In My Kitchen with Paula

A Taste of Alentejo and Lisbon with Maria João Carros

• Paula Mohammed • Episode 20

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Curious about the real Lisbon and Alentejo outside of tourist guides and google? Get a local’s take with Maria João Carros on our latest episode.

Maria shares her experiences and insights into Portuguese culture and cuisine. Maria explains her approach to enjoying food and wine in Portugal, highlighting the importance of socialization and savouring meals. She recounts her life growing up in Portugal, her education in the UK, her move to Canada following political turmoil in Portugal, and her continued connection to her native country. 

Maria’s conversation with Paula includes a lesson in how to drink white port and focuses on traditional Portuguese dishes, particularly from Lisbon and the Alentejo region, including Bacalhau and Pasteis de Nata. Maria discusses the importance of maintaining culinary traditions amid the rise of tourism. She also offers a recipe for an orange roulade.

HELPFUL LINKS

  • Get my free Travel Planning Tool
  • Try Maria’s Orange Roulade Recipe
  • Check out The Traditional Portuguese Cookbook by Maria de Lourdes Modesto (Wow, just checked and this is selling on amazon for close to $400, I am going to Portugal in March and will look for copies to bring back for anyone who is interested).
  • Another great cookbook is Cozinhar com vegetais by Maria de Lourdes Modesto (I will be trying to source this when I am in Portugal)
  • Get in touch with Maria on Instagram @artmjoaomd

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SAY HELLO

In My Kitchen creates connections one dish at a time, by exploring culture through food. I do this through unique culinary workshops, speaking engagements, and of course, this podcast.

I'd love to hear from you! Connect with me in one of three ways:

Paula: Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed, and welcome to In My Kitchen with Paula. This podcast is a gathering place for culinary adventures who love to travel. Every week, we'll come together with chefs, cookbook authors, talented home cooks, and everyone in between to talk about their story and their unique dish. Using food as the vehicle, we'll take a ride into the ins and outs of their culture and country.

Come on, let's get this party started.

It is great that I get to introduce this episode to you. I'm doing this the day after I actually had the conversation with Maria and I think I may have talked too much. I've lost my voice. Please bear with me. The rest of the interview sounds much better. This episode is all about Maria João Carros, who is from the Alentejo region of Portugal and now lives in Vancouver

maria divides her time between Vancouver and Lisbon, Portugal. This was a real treat to sit down with a local and really talk about the culture, the cuisine, the lifestyle and the changes that Maria has experienced and her opinions of what's happening in Lisbon and Alentejo today. If you're planning a trip or any future trips to Alentejo, Lisbon, anywhere in Portugal, you are going to love this episode.

Maria references and tells some personal anecdotes about the revolution that happened in 1974. So I want to briefly share some history with you. I'm going to read you an excerpt from The Guardian and it was written on April 26, 1974. An almost bloodless military coup yesterday toppled the Portuguese Prime Minister, Dr.

Marcello Caetano, and left the country in the hands of a junta, pledged to restore civil liberties after almost 50 years of dictatorial rule, end of quote. So a junta is a governing body or council. Alright, now that we're familiar with the history, we know where we want to go, let's get right to it. 

Welcome to the show, Maria. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have you. Before we even get started and I, before I even introduce you can you share with our listeners the treat that you brought for me today? 

Maria: Yes, I brought, Porto.

It's from, , Porto, , Douro River. And, uh, it's a Taylors Fladgate. And it's a fine white wine. Should be served extremely cold. And, should be, , used or drink before a meal. It's not after a meal, it's not too sweet, and it should be served very, very cold. 

Paula: So this is like a white port, right?

Yes, it's a white 

Maria: port, exactly. 

Paula: So ood? So ood? saudé? So Maria and I are going to be having sips of this throughout the podcast, and if we end up dancing on the table, so be it. 

Okay. So I'm so excited, to introduce Maria João Carros, to the podcast show today.

I've known Maria for a long time, and it actually is pretty special for me to have this chat with you today. Maria was born and raised in Lisbon. studied business and fine arts in the UK, has a passion for traveling, languages, and food, lives now part time in Vancouver, Canada, and part time in Lisbon, Portugal.

And in Portugal, she challenges her curiosity by using a full spectrum of emotions throughout food and wines. Maria, before we get going, can you tell me and our listeners a little bit more about What do you mean by that last sentence, using a full spectrum of emotions? 

Maria: In Portugal, when you have a meal, it means that, , we don't drink, uh, alcohol.

For drinking. We drink when we eat. And when we eat, we sit at the table and we sit at the table, we talk. So it's a way of socializing in a quiet, demure way. Um, it could be in a tiny little, restaurant. , it could be in a bar, it could be at home. Or it could be in any place, on the beach, uh, in the mountain, but food, it is the elasticity of love and friendship between us.

Paula: Savoring. 

Maria: It's 

Paula: everything. Yeah. 

Maria: We savor, you know, in a certain area, we will drive two and a half hours to go and have lunch in a tiny little restaurant in the middle of nowhere because they serve a special recipe or they have a special time in April if they have goat or in, uh, a near a river if they have oysters or by the seaside because they have the fresh lobster.

Everything is an excuse to get together and have a meal together. 

Paula: I remember speaking with you, Maria, um, in my parents kitchen years ago. So it's probably like we were just saying when I was 13 or 14. And we were standing in the kitchen, and you told me this beautiful story of your life in Portugal and your upbringing.

And it was at that moment that I said to myself, I have to go to Portugal. And then I did go in 1991. And then with your help, I lived there for a few months in 1998. And then went back in 2012 when your daughter got married. Was it 2012? Yes, 2011. 2011. And Maria's daughter got married in a castle in Sintra, which is the most magical and beautiful place in Portugal.

