Okay. Have you ever thought this? Why can't I get it together? Have you ever thought that? Well, I know I have many times, if not every single day. And what I usually do is I shame myself because I have all of these rules or shoulds or odds from the community or within myself that I'm not following, or I'm not getting right. And I feel like I'm drowning or suffocated in these, uh, rules. Well, if that's you join me today in hearing from our guest, On a new book, she's releasing on why can I get it together? Kick unrealistic expectations to the curb in learning and resting in God's truth. Hey everyone. Welcome to your Enneagram coach. I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach and at YEC, we desire to help you use the Enneagram to bring real and lasting transformation to your life and relationships, and we're doing that by being deeply committed and training and raising up the. Best Enneagram coaches out there. Now in each episode, we are bringing you enlightening conversations with guests while also doing some Enneagram coaching or conversations with them. Now, if you're the type of person that you're like, man, I love the Enneagram. I've used it and I really want to bless others with it. Well, maybe becoming an Enneagram coach is the right next step for you. And if so, we invite you to take our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. But maybe you're interested in getting a coach yourself because you know, lasting transformation happens when you have someone on your side in your corner, seeing things, pointing out stuff and helping you to take that journey towards transformation. We'll get one of our certified Enneagram coaches and our Enneagram coaches can be found at my. Enneagram coach. com. That's my Enneagram coach. com. Okay. So with that, let's dive into today's episode with my very special guest, Jamie Ivey. Jamie is the creator and the host of a popular podcast. I'm sure you all know it, the happy hour with Jamie Ivey, and she really sees it as a place where people can come and talk about life and Jesus. She's the author of many books, but today I really want to focus in on this new book that she is releasing and it is why. Can't I get it together? Have you ever guys ever felt like that? Yes. I feel like that all the time. Well, her and her husband lived with her teenage kids in Austin, Texas. Well, let me bring her on and let's discuss all things about why I can't get it together. Hey, Jamie, it's so good to have you today.
Jamie:Hi, Beth. Thanks for having me.
Beth:Yeah. Um, okay. So tell me about this book. why can't I get it together?
Jamie:because I say that to myself almost every day, I literally just this weekend was with some friends and was doing something, and then I, I don't know what I did, who knows? And I was just like, Jamie, get it together. And I just, honestly, I mean, you know how it goes when you write books, this. Conversation started happening two years ago for this book. And I just started to think to myself, well, I'm constantly telling myself to get it together. And not always in massive ways, although sometimes it is massive ways, but also in like everyday things. And so I just thought if I feel this way. I bet a lot of other people often feel this, why can't I get it together feeling? And so we wrote about it, but the tagline is kick unrealistic expectations to the curb. And I just think a lot of times we're trying to get it together in areas of our life that frankly, we put expectations on ourself. We put too many shoulds on ourself. We're not dealing with our past hurt. And so there's all these layers of reasons why we often feel that way.
Beth:Yeah,
Jamie:And, and I'm going to tell you how I think you can not feel that way, even though I still feel that way every time, but how we can get closer towards feeling like, okay, how do I actually get it together? What does that mean?
Beth:Yeah, what does that mean?
Jamie:It means, it means you're chasing something other than getting it together. Like when I say that, I'm like, okay, the reason I can't get it together is cause I'm either failing at something, I'm doing the same mistake again. And really I think as a follower of Jesus and you and lots of your listeners are as well and viewers is that there's something more that we should be chasing other than just having this put together life. I think we should be chasing holiness. And so I think that comes from chasing, um, following Jesus better, but also acknowledging those areas of our life that we feel like we can't get it together. And, and I think at different seasons of life, we feel things way different. I mean, when my kids were a little Beth, I struggled with saying yes to too many things. Like I wanted to sign up for the Valentine's day cookies. I also wanted to sign up to serve here and serve here. And I often felt out of control because I said yes to too many things. So it's about different seasons in life as well.
Beth:Yeah, because, you know, just in regards to that, because, yeah, I think we're kind of, we're getting close to the same seasons of life. I'm in empty nest season. You're getting close to empty nest season. But looking back at those early years, I think in the earlier, younger adult years, we, We're looking for what are, what should we be doing or what do I have to be doing or what does society say, even though we're probably not cognitively thinking like what does society say, but that really is what we're doing. And we're piecing together all of the stuff that the world says we should be doing. And you can't do it all like we think we kind of can and we try to do it all and then we're exhausted and then all the shame comes in, which again comes to the why can't I get it all, get it together. And. As I've gotten older and I hear from my other friends that are kind of in the same season, it's like, okay, wait, what's going on? What, why was I chasing that for all of those things? Like, I don't, I don't have the time for all of this anymore.
Jamie:Mm hmm.
Beth:And I think there's a point in time where there gets to be a little bit more clarity of really, hopefully if you're growing, there's a little bit more clarity of like, no, I don't need to follow what people say need to follow what God is asking me to say, but. The problem with that, this is where I want to take you, and I want to get your thoughts on this. The problem is the church, and that's quotes, church kind of says, or the people in the church or the books that come out of the church say, you must do this, that, and the other in order to follow God or to be closer to God. When again, that can end up just being a lot of more shoulds. And is it really what? Is that what he's asking us to strive for? Is it what he's asking us to do? Is that kind of where you're going with the
Jamie:It makes perfect sense. And yes, and all of the ideas of what it feels like that if we're doing X, Y, and Z, then that equals good Christian. And while I love God's word, and I think there are a lot of standards set forth, forth for us in God's word. I also think there are a lot of faithful options within the Christian life. Like there are a lot of faithful ways that we can do things. I'm going to give you the smallest example, and this doesn't seem like a big deal. And quite frankly. Now, I don't think it's a big deal, but five, six years ago, I thought this was the most gigantic deal. I found out that one of my kids was listening to music that I didn't really love. Okay. So I always assumed like my husband and I are both in ministry. My husband's a pastor. Like we're just going to be walking around listening to like, you know, Maverick city and song and Austin stone worship nonstop. And, and then all of a sudden, one of my kids is choosing to listen to whatever they want and I don't like it. And it really bothered me at first. It bothered me a lot, but I started to think my son has his own faith journey. Right. And so that's a whole nother conversation that we can talk about is like walking alongside our kids on their own faith journeys. And I have my faith journey. But when I got down to it, the reason I didn't want my son listened to the music, this is embarrassing. It's not 100 percent because I didn't think it was good for him. Although I did think that I did think, Oh, there's a lot of other things we should put in our brain. Like what you put in comes out all the things.
