Robin Hones - Tips for Starting an Indoor Commercial Farm - Get Up & Grow Podcast EP #5

Welcome to the Get Up & Grow Podcast, Episode #5. Today, we're joined by Robin Hones, owner of Cascadia Greens, a hydroponic indoor farm in Seattle, WA. In this episode, Robin shares his journey into gardening, his experience with hydroponic growing and how he setup his business to sell at local farmers' markets in the Pacific Northwest.

Robin tells us about the various options of growing produce in greenhouses vs. the indoors and the challenges of commercial farming in the winter in the Seattle area. He also explains the difference between gardening and farming and his process of setting up a growing container system.

We dive deeper into hydroponic growing methods, including the Kratky method and other effective techniques for growing leafy greens. Robin also shares his process of growing microgreens and how he keeps his growing methods as effective as possible in order to scale up operations.

We learn about Robin's experience selling produce at the Capitol Hill Farmers' market, his customer's favorite products, and what this type of customer usually looks for. We also touch on other ways to bring indoor farmed produce to market like through restaurants or distributorships and how you can do it too.

Finally, as a worldly person, Robin shares his future hopes to bringing efficient farming systems to Africa.

Thank you for joining us on the Get Up & Grow Podcast, Episode #5 with Robin Hones of Cascadia Greens. Tune in every two weeks to learn more from our engaging group of growers kind enough to share their knowledge with us!

We discuss some of the following:

• His journey into gardening and his experience with hydroponic growing.
• The challenges of commercial farming in the winter in the Seattle area.
• Growing in greenhouses vs. indoors. 
• The difference between gardening and farming.
• The Kratky hydroponic growing method.
• His technique for growing microgreens at scale.
• The options for getting your produce to market.
• His experience selling at the Capitol Hill Farmers' market.
• What customers like to see at farmers' markets.
• Other tips for success in commercial farming as a small business.

This Podcast is dedicated to growers like you so we appreciate your feedback so we can provide the best experience possible for the grower community. 

Now Get Up & Grow! 

Taylor S.

To learn more about our Podcast, our Grower Community Blog or our Grow Light Academy checkout our website here: https://activegrowled.com/

Transcript

Taylor (00:00.886)
Hi everyone, thanks for joining the podcast today. My name is Taylor Schaberg. I'm the owner of Active Grow and the host of the Get Up and Grow podcast. We're really excited and honored to have a special guest on today. His name is Robin Hones. He is the owner of Cascadia Greens in Seattle, Washington. He is a guy who's really experienced in growing hydroponically, microgreens, leafy greens, and other vegetables. And he doesn't say no to a challenge when it comes to.

you know, growing and that's what I like about him because he's been very nice to me helping test my different lighting systems to try to see if, you know, more blue light will increase flavors or if more red light will increase the speed of growth. And we've done a few videos together in the past on YouTube. So we're really excited to have him on the podcast today and kind of check in on him and what's going on. So we appreciate you being here. And without further ado, here is Robin Holmes of Cascadia Greens.

Taylor (00:05.819)
Hi, Rob, and it's good to see you. Thanks for joining us on the podcast.

Robin (00:09.814)
Yeah, good to see you. Long time.

Taylor (00:13.483)
Yeah, it's great having you on. I've known you for quite a while. You've been so kind to me and generous with your time, always open to trying different things with me when it comes to testing lighting and different growing operations. You've made space for me in your space that you have your farming operation. So you're more of a commercial guy. A few of the other people we've spoken to are gardeners and.

you know, doing things at home, not so much at scale. So it'll be interesting to get your take on a few things. So for the people that don't know you, how did you get into gardening to begin with?

Robin (00:52.622)
Gardening is like an entry drug into farming. I guess, way back in the last century when I was a young man struggling to get through college, I paid my way through by doing a lot of landscape gardening and working as a hard hat, basically. Ferry wheelbarrows all over the place.

Taylor (00:54.520)
and farming.

Robin (01:21.730)
So I kind of learned enough to bluff my way through a bunch of stuff then. And then nothing happened for probably 20 years or even more. And then I discovered permaculture, which for people who are not aware of it, is essentially a design system.

Robin (01:50.582)
where you are maximizing the output relative to the input. You're not maximizing the output. So in other words, a combine harvester would not, would maximize the output, but it requires a huge amount of input, right? Capital, labor, and everything else. Then the cultures are much more, I don't know what you would call it, passive. It's based on the design of the system. So I got into that.

Robin (02:20.154)
And then as a result of that, I got into other stuff. So I went down a huge rabbit hole. And as life rolled on and I had to make some life changes, I ended up doing farming at a small scale, not a large scale, but very much related to indoor stuff.

Taylor (02:26.338)
Mm-hmm.

Taylor (02:50.126)
Okay.

Robin (02:50.440)
that's kind of the background.

Taylor (02:53.015)
I remember when I visited you from, you had outdoor and you had indoor going on. We can get into that in a minute. Yeah.

