In My Kitchen with Paula

Not Your Butter Chicken: Exploring Cultural Heritage with Shiva Reddy

• Paula Mohammed • Episode 39

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What if the immigrant story you’ve heard is only half the truth?

In this heartfelt episode, I sit down with Shiva Reddy—sommelier, food columnist for CBC Vancouver, and host of the acclaimed docuseries Not Your Butter Chicken. We talk about identity, heritage, and the power of food to connect us to our culture and the women who shaped it.

Shiva shares the deeply personal story behind the series, inspired by her mother’s dementia and her own journey to reclaim the flavors and traditions of her Indo-Fijian roots. From hustling samosas as a teen to becoming a celebrated wine expert, Shiva’s story is full of resilience, tenderness, and a lot of flavor.

You’ll hear about:

🍛 The role of sewa and community in South Asian culture
🧵 Why the stories of immigrant women often go untold
🍷 Her unique philosophy on wine

This conversation left me thinking about the women in my own family—the ones who passed down recipes, love, and history through food. I hope it does the same for you.


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SAY HELLO

In My Kitchen creates connections one dish at a time, by exploring culture through food. I do this through unique culinary workshops, speaking engagements, and of course, this podcast.

I'd love to hear from you! Connect with me in one of three ways:

Paula Mohammed:

Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed and welcome to In My Kitchen with Paula. This podcast is a gathering place for culinary adventurers who love to travel. Every week, we'll come together with chefs, cookbook authors, talented home cooks, and everyone in between to talk about their story and their unique dish. Using food as the vehicle, we'll take a ride into the ins and outs of their culture and country. Come on, let's get this party started. In this episode of In My Kitchen with Paula. I am so excited to share with you a chat I had with Shiva reddy. Shiva is amongst many other things, the host of a four-part docuseries called Not Your Butter Chicken. Shiva is a catalyst for me, uh, exploring my heritage on my dad's side, Pakistani side because of this four-part docuseries and the way she approaches it. Fascinating, insightful, but more than anything really peels back the layers of the immigrant story to small towns in British Columbia. And this is Indian immigrants. But she looks at also the story of the women. What the women bring to the table and I think we often overlook that. I do this myself. I always talk about it from when my dad came over, he came with nothing. His father, his grandfather, but my dad came with his mother and his grandmother. And I often don't look at it from their perspective and what that meant and what they sacrificed and what they brought to the table. Same with on my New Zealand side. I often talk about Wharaepapa, the Maori chief who's in our family lineage. But you don't hear me talking about the woman, Elizabeth Reid, whom he married and brought over from England and what that was like for her. After this chat with Shiva, it's really got me thinking about celebrating and honouring women, us, and what we bring to the table. From cooking family dinners to um, carrying on recipes that were passed down to us, we're carrying on the lineage, the stories of our families, and we're nurturing and sharing love with those near and dearest to us. Shiva and I talk about a lot more, but this is what it triggered in my brain and what's front of mind for me right now. Have a listen, enjoy, and uh, definitely try Shiva's recipe. Hi, Shiva. Welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today.

Shiva Reddy:

Hi, thanks for having me!

Paula Mohammed:

I am gonna give just a quick, brief background on who Shiva is. Shiva is a sommelier and the food columnist for CBC Vancouver. She is nominated for a LEO Award for her work as the host for her new series, Not Your Butter Chicken, which streams on CBC Gem and I can't say enough about it. And we're gonna get into chatting more about that because I imagine it was, uh, very rewarding, but also a super intense experience. But before we do, let's like back it up a bit because I've got this curiosity about you and I'm sure my listeners will too. But tell us a little bit about growing up as Shiva Reddy. Who you were, where you grew up, what life was like.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah, so growing up I actually was born and raised here in Vancouver, BC. Um, and to an immigrant family. My parents were both immigrants from Fiji and they were much older, so they were kind of like my grandparents. So for the first few years of my life, I grew up with lots of cousins around me. They were, well, I should say, they were actually my nieces and nephews, but I called them cousins because of the age gap between me and my siblings. Um, and then, yeah, and then I also grew up playing hockey, and around a lot of food. My mom was quite sick when I was growing up after my dad had passed, and so I ended up becoming her caregiver. And then during that time I worked my way up the restaurant world and kind of became obsessed with wine.

Paula Mohammed:

I read a, uh, story somewhere in an article, something about you hustling samosas at a young age. What was that about?

Shiva Reddy:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. So when my dad had passed, my mom unfortunately was a part of a very bad car accident where she was hit from behind and it just essentially destroyed her leg. So she couldn't work anymore. She was a registered nurse before my dad had passed. And then she needed to do something, so she opened up a daycare at home. She went back to school to do that, and it was going very well. And then the accident happened, so she just couldn't work anymore. And I was very young at that time, and so we just didn't have money to get by really. And my mom, incredible cook. And so what she would do is she would make rotis, she'd make curry, but her samosas were iconic. And so I would go around and I would sell them. And by selling them, I would just tell people that I have them. And then word would spread. And so basically all of my teachers would purchase them. All of my friends' parents would purchase them. I'm pretty sure we, like, I went to the high school Lord Byng, I'm pretty sure most kids for lunch ate her Samosas and were raised on them. Uh, and then my hockey team would buy samosas. So I would also be there just helping her roll out all the samosas and make them, and then I would be the one who's like essentially hustling them and selling them to everybody.