Beth:Yep,
Jamie:But when I dug deep, it was like, what will people think if they know that my son or my daughter, I won't give away who it was is listening to fill in the blank. And so then I kind of had to ask myself. Well, at this point in my child's life, I didn't know where they were on their faith journey. So I had to even ask myself, what is the most important thing here? Is the most important thing me being angry with them every day because they listen to music that I don't think is okay? Or me desiring wholeheartedly that they fall in love with Jesus? Because I feel like they, one was going to help the other, right? And so that is the smallest example for years ago that I remember going, Jamie, what are you most concerned about here? And I felt like Even though no one ever said it, and I don't really think this is a rule or whatever, but I did feel like, man, what would people think if they knew that one of my kids was listening to stuff that I didn't think was appropriate and it probably wasn't appropriate? And I kind of had to step back Beth and ask myself, what do, what does my son need from me the most right now? Do they need me to harp on them day after day about their music? Which we could probably all agree isn't the best or do they need me to show them Jesus's love and I had to make a hard decision that I never thought I'd have to make and I have to be like, okay, I'm not saying anything else about the music. Because I want them to love Jesus and so that's a silly example in a sense But it was really real for me six years ago that I was like, oh my gosh How are we gonna do this? Um, and I've had a million other things that I've had to go Okay, what does it mean for me to love my kids my husband my people in my church my community? Um and not put standards on them that maybe were created in the 21st century or that there's nowhere in scripture, but we think this is what equals a good Christian, you know, and so
Beth:Yes.
Jamie:how do we do that? And I think there's a lot of untangling that comes on for all of us that have grown up in the church of like, Oh, where does it say this? Like, like, what is the standard we're putting on women that isn't actually biblical? So those things have been happening a lot in my life
Beth:Oh yeah. No, I. I hear you. And I think, so I just turned 49. So thank you. Thank you. Um, so next year is going to be the big one. Um, but growing up in the eighties, particularly the Christian world back then was very much shame based. These are the rules. This was how you must follow your family needs to look this way. They, you know, I mean, it, it, there was a formula that really wasn't. It really wasn't ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss Specifically said, but it was said, right? Like, and that's where the untangling for me has had to come in these kind of later years of my life. It's like, you're saying like, wait a second, where is it in the Bible that says that, or this or that, or watching this TV show versus that TV show. And then, like you said, with my kids. I want them to experience Jesus Christ
Jamie:mm
Beth:in my parenting.
Jamie:hmm
Beth:What does that even mean? What does that look like? Now, back in the day, that meant here are all the rules. And if you don't follow these quote unquote rules or expectations, I'm going to shame you. I'm going to discipline you. I'm going to, you're, you're going to feel the wrath. I'm like, is that, is that Jesus Christ? No. Jesus Christ comes alongside. He's curious. Like, you know, the woman at the well, he asked curious questions. He brings forth the truth in ways that is gentle and kind. I mean, like, you know, drawing a line in the sand, he didn't just shame the woman. He brought truth to bear that everyone had to see and experience for themselves. But he did it in such a way that was, um, without words. I mean, well, I mean, he did say, you know, let the first person cast a stone, but like
Jamie:Yeah.
Beth:it is provocative, but gentle.
Jamie:Yep. That's a good way to describe him. Yep.
Beth:and it's inviting, right? He is not pushing away. He's not shaming. He's not condoning. He's inviting you to truth. He's inviting you to grapple with what. What is best
Jamie:Mm hmm.
Beth:without forcing you into it.
Jamie:Yeah.
Beth:And I think the biggest word is it's inviting and it's warm. Is that kind of where you're going with it too?
Jamie:Totally. And I was, even when you were talking, thinking, not only I think that we need to be more compassionate and curious with those in our communities and those in our families, but what I've found over the last 10 years, probably because I've done more introspective work than I have ever in my life, is I need to be compassionate and curious towards myself. And so asking myself questions of even questions like, why is it that you think that, or who told you that, or where did you learn that? Or why do you think that's the only way? Um, another example that just popped into my head is, I want to preface this with, I am so grateful that I got to spend so many years at home with my kids as a stay at home mom. It is a, it is a privilege. And the reason I think it's a privilege is because that is not the understood assignment for most women in the world. Most women in the world have to work because they have to provide for their family. And so when I look back on my years as a stay at home mom, I'm grateful for it and I feel privileged that I was able to do it. But if I'm honest, Beth, when I became a stay at home mom, it wasn't because I thought I was privileged or I should be grateful. It's because I thought that's what a good Christian woman does.
Beth:Yep.
Jamie:And so, yeah. And so I don't know if anyone said those exact words, a good mom stays home with their kids. It's definitely implied. It's definitely what is talked about and looked about is in American Christianity as the best. And again, I'm so grateful. Like it is such a privilege, but I also don't think I ever thought I had a choice.
Beth:Yeah.
