Ep. 164 Pt. 1
===

[00:00:00] Fours can really get into their emotions, almost to the place where it's fantasy. It's not even real. And books and knowledge can ground you, you know, and bring you back to what's actually true and real. Now obviously you can swing the other way, right? You know, having too much knowledge and, and relying too much and not being able to do.

But I can see how from a very healthy standpoint, when, when the four gets too much outside themselves or too into their emotions, Logic that reasoning can bring them back.

Hey everyone. This is Beth. And I'm Jeff. And this is your INI Graham coach, the podcast where we're here to help you to see yourselves with astonishing clarity so that you can break free from self condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom in Christ.

Well, we're on YouTube, so head over [00:01:00] there, watch this. Like and subscribe so you don't miss any of the new content that we're releasing. Well, today we're gonna be talking about type four s in their two wings. R type three and type five. And the concepts of wings for the Enneagram are new to you. Head over to episode one 60 where we, uh, do a thorough explanation of what the wings are in more detail.

Essentially, the wings are the two types directly next to your main type on the Enneagram symbol. So there's no way that you're gonna be a four with a nine wing, mm-hmm. , or a four with a six wing. You're only gonna be four with both of the wings of the five and the three. So as a type six, five, and seven are my wings.

And for Bethy here, she's a nine with a eight wing and a one wing, both of which I'm very familiar with. Yes, you are. Yeah. So today's episode, again, we're gonna be talking about our type fours and their three and five wings, but don't forget that the driving force behind their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.

Predominantly come [00:02:00] from the core motivations of the type four. And the core motivations again, are the core fear, desire, uh, weakness and longing. And that is going to be how they see the world, how they interpret the world, and then how they react to the world based on those core motivations. Now, their wings are going to try to influence their main type because their wings are parts of them.

That have their own core motivations. And so that means they have their own core fears, desires, weakness, and longing. And that means that they see the world interpret it and want to react to it in their own way. So it's trying so hard to go, Hey, for today's episode, type four, Hey, type four. I think you aren't seeing it right.

You need to see it this way. You need to react to it this way. So we're gonna be explaining how these wings really try to impact and influence the main type. What maybe surprising is that the reality is that we have relationships with these wings in our life and they play a significant role in our lives, [00:03:00] but maybe referring to wings as parts of us, um, which we discuss a lot in our new book.

More than Your number. Maybe that sounds a little bit, uh, weird to you. . But the reality is, is that we actually use this kind of vocabulary all the time, and especially when it comes to wings, because you may feel both like, Hey, I want to do this, but I also want to do this. Or, um, I like this, but I also like this.

Or maybe even the neg the negative and, uh, positive where, yeah, I really feel bad about that, but then I also feel this other kind of healthy way about. It's all mixed in and wings kind of draw that out of who we are in all of the variances that make up an Ingram type. As we often say on our platform, each Enneagram type is like a color at Sherwin Williams.

Uh, you may be looking for blue, but guess what? There's a thousand different blues and these parts of us showing up in that particular way. Mm-hmm. really emphasize. . Well, that's right Jeff. And before we introduce our guest, I wanna just paint a picture of what [00:04:00] the type four, the introspective individualist is like.

They're authentic, they're creative, expressive, deep. They can be temperamental, um, but they also have imaginations, um, and exude emotions and feelings. See, the type four s are very unique. They're authentic, they have a lot of depth to their emotions. They're definitely not gonna be surface. And for the fours, they really can see beauty all around them.

Um, they embrace a wide range of emotions and really can see what is happening around them. They're very intuitive. They bring, um, a profound understanding to despair and suffer. and they are so brave, um, and able to sit in the midst of a lot of sorrow and grief and to hear from people in what they're experiencing because you know, there's some types out there that are just like, let's move on.

Just be positive. Like, this is too uncomfortable. But our fours really [00:05:00] excel at being there for people, right? Where they need you to be, um, and listen for as long as the person needs. . Now when you're with a type four, you're going to feel that genuine sense of listening and understanding and actually being there for you.

Now the other thing about type four is, is deep down the, the place that they're gonna struggle is they have this idealized version of themselves. Um, someone that is very, uh, socially adept, attuned to, um, able to bring out. The most beauty and authenticity of who they really are. But because they see around them that they don't have that, they feel that they're defective and flawed in some way.

