37. The Tender Space Between Holding On and Letting Go

Summary 

What lives in the tender space between holding on and letting go? In this episode of the How to Find Joy podcast, host June Suepunpuck explores the complex interplay between joy and grief, particularly in the context of motherhood and intrusive thoughts. She shares her personal experiences of navigating intense emotions after the birth of her child, including the challenges of postpartum life and the fear of losing loved ones. 

June emphasizes the importance of acknowledging and embracing both joy and grief, advocating for a 'joy rebellion' where individuals allow themselves to feel joy even amidst difficult circumstances. Through vulnerability and connection, she encourages listeners to confront their own intrusive thoughts and find compassion for themselves in their messy journeys.

Takeaways

Joy can coexist with grief and difficult emotions.
Intrusive thoughts are common, especially postpartum.
Vulnerability allows for deeper connections and healing.
Naming intrusive thoughts can lessen their power.
Finding joy is a rebellious act against grief.
Compassion for oneself is crucial in healing.
Sharing experiences can foster community and support.
It's okay to feel overwhelmed and seek help.
Life is a balance of joy and sorrow.
Embracing the messiness of life is part of being human.

Things Referenced

Read the original Substack post here

Listen to "How to Find Joy Before You Die with Jodi Wellman"

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Chapters

• 3:20 Reading the Substack article + commentary
• 14:04 What was happening behind the scenes

Transcript

June Suepunpuck (00:02.255)
Welcome to the How to Find Joy podcast. If you are currently feeling unhappy, overwhelmed, stuck in a rut, or simply need a boost of hope, you've come to the right place. I'm your host, June Supanpuk, also known as Joy Guy June, and I'm here to give you honest conversations on how to find joy through this messy thing called life. My intention is to share practical tips on how to get back on the path towards joy.

show you examples of what that could look like for you, and help you feel more inspired and connected to your own definition of success, power, and true happiness. If you're ready to learn what's possible, the How to Find Joy podcast is here for you. So let's get this pod started. Woohoo!

June Suepunpuck (00:56.32)
If you've ever felt like life handed you something both beautiful and brutal at the same time, this episode is for you. Maybe you're celebrating a new beginning while quietly grieving an ending. Maybe you've just stepped into parenthood like me or perhaps a new relationship or a dream job. But at the same time, you're letting go of the life or identity you had before.

and maybe someone you love is just thriving while someone else you love is slowly slipping away, or perhaps your joy shows up in your body at the exact same freaking moment as a heavy thought, a fear, or a memory that just collapses you and pulls you under. So that tension of grief and joy arriving together

has been my reality lately and I cannot say that I am finding any pleasure in it. It has been so challenging for me and of course, instead of trying to fix it or tie it up with a bow for you all, I am doing what I promised in the first episode of this season, which is to let you into the messiness of it with me.

So one of the very real things I want to share today was completely unexpected. And it actually didn't happen until after I had my baby. And I debated for a long time whether or not to even share it because first off, I didn't want to upset anyone. And honestly, I was scared that admitting it would somehow make it real. So I left what I wrote sitting in my sub-stack draft for months and

until something happened in my life that made me face that fear behind it just head on. And that was actually the moment that pushed me to share. So what I'm about to read you is a very imperfect talk and more of a glimpse into my diary. And afterwards, I'll tell you what happened that finally got me to hit publish. So here goes.

June Suepunpuck (03:20.442)
Lately I've been doing hard swings between intense temporary bursts of joy and unpredictable unshakable grief. I mean, this is not abnormal for a postpartum mom or at least the moms I know. So in fact, it seems to be the norm. And one moment you're absolutely stricken by the exhaustion, depression and the grief of a life you once knew. And then unexpectedly your little one laughs his first.

hard belly laugh at some random fart noises you're making on his delicious double chin. Yes, this is me doing it. And magically, all of that bad shit just disappears. But of course, like any high, it does not last. And when my dopamine drops, what keeps coming back to meet me is the same soul crushing intrusive thought.

My mom is going to die. It is like a punch in the gut every time it appears. And I feel insane because I've never had this thought before having my baby and in a way like, duh, aren't we all going to die? And though I read about intrusive thoughts related to postpartum hormones, I mean, I didn't expect it to be this relentless or impact my nervous system this badly.

And for those of you who don't know what an intrusive thought is or are, here's how to identify them according to an article I read from Harvard Medical School. So the thought is unusual for you, right? So an intrusive thought is usually very different from your typical thoughts. For example, it might be uncharacteristically violent. Number two, the thought is bothersome.