Robin (02:59.050)
Yeah, and honestly, I felt that there are a lot of people who can farm outdoors. They have resources. They have the interests. They have more skills. That was not my, if you like, competitive advantage. I felt like I could do much better concentrating on the indoor stuff. And the indoor stuff is not, it's not.

Taylor (03:18.562)
Mm.

Robin (03:28.558)
There are some huge indoor farms and there's a lot of angst right now because a lot of those are.

Robin (03:38.030)
They have a large appetite for capital, let's just put it that way. And I think that they have fallen into a bunch of traps, which could have been foreseen. Maybe they did foresee them, but a whole bunch of the big boys have gone bankrupt in the last six months to a year. So we'll see who survives out of that. But what I was, what I am.

Taylor (03:42.907)
Hmm.

Taylor (04:01.967)
Wow.

Robin (04:06.862)
trying to get to is a much more distributed model. So in a sense, it's a little bit like a franchise system. Although, I mean, that's the easiest way to describe it, although that would not be the business model. So there would be smaller, if you like, farms and inverted commons distributed.

Robin (04:34.930)
throughout the area so that they can supply locally and they can be hyper local. Like for example, I'll give you a concrete example. I went through a whole series of discussions which actually ended up without being implemented, but went through a whole series of discussions with a food bank that was trying to reinvent itself away from being...

Robin (05:05.130)
charity with maybe slightly negative connotation like, oh, you're going to a food bank, to something where it was a community center where they could train people to cook, where they could train people to cater, train people to grow, etc. So it was more of a community center implementation than a pure

Taylor (05:15.569)
Hmm.

Robin (05:34.122)
sort of charity food feed out handout. So that's an example of what I mean by going hyper local. So you can have a something in a, in a shipping container footprint, which is let's say 40 feet long by eight feet wide. By nine or a half feet high. You can have it in a standard 44 shipping container. I don't know even small than that.

Taylor (05:43.524)
Hmm

Robin (06:03.674)
and you can have somebody grow that to a system. And there are people that supply pre-built shipping container modules. In my opinion, they're.

Taylor (06:19.003)
So this was your passion project, because currently you're selling at local farmers markets, and you've been able to get some grant money, but the next stage, you're saying, of what you wanna do is to develop this container concept.

Robin (06:35.346)
Yeah, actually, a small correction, it's not grant money, it's a private loan. There are a bunch of people who were interested in what I was doing and felt that that was a viable business model to address some of the seasonality issues and address some of the food desert issues.

Taylor (06:40.873)
Oh, sorry.

Robin (07:06.216)
So I got some private loans to that. It wasn't a grant. I'm no good at writing grant proposals. I can't, it's not me, I can't do it.

Taylor (07:14.868)
Okay.

Taylor (07:18.455)
Okay. Well, you convinced somebody, so.

Robin (07:22.710)
Well, yeah, I mean, on a business front, it's that's more in my wheelhouse. Getting around involves different skills and I don't have those skills.

Taylor (07:36.783)
Yeah, you have a bit of both. I remember you said you lived in Japan way back when you were a young businessman then and traveled all over the world and you're still doing operations around the world. So I want to get into that.

Robin (07:50.642)
Yeah, yeah, well, maybe we can, we can talk about the stuff that's relevant to agriculture.

Taylor (07:58.783)
Right, right. Let's get into that. Yeah. So, you know, I've seen your operation. It's a little shed in Enumclaw. What are some of the challenges of growing in sort of a shed type setup where, you know, you're trying to control the environment, but there's also, there's like, you know, it's kind of a natural place where I was there one day. I think there was a frog hopping around in there. So how do you...

make a space like a shed as controlled as you possibly can and what are the what are the challenges of growing in a space like that with Pacific Northwest winter as well?

Robin (08:33.514)
Well, there's a bunch of challenges. There's some good things. So let's start with the good things. Pacific Northwest, Seattle, the coldest it will get is about 15 Fahrenheit minus 10 Celsius. If you're in a shed as a symptom of greenhouse, you are less prone to that cold.

Robin (09:02.614)
So there is lower heating required. You can, you need, I'm sorry, lighting, which is where we came in, right? Because the extent to which you grow, 16 hours a day or whatever, it's all gonna be driven by artificial light. So a greenhouse.

Robin (09:31.618)
You've got some light, maybe not so much in the Pacific Northwest in winter, but you get sunlight, right? But a shed will give you better thermal protection. Not necessarily. I mean, depends how you implement the shed. But it could be fully insulated. It could be uninsulated, like all of mine. I meant. And.

Robin (10:00.182)
So I think those are the main trade-offs between a shed and a greenhouse.

Taylor (10:04.247)
Okay.

Robin (10:06.538)
I think this whole conversation, though, is very specific to your location. So if you've got listeners who are, for example, in southern Florida, they have a very different day length, they have a very different temperature issue, they have a very different electrical cost. So one of the things we should mention, I think, is that the lighting is...

or air conditioning or anything like that is becoming more and more efficient as time goes by. But if you're paying whatever it is, 11, 12 cents kilowatt hour in Washington, that's very different from what you would pay in New York. I don't know what it is in New York, but I believe it's two and a half times as much, maybe.

