Enlighten & Elevate with Kelly

An End to Upside Down Medicine with Mark Gober!

March 20, 2024 Kelly
An End to Upside Down Medicine with Mark Gober!
Enlighten & Elevate with Kelly
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Enlighten & Elevate with Kelly
An End to Upside Down Medicine with Mark Gober!
Mar 20, 2024
Kelly

Hello beautiful souls! Prepare to have your understanding of health and reality profoundly altered as we sit down with Mark Gober, the author behind the groundbreaking "An End to Upside-Down Medicine." Mark challenges us to look beyond the surface of allopathic medicine's symptom-suppressing methods and to consider a more holistic approach, where energy and consciousness take center stage. Our conversation traverses Mark's own transition from the business realm to exploring the deep intricacies of health and existence, shedding light on the oft-overlooked connections that shape our well-being.

Venturing further down the rabbit hole, we share the extraordinary narrative of Anita Morziani's near-death experience, which defied medical odds and reminds us of the mind's capacity to instigate physical healing. We unpack the potential of psychoneuroimmunology and the groundbreaking work of Dr. Joe Dispenza, considering the impact of altered thought patterns on our bodies. The insights on how our intentions may even sway the physical world will leave you contemplating the untapped powers of your own consciousness.

To top off this intriguing exploration, the German New Medicine's perspective on the emotional roots of physical symptoms is introduced, with a nod to Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer's innovative research. I reflect on the importance of broadening our health perspectives, especially in the shadow of recent global health crises, and the profound influence of fear on our collective health. This episode is more than just a discussion—it's an invitation to expand your horizon and embrace a multifaceted approach to healing, acknowledging the symbiotic relationship between our emotional and physical selves.

To get in touch with Mark:

https://markgober.com/

Podcast:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/where-is-my-mind/id1470129415

https://open.spotify.com/show/4ejBG3cGHTok592813S9Ih?si=y5kf6YgCSs2UNlYMg0AkfA

An End to Upside Down Medicine: Contagion, Viruses, and Vaccines—and Why Consciousness Is Needed for a New Paradigm of Health https://a.co/d/0wpEM3d

To get in touch with me:

enlightenandelevatewithkelly@gmail.com

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100067889031070&mibextid=LQQJ4d

@kmatthews840 on Instagram 

https://www.instagram.com/kellymatthews840?igsh=MmtxODhqMzFnYW9k&utm_source=qr

Please rate and review my podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for a chance to win a Distance Reiki Session and Card Pull with me! Winner drawn 5/31/24. Your kind words and support are so appreciated. 

To enter screen shot your rate/review to me on Messenger on FB, or Instagram, or email to enlightenandelevatewithkelly@gmail.com . 

To book a distance Reiki session with me click the link below:

https://alignelevatewithkelly.as.me/

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Hello beautiful souls! Prepare to have your understanding of health and reality profoundly altered as we sit down with Mark Gober, the author behind the groundbreaking "An End to Upside-Down Medicine." Mark challenges us to look beyond the surface of allopathic medicine's symptom-suppressing methods and to consider a more holistic approach, where energy and consciousness take center stage. Our conversation traverses Mark's own transition from the business realm to exploring the deep intricacies of health and existence, shedding light on the oft-overlooked connections that shape our well-being.

Venturing further down the rabbit hole, we share the extraordinary narrative of Anita Morziani's near-death experience, which defied medical odds and reminds us of the mind's capacity to instigate physical healing. We unpack the potential of psychoneuroimmunology and the groundbreaking work of Dr. Joe Dispenza, considering the impact of altered thought patterns on our bodies. The insights on how our intentions may even sway the physical world will leave you contemplating the untapped powers of your own consciousness.

To top off this intriguing exploration, the German New Medicine's perspective on the emotional roots of physical symptoms is introduced, with a nod to Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer's innovative research. I reflect on the importance of broadening our health perspectives, especially in the shadow of recent global health crises, and the profound influence of fear on our collective health. This episode is more than just a discussion—it's an invitation to expand your horizon and embrace a multifaceted approach to healing, acknowledging the symbiotic relationship between our emotional and physical selves.

