In My Kitchen with Paula

Made in Taiwan: A Culinary Legacy with Ivy Chen

• Paula Mohammed • Episode 40

Share episode

What if preserving a recipe was the key to preserving a culture?

In this heartfelt and flavor-packed episode, I sit down with Ivy Chen—longtime cooking instructor, co-author of Made in Taiwan, and the force behind Ivy’s Kitchen in Taipei.

You’ll hear about:

🍚 Why sticky rice dishes like oil rice are central to Taiwanese celebrations
🏮 The cultural rituals that surround food—from ancestor offerings to baby blessings
🎥 What it was like filming with Phil Rosenthal for Somebody Feed Phil

Whether you’re a curious home cook or someone tracing your roots through food, Ivy’s stories will leave you hungry for more—especially a ticket to Taiwan.


HELPFUL LINKS

👩‍🍳 Sign up for a class with Ivy at Ivy’s Kitchen
📖 Order Made in Taiwan by Clarissa Wei and Ivy Chen
🍚 Get Ivy’s oil rice recipe at exploreinmykitchen.com
📺 Watch Ivy on Somebody Feed Phil - Season 7, Episode 7 on Netflix

SUBSCRIBE, RATE & REVIEW

If you love this podcast and want to give me your support, please leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This goes a long way in helping me get in front of other culinary adventurers like you.

Just open up the Apple Podcasts app and go to “In My Kitchen with Paula”. Or, in this episode, click on the 3 dots in the right corner and click on “Go To Show”. At the bottom of the show page, you can rate and review.

SAY HELLO

In My Kitchen creates connections one dish at a time, by exploring culture through food. I do this through unique culinary workshops, speaking engagements, and of course, this podcast.

I'd love to hear from you! Connect with me in one of three ways:

Paula Mohammed: Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed and welcome to In My Kitchen with Paula. This podcast is a gathering place for culinary adventurers who love to travel. Every week, we'll come together with chefs, cookbook authors, talented home cooks, and everyone in between to talk about their story and their unique dish. Using food as the vehicle, we'll take a ride into the ins and outs of their culture and country. Come on, let's get this party started.

Welcome back to In My Kitchen with Paula. This was such a fun and delicious episode with Ivy Chen. In this episode, I sit down with Taiwanese cooking instructor, Ivy Chen, co-author of the cookbook Made in Taiwan. Ivy shares her culinary journey from childhood memories of cooking with her grandmother in Tainan to teaching Taiwanese cuisine at Ivy's Kitchen in Taipei for over 20 years.

We explore the rich cultural tapestry of Taiwanese food. Ivy emphasizes the importance of preserving tradition, traditional recipes and rituals before they're lost to time. Ivy talks about popular dishes from her cooking school that she taught guests pre-COVID, and how that changed dramatically post-COVID. 

We discussed her fun experience filming with Phil Rosenthal of Feed Phil and the significance of rice and Taiwanese cuisine. Tune in for a heartfelt and humorous conversation that celebrates the vibrant and diverse flavours of Taiwan. 

Welcome to the show, Ivy. I'm so excited to have you here today.

Ivy Chen: Thank you. I'm happy to meet you here too.

Paula Mohammed: For our listeners, I first heard of Ivy Chen when I did a, a podcast with, um, Pete, uh, who's from Taiwan, and he introduced me to Ivy's cookbook, Made in Taiwan. Cooking has been Ivy Chen's passion since childhood, preparing daily meals and festival food with her family. Ivy says she's been lucky enough to live now in a neighborhood of an international community and share Taiwanese food with the community after she trained in culinary school.

So Ivy has been a Taiwanese cooking instructor for over 20 years at Ivy's Kitchen in Taipei, Taiwan. And as I mentioned, Ivy is the co-author of the cookbook Made in Taiwan: Recipes and Stories from the Island Nation. Made in Taiwan was written with Clarissa Wei, whose voice is the narrative of the book.

I wanted to share a quote from Clarissa that is in the cookbook just to emphasize how lucky we are to have Ivy with us on the show today.

" There were numerous times when faced with a particularly difficult set of instruction. I impatiently wanted to delete an ingredient or a couple of steps, but Ivy resisted, believing that if we diluted the progression of a dish, we would lose out on the story. And the whole point of this book is to tell the story of Taiwan as best we can before it is too late."

I think that resonates so well with me and encompasses so much of who you are, Ivy. Let's jump right in. And actually, Ivy, I wanted to ask you that last sentence and the whole point of this book is to tell the story of Taiwan as best we can before it is too late.

What is it that you meant by that?