Taylor (11:03.195)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (11:07.907)
And obviously the temperature swings and the humidity. Maybe we should talk a little bit about humidity. If you grow using water, that generates a lot of humidity. So you've got two considerations. One is to grow crops which are not.

Taylor (11:17.488)
Yeah.

Robin (11:34.586)
necessarily affected by humidity. And the other one is to find systems which will reduce the humidity, the tank at any given time. So I use mostly the first. So I addressed the humidity

Robin (12:06.054)
either grow fast enough that they would not be affected by humidity or were more resistant to humidity. If you're outdoors, you can vent your operation. If you're indoors, you can vent. It just requires pre-thought.

Taylor (12:12.604)
Hmm.

Robin (12:32.874)
And again, it comes back to this issue of regionality. I mean, you're going to have more humidity in Houston than you are in Seattle over the whole year, but you need to design your system for, if not peak loads, I mean, close to peak loads of whatever it is, peak cold, peak sun, peak temperature.

Big community, whatever.

Taylor (13:04.587)
Right, so you were mentioning some different plants that you grow that can be resistant to humidity. Are some of these like leafy greens and microgreens? Are they in this category?

Robin (13:16.894)
Yeah, so some of it, yeah. So it, crop selection has to take into account those kind of issues. It's also a question of what size of operation you have, what your market outlets are, etc, etc. So it's not quite that straightforward. But for example, I would go microgreens.

Robin (13:46.958)
because they can be ready within as early as 10 days, and certainly within a couple of weeks to three weeks, depending on which particular variety we're talking about. So they don't even, they don't last long enough to show any impact from humidity. The leafy greens are not,

Taylor (13:56.423)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (14:16.030)
as susceptible to humidity, excuse me, a lot of them. So some items are, some aren't, and that's just like trial and error and you'll come across that fairly soon and you'll be able to see. But those can be done in 40 days, 50 days, let's say from seeding to harvest for lettuce, for example.

Robin (14:45.874)
So some crops are really unsuited to growing in a smaller operation indoors. So for example, tomatoes. Tomatoes are susceptible to humidity. They, more importantly, from my point of view, they're not productive enough.

Robin (15:15.894)
to grow in a multi-tiered indoor system because they take up some of space relative to their output. They're much better grown in my opinion in a greenhouse.

Robin (15:32.050)
in the ground as well. I mean there are systems out there which are what you might call hybrid systems. So they're not actually grown in the ground. But they're grown, most of the ones I've seen are grown in greenhouses. I did try dwarf varieties, tomatoes like literally.

Taylor (15:33.732)
Right.

Robin (16:01.670)
they would grow to nine inches, not more than a foot, that's for sure. And I think you might call it an artistic success but a commercial failure. It's a little bit like your show on Broadway that gets critically acclaimed but nobody goes to them. So it's, yeah, it was an, I'll file that away in experimental.

Taylor (16:05.479)
Mm-hmm.

Taylor (16:19.973)
Right.

Taylor (16:30.647)
Yeah, that's what I like about you. You were always willing to try to experiment in different things. Do you mention microgreens? I kind of want to maybe just touch on your method of growing microgreens. What is your process for growing them? And why is it the right one in your mind?

Robin (16:52.032)
Um.

Robin (16:54.766)
So the system that I have for growing microgreens is essentially based on trays. So what we might call float trays, ebb and flow trays, whatever you want to call them. So I have five or six levels in a reachable height, so up to maybe seven feet.

something like that. And then I have a reservoir underneath and the reservoir just pumps up and then it just cascades down from one level to the other. And I set the timers to do that once or twice a day. And in the ebb and flow trays, we have normal, what I would call propagation trays, the 10 by 20 type of propagation trays.

Taylor (17:42.311)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (17:53.846)
And they are maybe half an inch, a little bit more than half an inch full of coca-cola, which does not provide any nutrient, just provides a structure on which the seed can root. And what I tried to do is I tried to have each tray

Taylor (18:02.413)
Hmm.

Robin (18:24.834)
the same variety of microgreens grown at the same time. Try, not always succeed, but try. Which means each of these trays, I think they are two by four or something like that. They can fit four of these 10, 20 trays in. And you can set up a system and you can see these things online. You don't need to be a rocket scientist.

Taylor (18:33.851)
Hmm.

Robin (18:55.799)
and I'm living proof.

Taylor (18:56.243)
I mean, you built, you didn't buy a system that was pre-built. You, I mean, you cut all the irrigation pipes yourself and you basically bought all the pieces at Home Depot. I mean, it wasn't, it's no simple task to set up what you've set up in there.

Robin (19:13.490)
That's somewhat true. I mean, if you're coming into it cold, it looks imposing. Once you've done it once, it's very simple. Furthermore, you can actually go out and buy a very similar system to the one I built, commercially now. Obviously, you pay more than if you do it yourself. But.