Jamie:And I look back on that and think, what, why was that and where did that come from and who set the standard? And so it's those types of questions, some big, some small, uh, that I have asked myself a lot. And as I've even dug deeper in a lot of those things, I realized that some of those things make me feel like I can't get myself together because I can't ever meet up to a standard that I didn't set or even the God didn't set or that my husband and I didn't set together, but there's a standard. Um, That's it. And so what I have found is when I would get compassionate and curious with myself with where this is coming from, it takes away some of that anxiety. It takes away some of that. I always say like, I feel out of control when, um, I can't get it together. And my least favorite thing in life is to feel out of control. Like. I hate it. It's like when I was younger and didn't know Jesus, I used to get trashed drunk all the time, Beth. And I don't know why, because I hate being out of control. Like it, that's not appealing to me at all. There's nothing that I hate it. But when I feel out of control is when I feel like I don't have control of life. And it's usually when. I'm saying yes to expectations. I'm doing shoulds because I think I should, or maybe I'm not dealing with the hurt in my life, or maybe I have too many responsibilities. And so that's what I talk about a lot in the book is like, we're, how do we get these unrealistic expectations out of our life and go back to God's word and see what it says?
Beth:Absolutely. And I would say, so just from an Enneagram perspective is what we have to realize is that there are the natural thought patterns and defensive mechanisms that our types have. So for instance, uh, for me as the type nine, I'm like, The record player that's in my mind is don't assert yourself. Well, if I can't assert myself, then I need to follow in line with whoever's telling me I should follow in line. Right? So I grew up in a very specific culture and community that said, this is the way you do things. And part of that was being a stay at home mom as well, even though Jeff was a pastor or ministry and we had 0, you know. But we're going to have to just grin and bear it and, you know, and all this stuff. And again, like I a hundred percent agree with you. I feel very privileged that I did do it. And I, all those things, but I followed in line because I shouldn't assert myself, you know, who am I? To know any better. I should just follow the six, which is your type. The type six is, well, don't trust yourself. You must trust others and follow in line and be faithful and dutiful in certain ways. And so you were given messages, whether implicit or, you know, not. And it's like, Oh, well, I, I must do these things and I must follow in line as well. But for your own reasons, and I think when we are curious kind to ourselves, we can start looking at those messages, not from a place of shame of, Oh man, I just, I put myself down cause I should, I can't assert myself and how, you know, that's terrible. No, like, Oh man. My, my poor younger self didn't realize that she could assert herself like that. Little Beth was just doing the best she could with the resources that she had, but now. Adult Beth or coach Beth can make different decisions and she can gather more information and, and move in a different direction than she thought possible before. And I think that's the beauty of growing. That's the beauty of understanding ourselves better. And also when we bring in the true gospel message, not just the culture message, the true gospel message, there's so much more compassion and. Um, grace that we can then move forward. Does, but did that message kind of resonate with you about
Jamie:Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And I mentioned earlier about how I've grown so much just in knowing myself in the last 10 years. And part of it is because of work I've done with around the Enneagram and then with my confessional community and growth like that. And so what I do feel in myself is this ability to trust myself a little bit more, I, uh, I I think I told you before we started that I made a big work decision in 2023. So the beginning of this year, I made a big decision and it was really hard. And I remember, I think my husband is. We've been married 22 years. I think he is even more aware of what is hard for me and trusting myself is hard for me. Like it is hard. And so I think he's aware of that. And I remember one time he said, I'm really proud of you for just figuring this out and making a decision. And I remember feeling like. Oh my gosh, I'm proud of myself too, because, because it was a really hard decision. It affected a lot of people's lives. And the thing that was hard for me, Beth is just to give everybody a little backstory. I have a company, but then about two years ago I started a podcast network.
Beth:Mm hmm.
Jamie:Well, in 2023, early 2023, I really felt God asking me to lay that down. That's not my lane. I got other things for you. That's not what I want you to do. Well, that was a hard decision because I had people that worked for me. You know, we had, we had people on our network, people making podcasts that trusted us. So it was, it wasn't just like me that was affected. It was people,
Beth:Which, let's just say, like, just for a side note, that's a big deal for a sex.
Jamie:huge,
Beth:Your whole thing is about being loyal, faithful, responsible. So I'm sure everything internal was like, you had alarms going off, like you can't set that aside. What about this? What about that? What about your commitments? I mean, so this is a big deal.
Jamie:It was huge. And when my husband would ask me, cause I walked with him through this for months before I made that final decision, and he would say, what. I think you've made your decision on what is holding you back. And I would say, what are my coworkers name? Because I would say she is because I don't want to do this to her. I don't want this to affect her life. And it was that, like, I can't imagine hurting you. And even though. It's my company and I'm the boss. I still don't want to hurt anyone. Oh my gosh. Um, but I think what I was, what I felt a lot during that time was just this ability to trust myself. And it was very, very scary, but you know this, I'm sure you teach us all the time, building that muscle up over the last 10 years of trusting myself. I found myself this last year, kind of like talking to myself, like, Jamie, you can make a decision. Like you can do this. And, um, because I think I've often felt like I don't know how to make a decision by myself. Like I need to get everyone's input and see what everyone thinks. And then I'll just pick the most, you know, if I asked five people, whatever three of the answers were, that's what we're going to go with. And so for me, having to make my own decision was really hard. It was really hard. Um, but I was really proud of myself.
Beth:And what was the outcome though? Yeah.
Jamie:down. The outcome was people lost their jobs. The outcome was I don't have that part of my company anymore, you know? And. For like six months previous to that, I would go to events and people would say to me, like, you are phenomenal. You're doing so much. I can't believe this. You've got this podcast network. You're amazing. And on the inside, I was like, I hate this. Like, I don't want to be what you're telling me, but you're lifting me up. You're telling me how awesome I am, but I feel like a fraud. And so I think there was a little fear too, of like. Oh, what kind of, what are, what are people going to think about me? Like, oh, she can't, she couldn't do it. You know, it was too much. Of course she couldn't, we knew she couldn't, but I'll tell you, Beth, I. Man, I made that decision and I felt like, I felt like a ginormous, like boulder came off of my shoulders and I knew it was the right thing. And I just had to like walk through it. And I knew it was hard for people. It was hard for me, but I was proud of myself.
