In My Kitchen with Paula

Barbara-jo McIntosh on Hospitality, Reinvention and Finding Home in France

• Paula Mohammed

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What if the most meaningful journeys in life aren't about finding a new place, but about creating a place where others feel they belong?

Barbara-jo McIntosh is a cookbook author, culinary entrepreneur, bookseller, and one of Canada's most respected voices in food and hospitality. After building an extraordinary career in Vancouver's culinary world, including founding the beloved Barbara-jo's Books to Cooks, she began a new chapter in rural France, where she now welcomes guests into her beautiful home, La Maison des Mots, in the medieval village of La Charité-sur-Loire.

In this episode, Barbara-jo shares the experiences that shaped her lifelong passion for hospitality, the courage to reinvent herself throughout her career, and why she believes it's never too late to begin again. Together, we also explore French culture, entertaining traditions, and the simple pleasures that make life around the table so meaningful.


In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why hospitality is about making people feel genuinely welcome rather than creating the perfect experience.
  • How Barbara-jo built an extraordinary career by following curiosity, embracing change, and continually reinventing herself.
  • The French traditions around food, entertaining, and everyday living that continue to inspire her life in La Charité-sur-Loire.

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In My Kitchen creates connections one dish, one story, one journey at a time, by exploring culture through food.  We do this through unique culinary workshops, speaking engagements, and of course, this podcast.

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Hi, I'm Paula Mohammed, and welcome to In My Kitchen with Paula. This podcast is a gathering place for culinary adventurers who love to travel. Every week, we'll come together with chefs, cookbook authors, talented home cooks, and everyone in between to talk about their story and their unique dish. Using food as the vehicle, we'll take a ride into the ins and outs of their culture and country. Come on, let's get this party started Once upon a time, there was a little gray book called Cooking For You and Sometimes Me: A Parisian Romance. If you've ever heard my signature talk on connection and travel and exploring culture through food, you've heard me talk about this book. This book is written by Barbara Jo McIntosh. She is a Vancouverite and currently lives in Charité-sur-loire in France. This book has been with me for many years, and I picked it up at Barbara Jo Books to Cooks in Vancouver. Never did I think that one day I'd have a podcast show, be learning and sharing knowledge around exploring culture through food and connection, and doing this recording and having the opportunity to not only interview Barbara Jo, but actually stay with her at her beautiful home in Charite-sur-loire called Les Maison des Mots. I get to share that all with you in this conversation, so without further ado, here we go. I'm really excited about this one

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Welcome to the show, Barbara Jo. I'm so excited to have you here.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, it's lovely to be chatting with you again, Paula

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I know I say I feel like I was just there yesterday, and I, I really was pretty much just there yesterday. I'm excited to introduce you, Barbara-Jo. And, you know, normally I ask my guests to provide a bio, and I dug into your Substacks, which I'm now addicted to reading. They're just so beautifully written and transport me right back to Charité. and I found your first newsletter, and I'm, I'm going to share this as the intro, as I think it really brings together your colorful and storied career and life, uh, very succinctly, and then we're gonna dive into the details later on. So, uh, Barbara-Jo is a Canadian living in Charité-sur-Loire, France, which is two hours south of Paris. Barbara-Jo's life has been dedicated to hospitality in many guises. Albion Fisheries, selling fish and seafood to restaurants. Umberto's Restaurant Group. Catering director of the Mandarin Hotel in Vancouver, which is now long gone, but was the first Mandarin Hotel in the Western world. Fox Macintosh, a special events and catering business. Barbara-Jo's Elegant Home Cooking, her jewel box of a restaurant. And for 20 years, Barbara-Jo's Books to Cooks, her beloved bookshop with a kitchen designed to showcase chefs fr- and authors from far and wide. These talented folk would come to Barbara-Jo's with their newly pol- published books to both introduce the work and share life experience. They were taken special care of, and in return were entertained astonishingly well by the likes of Ferran Adria, Nigella Lawson, Mark Bittman, Anne Willan, Gordon Ramsay, Judy Rogers, Anthony Bourdain, Naomi Duguid, Martin Yan, Donna Hay, Madhur Jaffrey, Michael Pollan. The list goes on. And not a soul who came in, as Barbara-Jo says, is unworthy of a mention, but the experience of welcoming cooks for 20 years could fill a book and should be written, and I really hope it will get written one day. And Vancouver's own culinary treasures, many who honed their teachings and media skills cooking in front of a live crowd in the kitchen of Books to Cooks. These generous souls would cook from their own publications and favorite books written by others. Assembled guests were delighted to witness the joy with which these chefs shared their love for the book, what they had learnt from it while preparing a three and sometimes five-course menu, recipes from the book for all to savor. Barbara-Jo is now living and cooking in France. She finds herself cooking more than she ever has, learning more than she thought was possible at this time in her longish life, and enjoying both the cultural experience of another country and the good company of folks who had ventured to La Charité-sur-Loire to stay with her in her big, old house and garden. And a beautiful old house and garden, I can add. Uh, speaking of life, Barbara-Jo, I can't wait to dig into, uh, all these different elements of your life and how you got started. But first- I'm curious, have you always been interested in cooking and books?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, certainly books. I was always interested in books because as a, a young girl, it became quite clear that I wasn't going to be the athlete that my older sister and brother were. They were right into anything sportive, and, um, they tried to encourage me to do it, but I just didn't have it. You know, we discovered, of course, later that I have, low blood pressure, kind of an introvert. So I, I really wasn't out there to, be competitive in that regard. But I loved sitting in a corner with my books. So yes, I was definitely very much in love with books, but my mother didn't allow me to cook at home. She said, "No, no, you do your homework, you do your music lessons, you read, and I'll make dinner when I get home from work." So when I left home, I didn't know how to cook anything. I soon learned from a, a boyfriend at the time and his mother, who were both very good cooks, and they taught me. And it was just, uh, like magic soon as I started to learn. I just jumped right in

