IHCAN magazine Podcast
Are you a nutritional therapist or a student of nutritional therapy?
The IHCAN magazine Podcast delivers the expert education, insights, and inspiration you love from our magazine and events—all in a digestible 45-minute format.
Hosted by Kirsten Chick, a nutritional therapist with 20 years of experience in clinical practice, teaching, writing, and leading workshops.
Brought to you in collaboration with IHCAN magazine, IHCAN Conferences, and the IHCAN Summit.
IHCAN magazine Podcast
S3 Ep 2: 'Psychology for health practitioners' featuring Damien Adler from Power Diary
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In this episode, Damien Adler shares some great psychology tips that are useful to all practitioners. We talk about how to be empathetic and supportive while keeping healthy boundaries in place. We also discuss work-life balance and other kinds of boundaries. Plus how we can create and make best use of a supportive network of practitioners.
This episode is sponsored by Power Diary. Start a free trial today at www.powerdiary.com.
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The IHCAN magazine Podcast is provided for professional education and debate and is not intended to be used by non-medically qualified individuals as a substitute for, or basis of, medical treatment.
Speaker 1
This episode of the ICAN Magazine podcast is brought to you by. Power diary the. Certified and secure practise management software for allied health professionals, from scheduling appointments to managing patient records and billing power diary securely streamlined every aspect of your practise. Is now ISO 27, double 01 certified. Start a free trial today at powerdiary.com and experience the benefits for yourself.
Speaker 2
Hello and welcome to the ICAN Magazine podcast. This is me, nutritional therapist, kirsten chick. And today I'm joined by Damian Adler, who is co-founder of Power Diary, the online practise management. Them, and he's also a registered psychologist in Australia. So today we're going to be focusing on that aspect. We're we've called this episode psychology for health practitioners. And these days, I mean, you focus a lot more on the power delivery side, don't you?
Speaker 3
Yes, that's right. So now my majority of my time is spent managing and growing power, but I still have some clients. So I still actually do a very, very small amount of private consulting just to keep my skills sharp and make sure my recency of practise is up. To date. And and I enjoy it too. So there there is that so.
Speaker 2
Fantastic. So well, thank you for coming on today and and sharing with us some psychology tips because I think you know, as health professionals, this is really useful for everybody. But first of all, tell us about your psychology background. How did you get into it? Is there any particular area that you specialise in?
Speaker
But I.
Speaker 3
Sort of fell into psychology to be completely honest. So when I went to university I was going to become a corporate lawyer, and that was actually what I rolled in and. It didn't take. Me long to realise that really was not for. Me. It wasn't very exciting. I didn't like it and. So they actually did a bunch of other things well as at. Uni so I. Was doing journalism I was doing. Business management, marketing and. All the way through, I was doing psychology. Just out of interest. So I was I had a a psychology, basically just all the subjects that that I, you know could and enjoyed it. I hadn't really thought about becoming a psychologist. And then at a certain point I reflected on that and thought, hang on, this is the one thing that I'm enjoying consistently and and then decided to focus on that and the rest is history so. Out of there actually went into work in the public mental health space first and so worked in a a couple of the hospital settings. But the areas that I were in were sort of focused on. Outpatient treatment, so usually working with people that had fairly severe mental health problems and were under were receiving for the government care. So in in Australia, at a certain well in Victoria at least to set that, I mean at. A certain level of. Of symptoms and and disability, then. The local psychiatric services. We actually have a role in case managing. And working with. So we got into that and that was actually really, really good. Like it's a challenging environment, but I learned a lot of things and really got I think a lot of the my views about how. Not to run, but also how not to run health services. Really, you know, were were formed in that that space and and they got into in that context got into some management roles and things which were great. So we're able to sort of reshape some of the ways services were delivered and that was satisfying to do that. But all the way along my. Wife is a psychologist too, so we met at university. We had to. Same career path we worked the. Same hospitals we were able. To sort of work together and which which was great, but we got to a point where we, you know, had felt weird, sort of. We've done our time, if you like, in the in the public system and even though we're still enjoying it, wanting to move into the private. And so we set up a private psychology practise in a a town that where I live, there's about 100,000, you know, people not a, not a huge town. And we had a an idea of how, you know, a model in mind of how we would, you know, deliver services in a. You know in a. Private setting and it was a bit scary because. You know, it was, you know, there was. You know, obviously earlier in our careers didn't have any, you know, money behind us or anything. And you know, it was, you know, we borrowed money to sort of start the practise we want to set up a a group practise and and set it up in a way that had support of kind of. You know, collegial support in, you know, from the start, which was something that. I think is often. Missing, you know.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I wanna pick your brains a bit more about that later, actually.
Speaker 3
In in public context.