Beth:and today, like, cause we just talked beforehand, it's a much better space for you.
Jamie:I'm so happy I'm doing, I'm in my lane. I'm doing what I need to be doing. And so it's really, really great, but it was hard making that decision. Cause I struggle with making decisions
Beth:Well, I think that's the thing. So I think in the American culture, it's, it seems like it's, who cares if, if that's the best thing, what you need to do is you need to look like you're excelling and you're growing.
Jamie:and I went backwards. And that's just not what you're supposed to be doing in 2023. you're supposed to be going forwards.
Beth:And that that's more of like the American culture. But that's not necessarily what is good and right for the individual or the team or whatever it is. And so all the more kudos to listening to really your authentic self, which for sixes is a huge deal, right. To be authentic, to be real. Um, and. Because you, you've got the weight of the world's messages on you and the, the legitimate responsibilities of people's wellbeing, like their livelihood, and you're having to make that choice, but to move forward, God's going to take care of them. Right? Like you are not the sovereign God, even though it. Sometimes it could feel like it, you know, as a boss and stuff, but he will take care of them. You need to follow what he has for you. And then the outcome of trusting yourself, um, and being faithful to him versus being faithful to man is now you're feeling like, gosh, I am living, you know, in my lane. I am fulfilling the things that, that feel right and true to me. And this is a perfect example of. A six, a type six who is going to be scared out of their mind of what could happen, but taking the time to really understand yourself and what you need and moving forward. Here's the thing I want people to recognize because people, I think they think sixes are a fearful all the time or, and yeah, you, you can think of all the, the worst case scenarios or what could happen, but what I want people to recognize is how courageous. Sixes are, they're the most courageous on the Enneagram because they're constantly dealing with what could happen in a negative sense, but they move forward in it. But the hardest part of the six is to move forward in it, in what is authentic and true for them to trust themselves. And when they do that, that hard work of growth, what they'll find on the other side is the piece that actually can transcend understanding within them. And it sounds like that's kind of what you're experiencing. Yeah.
Jamie:Yeah, I do. I have a friend here who's an Enneagram six and we always talk about how, what is the type of six who goes toward their, um, what is that called? Cataphobic. We're both like that. So I would say, honestly, Beth, I would say I have a lot of fear in my brain all the time, all day long. Um, I'll give you like, I think worst case scenario is a lot. Like we went to the movies this week to see Elf. We go every, we're recording this in December for those of you. And we went to see Elf. And when we walked into the movie theater, there was a helicopter circling. Okay. Which is not good news. It's just like circling. We saw a bunch of police cars. I'm a, as I'm walking in, this man says, did you hear there's a gunman on the loose? And I looked at my daughter and I said, the man couldn't hear me. I wasn't trying to be rude, but I looked at my daughter and I said, well, I could have done without that information before I walked into this movie theater, because I got in and I was afraid, but I will tell you what, about 15 years ago, I left a movie theater because I had so much anxiety and I look at myself today and I sat down. I took a mental note of where all the exits were. I told my kids I was anxious. I just let everyone know I'm feeling a little anxious. Yeah. And then I enjoyed that entire movie and, and, and that gunman actually, they arrested him and he crashed a mile from my house. And so I read the paper the next day and I was like, look at you, Jesus, protecting us and the movie theater. And also I can, I was able to control my, I knew that fear was there. I felt it. And I was a little anxious. I told my people, Hey guys, I'm feeling anxious. Here it is. But I stayed through the whole movie, but I knew how to get out if I needed to. I saw that exit and I saw all the doors, but that's an example of I'm thinking about stuff all the time.
Beth:totally, yeah, and, and it's, it's good to, I mean, that's God created you that way. But what you did, what's important is that you were aware of it. You addressed it. You let your people know. Um, and the, so with my counselor right now, you know, when I'm talking to her about stuff, you know, she'll say, you know, Beth, your younger self only knew what to do in one, in one dimension. Basically, there was no space to hold multiple things at one time. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. But as an adult, we can. We can understand the younger part of ourselves, the techniques, the strategies that it would employ in the moment, but it doesn't have to now the adult doesn't have to just go in that direction. Now, sometimes those are the, maybe leaving the movie theater was the better choice and in your adult self couldn't make that decision. But what you did is you held the tension of the moment and you were able to say, you know what, I am a little anxious. And there's understanding for that, but I don't know if necessarily leaving this moment is the right move. And so I'm going to let everyone know that this is just the way it is, but I'm doing my own self work and I'm prepared if something were to happen,
Jamie:Follow me, guys, I know where to go. Follow me.
Beth:to be with a six in these situations. Um, but I think that's important for people to recognize that understanding yourself, your internal world doesn't mean those negative qualities go away. I will always be a nine and I will always comfort C or C comfort. I will always look for the easy way, the merging, um, people pleasing, like my, my younger self, that is all she knows. Um, but I don't have to succumb to them anymore. And I can, I can let my family know, Hey, I feel like a magnetic pole. To do those things
Jamie:Yeah. Mm
Beth:just want you to be aware, but I am going to move in this direction over here. That's healthier for me and kind of them cheering me on or them just knowing, or them supporting me. That's where they can come in. They can't fix me. They can't change, but they can support me even if it's just being quiet and
Jamie:Totally.
Beth:And that's really what it sounds like. It happened for you.