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And where did you grow up? Was that in Vancouver?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Yes. Yeah, I grew up in South Vancouver

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

what kind of cuisine were you learning to cook initially?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, it was just very, home-cooked, Canadian cuisine, I guess if there is such a thing. But mostly his, parents had a beautiful big garden, so it, it was always beautiful fresh vegetables. And, uh, prepared in just many ways. When you have a garden, you start coming up with other ideas, because you might have an awful lot of squash or an awful lot of tomatoes, and you just don't want it the same way every night. So the best way to become a good cook is to have a big garden

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

How did your love affair with the French lifestyle and cuisine start?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, it probably started when I was, when I was still... I was quite young. I hadn't been to France. I had started, cooking, you know, working in the fish business, and going out to a lot of French restaurants. So I think I tried to emulate some French dishes. And the first cookbook my mother bought me was called La Cuisine by a French chef, Raymond Olivier which is also a big, a big tome that has, incredible plethora of French recipes, but also how the French aristocracy lived, how they set their table, and, uh, that sort of thing. And I think my mom thought, "Well, that's all she needs to get by in life." "This will keep her going." And it did, but it did encourage me to want to entertain as well as cook

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

that's something that you do very well. Uh, you, you definitely have a talent, for interior design and obviously you have an appreciation for beauty. You can see that in your, in your cooking, but also in, La Maison d'Emo, which is, which is the beautiful home that you are in right now in France, coming to us from Charité. as I mentioned in, in the intro at the beginning, what drew me to Barbara Jo was I fell in love with, with one of your books, which you reference, endearingly as the little gray book, but it's, Cooking For You and Sometimes Me: A Parisian Romance. when and why did you write that book? I'd love to hear and share that story.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I'd visited France many times for short periods of time, and Paris especially, I was only there for, like, three or four days here and there. And finally I said to myself, "I have got to come to Paris for a month. I must l- feel like I'm living here. You know, rent an apartment where I can cook and go to the market and, just decide what I'm gonna wear every day when I'm going out for coffee. Just have a very sort of luxurious month of living in Paris." So I did find a wonderful apartment on the Île de la Cité, and at the Île de la Cité, and the street it was on is called Quai de Fleur, which is right on the Seine. My apartment didn't look out on the Seine, but it did look out on the steeple of Notre Dame, and that's what I would open my eyes to every morning, was the bells, listening to the bells and looking at the steeple. So it was a very, very romantic feeling. And, uh, a romance ensued. Um, uh, and it also brought back a lot of memories of other, uh, life. And I, I kept a bit of a blog at that time, which I had never done before. and then when I got home after it, I thought, "You know, I think I could make this into a book. I think it might be interesting." and then I decided I w- I kn- you know, knowing the publishing industry and knowing how I wanted to do it, I knew I had to do it myself. And I always thought that would be a very fun project, to self-publish something just the way you want it to. And I made it a really fun project. And, uh, I was very happy with how it all came together.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

It's, uh, my favorite little book sprinkled with recipes. my listeners will know that I'm always seeking out books that are stories that have recipes sprinkled in them. And your, your Cooking For You and Sometimes Me is my favorite, and one of the reasons is the way you write is so beautiful and You feel like you're transported into your world. But also, your recipes, they really work, and they are, they're great, and that's o- oftentimes, recipes don't always work. Even if they're published, they're not, uh, they're not necessarily, the best, but yours really are. So thanks for writing that book.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Thank you