To get in touch with Mark:

https://markgober.com/

Podcast:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/where-is-my-mind/id1470129415

https://open.spotify.com/show/4ejBG3cGHTok592813S9Ih?si=y5kf6YgCSs2UNlYMg0AkfA

An End to Upside Down Medicine: Contagion, Viruses, and Vaccines—and Why Consciousness Is Needed for a New Paradigm of Health https://a.co/d/0wpEM3d

To get in touch with me:

enlightenandelevatewithkelly@gmail.com

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100067889031070&mibextid=LQQJ4d

@kmatthews840 on Instagram 

https://www.instagram.com/kellymatthews840?igsh=MmtxODhqMzFnYW9k&utm_source=qr

Please rate and review my podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for a chance to win a Distance Reiki Session and Card Pull with me! Winner drawn 5/31/24. Your kind words and support are so appreciated. 

To enter screen shot your rate/review to me on Messenger on FB, or Instagram, or email to enlightenandelevatewithkelly@gmail.com . 

To book a distance Reiki session with me click the link below:

https://alignelevatewithkelly.as.me/

Speaker 1:

Hello, beautiful souls, we have a super interesting topic today. My guest dives into the fundamental beliefs about health and disease, Beliefs that are so fundamental most of us have never thought to question them. Mark and I also dive into the nature of consciousness and how that is often not considered by those that practice modern medicine. He argues we can't fully understand health and disease without understanding who and what we are as humans. Thank you so much for being here and enjoy this thought-provoking conversation.

Speaker 2:

Hello self-family. I'm so excited today to welcome Mark Gober, the author of an End-to-Upside-Down Medicine. Welcome, mark.

Speaker 3:

Hi, kelly, thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 2:

So can you start by telling the audience just a little bit about your background? You very beautifully bridge science and spirituality, so if you want to give a brief background of how you started writing your books, Mark is also a podcast host of when is my Mind, and these were in six other books that also start with the same title and end-to-upside-down, and then there are several different subjects.

Speaker 3:

So my background is actually in business.

Speaker 3:

I used to work in investment banking in New York during the financial crisis of 2008 to 2010.

Speaker 3:

And then I worked, initially in Boston, but mostly in Silicon Valley, at another firm that did business advisory mergers and acquisitions, and while I was at the firm in Silicon Valley in 2016, in many ways, I felt like my life had hit a wall and I was just on a treadmill of trying to achieve things and not knowing if it had any meaning or purpose, and I started listening to podcasts and came across some information that I didn't expect to encounter, which ultimately led me to do research about the nature of reality, who and what we are as human beings, whether or not there are spiritual dimensions to our reality those kinds of big questions and that led me to then write my first book and end-to-upside-down thinking while I was still working at my firm and in 2019, at the very end of the year, I had become a partner at the firm after a decade there and had written the first book, did the podcast series, like you mentioned, where is my Mind?

Speaker 3:

And decided that I wanted to devote my energy, or at least free up my energy, to explore these topics in more depth and long story short. I've now written six books on a variety of topics beyond just the spiritual issues. I've also gone into politics and economics, but, like you said, kelly, most recently about medicine and I would just say, generally, the more I explore fundamental assumptions about the way the world works, the more I realize that the way I looked at things was incomplete.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you for that.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to tell you what I was reading your book.

Speaker 2:

It very much reminded me of, like, my spiritual awakening where, like I was questioning my religious beliefs and I listened to a podcast called Sense of Soul and the girl who her name is Shana Vavra, but she was also a race Catholic and now has different spiritual views, and so she talks about it in this way and this is how I thought about it when I was reading your book she said how much of what you were told about and I thought about this in the terms of medicine were we told to believe and how much of it have we experienced for ourselves.

Speaker 2:

So that was like my frame of mind when I was reading a lot of the stuff that you wrote about, because it was there's so much that we're told and I think that a lot of us want to also trust that when we go to the doctors, that they have our best interests in mind, that they're going to be giving us good information, but that may not always be the case, as I'm kind of figuring out. But there's also reasons behind that, because the modern Western medicine model is allopathic, which you talk about. I don't know if you want to give listeners a little bit on that, that consult towards physicalism and reductionism, and so it's kind of a very narrow way of looking at human body health.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, I would say broadly, what I try to do in this book and all my books is to ask the question how is it that I know the thing that I think I know or the thing that I was told? And then, once I get into the fundamental assumptions, I often realize that they're based on faulty science or just things that haven't been established as firmly as we're told. And this applies, in my opinion, to the allopathic model of medicine, which is the mainstream view of medicine in the West. And the core tenets to me are that number one it is reductionistic, that it tends to try to find a single material cause for a condition and then it likes to say, well, there's this one pill you can take to get rid of these symptoms that's caused by this one thing, when in reality I think health is much more multifactorial in general and the allopathic model can be very limiting. And that leads to the second point which I think is problematic in allopathic medicine that it tends to focus on symptoms rather than getting to the root cause of disease, rather than understanding why a person is having the symptoms. This allopathic model says, well, let's just get rid of the symptoms, and maybe in some cases that's appropriate, but in other cases perhaps it just suppresses something that needs to come out and it will come out in another way.

