#51 Why women resist listening to their bodies w Denise Utter

Why is it that we as women will run our bodies ragged until they are practically dying until we start listening? In this episode with Denise Utter, RMT, she's explaining why that is and how we can fix it as women to live better lives! 
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Transcript

Miriam (00:00.592)
I have with me today Denise Utter, and we are gonna be diving in today about what the physical side of things for a woman, her body, nervous system, what happens when she is unwilling to really dive into her body, because let's face it, it's a very uncomfortable thing. So Denise, introduce yourself for us.

Denise has been a photography client of mine and we've had such great conversations when she's come in that I'm like, I have to get her on the podcast. So Denise, tell us about you, please.

Denise (00:35.261)
Sure, well thank you first of all for having me. I always love our conversations. I'm Denise Utter. I am by profession, I am a licensed massage therapist, an LMT. I am also a manifesting generator though when it comes to human design. And so I am someone who does a lot of different things. I do theater, I sing, I act, I've led worship.

So I have a very diverse background. I worked in corporate for 17 years, a lot of marketing background. I've worked at a liquor store. So I just, I have a lot of different connections with a lot of different communities and I've seen people go through a lot of different things and I'm just super blessed now to be able to bring all of that together as a massage therapist and working with people and the things that are happening within their bodies.

Miriam (01:24.976)
I love that you led with the human design and just like doing all of those things and how because that's one thing that's really tricky as a manifesting generator. I'm not, but I love and I coach a lot of manifesting generators how it's hard to come to terms with the just the variety of things and how it can all be a part of your identity and you don't have to like be attached to like a singular focus. So love that so freaking much. Yes, many reasons why I love you.

Okay, so let's get into this topic about why women first and foremost, why do you think it is that we resist just listening to our bodies in general? And I mean, or like spending time and carving out time where we connect with our bodies because, you know, I see a lot of women who are like really into yoga and really into Pilates are really into working out, but they don't, they still keep a very, very busy schedule.

and they still struggle with like nervous system dysregulation. So I feel like there's a distinction there between like, okay, you can still connect with your body in like a healthy way, but it may not still serve you in other ways that you may still need in other areas of your life. So like, why do you think we as women are just so, because in my opinion, when I think of like connecting with yourself, connecting with your body, I mean like connecting with your soul, right? And I see those.

You know, your soul, your physical body, and your nervous system are all very tied together, and they make a well, like a car, like they make a unit. But why are we so resistant to it? Why is that fear there?

Denise (03:06.232)
You know, I think a huge amount has to do with the masculine energy that we live in in the world. That there are these expectations surrounding what a woman is, who a woman is, what she should do. And while some of that is starting to shift, we still have that ancestral energy that runs through us going back from generations. And...

speaking just for myself, I was born into a masculine family. I am the only girl in my immediate family of siblings. And there was definitely an expectation set around who I should be and what I was responsible for. And for the longest time, I had a lot of difficulty, one, in loving myself, in loving my body for what it was. I've always felt like...

I should be this other thing or that other thing or I should look a certain way or another way. And a lot of society drives us down that path. And so then we get into these, into these cycles of I have to take care of A, B and C. I have to take care of my family. I have to cook the food. I have to do the work. I have to clean the house. I have to keep everything up. And we give to everyone else, never giving enough to ourselves. And

Not doing so can send us down so many negative paths that we don't even realize are happening. Like our body, there is a book that I refer to a lot actually called The Body Remembers. Actually I might have the title wrong, but it talks about how our body holds those stresses, those things that we don't process. The emotions that we push down because either we don't have time,

We're not supposed to, we're supposed to be strong women. We're supposed to be putting that out into the world. And the more that we hold onto that or we don't process it, don't work through it, the tighter our bodies get, the more tension we feel, our shoulders. We talk about this a lot in massage when clients come in, all my upper back hurts. That's almost always the thing, upper back, upper back, neck, shoulders. That's because we're holding all of that up here in.

Denise (05:21.269)
we don't even realize that we're doing it and then we're curling our bodies forward because we're protecting ourselves from getting hurt and we're holding in all of the things that we don't think we should let people see. And I think it's because of multiple things, one of them being the masculine energy, one of them being trying to live up to other people's expectations and then just not talking about it as women enough, not talking about

what we go through and how we each process and not just holding space for each other, holding grace for each other and for ourselves.