And so when they start to feel that they're defective and flawed, you're gonna see them pull back to withdraw, to be more self-absorbed, maybe temperamental, and really feeling that they don't have as much to offer the world because this idealized version of themselves. Isn't being brought to the surface and isn't there.

[00:06:00] Um, now this really comes from those core motivations. So the type four s core fear is being inadequate, emotionally cut off, plain, mundane, defective, flawed and insignificant. But they desire. To be unique, special, and their most authentic self, but they struggle with the core weakness of envy. Now, what this means here in the Engram is that they feel tragically flawed and something foundational is missing inside them.

But when they look around, they feel like everyone else possesses these qualities that they're lacking, which then creates that envy. Now their core longing or the message their heart longs to hear is to hear. You are seen and loved for exactly who you are, special and unique. Bethy. You've on this series, on podcast, you've gone through each of the types.

It is interesting to hear how you as a nine, Uh, describe the types, not in the words, but the, how [00:07:00] you, uh, enunciate the words for a four. What, what is it you're trying to get across? About a four? Yeah. You know, I, when I think of fours, I, I'm very careful to do my very best. To describe the four from how they, how they really feel.

Mm-hmm. and their experiences because they're so often misunderstood. And even as a nine and I see all nine perspectives, I hold the position that I don't. Really know, and I don't really understand, but I'm gonna do the best I can. Mm-hmm. . And so I'm always looking to the fours to make sure that what I'm saying matches up with their, um, experience.

Now each of the type four s are gonna be different and unique in their own right. Mm-hmm. , so I'm never going to hit it perfectly, but I always wanna just be sure that they feel well understood and heard and represented. And so probably the way that you're hearing me talk is to emphasize [00:08:00] things. I've heard mean the most to them.

So I mean, we, right before this episode, we had just recorded with some type sevens. Mm-hmm. and you were much, you had, you were bubbly , you were smiling. You, uh, when we're eight, you're much more direct. You're like, you're, you're not holding back anything. You're just as a true nine. I am blending, emerging with the tight No, even whatever you're talking about.

That's so fun. No. Yeah, it. But it is, it's, I, when I, when I think of the forest, I think of this deep, rich, beautiful soul. Mm-hmm. that is almost like sitting next to water and reflecting and allowing the emotions of the beauty around them. Yeah. to just envelop them and wanting those feelings to also envelop everyone around them.

Yeah. No matter what those emotions are. It doesn't have to be like with, with a sevens positive, it's any of the emotions. Yes. Like just allow what's there to be true. And so that's. What I'm envisioning now, I was experiencing it, just listening to you, uh, to [00:09:00] yeah, go through an explanation of the type, so that's really awesome.

Well, our guest today are Madeline Mace and Dr. Mickel Harris. So, uh, Madeline, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Thank you so much for having me. Wow. I, I feel, I feel like Beth described so much of what my inner soul Yes. Longs to hear. Um, to say much more about myself. I don't know.

You kind of covered the, the deepest aspects that doesn't normally get attributed, I think, um, outside of talking about the Enneagram. So I mean, I really appreciate that. But a little bit about me. I'm a student. I'm in my second quarter of, um, of school for Marriage and Family Therapy. Um, I'm doing a dual master's in, uh, my second is in Religion and Society.

Um, and so I am, I have a lot of, a lot of homework because of that. Um, and I'm also interning [00:10:00] currently, um, in a, uh, at the Behavioral medical Center, uh, with, uh, adolescents. . And so there's a lot of crisis that I work with and people ask me how I love it or how I like it, and people don't actually, uh, think that I'm gonna say I, I do really deeply enjoy working, um, with these kids, uh, who are in crisis because I, I can handle that, um, that seriousness, that depth of, of crisis and pain.

Um, and I feel like that's where I feel most comfortable, which is, Sounds really odd to some people. Um, but other than that, I'm, I'm a sculpture artist. Um, as you can see, I'm kind of in my studio at the moment. What you're seeing is my bedroom portion. But, um, the rest of my desk is, um, my art studio space.

Um, but yes, I wear a few different hats. But at the, at the this moment, I'm a student . [00:11:00] Okay. That's awesome. That's great. I remember the first time I ran into a double major at the University of Kansas. I'm like, Why, why would you do that? ? Yeah. I'm trying to get out of one . Yeah. Yeah. Well, but Dr. Harris, you have, uh, beat us all here and you've just mm-hmm.