Speaker 3:

As a non-doctor, I wrote this book not from the perspective of how do we treat an emergency, which is often like a clinical doctor's perspective of they're looking very practically. I'm looking at what are the determinants of health and disease. Why do people get sick? Fundamentally Because I think when we get to the answers to those questions it will lead to solutions. But often in mainstream medicine they're not looking that deeply because they've got a lot of patients to deal with and they need to make someone well quickly.

Speaker 2:

Right, you talked about a lot of different things in the book, but explaining why looking at a human in a different way is important in medicine a human as an energy being. It was chapter seven where you talked about several different things the mind, matter, interaction, the biofield, invisible interconnectedness and resonance, spontaneous healings and conscious shifts and other worldly influences. All of those things are not things that doctors ever consider. I was wondering if you would want to dive into that and why consciousness, why considering it from that point of view is important. Moving forward, if you really do want to be concerned about your overall health, the connection between the body, mind and spirit is very important.

Speaker 3:

It really is. It's not something we hear of from mainstream medical professionals the idea of the soul or an afterlife. That's considered taboo or superstition. In my opinion and this is my initial work and end upside down thinking got into the scientific evidence for the idea that we do have a soul or spirit, whatever you want to call it, a consciousness that inhabits the body. It views the body as a vessel for something bigger rather than the body as the whole thing. There's a lot of scientific evidence to back that up that I've written about extensively. If that's true, then we have to look at health differently by definition, if the body is not just a random development from 13.8 billion years of a universe of random evolutionary processes, if there's something more to it, then we need to understand that in order to understand health. I think that's a big part that's missing from mainstream medicine. I'll just give one example, because in that Chapter 7, I'm glad you brought it up To me that's actually the core of health. The other stuff is really important too, talking about germs, but understanding what a human being is essential because we're leaving things out.

Speaker 3:

I've mentioned in many of my books, including an end upside down medicine research done at the University of Virginia, their division of perceptual studies at the medical school. Since the late 1960s they have been studying cases of young children who speak about memories of a life that is not their own A past life effectively In some cases over 2,500 cases. They've studied some of the cases. The researchers are able to find historical records that validate what the child has said, which is pretty remarkable because these kids are usually between two and six years old. Sometimes I mean often they're speaking of more mundane existences than, let's say, cleopatra. So these are not glorified past lives. These are sometimes very specific and in other cases the researchers point to physical defects in the child's body or birthmarks that can be linked to the way that person died in a previous life. So the child might talk about being killed in a previous life as a different person, and the way the person died in the past life corresponds to the child's body physically. In some of the cases the researchers are able to find medical records that validate what happened in the previous life. So those are pretty remarkable If you think about this from the standpoint of medicine, traditional biology and medicine. Researchers believe that the two factors that influence our physical form are our genetics and the environment that we're in, whereas in these cases, where children have physical effects of their body that correspond to a previous life or something, there's a third factor that's the term they've used. It's a third factor, beyond genetics and environment, that is impacting their body. Now that finding alone blows apart a lot of the way we think about the body and needs to be incorporated when we think about just anything related to health.

Speaker 3:

And I'll give one more example before pausing.

Speaker 3:

I mentioned Anita Morziani, who famously had a near-death experience. She had terminal cancer, tumors all over her body, she was dying in a coma and she had another worldly experience. Her consciousness was somehow liberated as she was dying like many others have reported throughout history but in the modern era there's tons and tons of cases and she had a shift in her consciousness to put a long story short where she realized that she had not treated herself well in her own consciousness and started to shift her mindset. She encountered her deceased father, who she hadn't had a good relationship with while she was living, but she felt unconditional love for him. She came back into her body and was resuscitated and within the next few weeks her cancer and her tumors disappeared. So this is someone who was supposed to have died. She had a shift in her consciousness or in her energy, something, and physically there was a shift that allowed her to live. So those are just two examples that they really blow apart the allopathic approach to medicine, and there are many other examples that have a similar effect.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, anita Morgani's story. It's really mind-blowing. Her book is called Dying to Be Me. I'm very familiar with her story she's written several books since then but she really wants people to live authentically and love themselves and that's central to her message that we come here to experience joy, to love ourselves, and that when we don't love ourselves or live authentically, that that does affect our physical feeling.