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I've, brought it with me to Paris, now I think three times. I've been very fortunate, since I bought the book to have gone back, and it's also a beautiful, travel book as well. unfortunately, it's not in print anymore, but I have a, I have a idea that I'm going to, uh, chat to you about, Barbara Jo, and see if we can bring it back to life in a different element. But that's for another, another podcast. I really wanna chat more about of each layer of your, life so far. But I have to say, one thing that I've noticed after living with you during the canicule, which is the heat wave that we just experienced in, uh, France, and when I think about why I love your little gray book so much, is that you have such a strength in being confidently vulnerable. I'm not sure if you know what I mean or if that resonates with you or not. But you invite the reader into your personal space, and I've told each person, who I've spoken to about my visit to Charité, and I've only been back I think three days now, but I've been talking about it a lot, but that I was shocked how we were only in your home and in, in the village of Charité-sur-Loire for four days, but it really felt like a month. And I attribute that to you, Barbara Jo, your hospitality, very similar to how you treat your readers. You invited us so generously, not into just your life, but a little piece of your home as well. and it's rare to find, let alone experience that in one's travels. I find, you know, often people are very performative, and it's trying to present something. but you have this confidence and this, um, also this vulnerability at the same time that I think we would all love to to cultivate. And I don't know if you have any insight on this, superpower of yours, but if you have any thoughts or tips on how, how you, how you develop this, I would love to learn a little bit about that. I know some of my listeners would as well.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, it, I, I've never have thought of it as a superpower. I just, I do believe that, you know, very early on in my life I felt it was important to make people happy. And have just worked at that, at situations. At times I will... You know, I think about it. My mother always said, I- she said, "You think too much." And I think that I do think too much, or I feel I think too much at times. But I'm always concerned about anybody who's in my presence, uh, you know, with me in my home or my workplace or in a restaurant or whatever, that they're having a good time or they're feeling comfortable. And I think that's probably, been very worthwhile to have that attribute in hospitality

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Mm-hmm. So that attribute came before you started a career in hospitality?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, definitely. And I believe, I believe it came from, being a small child, um, because my parents divorced when I was three. And I had... My sister and brother are much older. And, you know, so obviously they were going through a very difficult time, more than I could really understand. And my mother was going through a difficult time. But I didn't really remember anything. I just knew that everybody was sad. And I was this little girl and the baby of the family, so babies are always adored a bit. And because I wasn't talking back or asking questions, I just, I, you know, intuitively felt that my role was to make everybody happy. So that's where I believe it came from

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

in your roles, like starting a restaurant, Barbara Jo Books for Cooks, you really took on a leadership role, especially when you had the restaurant, I imagine, in what was a very, male-dominated industry. And I, I think some people could hear what you're saying and think, oh, it's a, the people pleaser syndrome, but it's not, it's not that. It's something different. It's, comes from, a place of strength, and I can only imagine it served you well as a leader. What was the catalyst, if you walk us through these transitions? and let's, let's jump to working in the restaurant business. And then if you don't mind, walk us through the next stage, Barbara Jo Books for Cooks. and I'm curious if, the Barbara Jo Books for Cooks was an idea that had been percolating the whole time underneath this.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

working with the seafood, of course I really enjoyed that. But I also knew it wasn't going to be something that I, a career I could grow with. I knew that if I stayed there I'd be, at the same kind of position, and I was ambitious. And I left there, and then I went to work for the Umberto, and I found it fascinating. And of course at that point, you know, growing up in Vancouver with the, you know, Scottish and English heritage, having this Latin element thrown at me was, was a, it was, so fascinating. but I wasn't a- scared of it. I just sort of thought, "I've gotta figure this out,"

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And sorry, sorry to interrupt, Barbara Jo. Is this the '80s now or are we into the n- is this the '90s?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

No, this would be the, early '80s

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Early '80s, okay.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

when I worked for Umberto. I always chose to, to just look and learn, and just watch everybody, watch their magic. And of course, Umberto had a real magic with people. And, uh, you know, and of course with design especially, too. His restaurants were all beautiful. and I, I really, really appreciated everything he had to offer. Um, but of course, you know, he wasn't that, encouraged to promote women. And, and I didn't worry about that either. I just said, "You know, that's the way it is. Just carry on. Just move along. Move along with your life." you know, then I did my catering, and then I got into the restaurant. And the restaurant, again, I didn't think about it when I had it that I was a, a pioneer woman, one of the few women that had a restaurant at that time in the city. I didn't really think of it that way. I just thought it was something I wanted to do. I'd learnt a lot about it. And you know, when I would be in the past in Paris especially, or France, I would always try these wonderful recipes, and I'd say to myself, "One day I'm gonna have a restaurant, and I'm gonna do something like this." So I just collected recipes that we were able to, um, you know, uh, transform into a, a really nice menu when I had the restaurant.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I was just gonna ask you, what the lifestyle was like back then in the restaurant industry