Uh, you've got all kinds of degrees, but, uh, well, welcome to the podcast. Uh, why don't you tell our audience a little bit about yourself? Yes. Thank you. I just, this is sort of a wow moment. I, uh, I'm so excited to see you all together live. I feel like I'm almost fangirling a little bit, so thank you all for.

Creating a space. Usually there's a, like, uh, Mike Wakowski over my face because, uh, usually everybody just wants to talk to Beth, but, uh, yeah, that's not true. But we do make, we can make sense. So it's true. every live event work out, you know, the monster Zinc, you know, and every time Mike Wasowski is like, look at me, and he has like a big thing around his head, like, you can't see him.

Mm-hmm. . [00:12:00] Which is, which is actually really funny and humorous being the nine. It's like, oh, that's great. People do wanna hear from me. Yes. . Anyway, well thank you for being Yeah, no, I loved your visual of sort of sitting by that body of water and just allowing those wave to envelop you and that hope that others around.

When you said that, I instantly got a person in mind and I thought, Wow. There's, there's that tension point that I think does come up for me a lot. But I work as a licensed psychologist and, uh, I specialize in grief and loss. So I was also resonating when you said that we, you know, have the capacity to sit in the depth of hard moments and seasons with people.

Um, like Madeline, that's my comfort zone. I can sit in that. I can walk in that and help support people who aren't coping, uh, with various types of loss. And it's just been really beautiful to have that as a niche. Yeah. I say that it's not a sexy niche, [00:13:00] but it's a necessary one, , so I'm glad to be able to be able to do it.

Sure. Very necessary. Yeah. And, and, and that's what, you know, I love about the body of Christ, right? I mean, God created us differently. To handle different things. And sometimes he does call us to things that are harder for us. I mean, there are gonna be some types, you know, there, there are therapists that work, um, that are type seven s that work with grief as well.

They're gonna do it very differently. Um, but that's also gonna be in a, in some sense, A a strain, it's gonna be harder for them to sit in those more uncomfortable moments, but it doesn't mean they can't do it. But you guys really are the body builders or the heavy lifters of grief, sorrow, sadness, deep emotions.

And it could be even high emotions too. It's not always the darker emotions, but you guys really. Are the bodybuilders that can withstand a lot of exertion and uh, weight and, and depth and intensity. Mm-hmm. really in the sphere that some of us would be [00:14:00] uncomfortable. And so for that, we're very, very grateful cuz it is absolutely a space that's needed.

And thank you for calling us bodybuilders. No one's ever called me that. I'm gonna own that . Yes. Yes. Yeah. . That's so funny. How awesome is that? Well, it, it's common for people to talk about, uh, their dominant wing, which, although there is some, certainly some truth to it. . Um, the reality is, is that we function out of both of our wings, and both wings can actually show up in healthy and unhealthy ways.

Mm-hmm. , today we're gonna be talking about the type four wings because it's important to, uh, recognize and be aware of when these parts of us show up. So for the type four, that's type three and also type five. Now one may be less dominant than the other, but it's still there playing a role. Yeah. All right, so then let's, uh, jump into your wing five and let's kind of just paint a picture of what the Wing five is.

So why does the [00:15:00] Type five do what it does? And again, this is gonna be, be based off those core motivations. Um, your Five Wings core fear is the fear being annihilated, invaded. Thought of as incapable or ignorant having obligations placed on it. Um, and really the fear of energy depletion or the depletion of their resources.

But the desire for the five is to be knowledgeable, capable, and competent. Um, so what you'll notice with this Wing five is a part of you that wants to, with. It wants to be wise. It's also very innovative and an observer of all things. It's very curious and craving to learn more and more, but it fears that it lacks inner resources and that too much interaction with others is going to lead to some sort of catastrophic depletion of their energy or emotional reserves.

And when it starts to feel that, it really feels this need to put up some boundaries and to withdraw from [00:16:00] others and need its own space to re. now the Type five Wing, um, will increase the four's creativity, um, from this intellectual viewpoint because fives can really take this knowledge and the four is gonna be able to take the knowledge and go.

Pretty far with it, with this creativity spin. So you can conceptualize new ways of seeing things, uh, new viewpoints, and bringing so much more value to the world when you're actually incorporating not just the intellect, but the emotions as well. So I would love to hear from you guys. How does your Type Five from a Healthy Viewpoint show up and how does that contribute and help your type four?