Speaker 3:

And that's not what we're taught from doctors and it's not what doctors are taught in medical school, and if they are, it might be a one-off thing. So there is a field of what's called psychoneuroimmunology, which is sort of mind-body, but really what we're talking about is a different level of multi-dimensional realities as it pertains to the human body and how our consciousness interplays with that. I think we're going to have a hard time, as a global society, getting to the root cause of disease if we ignore this crucial area.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, dr Joe D'Aspenza talks about changing your neural pathways. He has a book that he wrote that's called Breaking the Habit of being Yourself, where he talks a lot about just changing your thought patterns creates new neural pathways Not in and of itself, just shows you the power of your mind. I know several more examples that you've written about that show, I mean, how powerful our mind is, how powerful we are as a being, and that we actually do. We shouldn't be looking for answers outside of ourselves. We should be looking for answers with one.

Speaker 3:

Really, this comes down to a metaphysical framework for thinking about the nature of reality, and the mainstream view that applies to much of modern medicine is known as physicalism or scientific materialism. It says everything can be reduced to something physical, like matter, whereas the alternative that I propose in my books that is really a summary of what many others have said it's known as idealism or a consciousness-centric metaphysics, where, rather than saying that matter, something physical is the basis of all reality, it's immaterial, it's a consciousness that's the basis of reality. And the analogy that I really like comes from a philosopher named Dr Bernardo Castro. He says that all of reality could be likened to a stream of water, an infinite stream, where the water is like consciousness and each of us as a human or other being, any being. It would be a whirlpool within that stream. So it's an individuation, an apparent individuation within something that is interconnected and contiguous. So it's like there's an individual with something interconnected at the same time, which is highly paradoxical.

Speaker 3:

But if you believe that framework to be true, or at least directionally accurate, it would imply that a shift in consciousness is going to have a shift on the entire stream of water, which means that our mindset actually has an effect on the physical world, because the physical world, from this perspective, is actually just a world of consciousness and everything that we call physical is actually unverifiable as physical, like so, if I touch my table or touch the chair, that's really a sensation that I'm experiencing in my consciousness, but I'm interpreting it as something physical. The same goes with what I see and what I hear. We do all kinds of calculations to create a world out there, when fundamentally, all we can verify is that it is consciousness.

Speaker 2:

Right, and our experience of the world is what we're experiencing through our five senses. So that's what we're just thinking. We just need to think beyond.

Speaker 3:

And what we see in, let's say, near-death experiences or other types of mystical states. It's as if consciousness is liberated from the confines of those typical five senses and people are able to perceive in a new way that our body would block out. It's almost like the brain and the body are filters that obscure a much broader reality, and in near-death experiences, for example, sometimes people report 360-degree vision. So they're in a state where their body is shut off and yet their consciousness is expanded. And it speaks to your point, kelly, that our perceptions limit our ability to experience a broader reality and therefore I think that affects the way we look at health and disease.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, do you want me to talk a little bit about random number generators, because I thought that was a really cool part of your book too.

Speaker 3:

So these are machines that generate zeros and ones in a random fashion. So if you let the machine go, it will create a string of zeros and ones. As you do this longer and longer it will approach 50% ones and 50% zeros, because it's a random process. What experimenters have done? And this work has been done around the world the Institute of Noetic Sciences, the Princeton University, had a lab for nearly 30 years where they were looking at this and many other researchers. They asked people to put their mind to the machine and they would say Kelly, I want you to try to make this machine produce more ones than zeros. But you're not touching it, you're just going to make a mental intention for the machine to behave differently.