Speaker
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 3
It was something. That we'd seen the benefits in in the public system of that. And I thought, you know, that's when we're looking at private it was missing. And so that was part of our. Thinking about how we wanted to build. A practise. And so yeah, we set. Up and then I spent a good. Obvious and working both as a practitioner, but then also as the director of that clinic and with my wife, she's. Far more organised than. I am, and she's much better with details. So she she sort of did really a lot of that day-to-day management and and really had that. The place running. Very well. And then I would. I I would work in in some other lulls there as well. In terms of, you know, launching new sort of initiatives and working with companies and things like that. So yeah, so and so I spent a lot of time in that and that was in terms of specialty I think was the other question you had attended to work mainly with adults, you know and with fairly general range of sort of presentations so. At our clinic, we would receive referrals for pretty full range because we had that background in. The more severe end of the scale we we probably were more confident with a wider range of referrals coming in because we felt with that background we just felt comfortable with higher risk profile of of clients as well. So we weren't, we wouldn't shy away you know from that. And then as we we grew and we had you know a really great team that we grew over time. Then you know we're able to kind of supervise them in that space as well. So we often see, you know, people with depression, you know, anxiety, eating disorders, relationship issues that might have, you know, functional impairments and various things AT SD's, return to work and often also. You know other health problems, but they had a link or a psychological component to it. And you know, we would. Do that so. It was. It was super interesting and never it was never, never boring.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it sounds it sounds really fascinating. And most of our listeners out there are going to be nutritional and functional medicine practitioners. And so we're not, we don't have that the full training and experience that you have in psychology, most of us, but it really is impossible to separate out emotions and psychology. From from what we do. So we're sitting there taking somebody's case history. We're asking them to tell us their story. Sometimes it's the first time they've done that that can bring up. All sorts of stuff. And then we're asking them to shift behaviours around eating. And you know how eating and emotions go together so that, you know, it's a big deal. What what we're doing. So I want to dive straight in there. Damien, do you have any really helpful insights about how we can do this all really in a really professional way? So we're being really helpful and supportive and empathetic to our clients, but at the same time, we've got those boundaries in place that that help protect our own mental health.
Speaker 3
The the first point is my cameras are sort of gone a bit fuzzy. There for some. Reason, but let's see if sometimes if the what else focus gets a little bit there we go. Yeah, it's a trick. I learned too much. You can get it to refocus. But the first thing I'd say is.
Speaker 2
There we go. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Probably a lot. Of listeners, even though they may not have had formal training in. Algy background have likely developed some excellent skills over the course of their practise and would probably underrate those skills, right? They're probably often applying a lot of psychological principles that they have discovered that were in terms of developing rapport and and supporting change.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And to be in there, we do get taught to a fair amount of counselling skills when we train most of us. But yes, there's there's a limit, isn't there? There is.
Speaker 3
Probably just. Right. There is a. Limit the the things that I I. I think that were. Fundamental in the way I would sort of think about sort of things is that of course that foundation of that unconditional sort of positive regard. And understanding that no matter like what the presentation is of the person in front of you and maybe maybe no matter how they're interacting with the treatment as well, whether they, you know, ideally we want engage positive, enthusiastic patients that are ready to change. But often in reality that's not always the case. So understanding that the. The person's experiences that they've had have brought them to that place in front of you, and that the way that they are either engaging or not engaging or following advice or not following advice is based on a whole complex, you know, series of things that they kind of have experienced and landed us there. So I think that that first part, the second part. That I found really useful was to to get around the defences of of people, because, and particularly when you're talking about behavioural change, you know, eating patterns, the. You can very easily get. A reaction and a defensive kind of stance or. The person can internally. And you know and and. People often feel like they know. They should be eating better or they should be doing something that you know should not be smoking or drinking less. Or whatever. It is, but by separating out and depersonalising it a little bit, right? So in focusing on the behaviour. And trying to change the language so you know instead of saying like when. You do this right. Or when you're when, when you overeat, or when you're when you are hungry. And I would say things like. When your brain tells. You you are hungry, right? When your stomach is saying this to you, right? When you find yourself. In our situation, you know where, say, alcohol is available, right? And the parts of your brain say this and say that, so it's sort. Of separating out instead. That being like sort of placing it as if you know. You're it's, it's you. It's, it's your. Like entirely your responsibility. And of course, we know it. It ultimately. Is, but it's how it's faced. Right. So we're sort of saying now