So for me, , um, the healthy aspects, I would say, similar to what you said, um, about, you know, craving knowledge, craving, wanting to observe and just so I feel like a sponge often. I feel like [00:17:00] I just wanna, growing up, I. I thought I was so different because all my peers were out playing and I just wanted to sit at the adult table and listen to whatever they had to say.

Cause I rep, I associated that with knowledge. I associated that with like, something I didn't understand. Okay. What are you talking about? Politics. What? Like what is that or what are you talking about? Religion. What did, ok, what are you, whatcha are you talking about here in this, um, social experiences or social justice or all of these different aspects?

I. What do you have to say? Can I, what's your perspective? How can I glean? And that has truly impacted how I do my artwork, how I process. I think it's influenced my worldview, but sometimes I think I am too scared to form a worldview sometimes because I'm like, wait, but I might have missed something. I might not have learned enough to formulate a, a well-rounded perspective.[00:18:00] 

So I think there's pros and cons to that, um, because I am constantly wanting to learn more, but sometimes I'm like, well, is it enough for me to form my own stance on certain large, you know, um, you know, certain, say controversial topics. How, I'm just curious cuz with your artwork, , do you just jump in and like do something or do you sit and conceptualize or do you bring in some information or how, what do you, what is your process with art and, and maybe where does the five show up?

Ooh, love this question. So often I was curious about why I felt like, okay, I don't have just these, these, I don't have an imagination like some of my other friends did. And, uh, when I got my fine art degree mm-hmm. , um, in college, Some of my friends were just like, things were just in their head, just like random inspiration, at least seemingly more random inspiration.

But I felt like I [00:19:00] had to respond to something. Um, so any sort of information or something that, like an idea that I've heard about, okay, like how am I going to. Uh, collaborate with that idea and respond to it rather than come up with something, a design that's just out of, um, technically I do believe all art is, is a response.

Um, however, there are some those who just have wild imaginations that are, uh, that just kind of come from many places. For me, I feel very narrow. I feel like. . So for instance, this saw behind me, I saw this saw, okay, how am I gonna respond to it? Um, and I feel like I intellectualize the mundane and then I respond to it visually, and then I feel like I form the meaning out of it along the way or after the, the product [00:20:00] is done.

And I kind of. . I just sit in my thoughts a bit and I'm like, what is this? What is it telling me? What could it mean? What does it tell the viewer? What's the first impression they have about it? Um, so I think I get in my head a lot in my work. Sometimes I don't begin until I feel like the inspiration is there or I, or I feel the need to respond to an object.

Mm-hmm. . So, yeah, I'm very in my head about it. Right. That's what I was gonna say cuz like even just seeing the saw behind you, it says to me a lot of thought went into it. Um, yeah, just a lot of thought, intentionality. Um, and so you know that there's a story that goes with it that has a lot of meaning and so that's why I was kind of curious, like, you know, cause that five is bringing out that curiosity and observing, so you're observing the saw and.

but, but the four is also bringing the story and the depth and the, um, a [00:21:00] more creative, heartfelt bent to it. Um, so anyway, that's why I kind of went with that question so well, Dr. Harris, what about you? What does it look like for the healthy five to show up, you know, in your world? So I think that because I, I sort of land in that very.

Depth, um, emotion laden place. And so what the five sometimes does is sort of pull me away from that into more of a, um, retreating to investigate not only externally, but internally, um, which has really been powerful. Uh, there was something, Jeff, that you said, I think it was on a podcast and you were talking about how sometimes you noticed that your collector of books.

The motivation for getting the books, I, I can't recall the specifics, but I remember that really resonating with me and I went back and thought, well, gosh, I have pur purchased a lot of self-development, personal development books. [00:22:00] What is that about? And I think it's occurred in moments where I felt the most emotionally overwhelmed.

Um, where I'm sort of seeking, you know, that information, um, which has been great to draw me out of just the emotion of it all. Um, sure, of course. I have too many books in the house and that's a different story, , but, um, I think it's, it's served a really healthy purpose to that end for sure. Yeah, sure. You know, it's interesting you say that, Dr.

Harris, cuz I, I had the privilege of working with a type four mm-hmm. , uh, he was a lead pastor and I. Hearing you describe it that way. I remember there were seasons of my experience with him and his leadership that if he got too disorganized internally, he would look for these very practical ways to kind of almost.

