Cycling Over Sixty

DeSalvo Custom Bicycles

• Tom Butler • Season 4 • Episode 7

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Host Tom Butler continues to dissect his ongoing struggle with a stubborn Achilles tendon injury and shares the strategies he's using to manage recovery while wanting to get back to doing longer rides. For anyone dealing with persistent injuries, Tom's discussion offers both solidarity and practical insights.

Then, Tom welcomes Mike DeSalvo of DeSalvo Custom Bicycles for a conversation about the art and science of custom frame building. With decades of experience crafting bicycles, Mike reveals his collaborative process for creating bikes that truly fit each cyclist's unique body, riding style, and goals. From initial measurements to the final product, Mike explains what sets a custom-built frame apart and how the right fit can transform your riding experience.

Whether you're curious about custom bicycles, dealing with your own injury challenges, or simply want to hear from a master craftsman who's dedicated his career to perfecting the ride, this episode delivers an inside look you won't want to miss.

LINKS

Kaleigh Cohen Strength: youtu.be/7_Gmj7awnWY?si=IV60L6d6a4sVzbKa

and at: kaleighcohen.com

DeSalvo Custom Bikes: https://www.desalvocycles.com

U.S. Bicycle Production and Assembly Act: www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3904

Here is your invitation to join a great launch party for the summer cycling season.  Join the Cycling Over Sixty Tour de Cure PNW team.  Whether you are local or come out to experience cycling in the great Northwest, I would love to have you help make this a ride with a purpose.  And to send a message that the joy of cycling is here for everyone, regardless of age. Go to tour.diabetes.org/teams/CO60

I know it is early but we are looking to get the Cycling Over Sixty Tour de Cure team together as soon as possible. You can find all the info at tour.diabetes.org/teams/CO60

Thank you Konvergent Wealth for sponsoring CO60 Jerseys for the Tour de Cure!

Become a member of the Cycling Over Sixty Strava Club! www.strava.com/clubs/CyclingOverSixty

Cycling Over Sixty is also on Zwift. Look for our Zwift club!

Please send comments, questions and especially content suggestions to me at info@cyclingoversixty.com

Follow and comment on Cycling Over Sixty on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cyclingoversixty/

Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com

Tom Butler:

Just when I think it's getting better, something happens and there's a setback. Recently I was on the roof putting up Christmas lights and I really aggravated my Achilles. The bad thing is that when I was on the roof, I didn't notice that it was getting stressed. It was only later, after not moving for a while, that the paint set in. Because of my Achilles problem, I've been afraid to go on long rides. I feel like if I get a long way from home and it flares up, I'll do a lot of damage because I need to ride back home. I'm actively seeking strategies for dealing with the issue. I know it's going to take a long time to heal. And I can't continue to avoid long rides, so I need to find a different way of rehabbing the tendon while still riding. One of the things I'm going to try is going to stay seated for a while. And see if that helps. I don't spend a lot of time standing up on the pedals, but I do like to go hard out of the paddle for short climbs just to stretch my legs in a different way. I hope by staying seated and really focusing on good pedaling techniques that that will help relieve some stress. The one thing that I've really found to be helpful is using KT tape. Following instructions from the KT Achilles YouTube video, I run a strip from midway on the bottom of my foot to a little way up my calf. Then I put two half strips perpendicular to the full strip, one below the ankle and one above. That seems like it really helps to support the tendon. For some reason, I didn't think the tape up before I got on the roof, and that was a big mistake. There are different kinds of KT tape. Our family has always used the original cotton tape. But recently I purchased the KT tape pro. They say it is ultra-breathable synthetic fabric, and I was attracted to that. But I don't think that it stays on as well as the cotton. Now there are a ton of other types of KT tape, but I don't know anything about them. I have a really hard time putting the tape on myself. I don't seem to get it tensioned right. Kelly usually helps me and I consider her a pro at it. But when she's not around, it is a problem. I started looking for a different solution to the tape. I started looking for a sleeve that I can put on my foot instead of the tape. I ended up purchasing a ProTech Athletic Achilles sleeve from RDI. I haven't tried it out yet, but I'm hoping that wearing the sleeve will give the same benefit as a KT tape. If it's not, I'm going to be walking around at a conference for three days. I'm worried I'm going to be repeatedly aggravating my Achilles at the conference if I don't have something. So either the sleeve works, I'm going to have to get better at applying the KT tape myself. Of course, the big issue here remains my lack of flexibility. I've just got to get really serious about changing that limitation. By looking back at habit change strategies I've talked about that have worked for me before, I know I need a routine. So here it is. I eat at 7 a.m. every morning, spend 20 minutes on the trainer. That burns off breakfast and warms up my muscles. And then I do a 15-minute flexibility session. So I've done this four out of the last six days, but I haven't always managed to get it in right at breakfast time. So I'd give myself a score of 80 out of 100 so far. I'll put a link to the video that I'm doing in the show notes. It's a 15-minute post-workout stretch by Kayleigh Cohen. But as far as I can see, there are a ton of good options out there. As I expected, I'm not even close to being able to do the stretching like instructed. But I'm going to keep working at it. In a recent episode, I mentioned that I wish there was some measurement that I could do around flexibility because numbers really do help motivate me. I'm still working on that, but I do have some ideas. A couple other items I want to update you on. First, I picked up a new bike. This is my gravel, touring, and cycle crest bike. You might be wondering exactly how it can be all those things. I'll answer that question in a future podcast. If you're curious to see the bike, you can find a new bike day video on the CyclingOver60 Instagram. I'm going to be breaking down everything about the bike. And I'm going to do something new and make a video about it. You'll be able to find the video on YouTube or listen to the audio where you normally get your episodes. The Cyclingover60 YouTube is at CyclingOver60. You need to include the at sign when you're searching. And finally, I have a new Cyclingverse collaboration that I'm extremely excited about. I can't say anything about it right now, but I believe my vision of having Cyclingver60 be a big help to people wanting to get or stay fit through cycling is going to be really improved by this collaboration. There is a lot to work through to bring this together. So stay tuned. She talked about her bike and Mike D'Asalvo, who made it for her. She recommended that I bring Mike on the podcast, so I reached out to him. At that time, Mike let me know that he was slammed with a bikes to make, but to try him again later. So I did reach out again, and I feel really fortunate to be able to have him share about his years as a frame maker here on the podcast. Just a heads up, I was recording the conversation over the phone, which is different for me. However, I think the quality doesn't really get in the way. Here is our conversation. I have the pleasure of being joined by Mike DeSalvo today. Thanks for coming on, Mike.