Paula Mohammed:

Oh my gosh. You know, totally going off on a tangent, but you went to Lord Byng. My dad immigrated from Pakistan when he was 18 and went to Lord Byng, and I went to Prince of Wales just down the road from Lord, I'm now. I'm a lot older than Shiva. You guys can't see this beautiful young woman in front of me. But, uh, so different, different times. But when we moved here from New Zealand, my parents put us into summer school because the math was different and we had to learn some French. And there was a young girl that sat behind me and she came from an Indian family and she would come to school with these lunches that just smelled so good. And finally I was so shy, but I turned around and I said, "oh, is that such and such curry?" And she was shocked, you know, in the eighties it wasn't cool to be, have the last name Mohammed, or be Indian or Pakistani. And so we connected and she would start bringing extra lunches with samosas and the different curries and biryani from her family. And we would have lunch together over shared curry. I would've been buying your samosas if I had had your number back then.

Shiva Reddy:

Honestly, the funny thing is that there were the samosas that I was hustling, but also my mom knew that my friends, she knew that that they were eating bologna sandwiches, Paula. So she was just like, here, here's a little bit more for your friend Stefana. Please make sure, make sure Jessica eats, eats something. So she was always concerned, so she'd always make so much more for them so that they wouldn't eat a perfect sandwich as well. But yeah, anyways.

Paula Mohammed:

That's so cute. Were you raised with the Indian values and cultures in western...? What was that like for you?

Shiva Reddy:

Oh yeah, yeah. It's really interesting because, because of the generation gap with myself and my mom. She's old enough to be my grandma. She had me at 47 and so yeah. And so I, I found that like, because she wasn't maybe in her thirties when she had me, or twenties when she had me, and wasn't born here, she didn't assimilate in the same way, like she came to a Canada that wasn't perfect, but there was still that idea of multiculturalism. So she was very, very proud of where she came from. Um, and so growing up, you know, we would go to the temple every single week, sometimes every day. We were doing traditional classical dancing for me. I liked playing hockey, so that was her way of making sure that I balanced it out and I was a good Indian girl. But yeah it was very much so a part of our culture and there was no, there was no shame around it. There would be like, for me, growing up playing hockey, being like, "ugh, my hockey gear smells like curry again. Ugh." You know, there was that. I'm like, "my hair smells like curry. Ugh." But then the curry would be so good. But my mom really wanted to make sure that I spoke the language, that I ate the food. She didn't teach me how to cook the food, but she wanted to make sure that I was as ingrained in my culture as possible because she just saw how important it was. Especially with having seen the assimilation when she had first come here, of people just not even wanting to be a part of the culture because they just wanted to fit in. So I, yeah, I feel very lucky about that.

Paula Mohammed:

I read that your, is it true your mom was in the police force in Fiji. So unbelievable. Like, she sounds like such an amazing woman. I, I really wanna know about you Shiva, but I'm also fascinated by your mother since I've been watching this series and what I've read. Yeah.

Shiva Reddy:

Honestly Paula, this is her show. And it's funny because like she will call me and she'll be like, so how my show, where is it? How is it doing? Why didn't I get to go to this talk? Like if I tell her about us talking today, she's going to be upset that she wasn't here. So, uh, it's very much so about her. But yes, she was actually the first female police officer in Fiji. Um, and then she also was one of the first females to run the prison services in Fiji as well. And so just like a lot of, and like a very interesting focus on reconciliation at that time that like wasn't really happening in the prison services. But yeah, she had to leave that all behind despite the fact that she worked so hard to get there. Because she was too old. She was 36 and her parents wanted her to get married, so that's why she came to Canada for an arranged marriage with my dad.

Paula Mohammed:

Gotcha. So did she meet your dad, uh, for the first time in Canada then?

Shiva Reddy:

Absolutely. It was old school where she was just shown photos and he happened to be the most handsome one who looked the youngest as well. Turns out he was the oldest, but she didn't know that until after they were married.

Paula Mohammed:

The hockey piece. That's something I've been curious about too. How did you first fall in love with hockey? And did your mom drive you all over? I know now people gotta drive for hours to get to their kid's tournaments and whatnot.

Shiva Reddy:

Yes. And you know, she did drive hours. So I feel like being a kid of immigrants, uh, naturally, that you want to be as Canadian as possible. And so hockey was the thing. And so we grew up watching so much hockey. My brother played, and then I, I wanted to play too, and my mom had no question around of like, "no, you're a girl, you can't do that". For her, it was like, "oh, you're interested? Yes. Let's, let's get you in there." Um, and then also I wanted to be a goalie because, you know, it looked like fun. Ah, uh, but you know what? Even when we like really had nothing, there was still somehow, some way, this will for her to make sure that I was able to get it. And so, yeah. So she would drive everywhere and because I was, I was pretty good and at the time there were very few female hockey programs. What she did was she would drive me up to North Vancouver, West Vancouver almost every other day so that I could play hockey up there for a good program. And then she'd drive me out to Delta, uh, for goalie school, and then she would drive all the way to California for tournaments. She did not miss a game. She was there for every single one.