If a thought is disturbing and it's something you want to push out of your mind, it might be an intrusive thought. And finally, the thought feels hard to control. So intrusive thoughts are often repetitive and they just won't freaking go away. So as I reread this list, I'm saying to myself, check, check, check. And I will have the thought about my mom have multiple violent nightmares.

June Suepunpuck (05:48.013)
and just find myself crying as though she has already dropped dead. She's alive, folks, which leads me to think about all of my regrets or questions I should have asked her but never did. But of course, I still could, because why did I mention she's still alive? So yes, Kelly from Harvard Health Publishing, my thought is abnormal, disturbing, and repetitive AF.

and like nails on a chalkboard, but like on loop. So the first time it happened was about a few weeks postpartum. I mean, I can still feel it so vividly in my whole being. My parents were spending the night to help with baby bear. So my mom watched him while the rest of us watched Alien Romulus. So I started getting intense anxiety during the movie. I mean, I love action horror films usually.

but for some inexplicable reason, my fingers, hands, and my arms were suddenly achy. You know, the kind I imagine arthritis feels like. And as the pain escalated, I also felt a panic attack coming, something that rarely happens to me. know, so I ran over to my mom's room. I curled up into the fetal position like a shrimp, and I just cried.

hysterically into her lap. That is also something that rarely happens. And you know what? Surprisingly, the former tiger mom of mine was comforting. She was sweet. She didn't inadvertently criticize me or try to fix my problems or make it about her feelings. You know, she just rubbed my back and said what I was feeling was normal and temporary and

Honestly, it was the version of my mom I had long wished for. And maybe for the first time, I genuinely felt I was able to fully receive her support. So thank you years of mother healing and therapy. But, you know, while I sobbed in her arms, feeling like a little girl again, I realized three things in that moment. You know, number one, the mother in me needs mothering. Number two,

June Suepunpuck (08:12.699)
My fingers, hands, arms, they were all aching from the countless hours of clutching the side rails of my hospital bed, bracing for each painful contraction and push. And I mean, that revision, again, just still pops into my head and that feeling still courses through my body as I read this. And number three,

My mother, this woman who also went through an excruciating labor process to have me, I'll have to tell you guys one day, she is going to die, you know, but eventually. And so I've been carrying this third very intrusive thought for seven months now, and it still hasn't let up because the harsh reality is while I'm celebrating the birth of my son and the start of one life, I'm also quietly bracing for the eventual end of my parents.

I mean, that strange, uncomfortable truth is a hard pill to swallow. And when I let the intrusive thoughts win, I can feel emotionally and physically frozen. I mean, it sucks. It truly, truly sucks. And no one I know warned me about this kind of in-between, you know, the delicate, disorienting seesaw of grief and joy, of life ending and life beginning. And yet here I am.

one arm cradling new life, the other clinging to the people who gave me mine and literally holding a birth certificate in one hand and a living will in the other. I'm so pissed about it. And laughing one minute, of course, and feeling completely sad and overwhelmed the next. You I guess this is what it means to be human, isn't it? Messy, nonlinear, beautiful, brutal. And maybe that's why I keep coming back to the idea of a joy rebellion.

And that's something that I deeply feel like we should all start because too many of us are still waiting, waiting for things to calm down, for the grief to pass, for the conditions to finally be perfect before we let ourselves feel good, to feel alive and to feel joy. But if I've learned anything lately, it's this, joy isn't what you feel instead of grief. Joy is what you dare to feel even with it.

June Suepunpuck (10:32.424)
This isn't about denying, by the way, pain or the reality that life blows sometimes, because it does. It's about refusing to let the hard parts be the only thing we make room for. I mean, what if we spent as much time thinking about the stuff that's going right as we did complaining about the shit that's going wrong? mean, note to self, June, put this on a sticky note in the bathroom. Maybe even get a tattoo on my forehead. And, you know, if you're

in that weird in between right now, I hope you'll remember this too. Intrusive thoughts don't get smaller when we hide them. They get louder. And by the way, what's been helping me isn't trying to like positive think my way out of them or pretending they're not there. Because personally, I've spent years alternating these as coping mechanisms and I've got to say they don't work long term. They don't work. So what's been most helpful for me has consistently been the following actions.

not backed by science, but my own life experience. First off, I admit the intrusive thought out loud to myself. Name it, no matter how bizarre or shameful. Then I get over how cringe I'm being and admit the thought to someone safe. know, personally, this is the scariest part because it always feels so vulnerable. But as an aside, like I can talk to my

husband about it. I've extensively talked to my best friend about it. And each time I admit it, it gets a little bit better. But it even takes practice with people that I'm even closest with. And when I do get the courage to actually say the hard thing, there is nothing more joyful to me than being witnessed and held space for when I'm feeling my worst because it's like a deep level of acceptance.

from others and also like a deep self-acceptance of all the worst, darkest parts of me to myself. And of course, you know, I eat, sleep, nap, touch grass, whatever feels good to my nervous system for grounding. Lately, my weapon of choice is eat. As you all know, I've talked about my emotional eating that I'm working on, you know, allowing myself to mourn whatever else comes up, you know, along the way.