Jamie:It totally does and this is where I think I'm so glad I'm a follower of Jesus as an Enneagram six because I really do feel scared a lot like I almost got teary eyed just now like I was on a walk yesterday and granted this was right after that had happened, you know in a 10 mile radius of my house and I was on a walk yesterday and I live in a very quiet neighborhood, kind of out in the country. I was scared the whole time because I just felt like this unknown, like, what if something could happen to me? And I wasn't like, I mean, I walked for a long time, so it didn't send me back to my house. It didn't send me into a panic. And the reason I say I'm so glad I have faith is because, because I have this kind of underlying tension of anxiety in me. Because of work I've done because of growing in my faith can go, okay, I feel this tension. I feel this anxiety. And at the same time, I also know that no matter what happens to me is not out of God's hands today. And no matter what happens to me, God has not left me or dropped me or held me like all of those things. And so I can take my faith, the knowledge of my faith that I have in my head and my heart, and I can almost put it on top of that tension. And it's not where, like you said, that anxiety, It hasn't gone away for me. Like I, I, that'd be a miracle. Right. It doesn't, it doesn't rule me. Like it doesn't take over my life to where I can't function. And granted, some people, they have that and praise God for medicine and for counselors and all the things. Um, and so. I think that's something I've seen growth in my life in the last 10 years. And you said something about family. And I always say this when I talk about being an Enneagram six is my husband's an Enneagram three. And this is nothing new for me. I've complained about the unknown happening my entire marriage. Like we're walking down the street and I'll say to Aaron, have you ever thought about this car swerving and hitting us? And he's like, never, I've never thought about that. And I'm like, Oh, I think about it. Every time I'm. next to a car. And he used to say to me, Jamie, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Like that's impossible. That's not going to happen. That's so dumb. And it made me feel super like belittled. And because that feels real to me, it doesn't feel dumb to me. That feels very real. And so I remember a couple of years ago, I asked him to start saying to me, um, I can see how that would be a spill scary. Man, I'm sorry that you feel that and now he does that and it is a game changer It is a game changer for an Enneagram six to be able to say their fears out loud and not be belittled for them And my husband, he loves me. He's not going to let me stay there. You know, if, if it were getting like where I, you know, and in my house and can't leave, like we would take measures and get counseling and help and all the things, but for him to acknowledge that, Hey, I actually feel that way. And, oh, that must feel scary. And I'm like, it does feel scary, but we're still walking to the restaurant on the side of the road and you know, here we go. Um,
Beth:probably, if anything, does it It actually probably, um, feels validating. Like,
Jamie:It's almost like I can say it and then let it go.
Beth:yeah. So what I always tell people is a lot of times sixes can be like a pressure cooker. So the anxieties or all the possibilities are kind of building up inside and they just need a safe place to kind of let the steam out. Now it doesn't mean it has to be like your. You know, going on and on, or it doesn't have to be, you know, like anything major, but if you just have this ability to like, let out that steam or the anxiety, or just make it known a little here and a little there, it kind of keeps the pressure from building and building and building. And to have someone go, yeah, let me help you with that. Like, let me help you dispense some of that anxiety, but not shame you or, or condemn you or make you feel a lot of times sixes feel crazy. So you don't feel crazy just being like, yeah, I can totally see how you feel like that. It's like, Oh yeah. And then you just move on.
Jamie:Yep, and then you just move on. I also had to tell him sometimes I start our conversations again. He's at Enneagram three I started our conversations like this. Hey, I want to talk to you about something But I actually don't need you to fix it. Like I don't need you to fix it I don't even need to know what you think. I just need to say it out loud and he's like, okay now I know what my role is. I'm not gonna fix this because he's a fixer and I don't often want to be fixed I just want to be listened to.
Beth:And you're setting them up for success. I mean, he appreciates that he doesn't want to know that he failed and how he was quote unquote helping you. So he's still helping you. He's just doing it by listening.
Jamie:exactly. Right. That's that's, this is our marriage advice from Beth and Jeff and Jamie and Aaron set your spouse up for success as much as you can.
Beth:Well, I mean, like, so Jeff and I, you know, we are classic dance and we call it the dance because it's like this infinity loop and your internal, um, core motivations get ignited, whether you realize or not, and then you outwardly do something and then it lands on the other person a certain way with their core motivations and then they do something around and around you go. And so Jeff usually, you know, six is that they've got a lot of. Intensity at times nines. Don't really appreciate intensity. It feels like conflict or tension. So whenever he's like, even if he's just talking about something passionately, I'm like wanting to like tamp it down a little. And so, but if it's tension between us or he's unsure or unclear, then I'm like, Oh, this is conflict. And so I will shut down. Like maybe in front of him, like more physically, like withdrawing, he can feel it. Well, that only said to him, and I didn't realize this for a long time. It only said to him, I'm out of here. You're not worth it. We're not worth it. And then he would press in harder and, you know, almost get bigger because he's feeling the anxiety of abandonment. And he's like, This is scary. So I've got to like grab her in this, you know, the relationship and like, we've got to fix this now and have security. I only felt like that was more conflict. So I'm like, physically hightailing it out, you know? And once I understood how that landed on him, what I was doing now, I can go, Oh, okay. Yeah. So as a nine, it can get really big and overwhelming for me. I can't think straight, so it's probably not best to have a conversation in that moment. Um, but what I can do is say, Hey, I'm feeling really overwhelmed. I can tell I'm shutting down. Like I can't even process right now. I'm all in with us, like we're okay, but I need some space to think about this. Can I go spend 15, 30 minutes processing, calming down internally and coming back and us having the conversation? He was like, yeah, that would be great. Now he would rather do it immediately. To feel the security immediately, but he also understands how I am. And, but he, I will say he did say, but Beth, sometimes you don't come back and talk about it. And I was like, I was like, okay, fair enough. Fair
Jamie:like, okay, I'm trying to bail, but you caught me.
Beth:Yeah. So I'm like, fair enough. Okay. Yes. I, if I ask for that permission to step away, I understand that I'm also saying I will come back and we will talk about it. Um, and so just by having those simple conversations of, I see you. I see your need, but I also have this need. Can you understand my side? It helped. It is a game changer. And that's what the Enneagram is so powerful because we see and react to the world so differently. And so we got to come alongside each other and support each other in the way they want it to. Now, here's the thing, and you've probably seen this with yourself and, um, and Aaron is we try to address the other person the way we want people to address us.