And it was the most magical and beautiful wedding I've ever been to. I would love for my listeners to hear a little bit about that story. Your, a little bit of the story of your life growing up in Portugal. 

Maria: Well, I was born in Restelo. Which is, um, just behind, if ever anybody goes to Portugal, is Belém, where Vasco da Gama left in his tall ship.

Um, in that area, Restelo, I lived there until I was, um, four, five years old. And then, uh, we moved into the very new part of Lisbon, has been rebuilt, completely new. And, uh, and that's where, uh, I lived until I got married. And, my parents, , gave me the place where, , we, where I grew up. And, um, that's where I live with my first husband.

I went to school, , two different orders, Dominicans and Dorotéias. , I love the education and the principles and what I learn. We are mainly Catholic in Portugal. My family is Christian. We didn't go to Mass every Sunday, but we had baptises and weddings, like Paula is saying.

My daughter married in a very nice family. 17th century church in Cascais. Then, um, I went to England. I attended Cambridge. For a year, then I came to London, was in West End College. I graduated the business school and then I went back to Portugal where I work and because of the political in 1976 I decided to leave for Canada for a few years and my life changed.

Paula: What was happening politically in Portugal then? Well 

Maria: in 74 we had a so expected and loved revolution. We went from a 30 years of autocratic system and then we turned into a democratic socialist system. I was part of the wave of the socialist and democratic. By coincidence, I ended up working for one of the generals that, uh, did the junta and, uh, lead or led the revolution.

and, , freed and supported the Captain's Revolution. So it was wonderful, was very exciting from 74. And then end of 75 to 76, we had a lot of Incidents which, um, the extreme left, 

Paula: um, 

Maria: Created. I lost, um, a cousin. . Uh, people disappeared. , it wasn't two, two more. Um. Portugal doesn't want to talk about it because it was a very brief, but it was very intense.

And my father at the time thought that, um, my safety wasn't exactly very good because things were coming down and all the democracy and socialists were being attacked. And so, uh, I decided to come out because my first husband had the opportunity to do a doctor. In North America, uh, in, uh, seismology. 

Paula: That must have been quite a change for you. Had you been to Canada before? 

Maria: Yes, we came in 75, because it happened I had an uncle here, the only person in my family who ever emigrated. And, uh, I went to New York and, uh, Boston and San Francisco, and then we decided to come to Vancouver since he lived in Vancouver.

Vancouver? And we had the opportunity to see Canada. And so we came here in 75, summer of 75. And I thought, um, Vancouver, um, it reminded me a little bit of Lisbon because of the waterfront. And I thought if I ever had to leave, this wouldn't be a bad place. I prefer to San Francisco, actually. And Anyways, we returned in August 1975 and we saw what was happening and then, you know, there was some turmoil, very, very violent turmoil.

And then in March, uh, May 1976, we decided to leave. We were accepted by the Canadian government to emigrate and we thought, well, might as And then we had the choice, San Francisco or Vancouver, but University of UBC, fought for my ex husband to have him, so. 

Paula: I'm glad you came to Vancouver. The lifestyle of growing up in Portugal, or even the lifestyle now, like, give me your typical Um, you get up, what that day looks like 

Maria: It all depends. I'm retired now, okay? So if you work, you get up early, you have fruit at home, maybe, and, uh, maybe a piece of toast, but the coffee has to be out.

So you run into the coffee shop, and you stand sometimes by a counter, and you put the coffee to what we call bicas, which is, uh, it's not an italiana, but it's like a small coffee. Anyways, so you do that. 

Paula: I'm just gonna see if I can pronounce that. Bicas? 

Maria: Yeah. B I C A S. So 

Paula: that's basically asking for a cup of coffee?

A cup 

Maria: of coffee, and it's a small cup of coffee, like what you call here an italiana or an espresso. Yeah. It's not as strong as an espresso, but it's really coffee. 

So, you have a coffee, you run into the car or in the public transportation. Lisbon has fantastic public transportation. And you go to your office, um, you have lunch with your friends. Uh, this idea of three hour lunch is fantastic. It's all kind of romanticized by the media. You have usually 45 or an hour for lunch, but people have lunch.

Even if it's a small lunch, um, sometimes you take it into the office, but that idea of sandwich and salad is, doesn't go with us. We have a proper, what you call a Mediterranean, diet. You know, you have proper food, not very big. We have tiny little plates for lunch. Some people have a glass of wine.

Some, most of them, no. They will have juice, orange juice. Then they run into the office. They, they start usually at nine. Some companies start early because of the heat in the summer. And they finish at five, but a lot of people, if they have to go to the dentist or this or that, they take hours in the middle, but they will stay in the office until late.

Paula: So no siesta. I always thought they had a siesta in there. Is that more Spain? Well, I don't know 

Maria: about the Spanish. Have siestas now. I had siestas until I was six. But, um, no, I don't see people in siestas when they work. Now, if you don't work, what do you do? What we do is like, after lunch, we usually, like me, you know, .

Like if I'm on the beach, first people don't stand on the beach after 11. You know, if you are on the beach, you are under the parasol. You are there, you know, and then you go and have lunch to a small little restaurant on the beach. And then if you come back, you read in. You will see, if you walk in the Portuguese, you will know who are Portuguese.

They have books, they have magazines, they have newspapers. We are readers. So, they will read, they'll have the siesta, but they are underneath a parasol. And then, after four o'clock, everybody kind of comes out and goes swimming, or goes walking, goes running, surfing. 


Paula: Maria, I know you as a very talented artist, businesswoman, amazing home chef and hostess.

You represent Portuguese women as strong, talented go getters. Growing up, were the women in your family big role models? And who taught you to cook?