Miriam (06:00.144)
Yeah, oh my gosh, there's so much there because there is, you know, in my experience, and I've talked about this many times on the podcast, which is like, you know, that societal pattern for women of like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, and then do some more, because that's where you're to get your value at is so it's a very addictive cycle. And even for me doing this work for like, three or four years, I still on the occasion, usually it's once a year.

where I, you know, each year I get faster at picking myself up back out of that hole, like I'll fall in. And I'm like, geez, like it's such an addictive cycle that it seems that if we are not conscious of it, we are subconsciously encouraging other women to follow that pattern. And it's such a, oh my gosh, it is such a hard thing to resist and to opt out of because it's something you have to opt out of like every hour is what it feels like. Like, okay, I'm.

Consciously not going to try and get all these things done because you know you see all the people on social media posting like oh my gosh this is what I got done today and this is how much I've accomplished and I Accomplished my goals and blah blah blah blah blah and it's like okay Well just because my life doesn't look like that doesn't mean that I'm not Going to get the same benefit right like and this person we don't even know what that person's life looks like so You know with your massage background. Do you see and I'm just?

cut this just more of a curious thing. But do you see people who come in in the regular and are like, do you get surprised at how stressed they are? And do you ever wonder like, okay, this person needs some additional support, like, men, you know, whether it be not even like mental support, but like, lifestyle changes, I'm sure that must be because I mean, I know, as of when I personally trained, it was like, oh, my gosh, how do I get this person to eat better? Because

you know, they can work out as much as they want, but the eating is such a key component. And I'm sure you probably see that as well in massage where it's like, okay, how can we bring into this conversation, actual lifestyle changes of like, okay, well, maybe you do need to drop your or change your workout schedule. So it's like, instead of high intensity, it's like, I don't know, something a little bit, maybe it's walking or whatever it might be. I feel like you probably see that no.

Denise (08:17.809)
I definitely see it. But with massage therapy, we're meeting people where they are and holding space for who they are. And for me, the lesson is more about helping them meet themselves where they are. I can hope that folks use more stretches, move a little bit more, do a little more self -care.

Miriam (08:37.168)
Mm -hmm.

Denise (08:46.992)
do some self massage, I try to share techniques that is within the scope of my practice to do. And I encourage, and I know some do and some don't. And in my own story, being told it's okay, you'll get there, or just having others hold space for me.

is ultimately what helped me make the choices I needed to make to get myself down the right path. Because it's ultimately we have to make the decision for ourselves no matter how much a personal trainer talks to us or a therapist talks to us. And so yeah the power of just being able to say for the 60 minutes, 90 minutes, two hours, whatever, you're in this space and this is a safe space and you get to be

Miriam (09:19.63)
Mm -hmm.

Denise (09:43.279)
in your own journey by yourself. I am here to facilitate that journey. But most of the work is what you're doing when you're with me and what your body is allowing to happen when we're working together. I think it's a misconception that a massage therapist is gonna be able to work on your body and then you're gonna feel amazing for this next year or month, whatever timeframe that is.

Miriam (10:10.672)
Yep.

Denise (10:13.134)
And while we can certainly help you relax in that moment, it's what your body's willing to let go of and what you're willing to work through. And the amount of emotion that can come out in massage or not come out in massage, ultimately is where your healing comes from. And that's a lot of it. Some of that's in my opinion, but it's also in what the body will do, right?

Miriam (10:33.294)
Hmm.

Miriam (10:39.824)
I that's amazing because I see people a lot of time right there like, okay, self care means either getting nails done going and getting a massage or whatever, and so on and so forth. But sometimes I think like, like you just said, it's more so about that, like, I'm just going to give myself permission to hold space for myself, whether that be through massage or through just, you know, some time alone or stretching or whatever it might be. And I love that you brought in the emotion because

Denise (10:49.614)
Mm -hmm.

Miriam (11:07.6)
you know, and some of the nervous system regulation work that I've done, like I already know, like if I decide that I'm going to go and do like specific exercises, like I can already preempt the emotion that's going to come up because that's how like, you know, you can, once you become more attuned to it, you're like, oh shit, there's definitely, there's something there that needs to come out and I've just been holding it up until this point in time. So,

Denise (11:28.555)
Mm -hmm.

Miriam (11:33.232)
I love that because I think a lot of people probably don't recognize that, that like there are so much emotion that's tied to the physical plane of your body and just like working your muscles and stretching and like releasing tension is going to unlock an emotional side of you, which is really freaking incredible if you actually, and I'm sure you see this all the time in your work, but like as women,

And I think at least from my part, that's probably what was the most vulnerable and the most fearful about actually getting in touch with myself and carving out time for me was having to face that emotion.

