the West, we border Iran and Afghanistan. On the East, we border India. And on the North, we border China. So you will see these influences in the cuisines of those provinces very clearly. In the North, which is NWFP, Northwest Frontier Province, which is bordering Afghanistan, you see a very strong Afghani influence. There's a lot of, like, grilled meats and some of it with fat.

And if you look at the climate and the terrain, you understand why they're eating like that. You know, the terrain is very mountainous. There are distances where people, if you live in a village, you do have to walk a lot. In winter it is extremely cold, so that fatty meat will probably keep you warm as you metabolize it. It's necessary. It will also give you energy, so that's where you'll find a lot of the kebabs and the grilled meats and these special kind of naans and all.

In Punjab, which is the most fertile, is you'll have all these things that grow there like mustard greens, Sarson Ka Saag, with Makai, which is a corn flatbread, is from there during the season. And then you have people who are working the land, and then they eat a certain way. So mealtimes are also structured. They eat really early, go work, come home earlier, have two big meals versus, you know, a big lunch. At lunch, it'll just be maybe lassi, which is like a yogurt and kind of a smoothie because that's all they can manage. It's hot and that's all they need. Um, then in Sindh and Balochistan, you have water, so you will have a lot of seafood that you won't see in the other parts.

In the north, you have dishes which are similar to dumplings. Some of the areas have a dumpling kind of a dish which actually I'm like working on. I wasn't that familiar with it and I'm like, oh it makes perfect sense because they're close to China so they have these dumplings and they're big on wheat. Even their like vegetables have, they'll make this wheat, uh, kind of a flat bread, cut it and chop it and add it to the vegetables because that's what they can source easily. It's not someplace they can get rice. They may have meat, um, local goat meat or whatever they raise, uh, sheep. But so it is definitely very, very different. The one city where you find a fusion of everything is Karachi and not only will you find a fusion of Pakistani regional stuff, you'll find a lot of stuff that came when people migrated from India and then India is also regional so you'll see Hyderabadi food, um, food from Lucknow, Bombay, those kind of dishes or, um, South Indian dishes.

And that has become common in that part of Pakistan, but you won't see it being eaten as much in other parts of Pakistan.

Paula Mohammed: Gosh, it makes me want to go and travel through the provinces on a food tour and just

Nosheen Babar: I would take you any day.

Paula Mohammed: Okay. I'm going to take you up on that.

Nosheen Babar: I will take you. You'd have a place to stay. Um, on that topic, there are a lot of very structured tours in Pakistan now. And they've keep, they've kept the environment in mind, and these are guided tours with multiple guides, transport provided, they'll pick you up in the airport and they'll be with you from start to finish.

There will be like one, they'll have armed escort, so you can do everything in a very safe and comfortable way. They know where to take you, where not to take you. And there's smaller tours, like there's a food tour in the city of Lahore. There's a walled city tour in Lahore, which is the older part of Lahore. And they've refurbished it and redone it. Architects have gotten together and it looks just like ancient Lahore did. Beautiful. These narrow lanes and you literally can go back in time. You feel like you're there at the time and the like partition took place. This is I'm talking about like 50 years ago.

So you have tours like that now and these are people like my peers from school, um, one of them has a husband who left his like job in a bank and he's got this company because this is what he wants to do and he takes these tours up north and I've seen pictures and they're phenomenal. And you can structure it the way you want: activities that you would want to do. Like you want it to be food centric or scenic or you know, whatever. 

So it's not as impossible as people think. I think where we lack as a country is, um, maybe publicizing it. And I think the previous government was trying to do better at it. But, uh, our governments shift and change so often. That's why you see the change. But there are travel agencies that you can hook up with and it is not as unsafe as people think. Plus minus, you know. But you could go and do more than you think you could.

Paula Mohammed: That's, that's very promising. I'll put in the show notes, your friend's, the name of your friend's tour company. 

Nosheen Babar: Yes, I will look it up. I'm pretty sure it's called Sky Tours. 

Paula Mohammed: Nosheen, your blog is about authentic Pakistani cuisine and the name of the blog is Untold Stories by Nosheen?

Nosheen Babar: Untold Recipes by Nosheen.

Paula Mohammed: Untold recipes, sorry. Untold Recipes by Nosheen. And I also know you're passionate about how South Asian cuisine is represented.

I can see that talking to you now, the passion of sort of, um, igniting the Pakistani, uh, culture and putting it out there to the world. Can you tell our listeners more about your concerns in this area, specifically around South Asian cuisine and how it's represented and how you think this could change or how you might facilitate change in your areas of concern?

Nosheen Babar: So when I actually started my blog that's what I wanted to do: I wanted to share my untold recipes, family recipes, and share the stories behind them because our culture is very rich. I mean, Pakistan is not a very old country, but it still has a culture that dates back to, especially the food culture, art culture, everything dates back to about 400 years ago from the time that the Mughals were there.