Put his life back together. Yeah. Because he felt like he's losing grasp on things. Almost like an anchor. Yes. Right. It, it anchored him, it kind of brought him back like, okay, I've gone to [00:23:00] that place long enough, I gotta get back into reality. Well I think that, like, as I'm picturing it, cuz you know the fours can.

Really get into their emotions, almost to the place where it's fantasy. Yes. It's not even real. And books and knowledge can ground you. Mm-hmm. , you know, and bring you back to what's actually true and real. Mm-hmm. . Now obviously you can swing the other way. Right. You know, having too much knowledge and, and relying too much and not being able to do.

But I can see how from a very healthy standpoint, when when the four gets too much outside themselves or too into their emotions, that logic, that reasoning can bring them back. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's really, well, why don't we talk about the other part of the five, part of our hearts, um, that all the parts of our heart can show up in healthy and unhealthy ways.

As we talk about the five wings, uh, particularly the unhealthy characteristics, it's important to keep in mind that this part of us actually is good intentions and it's actually trying to help, even though it may be [00:24:00] misaligned in its methods. It's really trying to help and protect. And because of the five wings, also with the withdrawn type, it can make you perhaps feel even extra withdrawn or unable to move forward in life.

It believes that you must use your intellect to sort through emotions which can make your thoughts and feelings feel more accurate and cause you to react at life in people. From a false reality, it can also, uh, make you more secretive because you feel like others don't understand your need for privacy and don't appreciate how you process information and emotions.

All of this can increase the feeling that you are defective. Your five wing can also bring up feelings of arrogance. So when you notice you're feel you're feeling superior to others because of your uniqueness, perhaps your unhealthy five wing may, uh, be activated to counteract your feelings of feeling defective.

Uh, type four struggle with low self-confidence, but elevating yourself above others is a defensive mechanism then only increases your [00:25:00] problems. Self-confidence doesn't place you above others instead. It sees your inherent value and puts everyone on the same level, including yourself. So, uh, Dr. Harris, why don't we start with you for this first one is, um, how do you see your five wink showing up in an unhealthy way?

Yeah, so, uh, I was sort of lighting up inside as you were saying certain things, and I can definitely see how, um, acquiring knowledge. And sort of separating myself in, in a way to be unique has definitely in some certain cases manifested as well. She just thinks she has it going on, right? Not necessarily only other people's perceptions, , but even my own.

And I think that is sort of, uh, sort of a, a compensation for sometimes feeling that sense of inadequacy. Um, so I had to really be careful about, um, Acquiring more knowledge. Like I've really, especially in the past, the past four to five years, [00:26:00] stopped and asked, why am I pursuing this? Cause I'm seeking, you know, maybe another certification or another thing or whatever.

It's sort of stopping to ask what purpose is this gonna serve? And sometimes it does serve a purpose. Sometimes it's, I think, wanting to fill that gap of, okay, I just have all this information to sort of feel better. These harder parts and these tougher parts of myself. Um, so that's how it's shown up in my world, for sure.

Hmm. Yeah. Madeline, what about you? Well, I relate to much of what you guys said. Um, for me, I, I think how the five negatively shows up for me is I get emotional and mental paralysis. Mm-hmm. . So I, I feel like I'm locked inside of my head and my body. when I am in, when something happens that I feel emotionally flooded.

[00:27:00] Um, and I often feel like I can't physically move because I'm in my head. And it's amazing how the emotions and the, and your mind can influence how your body reacts. Because in my relationship I, there are times when, when, if there's an argument or something that's particularly emotionally triggering, um, and I get that flooding of feelings and then I'm in my head about it.

I am paralyzed. I feel physically paralyzed because I have to get out of my head and back into my. and yeah, it's, it's an interesting experience. Do you find anything particular that kind of helps break that? Well, that's a great question. I think, um, while I've been in therapy and also in school for, um, for marriage and family therapy, but I'm in my own personal therapy, [00:28:00] um, I've learned a lot about grounding techniques.

Mm-hmm. and those. Have been, you know, sometimes people might be like, not silly breathing, what, like, you know, those breathing exercises or standing up against a wall and just feeling the firmness of, uh, the solid wall behind you. These are very small things, but these are things that my body does react well too, because I, I'm kind of, , my senses are now reactivated and kind of, I'm getting back into my body and outside of my head.