Mike DeSalvo:

Thank you for having me.

Tom Butler:

I love the art and science of the bicycle. I I see it as just this great machine. It's so inspiring. And uh so I'm really excited to have a conversation with you as the owner of DeSalvo Custom Bikes. Yeah. So I'm going to start out with a question that I like to start out with. And what is your earliest memory of the bicycle?

Mike DeSalvo:

Probably my earliest memory was as a kid. I grew up in rural Northern California, really rural, just almost in the Oregon border. And we all rode, you know, that was in the late 70s and 80s, and we rode our 20-inch bikes, you know, our BMX bikes. And we we were on those frame things from sunup to sundown, and we were jumping them and just having a ball. So that was where everything started for me for sure.

Tom Butler:

To me, you know, that picture of kids being outdoors on BMX bikes, I just think that's such a great picture. I like to see that, and I like to see some of the bike tracks that are springing up around.

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah, and unfortunately, I mean I have kids and it's these next generations, it's a different world. You know, we were we lived to just get up and get on our bikes every day, you know, and then of course we didn't want to come in at night, you know. So and you know, whether it was and and I can remember riding our BMX bikes. Oh, I had a friend that lived a ways out of school, so it was really novel for us to ride the three or four miles to school some mornings and you know, and even bigger trips, you know, seven, eight, ten miles on BMX bikes, you know. We didn't know any better, so we just did it.

Tom Butler:

Right. My understanding is that you've been building custom bikes in Ashland, Oregon for over twenty years now. Is that correct?

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah, so I'm sneaking up February of nineteen ninety-nine was when I built my first bike. So I'm sneaking up on twenty-seven years. So yeah, it's pretty it's been a wild ride. I was twenty-six when I started, I'm fifty-three now, so it's yeah, it's it's been a long one already.

Tom Butler:

Looking back, what first drew you to frame building?

Mike DeSalvo:

So, I mean, I guess I would take even a step farther back, and I I'm one of those kids that I mean I kind of w grew up in the bike shop when I was the freshman in high school when I first got my job at a job in the bike shop, and you know, it was fixing flat tires and sweeping the floor and things like that. So I worked in a bike shop all through high school. We had a work experience program where you know you could work out go to school half of the day, and basically working was your elective. So I did that. And then after I graduated, I took classes at United Bicycle Institute and I spent some time in Colorado and continued to work in bike shops. You know, I think that that time that was the early nineties and the mountain bike boom was happening, and I was pretty smitten, you know, with the Ritchie bikes and the Bontragers and the Breesers and all those guys that were kind of in that that forefront of mountain biking. So I think that that was the you know the thing that really, you know, inspired me. And I and I suppose the other thing too, I can still remember being in the bike shop in the eighties and getting the Torelli catalogs and seeing those pictures of all the you know, those little Italian factories and you could, you know, you could buy a bike and you know the the old Italian guy supposedly are hopefully made it for you, you know. Just the idea of making something, I suppose, and you know, learning that it it it happened, you know, there were people doing it.

Tom Butler:

You talked about mountain biking, seems like that area of the world where you were growing up w was a place that people were latching onto it pretty early on.

Mike DeSalvo:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that was it was when I worked in the bike shop in the 80s, you know, we were we were selling mountain bikes, and then of course that late 80s, early nineties time period was when the absolute you know, mountain bike boom, you kind of felt like everybody back then, you know, you bought a mountain bike and two but two weeks later you went to a race kind of a thing, you know. It was just what we all did. So it was a you know a pretty special time for sure.

Tom Butler:

Do you have a count for how many bikes you build?

Mike DeSalvo:

I don't. So little you know, under my name, I'm around 2,000. But I've had I've also done, you know, it's been a number of years ago, but and and it it's a it's a little convoluted, right? Because you know, do you count if you welded it, or you know, that's only part of the process. But in the early days of the speedwagon bikes that the guys that put vanilla did, I ri welded those for five years, which was you know, probably welding into another couple hundred bikes there. And over the years, not much anymore, but I've done some that get sold under, you know, kind of other names because I don't do much of that anymore. So it's funny that you asked that when I was I was just looking the other day. When I when I started, I was building a lot of steel bikes and it was a lot of a handful of mountain bikes, but a lot for some reason a lot of road bikes too. And you know, I have to say that road bikes of 15 years ago were a whole lot easier to build because we didn't have things like disc brakes and all the other stuff that goes along with it. It was kind of like, you know, we'll get your size dialed in your color and and we don't have to worry about are you going bike packing or putting them bags or how many water bottles and all that kind of thing. You know, there were some years back there. I never broke 150. There was one year where I broke probably like 148 or 149, but I did a lot of years where I was building about a hundred bikes a year as well. And then what happened to me, oh, somewhere around 2010 or 12, is that things really started to shift to where it got turned into all titanium. And titanium bikes are a process that just takes a lot longer. So now I've the numbers have gone down. And then I'm kind of settled into this place of about a bike a week as kind of a happy spot, you know, with as I said, with the more complicated bikes and most of them being titanium. And things have also shifted to I used to sell through bike shops and dealers, and now I sell direct, so they usually the bikes are usually complete. So, you know, it just it the whole process takes a little longer.