Jamie:Right.
Beth:That doesn't work. It's like, like I, I know a lot of people that are going to be surprised. I don't really need flowers. Like especially when we had like zero money, you know, as a pastor's family, just him getting flowers for me only felt like, okay, you've just spent like,
Jamie:Yeah, we could have bought, like, spaghetti sauce and spaghetti and garlic bread for the kids.
Beth:And I'm like a very practical person. And so I was like, I don't need that, you know, and so for, but for, so people will give to the other person what they're really wanting. And what's, what's funny is he loved flowers. He loved having like a beautiful, like flower display in our house.
Jamie:Yeah.
Beth:And I'm like, Oh, okay. Well, that makes so much more sense of why you were doing that for me. And so a lot of times, if we can just take note of what the other person is doing towards us, that especially could probably be rubbing us wrong is what are they actually trying to communicate? They're actually communicating what they're wanting in return. And then having those conversations with one another can be life changing in your marriage, or it could even be with your kids or your coworkers.
Jamie:thinking about kids because one of our, I'm not really a hundred percent sure what all of our kids were, they would fall on the Enneagram scale, but we have a pretty good idea that one of them is probably an Enneagram nine. And I noticed that sometimes I'll say what I think is just a very blanket statement, like, but why haven't you done something? And I literally, I'm not angry. I'm not mad. There's no consequence. Like you're an adult really kind of, and, but I can see that it makes them feel like I'm attacking them. And so I
Beth:even when you said that, my heart went, Oh,
Jamie:So I can see myself with this child as we grow into our adult parenting stage of life with, with them, like having more conversations. And I think that like, he would maybe even need to be aware that that does bother him for him even to vocalize that. You know what I mean? And so he may not even be mature enough to know that, but I can kind of see it happening. Even as you were saying that with you and Jeff, I was like, man, that kind of sounds like my relationship with one of my kids and I can see how we can grow together as parent adult child over the years. But I want to ask you something. Aaron's an Enneagram three and whenever we have conflict, it sounds like you and Jeff, but he's a three and you're a nine. Like I kind of like want to resolve this and he like he needs space. He needs to get away. Is that, is that common for Enneagram threes as well?
Beth:Well, yeah, I mean, it can be, but it's gonna be for different reasons. So. Of course we would obviously have to ask Aaron, so later you'll have to ask him, um, if these things are true, but where I would be thinking is as an Enneagram 3, if you're pressing in of fixing a problem in the relationship, I would imagine that's landing on him as he's doing something wrong, he's failing, he's being exposed, which are huge Red flags for the, that's like core fears for the, for the three, if you were to say, you know, like, Hey, babe, you know, this is going really well, this is going really well. And I'm so appreciative of this, but I've kind of felt some tension over here. I'm seeing something's happening over here. I'd really love to discuss, cause I know you've got some really great ideas. And usually when we sit down and like talk things through, we kind of come to a conclusion together. So is that something we can talk about in this area? You'd probably be like, yeah, like, let's go for it. Cause like he is brought into it as not a person who's made a mistake or is being exposed as failing, but as he can contribute alongside with you. And like, you guys can figure this out together. Cause they're all about efficiencies, figuring things out, taking it to the next level. So if you brought it in that light, he probably wouldn't want to hightail it out. Does
Jamie:This is, Oh, a hundred percent. And I have learned 22 years how to bring stuff to the table. You know, you figure it out. You're like, okay, the only way we're going to talk about this and get down to it is if I, I got to kind of come in the back way, Beth, I got to kind of
Beth:you do.
Jamie:this way. I got to tell him how awesome he is for a couple of minutes. This is so awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. And by the way, here's a problem I see,
Beth:Yes,
Jamie:exactly what I've learned. Yep. Okay. There
Beth:And, but Jeff has to do that with me, but it's again, for different reasons, because as the nine, I'm trying to make everyone happy because if you're happy, then I can be happy. Well, guess what? As a mom, a wife, a human being, no one's ever happy. So the nines could never be happy. So that's just a, that's a false notion, right? But so I'm constantly. In my less healthy space, I'm constantly trying to make Jeff happy, merge with him, agree with him, all those things. So if he disagrees or wants to point out something wrong, I'm thinking, well, how did I miss that or fail? Or how didn't I merge or understand him well enough? Cause nines are so good about knowing everyone's perspective and kind of lining with it. So then I feel like I failed, but it's from a nine's viewpoint, not the three viewpoint. So when he says things like, Hey, I love your viewpoints or. you know, the thing that you brought to the marriage, you know, a month ago that we've worked on has worked out so well. Can we collaborate? It's like, Oh, I can assert my presence. I have a viewpoint that you hear and it matters to you. That's how the nine needs to hear it. So it really is true. Like we have to, What, you know, take off your lens, your, your glasses, the way you see the world and put their lens on, and it can feel inauthentic for us and our type, but we're actually speaking their language. And this is, you know, what I, my brother worked for the Jesus film project with, um, campus crusade. So this was back in the nineties. So what he would do is he would go travel to the countries. Cause he went to Berkeley college of music. So you had all these like engineering. Uh, degrees. He would go to the country and he would record the language. So the mother tongue, the dialect for that specific group, he would record it. Then he would bring it back and he would try his best. And of course this is back in the nineties. I'm sure you could do it with AI in seconds, but he would try to sync. Yeah. The, the lips with everything so that when they brought it back to the field, um, to the mission field that it would, the people would really think that they're speaking their language. Well, the reason why I bring that up is that that is. The work that I feel like we can, can, and get to do with the Enneagram, meaning my husband speaks a completely different language than I do. But if I can learn his language or the way he sees the world, the way he interprets it and reacts to it and speak, what is my truth, but through his language, the way he would want to hear it, it will change the dynamics of our relationship. That is super easy said super hard to do.