June Suepunpuck (12:58.878)
letting the grief, the fear, et cetera, move through my body instead of letting it build a permanent home in my chest, which I believe is probably why I had those panic attacks, because those things kept growing and growing and growing, and the internalization of all of these feelings always manifest in my body, rejecting me. So...

That's kind of what I do. I'm curious to know what you do in these situations, but I want to say it's not a perfect fix. But every time I do give myself permission to feel it all, to name the thought, to cry, to breathe, it loses just a little bit more of its power. So if this resonates with you at all, know you're not broken for having these thoughts. You're just human, a human who loves deeply, who feels everything all the way to the bone.

and who is learning day by day that even the heaviest moments can make space for a little bit of light and maybe even a little joy.

So that is my essay with, of course, a lot of commentary in between from me for this podcast audience. But I want to say that, you know, even doing this and reading it again is particularly hard for me to relive because I am still months later processing the feelings around it and what happened after I actually wrote that draft. So

The moment, by the way, that I cried in my mom's lap is probably going to be one of those core memories in my adult life. And I'm so grateful for it. And I still get really emotional thinking about it because if I did not, you know, do that thing that I feel like my unhealed angry teenage self probably would have.

June Suepunpuck (15:05.795)
just been like, buck up, don't rely on anybody. Her reaction might disappoint you. You know, I feel like if I let that win, I would not be able to have that beautiful of an experience with my mom. And I really value it now as a mom to really kind of like see.

how much efforting and she did the best that she could as a parent and my parents did the best that they could as parents. But it is very, it's a gift. Vulnerability is a gift and I don't know, I'm really grateful. And at the same time, I'm really upset that, at the same time I got this amazing gift of

love and acceptance and care and nurturing and mothering that I really needed. This like shitty thought came, you know, like I'm so when I get, when I can't zoom out and I look at it, I get so mad. I get so mad that how could this steal my joy? How could I let it steal my joy? Like what's wrong with my brain? Like why did it do that? You know, and

At the same time though, like looking back at everything that's happened and that's part of the reason why I wanted to come on the podcast and kind of give a recap is because so much happened that I didn't share on my StubSec essay when I actually published it. Because when I wrote the draft about a month later, knowing full well that I had spent months already grieving this like weird intrusive thought and not a month later, a few months later.

my mom ended up in the ER and it was a heart condition that she already had, but it was maintained. She was on medication. It was fine, seemingly. And then my intrusive thoughts were, my God, she's gonna die, she's gonna die, she's gonna die. And it ended up being so crazy because the doctor was like, okay, well, let's try to contain her AFib.

June Suepunpuck (17:36.313)
I'm not even going to go into what that is. But they like shocked her heart to try to treat it so that she wouldn't have to take all these medications that were clearly not working. And I want to say that, you know, it worked at first and we were like, yes, my gosh, we were so joyful. She was so excited. She was so happy. We were, you know, there's video of my, that my dad took of me and my mom just like crying because it felt like a miracle.

my goodness, this procedure worked. She is happy again, totally different person. And she also named all the things that she was really thinking about and never shared, which was like, my gosh, I get to live longer with my grandson. And that same night, all of a sudden she relapsed. Everything went seemingly back to normal and she was stubborn. She's a very stubborn woman.

I was like, no, I'm not gonna go to the hospital. Let's see what the weekend does. And in her voice, when I called and checked in with her that night, I knew something was wrong. I knew that something's off and we need to get this checked. And so we did and she got an EKG on Monday. And that day the doctor was like, you need to go to the ER, like right now. And...

I'm glad I was there because her stubbornness, she admitted it. She was like, no, don't think I would have gone had you not forced me to go to the ER because I feel like in order to even go to the ER, you have to be like dying, you know, like really dying. And I'm like, what? Are you serious? So that's a whole other can of worms I'm not going to share on the podcast, but I'm so grateful that we went because they were like, yeah, this is not good.

She has Afib and Aflutter. And these are two heart conditions that we will need to do procedures on because clearly the medication's not working. So she ended up, luckily somebody canceled the next day, but she got two back-to-back procedures under anesthesia. And so, you know, I am just thinking like, just wrote this freaking sub stack. I just admitted the hard truth in writing.