Tom Butler:

Wondering if there are some shifts if you look back over the years that are key shifts in frame building that ushered in a different way of doing it, or maybe radically changed it or fundamentally changed it. Are are have those shifts happened since you've been involved?

Mike DeSalvo:

Well, I mean, I think that they have, but what are the never-ending battles is operating like I do and so many of my friends that are just one-person operations? You know, a lot of times it's hard to it's uh it you know, it's technically hard to act like a larger company that has a production line, if that makes sense. So, I mean, of course things have changed, standard have changed, things are constantly evolving. But the first handful of bikes I built were mostly lugged and brazed, and then quickly I moved into TIG welding, and so now everything is I do is is TIG welded, and that's kind of what works for me. I mean, the example might be like, you know, in titanium we're seeing a lot of sort of 3D printed parts right now. And it's not to say there's anything wrong with them, it's not necessarily my style yet. I won't say never, but you know, so far it just hasn't been something that has really appealed to me. I mean, I suppose the biggest one would probably be the the carbon bikes, right? They you know, as that really started to get popular, I don't even know what was it, probably if in my sphere it was probably what around twenty. I mean, we used to in my early days we did bikes that were, you know, steel front ends with carbon rear ends, and then we did that for a few years, it seemed like then all of a sudden there were these full carbon bikes, and it was like, you know, if you want carbon, just go get a carbon bike. You know, it doesn't make any sense to kind of mix and match, really, per se. So, you know, I think the carbon bikes would be the the biggest one that I would point out as changed things probably in the last say 20, 25 years.

Tom Butler:

Well, I have a carbon fiber bike, and but sometimes I wonder about it. It feels to me like you look at what professionals ride and what they're doing is so different than what I'm doing. It's almost like it's a different, you know, the bike can be a totally different machine than the machine that I I need, and I see carbon fiber maybe as being part of that. You know, if I'm getting a new bike at the end of every season or sooner, you know, then carbon maybe makes sense to me, but I but I don't know that I totally feel like that's the case for me now.

Mike DeSalvo:

I wouldn't badmouth any of the materials, they all do something well, right? I mean what carbon does really well is it's super light. It is interesting to just watch the kind of the evolution and how things change. And ultimately I think the biggest thing is what do you, you know, what do you want out of your ride? I mean, if you're a racer and you're looking to save every every last sec second, you know, probably the carbon is gonna make sense. But you know, what I find is that a lot of people that come to me for, you know, usually titanium bikes these days, but even steel bikes are, you know, maybe somebody an enthusiast that's looking for kind of an all-day comfort thing. I mean, there was a at a f a funny time funny point in time for me, about 2010 or eleven or twelve, somewhere in there, I had this when the when the shift to a lot of titanium bikes really happened to me, I started getting a lot of these folks that wanted they wanted titanium bikes to train on and they were saving their carbon bikes for race day, you know. And I don't know whether that's needed or necessary, but it was an interesting thing that they were they felt they felt felt that they wanted to do. So But yeah, I think uh, you know, they're at the end of the day everything has a a dramatically different ride quality and potentially a lifespan and all that kind of thing. So I think the important thing for folks is just to, you know, decide what works for 'em.

Tom Butler:

You mentioned TIG welding, yeah. And I am not a welder. And I hear the term TIG welding a lot. First of all, are you still teaching TIG welding?

Mike DeSalvo:

I uh so I was my time in teaching at United Bicycle Institute ended what was it? I think it was in 21 or 22 when they unfortunately after after uh after COVID, they just the the frame building classes didn't survive at U at UBI, so they they kind of shut those down. So for the last years I have not officially been teaching frame building and or welding. But although there's a a new get a new folks starting up up in Portland firsthand frame building, and they we've been in contact, it'll be interesting to see if we get back to doing some of it up there. But yeah, so I did basically what my history there was is that I in 99 and and you know, by the way, it was at UBI. So I went to work at UBI in 99 as a mechanics instructor, and then it was there. They were also teaching frame building classes at the time, so it made sense, you know, that the mechanics instructors could also help out in that in those classes. And so it was during that time when I really, you know, started building bikes. And you know, for me after I built my first one, it was like every every night and weekend I just couldn't get enough, you know. I just the next one, the next one, the next one. And so that was when I when I learned how to weld and and specifically weld bikes. And so after a number of years of that, I don't even know, it probably wasn't until 2000, five, six, seven or eight, so I had a a bunch of years behind me that I did start really teaching and and helping out in the frame building classes at UBI, and then kind of I suppose for about the last I don't know, sixteen, eighteen-ish years, would go back to UBI f you know, a time or two a year and kind of be what they call the guest instructor. So for their TIG welding classes, both in steel and titania.

Tom Butler:

When I hear TIG welding, what should come to mind? What is it? What you know, what's it referred to? It's there are a lot of different kinds of welding.

Mike DeSalvo:

There are, yeah. And so TIG stands for tungsten inert gas. And so the tungsten is what the is a tungsten electrode, and then the inert gas that gets used is argon. So the interesting thing about TIG welding is it it's it's a little bit more of a dynamic process than the guy who might weld the bumper on your car, put a muffler on your car. Because what happens with TIG welding is you have a torch in one hand, you have filler wire in the other, and in the bicycle world, usually we're gonna have operate the power in our foot. So you've got two hands and one foot going, and you you know, this is basically it's welding, so you're essentially gonna be in the dark. So it's a skill that you know, it takes it takes most of us a while to get good at it, and I even I even maintain that I still I'm you know, the better you get, the better you want to be. So there's you know, at this point I've been welding for almost 27 years, and I still want to be better, you know. So it's just, you know, and and it's the way that most bikes are put together. Maybe a a department store bike might be MIG-welded, but yeah, most of them are gonna be TIG welded.