Ivy Chen: Uh, first all, uh, because I have been teaching Chinese food and Taiwanese food for over 20 years now. 26 now. And, uh, during the past years, from my experience I have been asked many times that many people come to me is because they come to Taiwan to look for their childhood memory and the flavor from their grandmom, grandparents. And that me think that this is also in the beginning when I start teaching, I feel that, oh, it's somehow a little bit late for me to ask because my grandmom passed away when I just got married a couple years later. And her, her cooking in my memory is so strong and, uh, delicious and a tough woman like her raised four kids in that time, that even though you can imagine 80 years ago. That's no, no resource and no support from the family. And four kids are so young and she has to do a lot of chores to help people and make money.

So my memory when any day I stayed with my parents. It's all about food and playing in the very old house, u-shaped courtyard. So that's the reason that I, I think before it's too late. And you know what happened during we write this book? Before our book published, we lost two people in about this book in the story. We need to record story from Taiwan.

Paula Mohammed: I love that perspective, and I'm seeing more and more of that from people who are interested in learning their grandparents' recipes. There seems to be an insurgence of, well, of course, with the way the world is now too. People are wanting to hold on and learn and pass on those traditional recipes.

I would love to hear and learn more about your upbringing. Can you tell us a little bit, Ivy, where you grew up, what your childhood was like?

Ivy Chen: Okay. I was born and grew up in the south of Taiwan. Tainan City, the old capital. It's been over 400 years history since the Dutch colonized Taiwan for 36 years. So growing up in the historical city, I have seen so many things going on there and including many ritual for everyday life. That's a very important part in my life. Uh, in general, to be honest, Taiwanese life is very religious. Everything we celebrate, everything we eat is mostly about gods and religion. Yeah.

Paula Mohammed: And can you tell us a little bit what your childhood kitchen looked like?

Ivy Chen: Okay. Uh, first. In very young age, we don't have gas, of course, and we burn coal at home, um, for cooking. And my dad and two other uncles live in a u-shaped, very traditional Taiwanese house. U-shaped house. So everyone brother share one side. And we are on the west wing. We call west wing because, uh, the east wing from sunrise, it's more important for the elder son. So my, my dad is the third son. He, he share only the west wing and the second uncle is in the middle. But actually in, right in the middle of the u-shaped is the shrine room. So our family has a shrine room just right in the middle. It's very big, much bigger than our dining room and living room, just for a shrine table for our ancestors.

And I saw my grandmom always go pray there. Um, just say something to our ancestor when she feel some Christian or need some luck. So she will go there. And for every festival in a year like the started from New Year's celebration, we will prepare food all together with uncle and auntie.

And sometimes it's not enough cooking at home individually. We bring our cooking gear in the courtyard and prepare food together. So from New Year, then we have celebration for Lantern Festival and then, uh, Tomb Sweeping Festival and then Dragon Boat Festival to the midyear of the ghost month. And then so many to the mid Autumn Festival. We have more than 10 festivals to celebrate in year.

So the big deal when everyone cook together, sometimes you need help. So the neighbor will come. And we share too. So neighbor come help. We share food with them. So this is what happened in my, my childhood.

Paula Mohammed: It sounds lovely. It sounds like you would never get lonely.

Ivy Chen: Yeah, I know, I know. And food, the ritual celebration and food bring people together. What, what the best joy like that.

Paula Mohammed: I wanted to go back to that time when you were living with your extended families. What would the day-to-day meals look like? Walk us through your day as a 10-year-old Ivy.

Ivy Chen: Our daily meal. I actually woke up very early with my mom, like, uh, maybe five o'clock every morning when my mom prepare breakfast and lunchbox for a week going to school. And I sometimes I just stay in the kitchen with her. Just feel happy. And as a elder girl in the family, of course, I feel that's kind of responsibility to help my mom to do some chores.

So when she wake up, I wake up. And then stay in the kitchen, help her. My mom prepare, uh, breakfast. Normally we have rice congee with some couple of pickle and side dish. Very simple. And then prepare our lunchbox. So my parents both, uh, were educated in Japanese school, so they both speak Japanese. And then what the lunch boxes they prepared for us is also very Japanese style. Even it's a Chinese rice, Chinese meal, but they were put into a box and a wrap it with a cloth, a square cloth tie up on the top. Many Japanese still do that these days, and that's our daily life. And my family like seafood more than the other food. So my dad, uh, always like my mom to buy like a fish, oyster, particularly oyster and crab. He believed that's Viagra, so, oyster and crab always ha always show on our dining table.

And that's a very strong memory I ate. And, another fish, particularly famous in Tainan, is milk fish. It's always, always on our dining table, either pan fry or in the soup or cook with oyster together. That's very common.