Maria: , actually, who taught me to cook was Maria de Lourdes Modesto. The writer of the cooking books that Say that again slowly, Maria Maria de Lourdes, like Lourdes, the French Our Lady of Lourdes.

Uh, Modesto, which is the family name. 

Paula: Maria and I just figured out right before we started this podcast, Maria was telling me how There's very few cookbooks that really represent true Portuguese cooking. She said, this is one of them. And I was so proud because it was the one Portuguese cookbook that I have.

And it was so interesting to hear that this is the woman who wrote the book. So tell us that story. Well, I 

Maria: attended San Jose, which is a Dominican convent. And, uh, Maria do Lourdes Muderte had just started as a cooking chef. And she was invited by our, our, principal to give, uh, weekly cooking classes.

So, uh, weekly, So, we had, I had cooking classes for three years, and the cooking class was one entree, one main dish, one dessert, and then we would eat it. So that's what we did that in the convent kitchen, and I have all these recipes or most of them of the book, written by hand. Uh, when I was, uh, 13.

13, 14, 15. And, uh, later on, I was already in Canada in 83, and a cousin of mine said, Guess what? I'm sending you a parcel. And there was Maria de Luz Modesto with a beautiful book. We didn't cook every recipe in the book, but we did the recipes that were important. Besides that, my mother had a cook and we had maids at home and I always loved to be in the kitchen.

That's where all the gossip was. And you heard all the very interesting conversations that were not allowed in the living room. And I saw them because my mother, you know, trained them. And Nanny was kind of the housekeeper, and she trained the girl, the cook, and I saw how they did the bechamel sauce, the frying, the stews, you know, little things.

I wasn't involved, but it's funny how later on, when I came to Canada, and I didn't have a maid, And I had to go and buy the stuff, and actually clean it, and chop it, and whatever. how much I learned from observing since I was three, I remember. 

Paula: When you were in the kitchen, it was probably full of all these wonderful feelings and positivity.

Yeah, 

your passion and, , talent and love of art, was that something that you had in you at a young age? I 

Maria: always had it. I was, I believe I was five and I used to, when I was in the kitchen, I used to pick up paper and with the red sauce and the pimento sauce and the, the, the mousse, the spinach mousse and so on, I would paint, you know, green, red and so on, until my mother said, okay, we're going to give you a watercolor box and so on.

But my father always thought that was just, you know, a fad. So, his brother, who lived in Africa, came, and I was seven, I believe, and he saw what I had drawn and painted, and he told my father, this girl needs Proper instruction. And he went to the art store and bought me a easel, a mini easel. And that box, which I all have, all of it.

And oil, a little oil tubes and oil. There was no acrylics, only watercolors. And he really instigate me. And, um, and I did a couple of pictures for him before he went back to Africa. And he had them framed and But my parents never followed that. They always thought it was something that it was like a hobby.

It wasn't until I was an adult that I decided to do that for myself. 


Paula: I don't know if you know this, but mom and I went through the Alentejo region. I know I was in England.

Yeah, but it was on your recommendation when she came to visit me in Cascais and I loved it. And one of the things I loved about it is. So this is in the 90s. I'd also been to the Azores Islands, which is a whole separate podcast episode we could do. Crazy trip. Back then, you know, I look back. I'm quite impressed about myself because nobody went to the Azores Islands then.

It was very traditional and rural, but to me the Alentejo region was also not as back in time as the Azores Islands, but it felt very traditional and tourists didn't seem to be going there then. Is it like that now? Is it? No. 

Maria: They have a lot of, um, bed and breakfast, or, , places where you can go and, you know, stay. And people start, it's our Texas, really, Alentejo. It's our Texas, the biggest province in Portugal. It's the coldest in the winter, and the hottest in the country.

It's quite flat, , rolling hills in some areas, , lots of cereal and cork and, , and lots of, cattle, horses. The people are, , very, they have been very isolated. It was isolated. People love To be by themselves. They love their own company. , but tourism maybe had helped, uh, , to enrich some of the areas that, um, uh, they have been more stagnated.

I hope it's not going to be ruined, because, my love, besides my children, is Alentejo. My mother was from Alentejo, my father, my, her father, is from a very old, old, old family from Alentejo. So, Alentejo, for me, has a very special place. I spend, uh, teenager, um, Holidays in Vilanova Milfonte, which is by the Atlantic, and the continental Alentejo is beautiful, you know?

You have, within an hour and a half, you go from one country to another. different food, different taste, and and even the architecture, it can be different. It goes from stone to whitewash with colored 

Paula: bands, you know. I remember because I was living in Cascais and going from there to the Alentejo region, it was , extremely different and in such a good way.

What about the cuisine? , what are some of the typical dishes of that region? Well, 

Maria: they have a lot of pork because we have the black pork, which is not in corrals. They are, they pasture in the pasture, you know, free, they eat, uh, um, bulota, uh, which, um, what is that? Sorry. 

Bulota. B O L A T A. Bulota. Bulota. Bulota. Bulota. Which I completely forgot how to say it in English. I'll come to me in a second. . And um, and uh, that's what they eat. They eat that. And they eat all kinds of tubra, which is , wild , The ones they grow underneath the earth and it's like a potato.

It's, mushrooms. So it's a completely meat that people are used to. 

Paula: Do I remember correctly, there's a lot of, um, like clay pot stews? 

Maria: Well, the clay pot is because It was, it's an area where there is a lot of 

working, people.

So that's why the clay, because there is a lot of, I'm sure you saw beautiful hand painted, dishes and, because there is clay, it's quite inexpensive. And then the art, the, , it's very territorial, like if you go to Marvão, which is a little village on top of a mountain and is walled in.