Paula Mohammed:

Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Shiva, I, I, I keep saying it, your Indian culture, but there's so many different sects of Indian culture and religions. What do you identify with?

Shiva Reddy:

It's in progress, uh, quite frankly, but my family is originally from South India, which would identify with Hinduism. So I speak Hindi. My family had to go through what was called girmit, where indentured slavery essentially happened. Indentured workers were taken from India, and they didn't know where they were gonna end up. Her family ended up in Fiji. And Fiji's just this incredible place where like, you have so many different cultures coming together, and it's just, everybody from Fiji is so friendly. From there, my parents then migrated here. So we're Indo-Fijian, but like, yeah. And for me it's so, it's so interesting because I'm just, I feel like I've been trying to figure out where I fit in because as a kid, a Canadian kid, born and raised here, you know, I still get the question, where are you from? And it's like, well, I actually grew up here. I'm from here. I'm Canadian. You know, so that, that was the first thing of being like, okay, why are you making me the other all of a sudden? And then there was a conversation around "hey, but we're Fijian, but I've never been to Fiji, but my parents are from Fiji. Am I Fijian?" And then there would be the conversation of in my head as a kid, just being like, if I just streamline it and just tell them that I am born here and my family's originally from India, I don't have to have the whole conversation. And now as I get older. And especially with doing Not Your Butter Chicken and traveling across Canada and meeting so many different South Asians. It's been very cool understanding that. Right, India is so big. Each place is like a different little country in itself. And we're all so different, but we're all kind of the same. And so I'm coming to realize very much so my roots of the Indo-Fijian here in Canada.

Paula Mohammed:

Amazing. I have to tell you watching your series. Actually sparked this, um, bizarre, uh, realization in me where I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm 50% Pakistani. And I said this to my mom last night and she goes, Paula, like, yeah, I have, I mean, what, what are you talking about? But if you, people who've like in my community through In My Kitchen know that I am so enthralled by my New Zealand side of our story, the Maori side, where in actual fact I'm 1/32 Maori. That's about it. But it's a really interesting story there. And your series has actually put me on this journey of wanting to find out more about my heritage. And a lot of our family now is, uh, in Yuba City, Sacramento, and I wanna go down. Unfortunately, my dad passed away in 2010 and you know, he went through the partition, lived in Pakistan till he was 18, and then came here, but never really talked about it. And I wish he embraced his heritage like your mom did. So anyway, thank you because I'm on this exploration about, uh, learning more about Pakistan and our culture and who my dad was at that time. So it's, it's, uh, it's interesting and I'm a bit annoyed at myself for not being interested. But again, in the seventies and eighties as a young girl, you didn't wanna be different. When people ask me where are you from? It sounds like maybe it was the same for you, but it made me a bit upset. I was well, I'm, I'm from Canada, I'm Canadian. No, but where really, like, where are you really from? I was like, I'm Canadian. Then I would throw them off and say, well, New Zealand. You know?

Shiva Reddy:

Absolutely. But I, I so resonate with that. I'm just like wanting to know more about your culture, but just, you know, for the sake of other people, you're trying to simplify it and then you realize that like you are the one who's missing out on it. So I'm excited for you in your journey.

Paula Mohammed:

Yeah. No, it's, it's, uh, tasty. That's for sure. Fijian curries are hot. Spicy. Is that what your mom's curries were like?

Shiva Reddy:

You know, it's so interesting I find because there's that influence of South India as well as Fijian, it's, if anything, just bright and vibrant. With my mom's curries, even though she did not eat meat, she was a vegetarian, she made the most incredible goat curry, chicken curry. But there was always balance. It was always balance between that spice as well. They would be on the spicier side, but still she would make it so that you were able to actually taste the flavors and not just be overtaken by spice.

Paula Mohammed:

It sounds like food played a big role in your upbringing through your mom.

Shiva Reddy:

Absolutely, yeah. I feel like we had the iconic mother daughter clashing as, as you grow especially with the, especially with the cultural aspect of like, we had the commonality that we are the same culture, but also not. She had her Indo-Fijian culture. Me, Canadian, also Indian, Fijian. But there was this like disconnect there where we were just, we're trying to figure it out and I feel like I, we just weren't in the same space. So there was always tension there, but, but Paula, she was such an incredible cook that when we would fight, I would very quickly in my head, like measure out and negotiate with myself to be like, "is this really worth it? Because I'm not gonna be able to eat the roti after this." I may as well stick it out. I'm gonna be mad, but I am gonna have to get over it because I kind of, it's not worth it. I kind of wanna have the dal, I wanna have the roti.

Paula Mohammed:

Isn't that true? How food, food can bring people back together from enemies to just a nothing said, just here's the dish.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah, absolutely.