Paula Mohammed: Is that how your meals would look today or has it changed quite a bit now, how you, what you cook and how you eat?

Ivy Chen: Uh, well, my meal that I cook for my family now still focus on seafood.

Paula Mohammed: Hmm.

Ivy Chen: But different types because Taipei has different sea catch. But still it's eat more the seafood than meat.

Paula Mohammed: And where you grew up, was that in the countryside?

Ivy Chen: Yeah, it's actually countryside about 30 minutes away from the city center now.

Paula Mohammed: How did growing up in the rural part of Taiwan, how did that shape your relationship around food and cooking?

Ivy Chen: Alright. Yeah, because I told you it is all, everything about the celebration, right? So, and another reason, uh, food is so important to every Taiwanese now, even nowadays, is we have a lot of temple. Uh, Thao temple, not just Buddhist, uh, and Dao Temple. There's one just in three minutes walking away from my home. Uh, earth God, earth god temple, and it's quite, quite important for the neighborhood.

So this is also why their religion is important to Taiwanese people. We believe that God help us. We all actually believe every family has Gods living with them. Protect them for the whole year life and protect the kids, and we have like a bed gods. Uh, so you can sleep well. We have kitchen gods, so you cook well and it wants you to behave well, not make quarrel in the kitchen and prepare only good food for family. So we have so many gods and then we prepare food for them too.

Paula Mohammed: I understand. I read somewhere that you watched your grandmother cater a lot of these religious meals and celebratory meals. Did she do this for other neighbors as well? Would she get called on to, to cook special meals for people?

Ivy Chen: No, no, not actually. Only people very familiar. Very, uh, good relationship, she do that. So very occasionally, just make up a little bit family, uh, finances. Yeah, she try to make more money and, but I think food is also kind of her patient and the, my, the grandmom is actually my mom's mom. My mother's side, my dad's mom is like a queen. She's like a queen. She never cook.

Paula Mohammed: So who did the cooking in her household?

Ivy Chen: Oh, well, the, the, the son, all the son and the daughter-in-law. Uh, my, both of my grandfather passed away very early and my, my grandfather on my father's side owned a rice noodle vermicelli factory. Used to be, so that's a great memory for me. Food in my, my part of our family life. But when I was born, the factory already gone. Actually, when my dad was 13 years old, uh, my grandfather lost his factory. He's not a good businessman, so he lost his factory, and then the family become not so wealthy. But before that, because he owns a factory, my grandmom doesn't need to cook. So he never cook. And he think, uh, because as a, a wife of a boss, a big boss, he need to have good food. He deserve to have good food. So I always say she just lived like a queen. The other grandmom from my mother's side, uh, lost her husband in her young age and has to raise four kids. So she made, uh, she, she do a lot of chores, made, uh, uh, do a lot of job. Different type of job to, to make money.

Paula Mohammed: Right. She was tough. Did the two women know each other?

Ivy Chen: Yes, yes, of course. Yeah. And when my, my parents married, they, they, they know each other.

Paula Mohammed: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna go back to your cookbook title. I was born in 1970, so many of my listeners, uh, will, this will resonate with them. But the title of your cookbook, Made in Taiwan, really hit home because as kids growing up, so many of our toys, it would be on the back, made in Taiwan, made in Taiwan. I mean, that was the seventies and eighties, wasn't it?

Ivy Chen: True, true. The golden age of Taiwan.

Paula Mohammed: Yeah. Yeah. Is that what the title was based on?

Ivy Chen: I think first is we produce so many products and famous in the world. Uh, it's nothing edible in that time, but now we are going to make it famous. Food also made in Taiwan is deserved a page to celebrate and to give people memory the, the, the good food in Taiwan.

Paula Mohammed: Yes, and I'm gonna come back to this, but I watched Ivy on Feed Phil last night and that episode has me wanting to book a ticket to Taiwan and to meet up with you and do your cooking classes as well. But we're gonna come back to that. Taiwan is often perceived and described as a place of many identities from indigenous Chinese, Japanese, Hakka and more. How do you see that diversity reflected in Taiwanese cuisine?

Ivy Chen: I'm lucky I'm old enough to tell this because my parents both, very strong Japanese influence. So their language, their behavior, the way they teach us, educated us, or the way they cook, my mom cook is very Japanese. And mixed with Taiwanese, like, uh, miso soup is very common in our family. And some pickle, like a Japanese pickle, my mom make it. And then, uh, when they have secret, they speak English and they speak Japanese in front of the kids. and my dad also like never cook. He asked my mom to cook in when I was young, uh, not many restaurant in Taiwan. I mean, good restaurant, especially countryside, is normally for businessmen. My dad is a a salesman. He has business lunch in the restaurant and he's actually, uh, a good gourmet because when he grew up in a young age, he still have very good food. Uh, the, his family is still very rich, so he has good palette. When he try new food, good food, he will bring that idea home and ask my mom to copy that to duplicate and make the food for him. So we were lucky to try all kinds of different food in our childhood.