Taylor (19:37.243)
Right.

Robin (19:41.954)
Time is money too, right? So people may choose to go down that route. Basically, you get a racking system. And I used, gosh, what do they call it? PVC coated wire shelving. There's a particular name for them, I can't remember. They're used in the restaurant industry anyway. And I just assembled them with multiple levels.

Taylor (19:59.867)
Mm-hmm.

Taylor (20:05.083)
Right.

Robin (20:11.758)
One of the keys, if you're going to do this commercially, one of the keys is to make sure that your spacing is correct on the levels, because the goal is to maximize the output from this very small footprint. So the difference between four levels and five levels is 25%. I mean, that assumes you can sell it.

Taylor (20:27.856)
Right.

Taylor (20:36.071)
All right.

Robin (20:41.390)
kind of math, it's fairly obvious, but it's amazing to me how many people don't kind of take that old ball and go, oh, we can do three levels, screw that. Get the maximum number of levels that you can relative to the type of crop you're growing. And to come to lighting for a second, one of the great advantages is the LED lights.

Taylor (20:57.137)
Right.

Robin (21:11.158)
is that they can be right on top of the canopy and not burn the plant. If you've got fluorescence, forget it, it's not gonna happen. So one of the, people always talk about fluorescence versus LEDs, but one of the things they forget is with fluorescence, you need more space. And that's more space on each level, which means you might end up with one less level. So yeah, you save on the lights, but your system overall is less productive.

Taylor (21:41.783)
Right, in the front end you do, and then also over, if you consider the energy savings, that's a whole nother thing, right?

Robin (21:41.922)
That makes sense.

Robin (21:46.302)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what I'm addressing is the thing that people forget about. I mean, the rest of it. Yeah, we know that.

Taylor (21:55.331)
Right. So that's your method for microgreens. How is it different than your leafy greens set up?

Robin (22:03.638)
Well, the Leafy Greens, I use a system called the crack key system, but I amended that system for my own purposes. But the basic system is the crack key system.

Taylor (22:10.983)
Mm-hmm.

Taylor (22:21.880)
Mm-hmm. What's that?

Taylor (22:26.669)
Awesome.

Robin (22:28.008)
Okay, so Kratky's system is named after a guy, a guy, I should give him his full title, I think he's a professor emeritus, actually at the University of Honolulu, I think. His full name is BJ Kratky, K-R-A-T-K-Y. And if you Google anything, or YouTube anything, you'll...

Taylor (22:42.562)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (22:55.094)
it'll come up. Basically what it is, is a system for growing crops without using an air pump. So typically what happens is in a, let's say, traditional hydroponic or aquaponic system, you'd have rafts floating on the surface of the water. There would be no air gap and therefore

Robin (23:25.222)
need air and the reason and how they get the air is you pump air into the water and then they can extract the air from that water. So what the Kratky system does in essence is if this is the raft it rests on a couple of points and it creates that air gap like here and that air gap

Taylor (23:33.543)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (23:55.130)
increases over time as the plant drinks the water underneath.

Robin (24:02.342)
And so there is no need for pumping air into the system. What you do need is you need a system of supporting a raft. So the way I did it was even by, you know, specifically made lettuce rafts with sort of beveled holes, sites or whatever you want to call them.

Taylor (24:29.147)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (24:31.882)
And I cut those down to fit into the same ebb and flow trays that I use for the microgreens. And then I put PVC pipe to run underneath it to act as spaces. And then filled it with water with nutrient in it. And the plants take up water from the nutrient.

Robin (25:01.678)
But the raft rests on these PVC pipe arrangements. So it cannot sink to the same level as the mutual. So that's.

Taylor (25:16.085)
Right.

Taylor (25:18.599)
So having that space is crucial.

Robin (25:21.310)
Yeah, because basically what that does is allows the plant roots to access air. And you can therefore get away with not having pumped air in the system. So it's a very, very different system to, you know, when you look at, you can go online and you can see this huge.

Taylor (25:35.701)
Smart.

Robin (25:46.542)
fields of rafts, they're all resting on the water level and they're having air pumped in underneath in some shape or

Robin (25:59.330)
This is the cracker system can work even at a jam jar level. So it'll work at a very small level. So if anyone's curious about it, you can go on YouTube, look at BJ Cracky and amend it for your circumstance.

Taylor (25:59.559)
Okay.

Taylor (26:21.427)
Mm-hmm. So we talked about some of your methods what okay, so what is the difference in? You know just a regular day gardener and a farmer someone who's producing plants for commercial purposes in your opinion

Robin (26:38.027)
Well, it's like somebody who enjoys cooking may enjoy preparing a meal once or twice a week at home, three times a week, seven days a week maybe. The difference between doing that and running a restaurant is quite big, I would suggest. And I think that's the difference between gardening and farming.