Tom Butler:

There's this interesting dynamic in my household. My wife is a dentist. Okay, and so we'll be watching a movie, and then she can't help but kind of comment on the teeth of the actress in the film. I'm wondering, uh you know, with the kind of experience you have, do you see welds and comment on them in your mind?

Mike DeSalvo:

Oh, of course. I mean we do, we all do, and what's what's really interesting to me, and I've got it's interesting that you say that, because just in the last in the last few weeks, I've I've been helping some guys that are making some electric motorcycles, and so I've been welding some frames for them. And you know, I would say their standard of of their visual standard is lower than what bicycle people expect. It's really interesting how you know some of the some of the best welds I think you'll ever see are gonna be on a bicycle, you know, because there's nothing else to look at, right? It's not like a car or a motorcycle or things that have other things that are gonna drive your highway. It's a bicycle frame. You know, you're gonna study it to the nth degree. And so, yeah, I mean I think we're you know, we all work really hard to do the best we can because you know we're gonna be we're gonna be pretty criticized. And then it's interesting for me too, because one of my just maybe a casual hobby or something. I I love airplanes as well, and so you You know, I've gone to air shows and you know, I've I was there an air show a couple years ago and there was an an airframe that was partially you know, it was in progress and the sta the you know the the standards were not even as good as far as the fitting, how well the tubes fit. I mean they were not nearly as good as what we require in bicycles.

Tom Butler:

I don't know how I feel about that.

Mike DeSalvo:

Well, I think that it's the I think that the reality is that it's well in bicycles we use really thin tubes, so we have to be things have to be really good. And then the other part of it, I think, is that what so many you know backseat welding critics, so to speak, for lack of a better term, don't realize is a pretty weld may or may not be a strong one. And you know, what we're you know, what what most of us are looking for is something that's even and you know, the spacing between the puddles or even all those kinds of things. So, you know, it's uh anyhow, but yeah, entertaining for sure.

Tom Butler:

Is frame building you think still capturing the imagination of younger people? Are there new builders coming on? Is it is it something that's going away? What do you think about that?

Mike DeSalvo:

That's a I mean it's a tough one for me. And I, you know, behind the scenes, so many of us builders are are really good friends. I have bike builder friends that I we talk every week, you know, and and most of them, of course, are my friends. We're a similar age. So I mean I think that there is, but I through my lens overall, I don't see, I mean, I I don't see unfortunately, I don't see a whole lot of young people that are into bikes. I mean, there's maybe little patches here and there, but I mean recently, you know, I I find myself, I mean, you know, building bikes, I would say most of it, maybe some 30 somethings, but a whole lot of 40 and 50 somethings, even sixties, and you know, and uh a year or so ago I was talking to a guy and and I looked at his order from, oh my god, you're 23 years old. I mean, I don't know what I can't tell you last time I built the bike for somebody as young as you are. That's amazing, you know. And I think bikes in general, unfortunately, I don't I I just don't see I don't see the appeal to be as broad as when I was that age, if that makes sense. You know, we do see, you know, obviously if you go to the show like at May or something, of course there's you know, there's there seems to be a lot of folks, younger folks into building bikes, but you know, I mean, how broad is that, I don't know. I mean it doesn't feel in my world, it doesn't feel very broad.

Tom Butler:

It's a really interesting dynamic. I don't have uh that much connection with younger people. But it'd be interesting to see how that trend goes for sure.

Mike DeSalvo:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I mean I I'm curious to to see where you know where it all goes. I mean I don't I think it's hard to say.

Tom Butler:

Can you talk about the differences? Yeah, and uh maybe you know what people should think about like if we're just looking at the difference between a steel frame and a titanium frame. All right, what how would you explain those differences?

Mike DeSalvo:

Well, so between steel and titanium, I mean the benefits of titanium are that it's going to be lighter and you don't have to worry about you know rust or corrosion. So it is a little more durable in that sense, but it also is gonna be in, you know, in most terms, it's gonna be somewhere around a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars more, kind of comparing apples to apples. To me, the ride at the end of the day is always gonna be the most important. But I would say out of all the materials, steel and titanium are gonna be the most similar, if that makes sense. I mean, what I tend to find is that people who like steel usually love titanium because they're looking for that kind of that resilient, springy ride, if that makes sense. You know, versus if somebody says, Oh, I'd love how a carbon bike rides, well, you know, that person might be better served by an aluminum bike. But at the end of the day, I think it's it's the ride quality and you know, potentially the budget. It's it's interesting in my little world. I used to really just play the middle a lot, you know, just say, hey, hey, you know, you gotta make your own decision, I can't really make it for you. But I I feel like at this stage of the game I've come to the point where I my two cents to most of my customers is like, you know, if the budget allows, I do think titanium is the better way to go just over the long haul.

Tom Butler:

I'm thinking you're typically working with people that have our experienced cyclists. Is that fair to say?

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah, I mean, for the most part, I would say generally enthusiasts. I mean, over the years I've done some bikes for racers, and of course, you know, I've done some well, last couple years I've done a couple step-throughs or, you know, type frames and things like that. So it's I mean, it is a mix. I would say it's kind of a mix of enthusiasts. Mixed in there somewhere is going to be some really short and some really tall people, and then, you know, people that maybe just can't find what they want off the shelf, so to speak, right in the local bike shop. Something that the big manufacturers aren't making. And I I actually have always felt or feel that more and more is that as small builders, we tend to fill those kind of gaps that, you know, maybe there's ten or twenty or a hundred bikes of with rim breaks that people want this year, but there's not ten thousand, you know, so it no, there's no big company that's gonna want to do a production run, but the small builders can pick up slack, so to speak.