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, of course, every restaurateur has a different lifestyle depending on size of their restaurant, You know, when it, which means if they have a lot of staff and they're, they're big and they can make a big revenue, then you are allowed a little bit more luxury of time off. But when you have a small restaurant, 34 seats, you're there a lot. So I would work lunch and dinner. But I would close on Sunday, and that was a day of rest. But when I finally, after the lease was up after three years, just over three years, and the landlord wanted a lot more money. And he said, "Oh, you're doing so well." And he had collected all of the wonderful reviews that the local media had written about the restaurant. And he had a file and he said, "Look how well you're doing." I said, "Well, you know, I'm very grateful for all of that, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm making a lot of money." And, um, so I made the choice to, to stop, and it was my, the happiest day of my mother's life to see that her daughter was going to have a little more a different kind of lifestyle. But, of course, I'm an entrepreneur, so I eventually opened the bookshop. And the bookshop was not in my mind at all for, for any of my past years. I mean, I think, you know, every, a lot of people that like books always think a nice little bookshop. But, but the idea of having the cookbook shop with a kitchen in it actually came from a magazine article I read in Saveur Magazine.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Mm-hmm.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

And it was a very small article. One day I was just sitting down with a cup of tea, and I read about this cookbook store in Notting Hill in London that had a kitchen in it. And I just put the magazine down. I said, "That's it. That's my next career." And I, it took a few years to get it all together. You know, finding a location, raising money. sourcing everything. But, uh, I never, ever thought I was doing the wrong thing. I knew that that was going to be, a wonderful experience for myself, and it, and it truly was. I also thought I might be able to grow very old in that shop. I had a image of myself sitting in the corner with, with a cane. And mu- people would walk in and say, "Do you have this book?" And I would be pointing with my cane saying, "Yes, it's over there." But, uh, you know, the way of the world didn't allow me to carry on with that particular dream. So here I am.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And you

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I am in France.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

you had the, the, uh, cookbook store for 20 years, is that right?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

yes

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

So what year did you close the doors on it?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I closed into 2017

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

what is it that you loved most about that, part of your career?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

being in a wonderful position to share knowledge

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Mm.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

knowledge about the things that mean an awful lot to me, which is, you know, feeding yourself well, growing things, supporting local, really being cognizant of where things come from, and have, uh, having all those wonderful authors and chefs come through. It was, uh, it was, it was quite heady. Quite heady and, every day you were learning something new and able to share

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

what is one of your most memorable culinary experiences at Barbara Jo's Books for Cooks?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, boy. Gosh. being that we did about 150 events a year,

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Wow

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

a, that's a tough one. But you know, when Ferran Adria came and we did just a small event in the shop, we had done a big event outside the shop the night before, but we did a little media breakfast. And Ferran came into the store, and I had asked three different chefs, young chefs, to each cook a breakfast from their culture. So we had Wang Dang cook Vietnamese, and we had David Wong cook Chinese, and we had, was it Tojo cook Japanese. So we had this wonderful, array. when Ferran Adria came in and saw, these young chefs and this beautiful, you know, cultural representation, and of course drank a lot of espresso, and I knew that, so we had the machine just popping them out for him. And we'd also made Welsh cakes to go with the espresso, and he'd never had a Welsh cake in his life. it was, uh, and he was so happy. He was so happy, and he did a wonderful presentation for the media. So that was, that was quite a, quite a, quite a moment

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

It's a real testament to you that you had these chefs, I mean, the list is, impressive isn't the right word, but awe-inspiring that came through and did culinary experiences at the bookstore. How do you do that?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Was, again, that was another time.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

嗯

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

You know, at that time, um, you could work very closely with the publishing business. You know, things have changed over the years. Those corporations that sell on the internet have made, it difficult for publishing to support some of the small shops in the same way they used to. There still is things going on, but you, you know, it, it worked for me because I had close relationships with a lot of the publishers, and I was really helping them take care of the chefs and authors when they came to Vancouver

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

did having, the restaurant, did that help with the bookstore in the sense that your name was well-known, especially in Vancouver?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, definitely. You know, definitely, you know, my past in the culinary, you know, with Umberto, with the Mandarin Hotel, going to culinary school and having the restaurant. No, that definitely was very advantageous. You know, people were very curious as to what I was going to do next and I very carefully did not tell anybody what I was going to do next. I kept that bookshop a big secret until the day the paper came off the windows

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Before we move from Vancouver to Charité, can you tell us about, uh, the other, well, the other cookbook that you've written?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, I wrote, uh, my first book, which I wrote at the same time I opened the shop, was called Tin Fish Gourmet: Celebrating Fish in the Tin. And I really, you know, I thought it was kind of a fun idea, but I presented it to a publisher and they just said, "Stop. We'll take it. Don't tell anybody else. We'll take it." And, uh, and I thought, "Oh, well, that was great." So that was really encouraging, and the book did very well. It was, that publisher, Raincoast Books, they stopped publishing books. They're still a big distributor, but, uh, they stopped publishing, so the rights, um, were picked up by another Vancouver publisher, and it was... So it first came out in 1998, and then it was republished by Arsenal Pulp Press in 2014. Then, um, another little book that I, again, it was, I worked with a publisher, but it was, uh, almost like a self-publishing and it was called Great Chefs Cook at Barbara Jo's. And it was, it's still early days, at that time we'd had people like who, you know, Gordon Ramsay and Judy Rogers and, Michelle Roux, and we'd had a number of well-known chefs and I thought, "Oh, no, I've gotta write about this." But, uh, and then I would write a little story about their visit, and then one of the recipes from their book. So that was really fun.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I'm curious, what was, what's Gordon Ramsay like to meet in person?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, it was absolutely hilarious. And, I mean, we all got just such a big kick out of it. Um, he was, he was like you would imagine. By the time he came too, I mean, that was quite a while ago.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Mm-hmm.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Maybe 2003 or so. So he was well-known with chefs. But at that point, he wasn't the big well-known celebrity he is now. but he had, a, you know, a really fun reputation, funny reputation. And then he just lived up to it. But, he was, but he was great. I really, I really enjoyed the experience. And also, he, bought $1,000 worth of cookbooks from me and had them shipped home.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