Denise (12:11.34)
For sure, yes.

Miriam (12:12.4)
Because I think as women, we're like, oh, emotions, what's the word? Like a derogatory term as women. I think we're like, oh, you're emotional. And then it's like, OK, but we're made that way for a reason. There's a reason why those emotions are there. And there, at least in my opinion, there is a direct tie to how well -intuned people are to their emotional state and how well they're able to decompress. Do you feel like that's accurate? And have you seen that at all in your work?

Denise (12:39.786)
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. It's very common to have clients come in for the work knowing that they need the work, but they really don't know how to let go. And at that point, in a massage, there's only so much that can happen. Like I can only work those muscles to a...

Miriam (12:58.384)
Mmm.

Denise (13:08.714)
to a point, but if there's not a way for the body to let go, and that has to be taught. If I'm seeing someone for the first time and that touch has to happen to understand what the body's gonna do, there's a magic in that touch. If the body doesn't let go and they don't know how to work the breath work that comes with massage, then I know, hey, if we get to work together and then they'll...

We'll talk about it if we get to work together again, if you're if you want to come back. These are some of the things that I'd like to incorporate in our sessions. And one of them is a little guided meditation and a little breath work to help them learn how to let go. If you're holding that much stress and you have that much stress, you're trying to do something for yourself by having massage, but you also have to learn how to be an active participant in the massage.

Miriam (14:07.28)
Mmm. Yeah.

Denise (14:09.097)
Right? Without, because you're not actually doing anything. Ironically, a lot of clients who are holding that stress or have a high amount of stress will actually do movement in the massage where you really, we really don't want a client moving like their arm or their limbs mostly. Right? Because if we're working something and you move and you move the wrong way, it's possible that we could strain a muscle.

people who are high stress who don't really know how to let go their body will take over in that movement and a fair number of people are really not good at letting that letting go.

Miriam (14:47.864)
Mmm.

Miriam (14:56.368)
This is so fascinating. And I love that we're like really digging into this because first of all, I've never, you know, I mean, as I have a sister -in who used to be a massage therapist for like 15 years, and this is like, I've never really heard that perspective before of like, okay, yes, you are still going to be a participant. Like, yes, a hundred percent, it's really important to let it go. But at the same time, you do have to, you have to be intentional.

and you have to connect with, like, it sounds like, you know, if you're gonna go and get a massage, your job, your number one job is to connect with your body and discover what's there while also letting the massage therapist do what they need to do. So like, whether that be, okay, what are my muscles trying to tell me? Okay, this is really getting interesting because essentially, massage can be a way of discovering what...

Denise (15:49.263)
Yeah.

Miriam (15:55.056)
a root issue that you might have been going on for a really long time. And I mean, this is how I discovered some of my really, really intense, like deeply rooted childhood fears was when I started incorporating like the body through like nervous system regulation work, which for me was, you know, yin yoga, breath work, a lot of those things. And I love that you're encouraging that because essentially you're helping facilitate the transition of trauma, essentially.

and a client through massage, which is so freaking powerful because I've, I mean, I've been to like a zillion massage therapists and they don't even understand that the work that they're doing is a channel for that to be released. Right. And so, and this is of course, why I wanted to have you on the podcast because I'm like, there was just so much, there is so much here that we're unpacking and just one tool, which

You know, and you're incorporating breath work, you're incorporating education to your client and saying like, and I mean, with you be, you know, I've had my massage done by you, which I'm going to tell everybody, like if you're in the Madison area, you're going to go and see Denise because as someone who's been massaged as billion times, Denise is by far the best I've been to in the US, which is amazing. But,

You know, I remember asking like, okay, tell me, like, I want you, I want your perspective of what my body is saying. And I want you to tell me what my body is saying, because there's something there that I'm probably either misinterpreting, or I'm not paying attention to, or I'm not listening, or I think I understood, but I actually misunderstood what my body is saying. And, you know, I think to come into a massage with a very, I mean, it's a vulnerable.

Like, oh my gosh, someone else is gonna see me. Somebody else is gonna be touching, you know, areas of my body that are like, huh, right? Like it can be, I know, like my husband is too.

Miriam (17:50.992)
like, it's like, I'm gonna be happy, and I'm like, whatever, it's not a big deal. But it's such a vulnerable thing, if we talk about it in this context of like, oh, can I connect with myself and allow myself to feel my muscles, if I look at them as a form of communication, instead of, it's just women.