Essentially farming is commercial, gardening is hobby. I mean, obviously the lines can get blurred. I mean, you mentioned before that I did, or have done, continue to do a lot of experimentation. So you might call that a hobby. I would argue that it's not, but the experimental part, the 5% or 10% that's devoted to experiments.

Robin (27:33.582)
could say are a hobby, but the rest is commercial. It's got to pay for itself. So come back to the issue of the number of levels that you get in the system. If you're a hobbyist, you might go, oh, well, just a couple, three, that's okay. If you're doing it commercially, you've got to maximize those depending on what crops you're doing. And it may be different. I mean, so for example,

I think I have six levels of microgreens, but only five for the other greens. And the other greens don't have a reservoir. So the actual spacing is quite a bit bigger, but they don't have that same reservoir, because the water's not pumped through them. It's there. So the difference between gardening and farming, I think, is significant.

even if there's a bit of overlap and it's...

Robin (28:36.042)
you can sort of drift into farming through gardening, but you have to be aware that they're very different.

Taylor (28:46.759)
Okay, so you're producing plants and products at scale, at a commercial scale. So you have all these products. What do you do with them? I know you're at the Capitol Hill Farmers Market. Maybe can you talk about how you first started at the Capitol Hill Farmers Market and other farmers markets and how you scratched that entrepreneurial itch to seek out those customers?

Robin (29:14.486)
Yeah, so.

Robin (29:20.338)
I, once you start to grow at scale, then you need to figure out, I mean, the most important skill is actually not growing the crop, selling it. I mean, right? It's not immediately obvious. I mean, I got into it because I enjoy growing things and they're like, oh crap, I've got to sell it now.

Taylor (29:32.635)
Hmm.

Robin (29:46.518)
How did I get into farmers markets? Basically, it was that process. It was like, okay, I like to grow stuff and I'm now growing it at some scale. I need to see what I can do. I think you need to make, anyone needs to make a conscious choice of how they do distribution. And I mean, by distribution, I don't mean necessarily the physical part of it, but.

Robin (30:16.474)
what's the process by which it gets from the producer to the consumer. So, for example, you can grow and take to farmers markets and sell directly. The advantage is that you get, let's just say, full retail price for it. The disadvantage is you've got no clue when you

leave your farm in the morning, how much you're going to sell. And, you know, microgreens, leafy greens, edible flowers, all that kind of stuff doesn't survive too well. I mean, it'll be OK for the following day, but it won't be OK for three or four days down the week. It's not like LED lights in a box, for example. So it's perishable. So that's

Taylor (30:48.263)
Hmm.

Robin (31:13.714)
You can do the farmer's market and that's the advantage of that. You can go retail. The problem with retail is that there are complex requirements on food safety. Complex in the sense of compliance.

Robin (31:41.674)
I've been an organically certified grower. I'm no longer organically certified. We can get into that. But food safety is another sort of set of rules and regulations that you have to be in compliance with. 95% of those rules are common sense, but documenting it and doing everything to it for a small...

operation becomes a huge deal. And when you sell to your local supermarket, they may come to you, as they've done to me, and say, well, that's all very well, but we'd love to have your stuff, but you've got to go and talk to corporate. Corporate could be anywhere. I mean, and then you have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops. So personally, I'm not into selling to retail.

Taylor (32:31.114)
Hmm.

Taylor (32:41.073)
Hmm.

Robin (32:41.250)
as just the pricing you get relative to the amount of trouble you have, it's not appropriate for my scale.

Robin (32:52.454)
operation. So another thing is to sell direct to restaurants. That has actually been quite good for me, but the problem is that over time the chefs move on and then you've got to make new relationships.

Robin (33:21.546)
You know, it's appropriate for my scale of operation because I can deliver to half a dozen restaurants in a week and I pretty much know what they want. And then I can introduce new.

Robin (33:36.802)
products from experiments for them to try out and just see if it works. And then there's some other, you know, direct to retail models, which we've gone through, especially in the COVID era. Then I guess the last one is aggregators. There are people who, and I'm sure this is applicable all over the country, there are people who will.

Taylor (33:39.161)
Yeah.

Robin (34:06.838)
aggregate from a variety of smaller farms and then sell that product to the final customer. And the pricing for that and how they work and everything else. So that's, excuse me, that's different, but that's how it, those are the choices you have. And I think it depends on scale. That's the key thing. What scale you're at.

Taylor (34:18.300)
Hmm.

Taylor (34:33.883)
Key thing. And your salesmanship or your ambition, does that play a role?

Robin (34:40.382)
Yeah, it does. It's an inconvenient fact that, you know, a lot of people get into this because they like to grow stuff, but then they got to sell it. That's an inconvenient but hard truth. Another inconvenient but hard truth is that there are a lot of people in farming who farm because they don't want to do paperwork. I'm

Taylor (34:54.628)
Hmm.

Robin (35:08.598)
better than average at paperwork. So it doesn't necessarily apply to me, but the idea of sitting on a tractor for eight hours a day doesn't faze some people. The idea of sitting in front of a computer doing paperwork for eight hours a day will freak them. So you just got to be self-aware.