And I feel that as, and I'm partially to blame for this too, uh, we live in this culture where we are just trying to wake up in the morning and get through a day, start to finish. And we want everything to be quick and easy for us. And you know, quick and easy meals, let's put this on the table. We've lost touch with a lot of the things that I've just talked to you about: growing up in Pakistan, the family, the connection, what food really meant or what it brought about, you know, those connections. 

And I think because I launched my blog during COVID, all of that kind of came back because we were going back and doing that. You know, my kids were home, we were all, all of us, even people who didn't like to cook were cooking more, they were exploring all these, um, foreign cuisines. There are a lot of very good Pakistani blogs, there are a lot of Indian blogs. I still feel that there's room for more on the part of Pakistanis, and I know there's so many of us who are trying to do that: push different aspects of our culture. Food for sure is one, and that's one I know, you know, very close. I know who's doing what. And there are recipes within my culture and cuisine that take half an hour to make. You know, there are some that take seven hours to make. But I want to appreciate and honor each one of those recipes and remain authentic to them.

What I see happening a lot is that people want to eat biryani, but they want a 30-minute version of it. When you look at what this, what, what biryani is, how it's made. It's essentially like three recipes in one, which is why it takes so long. There is a way to break it down and do it in bits and pieces and still get that authentic recipe. It's like you do a task that would take you two hours and you break it down into a small 15 minute tasks. So you'd still be doing it very efficiently. But in my personal opinion, like if you try to do it in half an hour, even an hour, you'd be getting a version of biryani, but you wouldn't be getting the real thing.

There's nothing wrong with having a version of something. There's nothing wrong with fusion cuisine. But there's something to be said about that authentic thing and preserving it and wanting to preserve it. Now, it's not for everybody, you know, but I think, and I feel there are enough people out there who are interested enough in learning about it. 

And also, if you look at people who are writing these Pakistani recipes, some are Pakistani, many are not. And that's fine. I want them to cook this food, but they obviously are getting their information from some source: either they ate it somewhere or they looked up a recipe somewhere.

What I see is that they're putting these recipes out, but they're not necessarily honoring the people and the culture that have given them these recipes. And that's what I really have a problem with. I wouldn't even call it a problem. I would just say, I would like to see more of. Like I wouldn't put up a Korean recipe and say it's authentic because it's not authentic. I obviously either ate something at a restaurant, I liked it, then I found a recipe that was similar to it and I said, okay, I like it. Then I maybe put my own touch on it.

But I have to honor the culture it came from. I have to honor the person whose recipe I adapted to my version of it. Um, that's all I'm trying to aim at. And my specific blog, I want it to be a reference tool for people who want to create recipes and given how complex all South Asian cuisine is, whether it's Pakistani or Indian, I will say that you have to cook it a few times and get the feel of it before you can recreate it.

There's so many layers to it. There's the part where you need to know how to blend spices properly. Then there's specific techniques that go into the cooking process. Once you understand it, by all means, you can make changes like, "oh, I could do it like this and get the same results and make it quicker and easier".

But if you don't know enough about it, I feel that like, it would fall short of being authentic is all I'm saying. You can say it's your version or a quicker version or just like we have Italian cuisine and then we have American Italian cuisine. You know, American is so different, but they don't claim to be the authentic version from Italy. And, you know, I think in a real Italian would get offended. That's just what my take on it is.

Paula Mohammed: What I hear you saying, Nosheen, is that it's about protecting the culture and the heritage and where these recipes came from. 

Nosheen Babar: Yeah. 

Paula Mohammed: Like sometimes I don't want to spend hours making a certain dish and I'll make it in a different way and it's faster and

Nosheen Babar: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Paula Mohammed: And there's nothing wrong with that, but there's something to be said about understanding the culture and the stories behind the recipes, which as you know, is what In My Kitchen is all about and as I'm talking to you, I'm like, I, I can't remember if you're going to do this or not, but I see like, I'm seeing a, a course from Nosheen that teaches step, lesson one, how to blend spices, lesson two: how to cook rice. You know, like, is that something you see coming down the pipeline?

Nosheen Babar: I do. I would love to do that. I love blogging and I started it. And I love the blogging space, but just because you're catering to a specific group of people through blog, through my, through the blog, through a blog and that's a different audience. And what you're describing is a different audience.

So I do do cooking classes and that is for people who do want maybe a deeper dive. But a deep, detailed course is what I would love to do. And it's not rocket science. It's really very simple and it's just repetitive. You know, like I learned basic recipes and I just repeat, repeat, repeat so often that I know them by heart and then because I knew them as I've cooked them over the 20 years and like you have said, sometimes I just needed to get food on the table, so I was like, maybe I can do this and I try it. Some things would work and some things wouldn't work. We're also fortunate that we have a lot more places where we can outsource food. We can outsource spice blends. There are a couple of really good ones. Pakistani ones for the first time in the market, like small batch products here in America, and I'm just so proud. And there are people, you know, who again want to honor the culture or were not finding what they wanted and they're doing well.

One is Karachi Kitchen. She does spice blends. She's a trained chef. Her name is Kausar. She's written a cookbook a cookbook called I think, In the Karachi Kitchen. I have it somewhere here. Yeah, it's called The Karachi Kitchen. She does teaching classes in, um, in Seattle and she works in Pakistan too and now she's got her, her brand, Karachi Kitchen.