perfect

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I thought that was really fun

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And I know my listeners will not let me, uh, live it down if I don't ask you about meeting Anthony Bourdain

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Yes. Well, being that today is actually, you know, Anthony Bourdain Day.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Oh, I didn't know that

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Yes, this is the day he died.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Oh my goodness

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

uh, yeah, 2018. It's hard to believe. But, you know, i was feeling today, you know, reading a lot of things about him, and I thought, if we all just said, we're, you know, we all honor him. We say, "Oh, you know, he was so good at this," and, "He was wonderful about this." And I thought, well, why don't we all just be Anthony Bourdain for a day? Think like he does, eat like he does, share like he does. or like he did. And, you know, and then maybe it will become infectious, and we will just all be as good as Anthony Bourdain. You know, and that's another thing I've been thinking a lot about, you know, is, it's not about being nice. It's about being good

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

not unlike

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

always nice, but he was good

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Actions speak louder than words So 2017 Barbara Jo Books for Cooks closes its doors, and next thing you know, another set of doors are opening in Charité Sur Loire. how did that come to be?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, I came over. You know, I had been coming to La Charité for five years. I would rent a holiday home from, some friends, so I knew the town. And so I came over, and, very quickly bought a house th- that I fell in love with the garden that wasn't... It was quite, um, neglected, but I just had a, a feeling that this could be my next, my next life, to renovate a house and to make a garden. So it all happened quickly, and I just carried on, and, went through, uh, an experience, a challenging experience that I could never have imagined, renovating a house. I was very naive to think that I could come here and, you know, after renovating restaurants and, you know, a condo in Vancouver, I, I thought, "Oh, yes, I know how to do this." But I was doing it in my culture, in my town, with a sensibility that was Canadian. And you move to another culture and which you really have no idea about how their thinking process is. It's, uh, it becomes a real challenge to, to get what you want. I did, but I did it. I just carried on, and I lived through it and... and of course, my French was, is still not good, but it was not very good then, but which I look back on it sometimes and I just have no idea how I did it. But, you know, even with the, the artisans who were excellent and wonderful, they didn't speak English either. But we got it done. And then the ones who were horrible, you know, didn't speak English. And, uh, but, you know, we got it done, but not, not necessarily in a, happy, happy manner. But, uh, but it, but it all worked out. It all worked out in the end. That, you know, I, I had, I had more good than, than bad. But, um, when you're in another country, in another culture, it, it was overwhelming. It was overwhelming at times.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I can imagine. I have two questions, but first, how long did that renovation take, from when you started to when you were able to, go, "Okay, it's..." I know you have visions, especially for that beautiful space in the attic. but when you could open the doors and run it as a business, or w- is it, was it one year or more than one

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh no, it was, um, it was a good two years.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Two years

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

and it wasn't quite finished. The first, little set of guests that came, they were, you that I knew and they really wanted to come. They wanted to both support me and see what I was doing. It was comfortable enough to be here, but it, um, it looks quite different now than it did then. and then of course, you know, by October they were gone and I just got back into renovations. And then I, um, we still had renovating to do, but I was accepting reservations for beginning the end of April of 2020 and I was, I was very booked up for May, June, July, August, September, October. And, uh, like again, renovating right up until the middle of April, that was the plan. And then of course, um, happened and, uh, so that all stopped. So

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Right

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I was two years of, just, just being here. Being here, being quiet, and being reflective.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Was that, um, did you ever feel lonely doing the renovation on your own and hitting obstacles and then that time during COVID

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, lonely, no, but I felt alone.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Yeah

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I felt alone in the world in both those, different times. I had some friends here who could offer s- you know, support at times. But you can't, you can never expect anybody to interfere with, if you're having an issue with an artisan, it's, it's you. It's up to you.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Mm-hmm.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Other people won't interfere, and that's okay. You know, I understood that. Especially other artisans. Even if they know that somebody's doing something wrong, they won't interfere. now, I was a, you know, a foreign woman on her own. Might have been different if I was, married to a French man. But, uh