Paula Mohammed:

Tell me about Not Your Butter Chicken. You've probably been asked this a hundred times, but I gotta ask you how you came up with the title and what was the catalyst to create this docuseries?

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah. So with the name Not Your Butter Chicken, it was so important because I feel like people, when they would meet me, they'd be like, okay, where are you from? Hmm. And then they'd go into the conversation of, oh my god, your butter chicken must be so good. And it's like, ugh, we don't make butter chicken. We just go out and eat some, but we are more than butter chicken. And so it kind of fueled from that of being like, guys, come on. Also, butter chicken's made not for us. Uh, it's made by us, but not necessarily for us. And so yeah, it kind of sparked that exploration and almost like this, uh, I don't know, a mini fury of being like, guys, open your eyes. We're so much more than this. Let's explore what we have to offer. Uh, so that was kind of the idea behind Not Your Butter Chicken.

Paula Mohammed:

What did you hope to achieve through the series and do you feel like at the other end of it now you, you got to the place you wanted to get to?

Shiva Reddy:

Oh gosh. I feel like I had so many questions and I thought they'd all be answered, but Paula, let me tell you, I just have even more questions at the end of it. Um, but the idea and the reason why it all happened was because my mom has dementia, which is a very big part of the story and kind of why I was set onto it, because I found that I was taking care of my mom, which I've been doing since I was young. But there was this very specific turning point where, you know, she became my kid and I kind of became the mom and our roles reversed, um, at when I was quite young. And I just found that she was in the hospital so much and it would literally break her soul receiving hospital food because she, you know, it, the food should be something that's uplifting. It should be nourishing, it should make you, it should literally make you feel alive. But she would see the food and it would just be like a glob of something and it would taste like nothing. And this is somebody who was an incredible cook. She knew what she was doing and it would just make her cry. And so I realized that the only way to a) keep her alive in many ways, her spirit, her body, everything was to be able to figure out how she made it. Now, the thing is, is that when I was growing up, she always told me to be a good Indian girl, which is always a thing of like, you have to be a good Indian girl. You need to know how to cook, so come on, learn. But Paula, I would find that I would always want to learn. I've been very curious since I was a kid, and she would somehow get me out of the kitchen, have me sitting on the couch with like a cup of chai and it's like, how did this happen? How did you deceive me? I wanna learn. Uh, and I realized that it was a thing where she always wanted me to come back. It was her way of showing her love and by cooking, by feeding me, it was a way to make sure I'd always come home to her. And now it was kind of the same, like the food that she made created a home for me and now I had to do that for her. And so that's how I started to try to learn how to cook for her when she was so sick. And then I realized that like, oh my God, she didn't write anything down. She did everything by like feel, which is unfortunately how I do it now too. But I, through my wine knowledge as a sommelier, I started having to like, like for those who might not know a sommelier, I basically taste wine and I try to figure out where it's from. I also try to find the right wines for people. But the idea, I find it's so grounding, but you basically have a taste and all of a sudden you're traveling through all of your memories, all of the flavors you've experienced, everything, all of the smells, and you're trying to go through and figure out what it is. And so I feel like because of that background, I was able to kind of do the same thing with flavors. And then document obsessively. Um, because her dementia, she wouldn't be quite sure of what the recipes were. They'd always be different. So I'd have recordings, I'd write them down and, and I almost wanna pull out my hair because it never made sense. And then even with her trying to cook as well, it wasn't the same anymore. So that's how it all started of me trying to cook for her. And through that, I realized that that was a tie to my heritage. My mom was my heritage and she was forgetting what our heritage was. And that's kind of what set everything to go.

Paula Mohammed:

And for our listeners who may not know, the Not Your Butter Chicken series goes through four different small towns in BC and looking and chatting with people from India and, and kinda looking at their lives through the lens of food and wine. And yeah, it's fascinating. I hope there's a cookbook that comes out out of all this as well. I don't know, I'm just gonna throw that out there. But with your mom's recipes and the recipe, like watching it, it's just like, I, I didn't know roti. I mean, I grew up learning to make roti from my grandmother, Bibi, and uh, but I had no idea about the significance of roti in the Pakistanian Indian culture. That was so interesting how...

Shiva Reddy:

Absolutely.

Paula Mohammed:

In every culture, bread has such a huge role in the significance of the, of the culture.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah. No, and, and in this one, in Fort McMurray, we met this woman who was a famous star. Uh, she was an iconic model, actress, singer, everything. And she literally, like my mom, left it all behind for a marriage so that she can have kids. And out of everywhere in the world her husband picked, it was Fort McMurray, right? Ah. which, like, it was so cool seeing what she had done. She was so depressed. What she was able to make something of it herself. But what she taught me was that significance of roti, of like, when you're making a roti, it's almost like there's a story of you need to make the perfect roti. It needs to be round, it needs to puff up perfectly, otherwise your mother-in-law won't like you. And so the idea was that you teach your daughter how to make the perfect roti so that your mother-in-law will like you. And then you have that safety of being in a family that will take care of you. Um, and it was almost like a safety thing that's then passed down through the generations. I had no idea. I just thought the roti's supposed to be round. mine. Mine are not round. Mine look like country snails.