Denise (18:16.643)
You just said a lot. Yeah, yes, that's brilliant. It's kind of a soapbox I like to get on to about massage, at least talking about my massages is that no massage you get from me will ever be exactly the same because the body speaks and I do let the body kind of guide me and tell me. So,

Miriam (18:18.32)
Hahaha!

Miriam (18:34.928)
set.

Denise (18:44.45)
You come in and we'll have a conversation about what you're feeling or what you're noticing. And then I'll work. And then the after conversation oftentimes is like, goes something like, wow, I had no idea that my lower back was so sore or that my armpit could be so painful. No one's ever worked on my armpit before. Like those conversations happen.

I find too many times people are going to therapists who are kind of disconnecting, not engaging enough and not paying enough attention. And so I appreciate that compliment that you gave about being the best massage here in the US. And it also makes me sad when I hear it. That means people are not getting the work that they really, really need to get.

And yet I think there's a juxtaposition because not enough people really understand what good therapeutic massage is and should be, right? And so it's a lesson learning or education that needs to happen around how do I use massage as a tool for self -care that is more than just a relaxation massage? How can I do focused work?

on the areas of my body that I know right now are causing me pain or discomfort or stress and continue to do the work to find more of the root cause of that. Because the place that you feel the pain often is not the originator of the pain. It is the ultimate result of not doing self care or not getting work done.

Denise (20:39.168)
Um.

I myself came into that realization on the table where I was a highly stressed working in corporate world person. My body was constantly tight. But then I received massage multiple times. It took me probably four or five sessions and all of a sudden one day I just started crying and I didn't know why. And that was my body.

finally learning that this is a process where you get to let go of trauma, of stress, emotion. And I had a great therapist that was working on me that day who just allowed it to happen. And as they continued to work, more emotion came out. And by the time that emotion had completely worked itself through, it dissipated, that pain was gone.

was no longer there. That tension was no longer there. So it was a combined release that happened in that session. And that was one of the first times I was like, this is work I want to do. It took me a while to get there, but it was work I definitely wanted to do. And I feel very passionate that more people need that kind of work, whether they get massage or acupressure.

or acupuncture or do yoga or Kundalini, anything like that to start really working on ourselves, finding out who we are, working on our emotions and working on letting go of those generational.

Denise (22:30.757)
patterns of things and we might not even know what they are. But to start to do the work so we can find out what they are, so we can finally start to let them go, it's just super powerful.

Miriam (22:43.472)
Absolutely. I mean powerful I feel like is almost an understatement and I think like that right there like everything that we're talking about You know for the women that are listening is like this is what it looks like to build yourself up I mean because let's just talk about the benefits of all this work because I think a lot of people might be like, okay Yes, I really like massages but the idea of initiating a conversation with myself and seeing the massage as a

form of communication with my body and my soul, especially, can be very intimidating because I think most women, as we are taught by society, is like, okay, you want to be like a robot. You want to go, go, go, go. You want to have your repetitive schedule. You want to keep your, your, you know, routine or whatever. But like, but what about you? What about your soul? What about what makes you you? What about your personality? What about the things that, you know, like,

Denise (23:14.108)
Mm -hmm.

Miriam (23:37.712)
the things that you love, the things that you find really fun. And this is, in my opinion, a core piece of how you discover what makes you tick. Because I think there are so many women, and I've seen this in my coaching, and even a little bit in my photography, is like I've seen so many women that are terrified of discovering that person. And it's like being in the routine and being in the schedule is the same place for them to not discover that. Because while their life might not be what they want it to be,

It's almost like, oh, well, I would rather be in what I know, even if it's not what I want, than to be out in a space where I don't have control, but I may experience something even better than what I could possibly imagine. And I'm like, it's so crazy because being on the other side of things, like being on that side of like, okay, I might not be in control, but like my life is so much better because of it.

I'm over here like, okay, how can we convince more women to like take the leap and like, you know, ditch the schedule and ditch like, you know, and do massage and do more forms of opening up more channels of communication with your body, with your soul, because you only have one life. Like, are you gonna, are you gonna split it? Like playing close, like close to home because like, I just, like,

And our life isn't even guaranteed. Like, there's just no guarantee that we're even going to be able to take off the boxes that we have for our goals or whatever bucket list or whatever it might be. It's like, why not live in the present and enjoy the absolute shit out of it and not feel like we're running in this little prison that like, oh, are we ever going to be able to open this up and like, change it? You know what I mean? Like,

Denise (25:16.538)
Mm -hmm.