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And can you tell our listeners a little bit about Charité and the area and what drew you to that village?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, when I first started coming here, there were 17 bookshops. Most of them an- yes, most of them antiquarian. It was one of the five villages in France that would have a big, um, book festival every year. So for many, many years, you know, authors from around the world, when they would be coming to Europe on book tours or whatever, La Charité would be one of their stops when, uh, this big festival happened every summer. So again, with the way of the world, that changed it all. Bookstores started closing, mostly because people retired and nobody in their family wanted to take it over, or they were old and died, and again, nobody in the family wanted to do a bookstore. So that was, uh, you know, a change that occurred over my years here. But there still is a festival of words every year, which is very interesting. And we now have, like a secondhand English and French language bookshop, which you visited. Uh, we have another wonderful French antiquarian bookshop, and we have a, a new bookshop which is lovely. And then we have another sort of magazine and bookshop. So it's still there. It's still part of this culture. you know, so, you know, I, I, I go to all of them. I do. I just support them all, one way or another. Even buy a lot of French books that I can't read, but it's okay.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I even bought some, some books at, uh, Roger's bookstore there, and Selena did too, I think. It was really, that was a lovely, lovely experience going into the independent bookstores.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Or a poetry reading in French of Irish poets.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Yeah. I didn't realize it was about Irish poets until the very end when they're serving the, uh, little desserts and they were all green themed, and I thought,

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Yeah.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

on here?" And I was surprised at, uh, I mean, I know I'd read that Charité's, over 1,000 years old or young, but it really felt like, I think I kept saying this too, I felt like I was in a medieval village in a, one of the Grimm's Fairy Tale stories. I just loved it. And, and then we're just 10 minutes away from Sancerre and Pouilly and, and this beautiful wine-tasting region. It's a real gem

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, no, it's, it's perfectly situated in my mind. Like you say, for the wine, the wine regions and for, um, Paris, uh, you know, it's, it's all at hand and you're not far from Lyon or Dijon, other wonderful cities in this area, so

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And fabulous biking, which we were, you know, I, I do enjoy a nice bike ride, but we, we, uh, we

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

It was a bit too warm.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

It was too hot.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Had to adapt

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Selena and I did the Barb- I call it the Barbara Jo experience. I'm not sure what it's actually is called, um, on your website, but we did the Barbara Jo experience, and, uh, that

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Cooking class weekend. The cooking class, yeah

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

What do you call it? The cooking class weekend.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Yes

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Right. So, um, if anyone's interested, you can, for that specific experience, you can find that on the website. it was great. It included, You know, we arrived. We f- we kind of did it all at once. We flew in. We got into our rental car. We drove straight down to Charité, an easy drive. We even managed the tolls no problem. And then that evening, we made, um, something I'd never heard of before, apéro dinatoire. And then another night we did, th- the dîner, and every night we had apéro together. And, we ended up spending so much time sort of living your life, and then we went wine tasting with you to Sancerre and had a lovely lunch and really f- really felt like we were living a local's life in Charité. I really was interested and enjoyed also reading in your Substack the article that talks about apéro, apéro dinatoire, and dîner, and I'm wondering if you could just quickly differentiate what those three are and what they mean.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, aperol is when somebody invites you over for a drink after work usually, or you might, be going out for dinner, or they might be going out for dinner and you say, "Oh," you know, "come over for a drink first." So an aperol is, could be a glass of champagne, a glass of wine, a cocktail. Cocktails are, are more common here now, but they're still... You know, w- when you live in a wine region, you tend to drink wine. and a few little nibbles, and that might be radishes with salt, and, cherry tomatoes, or you know, a few carrot sticks with a little dip. You know, it's very simple. Nuts, olives. Very, very simple, and usually only about three items. and then of course dinner is, is formal, and dinner is when you would have anywhere from three to five courses. And, more, depending on how adventuresome the, the cooks are. But, uh, and that's when you sit at the table. Would often come over, if you were invited for dinner, you would come and have your little aperol snacks with some champagne, and then you'd move to the table. You might arrive around 7:30, 8:00, and you would more than likely leave around midnight or 1:00 in the morning. It's a long night. Lots of conversation, and, uh, lots of good food and good wine. So what has become very popular in the last few years is apero which is a light meal, and generally you, the host, will prepare everything and put it all, all on the table at the same time, and people just help themselves to the different items. it's much more casual. And, like I say, the work is all done before, so the host isn't getting up and down and, you know, you just try and make it where the wine is, is very reachable, and, uh, the water's reachable, and the food's reachable, and, and the conversation just flows. And you would come, would be invited for that any time from s- you know, 7:00 to 7:30, and normally you would leave by 10:30. So it's a shorter evening, much more casual. doesn't mean to say... You know, you, you might drink a lot, you might drink a little. Depends on, it depends if there's Canadians at the table.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