Taylor (35:24.347)
Hmm.

Robin (35:29.991)
what you can do, what you can't do, what you like to do, what you don't like to do, and the scale of which you're doing it. There's no one answer, is what I'm trying to say.

Taylor (35:33.111)
Right.

Taylor (35:41.335)
I wanted to get into your farmers market experience and you know, you, you have a pulse on your customer, a sense of what they're looking for. You know, what, what were some of your customers favorite products from your market and like, what were they looking for? You know, how do you stand out at a farmer's market? I guess that's my question.

Robin (36:05.294)
Well, how I've stood out has kind of evolved over time. And, you know, I don't believe you should be static. I think you should be experimenting if you like, all the time and just getting feedback, you know, or AB testing or whatever you want to call it. But you need to figure out what,

Robin (36:34.558)
is going to improve it for the following week. So for example, just how you put your stall together. I wouldn't say I'm aesthetically challenged, but I don't have a designer's eye, that's for sure either. So if you.

Robin (37:03.630)
If you've got somebody who is a designer, you know, designer and inverted comments, right? Payment systems. People get frustrated if they can't pay in whatever form they want to pay. So you've got to be able to deal with that and deal with that like in real time. So one of the things that happens is everyone starts off with this great theory about inventory control.

Robin (37:33.810)
And that's the first thing that goes out of the window, because you'll get a queue of people. And the first thought is, I've got to service these people. And the second thought is, oh dear, my inventory control system is now screwed. So I think, yeah, so you just have to prioritize that, unless you've got help. Again, it depends on your scope. And then.

Taylor (37:48.822)
Mm.

Robin (38:03.494)
The products, it very much depends on the individual. So I have individuals that would come to me and they would buy only broccoli microgreens. Only. Nothing else. Zero. And they did it because whatever. And now I've got other people who front up, regular customers I'm talking about.

Taylor (38:05.264)
Right.

Taylor (38:23.928)
Yeah.

Robin (38:33.422)
who front up and say, what's good this week? Okay, I'll have some of that and I'll have some of this. And then I have other people who are irregular, but when they do show up, they buy half the store. I mean, it's an exaggeration, but they buy a large amount of product. So that's why I was saying earlier, the problem of selling in a farmers market is, especially if you're selling a...

Taylor (38:54.774)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (39:04.450)
perishable product is forecasting what you want. Because one of the things, one of the truisms that you'll hear is that plenty sells. So if you've got a store that's full of product, people will buy. If it's getting towards the end of the day and you're now down at a quarter of the product, for some reason, people, it's like, I don't wanna buy because somebody asked me.

Taylor (39:08.560)
Right.

Robin (39:36.506)
It's kind of frustrating.

Taylor (39:37.176)
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What, what, what, what?

Robin (39:40.078)
especially if you've got perishable product you can't keep you know moving stuff out.

Taylor (39:46.879)
Let's do a quick rundown of all the stuff you've sold over the years. I know you did Shiso, Red Vein Sorrel, you did Marigolds, you did Genovese Basil. What were some other things that you were growing?

Robin (40:03.150)
Yeah, well we grew a whole bunch of different tomatoes and peppers when we were growing outside, I mean outside in the greenhouse as well. The products that I mean I enjoyed growing, I guess, enjoyed selling, people would go oh wow, is if you make mixes

Taylor (40:27.107)
Mm.

Robin (40:30.698)
and you make a mix which they can't get elsewhere.

Robin (40:38.959)
that always works well. And sometimes a restaurant would ask, well, could we have this and this and this? So then it becomes the restaurant mix. And you can then sell that as well in the local farmers market. So the other thing about mixes is that portion control is not one of my strengths.

sure, but is variable in a mix. So if it's 20% DICOM sprouts, for example, or shoots, you can make it 15% one day, 25% the next day. And it doesn't really matter. So it's a good way of aggregating inventory if you've got too much of something and not enough of something else. So yeah.

Taylor (41:36.059)
Did... yeah.

Robin (41:37.985)
And I always like to have one thing.

Robin (41:43.314)
on the table that people go, what on earth is that? Because that and color, color attracts people. So I would always have edible flowers and I'd always have something that's slightly unusual because if somebody comes up and they're kind of like, give me something that I can go home and boast about.

That's essentially what it is. Then you can give them that.

Taylor (42:16.648)
Does this story help at all? Like, oh, this is the chef at the W. This is his favorite selection of micro greens and leafy greens. This is what all the top chefs are using, or this is what this guy does, or this girl does. Does that help at all to have a story there?

Robin (42:34.886)
Yeah, and a lot of times it's a question of people will go, well, for example, I've heard of Shiso, but I have no idea how to use it. And so then you explain to them different ways that they might use it. And they go, oh, oh, never even thought of that. Okay, well, give me one or two or whatever. And let me try it out.