Paula Mohammed:

I've, I've resorted to buying them actually, and then just heating them up. I don't, I don't know, it may explain why I'm divorced.

Shiva Reddy:

Nope. Honestly, no, no, no. Not at all. Absolutely not. Nope. Your roti's I'm sure are delicious.

Paula Mohammed:

Watching the series, I couldn't help tying a connection between each episode and a value that that came out. Each one spoke to me in a different way. So episode one, a lot of, I'm gonna pronounce this wrong about sewa?

Shiva Reddy:

Sewa.

Paula Mohammed:

And I wanna come back and ask you about that. And then episode two really spoke to me about resilience. Episode three was curiosity and hope, and then four courage just came out. I was curious if there was an intention of that happening, or is that reflective of the Indian cultural values? Or is this just Paula Mohammed having her own lens, uh, thrown out there and, and...

Shiva Reddy:

I love it. No, there's always a reason. It was just like there's, there was almost too many things and so it was so hard to narrow it down. My producers were incredible. Joanna and, uh, Priyanka Desai. Um, they just did such a great job of trying to figure out what were these common themes that we had with the idea of sewa. It's such an ingrained part of our culture. Sewa is essentially giving back, taking care of each other, no matter who the person is and so when we went to Kamloops, we were able to meet some incredible people. People who had immigrated from India in the sixties, um, and they settled there and they were told that they would have so much opportunity, only to arrive and realize there was nothing. So they literally had to sow the land. Um, they were being paid a $1.60 at the most an hour and being worked so hard in the sawmills. And they were still able to create the first gurdwara, like in their own home. And then that built into a larger gurdwara, which is there right now. And they have this incredible thing called langar, where no matter who you are, no matter where you come from, what you look like, you have the ability to have a seat at the table and you will be fed. And whatever you need, they will make sure as a community that they're taking care of you and that everybody's bringing each other up. Um, and that was just so beautiful. And it was a thing where I didn't know the word sewa, which is so silly growing up, but that's what my mom did. We would go to the temple. We'd have food for everybody and it didn't matter if we had nothing, there was still something we could give. And that was so significant. And so the sewa and then the resilience was interesting because we always hear about how when you come to Canada, it's usually a man's story of he came here and he had $5 in his pocket and he just made it. But we never hear about the silent sacrifices of women. And that's kind of the story of my mom, the story of Shweta, it's so common. Well, we never get to hear about it. And kind of the story goes on and on and like the idea of what will they say? Um, which is the last episode, one of my favorites of, of my mom especially. But of the idea of why are we doing it for them? We have to do it for us. We build this for us. Yeah.

Paula Mohammed:

Can you just tell our listeners what is a gurdwara? What is a gurdwara, for who don't know?

Shiva Reddy:

Absolutely. So a gurdwara is a Sikh temple, essentially a place of worship. Uh, and langar is essentially run by, we call them the langar ladies. They would, they come in around like 5:00 AM, 4:00 AM in the morning, and they just cook meals for the community. They do it for free. Everything is donated and they just, they just show up and they do it, and then they serve it to their community as well. And it's just so beautiful.

Paula Mohammed:

Wow. How did you find, or how did your producers know where they wanted to go and, and how did they find the people that you ended up meeting and interviewing with?

Shiva Reddy:

Uh, honestly, it was one of those things where sometimes we didn't know where it would go. Uh, sometimes, you know, there'd be stories of like Fort Mac for example, of me sharing my own stories. These were things that my producers did not know, but we kind of just had to roll with it. They did a lot of research into the history of the area, the history of the people, um. And went further and further. So they, they really did their work that way. For me, they would kind of just throw me in there. So I sometimes, I would know that we're going to Kamloops. I had no idea who we're gonna meet sometimes. Uh, yeah. And like I could prep it with like, okay, Kelowna farmers, people don't know, but a lot of, most of the farmers, um, and grape growers are actually South Asian. But it's not sexy for people who think oh, my white man has this winery in Napa Valley and this is what it looks like So I was able to like, give some information that way, but Joanna and Priyanka did the work.

Paula Mohammed:

So this was part of an exploration for you as well, and to your heritage. If what did, what stood out the most to you that you learned or were surprised by that you didn't know going in about your culture and heritage?

Shiva Reddy:

I think a huge thing is that you're told to just take it and to just deal with it. And the moment that you step into your power and actually speak about it is the moment that you realize that there are so many other people going through the same thing. And so for me it's always been, I've always felt that isolation because I didn't grow up around that many South, South Asian people at all, actually. Just because where I went to school, where I played hockey. And so I always felt so alone in that journey. And the moment that I started speaking up about it, which is like a faux pas. Like you do not talk about, you do not talk about mental health. You do not talk about any ailment. You don't talk about anything happening with your family. You just stay quiet. You suck it up and you give this image that everything's great. And that's just not how it works. And so my mom would be mortified knowing that I share so much, but it's also what makes me me. And I just found that by doing that, it helped bring so many people together. And being in Kelowna, especially hearing what I was going through, was also what, um, a wine maker, Karnail Singh's daughter was going through. The exact thing of just feeling different, feeling ugly, feeling ugh, not good enough, and realizing that there's so many more people going through the exact same thing. We have to talk about it.