That's one type that of my food influence from childhood. I think it is mostly a Japanese and Taiwan inferance, but I did not know that. Because to like identify what kind of food is, it's actually when I grew up, after I married, actually after I teach, I start teaching food and people are keep asking food question and then I start thinking what's the difference? Is that really matters? Or for me, anything we eat is Taiwanese food.

I didn't know that has some Japanese influence or Chinese influence. I just know they are different. I like to prepare different food for my family, but when my guests start asking question, I start thinking that I need to identify that.

Paula Mohammed: Right.

Ivy Chen: And yeah, even from my language, I mix Japanese and Taiwanese and Mandarin in my life too.

Paula Mohammed: Could you name one or two dishes that you think really tell the Taiwan story ? If you had to pick one or two dishes that if I came to Taiwan, you must have this dish.

Ivy Chen: Okay so first, Taiwan is located in the tropical and subtropical. We grow a lot of rice, so I want people to understand rice. Although it's not very common in the Western world. People still eat a lot of noodle things and all, uh, wheat flour food. But in Taiwan, actually the staple food is rice. So we make rice to the optimal, uh, variety , as many as possible as we can.

Like we have rice vermecelli, rice cooking in different way. . At least three different type of rice. And, uh, so I want people to know more about rice, and I'm a rice person more than noodle.

Paula Mohammed: Your family had the vermicelli factory.

Ivy Chen: Yes, yes. I think that's maybe the beginning influence, like, , subconsciously. I just like noodle, rice noodle, rice vermicelli, probably like that. Even the factory not belong to my family anymore, it still exists in my childhood and it just next to our house. I still play there and my mom and my dad just keep that's our factory. And when we play there with the other family's kids, the, the next owner's kids, we play together and that's our factory.

Paula Mohammed: Oh, that's sweet. I like that. That's great. You're still teaching now, and are students that come to Taiwan and go to Ivy's Kitchen for a cooking class, are they still mostly people looking to learn the recipes of their heritage? Or is it more tourists now from different parts of the world?

Ivy Chen: Okay, actually people visit Taiwan, they, uh, they don't have too much idea about authentic Taiwanese food or the, the influences that you mentioned from Japan, from indigenous, from Hakka. They actually don't know that much. Even they are Taiwanese American or like they are Taiwanese British. They come home, they still don't know that much. They grew up in, in another country.

So most of the visitors to Taiwan, all they know is from social media, from the other media. That's, that's, what they understand. That's famous night market food, that's famous noodle soup and the dumpling famous. And actually in the first year, first 10 years when I started teaching food, most people ask for Chinese food. They think Taiwan eat like China. We eat the same food. So of course they want to learn Chinese food because that's their image. Their understanding the food from here is like the food from they are from.

Paula Mohammed: Do you find that cooking and, um, identifying Taiwanese food as Taiwanese food, also a way of owning the Taiwanese identity separate from China? I'm seeing that a lot right now. So, for example, , I just did a podcast episode and talking about Pakistani cuisine and how there's a real movement right now for identifying and authentic Pakistani recipes. It's not Indian recipes, it's Pakistani recipes.

For you, is identifying Taiwanese food as Taiwanese food important and teaching people that we're separate from China?

Ivy Chen: Yes, it's actually when I realized that about like, uh, maybe seven, eight years later after I start teaching, I realized, uh, I need to separate it.

In the beginning, I still enjoy the mood that being a teacher and whatever they like and whatever I teach. Okay. Um, but after people start asking question and after I really like why they don't want to ask rice vermecelli.

And, and then why they always ask noodle? Okay, why they want the Kung Pao chicken? Not the chicken soup. So Taiwanese actually don't stir fry chicken. So we cook chicken in soup and that's, uh, normally I cook most of the day. And why they don't, they don't like? Because they don't know. And also because in Taipei, I live here, most restaurant is Chinese style. The culture was boost in the nationalist government time before the, the, uh, democratic party take over the power, the, the culture, the government just boost Chinese culture, Chinese food. So that make me feel that's really important to make people understand the differences from our everyday meal versus that we only eat occasionally in the restaurant that is Chinese food.