They have spice blends which are really close to what you would get, make at Home. She has specific chutneys. And the other one is Peepal People. P-E-E-P-A-L. People. Peepal. Peepal is the name of a tree and the concept is, you know, she remembers sitting under the tree. So the people of the Peepal tree, essentially, and she's come up with these sauces, hot sauces, and I love them. These are both very new brands. So, so I think people are beginning to, you know, do, uh, what I want to kind of do through my business in different formats and it's just a question of getting it out there. 

I think Pakistanis have been late to the game a little bit. You'll see so many more Indian blogs and books and restaurants. They are more in number also. It's a bigger population abroad and here. But I think Pakistanis are just now beginning to realize like, hey, we haven't done enough of it to preserve our culture. And as more and more of us are living here, we're like, we need to do this for our kids if no one else, you know, to preserve it so they have something to go to if they are interested at any stage.

Paula Mohammed: Absolutely. I think it's important for all cultures for the next generations to preserve and carry on the recipes and traditions and put their own mark on it too, but not to let those stories and recipes be lost. This is a perfect segue into asking you to share with us the dish recipe that you're sharing with our listeners as each guest does.

Nosheen Babar: So Chicken Pulao is one of my personal favorites. It's a one pot dish the way I make it. Traditionally, it's made in two different dishes. You make the Yakhni or the broth and the chicken and then you separate it. But I have managed to make it in one pot over the years and it turns out great. It's a simple recipe, but it's just so flavorful. It's not spicy. So it's one of those recipes that I always cook for people when they're first being introduced to Pakistani food because it just eases their palate into it. And it uses whole spices as aromatics, which was big during the Mughal era. You know, and when Persian food first came and then the, the Mughals started using those recipes and changing them up a little bit. 

It's also one of the first cooking classes I've ever done and everybody liked it. And I think everyone was fascinated by our use of things like cinnamon and cloves and all those that they are traditionally are used for baking here and we use them in savory recipes. Other than that, it's just got like salt and maybe one other spice, but it's just like a dish of rice and tender, succulent meat.

 It's something that kids love. It's something I used to feed to my kids when they were toddlers, one of the first meals. You can add layers of things to it, vegetables and all, so it becomes like a one hearty meal. It pairs with another side dish or a full meat dish. It's just so versatile, the ways that you can make it and eat it and enjoy it. I think popular within our culture as well as abroad. So, and most people don't know about it. Most people associate biryani as the one meat and rice dish. This is much lighter, much quicker and easier to make and I think people are pleasantly surprised. They're like, oh, okay. So it's something I always like to feature from Pakistani cuisine.

Paula Mohammed: I've been throwing out teasers about your blog, but could you just let our listeners know, and I'll put this in the show notes, I'll put links, but how we can follow you. I didn't realize you had such a large presence on Facebook. I noticed that recently. So maybe you could tell us the best places where we can find your recipes and learn more about Pakistani cuisine.

Nosheen Babar: So I started, I actually started my blog as a Facebook page. I wanted to do something that was easy and people loved it and I wanted to see how it would do before I got into the business aspects of setting up a blog, which is why I have my greatest following on Facebook. Then I created the blog, which you can find just type untoldrecipesbynosheen. com. And it'll take you to my website and you'll see basically everything I have, all my recipes I have.

At this point about 170 recipes there. I'm constantly updating the recipes, trying to make them easier for the user and you know, so it's just an evolving space. You can always sign up for my newsletter. You can do it through the blog. There's a place you actually get a free guide to my 10 favorite spices, their substitutes and how to use them.

 I am on Instagram. I really love to hear from people. Whether it's a comment on the blog or just a message, you can just message me directly or in email, I will always answer you typically within 24 hours. 

If you're interested in cooking lessons, I do some public ones. I love to do individual or group ones. If you want to schedule that, I, I'd love to talk to you about it and, you know, teach you something specific. But yeah, so I can be found pretty much everywhere.

Paula Mohammed: Everywhere. And I have say you're, you have new recipes coming out all the time. You're very consistent.

This has been absolutely amazing. I feel like I've opened the door to Pakistan that I never really had seen or knew about. So I really appreciate, Nosheen, your time on my podcast.

I know our listeners would have got a lot of out of it, but especially just on a personal note, I've really enjoyed chatting to you and you're so knowledgeable about the cuisine culture. So I am. I am keen to go traveling there now, and I look forward to...

Nosheen Babar: We will plan a trip.

Paula Mohammed: Yes, and if you're coming up to the West Coast ever, let's do some cooking together in Vancouver.

Nosheen Babar: I would love to. 

Paula Mohammed: Wow. I feel like I have been sitting in Pakistan having tea with Nosheen. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. 

I am also super excited to offer my free guide, 10 Unique Travel and Food Tips You Won't Find Anywhere Else. The link is in the show notes and there's some really good info in there.

Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. If you have any questions, just ask me, I'll be happy to chat with you. In the meantime, take the first step on your next culinary adventure and sign up for my free guide!