Miriam (25:27.92)
Why did I even go there? I think I went there because I was like, oh, let's talk about the actual like tangible day to day benefits of what it's like to unlock that emotion and to really get to the root of like, you know, like you said, you had this, you know, really therapeutic crying session and you were like, oh my gosh, like it does feel like it's so funny. Cause even as you were just talking, it was like, I need to lay on the floor and like decompress. I haven't done that in such a long time, which is so funny. Cause I used to all the time last year I did it quite a bit.

And I was like, wow, I really haven't done that. Like I'm going to do that because I really want to connect like with my body and like not have because sometimes the bed can almost be distracting. But like, let's talk about the actual day to day benefits of what it's like when you are connected with your body. You have a sense of communication going to and from your soul and you're not afraid of your emotion for you. What have you experienced and what have you seen like as a positive benefit that you've seen from clients that are like.

Oh yeah, I really want to do more breath work or like I really want to invite more of this into my life.

Denise (26:31.735)
So personally first, because it's my personal experience that I can speak from, I can give you my opinion of my clients, but personally, when I started to really do the work of getting into my body and connecting to my body is when I started to feel the lightest I felt. And I say that as an overweight woman.

Right? Being able to come into a place where even I can look at myself in the mirror now and be, you're a different person than you used to be. I can see it in my own face, in my own structure. People will ask me, my gosh, you look like you've lost weight. I haven't. I haven't lost weight. What I've lost, physical weight. What I've lost is some of the emotional weight and the stress and the pressure.

of the hustle and the grind that I used to be in. While my schedule oftentimes looks to a lot of people like it's busy because I'm a manifesting generator, so I have this and this and this, it is nowhere what it used to be when I worked in a corporate job that had me in a high stress place emotionally and physically. So the letting go,

and working through and getting connected to my body has allowed that freedom, has allowed me to do like you were saying earlier, rebound more quickly when I do hit those areas of high stress. And I don't hold that physically any longer. I acknowledge it. I might sit with it for a little while, sometimes half a day, sometimes five minutes.

But now I'm able to go, it's going to be okay. Let me take a minute and ground, which laying on the ground is a great way to connect back. And I'm a spiritual person, so connect back to Mother Earth, ground ourselves back down into the feminine, process out whatever we need to, maybe even journal to get out the words of how you're feeling to identify more.

Denise (28:59.156)
on the page even, how you're feeling. So lighter, less stressed, that's what I feel. What I hear from my clients that have really leaned into the work is the same. They come in and they're like, oh my gosh, my hips, I'm able to walk with less pain, I'm able to get through my day. Now that we've worked through that pain, let's work on this pain.

So, you know, whatever was pulling their focus into their body into that one area starts to broaden out. And as we work, they're able to let go more and they're able to get into their bodies more quickly when they do get on the table. And for those who have never had massage before that have come to me, I being able to educate them and work with them, the more they are able to.

get on the table, get through the process and work and have better results.

Denise (30:02.61)
Everyone is different, everyone's journey is different. So sometimes people feel that or get into that right away. Sometimes it takes three to six months of coming once a month for people to really settle in and see that result happen for themselves. And it is a great feeling to have them come back and say, wow, after the last session, that tension went away, that pain went away.

I'm able to do more and have a more, or have a better quality of life because of the work that we do.

Miriam (30:44.08)
Yeah, and that is so incredible. I mean, even that timeline of like, you know, for the clients that are newer to massage and newer to this world of like connecting with your physical self and connecting with your body and seeking out.

that level of vulnerability with yourself, right? Because that's how I see it. It's like, okay, if you're going to, you know, really decompress and really empty your mind and really on like a microscopic level, let your muscles relax and let your bones relax and really like, you know, accurately turn into a blob and let your emotion come to the surface. It's like that, that three -discipline timeline is like amazing because I know for me, I was doing personal development for like, oh gosh, a solid,

two to three years before I even entered the physical space of like, oh, your body might actually be trying to tell you something and you need to like, bring it into the conversation instead of trying to just use your mind to like jump and, you know, figure out your life and all this stuff. And I mean, like,

I love what you said about rebounding and just having the time and the space for yourself and not going straight to judgment and straight to shame and like how you're able to assess, okay, how much time do I need to figure this out or how much space do I need to process this particular thing? Whether it's maybe it's more, maybe it's less. I had a situation last week where I had two situations that were really highly emotionally like volatile isn't the right word, even though that's probably internally how it

what felt, but they were really, really intense. And I was like, oh my gosh, and I did need to cry it out. More so not because I was stressed, but because I felt so bad for the other party that I was like, oh my gosh, this is more of like an empathetic sadness than it is like, because I had to hold space for them. And it was like, I was the channel at which it was coming through. And...