And this is, this is actually, and, and Dr. Harris can confirm this and say more about what, um, what trauma survivors have, uh, experienced and, and how, how people react to that. Um, say let's say PTs d you know, getting out of your, getting out of that experience and back into your body into the moment. Um, and my therapist has shared that, you know, this emotional flooding getting out, I, I tend to [00:29:00] have to do those experiences.

Mm-hmm. cause it, it, these feelings are so real. Mm-hmm. and the mm-hmm. in, in the mind in these thoughts and these, you know, um, uh, mental flooding, um, it's just very real. I even had that this morning. I was having a really rough time and I told Jeff, I'm like, I'm not really. Exactly. I couldn't, you know, as a nine, you know, I'm like, I can't pinpoint exactly why I'm feeling this way, but I'm just not doing good.

He's like, why don't you go for a walk? You know? And so I did, and I felt so much better afterwards. You know, just that physical activity was so helpful. I'm sorry, Dr. Harris, you were, I just want to make sure that you understand in this moment that Yes, you we're right. Yeah. Thank, yeah. Great. I, I don't think I heard that as confidently as I was hoping, but, uh, I'm joking.

You were right. . It was helpful, but it was in the way that you explained it though, is like, I don't know what's happened. I just feel sad, like I want to cry. Mm-hmm. , [00:30:00] and it was like, Hey, everything around you is fine. and just let it run through your body. Yeah. And you can take a walk. You can do what?

There's a number of different things that help you to kind of get back into, uh, where you're at, into reality. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so today it happened to be walking and I'm glad it was a helpful exercise for you. Yep. Dr. Harris. No, I was just gonna add, Madeline, what you were saying about. Almost like a physical paralysis.

I, um, I really noticed the same thing. I notice it so much in my throat, especially when, um, you know, for example, with my fiance and I argue, or there's something, my dad died in 2020 and so I feel like in some ways I've been sort of walking around cramped and I'll notice that I'm holding my. . And so what's been interesting, like one of the tools that I've um, used is my Apple Watch, to be honest.

Uh, which will remind me like, oh, you need to breathe this, [00:31:00] like this reminder of I need to release and do what you're talking about with a grounding exercise to come back and really free up that, not. that happens to fall in my throat often. So yeah. Wow. There are a lot of funny things that come along with being an Enneagram type.

Mm-hmm. . But to hear you say like your watch reminds you like you're not breathing. Yeah, that's mine. Says your heart is beating really fast right now. Wow. The six, what does yours say, Beth . Mine says stand up . Oh, that's, this is funny you Apple Watch series. This. Seriously. I wonder, so if you're listening to this podcast, put it in the comments, , what is your most frequent, um, apple Watch alert?

Yes. According to your type. And I, I wonder, I, I don't know. No. Well, it's funny that you guys say that cuz I'm like, . [00:32:00] Yeah. It just keeps telling me to stand up and I'm like, I'm busy. I don't wanna stand up. That is so funny a thing. I'm comfortable . I need to get an Apple watch, is what I'm hearing. Well, of course you do now.

That's right. Fun. That would fun. Yeah, exactly. It'd be fun if the Apple Watch had. Ingram Alert Systems, like you're too much in your head or, oh gosh. You know, like, you're sure I would definitely type nine. I know, right? Like type nine. You need to like take a moment and you need to, you know, really think about what's going on now inside you.

Like are you merging with someone ? Yeah. There is a mindfulness part of the watch, I think. In the health app. There we go. I'm really curious now. Now we're gonna have to make a, if there's a Apple Watch app trends from Apple watches. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Let's, you need to make an app. An app with affirmations, reminders, any award, any watch[00:33:00] 

Exactly. Well, if you're interested in learning more about the Enneagram, head on over to your enneagram coach.com. You'll find everything you need to know there. And if you're ready to take the next step with maybe perhaps personalize Enneagram coaching, be sure to check out our incredible certified coaches@myenneagramcoach.com, and that's where you guys can.

Dr. Harris and Madeline Maye. So my, any graham coach.com is where all of our certified coaches are, so you can kind of see what they offer there as well. Sounds good. And if, for those of you who are like us and who love coaching others, Uh, paying it forward, seeing the ripple effect in people's lives through Engram Coaching, then check out our certification program@yourengramcoach.com slash b c.

And our team would love to help, you know, give you information or help you to know how to accelerate transformation in other people's lives. But always remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to [00:34:00] work harder, because it's the gospel that transforms. Thank you so much for tuning in today.

The next episode will dive into type fives and their wings. We'll see you then.