And so on one side you look and you see Spain, on the other side you see Portugal. It's like medieval, really. You were in Óbidos, weren't you? Yes. Is that where the This is a mini Óbidos. Right. It's a mini, mini, mini Óbidos. Or Monsaraz, or Marvāo. So those are all small villages, or small, very tiny towns.

Remember, this area was very Moorish. The Moorish, , conquered the Hispanic Peninsula. I think, I don't want to be erroneous, but, uh, around 700 A. D. And they lived there until the The Portuguese and the Spanish, uh, ran them to the North Africa. So, ran them out. And Portugal, uh, kept a lot of what was existing.

You know, some were burned or whatever, they kept the same windy roads and windy, and the color, and the flat roofs. There's a lot of flat roofs. Born in Algarve, perhaps, to dry foods. Figs, almonds, and so on. 

Paula: You sent me that photo of the figs, and there is the black figs and the green figs.

Were those, were those green figs, unripened, or was that a different variety? No, 

Maria: no, they are ripe. It's just a different variety. And then there is the figs from the cactus. And those are delicious too, the cactus figs. The huge cacti have figs, the same size as the other ones.

And they are fantastic. 

Paula: Hmm. 

Maria: They use the cacti as well, the flower of the cactus, to curdle the milk and the cheese. And that was the cheese that, this year won the number one in the world. In the, in the festival, um, 

Paula: World's 

Maria: Best Cheese Award, 2024, and won the sheep cheese.

240 judges, and, they showed 2, 400 cheeses from 47 countries. And this cheese won, Number one, it was, the taste, the richness, the texture, and , the, the aroma, and with the natural fat. Because these sheep graze. in totally organic fields. 

But there is hundreds of cheese, very much like that. And, uh, it will be very similar. You don't have to have that one, you know.

Paula: So cheese, which I was not aware of, was, so well done in Portugal. And rice. Let's talk about rice, because oftentimes we don't, say, put rice and, Portugal together. I did, and then I lived there for a few months. Yeah, 

Maria: um, I think we are number four in EU, in Europe, uh, the producers of rice. , we are a very small country and it's, , border three Rivers, river, Sado Tejo and River Minoh

It's around, um, 28,000 acres of area where Rice is grown and, they grow a lot of rices, but two of the major ones. are the carolino and the agulha. Carolino is more used to sweet rice and so on. It's a rice that splits and opens and gets quite fat. For sweet rice you said? Yeah. Like desserts? Yeah.

Okay. Which is called arroz doce. Arroz is rice and doce is sweet. Arroz doce. 

And agulha, it's a bit like, I don't want to say basmati, but it's, you know, agulha is a needle. So you can see, visualize, a very long grain. 

Paula: Jumping from Alentejo back to Lisbon, so the cuisine in Alentejo, pork, the different, root vegetables, what about in Lisbon?

What would, what would one expect there? In Lisbon, 

Maria: really, because it's such an international, we have been such an international city, you know, since old, all the time, but, uh, going back Quite recently, you know, last World War, 1930. 1939, uh, uh, we, Portugal was neutral in the last world war. 

Neutral. We, we didn't fight in the last world war. So being neutral and, , ourselves and Sweden, we were the center of spionage. Really. And we armored every king and queen that was expelled. Greece, Romania, everywhere. Spain. Everybody came and lived in Cascais and Estoril. So we became very international in the sense that people, which were highly educated or very, you know, sophisticated, suddenly got into Lisbon. So Lisbon, you know, Brought everything the best from Porto, from North, from Central, from Alentejo, from Algarve, into Lisbon.

Because people came to open restaurants, to have coffee shops, or, you know. And so we had a range of highly sophisticated to everyday food. Family food. 

Paula: Would Lisbon be more, um, seafood oriented? 

Maria: No, not at all. It's a mixture. You have best chicken, you have pork, you have beef, , you have oven stuff, grill fish, , seafood.

It is a really Lisbon, it is a miniature of all our country. You can find that. 

Paula: I understand there's big lineups in Belém for the Pastéis de Nata. There's the sardine shop. Like, are they really that good? Or like, where do you go for those?

Okay, 

Maria: The Pastéis de Nata I only like the ones in Belem. 

Paula: And before we go further, can you just tell our listeners what that is? 

Maria: It's a kind of a custard, , and there is thousands of places in Portugal you can have egg tart or custard tart, whatever you call it.

But nowadays they, excuse my word, prostitute is the recipe, you know. You have custards with lemon, custards with It's unbelievable what they do. And we are starting, we Portuguese, are starting to try to preserve our genuine cuisine. Because people are coming and transforming and telling tale stories to tourists that you kind of, I open my mouth, I can't talk.

Paula: So just to clarify, People outside of Portugal are purchasing and owning these bakeries and then creating stories about why there's lemon on a pastéis de nata? 

Maria: Yeah, or they create things they know, for example, American like, or create things that they know that Swedes or English like. 

Paula: Some would call it targeted branding, targeted marketing.

Maria: Yeah, exactly. And it's like, and then they call it Portuguese and then they put centuries with it. And it's so bad that we kind of, we Portuguese, we just look at each other in a coffee shop or something and we just shrug our shoulders and we go out. And then we kind of look at the people and they say, Oh, well, you know, the tourists buy it.

They like it. And we just live in awe. 

Paula: Why is Belem so, why do they produce such wonderful Pestais de Nata? Well, they 

Maria: always did. That was a convent. , it has been, uh, Always a place where, you know, I remember to go there three years old or something. In the last, nine years, it took, , the children of the children of the, that bought the, the convent, , kitchen and so on, and the place, you know, they are there to make money.