Tom Butler:

I think I read someplace that you had worked with Columbus tubing. Did I get that right?

Mike DeSalvo:

Well, I've always just been a huge fan. I've never actually specifically worked with Columbus. I've always just been a b a a huge fan of their tubes, which is is kind of funny, I will admit, and it probably goes back to my, you know, when I was a kid and looking at bikes, and and you know, that's one of the questions, well, what's the tubing? And, you know, it well, it kind of matters, but maybe it does or doesn't. But we always looked for that little Columbus sticker, you know, on the bike, and we always wanted to know what was the tubing it was made out of. And then, you know, when I started making building bikes, in in my first few years, there was a lot of kind of experimentation and playing around with things and what I liked and what I didn't like, and and I use tubing from all the different manufacturers, and I just found the Columbus tubes to be my favorite. I mean, both in the shapes that they do and the the surface finish and all that kind of stuff. So I've just just been a fan of their of their tubing for sure. Uh not to say that, you know, quite honestly, at this stage of the game, it's not that that you know they all the companies, the reputable companies that are making tubes, Reynolds and Deta Chai, and those are the kind of the big ones these days, at least in the steel world, they all make good stuff. But you know, it's kind of a Chevy or Ford type situation, I suppose.

Tom Butler:

I want to talk about frame geometry a bit. I I don't have you know the ability to kind of look at a bike and say, okay, this frame is uh kind of this way, so therefore it's gonna uh maneuver this way or it's gonna be comfortable or whatever. I just don't have an innate nature of uh you know how changes in frame geometry really affect quality hand of link sure. But I how important is frame geometry when someone's uh looking at getting something to you know that they're gonna really enjoy.

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah. Well, I do I think it's gonna be important, and it's gonna be important that the you know, if somebody's working with a small builder, that the builder understands you know what you're looking for. And the what I always find myself, because the the really common thing for me is people come to me and they want the Swiss Army night, right? They want to do bike packing and I want a super fast road bike and you know, I want something to commute to work on, and you know, and it's like, well, that's not really possible. So what I find myself asking people is like, let's be honest with ourselves. And what we want to do is we want to design the bike to be you know the best we can for the way it's gonna get used most of the time, right? And then so then the other the other things just fall into place, you know. If say if it's gonna be mostly a gravel bike, but occasionally it's gonna go bikepacking, you know, we're gonna focus a little more on that. So it it is you know, ultimately it's making sure that the bike is suitable for the terrain where it's gonna be mostly used, I guess, is the way I would describe it. So, you know, once again, if it's gonna be uh used a lot on gravel and kind of more single track, you know, you want maybe want a bike that's a little more stable than say if it's a road bike that's gonna get raced in criterions where you would want something that was you know a little more responsive or easy to kind of flick around, right? And and what I would say, I think although it can be daunting, there's you know, bicycle evolution has been going on for a really long about 150 years or something. I think it's just 20, maybe not quite 150, but 125 or something. And so what we do find is that we're while we do make, we all make changes, we're still I would say there's almost like some industry norms, some ranges that we still end up working within. And and that was actually one of the first things I did when I started building bikes, was I, you know, of course I thought I was gonna reinvent the wheel, and so you know, I built bikes of lots of different designs, and you find you find you know, you quickly figure out why we are where we are as far as bike designs and angles and things like that go. So I'm I guess to kind of wrap it up, the most important thing is to know where the bike is going to get used and then the geometry kind of match that, if that makes sense.

Tom Butler:

In the three years that I've gotten back on the bike and gotten serious about spending time on the bike and making it my primary form form of recreation and activity and all that. You know, my opinion is that there isn't uh such a thing as a bike cycle. You know there uh there's more than one thing. If you're gonna really enjoy uh cycling, uh you're gonna need more than one bike. I mean if you look at mountain biking versus road biking, you know, you're obviously you know, are like okay, those are two different things, but I think there's uh in a lot of ways, there's uh different kind of cycling that require different bikes.

Mike DeSalvo:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it's and it's you know, of course, it's not that we can't do it all on one bike, but w those of us that are enthusiasts are like, well, this is fun, but it might be more fun if I had X, Y, or Z, right? You know. So no, I mean I do agree with you that if if if you're you know if you're looking to kind of enjoy a lot of different you know, a lot of different aspects of cycling, it is it is truly hard to have one bike that does it all. And that's you know, as I said, that's that's the most common request that I get. And I just have to, you know, kind of tone people down and like, you know, okay, well what we once again, what we really have to do here is is be honest with ourselves and how is the bike going to get used most of the time.

Tom Butler:

And we have to, you know, we kind of have to start with the I think it's really healthy to think about the bicycle as you know different for different applications. Because I don't want someone to look at my bike that I use on the road and and I try to get uh as much power as I can get out of that. I don't want them to look at that and think that's a bicycle because for them a bicycle might be something more of a beach cruiser with a basket on it that they're gonna ride to pick up groceries, you know. And so I think it's really healthy to think of it as different. Really different for different applications.

Mike DeSalvo:

Oh, for sure. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And well, and especially any of us that have you know bikes that are whatever enthusiast level bikes that cost a bit these days, you know, that's probably not the thing that you want to take down to get frozen yogurt with your kids or you know, get groceries, you know. So you know, not the thing you want to have locked up on the curb.

Tom Butler:

So you talked about you know figuring out how the bike is going to get used. And again, I I think it'd be different having the conversation about someone that's just brand new anti-cycling versus you know someone who's been enthusiastic for a while and uh coming in and having that conversation. I'm I'm wondering how does that conversation go? How do you stuff out like how they're gonna use the bike?