Jamie:Yeah, totally. You know, it makes me think of if we're going to take this even deeper spiritually as we think about the gospels, you know, they were written to a specific group and some of them had the same stories, but they tell it differently or they leave something out or they include something. You're like, why would they say that? And then really smart people will tell you. Well, they said it because the Jewish community would have understood that, or, you know, these people would have understood it or the Romans. And so I just think that's so life is like we're constantly, how do we take the truth of the gospel, which doesn't change the truth of scripture never changes, but then how do we make it fit for this? Community this native tongue this whatever it might be. You're not watering it down. You're not lessening it You're not making it something that it's not and that's what you're saying is even in relationships is how do we? Say the same thing we I have four kids same thing I have to think how do I say it to this kid so they don't think this or this kid and that's kind of Exhausting, you know to think about but that's what we do all the time. And so it makes sense
Beth:Yeah. And it's the same with your employees. It's the same with your friends, you know, it, and yeah, it is, it is exhausting, but it's important, you know, and, and what we do at your Enneagram coach. So when we do write our content, our material, so we each have a core longing, a message, our hearts longing to hear. And to me, that is the key, the gateway, whatever you want to call it into how the gospel transforms us, because we are so second. Uh, or Jeremiah two 13 talks about how God says you have forsaken me the spring of living water. And you, so let's say the spring of living water is right here next to you on the left hand side. I'm just saying that for the, uh, the hearing audience. So if you're watching. YouTube, you're seeing me. So Christ is the spring of living water, but we've turned, he says, you've forsaken me and you've turned and you've dug cisterns, cisterns that are broken and cannot hold water or cistern was back in the day, like a well, but a well that didn't have fresh water in it. You had to put water in it. And that was for inside the city. When they had to fortify it, they had to put water in it. Well. Everyone knows that if water sits there, it gets stagnant and it can get gross, and then animals are trying to drink out of it. I mean, it's just, it's not ideal, but not only that, it's broken. So think of a pool that has a broken lining. It's not going to work. So we keep doing these things, trying to Fill our lives with these messages that we're longing for, but they don't work. So what we need to do is turn back to the spring of living water and get the real source, the real message. So, you know, for the type one, they long to hear you are good. The two longs to hear you are wanted and loved. The three longs to hear you are loved for simply being you, the four longs to hear. Uh, you are loved and known for who you are. The five, uh, longs to hear your needs are not a problem. The six for you is to hear you are safe and secure. The seven longs to hear, uh, Whoa, hold on. I got stuck on six cause I was looking at you. Um, this, Oh, you're, you're, uh, you will be taken care of. And then the eight longs to hear you will not be betrayed and the nines long to hear your presence matters. So the reason why I'm saying all that for everyone that's listening is that that is where life transformation begins. When you understand that the gospel message speaks that one to all of us. You know, as a whole, right. But that each of us are longing for our message to be literally spoken to our heart. And Christ is saying to us, these are truths. So for you, you are safe and secure in him. He will bring you. The clarity you need in a chaotic world, the Holy Spirit is with you. Yes, we don't know like that gunman, we don't, he could have showed up at the movie theater,
Jamie:hmm.
Beth:but ultimately you were safe and secure in your relationship with Christ
Jamie:And where I've grown, Beth, sorry to interrupt you, is that that physical safety is not guaranteed and that's where my fear comes from being physically unsafe sometimes, but the safety of the Lord Protecting me and being with me. It overrides it. So I can now say literally if that gunman would have shown up and he would have done some terrible damage in that movie theater that would have affected me and my family, my ultimate safety is still secure.
Beth:Exactly.
Jamie:And that brings me peace.
Beth:and that is what we're constantly doing here at yearning gram coach is helping people to understand what you are constantly striving for.
Jamie:Hmm. Mm
Beth:The question is, are you going to the spring of living water that always in forever is there for you to drink as much as you want, or are you turning away and digging your own cisterns and that those. Those systems are like, like my husband is one of my sisters, like, okay, Jeff, I want you to tell me my presence matters. Okay. Children, I want you to tell me my presence matters. Okay. Community or
Jamie:Yeah.
Beth:Well, they can give me a little thimble full of water, but ultimately my sister and these systems are broken and cannot fulfill. So. I have to go, Hey, thanks for trying, but Jesus, I need you. and and that's where, when you were on your walk or when you're telling your husband, these things, it's good to share with people what we're experiencing, what we're seeing, but ultimately we have to do our own self care, but that self care, which according, you know, that seems like what your book is going to is in God's truth. So that's, yeah. So why can't I get it together? Which says, um. To kick or kick unrealistic expectations to the curb and rest in God's truth. And that is exactly what your book is like aiming towards. And so when, what I'm hoping is that when people read your book and especially this audience, that they will keep in mind their type.
Jamie:Mm hmm.
Beth:So. I need God's truth. We all need God's truth. So all the nine types are, God is giving us all the messages, right? But there's something that I feel like I'm missing that I have to go find it somewhere. And I'm finding it in false places. The truth always comes from God, from Christ, not our community, not our culture, not all the shoulds and odds and things that they say, but from his truth. And it seems like that's exactly. Why your book is going to be so powerful in the lives of others, because this is what people need to hear. And
Jamie:broken cisterns. And the world offers us a lot of ways to get what we think is the living water. And It actually might satisfy our thirst for a moment. Like you said, like you can feel that encouragement. Um, but it is not ultimately what can sustain us. And I think that when we're chasing things that can't ultimately sustain us, we often feel out of control and we often like we can't get it together. Because
Beth:then we double down.
Jamie:and then we double down and keep trying harder and harder. And then when you have a moment when you're like, you know what, I think I'm going to chase something different. I think I'm going to chase God. I think I'm going to chase what he wants from me. You do have this sense of change. Now, the truth is we're humans. We sin. We'll do this until the day we die. And so I think we're going to be fighting these battles forever. But my thing is how hard are we fighting? And honestly, once you chart, once you desire holiness, you are more, you are concerned with your unholiness. You want holiness. And so your life starts to change, which is good news.