So they bought. Uh, the building next to it and they enlarge it and enlarge it and now it's like a football field, kind of. The quality is still the same. But it's kind of a order serving. They have queues and so on. We Portuguese know how to get in sideways and have our nice and we are treated always very nice by the the old people that always work there and they can see the difference, you know.

Or you buy a package of six so and you take it to the beautiful park in front and you enjoy it. 

Paula: Lovely. So are you a powdered sugar person with your pasteis da nata, or no powdered sugar? 

Maria: No, well, the powdered sugar, actually, it's an invention. It was cinnamon. Cinnamon. Oh, was it? Yeah. The powdered sugar came later because my father was born in the same area.

And he was born in 1923. And my grandfather came to Belém in, uh, 1935. 1904. And, uh, so, uh, they don't remember the white sugar. The white sugar came maybe in the 50s or 60s. I don't know. But cinnamon is the one you should put. We use a lot of cinnamon in our food, which nowadays it's getting very In, but we always use cinnamon and because it's very coagulatory, like if you have a cut 

Paula: and 

Maria: you drop cinnamon powder it coagulates, it stops the bleeding.

You know, it's not, an artery, of course. So it's a very good, good, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Powder. Essence. To us. To humans. 

Paula: I talk like I knew that about cinnamon. I didn't know it's a good coagulator. Yeah. That's good to know. 

Maria: If you have a bleeding nose. 

You just put a little bit of cotton wool in water, warm water, and put cinnamon and stuck it in there. And it really helps to do that. 

Paula: I'm hearing more and more about the sovereignty of food. and Portugal in the same sentence and this movement and intention to preserve the traditional dishes.

Maria: It's gonna be a battle because now it's out of hand. 

Paula: I know Lisbon, , you know, you look at all the fun cooking shows and it's these really neat things happening in Lisbon and restaurants and fusion and all that, but you know, I'm, I can see speaking to you and to others. That's not necessarily what everybody wants. Is it because you're losing 

Maria: the tradition?

What happens is not what is really traditional. It's always full and always survive. Because they have been there since I remember, you know. The other ones come and go. I see. Others go because they serve, I don't know, the typical Portuguese sandwich, which is a steak and then they put Italian sauce and God knows what, and they call it Portuguese.

I have two kids and they're both like Portuguese food. But, the new generation, it's open to try other things. And our diet is so healthy. You know, like now they are discovering all this kale. We laugh about the kale. You know, the kale momentum.

The kale has been always staple food. From the poor to the rich because you can have kale, cabbage in any garden, and you can just do the kale. But don't eat the kale raw because the kale raw is really good for cows, and you don't have two stomachs like they do, and they really can ruin your intestines.

You know, it should be cooked. . You know? But, a lot of chefs would say, they will contradict me, but believe me, it's true. 

And it's the people who grow it and cook it.

And you know, Portugal is a thousand years old. So they know something, the past. We cannot erase the past because it's modern now. You know? something else. There is always some truth why they pick a nerve, why they put that if you have a tummy ache, why there is always scientifically you go back and there's the reason why.

Paula: Food, culture, how can we not talk about port and wine when speaking of Portugal and food and culture?

Maria: I would like to, you know, wines in Portugal are, we only produce 0. 3 percent wine. of the world's production. We are a very small country, you know. I think it's around 24, 000 hectares of vineyards all over Portugal, if you divide it, right? So we cannot produce mass production. 

But what happens, I think, is what we produce is very good. Because, and, uh, what we produce that is very bad is what you can buy, for example, in Canada or in the States, you know. It's mass production. We call water wine. 

Paula: You export the stuff that's not so good and keep the 

Maria: Because we don't have enough.

You know, the good vineyards, the good wineries, they have their wine sold three years in advance to the best restaurants in Switzerland, in London, in Paris, in Lisbon, you know, in Madrid. They are sold because they have a limited number of bottles. But, in Portugal, you can go in a Lentejo And, uh, in the tiniest village you can find and go in the little It's not a restaurant.

It's the place where you buy boots, nails, you know, stuff for the cows. And the owner cooks and serves lunches or dinners. And usually there is one or two dishes and that's it. They have beautiful wine, because that's the wine they have, a little one hectare or something, and they produce this wine.

And house wines in Portugal are usually very safe, if you go into the in country. 

Paula: A friend who's a sommelier here, in, Canada. She was saying that the, in terms of pairing, you'll never go wrong if you pair any wine with the food that comes from the same terroir.

Yeah, 

Maria: exactly. So it's always local wine. It goes with the local food because the vegetables are there. You know, we don't use too many sauces. Our Portuguese cuisine is fresh. You know, the salads are fresh. And that book that I brought about vegetables is fantastic for someone who is vegetarian or pescatorian.

Paula: This is a cookbook, um, a vegetarian cookbook by the same author that we were just talking about, who wrote the traditional Portuguese cookbook. So I'll put both those in the show notes. I remember when I was in Portugal, again, I was young and I didn't have any money.

Uh, so I would drink Vinoh Verde and it cold, crisp, and I thought it was great. And it would be like 7 a bottle. I'm sure the wine has evolved since then. You 

Maria: still can buy in Continent, which is the biggest, supermarkets. And you still can buy a good wine for four euros. Four euros? Two euros and a half.

750 ml. 

Paula: Wow. 

Maria: Five euros is a very good wine. You, you know, if you know where to look. But of course, you know, you have, Vinho Verde and, uh, Casal Ribeiro, which is, I shouldn't say it, you know, 

Paula: I didn't have money for good wine, but I did not miss out on the port. So I just learned today that I was drinking my white port incorrectly at the wrong temperature.

So talk to us about port in Portugal. 

Maria: I personally only like white port. I always have the red port, uh, or the tawny port because I cook with it. You know, I use a lot of wine in my food because that's what I saw in the house and it's funny people say, Oh, you know, this is wine. The children cannot have it.