you've got automatic messages and your brain is saying this to you. What do we do about that? Like and. So it it sort. Of almost like. Realigns you. The therapist. You know and. The the patient to sort of problem solve how to deal with the thing their brain is doing to them. But and so often sort of just taking that step and allowing that little bit of space in how we're framing those things would often get a buying that you otherwise wouldn't get. And it's all you can sometimes see like a wave of relief. Almost. It kind of washes over because. They're like, oh, OK, you're you're not gonna give. Me like a hard time here. Right. And I'm sure we've all been to. Physicians, right, like you go to you know. Where you sort of feel like you've been to. Like, Oh yeah, and it doesn't necessarily hit in the way that you really want it to, you know, or cause they might just restate the obvious to you, but say it in a way that makes. You feel all kind. Of bristle. But when it's positioned in a way that is. Kind of saying. Well, kind of understand the mechanism of how this is approaching and how difficult it is for you. But it's in that kind of language. Often you can drop all those. Things and you can kind of engage. In it, in a way that's a bit lighter, you know, and sometimes I'd even give, you know, collaborative collaboratively. We'd even like give a name to, you know, what is that you know, what's the hunger monster say to you, right or what's the kind of the craving monster. What's the what's the language that you uses? What's it talking to you when you. When you talk back to it, what does? It do. How does it win? When does it? When do you win? When does it win? You know it's all separating. Kind of, you know, to allow a. Bit of space between and the. Person to kind of observe that process without. Feeling that it's. Reflection on them without sort of activating that sense of shame or embarrassment or whatever it might be. And so I. Find that like. Has been one of. The sort of. People things when I get in the. Habit of that, I'd. Find that sometimes people that might not have had good experiences before in the health sector. Or with psychologists, or with previous, you know, they just have, you know, they come into it kind of often. You can just melt that away and have an actual, you know, conversation about you. Know those those things? And I find that that that that part is that was helpful. The other the other thing I'd like to, I think on this as well as around being. If you think about behavioural change, right, and this is something I used to spend a lot of time in supervision with, particularly with with, you know, practitioners that they're at the beginning stages of their career and sort of would sometimes have ideas about how much impact they should be having in a short amount of time and. If you look at it and stand back. And think well. A lot of these habits and people when you. About dietary intake behaviours around food beliefs around food. You know the you know, the the pleasure link and and so forth that a lot of those things, the history of that, the amount of reinforcement that has occurred. You know over often years and years and years right and we might provide a few hours of consulting like depends so. You have to sort of be realistic, I think. Like, I think it's helpful for us internally, but also in terms of what change and how we sort of remain. Sort of. You know, with the patient is to understand that, hey, there's a whole lot of time that has been has gone into that behaviour and there's a lot of it's automated. The brain circuitry is very well worn. It's the easiest pathway for signals to flow, you know, is to do what we've always done. So if we've. Got, you know a patient that that seems to understand and we think we've gotten somewhere and. Then you know. The next week or the week after the next session, they're doing the same thing that they've always done. Yes. Yeah, that's actually to be expected.
Speaker
Right, like and.
Speaker 3
If we see it in that way and understand, well actually the dosage size, you know they've had hours like, you know, hundreds, thousands, thousands, thousands of hours. Of that behaviour. And we've spoken to them to, you know, 121020 hours even. OK, you know, let's put it in perspective. And then I. Think that kind of takes the pressure off or makes. It a bit more. Realistic and you can then use that analogy too to keep people engaged. Just because sometimes you know people sat avoiding appointments because they haven't done what they said they were going to do or they haven't been able to follow through and now sort of start to think that they're, you know, I can't do this. It's too hard. They're gonna be disappointed. They're going to, you know, but by having the conversation about, hey, some of these things are challenging and sometimes. It's, you know, used to. So like it can be 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. That's to be expected, particularly actually, if someone's doing really well early on, you know that can be a flag that, you know, I'm sure everyone seen it where it's sort of making strides. But you look at the history and no, hang on, we we end up back in the same spot. So something you know and then they can kind of feel like, you know that if there's any kind of failure or anything less than perfection. It's a complete. Write off, you know, and they kind of go. I could so saying, hey, it is awesome that you are doing so well. Now one thing you know to flag is that, you know, humans are humans and will often go a few steps forward a few steps back. So if you have something, if you fall back into an old habit, that's OK, right? Well, it's almost to be expected, right. And if it does happen, we go oh. I was expecting that, OK, how do we get back on track? You know, so it doesn't become it's all or nothing kind of thinking in terms of recovery.
Speaker 2
That's brilliant and.
Speaker 3
I think talking my head, yeah.
Speaker 2
That really does take pressure off, and I mean it takes the pressure off them. It takes the. Pressure off off and. And it's it's not just for the sake of taking the pressure off, it's doing it in a way that's actually helpful. Yeah. Really good advice.
