S2 Ep 2: 'How mindfulness can support our clinical practice' featuring Katie Sheen Dip.ION, FdSc, PGCE, MA Education

Katie Sheen is a mindfulness teacher and speaker, a nutritional therapist, and has a Masters degree in education. 

She shares her experiences using mindfulness with nutrition clients – how mindfulness can help with making nutritional changes, and how nutritional support can help with being more settled and mindful. “It’s a fascinating two-way street we can offer people”

Katie also shares how mindfulness and self-compassion helped her deal with her own cancer diagnosis, treatment and recovery.

“And what was amazing was that in that moment I thought: My poor body… my poor body… I can see how much it’s suffering. And again, what a gift to be able to switch immediately into compassion, rather than fear – and there definitely was fear, I’m not going to pretend there wasn’t fear, there was fear as well, but the fear wasn’t of my own body. And that was one of those doorways for me into really taking care of myself.”

Themes include deep listening, compassionate speech, how to become more self-aware and use that to showing kindness and care to ourselves.

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CPD events combining nutrition and mindfulness offered by Katie as part of the Pharma Nord UK Education Team are summarised here.

Katie’s pre-recorded ‘Mindfulness for Anxiety’ course has reached almost 4,000 people in 116 countries. You can discover more about this and the live, Zoom based ‘Mindfulness for Health’ 8 weeks (2 hours a week) course for practitioners and the public here. 

Other resources we discussed: 

Dr.Kristin Neff 

Dr.Chris Germer 

Prof.Paul Gilbert - the Compassionate Mind Foundation 

The Center for Mindful Eating

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The IHCAN magazine Podcast is produced by IHCAN magazine. For more information, and to start your subscription, visit www.ihcan-mag.com. 

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The IHCAN magazine Podcast is provided for professional education and debate and is not intended to be used by non-medically qualified individuals as a substitute for, or basis of, medical treatment.

Transcript

Speaker 2

Hi, I'm Kirsten, Chick nutritional therapist and author, and I'd like to welcome you to series two of the ICAN Magazine podcast on today's episode. I'm joined by mindfulness and nutrition teacher Katie Sheen. Hi, Katie. Lovely to have you on the podcast.

Speaker 1

It's lovely to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me. Wonderful to see you.

Speaker 2

Pleasure. So we are talking today about how mindfulness can support our clinical practise both for our clients and for ourselves. So first of all, how would you define mindfulness?

Speaker 1

Ohh that is really tough, isn't it? Cause it's so broad and so deep. So I would say mindfulness is awareness. Just that one word is a kind of direct translation from the original Pali word, so you are always mindful of something and. That it shows as well that it's not just about meditation. So mindfulness is a way of living. It's a way of being in the world, a way of responding to the world. And the the basic way that I think about the process of mindfulness is, is that we calm ourselves down so that we can hear things and see things more clearly. And that clarity means that then we can see different ways to act, and that brings around transformation. So I think one of the challenges for mindfulness, if you like, is that it's often introduced to people just at that first level of the calming and stopping. And nobody goes after that. It's it's so people see it just as a relaxation technique or just as a meditation. But actually that is just the beginning, and it's that awareness of ohh I'm feeling anxious today. OK, So what do I need to do about that? Well, if I. Can calm see things more clearly. Down regulate. My nervous system. Now I can look at why I'm anxious, what is driving my anxiety? What am I saying in my head? What's happening? How am I reacting to that? That and then when you see it clearly, you just oh. I can do. Something so also mindfulness is very active. You know, it's really engaging with life rather than denying it or running away from it so. There you go. I started with a really short summary and now I've gone into a massive one, haven't I so.

Speaker 2

That's beautiful. I mean, it's not just a sticking plaster, is it? And to all of those people that say ohh, I can't do meditation like my head's too busy and everything that you've just described shows that it's not about that.

Speaker 1

No, and I mean that. Is it's impossible to not think about anything. This idea of clearing your mind is not realistic, and I would say that one of the amazing things about mindfulness is that it teaches us to. Be kinder to ourselves. So when you sit down to meditate, you think, right, I'm going to focus on my breath. And you can manage that well, I don't. Maybe other people are better than I'm about 3 breaths. And then you think ohh this is good. It's going well. Well, now you've lost your confidence. So you have to. Have a real sense of humour as well. I mean learning to smile at ourselves. Just see how how funny we are and what our mind does. And you just like, Oh my goodness, my, our, our minds are like a puppy. You know, they're so interested in life. And of course, a lot of that is driven by the survival instinct. So our mind is always leaping off to cheque the horizon. To make sure that we're safe and coming back with like ohh I'm not sure about this, I'm not sure. Like that and I think where it's really challenging for us is where we really believe those thoughts. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, yes, you're right. This is instead of going well. Yeah. Thanks Puppy for bringing this back to me. But me as a stable person in this body. In the present moment can see this thought. This awareness you've brought to me and now. I have a choice. Use because I can either go with what you've shown me or actually I can reassure you and say ohh no, I think that's fine. You know, so that it's what I'm describing. There, of course, is the difference between the amygdala, the part of our brain, the reptilian brain that just drives us, which is a horrible feeling, isn't it? To be driven or pushed or pulled around through life and the frontal cortex, where we're actually able to say ohh I can see this is a thought. So that's called meta awareness or metacognition in the world of kind of the academic side of mindfulness. If you like being able to see. That our thoughts are just thoughts, they're not necessarily true is a real liberation. And I love that.