You know, hello? All the alcohol in the wine, if you cook it, disappears. It's just for body, 

Paula: right? 

Maria: Anyways, um, I like the white wine served very crisp, very cold. And it should be always, before the meal. 

Paula: So you serve it a par, you serve it cold, and then a parve. You go have the meal, come back and then have the Tawny port.

Maria: If you want a tawny port, if you are a lover of that, you know, it's lovely, but tawny port is room temperature, never cold. 

Paula: I remember when mom came, we would have the white port before we went out, then we'd come back and have the tawny port, but I had it at room temperature as well. It should be served 

Maria: cold.

Paula: And let's talk about cork, because you may not produce much wine, but Portugal sure produces a lot of cork. Yes, we have, we have, 

Maria: and again, easy in alentejo. 

Paula: You 

Maria: know, 

Paula: Is that where the fires were a few years ago? Uh, central Park. Okay. Yeah. Central Park. Uh, I believed in 2023, we sold $1.3 billion.

Maria: In the park. Uh, and since 2023 because Cork Tree sometimes. They start dying with no reason. There were planted 300, 000 and they want to, plant 1. 5 million by 2029. Cork trees. I don't know if you know, but cork trees, uh, they can be, the tree in itself can be harvested in sections. That's how my family always did it.

Paula: You say the tree itself can be split 

Maria: up? It's harvested in sections because the cork is kind of a bark. I'm sure if you go to Alentejo, you'll have a show of that. So you divide, if it's a big tree, you can divide it in two. So you, the bottom part, you take it, and seven years later, you take, , you can take it again, but then three years, you take the top.

So you always had, uh, financial, uh, every four years, cash flow, uh, taking the cork from, not from the old tree, but dividing the tree in sections. 

Paula: Oh, I did not 

Maria: know that. Yeah. . I don't know if they do it now because my family, uh, you know, doesn't have any cork trees anymore, but, that's how it used to be.

Paula: People may not be aware of this, and I wasn't until you, sent me, the information. Lisbon was recently awarded Europe's Best Culinary City destination. Yeah. 

Maria: No, not a restaurant. Just in general food. 

Paula: In general food. Yeah. Not this fusion food.

I know I, I, it's funny because I, I love, I don't mind a fusion. I like fusion, but I completely understand that you need to, and I really believe when you go traveling, you need to Understand and know the traditional dishes, because that opens the doors into the people and the culture. But yeah, so they were awarded Europe's Best Culinary City, which, so it wasn't Paris, it's not, you know.

Oh, and 

Maria: there was Paris, there was London, there was Madrid, there was, , Switzerland. San Sebastian, I would think, 

Paula: and Spain. Yeah. 

Maria: Yes, there were all of those cities. I was, you know, I was very proud, but, um, I didn't know. 

There is an interesting, if you go there in September, it, you're not gonna get it because this is in November.

There is a conventual, like from the conference, week of, show, an event, and then you have every sweet from. All the convents from north to south. 

Paula: Every sweet Like dessert. From all the dessert? From all the convents. 

Maria: Convents, yeah. Oh. And, uh, in Kusa, which is I You went to the monastery. Inba. Yes.

The one who had the river who goes underneath. 

Paula: , I remember. And we were, at that time, we were maybe one of, there was maybe two other people there. Yeah. Looking at it. 

Maria: It was built, , it was start to build in, 12th century. But, uh, yeah. And in there they, uh. Because they have the space. It's so immense.

And they do an event, and it's in November. 

Paula: What about some other food festivals that would be worth Oh, there is tons. Right. 

Maria: Tumar, for example, Tumar, it was, , two years ago. It's every four years, and it's the paper. They cover the city with paper flowers.

And every street, and every, I'll send you pictures. It's absolutely stunning. And what does it represent? What is the purpose? It's religious, of course, but then it comes all the different, , farms, and, uh, they come and show the horses. And the chariots, and the workers, and what they produce, the cows, and the bulls, and then each little county, like for example, if it would be Vancouver, right?

It would be Shaughnessy, you know, and, uh, Yaletown, and, , every will bring something different. The girls all dress and make big tall things, where they put bread. And they stack bread and flowers and and each one represents each bakery of each area. Oh, interesting. It's interesting. 

Paula: Yeah. Then you 

Maria: have the Viana do Castelo.

Paula: Which is another really it's all based in religious. Mm hmm, but Everybody is very proud of it. You know, it's very interesting. There is one in Avish in Alentej which they covered the streets in flowers They do it at night and then in the morning it's all Arreolos, which has the carpets. , and they do, like, the designs of the carpets. They do. Marta has one. That green one in the living room is is around a hundred years old, from Arreolos. And then they do the same designs on the streets, but So, I'll tell you, if you're going to festivals, you would never leave Portugal. 

Bacalhau. So, I remember 18 years ago when my son, first son, was born, Maria came to the hospital, room that day, well, I'm sure it was the next day, with this casserole dish for one, of this delicious, warm food. Bacalhau casserole. So maybe for our listeners, just the talk about, you know, what is BAUBacalhaud, and what, or what its origin is.

Maria: Well, the, the origin is that the Portuguese fishermen, caught, cod and uh, they actually were the big fishermens in Labrador, in St. John's, Newfoundland. Oh. If you read the Canadian, uh, north, you will have them there. And, so they. They cut all this cod, and they slit it open, and the way to preserve it, we're talking about 700s, 800s, it was with salt.

So it opens like a butterfly, and you salt it. So that's where it came, because it's a food that you don't need fridge, there was no fridge, and Portugal is not Labrador, it gets hot. So, and we only salted fish, even the fish that we catch in the coast of Portugal. Uh, there's a lot of that is salted, like in Nazaré.