Speaker 3
Yes, yeah, yeah. It's it's helpful and it's I think it's it's realistic. You know and it. It sort of. Oddly, leads to better like better progress, right? Because you're. Not the person's not consuming a lot. Of like brain resources and emotional energy into all the you know, what if I fail? I didn't do that well. And you know and just sort of normalises it and says, hey, we're on the same page here. Let's understand this is, you know, some of this is not easy, you know. But we're here. I'm here with you for the journey. Right. And you're gonna have some trips and trips and some successes. And sometimes we don't. That's OK. That's part of the. Right. And then yeah.
Speaker 2
That's it. I was just gonna say sometimes I do get these messages from clients saying, you know, I I I think I should. Postpone my next appointment because I haven't done what you've asked me to do. And you know, if I get a sense that that's going on, then I will encourage them to keep the appointment and say, well, let's have a look at why you're struggling and put some extra support in there rather than just. Kind of leave you. To, you know, potentially perceive that you're failing for another few weeks.
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly. That, that, that's that's exactly the same as what I do as well as say so that's you know hey. Let's come and talk about that. Yeah, they're like, oh, OK. And then, yeah. The attendance rates then go up. To, you know, like they. Kind of feel like it's on.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And sometimes you get a sense that that's not the case. They're genuinely you just need a little bit more time. But you know you on these things.
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's that's that's fine. And I think when we come in, you know, like depend on the season, but to come into a busy season or a busy time of year school holidays and so forth. Yeah, that's, you know, that's the case. But then the key there is to make sure that that next appointment is booked, you know, and not because the worst thing can happen is someone has that conversation says, oh, maybe I need to postpone. And then there isn't that next one. And that's very easy then for. Yeah, they drop off your radar, they drop off. You know they they mean they then start to become a bit avoidant and, you know, it's hard.
Speaker 2
To get back on track. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so this kind of that's one aspect of the the the practitioner client relationship, a lot of us are in this because we're really good at. Giving we're really empathetic. We want to see people do really well and sometimes that's at the expense of looking after ourselves. That's a, you know, it's a classic. Yeah, pattern is.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2
But sometimes it can be hard, can't it? To to be empathetic, how can we be empathetic and yet keep a professional distance? How does that work?
Speaker 3
It's a it's a tricky one. I think that because you go either extreme, you know you end. Up like in trouble, but. Yeah. If you're too, I wouldn't. Say too empathetic, but too. I think you know personally invested as probably the the way to think about it then that's going to lead to you know each it's gonna lead to taking a sort of personal toll. It's that. And then of course the. Other way the. Other end of the scale and being too detached and too clinical, that means of. Course you're you're.
Speaker
Not going to have.
Speaker 3
Great patient rapport are unlikely to sort of have a good therapeutic alliance and and you know, I think those those issues are fairly self-evident, so. The the maintaining the kind. Of boundaries, I think is. About being clear about what your role. Is and what? Criticism and being clear about OK in in a health sense, we're working in a a health system. We are one sort of cog, if you like, in the machinery or in the whole in the complex. And that's not in any way to diminish the role. But it's also again sort of touching what we're. Saying before keeping it. In, you know in context and in perspective right that there are many, many factors that are involved in, you know this person that we're working with and you know looking at, OK, what is my role? How do I do that role, the best that I can, you know, and that doesn't also mean. Like perfect, right? And it also doesn't mean with. The benefit of hindsight, right? And, you know, remembering like the. Standard that we've always taught. Like through through study was that. Your the standard should be that you do what a reasonable practitioner would do in, in in the same circumstances, right? That, and that's the standard. Not not that you are a super practitioner and you know in also but you know with the benefit of hindsight on reflection you know. Put it up, but actually the standard is is is, you know, much more needs to sort of hold ourselves. To that standard. Right that I'm doing. At least what a reasonable clinician would do. You know, in similar circumstances. Anything about that bonus? And then being clear about where you know that kind of cause and. Effect and where. Our that role ends, you know that we can provide the information, we can provide the support we we can kind of be there and we can conduct ourselves in a way that encourages change. But ultimately you know it's going to be it's the patient's journey. And and how much they're able to take on and how much they're able to implement is is ultimately up, you know to them and and and the sort of outcomes that you get provided that you provided care that you know the clinical care that is fits within that parameter reasonable, right. Then you know being clear that that you know that that's where the sort of, you know, the the duty of care of your life or the discharge. That duty of care. That's where it kind of you know it. Things and so sort of being clear you. Know about that. The other thing I think you know is around and I see this happen a lot with health practitioners. If they're not mindful of it. I think we sometimes get want to get or we find ourselves getting sucked into fill a void that is created by imperfect systems and support networks, right? So yeah.