Speaker 2

And that, that, that. I'm glad you brought it to the academic side because it has actually been really well studied, hasn't it?

Speaker 1

Ohh hugely yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you go on PUB Med and pop in mindfulness and then whatever condition your client has, there'll be something that comes up and particularly when you start to look at the mechanisms that drive disease, so things like inflammation, you know there is there are loads of studies that show that mindfulness. And reduce things like C reactive protein or tuna krosis factor A. Well, all of those things that we see on. Clinical lab tests. Mindfulness can help so many of those, and of course the gut brain link is incredibly well researched now, isn't it? You know that's that's even something that the general public can talk to us about. So mindfulness is a way where we can say absolutely, you know, if we can. Harm the nervous system, then that sends messages. Well, I mean, you're an expert in this through the through the vagus nerve to heart, to lungs, to digestive system has a huge effect. And yeah. In studies, going back to the 19 late 1970s.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And it, you know, it makes sense once we start to put it all together, doesn't it? It's we we know that fight flight freeze. We've we've known for a long time how that response affects all the different systems in our bodies, so it makes perfect sense that something that can take us away from that place. And back into that calm, centred less amygdala focused and self. Can undo a lot of that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. And also on a really practical level, I don't know if you sometimes find this in clinic, but you are really listening to your clients. So obviously you're using mindful awareness to put aside. You're in a chatter of ohh my goodness. Do I know what to do? And what about this? And what about that you can put that aside. So as a practitioner, you can use it to be really present. So mindfulness is called deep listening, and obviously you then use compassionate speech so you're really aware of how you're talking to them, how to motivate them. But when you're working with some clients, you can see that they're so caught in their thinking. That they're going to really struggle to comply with your suggestions. And I always think it's a fascinating interplay between sometimes you can look at the client, you think, do you know what until I put in some adrenal support, some basic nutrition and you know, kind of clean up their diet. They're not going to be able to engage. With anything including mindfulness, because I need to help them on a physical level. And there's so much we can do for that. And then once you've kind of steadied them using food and supplements and all that, we know now they're in a place where maybe they can engage with something like mindfulness. And now you're starting a really positive cycle where everything is supporting each other and you're looking at the much broader. Picture. But if somebody is. Really hugely stressed, they may not be able to sit and eat three meals a day, or to find time to do what you're suggesting. So for some clients it's introducing the microphone and just say listen just every night as you get into bed, just listen to a body scan, a deep relaxation and just do that. For a week or so, and when you wake up in the morning and you get that horrible adrenaline rush and that, uh feeling of the day crashing in just resting breath in bed, just notice the rise and fall of your body as you breathe and just wait for that surge of adrenaline to settle. Once it's settled now start your day. From that settled place and as often as you can remember, during the day, just notice your belly breathing your feet on the floor. Bring the weight into your body, just settling, settling, settling. And for some people, they'll need to do that first before they'll even remember to take the supplements. And as we all know, supplements don't have any effect if they're still in the bottle, they need to get into the person, don't they? Which is a real challenge sometimes. And also people need to get the food that you've suggested, you know, even off the supermarket shelf is the first bit. Are they able to choose the right thing? But you know, you're so right with what you said is that if they're caught in fight or flight or freeze, they're not going to be able to think straight enough in order to help themselves. So I think it's a fascinating 2 way St that we can offer people is. Food supplements, you know, mindfulness, which comes first. Ideally, they all come.

Speaker 2

And also if they're in fight or flight, their digestive system is going to be downgraded. So even if they do make it, to get that lovely food on out of the supermarket onto their plate and even into their mouths, they're not going to be digesting it as effectively.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It it's all completely connected. And I think with each person, one of the things is to just try and find their, I think of it as a doorway, so. I've and so I've got a masters degree in education, so I'm I've been taught about educational theory and that's why I'm a teacher. So part of that is. I love this concept called a threshold concept. And the idea of a threshold concept is is that there are doorways that we can open and we can kind of peep in first. But once we step over the threshold, we see the world in a different way. And you can't undo that. And I think it's really interesting when we all meet each other as practitioners. I think we've all got a moment. Where we're like. Suddenly, we thought about food differently, or suddenly we thought about health differently or the way we approached that world. And so when I'm with a client, I'm looking for those doorways. That they're already aware of there, and maybe they've kind of peeped in, or maybe they can step through and then helping them to step through that doorway so that then you get that transformation that never leaves them. And that's really amazing thing about what we can all do, isn't it? You know that moment when somebody. Comes back and goes. Ah, I get it. That wonderful moment where. Where they feel as though they have a bit. More choice in the. World. Yeah, it's really special, isn't it?