June Suepunpuck (19:56.579)
something that I feel like I've been dealing with for so long now and grieving and crying on my husband's chest as though my mom has died. And here I am at the ER potentially facing that very nightmare. And for everybody, she is fine. I know I sound like emotional and

raw and as though it happened yesterday, it did not. But I think I'm still processing it and I think this is the intention of season two, which is to share with you how I'm attempting to find joy when the reality of human existence is so much up and down and grieving and hardship. And I'm so grateful in a way, looking back on my intrusive thought.

Not to say that my intrusive thought was true, although now I'm like, was it intrusive thought or was it intuitive knowing that something bad was gonna happen? I have no idea. I'm not gonna look too deep into that. But I, looking back now in retrospect, can definitely say like, my gosh, I'm so grateful that I had that intrusive thought because I spent so much time grieving and thinking about the worst case scenario and

renegotiating my values and really praying for more time with my mom and, you know, appreciating all that she is and all that she's done. So that when the time came and it was truly awful and I faced my biggest fear in the hospital bed, I was able to be present and

I feel like had I not been doing so much grieving, I don't think I would have been good then. Like I felt as though I had at that point surrendered to a level of acceptance that was able to create some modicum of joy to enter in each moment and each phase of the relentless awful news that kept coming.

June Suepunpuck (22:19.696)
And I think it's because I had spent so much time grieving and mourning this intrusive thought and having those nightmares and feeling like, my gosh, I wish I could go back in time and do X. Like all of those were at the forefront of my mind so I can make different choices when that time potentially came. And I know that it is inevitable, right? We all die.

But I think there's a different level of avoidance around this taboo topic, even though we all experience it. And it reminds me of the season one interview that I did with Jodie Wellman, who was the episode, How to Find Joy Before You Die. And the whole thing is about being able to recognize that we all have this temporary countdown. But what are we going to do about the time we have left, right?

And so that kind of experience and receiving all of that information and emotion and feeling and finding somehow the joy within the grieving moments for me just was like, okay, go ahead June, share it, press publish. And I did, right? And so when I...

it first published, it was like, here's this little essay about what I've been going through. And it's just a fraction of the vulnerable state I was in, right? Because that was from the perspective of somebody who wrote it way before all of these heart procedures and all of the grieving that I did. So I'm grateful that I had my intrusive thought. I hate it.

I still hate it. But I'm grateful for it because of what it offered me in the moment that I needed joy the most and hope the most, right? And I'm grateful that I shared my vulnerable story on Substack because since I hit publish, I've heard so many stories from you all. I've heard so many amazing

June Suepunpuck (24:41.477)
stories of people's delicate in-betweens and their own intrusive thoughts and how they've experienced, you know, being at a certain age where you are, you have kids, but at the same time you're grieving your dying parent. Like I have just experienced so many people experiencing this universal thing. So with that, it gave me a reminder of like, yeah.

I'm not the only one. by sharing, that's a good thing because maybe you'll feel less alone too, you know? So I'll leave you with this question. Same one, I keep asking myself, what's been stealing your joy lately? Maybe it's a thought that I won't let go of or a fear that you just can't shake.

or the grief of something ending while something else is beginning. You know, those are all the things that I personally went through, but what is stealing your joy lately? And whatever it is, what would it look like to meet it with compassion instead of judgment? Because if I could turn, if I could turn back time, I will give more compassion. I would, I would really give myself more compassion because I spent a lot of time.

being like, why am I feeling this? What is wrong with me? You're disgusting and gross and dark and she's fine. Like, why are you doing this? And now I'm just like, thank goodness I had that thought. I'm glad I went through that process. I am grateful for it. So if this resonated at all, and if you want to read the original essay on Substack, it's on the Joy Guy June Substack, but

All in all, I want to say thank you for being here with me in the messy middle. I'd love feedback on how you're experiencing your messy middle and if any of the things that I've shared today resonate with you. So until then, I hope you take one brave messy step at a time to find your own joy.

June Suepunpuck (26:58.535)
If you love this episode and want more, there are a few ways to stay connected. You can explore more resources over at JoyGuideJune.com. That's where you'll always find the latest episodes, upcoming events, and ways to work with me. And if you want a community where you can be loved and to also see some of my more private journal essays.

You can join me on the Joy Guide June substack. That is also where you will find extra nuggets of wisdom inspired by each of our podcast episodes. And of course, if you're craving personal guidance, you can book a one-on-one joy guidance session with me. It is private, it is custom, and a space for you to get clear on what's next for you and your path to joy. So no matter how we stay connected, I am so glad you're here and I will see you next time.