Speaker 3:

And the results are statistically significant. So it's not as though it's every number is a one. It's beyond what chance would predict. So it's above 50-50 and it's a statistically significant deviation above 50-50 chance, which indicates that some effect is getting through, which actually kind of makes sense, because if our mind was having a more extreme effect on reality, then I could think of an elephant and an elephant would appear, and maybe there's some advanced beings who can do that. I can't, most of us can't do that. It's much more subtle and that's the way a lot of these psychic phenomena seem to work, beyond just this psychokinesis mind impacting matter. But these studies have been done over and over again and there seems to be a deviation which suggests that, even if it's small, our mind is having a tangible effect on reality.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. You also discussed things like the Maharishi effect and hands-on healing, and you talk about specific studies where people used hands-on healing with recovering cancer patients and that they actually recovered better than a control group where they did not have that same sort of healing going on, which would also sort of indicate that there is something else going on there energetically.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, exactly the fact that our intentions can create some kind of a physical effect on the body and we can see a tangible effect in terms of healing. That's really an application of psychokinesis, and these are things that are not studied as much as they should be. So in the book I referenced some of the studies that have been done, but relative to studies on chemotherapy or something much more conventional, this is considered taboo research, so many people who want to study these things. They're told things like well, if you want to study this stuff, you're not going to get tenure, so you should go somewhere else. And that means there have been some brave researchers and brave funders who have put the financial resources into this sort of thing.

Speaker 3:

But I would say that it needs to be studied much more thoroughly. There needs to be more replications, and when that happens, we'll maybe start to be able to understand the mechanism, because right now we do see an effect, but it's not clear how people are doing it. They're putting their hands over someone or they're creating a mental intention, and sometimes there are just particularly gifted healers who can do this, but not everyone else is trained in it. It's a murky area, but the point is that there are some studies that have been done using the scientific method and it makes sense. If consciousness is the basis of reality to some degree, it would make sense that this can happen sometimes where there can be an energetic or an intention-based healing that affects the body.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean in what you're speaking to. A lot of these doctors or people who work in these fields, they get shamed or lose their credibility and they're mocked for even going and researching some of these things, which is do we really have a full view of everything? Well, I don't really think so, because they're not giving equal attention or research towards all components that are involved.

Speaker 3:

And I would say the root issue is that they tend to have a materialistic or a physicalist perspective on the way reality works. So to them to think about a mind-matter interaction that does not make sense, it doesn't comport with their overall worldview. So if the worldview were to be challenged more and people said, wait, maybe consciousness isn't just something from the brain, it's something that's creating our reality, then these other possibilities become things that should be studied.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you also talk about German new medicine G. Do you want to talk to the listeners a little bit about that? But what was really fascinating as well.

Speaker 3:

I'm glad you pointed that out. It's something I mentioned briefly in the book and in that chapter seven I preface it by saying look, there needs to meet more science on all of these topics, but they're relevant to talk about. They're definitely not all bulletproof, because we would want to see more applications and things like that. So for that reason I didn't go too deep into one area. I wanted to give a wide spectrum. But this is an area that I've looked at even more since I've written the book.

Speaker 3:

But the idea of German new medicine is that most physical ailments that we see in the body are the result of conflicts, like emotional shocks, that manifest as symptoms. And the way his name is Dr Homer. He discovered this in the late 70s, early 80s. He allegedly is able to see on CAT scans that there are lesions in the brain that correspond to an organ, and those lesions in the brain occur when there's an emotional shock. And basically what this turns into is if a person reports a certain type of a symptom let's say it's a digestive issue or skin rashes or anything, or cancer a practitioner of German new medicine can say well, we've looked at many, many cases of this and based on these symptoms.

Speaker 3:

You had this kind of a conflict shock and the symptoms you're experiencing are an indication that you're healing from the conflict. So what they say in German new medicine is as you're in a conflict active phase, so you're conflicted about something, emotionally it could be a devaluation, conflict or isolation, they're all types of conflicts. Your body builds up resources to be able to handle it. There's a resolution and once there's a resolution the body has to expel all of that extra stuff and it can manifest as symptoms of various kinds. So it's interesting in German new medicine when you're having symptoms it's actually a sign that you're resolving the conflict. It doesn't mean that the symptoms couldn't eventually kill you to some degree, so there's a need to take care of it. That just indicates there's such a huge conflict.

Speaker 3:

But and if there are chronic conditions it's known as a track in German new medicine it means there's whatever that initial emotional conflict shock was is being reactivated over and over again. So it's called a hanging healing, where you end up having symptoms over and over again because you're being reactivated. Then you have a quick healing, then you're reactivated. So it's just a totally different lens on looking at health. I mean this doesn't mean that things like toxicity or just poisons or nutrition don't matter. I believe that is part of German new medicine. So let's say someone had a huge amount of arsenic or mercury or something like that would trump any kind of emotional conflict. Shock, but absent those more extreme cases, they're looking at it from the lens of consciousness, ultimately, of how our emotions affecting our health. And then how can we identify the appropriate emotions to focus on in our own healing based on symptoms that emerge?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think this is just an interesting way to look at health and to look at how to take care of yourself, just to look at two different ones. Of course, there's many things involved here health, nutrition, exercise, spending time in nature. I just like that you wrote the book and you're challenging people to start to look at health in a different way, that maybe there we shouldn't always believe everything we're told at least I can tell you. In the last five years I could tell you most of the things that I've been told to believe are and I have come to figure out are not true. So it's interesting to put some different ideas out there and this isn't to upset anybody. It's just to get people to start thinking about things differently.