Paula Mohammed:

It is interesting what you say about, and it came up in the docuseries a few times too, to be a good Indian girl, like what you should be like. And a few people spoke about that and I see it in other cultures. I see it in generational thing. I feel it myself. And it's, I feel like it's taken me to be 55 to let go of that. But there's something that I read. I'm gonna get this quote wrong, but along the lines of "don't strive to be good or to do what you should, but just be better, like better for you." So it's not about being good or doing everything the right way, but just be a better person. You know, just let's work towards being that. And that, I thought that was, that kind of lifts some of that pressure off. And also, watching you in the series and even now, you're so open, you're so comfortable in who you are. Watching your mom in that series, I almost felt like it was a bit of a contradiction from the stereotypical Indo-Fijian mom saying, "you know, you have to be quieter. You can't be outspoken." Because your mom seemed to really celebrate and be so proud of you. You said that you did feel that you were supposed to keep a lid on it. Can you just elaborate a little bit more on that? Because what I saw from your mom, and maybe that came later, I'll let you tell us.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah, it was so interesting because with my mom, she was such a groundbreaking person. You know, defied gender roles. You know, she went into law enforcement. That's not what women did. She always spoke up against injustices. That's not what women were supposed to do. And, she just did all of these things. But still, no matter how powerful she was, she still had to abide by the cultural rules. And that made her quiet and just bear with it. Just for us to be able to get by. And it was interesting seeing kind of like that contradiction, that oxymoron of like, even though she was so powerful, she still had to be muted. And I feel like she was doing it, because she wanted to make sure that I would be okay in the world. I understand why she was doing it, but for me, she like, despite the fact that she'd always tell me, "no, don't be loud, be good. You know, present this way. No, you can't do that. You are a girl. No, you have to stay home" and I feel like her dementia has quite frankly softened her a little bit. But I think she just wanted the best for me, and she was proud of me whenever I'd speak out against something wrong. She would always be proud of me when I stood up for myself. And she always wanted me to do that, but she also was just so scared that something would happen to me. Um, yeah, and I just, I feel like now, it's so interesting because I had mentioned earlier with food, that was how she would share her love and show her love. That was her love language. I never heard her say like, she wouldn't, she wouldn't really hug me. She wasn't really affectionate in that way. I feel like I was always in trouble. She never said, "I love you." And then all of a sudden with her dementia, and I think, I honestly think it's because the switch of caregiving, because I became her mom, and that's how I show my love. And I've always been like that, that I started doing those things. And I think she kinda liked it. And I think she's never had that before. And so now she's so loving and she's so kind, and, you know, she's still is just like, "oh, Shiva, come on. Like, your hair looks ridiculous. Uh, don't, don't be like that. Or Oh, really? Your legs don't show those. That's too much." Like, you know, she'll still police me, but it's in the way that like, you know, you kind of get it from aunties and moms, so yeah...

Paula Mohammed:

Yeah. Uh, has your mom watched the series, the docuseries?

Shiva Reddy:

She has...

Paula Mohammed:

What was her reaction?

Shiva Reddy:

Oh, my god Paula. She, you know what, she called me the other day and she was furious with me and I was trying to figure out what was going on. And she was just like, "how dare you, how dare you have a premiere? And this big show and not tell me." And it's like, okay, you were there. You were there. You gotta see it all. We're not having extra things, we're just talking about it. But she's, she's, so, you could just see how excited she is that her story is up there. Just her seeing a picture of her in the prison services. Her seeing a picture of times that were good. Times that were hard. There's something about just being seen when you've had to struggle so much and almost become invisible and feel helpless. There's something about it where it's like, wow, this is really powerful in that you're able to just, your story's out there. So she loves it. She absolutely loves it.

Paula Mohammed:

What a gift that you've given her too. I know this was something for you to explore for your heritage, but for your mom going through dementia, who's losing a grip on who she was, to have it celebrated like that and for her out there and, you know, I just, and for her to see how, after all of the rebelling and wanting to find your own way for her to see you take on this passion to really know your heritage and where she came from and, and all of that. I imagine it was a, an unexpected byproduct of, uh, what a wonderful gift you've given her too.

Shiva Reddy:

It was sweet. I find like, and my producers were really awesome, Paula. Even if there were just moments where we would be having a sweet moment, or it wasn't even a part of the show and wasn't intended to be a part of the show, they would just go ahead and document it, because for them, they've experienced dementia with parents, they've experienced that in the world where they, they just know how important it is to capture that moment and what that loss feels like and the grief of not having it. So they just, they went above and beyond just to make sure that those moments stay with me and stay alive.

Paula Mohammed:

Oh, that's wonderful. Have you been to Fiji or to India?

Shiva Reddy:

I haven't. I would love to go. I feel like that's like the next series, like after, after we, like, after we go across Canada, we get the funding. That'd be great. After we go across Canada and we learn more about South Asian heritage, I feel like that should be like season three.