Miriam (32:47.088)
you know, and then going into this week where I had like a reschedule and I mean this is how we started initially this conversation before we press record was like, you know, in the past, my past self would have been like, oh my gosh, straight panic. I needed to go and overwork myself this week because I had one client on the books and like, where's the money gonna come from? And like, let me try and control my reality. I have to be in control. And so I would have gone into absolute freaking panic mode and everyone in my home would have felt that stress.

I probably wouldn't have slept well. Like I probably would have clenched my teeth more and the list goes on and on and on. And instead this morning I was just like, okay, this is obviously an invitation from the universe. Like that client's just gonna come in at another time. It doesn't mean.

like the money is not going to be there. It just means like this is an invitation. This is an open door. Like what am I supposed to learn from this open door? Like what is, you know, am I, what does this invitation look like and how can I be more open to other opportunities coming into my life? And how can I lean into that and receive and just like you said, you know, like switching from that hyper masculine mode of like doing and following the schedule and running around and keeping your schedule really, really tight and running, running, running, running to like,

like, okay, yes, this is an opportunity instead of going straight into panic. And for me, like, bringing my physical body into my personal development journey was when, at least for me, like my world really started, like I actually started to see permanent change was when I was like, oh, okay, I need to go and cry here and I need to carve out time where I need to actually have a conversation with my audience and see what it's saying.

like great, what's there? What's lurking in the shadows? What kind of cobwebs are there from maybe I haven't cleared out the energy from last week with that really intense situation. Maybe I need to do a little bit more clearing out. Like what is there that's gonna allow me to be a little bit more efficient? And you know, it's so interesting because I find myself, and this is gonna sound really weird, but like,

Miriam (34:56.848)
I feel like I become more boring, but not at the same time because I don't latch on or find myself driven towards like dramatic situations or dramatic conversations because I'm just like, I, why?

Like that roller coaster of emotion that I felt like I was on when I was living a very strict schedule and like feeling the need to control everything and like not bringing my body into my world. It was very roller coaster -y, which.

And it also is like not good for your cortisol and just like, you know, also causes an insane amount of tension like in the body. And it's just funny because I'm like, oh, I mean, I'm not boring, but like my life may look boring to some people simply because I'm not creating situations out of thin air. Or like, for example, like this reschedule, I could go on social media if I wanted to. And I have seen this from other people in business where they're like,

oh my gosh, like this is so frustrating as a business owner. You know, they like lay all their dirty laundry out to air simply because they feel the need to be seen and heard. And I'm over here like, oh my gosh, okay, let's see what kind of fun is exciting is gonna happen this week for me. Like, I'm just gonna look forward to that, but it's no drama. It's no, you know, and so like in a way it's like my life is, you know, stereotypically quote unquote, not as exciting, but also I'm.

benefiting so much more than going out and shaming, number one, like this person on social media, and then number two, bringing all these other people into my behind the scenes of business, which should not even, they shouldn't even be there in the first place. So it's just like, it's just so fascinating because we as women, like, you know, and I think we touched on this like in the very beginning, like we, it is very tricky for us to.

Miriam (36:49.168)
carve space for ourselves and also for other women in a very healthy way. Because we're notoriously like have a notorious, you know, history of like being very catty and being very like, oh my gosh, jealousy. And then to come into the space, especially like, and I'm just thinking back to you and I have my massage with you, like it's so safe to the point where it's like somebody's not used to not being judged and to not being.

where that can be so triggering because it's like, what do you need a life without somebody wishing harm on me? What? Like, what the heck? And this is why I love having this conversation about what it's like inviting this conversation of your body into your life because the domino effect is insane in terms of like the positive benefits that you get from it because...

And I'm sure you've seen this as well in your life. Like, it's just like, oh, I can hold space for other people. I can hold space for things. I can invite, I can create space as you've dealt with your massage therapy for women or for everyone who comes in to ground themselves and to initiate change, positive change, and how powerful it is, right?