Speaker 2
That's the biggie, yes.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah and. It's it's a surefire recipe for like burnout, right? Because it you know where there's like a failing in funding or in government programme or in support or in whatever it may be like, it's infinite, right? Like those things where there are and so as practitioners, I think. Like you said, we're we get into. This space to help. And it's in the. Nature, you know, to, you know, to to. Help. But if we get drawn. Into that, you know, in in into that kind of dynamic you know. And that can be. Things like, you know, providing services. At a rate that. Is an economical right and that leads to, you know, financial stress for the practitioner and. The viability issue in terms of the practise. Providing too much like free, you know services, making yourself too available like because it, you know, there's maybe a lack of other services and therefore we kind of feel like, OK, we'll we'll you know we feel like compelled to feel that is tempting and is of course driven by the right things. But the thing I think that we need to. To think about is that what's the long term effect of that right? And even if we want to look? At it from an altruistic sort of point of view. It feels like we're doing an altruistic thing in that moment, right? But if you stand back and look at the big picture over the course of your career, your own ability to remain in the industry in a positive way and have the energy and have the enthusiasm that requires us prioritising sort of ourselves. Not in a selfish way, but in a kind of, you know, making sure that we're in a good place, that we're able to do what we do in our sustainable way rather than. And, you know, burn out. You know, after a certain period of time. And then the community misses out of all the lost years of productivity and of services. That that health practitioner. Could have provided. So if you step back and look at it and go, well, actually, who had the bigger impact, the one that got you know for the right reasons drawn in and and and was amazing. For for a very limited number of patients, for a limited amount of time, or the person actually was a little bit more distant. But but you know professionally distant, I mean and and had for the boundaries that were appropriate. But over the course of their career, you know, it spanned a lot longer. It was more sustainable and their. But the way they felt doing that, you know, they're more present. They were well nurtured themselves, you know, they had the kind of work life balance and felt rested. And those things actually, the equation, even if you look at it from an altruistic. Point of view, making sure you look after yourself is actually the best thing you can do for your. Community. And that's hard though. Is it is, you know, really, really.
Speaker 2
It is and I think also we have to keep reassessing how well we're doing that as well and and just that availability, I think that's a really key one to pick up on as well that how available you are to your clients because I I don't know about other people that I get texts and emails and other messages every you know morning, noon and nights week. 10S and there's certain times of day and certain times of the week where. I just don't. Look at them. I really just don't. Look at them because. Even if I look at them and think I I won't deal with that till Monday morning. It's still somewhere floating around in my head.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that this sort of goes. To that, how, how? Practises sort of structure their work and how practitioners structure that and. One of the. Things we did like with the with with powder, like with the software is to support like self-service for instance. So that if the practitioner wants they can activate the. Patient portal and allow people to to to. Look in now what that does though also is means that they can see if they go on, they can see if someone's booked out for two weeks, right? And they'll book an appointment for the third week rather than like, contact the practitioner and put them under pressure to make an appointment available. It also means things like, you know. You know people that have very firm. Hours of operation, right. And they're, you know. So that's very clear that this is when they start and they finish right. And then at the start of treatment to set up their their practise in a. Way that. Sets the boundaries and expectations really clearly at the start, and you know, so we have, you know, people. Can you have a form that they will send out electronically to the? But that will state things. Like what to do in an emergency, right? Like who to? Contact is at the. Clinic or if you're not a service that provides urgent, you know, or outside of ours consultation, OK, so you provide the alternatives that are available when you are available to answer, you know emails and things and saying it may be that you know I answer. So I review emails on, you know, for one hour each morning and that's it. Like if you send an e-mail, it won't be answered until setting up expectations around payment. No show policies, things like that. And having that clearly, you know, you know, presented. It it sets it up at the start and then it makes it much easier to enforce and to kind of stick to, then trying to do it. On the fly, you know, like once we realise we have a problem like let's say most people are gonna be fine, right? So most patients we're not probably gonna run into any. Issues, but then. When we do then it's very. Hard to sort of. On the fly, add those things you know in and not have it feel like it's targeted. You know at them and we're probably already established a bad, you know, a a bad pattern with that person before we got to the point that like we really. Have to do. Something about this so setting up the start, having that clearly defined helps with your own. Space and also allows. Your patients, to understand this, you know what the limits of that service are. It helps.
Speaker 2
Hmm. Yeah, yeah. I think that's really important. I think you're right. Have you got any other little tips to help with that workplace ball?