Speaker 2

Really special and I I want to link back some of what you just said with some of what you said earlier as well and that the, UM, the mindfulness that you know having, I often encourage people to just have a couple of or three mindful mouthfuls at the beginning of each meal is what I I often recommend. Or snack and it's it's a way of sneaky. Being little moments of mindfulness into the day, but also it's a way of preparing their body to actually digest that food. It's saying, OK, we're going to come the nervous system down, wake the digestive system up, say hey, come on. This food coming because we've we're suddenly aware that there's this food here, so it it can wake the digestive system up. So it's a very simple thing to serve all of those. Courses. But then it it's a doorway thing as well, so some people go on to find that actually those few seconds are so important that they go on to find a mindfulness course such as yours and integrate it more into their their way of life. And then also harking back to something you said earlier as well. About how then they can start to listen to their bodies a little bit more because they're settled into their bodies, so making different decisions about what to eat and how to eat and and how much to eat. Is is that something you've? I'm sure you've experienced that as well with your two worlds. You're fitting the nutrition and mindfulness world.

Speaker 1

Completely, completely. And I've always had a real fascination with supporting people with anxiety and also with disordered eating. And one of the really important aspects of mindfulness is is self compassion. And that really transforms things, and I absolutely speak from personal experience here is so the work of people like Kristin Neff and Chris Germer and Paul Gilbert, who all specialise in that part of mindfulness, are just absolutely invaluable, because if we learn to be kinder.

Speaker

To ourselves.

Speaker 1

Then you take care of yourself from a deep place of I'm going to. Use the word. Love some people might find that awkward, and they may think of it more as a friendship, a deep friendship. But the way that you would care for someone else, you know, if you were caring for. Somebody else. You wouldn't just slam only old thing. The table in front of them in the same way that if you were dressing someone else. You would take great care and you would actually talk to them and say, oh, what do you fancy wearing today and all this is your favourite shirt, isn't it? And being just really careful, and if you were helping them to bathe, you would just be doing it with such care and attention. And so self compassion is. Doing that for ourselves. That real, concrete sense of being our own best friend, and again, with that bit of sense of humour. So when you wake up in the morning, you know that idea of saying to yourself morning, which is for me is really I'm not a morning person. So that voice. Like ohh, here we go. Right. OK. They're like. Do you fancy a? Brew and it just having that internal dialogue which is friendly and supportive. Rather than the inner critic, and that whole managing the inner critic is something that I find fascinating. But switching that around so that you're in a dialogue is very much like, oh, you feel a bit hungry now. You know, what do you fancy? What we can do this and what we gotta do and that inner dialogue. Changes things because then you take care of yourself from, not from a point of. I should do this. I should do that. Because then we're just feeding into the whole idea of control. Well, and am I good enough? Am I failing? Am I, you know, and I think that that's very important for us as practitioners because I would suggest that most of us have been in a situation where actually all that we know about food feeds, food, anxiety. You know, I think we've all been there. We were like, ohh no, like, barbecue. And I know what barbecued food isn't great and. And then you know, you're given something like, oh, this is all full of additives and and suddenly the whole, the whole, not just of the eating experience, but your whole experience of life in that moment and the social situations around it can become very anxiety inducing. So there's something there for all of us about learning to be kind to ourselves. Particularly around food, but in the whole of life, and it can also spill over into exercise of course, of rather than thinking ohh should do this because it's good for insulin resistance and this that and the other are thinking actually I really want to take care of my body. And that's why I want your exercise, and that's why I want to eat this stuff, because it's an expression. Of caring. So that whole area of self compassion I think is really important. And also I would suggest that if somebody. Doesn't like themselves. How are they going? To start to take care of themselves. You know, so we can give them as many suggestions as we want. But if their if their mind is filled with a narrative, that's. Putting themselves down and tripping themselves up all the time. Then they are putting themselves into that stress response, aren't they? You know our own. Can trigger a stress response. My goodness, we're experts at it, aren't we? You know, we're so quick to criticise ourselves. So learning to work with that. On a multitude of levels that can support our clinical practise I think is really important. So so I use. Actually, I may not start there, but very quickly I move into the realms of self compassion because I think it's so transformative for people and and that as I mentioned, those are the authors that I would go to people like Christine Neff, Chris Germer, Paul Gilbert.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that sounds amazing. And you also touched on self compassion for ourselves as. As nutrition therapists or functional medicine practitioners, whatever we're doing, we also need to have that level of care for ourselves. It's easy to fall into traps once we Start learning things.

Speaker 1

Definitely. And to go back to that original definition of mindfulness that used of awareness, awareness is so useful for switching ourselves out of an intellectual understanding. I mean, intellectually every practitioner say ohh yes, I need to take care of myself. But knowing it intellectually. And really feeling it, and therefore living in that way, two separate things, aren't they? And I think we all can engage with a with a concept first. About her. But so where the awareness comes in is thinking to ourselves, OK, well, I know that I should take care of myself and I know that I struggle with that. So for the next couple of weeks, I'm just going to be aware. Of what is going on for me, So what am I thinking? What is my inner voice saying? What are my habit energies that push me to act in certain ways? So without trying to change anything, we're just becoming more aware. We're getting to know ourselves better. So the analogy is is that when you first meet somebody and say it's a client, you know with a client, you're going to take a whole health history, you're going to try and understand them. So again, it's something we're familiar with, but maybe we. Don't do enough for ourselves. But this gentle, gentle ohh that's interesting. Why am I? Thinking this and I describe some of those thoughts as being a bit like whispers. Because there's so much a part of who we are that we. Can't see them clearly. And quite often I I my my and this is where mindfulness is a lifetimes worth of practise. It's fascinating cause just as you think. Ohh now I can see and I understand myself more. Then suddenly there's another thing anywhere. Oh my goodness. I never saw that. Where has that come? From and then once you can see these things more clearly and understand them more deeply, then you can work with them. So I'll give you a really practical example. So. I'm a real 110% kind of person. I really throw heart and soul into everything I do and I love that side of me, but it can also really trip me up because it's easy to burn out. And one of the things that I notice in my head is that I think, oh, I'm getting a bit tired and my brain goes, I'll tell you what. We'll just do this one more thing, then we'll rest. Like, really? I just couldn't hear that clearly. Initially, they're.