Speaker 2:

When I talk about my spiritual beliefs or how I look at the world today, Sometimes people do look at me funny. I don't know if you have that same experience, but I can always tell. I look at someone's face and they're you know if they have some curiosities there or if they're just like this person is kind of out there. I can definitely tell. So I just think it's really interesting, though I just wanted to share that with you because I'm sure that you've experienced that a lot.

Speaker 3:

I'm very accustomed to this. At this point it's almost my expectation. But then there's some people who are more receptive. And then people change over time where they might be averse to an idea, but then a few years later, all of a sudden they wake up to it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, some people just start ready for it. I can tell you, before I became spiritually awake there were some things that, like I read and research now that I wasn't ready for four years ago it's about almost five years I just wasn't ready for it. But now that I went down a different path I'm, you know, ready to look at things in a different way. So it's just an interesting thing that you talk a lot about COVID-19 and fear, and fear is very powerful, it's a very powerful tool and it can affect their bodies.

Speaker 2:

And you know, after going through that definitely I questioned the medical establishments for many reasons. I noticed right away they weren't talking about nutrition, exercise, and then with the lockdowns they took away human connection. You know, community, and that's super important to us as a species. Like we need community, we need connection. So for me, having gone through that, I mean it definitely made me rethink. And then, of course, the forcing of vaccinations, that whole part of it too, not giving people that they really kind of forced it on a lot of people, especially people who worked in healthcare and stuff.

Speaker 2:

So, it made me rethink a lot of different things, but you talk about that a lot.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, kelly, it's been a really important part of my journey too. I had written my first book two books and then upside down thinking and then upside down living. I just left my job in Silicon Valley and then the world shut down and I saw a lot of the things that you were describing. Even early on, they were really pushing the idea of vaccination before it was even conceived of that. That was gonna be the savior. They weren't talking about other types of alternatives. They weren't letting doctors say things that counter the narrative with regard to the severity of COVID-19.

Speaker 3:

I remember there were some ER doctors that went on TV and there was a YouTube video of them saying hey, look, we're in the hospital. Yes, people are getting sick, but it's not as serious as everyone's saying. That was the gist of it. That was taken off YouTube. That didn't hit with the narrative. So I became very skeptical and I would say that my journey has had maybe two parts to it. The first part was in 2016, when I generally learned about the nature of reality. There's evidence that consciousness is primary survival of bodily death, mind matter, interaction, all that sort of thing, but it was generally leading to a benevolence that ultimately were part of something very positive that's loving, and I still believe that. But what I didn't focus on as much as the darker side in the deception that's present in our world. And when I started to see things happening in the spring of 2020 with COVID-19, that led me down a new path. That's led me to look at politics and economics and social engineering and some of the corruption in medicine.

Speaker 2:

My most recent book- yes, and that leads me to another thing that you talked about even the spiritual concept of like you talked about exorcisms and demons and such, and it was an interesting point that you talked about that got allowing you to get in. I really understood it in a different way, I think four years ago. Had I ever that, I would have been like, oh my gosh, no way I have listened to so many things. But a demon can only be what it is right. That's what its purpose is to do certain things. I just thought that was such an interesting point that you brought up.

Speaker 2:

But all of these things that we face, I think we live in a world of duality for everything that is good there is an equal thing and opposite, that is bad, right. So, but they all are here to help us to evolve as humans and to help us to learn and go through things. I mean, I know that some of those lessons can be painful. I mean, I've been through some painful lessons myself but I do believe that, like you said, that there is, it is for all, for the good.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I think that makes the most sense to me, that everything that happens is ultimately evolutionary, even if it's painful. So, for example, working out at the gym can help someone gain strength in a very tangible way. It's painful, but it leads to a positive effect in the end. So it could be that evil or even the worst kinds of suffering we see at the highest, highest level are stimulating some kind of growth. Now I have heard more pushback to this idea in recent times where people would say well, that's really what you're saying, mark, is a manipulation, because there's some dark force that wants us to suffer and feeds off of our suffering. It's actually not evolutionary.