To say we, we certainly, I blame it on the canicule. We fair share of Sancerre. and I believe the, uh, the recipe that you're sharing with us today, is it one of the dishes that we did in the aperodinapero dinotoire so tell us about that dish

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, it's just a, it's a little, uh, recipe that I, I've just made up, really. Like, I got the idea in my head. It was like a quiche, but a crustless quiche. so I call it a flan. and then I do it three different ways. In the summer I do it with courgettes, zucchini, and in the autumn I do it with, um, butternut squash and blue cheese.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Ah, nice

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

in the winter I do it with fennel and potatoes. So it's just, um, whatever you, whatever vegetable you're using, you have to pre-cook it a bit. So you slice the courgettes thin, and you put them on a parchment paper on a baking tray and just get the, all the water out of them and just, nice, soft, not fully cooked, but soft. Then you put a, a buttered casserole. You put all of your courgettes in one layer, maybe it overlapping a bit. And then you crumble a crouton of Chev, goat cheese, over that. And then you chop up lots of fresh herbs, mint especially, parsley, chives. Sprinkle that over. zest of a lemon over that. And then you make a little custard with two eggs and a cup of milk and salt and pepper. Put that over it, grate some Parmesan cheese on it, and put it in the oven. And it's, it's light, it's flavorful, and I, I think it's quite delicious

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

what I love, it's simple ingredients, not difficult to make, not complicated. I think often people would get el- get intimidated by French cooking. but it's light, simple, delicious, and, uh, you feel good eating it. th- thank you for sharing that. And that recipe will be in the, in the show notes,

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

And definitely wonderful with a salad too. You know, I mean, if you have a nice little... in, in France when you say salad, it just means what we would call lettuce. Salad, lettuce is called salad, and that's really all you need is some beautiful cut or, you know, torn apart lettuce with a vinaigrette and some

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Yes

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

and you've got a wonderful meal

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And there's something about the baguettes in France that are so good. And, and I've yet to find something similar here in Vancouver.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

And of course I think we, we talked about the tradition as well, and tradition is the, is usually my favorite to buy when I go to the boulangerie. Every, because every boulangerie has their own recipe, and they have to make it from scratch by law. So where a baguette they can buy a prepared baguette that could be frozen, and bake it off. That, and many, many boulangeries do that, and some of them would have, buy very good quality frozen baguette and others would buy not so good a quality. Again, it becomes, you know, but still some bakeries do make their own baguette. But they have to make tradition

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

So

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I enjoy that. I enjoy trying other people's tradition because I feel, well, I know I'm getting an honestly prepared and, uh, cooked baguette

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And I had never heard that before, so after you told us that, I was... That's what I would ask for and was seeking out the tradition baguette Barbara-Jo, it feels like you have lived a thousand lives. I feel like we could do, we could do a podcast episode on each stage at least. And I feel, too, that there's many books left to be written, and we've, we chatted a little bit about that when we were visiting. I really hope you do write more bo- books, because I think, without trying to be, your books are, the little one that I've read and just meeting you, you and what you present are very inspirational, and are beautiful examples on how to live life, and even more importantly, how to live life for yourself. Uh, which is interesting because you're so, aware of making sure the people in your space are having, an enjoyable time. But you also have really created, a unique and, and, uh, you know, very interesting life for yourself. looking over your different careers, you started major businesses, the restaurant, the bookstore, your events company, now Le you know, one of those would be a major undertaking and, one- you'd be proud to say that was your career for life, just, just one of those. And you've had the courage and resilience to keep sort of going through. And I, what I loved, it's, what you said is, from working in a p- being a pioneer woman in the restaurant business in Vancouver back in the early '90s to working through the renovations at Le Maison des Maux, is there's sort of no fuss, no muss. You just, you just pushed through then and you didn't, you didn't really cater to labels. It wasn't important to you to be known as the pioneer restaurateur woman in Vancouver at the time. You did what you wanted to do and what you knew was right for you. and obviously connection and hospitality has played a role in everything you do. You can see this appreciation for beauty and excellence that you have. why I'm saying all of this is it's just been my impression after visiting, Charité and meeting you and, and having this conversation. I know that many, uh, especially many women, of a certain age, you know, 50 plus, who are now ready to live life again maybe and, uh, have come out of one season of life and moving into another, or just want to get inspiration and, some thoughts on how to do what I think you do best, is you're living life in a very, uh, growth mindset. it feels like You're not living it like, "Oh, well, this might be, my last enterprise," you're living life still growing, and, uh, I think that's really,