Speaker

Like, hang on a.

Speaker 1

Minute. Every time I think I'm a bit tired. That's what my mind. Does it says? I have to do one more thing. And so I would just kind of notice that for a bit and then I thought, I wonder if I just. I wonder what happens if I just go? No, no, really. Before I do that, I'm just going to sit down for 5 minutes whole 5 minutes. Imagine that you know, or if somebody can phone me a friend that's in trouble. Well, I'll be on the phone to them for an. Hour no problem, but the thoughts sitting down and just resting for 5 minutes. I have to really consciously work against that habit, energy. I'm 56 that's been around a long time. So being aware of my thoughts and hearing them means that I can just say, yeah, I hear you. We are going to do that, but actually I'm. Going to. Sit down for 5 minutes and when I sit down for 5 minutes, how amazing I feel better. But but to know that in my heart that if I if I do what I don't really want to do, which is rest for 5 minutes, I can then do the next task more effectively. But I have to have done it to have felt it to have really start to engage. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2

It's like completely complete sense. And then that's, you know, the benefits for our own physical and mental well-being. And obviously then we're much. Better practitioners because we're we're more focused and we have another layer of wisdom that we can share now. So it's you know it's such a win, isn't it?

Speaker 1

Absolutely. And you make a really important point. There is, is that the reason that I love people in our profession is because. Well, I haven't met anyone yet that hasn't had their own level of suffering. Everyone you meet has got a story of what brought them into this profession, and it all stems from this real, beautiful thing is that everyone could say I suffered. I went through a difficult time and I found that nutrition changed me. And therefore I trained, and therefore I'm bringing to the world a felt experience of healing. On whatever level that has been for them. But I think that what we therefore have to recognise is that we have to continue to learn in that way, like, don't let that be just one moment that brought that was like your initial thing that brought you into practise, continue to practise. With taking care of yourself, and then you'll have more and more and more knowledge and experience to bring to your clinical practise. And there were there are a couple of key things that people have said to me over the years that. Have really helped. One is you have to breathe in as well as breathe out your balance because it does, doesn't it? And and I really find that helpful is that if I'm always giving to other people. And not taking a breath in. I'm gonna run out of breath. Yeah. And the other idea that I love, which was to do with self compassion, is that if I am kind to myself, eventually I'll be so full of that kindness that it can spill out. To help other people.

Speaker 2

Wow, that's a really lovely image.

Speaker 1

Isn't it beautiful?