Beth:I also think what God is really requiring of us isn't the, it is definitely becoming holy, but I think where that comes from is not the striving in being holy. It's the surrendering and depending on him. When we surrender and depend on him, he then does the work in and through us. Um, and I feel like my older age, that's what I'm recognizing more and more. It's like. Oh, man, I tried again to do it my own strength that way. Hold on. Let me, let me go back to surrendering again. Let me go back to depending on him again. And then he fills us up again. It's that spring of living water. He fills us up. So I have a quick question for you before we head out. Okay. So. We both talked about in our younger years and how we were thinking, what would you say to that 25, 35 year old that's listening? Like what, what encouragement would you give to them? That is kind of an overflow of your book.
Jamie:Um, I'm actually going to, if you don't mind, share a story that's in the book and it's the same question. I was talking to a counselor and I was just kind of lamenting about parenting. Parenting is, it's a thing that's heavy on my heart these days. I'm launching kids into the world and so you're, I'm kind of like, have I done all I need God and all these things. And so I was lamenting to my counselor like, man, Parenting for small kids was really hard for me. I was tired. I don't know if I did it right. I would do a lot of things differently now that I'm 45, you know, like having a kid at 45 versus a kid at 30 is a big difference in our maturity and the things we know. And so I was lamenting, I was kind of crying and I was like, I just don't know. It was really hard. And so he did this exercise with me and he pulled up this empty chair next to me. And he said, I want you to imagine that. Jamie at 32 is sitting in this chair. So, you know, 13 years ago, 12 years ago, parenting for young kids, really feeling out of control and anxious and tired. He said, imagine that's her and look at her. And so I, I looked at this empty chair and imagined my 32 year old self. And he said, what would you say to her? And I said, with tears, like streaming down my face, I S I said, you're doing the best, you know, how. You're doing a really good job and this is really hard work, but you're showing up every day. You're loving your kids with everything you have. And so I say that to say, I look back on myself and I don't think there's a year that's gone by that we wouldn't say, Oh, I would do this differently. I mean, I would do things differently. I did last week. You know what I mean? Like that's what looking backwards does, but I also want to be kind to myself. I want to be compassionate to myself. I want to not look at that 31 year old and hold her to a standard she could have never met. Right. Right. and, um, so I wanna remember that today to myself as well. And so that's what I would say to that younger self. Mm-Hmm.
Beth:And wouldn't you say, now being the age you are, because I know this is how I feel, I, the more I surrender and depend on Christ, because I did the same, I showed up as best I could for my kids. And I had my kids, both of them by the age of 25. Eeks.
Jamie:Yeah.
Beth:And I, I literally, I can tell you, I did the best that I could. And now they're in their mid or their early twenties and you know, they're learning things that we missed and we didn't get right. And you know, sometimes I could feel my older, younger self want to shame myself or put myself down. And, but now I'm like, you know what? I can go. You're right. I missed
Jamie:Mm-Hmm.
Beth:I'm really sorry. That has an impact on you. Will you, will you forgive what I didn't know? And can we talk about it? Can I hear more of your story and not make it this big accusation that I intentionally did something wrong or admit, or I didn't try. But give them space to say their story, to say what was missed, to be okay, that there's sorrow and grief and the things that now they have to learn and they have to journey in. And it's easier said out loud than actually doing in the moment, but that, that helps both sides to agree that we're on this side of heaven and that both of us need Christ.
Jamie:Totally. And I think we can do that with every relationship. You've been married as long as I've been married. And I think we can look back and be like, well, there were some things I did 10, 15, 20 years ago that maybe weren't the best practices in a marriage. And, but here we are, and we can both look at each other and say, we didn't know what we didn't know. Um, and we treat each other differently. We're kinder. I watched my words more, that kind of thing. And.
Beth:Yeah.
Jamie:You know, I mean, I think that that's just a part of, it's a part of life and maturity. And I can look at my own parents and say that my story, what I hold to be true for Jamie Ivey, is that there are things that wounded me from my parents.
Beth:Yep.
Jamie:Parents are not bad people. They're some of my favorite people in the whole world. And I love them and they did the best they can. And still it's true that I have wounds from my childhood. And so I just think none of us show up to this world as adults without wounds. And we get to journey together with each other. And I love what you said about walking with your kids and having conversations about it. That's what I can hope for. Is that the wounds that show up and they will. That we can be kind and compassionate and talk about them.
Beth:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Jamie, please tell everyone where they can find the book, find you and all the things.
Jamie:Oh, you're kind. Well, Jamie, ivy. com really is where you could find everything, but if you're a podcast listener, come listen to the happy hour. I love it. It's a great show. Uh, also all of our shows are on YouTube. If you're watching as well, just look over there. So, and the book, why can't I get it together? It actually comes out on the 13th. So pretty soon after this,
Beth:Yeah, exactly. So, um, everyone pre order, go get your book. Um, you've got some pre order bonuses
Jamie:I do.
Beth:People can go to jamieiv. com and investigate what all those goodies are. Um, but again, February 13th is the book release. So go get your book now. And again, Jamie, it's so good to see you again. I love our conversations together. They're so rich and meaningful and deep.
Jamie:Same. Thanks, Beth.
Beth:Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that rich conversation with Jamie, just as much as I did. And for those of you that are like, wow, I would love to know how I can understand my internal world from my Enneagram type to understand what is getting me off course. And why I keep thinking, why can't I get this right? Or why can't I understand myself? Well, If that is you, then get one of our certified Enneagram coaches at my Enneagram coach. com. But if you've grown a lot with Enneagram and you want to help bless others to understand themselves better than become an Enneagram coach. And to start that process, go to your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course and take our free mini course to see if that's a great fit for you. Well, just remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it's the gospel that transforms us. We'll see you next time at your Enneagram coach the podcast.