Denise (38:12.039)
Right, right. Those are some of my favorite sessions. I love all of my clients, but the sessions where we're really able to dive in and work together and support each other in the work are some of the best sessions. And oftentimes if that client has a little extra time, I'll even give a little extra in the session, extend the time at no additional cost because it's powerful work.

that we're both channeling. And when it's happening...

I want to be able to continue to facilitate it if we're able to do so. And some of what you're talking about reminds me of like one of I'm a big advocate for telling folks or letting folks know, you know what? It is okay to say no. It is okay and needed to have boundaries. And if that makes you boring to other people,

That's their problem. One of my favorite things that I say often times is the problem other people have with me is their problem. And it can sound a little backhanded. I'm careful about how I say it. I don't want it to come across as if me saying I don't ever do anything wrong. I'm perfect. You know, it's more from the place of whatever challenge they're having against me or

or you or whatever, it is really more their issue that they need to work through unless I've egregiously done something or blatantly done something awful. But somebody doesn't like my hair, they don't like that I'm overweight, maybe they don't like the pressure that I give in a massage, maybe my style massage isn't right for them, they didn't like the massage, that doesn't mean...

Denise (40:13.092)
that I'm not a good person, that my hair doesn't look great, that I'm not a good massage therapist. It just means I'm not the person for them and that's okay. And really to come into understanding that has been another just level of power for me to take back for myself, right? And being able to acknowledge that and know I'm not my brothers.

I'm not as masculine. I'm still trying to find some of the feminine and on our conversations about feminine I've been trying to work on leaning even more in because you have some really great perspectives about that.

And also being able to shift perspectives, to be able to shift the language in which we speak to ourselves. So powerful. And being able to speak to that with clients who might be nervous because, massage, right? You're in this trusted space. You're getting on my table in a state of undress that can be very uncomfortable, especially for a lot of women who have had trauma.

who have been through trauma, right? And I've been through that trauma. So to recognize it, hold space for it, and let everyone know this is a safe place. And you have a voice, I have a voice, and together we need to communicate.

what our intentions are and where our safe places are.

Denise (41:59.265)
to take care of each other. And women don't do it enough, but they're starting to do it more. The work that you do is leaning more women into supporting women, and that's a beautiful thing.

Miriam (42:12.336)
Well, and I think that comes down to, you know, and I love that this is kind of coming full circle from where we first started in the conversation, because I really think that if women are craving the ability to hold space for other women and they're wanting more of that, it starts with yourself, which is, you know, brings us back to this like, okay, seek out conversation with your body, seek out you. I, in my...

one of my groups, I posted, I came across a, it was like become obsessed with like bettering yourself. And I was like, Oh, I love that. And some people might get triggered by that because it might be seen as, Oh my gosh, that's really selfish. But when you see again, like what you were just saying, the ability to hold space for other women and the ability to be very like, Hey, let's really have a real, real to real talk, you know, and like that starts with you being able to do that with your

yourself and for you to seek out in probably a very uncomfortable way because it is very uncomfortable in the beginning to say Okay, let's really get to the root of this. Like what is it that I am really truly struggling with and to lay it out on paper? What is it that my body is trying to communicate to me? What kind of emotion is really really holding and really holding really tightly in my muscles in my body in my subconscious? There's a direct link for those people that may not be aware like to your subconscious

trauma and what's being the tension that's being held in your body and I think the book that your body keeps for right is that we are referencing I think in the beginning yeah yeah yeah and so it's just so like again we've mentioned the word powerful a zillion times but the impact is so tangible and I think that's what makes this conversation so important and why I was like okay we really need to get into it today because

Denise (43:45.184)
body remembers.

Denise (43:58.848)
Mm -hmm.

Miriam (44:05.68)
You can single -handedly transform your life by just inviting a conversation in with your actual physical body and by bringing like your partners together, your body's not just meant something that's meant to be a robot and to be abused and wake up at five o 'clock every morning and then go to bed at midnight every night. And like you're only decompression as a form of, you know, a glass of wine. Like that's not enough. Like you want you, your body deserves more. Your subconscious deserves more. Like your life deserves more, more chill, more calm.

more fun and most women I find are very reluctant to have fun because they're like, oh well, but that it's like a sense of guilt, right? Like, oh, but I, you know, there's no one measuring us except for us. So whatever, you know, internal measurement is there by like this, you know, guilt and shame that we experience from the outside world is like, well, you can choose to opt out of that and you can choose to be selfish and heal your body and heal this relationship and like start a new relationship.