Speaker 2

Yeah, really lovely. Now I know you have your own powerful story, tea. And I also know now from speaking to you that that's not been the end of your learning. You haven't gone right. I've got the story. I'm going into practise. End of you're still, you know, deepening your learning all of the time. Of yourself and and everything that you're doing. But let's go back to that powerful story because I think it is an important one. And if you're happy. To share it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, of course. Of course. So. I'm going to go back even further actually, to the thing that brought me to. Mindfulness was my sister's husband, was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer when he was only 30 years old and she was 3 months pregnant with their second child and the world fell apart and I needed to try and make sense of that. And in those days, secular mindfulness wasn't really a thing in the UK, and so I picked up all sorts of different stuff. And the thing that resonated me was a book on Zen Buddhism, and it was a whole new way of looking at the. And that's what started my journey with mindfulness. And that was over 20 years ago. So when I was then diagnosed with cancer and this was way after Paul had had died, he died at 35. And so I was diagnosed with cancer in November 2014. And having seen my family lose Paul, that obviously hit all sorts of buttons for me, not just about my own mortality, but about what it would do to my family. Having seen them suffer before. But I was so grateful that my mindfulness practise was so strong. So in that moment when I was diagnosed with cancer, my brain without me doing it. Consciously just went. Well, just find your breathing. Just just breathing your belly. And just find that steady place. And it was so familiar, because I've been doing it for so many years. And just from that steady pace place just allow your emotional response to happen. And the thoughts would come into my mind and I go like, well, that's an interesting thought and just embrace that really take care of that and then allow it to pass. And then here's another reaction. And here's another one. And here's another one and wow. That's a really scary thought. And that's normal and natural. And I'm just human like everyone else having that experience of a cancer diagnosis which has happened to millions of other people. And so that sense of common humanity as well. And then I was able to be aware of the consultant who was making the diagnosis. So I was diagnosed with anal cancer, which is a really unusual form of cancer. It's just as painful as it sounds, and it's it's it's actually a type of skin cancer. So it's one that eats into you rather than forming a. And so on. The colonoscopy, the camera turned around and I could see this kind of gaping wound and bleeding. And that was one of the signs was the bleeding. And what was amazing was in that moment, I thought my poor body. My poor body. I can see how much it's suffering and again, what a gift to be able to. Switch immediately into compassion rather than fear, and there definitely was fear. I am not going to pretend there wasn't fear. There was fear as well. Now, but the fear wasn't of my own body. And that was one of those doorways for me. One of those doorways into really taking care of myself. And I was also able to notice the compassion the the consultant was amazing. She just kind of, you know, obviously took off her gloves and covered me up and all of that kind of. Stuff. And then she came round and. Held my hand and I just said it's cancer, isn't it? And she said we have to wait for. The biopsy results. And but you could see in her eyes and in the way she held my hand how much she. Wanted me to survive. And that was the real moment. Because we get so caught up in life, don't we have? Aspiring to be something and achieve something rather, but in that moment, none of that mattered. She did she'd we'd never met each other before. Very weird way to meet somebody. Colonoscopy. But all of that, she just you know that real human to human as I want you to. Be well, I want you to suffer less and that's what compassion is all about, suffering less, whether it's compassion for other people or compassion for ourselves. And we can bring that into our clinical practise and I think we all do, but only if we can put aside our own nervousness about am I good enough, am I going? To say the right thing. Is like if you can just in your clinical practise, look at that person in front of you and just think I'd really like you to suffer less and I am here for you. They'll really feel that they'll really feel that, and I think that's the wonderful thing about the clinical skills that we're all taught. You know, in our courses, you know, trained to eye on and you know, all of that thing about really listening deeply. You know, I I don't think we can underestimate the power of that in itself. It's very healing. But then of course, if we've listened really carefully, then we can see how we can truly help that person rather than. Coming with our own ideas of, well, this worked for me, so it's going to work for you because of course that's not always the case, is it? We're it's about finding what's right for the person. So yeah, so it was a very. Very rocky road. I had 28 sessions of radiotherapy, 2 rounds of chemotherapy through a pick line. You know where it's actually attached to you for six days at a time and and then the skin damage was so bad that I had 13 days as an inpatient in a burns unit and a very long journey with pain. To recover from that and and so it I must say, it felt like such a blessing. Such a gift, to have all of the nutritional knowledge that I had in order to heal on that physical level. Combined with the mindfulness of the compassion to be able to. Not, not detach. We don't want to detach from our experience at all, but to have a perspective on it whereby there are times when you're overwhelmed by the suffering. Definitely there were times where or literally all I could do was lay on the floor. And just think. I just need to breathe right now because the pain is so intense that I just need to breathe and allow this to pass. But that's kind of mindfulness in action, really, knowing that things were impermanent and just thinking, look, I'm just gonna breathe for a bit and then it will all change. And then it opens the door, as I say, to really taking care of yourself. So yeah, very felt experience. And so that was 2014, I'm obviously. I was treated in the spring of 2015, so kind of eight, eight happening for many years out of treatment. I am now not very. Good at that 8. Years of treatment. But as you say, it's still a lifetime of learning, so my pain is now at the level where it's very much in the background and well, the evidence based for mindfulness around pain is extraordinary. It's very strong, very, very strong about how I've managed to train my brain to say because I still bleed sometimes. And I still have low. Levels of pain. But instead of that triggering or a stress response. There's a very conscious is this normal for me or is something new where I need to seek medical advice and maybe I need to increase my protein levels? Or I didn't sleep very well or you know, so I'm tired or definitely when I'm when I've got an infection, I will bleed more because my skin will break down because obviously the. Protein is being used to support my immune system, so the technical knowledge of what we all know is nutritional therapists is, is and functional medicine practitioners is really empowering. But I also need to rest.

Speaker 2

Coming back to that again.

Speaker 1

Coming back to the resting.

Speaker 2

What you've just described, there's so much in there. There's so many gems in this one. One practise of mindfulness. And along the way from diagnosis, through treatment to the post treatment. Anxiety that can last for years and I I totally get it. I've had cancer. I work with a lot of people who have cancer or who are recovering from cancer and that health anxiety. The can last a lifetime after a cancer diagnosis. Any little niggle ohh my goodness. Is that cancer? It's a you know, some people have that without a diagnosis. But for some of us, it's a bit more real, isn't? It and to develop strategies old or to have a really amazing strategy that can see you through. Every step diagnosis. The the disease itself and the pain and and all of the emotional fallout of the disease. And then every step of the way onwards, that's an amazing thing, isn't it?