I don't know if you were in Nazaré. Little 

Paula: fishing village back there. 

Maria: And, um, and now everybody knows because of the 38 foot wave. 

Paula: Maria, not 38, like over a hundred foot wave. 

Maria: 38 meters. There you go. Yeah. So, um, they, you will see. They, they dry. It's not cod, it's other fish. But the same way. They slit it open, looks like a butterfly, and they salt it.

And then it started people cooked in different ways. So 

Paula: is it a staple? Would every household, would you have it a lot living here? Oh yeah. 

Maria: I still, I have it here when I can get it, uh, here in Vancouver. I always have, bacalhau, like we call it, , in the fridge. I bite it, salt it, I de salt it, and then I freeze it so it's ready to cook.

How do you de salt it? You just wash it? No, I just put it in water for probably two days. I change the water. Like, if I put it in the evening, for example, in the morning, I take the water, put another fresh water, and then, uh, midday, I'll change the water, evening, midday. And by the time the second day, if you, I can eat, , cod raw.

It's lovely. So you cut a little bit, and if it's not too salty, if it's the taste you want when you cook, that's it. You just dry it with the paper towels, put it in a plastic bag, and freeze it. 

Paula: Maria, you brought a recipe today with you.

What's the dish that we're going to have on the show notes for everyone to try? 

Maria: The dessert? The dessert. Yeah. It's an orange roulade. It's very much from Alentejo. It's a very, you can eat roulades, orange roulades, in Portugal almost in every bakery, on every coffee shop. This one is the traditional that came from convent.

My grandmother was brought up in a convent too, or attended a convent. We were not brought up, we attended. And in the morning it came in the evening. And they taught us what we know. And it was a very traditional recipe from the convent. And we followed it my grandma was born 1901, so, she will, that recipe came what she was taught, like I was taught.

When you go to a private school convent, you really, live to know, , manners, , diction, uh, walking, how to walk, how to cook. How to go down a stair, how to cross your legs, how to cook, how to be naughty, and all kinds. And so that's the recipe. It's a very simple recipe, it's quite easy.

Sounds complicated. 

Paula: And a roulade is like the rolled, the rolled, just so everybody knows, like the rolled cake type. Yeah, 

Maria: it's baked on a 11 by 13 inches pan, a round, and then once it's done, you just have to have a lot of courage because you put a linen cloth, a little bit wet, with a bit of sugar on it, and you just pick up that and turn it upside down, just like a pie.

And then. It will be unglued completely. You take the paper, take the pen. And then with the linen cloth, you start rolling it like with the play dough and leave it for 10 15 minutes. Don't unroll it because it might open. And that's it. Voila. 

Paula: And I have the recipe. I took a photo of it out of, handwritten out of your, your book.

I love that. So that'll be in the show notes and we'll have to try that. Uh, Maria, when you come back from Portugal, if there was no restrictions on what you could bring back, what would you be putting in your suitcase? Are there food items or No, books. Books, 

Maria: yeah. Because I read and, there is a lot of books here, but, uh, the good Portuguese writers or Spanish writers sometimes are not translated, are not available.

To bring here, there is certain things, like the Uh, Rissóis de Camarão. Do you remember the, the cod little fritas? Oh, I love those. Yes. Okay, I tried, I tried, my grandmother was here twice. My mother tried. We never was able to do it like we do it in Portugal. I think it's the water and the flour, you know.

There is no point. There is a lot of fresh fruit here. The fish we can't bring because the fish from Atlantic has nothing to do with the fish from the Pacific. Because it's very tasty, and the fish from the Pacific is very rich, but it's, you have to salt it, you have to make, bring it to life. Um, so, no, I wouldn't, um, port we can buy here.

Wine. Sometimes I bring a bottle of wine, if it's a reserve, and I know that, you know, I can Do you 

Paula: have a favorite winery from Portugal that you like? Not winery. Well, yeah, I have 

Maria: a lot of favorites because there is a lot of good ones. It's all, what are you eating at the time? You know, the reds are very good with the , our staple pork and beef, we eat a lot of game, you know, rabbit and, , partridge, , ostrich, , after the, the mad cow problem in the 90s.

, there was a lot of ostrich farms in Alentejo and, I learned for the first time to eat ostrich because, uh, they make nice things, 

Paula: you know? Lean, I imagine. Lean. Very 

Maria: lean. so we have a lot of that. The white ones Our seafood and our fish. 

Paula: And this bottle of White Port, the Taylor, Fladgate that you brought, can I get that here in Vancouver?

Did you bring that over from Portugal? I don't 

Maria: know. I brought, I brought this to my husband from Portugal, but I very rarely bring wine. Very rarely. 

Paula: Portugal, from what I remember, is famous for its linens, ceramics, the wooden utensils. Are there specific Cities or regions that you'd go for those? 

Maria: And you have cork, too.

You have cork shoes, cork, pack sacks, cork wallets. Some are very tacky, because that's what the tourist likes, but there is places that you can buy quite plain without logos and, you know, little whatever they put. Those are nice in Alentejo. You have the tapestries, the, the inorbitus, you have the ginjinha.

Remember ginjinha? No. Heart of cherry. the cherry wine that has cherries inside. 

Paula: Yes. 

Maria: Yeah. Yeah. I 

Paula: remember that. And I remember I, I still 

Maria: serve it in little chocolate cups, dark chocolate cups. 

Paula: Yes. I do remember. And I also, I brought back from Alentejo, I think it was that hidden hilltop town where the castle is.