Paula Mohammed: And that's a great segue into the dish that you're sharing with our listeners today. What is that dish?

Ivy Chen: Okay, so it's called oil rice. Uh. It's actually not oil, but it's glazed with oil, stir fry, kind of stir fry dish. We cook rice, we steam the sticky rice first and then prepare a couple of ingredients and stir fry with soy sauce and then put them together, mix well, and that's called oil rice. In Chinese we call you fan and it's made of sticky rice with some like pork, shiitake mushroom, some carrots, and then dried shrimp and sometimes like fried shallots, so it's very flavorful. So what is, make it important I want to introduce here is sticky rice grow in China and Taiwan. From the long history, it's always been used for celebration. It's not as popular as the daily eaten rice. So in the daily rice we eat in Taiwan is called Japonica rice now. It's a short grain. A little bit sticky. It changed from Japanese, uh, colonized Taiwan 150 years ago.

Yeah, so the sticky rice is normally prepared for celebration, for festival in our life. So started with a marriage. So normally after married, when the girl going the second day in our culture, the second day of marriage, the daughter need to go home, visit the family as a new bride, and then the family will prepare some sticky rice cooked for her to bring home. Shows like, uh, prosperity and good luck, everything. And also for some festival either for the temple, for wedding, for funeral, we prepare a lot of food to the gods, to our ancestors. And we always prepare because like I told you, the neighbors sometimes will come help. We need to prepare a lot. So neighbors come help and then everyone eat food. So all your rice is always one of the food the family will prepare for everyone, not just for the gods and including rice vermecelli. So this staple food is the very important in our festival, the daily, uh, that people prepare.

So I want to introduce oil rice is not just for this memory because it's so important in my childhood. Another important occasion is we prepare this when people just have a new boy. Okay? So we celebrated the new kids in one month old. And when your baby is one month old, we prepare. It's a joy to share, like, uh, in the early days because when your baby was born and survive over one month, it's worth to celebrate. It's not dying because , no, uh, medical support in that time. So one month's celebration is a big deal.

And for the boy we prepare sticky rice cooked in those very luxury, uh, ingredients with one chicken leg and two egg together in a box as a gift. And that's only for boy. It's very symbolic. Meaning, you know what the chicken leg and two eggs resemble, that for boy?

Paula Mohammed: Yeah. The, the, the penis.

Ivy Chen: Yes. Yes. So for girl, we prepare cake or just rice? No, no egg and no, no chicken leg.

Paula Mohammed: So you would position it so it looks like that um, in, in the box you, you have... that's oh, so interesting. First time I've said penis on the podcast.

Ivy Chen: Oh yeah, yeah. That's this culture, right? We just shopping us on in the box in food. And, , two hot boiled egg, hard boiled with a eggshell. Should be red color. Or pink. Show happy red color. You know, red color for Taiwanese people or Chinese is a joy of life, of happy things. Yeah. So it's red color. It's very common. So like, uh, I'm sure Clarissa have that her boy.

Paula Mohammed: I have two boys who are now much older, 17 and 18, but I'm going to present them a box with this and see...

Ivy Chen: Yeah. Yeah.

Paula Mohammed: ...see what they say. Now are these rituals and traditions carrying on to the younger generations? Is it still practiced?

Ivy Chen: Oh, oh, yes. Yes.

Paula Mohammed: Oh, that's great.

Ivy Chen: 20 years is even more important.

Paula Mohammed: Oh, good.

Ivy Chen: Okay. Like, like you say, uh, in before eighties, sometimes the politic change like, uh, the, the party from nationalist power, national government power to democratic. We realize how much Taiwan heritage we have, but they are just ignored.

Paula Mohammed: Mm-hmm.

Ivy Chen: Okay, before eighties, the Chinese food, the Chinese culture was boost here. We have, like for example, countryside we have Taiwan opera, but it's only happened in the countryside. In the big city it's all Peking opera. So I feel very awkward when I moved to Taipei for college, all the TV just teach you Beijing opera. But when I grew up in the neighborhood, all the celebration, we invited Taiwan opera to play in front of the temple, to play at the house when the house has a big event. We, we did the opera play in the house to celebrate. I never heard about Beijing opera when I lived in the countryside, 

Paula Mohammed: Wow. So quite different than the rural and urban...

Ivy Chen: Oh, yes, yes.

Paula Mohammed: And still like that quite different.

Ivy Chen: Yes, still not as, as much as when I grew up, but still, you can still see the differences. So normally I ask my guests, if you have one day, take a high speed train, go to the south, go to countryside. You see different Taiwan. Taipei is not Taiwan. So most people think that Taipei represent Taiwan. No, it's not. I'm from the South. I tell you. Completely different.