Robin (43:05.098)
And so they do. And I think that certainly, because people like to come away with some knowledge, that's my theory anyway, and they like to, if it's a regular carrot, what kind of carrot is it? And what is something that you can do with a carrot beyond boil it or steam it or whatever, right? How can you incorporate that into a meal in a non-traditional way? Because then they like to show off.

inverted commas and they say oh well I learned this and blah blah blah and I bought this product at you know whatever right and that just feeds into the way people work

Taylor (43:50.503)
That's great. I mean, so we touched on a few things. We touched on the specifics of growing microgreens in a hydroponic system, as well as the challenges of doing so indoors, outdoors. We touched on the differences between gardening and farming and your experience in the farmers markets. So I appreciate all that. I know you're a worldly fellow. You lived overseas in Japan. And you also, you know,

We talked about how you do business in Africa. Maybe before we get into what your plans, if they are any for hydroponics overseas, but how did you get into this world and what can you share? What's some interesting tidbits of your life?

Robin (44:37.618)
Um, I, one of my many personality faults is that I get bored quite easily. And, um, I traveled for a bit.

Robin (44:58.094)
before I graduated from college. And it was a time I grew up in the UK. And it was a time in the UK when things were not good, economically, I mean. And I just thought, you know, looking around, I don't want any part of this. And I just found a way out basically.

and I bluffed my way into a company and they hired me and that job involved a lot of travel, a lot of international travel, I mean, and it involved living overseas and I've moved a bunch of times amongst countries overseas and my wife and family have moved with me. So yeah, I was

Robin (45:58.366)
It was partly, yeah, I was at some of all those parts, I think. And in terms of Africa, I had not sort of done any significant business in Africa during my sort of corporate career. But I got involved about three years ago, four years ago, maybe.

Robin (46:28.522)
in Africa. And I quickly realized that the key element in anywhere, but especially in Africa is you've got to know people, and you've got to find people that you can trust. The society works in a different rhythm than we're used to. Same as Japan works to a different rhythm. So you've got to figure out how

how the society works. But the key element, in my opinion, is to find people that you can trust and work with them. Trust means not necessarily give them your wallet and walk away. I don't mean that. I mean people that you can rely upon to do what you ask them to do or what they say they're going to do.

Robin (47:22.823)
It's challenging, it's interesting, but there's a huge, huge opportunity, I believe, generally in agribusiness in Africa. And obviously, I'm at the wrong end of my age spectrum to make full use of that. But what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to pass on whatever knowledge I have.

Taylor (47:35.748)
Yeah.

Robin (47:51.342)
accumulated to people in Africa who can use that information. And the key restriction, if you like, is access to capital. So we're we're we're setting up a farm right now in Zambia, which will basically provide feed mix.

Robin (48:20.674)
for small livestock, so pigs on down, pigs, goats, chickens, whatever. The numbers are very interesting. The hurdle we have to get through is getting the capital. So if any of the listeners out there think that sounds like a project that they could be interested in, we can offer very good terms on it. So they can contact me through you, however.

Robin (48:51.815)
Yeah, so

Taylor (48:51.867)
We'll share the link to anything you want to share after the show.

Robin (48:57.474)
Sure. Yeah, so it's, you know, there are, I mean, I was listening to another podcast interview the other day. There's a guy called, I think his name is Loonie Levis, he's based in Seattle. And he has a business called Africa Eats, which is an agribusiness holding company in Africa. And people can look up that podcast as well. It's on regenerative agriculture.

dot com, I think. But yeah, I mean, there's huge opportunities there if you can provide the capital and knowledge. And that's what I'm not providing a lot of capital, but I am trying to provide whatever knowledge I have accumulated over the years. So it's not specific to hydroponics. I mean, hydroponics is really a first world issue.

Taylor (49:27.344)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (49:55.346)
It's very expensive real estate and how to get the most production and how to get it hyper local.

Taylor (49:55.367)
Mm-hmm.

Robin (50:09.656)
The situation in Africa is much more basic in terms of basic services and needs. The cost of labor is a lot, lot lower and the cost of capital is a lot, lot higher. So you have to, I mean, bank loans are 15% minimal.

Taylor (50:35.716)
Hmm.

Robin (50:37.935)
And I'm relating to that to, let's say, a commercial loan in the US before the current interest rate might be seven, maybe. It's at least double and probably triple. So the cost of capital is much higher. Cost of labor is much lower. But there are a lot of people who are technically very competent.

Robin (51:07.172)
who are reliable, who are trustworthy. It's just a question of identifying those keeping an eye on it basically.

Taylor (51:12.933)
Hmm

Taylor (51:17.691)
So you have operations happening in Seattle, you have operations coming soon to Zambia. Are there any other future plans for keeping gardening in your life?

Robin (51:29.826)
Gardening, maybe. Farming, yeah. Farming, I think I'm at a point where I think the sort of what I might call the Zambian model is more appropriate, where I can use whatever gray cells I've got left to help people rather than slowly declining physical capability.

Taylor (51:31.579)
Farming.