Speaker 3
It's I think the I think like especially in the in. The era of working from home because it's you're becoming more and more and I think you know. Overall, I think it's a great thing. But making sure that like your. Physical space that you're doing your work is contained, right? So. You have a designated spot. You don't end up taking work. Into the kitchen, you know, or. Into, you know, besides, even the confidentiality of those things. Yeah, but it's it's it invades, right? Like because then it's there, right. And the way our brains work, if you've got a work thing in your visual field in your personal space, right, like. Whether you even consciously or not like think about it, it clocks. It's gonna your brain is gonna register that, you know constantly. Right. And so, you know, if there's outstanding work to be done and it's there, right, and you're trying to just, like relax on a Friday and and you know, watch a movie or something that you get up to get a drink and there's that work again. It it it? It's not all by. You're naughty. Naughty. I I think we might be on to something here. But but those things are so natural for us. That right like it's it's. It's so natural. And it and it seems you, but it can end up sort of invading, you know that the other thing I think is around just making sure that like we really do, you have the, the hobbies and the interest and the things that are outside of work, right. And no matter how. Passionate people are about their. You know, subject matter what they do. Yeah, have hobbies. And things that are completely distinct from. That and that. Includes like social. You know, there's been times in my. Life where the majority. Of the people that I'm socially interacting with, they're all like psychologists and health practitioners and whatnot in the hospital environment and things. And yeah, that's great for wonderful people, but that can also get like, you know, that you're you're sort of. In that thinking all the time. So having your social having interest in social connections is completely nothing to do with, you know, health and that there's a a lightness to that and a a true rest from that that I think. Is is super. Valuable and and keeps people you know. Charged and enthusiast.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're absolutely right there. There's some really great insights and and you you mentioned kind of, you know, socialising with colleagues and things like that, but also you know, if we've got a, if we've got a team that we work with, if we work at a clinic and there's people there or there's. Some kind of team that? We work with how can we? Make best use of that within a work scenario. So we're getting kind of back into the work side of things again. Yeah, two supporters because we we, most of us, we don't have to have supervision like councillors have to have supervision. For example, whereas we don't and there are some new kind of organisations where that are set up where we can actually access that kind of thing, we need to want mentorship. But generally, how can we make use of our colleagues to help support us?
Speaker
Yeah, I'm. I'm a.
Speaker 3
Huge believer in like fostering very open sort of honest environments, right? And and if you happen to be in a leadership position or you're, you know, a senior person in particular being really open and transparent about your own sellability your own doubts, your own. You know, seeking the like overtly kind of seeking the opinion, advice of and so and and having team members sort of see you, you do that. Right. So it it creates an atmosphere that asking questions or checking on your thinking or debriefing is not a sign. Of being a junior or being like incompetent or having some sort of, you know, worry about imposter syndrome, you know, thing being activated, right, that actually is part of. That kind of healthy self affection, humanness. The fact that we can all be prone, you know, like to to make mistakes or errors, or in hindsight, I think that was actually, I probably would do something different. Being open like that. So that I think if you're in a position where you can influence the culture and atmosphere like that, I think it's a very. Healthy things. To do and I've had feedback over the years of, you know, people that have come through and say, you know, as a junior person for an organisation that I might be running and and they've said like, that helped them really feel like confident being able to. Say I think I stuffed up or I. Don't know what? I'm gonna do with this person. So. So I think there's that side. But outside of that as well. I think trying to utilise those those. The the people. That are within that sort of sphere. To set up. Other formal or semi formal processes or opportunities? Is probably a better. Way to put it, to actually get together and talk. So things that I've seen done well and some of them that we've done is that we've had things where there's been a group, we'll get together once a month and do a case study. Review weather map review. You know a case. Obviously you manage the the confidentiality part, but we'll do that or there might be someone would present on their present. And I mean that informally. So they might say, OK, but on a pet interest of theirs in, in the field, right. So they might have a particular or they've just come back from a workshop or. Something you know, read a. The book, right. And so you have these kind of structures kind of set up to say hey that you know and some of them like have found even would sort of take off on their own like that wouldn't end up with like there's a there was like a Saturday morning group that you said you know get together. That once they go out to breakfast somewhere, like at the at at our practise, that wasn't something I'd set up and my wife had done. But people just, you know, started to do. And they would do that, you know, obviously. And they would share knowledge, you know, about something they're passionate about or they're interested in and to sort of to, you know, teach the team a little bit about it or talk about why they like it. So trying to look for opportunities, you know, like that. And then also I think the. That that, you know, on individual cases sometimes that we get that. Does our head in? You know, like we might have a patient that is that one that we take home and we're thinking about still and we're. Not sure about all we. Feel like we're. Stuck. You know, we're like, I don't think we're moving here, you know, to be getting, like, picking the brain of a. My colleague in that sense, you know and and on something like that can be just so helpful like to be able to get to it can be a very brief conversation. But hey, I've got this person I'm a bit stuck. I don't know what's here. Or this is one word to do? Do you think it's amazing that what follows out from that, so one is they often come out at fresh and they've got ideas that you know, but also the flow on is that they'll often just naturally check in. On you like with. About that person, you. Know. How'd you go? Have you seen? That person. How? Did that go right and that like? It just has a sort of create, it's. A bit of. An environment or life of its own. Where there is this sort of it reduces that sense of. I'm carrying the weight myself. It's sharing kind of ideas and it's sort of allowing a I guess it's almost like allowing fresh air into our, you know, into our practise right, because we're getting this sort of source of, you know, brainstorming and, you know, getting the the everyone has their strengths, right? Like clinically we all have blind spots and we'll have. Things we're probably better. And then average so you know, we're kind of getting the benefits of that.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and. A lot of us said really solo as well, you know, maybe might not have colleagues or team members, so we need to somehow set that up.