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, I'm incredibly grateful for my practise and for me that's very much about tied in with community, what we would call Sanga in mindfulness. So I'm I attend sangas every week in the Plum Village tradition. So that's the tradition of Zen master. Sitting at Han and lots. Of people have read his books. But interestingly, that's also academic because John Cabot, Zayn and mindfulness based stress reduction, mindfulness based cognitive therapy is really well recognised on the NHS by night. But being an academic like. All of us who have trained in. Nutrition. When you read his book, the introduction to one of his first books is written by Zen Master. Take that harm, I thought. Where did John Cabot? Singlet. Ohh. Well, he went on retreat with tick, not Han. And also people like Christina Feldman. So I looked out. Retreat. By Christina Feldman and went on a retreat with her and have studied in this in the Tick, not Han tradition. Plum Village because I wanted to understand how job habits in had taken parts of that. And made it as so accessible to the West. But it's the old it's the old thing, isn't it? We go back to. The primary reference and. That for me was the primary reference. And actually, I was listening to Kristin Neff on something this week, and I hadn't really. I've been listening to her for years. I hadn't realised, she said. And the first time I I sat down and did a meditation. It was led by Tick, not Han, and I'm like, I can't believe it. However far I feel as though I've strayed from plumber. It all kind. Of comes back to it, but it's very important that those teachings are expressed in different ways, that they're supported by scientific evidence, that they're seen in the light of polyvagal theory, for example. But all of it comes back to those those teachings. So yeah, that community. So I've just. Helped to organise a retreat in that tradition and, as I say I'm I'm in Sanga. So I'm I'm very much supported by a mindfulness community and the reason that I love Plum Village is because although it's definitely a Zen Buddhist tradition, it's not. It doesn't feel like a religion. You don't have to believe anything. They're very secular. The way that the groups run. And there are people there of all faiths, all cultures. However you identify. You're welcome there. It's very, very open and very joyful and playful. All. And that's been a really important learning for me because I think naturally I'm I'm quite serious and I've really, I've really noticed silly things like I've got a cat and I really love it when she plays and I think yeah, you know, I wonder if I could be more playful. And Plum Village really helps you to be more joyful, more playful. And and I was in on an online retreat with Plum Village, France, which is the main practise entry in Europe in the middle of the pandemic, was on. And I met one of the nuns through there and she asked myself and a couple of other people from the UK to stay behind. So that's a really strange thing. You get a message on zoom from a nun asking to stay behind.

Speaker

Him wrong.

Speaker 1

Exactly all of that kind of anxiety came up that. I had on my word. And anyway, she wanted us to help her improve her English so that she could teach more big international retreats. So we've been meeting on a Sunday night on zoom for the last two years. Which I never thought I would say that I meet with a Buddhist nun on a Sunday night on zoom. Who'd have thought, apart from, of course, when she's travelling with sister Chanco and on on the leading retreats. And so on. And so I've that feels like a huge gift as well, because I've got that kind of Direct Line in to. Being able to say this is my understanding, but you know have I understood correctly. Because however experience we are and like I said earlier, I mean you, I still feel as though I'm just beginning in so many ways there are so many layers. Understanding myself more deeply, understanding the teachings more deeply. You know, I listened to a fantastic talk by Paul Gilbert this week and Kristen Neff. And just like ohh they just explained self compassion in a slightly different way and I just understand it slightly differently.

Speaker 2

And that's probably what makes you so good at what you do is that you are still open to learning at every step of the way from everyone and and and at the same time. Comfortable enough to put it out there. So you've you've got a chapter in in the new book about your experience.

Speaker 1

I have. Yes, yes, that is such an honour. So yeah, there was a call, went out to the Plum Village community a few years ago for us to contribute a short story explaining how Ticknor hunts teachings have helped us. And the story that I just related to you, although in a bit more detail about my cancer diagnosis. I wrote up and and sent in and yeah, it's been accepted. So it's a book that's gonna be published in October by Parallax Press. It's called tears become rain. And there are 32 stories in it. People in 14 different countries, and I've only just seen the, you know, the the review copy of a couple of weeks ago and read the others and wow, there's just such powerful stories in there, really inspiring. And I guess to bring it back round to where. You and I began, is how do you define mindfulness and storytelling is so powerful, isn't it? And you read these stories and you just think ohh, that's what mindfulness looks like. You know that's. Because through a definition it's it's a snapshot, isn't it? It's a door. It's a doorway. Like we said, you know, cause you can hear it and think ohh. OK. That's why I would do it. But to really see and understand how people are using it in a in their lives is so powerful, and that's what the sangers do for me. So every week. We're sharing between ourselves as how we're using the meditations, how we're using the practises in everyday life, how we're living it and you know, to learn from people constantly, including the people I teach as well. You know, the very first time that somebody notices their breath and immediately says, oh, I can't do that. Not doing it right like there's judgement.

Speaker

OK.

Speaker 1

So his judgement there and you're thinking all the time, they're like, Oh my goodness, yes, there is. Well, there you go. That is enlightenment. You see it more clearly. It's so wonderful that you don't have to have practised mindfulness for more than three breaths to begin to.

Speaker 2

Then something wow. And you I. Know you interweave mindfulness into the nutrition webinars you do for Farm and Lord, and you also have your own courses. You do mindfulness for pain. Tell us a little bit more about your.

Speaker 1

Says so ioffer. The breath works mindfulness for health course, which is an 8 week course and I started offering it on zoom during the pandemic and then realised of course people can now literally join me from their bed and from all over the world. And that makes for an amazing learning experience. Being with people with all sorts of different health conditions, everything from a slightly dodgy left knee from a sporting injury that you know. Is gonna mend. 32 Parkinson's disease. And everything in between and I have a lot of health practitioners, nutritional therapists, functional medicine practitioners and also GP's come on that course. But I do it in such a way that everybody just introduces themselves with their first name and where they're joining from and they are never put into a position where they have to share. Who they are, what their profession is, what they're managing. Because the focus is on learning mindfulness. If they choose to share how they're using it in their life, that's entirely up to them. But so it's this really lovely opportunity for us as practitioners to put down. That kind of who we are and just be there for our for ourselves. So that's a live course on zoom, but I've also got a pre recorded course called mindfulness for anxiety and I recorded that couple of years before the pandemic and that has now got nearly 4000 people signed up to that. And it's being viewed in about 116 different countries. I've never realised this many countries in the world has been.