Mike DeSalvo:

So typically I would ask questions like, you know, what are your what are your normal rides? And usually that's a combination of, you know, what are the mileages, you know, what are you doing on a regular basis? You know, are you riding you know 20, 50, 100 miles, you know, what's the terrain like? A lot of the other thing for me too in this day and age, you know, for for many years now I seem to do a lot of kind of the gravel and the all-road style bikes. So a lot of that that discussion, you know, we talk about tire size because of course the rougher the the area that somebody's riding, usually the wider the tires they want to go. So all those things kind of kind of help make those decisions. And I would say, I mean, if I'm being honest, that most of the people that come to me are their enthusiasts. You know, they've they've spent way too many hours on forums and the internet and inner you know, over-researching every little detail that you could. And you know, and and and the other part of it, many of them even have had multiple custom bikes built for them before, you know. So it it is kind of pretty rare, other than the the the times that I think I would get folks that are are maybe new to cycling is the ones that might you know be some really interesting fits, right? So really small or really tall. But outside of that, I would say that I mean, uh and and the crazy thing with the internet is it's not uncommon these days for somebody to tell me about something that I haven't even heard of yet, and I've got to go look at it, you know, because whatever the new the latest, greatest thing is that somebody's looking at.

Tom Butler:

That's interesting. That's I I find that to be really interesting. Uh how about uh for older riders? Are you uh do you see a lot of older riders? And is uh how do you feel about people cycling later in life?

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah, I I do and I think it's great. And what we see is that typically when folks get older, I mean one of my jokes is that nobody ever comes to me saying they want they want a longer reach and their handlebars lower. You know what I mean? It's like we're all getting older and we all typically want a shorter reach and a more upright position. And and I think it's you know it's phenomenal that you know folks, you know, folks ride their bikes into well, I'm one of my customers on my list that I was just talking to the other day, he's 78, and getting a new bike, you know. So I think it's really, really impressive for those folks that just you know they stay on their bikes, but very much so that what we find is that the fit is all about comfort and less about you know looking like the next pro racer, you know what I mean, which in in my day was Greg Lamond or Lance Armstrong. You know, we've we've lost the we don't really care about those positions anymore. We just want to be comfortable and be able to go out and ride.

Tom Butler:

You mentioned the made bike show that happens in Portland. What I saw is that it's considered the world's largest handmade bike show with over 200 builders.

Mike DeSalvo:

Uh you're I don't know there's 200 builders. I think 200 brands is what they say.

Tom Butler:

Okay, okay.

Mike DeSalvo:

And I'm sorry, it's it's the it's the gate world that I play in, so I'm yeah Yeah, and you're down in Ashland and uh you've exhibited at MAID.

Tom Butler:

Is there something about Oregon that is like uh frame builder production stage?

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah. Well, so what I would say about shows like MADE is so years previous there was one called the North American Handmade Show, and our little industry of you know people making bikes for people, whatever we want to call it, bespoke handmade, you know, there's lots of different terms for it. It it's a pretty I mean it's a pretty niche industry, right? You know, I mean the people that are gonna want to go are are the ones that are really into it. So the made show came about as as a result of the the North American Handmade Show no longer happening, and and many of the builders there, keep in mind are not from even from the local area. Um and they'll travel. Well, I know one of the guys, Rizzo Cycles, Ruben, has traveled from Spain to come to the MAID show. So while I would say that we do have a pretty high percentage of builders here in the Pacific Northwest, you know, the a show like MAD builders will travel too just because there's not many shows for builders, if that makes sense, that highlight builders like in that right regard. So so yeah, but it you know, yeah, between, you know, I don't know, Portland, I mean Portland's still got a ton of builders, and and even down here in southern Oregon, I mean per capita we've got a bunch too. And I and I I would say I mean a lot of that is is you know can be contributed to UBI in the frame building classes that they taught for so many years. I don't I mean I out outside of that, I I guess I don't I mean uh I mean one of the stories that I've told many times is that so my early days there was uh there used to be a Seattle, the Seattle bike show. I don't know if they still do that anymore. And I used to go up to that and I was always blown away, you know, you'd get like 10,000 people or something. It was always really impressive and you know, all all facets of cycling and everything. And and and then there were some guys that did a show down in San Diego, and I thought, oh my gosh, the San Diego show, that's gonna be crazy, isn't it? I mean this the weather down there is so beautiful, and you know, it if if we if if in if in the Pacific Northwest we get, you know, in Seattle we get so many people, we're gonna get, you know, something million or hundred more down in in San Diego. And what I was quickly reminded of when I was down in San Diego was in in really talking to people that that show it was a number of years ago now, it's really slow. And it and so it was so slow that I just started talking to people. And I said, Man, you know, it's where do you guys go to ride? And they all said, Oh, you know, we have to drive here, we drive here, and we drive there. And and they were just like, Yeah, you know, we just we have no infrastructure. And I was just so reminded that, you know, so much of it, for better or worse, I think it's such a cultural thing, right? If you have infrastructure and you have good places to ride, it's almost, you know, independent of the weather to some degree, you know, we'll we'll get dressed and just go out and do it. So, you know, I I don't know what it is about our area up here that that makes us all wow and ride bikes, but I think it's wonderful.

Tom Butler:

I think it's an outdoor thing, and I I think people up here, one of the things they love about the Northwest, including me, is that it's beautiful outdoors. Exactly. And then I think it's a great point that the infrastructure is a huge factor. Yeah, and I've talked about this a number of times on the podcast that I think uh at a federal level there's a real lack of understanding of academic creation. So I think uh is so important and I think we need to figure out ways to continue to communicate the value in in having infrastructure.

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah, absolutely. Well and you know what I was kind of reminded of in Southern California too is how much they're a car culture, you know, and and that that is really kind of the predominant thing there. I mean I do I do agree with you and I I know what I find myself I mean I've actually only 20,000 people you know but even around here I I find myself riding on the road less and less. I just feel like the amount of distracted drivers is more and more you know so always looking for places to ride where that won't be an issue you know.