Paula Mohammed:

Absolutely. Oh yeah. I, I'd be watching it for sure. Okay, so let's jump ahead or back kind of ahead. I'm also dying to know how you became a sommelier?

Shiva Reddy:

Yes.

Paula Mohammed:

Yeah. Tell us about that.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah. And so when like there was the samosa hustling. I feel like I just always loved food so much and just also the idea of sewa, like of always kind of taking care of others through food, through like our way of showing love. Naturally, like the sewa, I found in hospitality. And I like, I loved doing it. I love doing it so much. And then I got to be around food and I got to learn. But then, growing up in a household with no alcohol, all of a sudden I started learning about wine and it was all of the things that I love. I love, I love consuming yummy things. I love trying things. And then you learn about history. You learn about pop culture. You learn about people. You learn about farming. You get to learn everything. And the idea of trying to figure out what somebody likes for wine when they don't know, uh, it's very thrilling. It's very exciting when you nail it. And also like by being yourself is the way to go. And so I found that the exposure to wine was just so exciting. I had to get more, and so I just went down the rabbit hole. I couldn't afford the like university schooling because I was taking care of my mom at the time. But what I could do is I could get scholarships. So I got scholarships from associations like the Les Dames D'Escoffier, and BC Hospitality Foundation and so they basically helped pay for my schooling for wine. And even then I just couldn't get enough and I found that I was, because I was so excited, I was working my way up the wine world here in Vancouver in restaurants, and it just was one of those things I just kept doing it because I love doing it so much and it, it became this, um, as well.

Paula Mohammed:

Coming up in the wine world in Vancouver as a young woman and as a woman from Indo-Fijian Indian descent heritage, did that have an impact on your experience or not?

Shiva Reddy:

Absolutely. I feel like it was very challenging because I simultaneously would be hired because I would check every box of diversity of like, you're young, you're a woman, you're of color. Cool. Okay. So then that would always make me question is that why I'm here? Like, is that what's happening? And then realizing, yeah, that is exactly why I'm here. But then knowing that, hey, I'm actually good at my job too. I'm doing a great job and I know that I'm good at this. So that was huge. But also moving up in the wine world, it just feels like there isn't a spot for me. You know, I, I see the work that I've done. I see that because I had to struggle and because I didn't feel welcomed and I said, hey, whatever. There's space now for the younger generation, but when I was coming up in the wine world, everybody was a white guy. And I just noticed that like, oh, I'm not getting invited to these tastings. Oh, I'm not a part of this. Why not? What's going on? And a lot of it was because I was being told all the time to not rock the boat. I was being told to be quiet and just do my job. And the moment that I would say hey, that was actually inappropriate, that's not okay", was the moment that I was told that I was difficult, um, was the moment that I'd get worked harder and given the worst jobs, but I'd still do it and get through it. But, I found that they just wanted me to be there and to essentially shut up and look pretty and, and just get it done. And I found that when I started speaking up, that's when I felt my power that I could do this. And then I started seeing the changes happen. Now I see that there's space for the younger generations. But I always just felt really alone, like you know?

Paula Mohammed:

What a shame. I find it hard to believe that we still deal with this in 2025, but...

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah.

Paula Mohammed:

I can't imagine you having a lid put on you.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah, no, it's not possible. Don't, it's not gonna work. Don't do it. But yeah, I find it a very interesting conversation because we, when we look at the hospitality industry, we kind of all grew up seeing like the Anthony Bourdain story of ah, yeah, it's hard. This is a tough world." And Gordon Ramsey, where they're kind of glamorizing the being an asshole thing. And customers come in, they always ask like, have you seen The Bear? Is it like that? Is it like that? And it's like, do you want it to be like that? Because that's not okay. Do you want me to be treated like that? Dude, that's not cool. And so I feel like it's kind of both ways where it's like within the industry that happens, but then outside of the industry, people kind of want that. They don't want it. They don't want it, but they do want it. So it's very challenging to kind of change that narrative and change that system too.

Paula Mohammed:

Right. Do you have a philosophy around wine? Like one or two sentences? Is there something that you go by?

Shiva Reddy:

Yes, I want my wine to be made by people who are nice and kind. And I want my wine to be tasty. Because that way I know that they took care of their land. They made the wine in a respectful way. They were respectful to the people who were there to help them. And I think things taste better when that's the case. But also I just wanted to be yummy. I just, that's all I want. It's simple and just down to earth. You know, wine shouldn't be inaccessible. It shouldn't be scary. It's just grape juice at the end, you know.

Paula Mohammed:

So true. A curry, say a meat curry, a little bit spicy: wine or beer or neither?

Shiva Reddy:

You can do anything you want. The world's your oyster. I feel like oftentimes, like especially with curry and uh, anything ethnic let's say when it comes to food, people get scared and they're like, oh no, you have to do something sweet. And it's like, no challenge yourself. Like you could do whatever you want. I think you're having a goat curry. Yum. Traditionally you'd be like a big Syrah or a big Shiraz because it's juicy, jammy and it's like, it doesn't have to be. You know what you can do? You can have like a Cinsault coming from South Africa. It would be tasty. You can really challenge your palette and it's, I don't know, I think sometimes we like get stuck on these pairings where it's like textbook. Like, oh yes, no, it has to be like this.