Speaker 2

It's been a good, you know, anxiety seems like a pandemic in itself at the moment, doesn't it? It's, you know, we have this very fear based society anyway.

Speaker 1

Lesson for me to see all this.

Speaker 2

It just seems to be very good at increasing anxiety levels, so something like that. It's. But we've learned to name anxiety now, haven't we a bit more?

Speaker 1

We have, but for me the only thing that I am a little bit nervous about as to where we are in that is that we seem to be stuck at the point where everyone's just saying I've got an anxiety disorder. And we need to go to the next stage of I can manage my anxiety disorder, or even I thought I had an anxiety disorder, but actually it's just anxiety that I can manage. Brilliant. So we're at that first incredibly important step of awareness. But it feels if we go back to that kind of process of mindfulness, we're on that first bit and it is so important that we can talk about it. It's so important that it's accepted, which is that second part of mindfulness. We're. Where we accept it, we don't push it away. We don't deny it, but the next stage is can I understand it more deeply and can I help to transform it? And I hope that as a society, that's the way that we're moving. But I've got every reason to be hopeful for that. There are some really inspiring people out there, so yeah, my course is my tiny little contribution that that. But it is lovely when I meet people. I met someone the other day who said, you know what, I watched your course years ago. And just a few of the because it's in like bite size, little video chunks and downloads and all that kind of thing. So there's just a few things that you said that have really stayed with me and now I'm going to come and do the mindfulness, the health course with you and I, and of course visits all and. I've no idea who's watching. What? You know they can leave feedback, but I don't really know how it's touching people so. Just spreading those or planting those seeds of mindfulness just as you so beautifully described that you're doing in your clinic with the as you sit down 3 breaths before you eat, be present for those first three mindfulness that is a seed of mindfulness that, as you said, people can. Then that will just. Grow and develop in its own time, in its own way, and when it's right for that person and I think that's a really lovely to think that we can all do that as practitioners, we do it all the time. In our clinical practise, don't we have just planting these seeds of oh, well, you could think about food like this or you could take this supplement or you could do this or that. Or how about this? And and mindfulness. You know, there are lots of easy things that even when we're. Not trained in mindfulness, we can plant a few seeds very.

Speaker 2

So one thing I'm I'm aware, I mean we could talk about this all day or week. Katie. I do want a question and and about about when mindfulness might not be so appropriate. So I've frequently come across this concept that with. Not for everybody, but some people with PTSD mindfulness practises can actually be really traumatising. What what can you tell us about that?

Speaker 1

Well, actually the evidence base for managing trauma is really strong. Mindfulness has been used a lot, particularly in war veterans in the US forces, but it has to be introduced in the right way. So there's something called trauma, sensitive mindfulness, David Treleaven or treleven is. Is one of the leaders in that, and I've done various CPD with him. I've also done CPD based at the Christie Hospital in Manchester in trauma sensitive mindfulness. So there's lots of great resources for us out. There, but one of the key things is recognising that for a lot of people coming back to their body is very challenging. But you don't have to come back to the body to be in the present moment. You can use all of your senses so it can be things that you can see or touch or hear. Hearing is really great. For me, you know, just if I find that I'm really caught in my thoughts. Like, yeah, but what can I hear in the present moment? Is there the sound of traffic people talking bird song? You know, depending on where I am, if I'm on a train, that lovely noise of the train. And that immediately sends a message, because I practised that. A message to my nervous system. If you're safe. And so it's about noticing these anchors in the present moment. That feels safe. And then that means that somebody who's very traumatised can start to settle. And you're gradually, gradually helping them to feel safe, and then they can turn towards their body very slowly, very gradually, knowing that they've got a safe place to come back to and. And yeah, echoed by. My own experience, so as I came out of hospital, I've I've went from being a public speaker, able to speak at massive conferences and teaching all over the place to UM, not being able to have the. TV on because? It's too loud and not being able to go. Into crowded spaces. And and the way that I did that was by. Constantly reassuring myself. I understand that you're traumatised, that is completely understandable. You've been through something terrifying and you still don't know if you're going to survive cause it was a year before I knew whether or not the treatment had worked. But you're. Your fear is misplaced. You know you've taken trauma from here and you're just plastering it everywhere. And I really remember a really lovely friend of mine, Allison. And and I we I said I need to hold on to you partly physically because it was I was still struggling to walk, but I really want to just go into the shopping centre and I can see a cafe and I just want to sit there. And have a cup of tea. While I am kind of panicking, my nervous system is panicking and we're just going to sit there and talk about normal stuff so that my nervous system can see that actually this is safe. And this is familiar. And so there was a real sense of taking my fear with me, very gently, literally holding Allison's arm and hold linking hands. And doing something so ohh, here is the cup in my hands. And this is tea and I like tea and this is a friend who I trust and we're in a shopping centre. And this is actually all OK and very quickly actually my mind went. Oh yeah, I remember this. This was was great.