Speaker 3:

I don't know what we can prove or not prove, but people who have mystical experiences from across cultures, across time seem to point to a net benevolence that we're always learning and growing and we can look at health that way too, and we go through a health challenge, especially from the lens of German new medicine or others like it. We're being told to look at something emotionally within us that can help us grow and the body showing us symptoms as a way for us to wake up, and so it's a tricky thing. I feel like the problem if we call it the problem of evil, of reconciling evil, might have to do with the fact that our human minds can only conceptualize things in a linear way and this stuff is so complex. To try to rationalize why things happen is really challenging, but I have found in my own life that the most challenging times do lead to the most growth in the end 100%.

Speaker 2:

There's some really good books out there too. I know Robert Schwartz's book, the Life your Souls Planned, the Life you and I believe it's called Before you Were Born. That really helps people to kind of at least it helped me and he talks about a wide variety of topics and he's written three books I believe it's a series of three different ones Gives you a whole different perspective on everything, because everything just isn't black and white and there's only so much, I believe, through our human lens, that we can. That's why I think it's so hard for people to understand why evil exists, why certain people are the way that they are. I mean, in our human we can only understand so much, but there's so much that is beyond our understanding, more things at play, I believe, than we can see can see about whether we're in five senses.

Speaker 3:

So, if it makes sense, yes, and I wanna add on to the point about Robert Schwartz's work. So the idea that we plan our lives and we even plan our biggest life challenges before birth, one attitude that could be taken I think it's a distorted attitude is well, that person over there is suffering horribly. He or she planted before birth, it's meant to happen. I don't need to do anything. I don't think it's that simple. So I wanna give a story that was told by Dr Green, yeah, but it was told by Dr David Hawkins, who was a spiritual teacher, passed away in 2012, and was formerly a top psychiatrist in New York and then had his own spiritual awakening.

Speaker 3:

He told the story of Ramana Maharshi, who was an Indian sage, very enlightened, famous spiritual teacher, and Maharshi used to say that the world that we see does not exist. And what Hawkins said is that Maharshi is correct and ultimately he's right. But not everyone is operating from such an enlightened state. They're operating from the perspective that the world does exist and their suffering exists as well, even though, at some level, there's no world and therefore suffering is illusory, and so forth. So what Hawkins said is that because people are operating from these different levels of reality, it would be a spiritual error to ignore the suffering of people in the world, even though it doesn't exist, even though maybe they planned it before birth and whatnot. It's this holding the paradox of well, they are suffering and therefore there's a spiritual duty for those who recognize the suffering to try to help to alleviate it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think we should absolutely help people when we can. Yeah, there's so many different ways of looking at all of this, and then there's all these people can come at you.

Speaker 3:

I know.

Speaker 2:

When you start talking about all of these different ideas, I think people get so defensive because it's rocking their reality into things that they've known or what they believed to be true. So when you challenge a lot of people's belief systems, it can be a little bit tumultuous, I think. But if you want to continue to evolve and grow, you have to approach subjects with an open mind, curiosity, and come at it with a good intention to learn and use it to become the best version of yourself.

Speaker 3:

I totally agree, and some of these topics are uncomfortable and they can get dark not all of them, and I think just in my own journey I found it to be a spiritual bypass to want to ignore these things. And there's a distinction between dwelling on darkness and getting caught up in it versus just knowing that it exists and just holding it separately and saying this is a real thing, there's deception in the world. I need to navigate accordingly rather than saying I'm gonna stick my head in the sand and not do anything. And I do think in some spiritual teachings it can lead towards spiritual bypass where people say well, mark, why are you focusing on these things? We should focus on love and light. You're somehow calling it in to acknowledge reality. I think the opposite that we need to acknowledge reality for what it is and then hold the love and light and work around it.