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

It's very important to just keep on growing. Keep on growing. But, you know, what I think I might have said to you, too, is, um, you know, when you get to a point where you, i- in your 50s, when you think it's, you know, you'd like to switch things up a bit, it's a very good time to switch things up, in your mid-50s. And I, I say that because of your energy and your physical capacity, it's better, right? There's no, even if you take really good care of yourself, and you exercise, the older you get, a lot, that does start to wane. So it's good to really see what you've, are feeling, you know, feel w- within yourself and what could be the next move, taking into consideration that you are getting older, and that it's, you are going to be able to do this next move while you're old as well. Like, for instance, here, I've had so many people here say, "Oh, why don't you open a restaurant?" I said, "Excuse me, do you have any idea what that entails?" And I think at my age, it would be quite foolhardy to, to take that on, on my own. It would be different if I had children who wanted to help me, or a husband who wanted to help me, but, you know, it just, I've had to laugh and giggle. But, uh, But so that's the thing. You know, you may think, "Yes, I've always wanted to do a restaurant," but don't, don't think of that in your mid-50s.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Right. Right

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Right? Think of all the other things that you've always had on your list, like opening a bookstore in your mid-50s would be very good

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Yeah. Yeah, that'd be fantastic. So I have to ask, Barbara Jo, what's next for you?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, I just, uh, I want to spend more time writing because I do think there's a lot of books in there that I want to write. I keep writing down the ideas of the different books and titles, and some of them I start to explore, and there's, they're in a little file somewhere s- begun, and then I'll go back and say, "Yeah, this is worthwhile." But, um, but I do, um, I look forward to having more time at some point in the, in the not too distant future where I can dedicate, you know, a good part of every day to writing

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I love the fact, too, you mentioned when we were visiting, people come specifically to your home to write and to write books. And, there was one gentleman there, when, um, when we were there who was doing exactly that. I was so sad that I missed meeting Nathaniel. I was so tired. I every night jet lag was pulling at my eyelids, but you and Selena kept, kept the show going. but I've started watching the film. Actually, you know what? Do you think he would mind if I shared the link in the show notes for his film as well?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, not at all.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

It's a very

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

at all,

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

documentary, yeah. Um, but yeah, people seem to come and y- you have created a, a space there that really, lends itself to, to writing and, thinking and being creative and, and exploring in many ways.

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Yes, I just took another booking for another, um, youngish man who is, uh, coming to write his book. He's a poet. So, so yeah, looking forward to meeting him in August. He's coming for two weeks

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I know after listening to this podcast, though, people are going to want to follow along and, with your story and, and see what comes next and what books might arise. What's the best way for people to find you, Barbara Jo?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, of course there's my website, which I do a newsletter, um, not as frequently as I used to, but I did just publish a newsletter the other day on that website. And the books, I was almost going to say books2cooks.com, but no. Maison des mots. And, and then I have a Substack account, which I've just, just probably about three, three months old now, and I've been enjoying that

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

how do people find the Substack account?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I think I, yeah, Substack and I call it Dinner Chez Moi

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Dinner chez moi. I'll put links for these both in the, um,

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Yeah, Dinner chez moi was my, uh, Substack handle. And yeah, and then I do my Instagram too, but not as much as I used to, but it's still... I go in jags. I'll, I'll go for two weeks where I'm posting all the time, and then I get tied up with other things and, don't post for another two weeks.

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

I understand that. are you, do you take in guests year round or is it seasonal?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

I'll, I will take guests all year round if I'm, if I'm available

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

And the best way for people to, book a stay at maison des mots would be through your website?

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

And to e- yeah, my website or, you know, to email me,

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

Okay, I'll add that as well. We'll have that in there. Wonderful. Well, you know, thank you so much again for sharing your story and talking on the podcast, and I don't think it's gonna be our last conversation. We were j- chatting about some ideas before we hit record here. but yeah, I really appreciate, as I said earlier, really appreciated your very generous and, welcoming people into your special place through your book and also through les maison des mots. And, and your Substacks. I just became a m- I just joined and subscribed, and I'm really enjoying reading those. A lot of wonderful in- stories and recipes and descriptions

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Well, all of your, lovely words have, will find me feeling very good for the rest of the night. So thank you. Thank you for wanting to, share my, my life with your Yes

audio_Paula_Recording_separate1

it's been, many years that I've wanted to do this. I didn't have, obviously I didn't have a podcast at the time, but ever since I read your book the first time, I've been, intrigued and curious and, and wanting to chat with you more and, learn your story. So I feel really privileged and grateful that I've had the chance, chance to open this door. And I, I know we'll be chatting more, so thank you

audio_Barbara-jo_Recording_separate2

Oh, thank you, Paula

I certainly enjoyed that conversation, and I hope you did, too. What a treat to get that insight into not only the culture and experience of living in Charité, but also Barbara Jo's life. So many life lessons in there. And if you wanna get my take on what those lessons are, you'll see a link in the show notes to, things I learned about how to create meaning and connection in life and, and have a great time at the same time. Once again, thank you so much for joining me. it always, makes a difference if you can, review and rate the show. I would truly appreciate it. And we hope to have Barbara Jo as a guest in our Culture and Connection Club. If you wanna find out more about that, please just hit the link in the show notes to learn more about our community. Have a great week, and thanks again for joining

Contributor

Paula Mohammed

Host