Paula Mohammed:

It's the should. The should syndrome.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah, the should syndrome kind of sucks because like, what if you don't like it? You know? If you wanna drink chardonnay with a steak, have adder because it's up to you. You're gonna have a great time. So screw the rules that way. Because they're not gonna be necessarily made for you all the time.

Paula Mohammed:

Right. So I often ask guests when they come to the show to share a recipe or a dish with us that we can include in our In My Kitchen community. So it goes out to them. I'm putting you on the spot here, but if you have a dish that you could share the recipe behind the scenes later, what would it be and why?

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah, I think for me it would be the one that I was the most scared of making. And that is my mom's dal. There was something about it that was just pure magic, Paula. Like, it was just so flavorful, nutritious, and just like it would always be a staple in the house. And I've been, I tried for so long to figure out what goes in it. So it's still in progress, but I think I nailed it. But essentially it would be like a Fijian style of dal, which realized recently because I was like, what is missing from here? I've made this now 200 times. I read a million recipes. I keep asking my mom. Turns out the Fijian style would have a mango pit, like fresh mango pit. So like, yeah, it's just like bright, vibrant. You have lentils as your base. What you would then do is you'd have things like curry leaves, bay leaves, onions, eggplant, tomato, garlic, you know, everything yummy and delicious is in there with turmeric as well. And then you just let that simmer. And then after it's done, um, there's this thing called chonk, uh, or chunk, depending on how you say it. But essentially, after you're done cooking all of that, you'd add in your tamarind. You'd add in maybe some cilantro, and then from there you would have ghee. You'd cook the ghee with like cumin, some other spices, onions, chili, and then you'd pour that on top and you'd mix that in. And that's where you get this incredible flavor. And I've learned that measurements are hard, because it is just like a feeling thing. Like I feel like I could never use a pressure cooker, because for me it's a feeling of like, I look at it, I'm smelling it, and it's oh, that doesn't look right. And so it might say two tablespoons, but sometimes it might actually be six. And I didn't get it when my mom would say that of just eh, I don't know. It's one tablespoon. And then I'd see her adding in more later and it's oh, it's all feeling. So, yeah, so you just have to be present with it, which is wild.

Paula Mohammed:

I love that though. I think that's, that's the way to do it. We'll include that recipe in our In My Kitchen community. So if people are interested, the link for that will be in there. And I know I wanna keep following along on your journey and for listeners who want to also follow you and watch, Not Your Butter Chicken, what are the best ways to do that and I'll include this in the show notes as well.

Shiva Reddy:

Absolutely. To follow me, it would be Instagram for me. I, I only can do the one. I can only do one social media. Everything else is too overwhelming. But yeah, my Instagram handle will be, it's ready. So itsreddy91. Yes, nine one for the year of my birth. Uh, ha ha. And then also you could watch Not Your Butter Chicken. It's now streaming on CBC Gem, uh, which is super exciting. And then also you can find it, if you have Telus as well as it's a Telus Original Series.

Paula Mohammed:

Got it. And congratulations again on your LEO nomination. And there was a few for the series that got nominated.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah, we're very lucky. Yeah, so the LEO Awards. We're gonna find out in a few weeks if we get it, we're, we actually have a couple nominations on there, and then we were able to be a part of many different, um, film festival circuits as well, which was incredible.

Paula Mohammed:

It's a wonderful docuseries, so I can see why it's getting the accolades. Shiva, what is next for Shiva Reddy?

Shiva Reddy:

I really never know. I kind of just go with it and then things just happen. But honestly, I love food. I love wine. I love talking about it and learning. So my dream is to have more like Not Your Butter Chicken. I love the idea of having a show where I get to just be curious and explore, like my CBC job is my dream job. So if I can make that more of just being curious and, and learning more about food, about people, sharing that, that's all I wanna do.

Paula Mohammed:

Well, you're amazing at it, and I can completely understand why you wanna do that. It's a privilege, isn't it? To get, get to know people and understand and, and I've, I feel very lucky to have been able to sort of pull back that kitchen door a bit and to Shiva Reddy today. It's been just lovely. You're such a joy to connect with. I wish we were in person sharing dal.

Shiva Reddy:

Yeah. Come on over to my kitchen, Paula.

Paula Mohammed:

Thank you so much for being on the show, Shiva.

Shiva Reddy:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Paula Mohammed:

If you've just finished listening to this podcast episode, go over to CBC Gem or on Telus and watch the Not Your Butter Chicken docuseries with Shiva Reddy. Really great production and wonderful people that Shiva meets along the way. I had so much fun doing this episode with Shiva. Definitely try Shiva's recipe. You can find it at exploreinmykitchen.com which is our In My Kitchen community. If you enjoyed this episode or learned something new, please like and review it on Apple Podcasts. And until next time, happy cooking and happy travels.

People on this episode

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Paula Mohammed

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