Paula Mohammed: That's great to know as advice for traveling.

Ivy Chen: Yes.

Paula Mohammed: So if I were to ask you how, Taiwanese cuisine has changed since you were young to now, what I'm hearing is, is that Taiwanese cuisine is kind of finding its place now, to stand alone and be celebrated versus when you were younger. Would that be correct? In, in the urban area anyway.

Ivy Chen: Yes. So it's kind of more mixed now.

Even Taiwan is a small country. I have to say, I grew up in the south. When I travel to the center of Taiwan, I find a new food. When I travel to the north, I find a new. I go to the east, I find a different food too. So it's actually very regional in Taiwan because the immigrants move from China, from different part of China, and it still hold the tradition.

Some big influence. If they gather in a, a big area, big community, then they will remain the same. But if they, they already mixed, then you cannot see the difference. So for example, in the center of Taiwan, we still have a, a village, a town called Rukang. There's about 70 to 80% people has the same last name until now.

In the early days, almost a hundred percent, just one family from China. And that's amazing. And, but now it's a mix. Many outsiders move there, do business, make a living. And, uh, they, their people also move out to the other city for working or marriage. So this happened in Taiwan, uh, or indigenous Hakka.

We call us, uh, like uh, Fujian people. In Taiwan, the majority, 80% is people from Fujian Province in Chinese part, and so Fujian people speak now we call Taiwan language. Want to specify that Taiwan language is a mixed new language similar to the region of the counterpart of China, but still something different.

And then the Hakka people also belong to Chinese ethnic, but they speak their own dialect. And indigenous are the people who owned the island in Taiwan. Yeah. Yeah. So it, it's really different.

Paula Mohammed: So how many languages do you speak or understand yourself?

Ivy Chen: Well, actually only Taiwanese and Mandarin. I don't understand Hakka and indigenous. Indigenous has more than 17 tribe. It is impossible.

Paula Mohammed: And what about Japanese from your parents?

Ivy Chen: Only some, some words for, for like daily life that we speak. And I only realize that Japanese words after I growing up . Like for example, screwdriver, a tool screwdriver, the Japanese call driver only call driver and then transfer to Japanese language called and I speak that driver when I was was young and I did not know that Japanese language is, I think that's Taiwanese.

Paula Mohammed: It's interesting how nothing was labeled or separated you just grew up thinking it was all under the same umbrella . It was, it was like that for me too, in, in a different way. , I find now our generation, it's very much about honoring and celebrating differences. I also think sometimes it's nice when we don't label differences as much as well. Do you know what I mean?

Ivy Chen: I know. Actually it's a kind of identity and respect. I will say identity is respect in Taiwan. We want to make them different is sometime remind people where you are from, where you are related and cherish your heritage from your family or from your people uh, for celebration reason, or to tell story for your young kids.

So this is happened in Taiwan in the past 30 years. It's becoming stronger and stronger, not just food, cultural, everything, and language too. So we wanted our kids to remember that history and that's important to our culture. Even they are allowed to eat a hamburger every day, pasta, and then come back for rice congee. That's fine. But then, then is they, you just need to know rice congee or the rice cake. It is just for, for like a daily life or for the gods, you need to remember that. You need to know. And you can enjoy everything and mix of them. So even our speaking language now, very mixed with little, little, indigenous in the words. Or the accent from them and the Hakka as well. For example, the basil, we 80% of Taiwanese Fujian people don't use basil a lot. But Hakka people does. So we put the basil now almost everything, chicken, clam and uh, stir fry, deep fry and popcorn chicken, everything.

Paula Mohammed: When talking about how there it's important to teach the children now in this generation about the traditions and especially around the ritual and religious parts of food, is there one cooking method or a dish or ingredients that you're seeing get forgotten or get lost?

Ivy Chen: Okay. I think the most important food is like for festival. It's because our life still very important to the gods. We do that and our, our ancestors as well. So the offering, I feel that's must carry on to, to show people, to, to learn. But most of the festival food are so complicated because it's for offering and should be like a luxury or complicated or very flavorful, rich, and require a lot of technique.

So that's very difficult to show people. Every kind of food still exists now, but from the early, early time that people prepare, that handmade at home instead of now it's all factory production. So for example, the Zongzi. Zongzi is kind of sticky rice. You wrap in the bamboo leaves, make like a triangle shape. We use for, for, uh, Dragon Boat Festival, but in my hometown also, winter solstice as well for offering. That's so complicated to make. The inside is sticky rice. That's make it important, like I mentioned in the beginning, but. If you ask people to make this, they will say, oh, forget it. I just buy only $40 one piece in, and then I spend my whole day to make 10 pieces. I don't want to do that. Okay. But, I mean something like a simple, at least for New Year dish, people need to, need to learn and make some. Like a chicken dish or a fish dish that's very iconic for our culture.