There's an artisan, and you just go into their home, and I brought back beautiful ceramics, like a big platter and a set of plates, hand painted. Yeah, and every region 

Maria: is different. You know, if you go to Sintra, they have a specific. And Mervão, they have another. If you go to Évora, Every town has their specific artistry and designs and colors and I like the ones that are very, very simple.

It's like, uh, a field of poppies and you have a tiny little home with the blue Uh, bar. Yeah. And one tree. That's it. I love that kind of simplicity. 

Paula: And we, have to talk about the tiles. Is that li specific to Lisbon, the beautiful Portuguese style? No, you 

Maria: have them, everywhere as you 'cause the tiles.

came from the Arabs. So, a lot of mosques, they were covered with tiles. So, those tiles sometimes were just used to build a church. You know, you put, you extend The Ali that you make a Catholic church and they use that and then they produce with the artistry and, the romantic, the god, the Rococo designs and import In Lisbon, you can buy a lot of them.

And there is two factories actually in Al uh, right in the core of Lisbon. And then, uh, you will see, uh, churches, convents, train stations, , libraries all covered. Alcobaça has beautiful rooms and rooms with, which were covered with, uh, tiles. Uh, our convent, my convent in Sintra, Ramelhão, , which is still working school, , the, The eating room has the most beautiful 

Paula: collection of tiles.

I love, I love the tiles. I fell in love with the tiles. The blues, 

Maria: the water, and the yellows. 

Paula: That's exactly it, yeah. Actually, those are the, those are the brand colors of In My Kitchen were inspired. The blue, red, yellow. Yeah. Maria, so we've talked about food sovereignty and your passion for food.

Maintaining the traditional dishes and recipes. , we all know that tourism has gone exponentially, huge all through Europe and the world is getting smaller. , what would you say to visitors to Portugal? What can we do to show and really respect the people, the culture, the cuisine, what are some etiquette things or things that we could make a little different?

Maria: Well, uh, if I would be a foreigner, and that's what I do in other countries when I visit. First thing I do, I don't Google the best restaurant. I don't go to the books how to visit the real Lisbon or whatever, you know.

If I know someone genuinely they are from there, I try to ask them, you know? And, uh, it's interesting because it just happened to me a month ago. Someone works, uh, and I know very well.

He came and asked me, well, you know what hotel? In Lisbon I should stay and, which restaurant should I go? And I said, okay, I'll send you a list. , and he said, oh, oh, well, a friend of mine just told me there is a very good book, How to Visit Portugal. So, to tell you the truth at this stage, to tell the people what to do, Just don't follow the herd, you know, uh, if you have someone who knows, uh, sit down, have a coffee and listen to them.

Paula: You know, Maria, and this is why I started this podcast show is because I was trying to find. Podcasts where I could hear the locals speaking about their country and region, so I could learn about the food and the culture, but it was always somebody talking about it, but they weren't from there.

And it was really difficult finding. Shows that have actually like someone like you. So I think, you know, it's such a privilege and for all of us to have this opportunity, , to sit and listen to what you have to bring. 

Maria: I'm not saying that don't look because some of the restaurants that I go, um, a few are in those lists. But most of them, if everybody, every tourist goes there, the people cannot produce the quality after a while. What 

Paula: time do you 

Maria: normally have dinner? Seven thirty, eight o'clock. Right. You know, and at five o'clock we have a cup of tea. And we have maybe, if you like salt stuff, you like, a shrimp frita or pastel bacalhau, the little fritos. And or a beer, if it's summer.

Or a beer. And then, 7. 30, 8 o'clock, you, we don't have glasses of wine, like here. You go to someone and everybody drinks wine, and then maybe half an hour later, we have finger food. 

Paula: So what do you mean you don't have glasses of wine? You'd have just one? 

Maria: We have, no, we have wine, no, you can have three, but you are eating 

Paula: real food.

I understand. You're not just drinking, you have the wine with the food. Yeah. Yeah. How it should be. We don't 

Maria: have happy hours. Well, now we create happy hours because the, the, they want to have an happy hour, but we don't do happy hours, you know? 

Paula: So you said, I was surprised you said dinner at 7. 30, cause I remember 8 o'clock, 

Maria: 7.

30, 8 o'clock, I'm talking about Families that I, you know, uh, now if it's a summer night. . And for example, I have a summer, house, as you know, across from Lisbon, and sunset sometimes is at 9 45 in the summer. You know, you, you leave the beach maybe at 7, 7 30, if it's nice and warm.

So you will have dinner 8 39 o'clock. But we are not like the Spanish. We eat earlier. Yeah. 


Paula: I wish you were on this tour with me. It'd be fantastic. You'd be a great, addition. When is it? End of September. Let's see what we can manage. Wouldn't that be great to have Maria on that? Oh, welcome. Yeah, let's make that happen. 

You're Maria, this has been such a treat and really appreciate you coming on and chatting and especially bringing the cookbooks and , the white port that just took me right back to Portugal. I need to do more, , in person, episodes like this.

Maria: welcome. It's an honor because I'm finally actually speaking about my country openly 

I am 

Paula: honored that you feel like this is a good place to share it. So appreciate it. 

Maria: Thank you very much. 


Paula: I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. For such a small country, there is so much history and diversity in Portugal. I love Portugal. I don't think there's anywhere in the world like it and I can't wait to go back, especially to the Alentejo region. 

If you enjoyed this episode, I would truly appreciate if you could like and review it on Apple Podcasts. It goes a long ways to help me get my show out there to more culinary adventurers like you. Also, to carry on the conversation, you may like to sign up for our newsletter@inmykitchen.ca.

I'm a small show trying to bridge the gap between visitors and the people and places you travel to, hoping to build a better understanding of each other. I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to In My Kitchen with Paula. Thank you. Always a huge thank you for coming out. 


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