Robin (51:59.902)
So I think that's, whether it's in Zambia or another African country or Seattle or wherever, I mean that's not the main issue there. Yeah, so you see there are a lot of opportunities, that's for sure.

Taylor (52:19.119)
Well, you know, I appreciate your story and everything you've told us today. I kind of want to leave it off with one question, you know, what would you say to someone wanting to start a farm, whether they're going to go sell at a farmer's market, go to a restaurant owner or. You know, the two, the few other options you mentioned, what would you say to that person on the fence about starting?

Robin (52:39.838)
Um, know yourself. That's the first one. Because, um, if you're the kind that loves to experiment and is really a hobbyist, um, stick to your day job and garden as a hobby. Um, if you've got that itch that you really have to go farming.

Good for you. Number one. Number two.

Robin (53:15.766)
don't forget that you actually have to sell your product. A lot of people get into farming to escape paperwork or because they like to grow things or whatever. But at the end of the day, you have to sell what you produce. Otherwise, you get no income. And I did not fully realize that going in.

Robin (53:43.271)
So I think that's really important. That's really the step between gardening as a hobby and farming as a business. I mean, a lot of the stuff is scale, at least up to the amount of one or two people can do in a given period of time. But you've got to sell these things.

Taylor (54:07.227)
But you did scale up. I mean, you...

Robin (54:09.674)
or find someone to sell it for you.

Taylor (54:12.203)
Yeah, well, I mean, you bootstrapped, you had some support from the private person, but you know, people love you and they loved your product and I saw you at the markets and I saw the way people reacted to you. So you looked like you knew what you were doing and you know, you only improved. So

Robin (54:30.654)
Yeah, well, you can fool some of the people all the time. You know, that's, that's, yeah. But I mean, if you, there's no danger of me lecturing anyone on nuclear fusion or something. But, but when it comes to different varieties of tomato, maybe I could contribute to that. So yeah, I mean, you know your product, but, and if you're genuinely excited about it, I think that's, that's good. I...

I personally like the farmer's market because I like interacting with fellow producers. They could be a honey producer or a flower person or whatever. And they come from all walks of life. They all have their own issues. They all have their own hopes and dreams. It's very, very interesting. And for the people that don't...

Robin (55:29.458)
regularly buy at a farmers market, I would encourage them to do so because you will run across producers who are very passionate about what they do. And generally speaking, the products that are available in the farmers market are not available in your standard grocery store. So it's kind of pointless, in my opinion, to go and buy corn, for example, at a farmers market.

But any kind of specialty crops, you can get at a farmers market, and you will get at a higher quality. And you can talk, generally speaking. You can talk to the producers direct. Or if they have salespeople who work there, they are very knowledgeable about their product too. They're not sitting there scanning their phones for social media or something.

Taylor (56:27.612)
I don't know about the corn thing. I grew up in northern Wisconsin and there would be this lady who would come to our town in Eco River and bring sweet corn out of the back of her truck. I remember being some of the best corn I ever tasted. It wasn't from the big supermarket, but I get your point.

Robin (56:43.182)
Oh, yeah. No, no. I mean, yeah, it's that there's a cost issue. There's a quality issue, right? I guess I'm looking at it from a growers point of view where, you know, corn is already at the same time. And, you know, the price goes, pshhow. And then, right, yeah, yeah.

Taylor (57:03.095)
Right, it was only this one time a year that I got that we could get it. That's why. Right?

Taylor (57:10.971)
Well, Robin, you know, it's been so awesome to talk to you. We touched on so many things. I mean, you're, you know, you travel the world, you're selling locally, you're expanding, you know, you're thinking outside the box. So we really appreciate you sharing everything that you have today. And I hope we can keep in close contact on what you're up to next. And, you know, again, I really appreciate your friendship and helping me out with all the things I did with lighting tests and stuff like that. So again.

Robin (57:38.998)
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. I don't know what we learned, or I don't know what I learned. But hopefully it was of use to you. Yeah, so it's very interesting long conversations about deep reds and blue spectrum. And are we replicating spring or autumn here, that kind of thing. And I've.

Taylor (57:40.443)
Hahaha

Taylor (57:49.231)
We put out some good videos now.

Taylor (57:58.125)
Yeah.

Taylor (58:06.071)
of working.

Robin (58:07.838)
Work in progress, yeah, but for sure, there is light at the end of that tunnel because once you start to grow, I mean, you know, once you start to dig deeper, for example, basil and the oils that give the basil the flavor, that can be stimulated by different light spectrum. So it's not simply a matter of growing.

Like the biggest plant in the fastest time is the point of getting the most flavorful output as well.

Taylor (58:38.649)
Right.

Taylor (58:44.771)
Right, and we're gonna keep doing those experiments and improving and share it with all of you guys. So thanks for listening today and thank you again, Robin, and wish you all the best.

Robin (58:59.534)
Good, good talk to you, as usual. Thank you.

Taylor (59:01.967)
All right, thank you, sir. Bye.