Paula Mohammed: When I did this, uh, podcast interview with Pete, so he's in his, I would say he's about 30, so I call him young, young Taiwanese, living in Canada. And I asked him to share a recipe and he described his grandmother's. I'm gonna get it mixed up, but I think it was a pork knuckle and daikon soup and he described it was such, such memory. He just loved it.

He said, but I don't have the recipe. He goes, my wife has been trying to make it but the closest recipe I have found is in your cookbook Made in Taiwan, and that's how he introduced me to your book and then he gifted it with me.

It was interesting how he's also trying to remember and find these recipes. So I wanted to let you know that recipe is very similar to his grandmother's.

I wanted to ask you about that process of creating the cookbook. So you would've had these dishes, and I imagine many of them didn't have recipes, and you're trying to honor the tradition of them and how they're made. Was it difficult to create the recipes around the dishes?

Ivy Chen: Well, not for me. Actually, many of the recipe is in my repertoire teaching people. And some of them is like I cook very often for my family or my favorite. Only couple of things is new because this book we create is for basically young generation overseas. And especially because it's published in the States, so for Taiwanese American there. I think that's the, , the basic, uh, beginning idea from Clarissa.

And so I just need to change the recipe weight by ratio. Because the measurement we use here in Taiwan is very different from states. You know, that American use pound and ounce and cups. And in Taiwan of course we use cups, but our cup is 200 ml, American is 240 ml.

And then, the one pound is like, uh, just in the middle we use gin one catty, but our catty is from Dutch time one catty is 600 grams, not like China. Chinese catty is 500 gram. We use 600 gram. So all my measurement is based on 600 gram or 300 gram. It's not 450 and 225. So all the seasoning and measurement change, and I just need to retaste all the flavor. But I didn't create much dishes. Uh, some dishes I create is the noodle, like a, a brown vermicelli. It's a quick flour noodle vermicelli that we make white. And the brown just become popular in recently in the north of Taiwan. It's not exist in my hometown. When I was young, I don't have that. I only have the white one. So the brown one now become more popular, especially tourists. All the young generation from other country going home here, they try that. They actually don't know too much about the white, but they know the brown and that's people want to learn. And Clarissa asked me, just in case, if people cannot buy the brown vermicelli in the States, what to do, can they make by themself from the white one? Yes. So that's the job I create the recipe.

Paula Mohammed: Ah, so I didn't realize, those recipes are all your recipes.

Ivy Chen: Yes, except some that Clarissa interviewed people or she interviewed the chef. And if it's not very precisely, I help to nail down the recipe just like that.

Paula Mohammed: What's the most popular dishes now that people are asking you to teach them at your cooking school?

Ivy Chen: Okay. I will say two stage. Before COVID pandemic and after COVID pandemic. Uh, after COVID pandemic, the top three dishes in my cooking class is beef noodle soup, Xiaolongbao, xiaolongbao is the soup dumpling, and then three-cup chicken. So these three are the top three after COVID pandemic. And you can say that kind of authentic Taiwanese, like a three-cup chicken is only available in Taiwan and one Chinese inspired dishes, beef noodle soup, also very unique from Taiwan and the xiaolongbao dumpling original from China, but we make it famous and make it standard and make it delicious.

Paula Mohammed: That's my son's favorite is the soup dumpling. They're, they're so excited that the famous restaurant has opened up in Vancouver. Now, the one that Phil went to on that episode, I forget the name of it now.

Ivy Chen: Din Tai Fung? 

Paula Mohammed: Yes, yes. So it's five minutes from us now. Um, and what were the most popular dishes before COVID?

Ivy Chen: Before COVID, the top three is Kung Pao chicken, potsticker, and hot and sour soup.

Paula Mohammed: Oh...

Ivy Chen: I know, I know. If you know something about Chinese food, you know that, right? You know what I'm talking about.

Paula Mohammed: I wonder if social media has a lot to do with that, you know, how it changed. TikTok, yeah.

Ivy Chen: Yeah, and xiaolongbao before the COVID it's about number four or number five. It's not the number top three.

Paula Mohammed: I have to ask you about your time with Phil. And so if people don't know the series, it's on Netflix: Feed Phil. Phil was the producer of Everybody Loves Raymond, or creator of Everybody Loves Raymond. I watch all his episodes, but I hadn't watched season seven or season eight yet.