Tom Butler:

Yeah. If you get approached by someone, you know, maybe even a young person hopefully in their twenties or something and it says you know I just love the concept of frame building. I just really want to do it. What would you say to them about you know about it and what they might need to know or you know well what I used to tell this when I taught at UBI, you know, I guess what I was just told the students was, you know, first things first and so you know build your first bikes and you know decide if you like the process and if you do, you know, build more so you can hopefully get good at it and you know and just see where it goes from there.

Mike DeSalvo:

Because it is I mean at this stage of the game you know I've really come to grips with the fact that the bike industry is just not a place to make a lot of money. You know what I mean? It's it's a it's an industry to have a lot of fun in, but the margins are just so low across the board, whether it's a small frame builder, whether it's your local bike shop, you know, I mean it it just it's it's a tough it's a tough place to be. So I had a guy stop by recently said, well do you think this is a good business I said no it's not a good business if you don't love bikes because you know if all you're looking for is a paycheck, this is the worst thing in the world you could do. So you know but if you love bikes and and as I said you build some bikes and you get into it and I mean it's super rewarding. I I I still you know thousands of bikes into it and I still enjoy the process um before you before we got on this morning I was welding some chainstays on a titanium road bike, you know, or all road bike I guess. But and that's never gotten old for me. But running a small business is a lot of work. And I've always operated by myself so you know I think one of the things for me personally is I always had this idea that when I was younger that I would work really hard for the first X number of years and then it would kind of get easier and well that that never happens, you know. So you just you just gotta keep pushing until you can't push anymore. But yeah I think the most important thing that's gotta come first is the bikes and you know the s those skills. Because those are probably if somebody's just getting into it is the the actual skills of making the bike are going to be you know one of the big deficits from the get go. So that's a good place to start. And I honestly tell people it's you know if you have a day job and you want a really fun hobby, I mean it could be an amazing hobby, you know and that's what we see too I think you know a a a lot of the folks out there are just maybe you know maybe it's their part time job or their hobby or you know just a really serious hobby and that's great too.

Tom Butler:

Yeah I think it's like that with a lot of things that are there's an art form to it and I think that's the same thing with frame building.

Mike DeSalvo:

Mm-hmm Yeah yeah it it is I mean it's a lot of skills and I have to the thing that I feel like I've learned over the years with frame building is I mean it's similar. You know at the at the end of the day building metal bikes is metal fabrication but it is different than you know once again the guy that's gonna put the muffler on your car kind of a thing. And I and I've actually I'm always really really honest with folks too because I'm like you know I'm a one-trick pony I mean I learned how to work with metal and weld so I could build bikes. You know if you asked me to build a a metal workbench I mean I could do it but there's a whole lot of people out there that could do it probably faster and and better than I could, you know so go find those people if that's what you want to have done.

Tom Butler:

You do more than the frame you you know and you you put the bikes together. So I was interested to get your comments on this. I keep hearing that if you're gonna do one thing to upgrade your bike, put better wheels on it.

Mike DeSalvo:

Do you think that that's uh the right thing to say yeah I think that rotational weight's always a big one right and and of course you know you have to figure out where you're starting from and where you might be able to go to right but if you're you know kind of for performance something that you're gonna feel when you stomp on the pedals you know that's one of the things that of course in my world you know a lot of people do that. I mean they're counting grams in every single every every step of the way but you know a nice light set of wheels with a light set of tires you know if you can drop a pound of rotational weight that's something that you're gonna feel you know when you stomp on the on the pedals so I would say it has the potential to be a good upgrade right but you have to look at look at what you've got currently to make sure that you're gonna you're gonna lose some weight.

Tom Butler:

Right. And in my case I mean I I have a pounds that I can shed still that makes a big difference.

Mike DeSalvo:

Of course of course and you know we never nobody ever wants to hear that I I've I'm always a little entertained that some of the biggest riders seem to be the ones that that are most interested in shaving weight on the bike and it's like you know just a you know like you say it doesn't it doesn't make any sense. But I think at the end of the day we you know we're as riders right we all have different different ideas of what we're after you know are we are we chasing a shot stravosection or do we just want to go for a bike ride, you know?

Tom Butler:

Right.

Mike DeSalvo:

And it's interesting the the term I always use a lot. So when I was younger I did race a lot both on mountain bikes and road bikes and did endurance kind of racing and stuff and then you know then had kids and and I've always ridden bikes over the years but my my joke now is that my 26 year old self would be pretty embarrassed right because I don't ride with any technology at all. To me riding a bike these days I don't really care how far I go I just want to get the time to go for a bike ride. You know what I mean? Yeah and uh and I just I don't really you know I I mean I like to go out there and get a good workout and enjoy the scenery and everything but I don't I don't use any technology which drives my a lot of my friends nuts.

Tom Butler:

I was connected to you or I how I found out about you is through Erin who has one of your bikes and if people want to know more about Erin and I think her story is a great story. On May 29th of this year I did an episode with Erin where she talked about her Indian India bike trip and I just thought it was epic and you know so people can learn more about her and and that trip by listening to that episode. She is quite small.

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah she is super small yeah and that was I mean that was a pretty good example of somebody who kind of requires a custom bike I I don't I can't even I don't think she's much over five foot tall. And what what tends to happen for folks that are that are on the shorter side like that is they end you know basically the the size of bike that they fit on is kind of a kid's bike which is pretty low quality. So Erin actually was turned on to me by her local bike shop up in up in Eugene who I had worked with a number of times and and they do a lot of fitting and this is a pretty common one too is because I don't I actually very rarely meet my customers face to face. My bikes go as all over the United States but they do go all over the world. I mean I've shipped bikes to Europe and Australia and Japan and so it is it's not the most common thing you know or actually it's the least common thing that I meet people face to face. So the really common thing was that folks would go somewhere and have a fitting done maybe at a bike shop maybe at a fit studio and then provide me with that information. And I remember what was so different about with Aaron's is is as soon as I got that fit information I had to kind of do a drawing of a bike to make sure that it was even buildable if that makes sense you know because at five foot tall making the tire you know basically having all the clearances correct becomes a challenge for sure. But we were able to do it and and yeah and she took that bike and had an amazing adventure which was super cool.