Speaker 2:

I totally agree with you. And are you familiar with Greg Braden? I think yes, okay. So he put it in a way that I think really makes sense. He said the dark forces exist, these things exist. There is evil in the world, there is bad things, but that does not have to be the focus of your human experience. You acknowledge it and you respect it, but that doesn't have to be your focus. And he's one of my most favorite teachers. I think he has so many good things out there. I thought that was an interesting way of looking at the darkness. You have to acknowledge it and you have to. It is a reality. I don't think putting your hand in the sand and anything is going to help you at all. You just have to be discerning in what you learn and what you're focusing on and, with your intuition, I would say, on most things.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the term that I've used in my books is a compassion with discernment, because there are some teachings that just focus on one without the other and a lot of modern spirituality. It's just be compassionate. Be compassionate but not acknowledge what's false light, because there can be things that are like wolves in sheep's clothing. That masquerade is something that would be compassionate. And we see this in the medical field, where someone would say, well, it's really compassionate for me to say you need to take this medical intervention, but maybe that person doesn't have the discernment to look at whether the medical intervention is actually helpful. So it's like you need to have, but it's not sufficient just to have discernment and spend all your time researching where the deception is and so forth, without having the compassion too. Because that exists, where you get people who are very riled up over how much darkness there is and they want to expose it, but then sometimes they lack the compassion. And I think it's that balance of having the compassion with discernment at the same time that's maybe the ultimate North Star for spiritual development.

Speaker 2:

I totally agree. I totally agree. Well, mark, what is at stake if we don't consider consciousness as we move forward, if we want to live our most healthy life? What is at stake if we're not involving that in our thoughts and our approach?

Speaker 3:

Well, to me, the implications are ultimately metaphysical, and it might be that something with regard to our souls is at stake and I've written about this in many books, that I now see the world as one a battle between a desire for freedom and a desire for enslavement, those who want to liberate and those who want to have power over others.

Speaker 3:

And it seems that medicine is one of the core levers to enact an agenda of power to try to control people, and from a very fundamental level, if people are not fully healthy, if they're sick, then they're more controllable. That's one important area. But also, if people don't have an empowered view of health, they might be more inclined to just listen to whatever the authorities say and believe it to be the absolute truth, when in fact the authorities might not have full information or they might actually have an intentional desire to harm. And then I wonder what does that do for people's souls if they haven't been fully liberated or if they're living in a constricted type of reality? Does that mean that people aren't evolving at their soul level as much as they could, which could have very serious consequences?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well. I encourage everybody to have the links in the podcast notes for Mark's book. There is so much research in there. Everything is beautifully researched. Mark has done his homework and there's a lot Mark he goes through. I mean we don't have enough time to talk about it on this podcast, so people are gonna have to go and read the book. But you go through various illnesses and what were the possible causes, opposed to what was really talked about at the time or currently. Even so, let's thank you for this book and for the new perspective on any property consciousness into medicine. I think that this is just the beginning of these types of conversations. So thank you so much for being here and talking to my listeners and I wish you a well moving forward. Do you have any new projects on the horizon that you wanna mention or I do not.

Speaker 3:

I just wanna thank you, Kelly, so much for having me and being willing to talk about these topics.

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely Anytime. And how can the listeners get in touch with you if they would like to or follow your work or any of those things?

Speaker 3:

Sure, my website is a good place to start. Markgobercom, m-a-r-k-g-o-b-e-rcom. I've written six books. They're all available on Amazon and they're available in hard copy, kindle and Audible, and I read all the Audible's myself, if you enjoy that.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. Well, mark, thank you so much for being here, and I always end by saying I honor the light that you are in this world, so thanks for being here.

Speaker 3:

Thank you.

Speaker 4:

Hey, it's Jen Mitchell, host of the Soul Traveler podcast and your partner in leveling up your life through quantum hypnosis. I'm sure that you've heard before that all answers lie within, right? Well, it's true. Do you ever wonder how some people are so wildly successful and seem to achieve all of their life goals? It's because they've figured out life's secret the power of the subconscious mind. Highly successful CEOs and entrepreneurs have used hypnosis to make their dreams a reality, and it's no longer a secret. Now you can transform your life with the power of the subconscious by using these same techniques with quantum hypnosis. Let's level up your life. Visit me online at thesoulexperiencescom and click on Subconscious Coaching. Hello, beautiful soul. Thank you again for listening.

Speaker 5:

I'd like to ask you to please rate, review and follow the show. It really helps to have it become more visible and the beautiful messages be spread to more people. I also want to thank you for being here. I hope you enjoyed this video. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed it. I also wanted to mention that I am now offering Reiki Distant Sessions. The link will be in the podcast notes. Feel free to reach out to me with any questions about that. Also, I wanted to put out there. If there is something that you have to share to be a guest on the show, please reach out to me and we'll see if it's a good fit. Thank you again for being here and sending love, light, joy and teeth and magic your way.

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