I didn't know that you were on Somebody Feed Phil. So everybody season seven, episode seven, you'll see Ivy taking Phil through the street markets in the... okay. Pronounce the street. Is that in Taipei then?

Ivy Chen: Uh, no. Partially in Taipei, some restaurant and street food, and the places I brought him is not in Taipei. The morning part is in Jiufen, a mountain village now, is used to be a coal mining village. And the afternoon section, I brought him to a night market in Keelung Harbor. It's very north harbor in Taiwan, and that's the night market.

So it's not, yeah. Yeah.

Paula Mohammed: Those markets. It's exactly what I pictured when I saw it on TV. Is that something that's new in modern day or were markets like that for you when you were growing up in the urban areas?

Ivy Chen: Uh, no. It is like a Keelung night market already very popular in the early days, like when I starting university in Taipei. We always hang out. We go hiking in the neighborhood, the north coast, and then we always end up in the night market. Students like night market, it's cheap and it's a lot of fun.

You buy your food, you just walk and eat, right? So Keelung Night Market is great. Very familiar for me. And, the Mountain Village called Jiufen. It's also a good memory for me. When it used to be a coal mining village, but was abandoned in the seventies for about 20 years. So during the time, it's just the time I hang out with my husband, dating there.

So when, when the director decides, can you bring Phil to Jiufen, I was intentionally I was thinking about the neighborhood market to show them. Right? But when the director asked me, can you bring Phil to Jiufen? Hmm. First I think it's very touristy, but then it's a good reason I coming back. I told the director. Yeah, sure. I'm, I'm very happy to, to bring him here.

Paula Mohammed: When you took him and his wife to the romantic tea house, is that in the same area or was that a...

Ivy Chen: Yeah, that's the same area, but it's not...

When I were dating with my husband, when we were dating there. Nothing. It's empty village. We just ride a scooter to the village, to the mountain, and we sit down under a banyan tree and oversee the ocean. That's so beautiful. But we did not walk into the village because it's almost empty and, and nothing to see. So we just stay on the road side in the place. But now it changed.

Paula Mohammed: And how did you enjoy Phil's company? How was that experience?

Ivy Chen: Oh, he's lovely. He is a great host. I actually just follow, I don't need to say anything. There's no prescription. And when we see the sign director and wave the, the hands, then we start walking. We say that, oh, there's a cross. We stop. And when he ask, I answer, so, and we eat. That's all. That's very enjoyable.

And Monica also like to jump in sometimes and when we are not in the camera, we eat, we walk to the side. Just find food for ourself.

Paula Mohammed: Oh, so Monica's Phil's wife. It's such a fun episode and you looked like you were having so much fun. Uh, and it was, yeah, it was very interesting. I really enjoyed it. So I highly recommend people watch that as well.

Ivy, this has been such a pleasure. I really hope one day to come and cook with you in Ivy's Kitchen and meet you in person. For people who want to follow you or visit your website and sign up for a class at Ivy's Kitchen, where's the best way for people to find you?

Ivy Chen: I'm not an active social media person. Yeah. I'm very slow with the high technology. And so I think people use Google search still can find me sometimes. Maybe not on the top list, but they still can find me if they want to take a minute to look for my website. What I'm saying in my website, they can find me.

Paula Mohammed: And I'll make it even easier for them. I have your website, so I'll put it in the show notes and people can just click there and go and visit your website and sign up for a class if you're in Taipei. And also Ivy's recipe for the oil rice will be shared through our In My Kitchen community at exploreinmykitchen.com.

So you can get that recipe there. And maybe Ivy, you and I could do an online demonstration of making it together one day. That could be fun.

Ivy Chen: I would love to, thank you.

Paula Mohammed: That would be great. Ivy, thank you so much for joining us. It's a real, real pleasure and wonderful opportunity to have this chance to chat.

Ivy Chen: Thank you. My pleasure. 

Paula Mohammed: I loved this interview with Ivy Chen. It was so great to get Ivy's perspective and the history from her grandmother's time right through till now. Makes me wanna go to Taiwan and visit the markets and the tea houses and cook with Ivy at Ivy's Kitchen.

In the show notes, will be links to Ivy's Kitchen, her cooking school, and to get the recipe for Ivy's oil rice, and other great resources and recipes.

Join the In My Kitchen community and you can do that by going to exploreinmykitchen.com. Thank you again for coming out and listening, and once again, if you learn something new, if it gave you some new perspective or if you just had a great time listening to the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, when you have a chance.

Thanks again, and as always, happy cooking. Happy travels.


People on this episode

Contributor

Paula Mohammed

Host