Tom Butler:

I mean it's to enable someone like her you know who is getting on a bike you know later in life to to have a tool that she can really enjoy riding that's fantastic. Absolutely yeah yeah for sure and and then the other side of that is someone that's really tall. I'm wondering if you could talk to you what what are some of the considerations that go in there well usually the considerations is just are we going to have parts that that work? I mean things like is the steer tube on the fork going to be long enough or are there cranks long enough or you know those are the issues years ago I built some some bikes for professional baseball or basketball players that were all like six eight plus you know and so then it's the kind of the reverse similar issues but different than the really small folks you know and as I said early on those are those two kind of demographic so to speak are definitely a portion of what I do every yeah if you have somebody that's tall and big I'm thinking about basketball players they're you know they're athletes they're usually not you know really light people do you have to like look for special tubing? Do you do you reinforce tubing in some way? How do you manage that weight?

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah so it's you would they would right so a lighter rider is going to get smaller diameter thinner tubing and a bigger rider is going to need larger diameter thicker tubing so yeah it you know that's basically kind of the difference in you know and the other I mean on that same note you could have somebody I don't know somebody who's five foot ten who rides a 56 centimeter bike and one rider's gonna be 140 and the other's going to be 210 pounds. So although those two bikes are the same size they would be built very differently the tube diameters and wall thicknesses.

Tom Butler:

As you're looking ahead I do you see like advances that are going to impact frame building where do you see frame building going you know that's a tough one I I I I I honestly don't know.

Mike DeSalvo:

I mean I've been in the bike industry as I said since the mid eighties and I've seen you know lots of things come and go and the bike industry seems to be really good at that you know and things get recycled every 20 or 30 years or whatever. And I would say that a lot of those I would almost say that a lot of those kind of advances so to speak or changes in standards kind of drive the bikes that we build if that makes sense you know as far as how it's going to change small frame boulders I I honestly don't know. You know I'm curious to see if if they're the you know if this kind of thing will be taken up by the generations and generations and you know at the end of the day you know can they you know can they make it a business and survive on it which I don't know as things get you know more production oriented and more you know we can go on Amazon and have something here tomorrow and you know all those kinds of things that are pretty counter to what it to what the way that small builders operate.

Tom Butler:

So I just read an article that was in Bicycle Retailer. It's talking about uh legislation called U.S. Bicycle Production and Assembly Act bipartisan legislation designed to eliminate the primary cost barrier that prevents large scale bicycle assembly and manufacturing from returning to the United States to me it seems like large scale manufacturing you know it it's already gone. It's hard for me to imagine how it could come back.

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah it's the yeah it it'd be interesting to see if they could you know I mean because I've I've I haven't seen that article specifically but it's been interesting to follow a lot of that stuff lately you know and try and understand what you know where what was once produced here that's now no longer is and I mean companies like Track and Cannondale did build a lot in the US and I think um oh even Huffy did it over the years but I you know we haven't I don't think we've had large scale bicycle production I mean I still remember when I was in the bike shop in the 80s and the the Sheikis or whatever they were you know that big sticker on the top of the C tube said designed in the USA and then the little teeny one down at the bottom said made in Taiwan you know so yeah I mean of course it would be wonderful and it'd be great if it if if it happens and we can figure out how to make it happen. But it's yeah it's an interesting one to to to try and comprehend based on you know w what we know about the cost of labor and all those kinds of things. And and the other thing I you know I would say too I mean is the small builders we're doing is something a little bit different than like right than a big production facility is which is kind of one of our struggles is you know a lot of people will well you know of course you know the everybody wants something tomorrow and you know it's hard you know when you're one person doing everything one at a time and every every single one is different. You know that doesn't really lend itself to production very well and so I mean this you know hopefully the small builders can kind of operate even if we have large scale production here you know but but I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Tom Butler:

Well I think that there would be a gap closed especially in the beginning between the cost of you know a a bike from a large manufacturer and a custom made bike you're talking about supply chain infrastructure that has been developed for decades now in some of these areas and man it'd be super tough to to do that here.

Mike DeSalvo:

Mm-hmm in my opinion Yeah no exactly I mean I I uh it'd be it'd be you know it'd be interesting to see to see if it if it could if it could work and I mean there have been there was a place in near Portland for a lot of years called Anodizing Inc. Well they went under a few different names but they would do you know say you had a brand and you went with them and she went to them and you said I need you know fifty of this size and fifty of this size and fifty of this size and they would they would build those for you but they they went through a couple iterations and they're no longer in existence. It's just a it's a tricky thing.

Tom Butler:

I mean it you know I I heard one something recently too and it's like okay so if you you know if somebody's the average consumer is you know there's a bike made in China for a hundred dollars and there's a bike made in the US for a thousand dollars what what do you think most people are gonna go for you know and that's an unfortunate part of it you know well I'm gonna be following it it it'll be interesting to see but oh for sure no absolutely Mike thank you so much for taking the time to do this you know like I said I I enjoy the bike as a machine and you know there's a lot of things about how bikes are made and how frames are made and frame geometry and all that stuff that I I don't know that much about and I just really appreciated the conversation and having you give us a view of your world as a frame builder.

Mike DeSalvo:

Yeah yeah it was definitely fun to share today and I hope that uh I hope that folks picked up something and yeah maybe we'll do it again someday.

Tom Butler:

I I look forward to it. All right

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