Speaker 3
I've found that. Absolutely like and you can set up in different ways too. And so one there. Are some amazing groups on Facebook. Right, if you're that. Yeah. It's what a beautiful thing about Facebook is. It allows niches to like, you know, things that niche that you might be the only. Person in. You know 500 kilometres or something provides with. That's what you do. But if you go on Facebook, you're gonna be you can be a community of of. Those people. So yeah, which which? Is great and when. You look at all the different groups, there's some really great things and. I think you know a lot of the groups that I'm in. I rarely will comment, but because I don't have anything to say but I'm learning. Learning learning right like. From let everyone else to sort of interactions and you know might be only occasional that I might if I've got something that I can offer like you know, I'll put it in, but you don't necessarily even have to be super active in. Other you know, but as a learning opportunity, you know that you have that and that can sort of you know either validate what you think or it can challenge what you think you know which which is great. But the other thing too is I think not to overlook the people working solo that. There's going to be. You know, geographically around you maybe not people doing exactly your thing and your. Profession, but other. Health practitioners that are also working solo and you know by looking at that and starting like a a local Facebook group or you know something that, hey, when we catch up every now and then and, you know, go out for a coffee. Or do something. That can be fantastic as well. You know that you you kind of you you get. That and then. Because you get that kind of support and you. But yeah, and it's actually this benefit sometimes to being outside of your discipline because there's a different perspective or ideas that may. You you know, that sort of can cross pollinate. Another one too. Which I think is often overlooked because we don't necessarily think of ourselves as business people, particularly when we're working in, in private. We're like, well, business is part of what we do. But really it's, you know, but there are often local like a Chamber of Commerce or a local. Organisation that is there to support businesses and people often will think about it as, yeah, they think that's there for like, you know, for shops and for large, you know, employers. But actually, no. I mean there's a lot of Chamber of Commerce members are are are solo. You know, solo businesses and there's they're the the people that you meet there. They're running small businesses, they've got relatable kind of challenges. Maybe in a different industry, but it's relatable. And so often there's collegial support available there as well, at least for that element of, you know, operating as a health professional, so. It's it's a. Matter of being kind of, I think, looking at what are the resources and looking for creatively at those and. It's been amazing. Like we've got, you know, on a, you know, customers that that are all over the world, right, so Australia, UK, Europe and Canada and and and the US and The funny thing is that these things we're talking about, they are they're consistent themes everywhere, right. So people have. The same needs. You know this idea of. That's point. So no doubt, wherever you are, if you look at a, you know, 50 kilometre radius, there's gonna be a whole bunch of people right in there that, that, that have the same and would also welcome, you know, the opportunity to. Share ideas and and you know, have a coffee or.
Speaker 2
Whatever it might be, and I guess if if you're doing that with people who are at different stages in their career or who have a completely different career from you, you're going to get different perspectives that are gonna be, you know, really useful.
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. And and I. Think one of the things that as. You get more senior. And more experienced, I think one of the. Traps is feeling like. You know you need to be the Oracle. You know you need to know. Like like and yeah. It's a trap, you know, and and obviously it just sort of places that sort of, you know, there's pressure and that's where actually getting and interacting with people at the beginning stages of their career and seeking their opinion. Right. And, you know, so that it's in having a discussion around it. It's it's useful in any way. You kind of you die. So that teaches them good things, right. But even as the senior. Person right there are things that that they. Teaching evolves topics, involve knowledge involved. And you know, sometimes you'll get. Someone who's straight out of you know their their. Training and you're like. There's something that. They've got all that fish that you've long forgotten, that you know about, and hey, you. Know and so sort. Of I think fostering that idea that you know, we have different experience levels and all the rest but but that doesn't mean that you know it has to be that OK, well, you know. I I can. Sort of provide support to you. But you can't really provide it to me. Because actually, you know it's, it's in reality doesn't. Work like that.
Speaker 2
You're so right. Brilliant. Amazing. So, Damien, he inspires you most in the world of psychology.
Speaker 3
Good question, I think. It's well, I think about, but it's.
Speaker
Each like there's always.