Speaker 2

Wonderful. And then I can see how that would be a gentle, gentle journey and to eventually trusting your own body again.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you have to take. It yeah, really carefully. And I did a lot of meta meditations, a lot of loving kindness towards my. Sending it love thinking of the cells that had cancer and saying I know this is really difficult for you and I know the treatment is painful, but we've just got to get through this bit because this is the only way we can do it is by having the radiotherapy, the chemotherapy and then we're going to do everything that we know. You know, hyperbaric oxygen therapy. And I just used every complementary approach you can imagine and all of them together. And all of those wonderful practitioners who supported me and friends and family and and and you know this whole, there are so many people in the world. That care for others. We just have to reach out to them and we really allow ourselves at that moment to say I am really vulnerable right now and I need your strength to help me through. And really allow others in. That's a really big learning experience, isn't it? To be vulnerable. And to accept help and then slowly, slowly. You learn to be OK again, both physically and emotionally.

Speaker 2

Because that that vulnerability can sometimes be I I can sometimes mistake that feeling unsafe was actually learning to distinguish the two. And actually, we can feel vulnerable and be in a a safe enough place at the same time. That's a. Lovely thing, isn't it?

Speaker 1

It's beautiful. And yeah, you make a really important point. Well, really looking at how we feel, there's something called the feelings wheel. I don't know if you're the emotional words wheel. Oh, look that up. It's brilliant. The emotional words wheel. It helps in the centre. It just says things like happy or sad or angry. And then as you go out the wheel, it describes lots of different emotions. The two layers to it. So so there are. A number of different versions, but I think emotional words really is the best way. But look to find a really detailed one, and I often use that with people and with myself to. Think well when I say I'm feeling anxious. Like, what do I really mean? What's what's underlying that? Am I feeling isolated? Am I feeling scared? Am I feeling insecure? Because just as you say, is that until we can really define how we're feeling, we don't have to take care of ourselves. So for me, anxiety is often feeling insecure or unsafe. So for me, the opposite of anxiety isn't calm. That doesn't do it for me. What I need to do is build a sense of inner strength and safety and security. And that's what I'm building in my mindfulness practise, not really calm. Calm is part of it. But for me personally, it's not the right word. It's not the right thing that I'm focusing on. And so as you say, if we can really be very specific about. What is going on for me and what lies beneath that? What's beneath that? How do I take care of this? Then our mindfulness practise is also much more structured then, so it's just like when you go, you know, if you work with a personal trainer, you have goals, don't you? You know why you're doing what you're doing and what you're going to achieve. And again, that's a big part of how we work with people in clinical practise. And so for yourself, it's like, OK, well, I'm not just going to do any old meditation. Today what I want to build is a sense of safety and which meditations could maybe do that for me, or I need to be building myself compassion and what practises and meditations will do that for me so that you've got this really clear. Well, we would call it a valid. So it's a bit like motivation, but motivation is quite emotional. It's much more conscious, so there's a real awareness about why we're doing what we're doing and and and that gives a structure to our practise and then you know, you think you're working with one thing and then you see things slightly differently. It's like a child's mobile it. It suddenly kind of rotates and you can see.

Speaker 2

You're getting new insights and new, excellent, amazing.

Speaker 1

Things with your.

Speaker 2

OK, Katie, there's two questions I usually ask people now, but we're I'm going to slim it down to. 1:00 today. So one question is that I normally ask any everyone is about who's really inspiring them, but you've named kept some really fascinating people already. So if it if it's OK with. You we'll leave that there and and it's nice to somebody else. You really want to shout out about.

Speaker 1

Yeah, one one more person and that well, it's an organisation. The Centre for mindful eating.

Speaker 2

Ah, yes, of course. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1

So kcma.org sounds as though you've already discovered them. They are amazing and they've got loads of downloadable resources. They've got a huge library of webinars. And seminars. But I'd also really recommend tuning in to some of their live stuff, and that's something I've only just started to do recently, and every facilitator that I've listened into, it's fascinating.

Speaker

And then you start.

Speaker 1

They're based in the states, but they're they're worldwide. But I've I'm finding that the way that they approach. Mindful eating, but also all of the things around that is really complementary to the way that we've been trained in the UK. Marvellous interesting insights to bring into our clinical practise. So yeah would really recommend TCM A the centre for mindful eating.

Speaker 2

Brilliant. Thank you. And finally, Katie, what is it that you love most about what you do?

Speaker 1

Seeing people transform. That moment where you can just see it in their eyes, where they just light up that moment of like ohh, I see it differently. Or they they come back to see for a follow up and they can't wait to tell you what's changed or what insights they've had. And so to help people see things differently. You know, and have those little spark moments. That's that's what really does it for me.

Speaker 2

Fantastic. Well, thank you Katie for sharing so much with us today. And so that was Katie Sheen, mindfulness teacher, nutrition teacher, chatting with me. Kirsten chick. I hope you enjoyed listening. Please follow us for more fascinating podcasts and rate and share away.

Speaker 1

Thank you so much.