Speaker 3
Incremental gains and they sort of say like, yeah, people stand on the shoulders of giants. You know, you heard that expression that right. And I think one of things with health is that, you know, each person has, like, each person's really move the needle in health. They're sort of, they're built up on the the work someone else has done. And taking it further and. So forth so often. It's like where do you sort of trace that? Where do you kind of, you know, put? That I think. If if I look at a couple of different ways. So from a clinical perspective, I think it's hard to go past Aaron Beck. You know who was the sort of. One of the sort of founding thinkers around the cognitive behavioural therapy. And I think. There were people before that that showed like I was. Saying that sort. Of did work and the people after that that have kind of I think you know he's sort of someone that moves the the needle on that. And and got. Sort of people really thinking about the connection between. Like you know. An event that happens. How we think about it, how we interpret? It and then. What our behavioural response or emotional and behavioural responses? Are you know you know to that so? I think that probably did you know. Really. Move the needle in. That and that has shaped a lot of the. Treatments that are out now that are like next, you know, multiple, you know, generations of that that are based on that kind of that premise. So there's that. But from a practise management or practise learning practises, I think the the guy that wrote emails, have you ever read? Have you ever come across a book? And this is a myth. I'll pull up a yeah, it's a it's a a book that was written a long time ago. So. And it's by Michael Gerber. So GA GB, I think.
Speaker 2
What's it called?
Speaker 3
So. So he wrote this book and it, and it was about taking a sort of system approach to running, actually to initially to running businesses. And then he wrote emits position. I think it was, which is sort of about like for health practises, right. And what he really kind of talks about is having. A process for doing things and and. Whether you're a. Solo practitioner or whether you're running like a multi practitioner practise. But having a. Process so that you're not reinventing the wheel, you're able to kind of have, you know, things happen in a planned structured kind of way and all the benefits that come from that in terms of efficiency, the well-being of the practitioner, the certainty you know for for clients and.
Speaker 2
The all of these things you've.
Speaker 3
That was sort.
Speaker 2
Talking about.
Speaker 3
Exactly. Yeah. And that that's the, you know, so think about like that's really one of the foundational things that when we were starting our practise, you know that we were thinking about how do we set this up from the start like that, that then led to ohh hang on there should be software to do this. There isn't any. OK let's build the software you know to to do that and. You know, so that kind of that approach, I think it just makes such a difference, you know, for, you know, for practises and you know if if practitioners are happier and healthy and you know they remain passionate and motivated and then they deliver. You know better services for longer. Period of time and that's a win for everyone.
Speaker 2
Brilliant. Thank you. And a final question for you, Damien, just to bring it back to you for the end, what do you love most about the psychologist aspect of your work?
Speaker 3
I think no actually. It's not, I think. I know it's about the impact, right. And and being able to have an impact on and change the the direction or being. A part of. Change in the direction that someone's sort of life you know is headed, and I think that, you know, I just. Find it a very. Rewarding and. I think when you when you think about, you know what, you know what you do with your life and the skills and. Whatever you're sort of lucky enough. To kind of have you know how you apply them, I think you know it matters, right? Because you know, and I think doing something that adds sort of value back to me, you know is. That's what it's all about, you know. And that that's. Exciting. That's motivating. It's. You know, it's interesting. And you can sort of feel good about it and go OK, that's, you know that that's I've had a maybe a small role in that. That's awesome. So that's that's what it boils down.
Speaker 2
To fine and I can see you light up when you speak about it. Say yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah, but I think this is what this exactly how I got into it because I I just was enjoying.
Speaker
It at uni.
Speaker 3
And that's exactly what I want. Hang on while. I do that, but that's the thing I'm like. So it is. Yeah. It's that that's you're quite right.
Speaker 2
Brilliant. Well, thanks, Damian. Today's been brilliant. We've. Learned so much. From you, you've given so much today. And you're gonna. Come back, which I'm also very grateful for. So. Let's finish up for. Today and so Damien Adler am, am I saying your name? Right. Yes, you are saying the.
Speaker 3
It there.
Speaker 2
Right, brilliant, David, the co-founder of power. Diary, which is the online practise management system and registered psychologist in Australia. Chatting with me, Kirsten, check for the ICAN Magazine podcast Series 3. Thank you so much. Have a lovely. Day. Well, lovely evening. You're in.
Speaker 3
Thank. Thank you.
Speaker 2
Australia have a. Good night.
Speaker 3
Thank you.
Speaker 1
This episode of the ICAN Magazine podcast is brought to you by Power diary. The certified and secure practise management software for allied health professionals. From scheduling appointments to managing patient records and billing power, dairy securely streamlines every aspect of your practise. And is now ISO 27, double 01 certified. Start a free trial today at powerdiary.com and experience the. Benefits for yourself?