relationship with yourself, which, you know, hopefully the women that are listening are seeing both positive effects that both you and I have had and are like, oh my gosh, I want to experience that for myself because it does make life significantly easier, at least in my opinion, it does because then I'm not, you know, my world's not turned upside down by a client that's rescheduled or like, you know, by something that someone said, like you, like you said earlier, like I don't have to worry what other people think about me. And that's a huge weight off your shoulder that allows you to spend what

time you would have been thinking about what other people thought about you in another space where, say, another client, you're able to be like, great, we're just going to move into focusing on that other client. And now that client has a great experience because you're fully focused on them and not, you know, your brain isn't busy somewhere else. And so the impact is truly, truly, truly absolutely incredible. I wanted to ask you, if a woman is yelling, like, you know, because even for me, I can...

You know, I love this, having this conversation about inviting the body in because I'm like, ooh, I can feel like there's a little something there. Like I want to, you know, I'm going to go lay down on the ground and figure out what that is. But for a woman who's so terrified of feeling what she might and learning what her body might be trying to tell her, say she's, you know, and whether it be through massage or whatever, say she's just listening to this podcast, what would you recommend that she kind of, um,

Miriam (46:30.84)
What am I trying to ask here? Like, what would you recommend to initiate a conversation or initiate an invitation into her body that might ease or slowly build up that vulnerability so that it doesn't feel quite so like you're swallowing a frog, if that makes sense.

Denise (46:47.517)
It does, and it leads right into a thought I was having just a moment ago, which is take everything in small nuggets. You can't clean out a hoarder's room in one go, right? You have to start with one piece of paper to use that as an analogy. For me, one of the biggest things,

and hardest, probably most difficult things was to start to rather than look at myself and say, oh my gosh, I have a big, big belly and a big butt and I look terrible in dresses that I want to be able to wear. Because that was my dialogue for a long time. Was to look at myself and go, oh my gosh, I have the most beautiful eyes and to find that one thing.

that I know that I love about myself and then find another thing that I know that I love about myself and work towards that a little bit at a time and to know that it is, it's a journey.

you just have to take one step to start to get there. And as you slowly start to speak in a more positive language, you start to flip the script as a lot of people like to say, you just start to feel it. You want to be a certain way. You want a certain thing for your life, whatever that might be. Start living as if you're already there.

Right?

Denise (48:38.365)
Baby steps to self -acceptance, but start living the life that you want today. Because why wait? Why wait to start living the life? Maybe you're not in the perfect mindset. Maybe you're not in the perfect weight. Maybe you're driving a 20 -year -old car because it's all you can afford. That just happened to me.

Denise (49:06.333)
Just know, well, that's hard to say, just know, right? Try to know, lean in on, it is going to be okay. I am going to be the person that I want to be. I am going to make the changes that I need to make. And when I lose that or when I step back from that, it's okay. You're gonna have a day that...

isn't great or you're going to have moments in time that are not great that are that setbacks. But sometimes you got to make a mess.

in order to clean up the mess and move forward. That's something I was just saying to a group of high schoolers that I worked with in theater the other day. We have to make a mess here in order to get organized, cleaned up, and move forward with things in a better place.

Miriam (50:06.256)
100 % and I've experienced the same where it's like the messes are so eye -opening at least to me. It's like I'm like, oh, yeah, it sucks and it feels really rough when the mess happens, but it's like, oh, I needed to see things differently and I wouldn't have found it if the mess hadn't occurred because it's like, oh, once it's all laid out, they're like, oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. I actually needed to find that or I needed to reorganize it in a better way. That makes my life so much easier. And I 100 % agree with you. Like the baby steps and this is why I love this podcast because...

because it's like, this is, I mean, we've touched on so much information here in this subject alone that it's like, hey, just like one podcast at a time. And then, you know, hopefully that'll lead to like, maybe it is a massage or maybe it's just like diving into breath work or like, you know, YouTube being some nervous system regulation work and like really just, okay, let's, you know, one thing that might inspire you. And most importantly, like these conversations are meant to lead you to you. Like, right? Like that, like for the women that are listening is like, this is the goal.

is that you are opening up doors and finding it exciting to discover the real you. That's like on the inside because she wants to come out and she's amazing. And so, okay, yes, I'm just obsessed with everything that you have her over here like, yeah.

Denise (51:21.533)
It's just like a party too when that happens, you know, like when something amazing happens, like just yesterday, some amazing conversations happened with me and people were pouring into me in a way that I wasn't expecting and left me going, but this is what I've been working for. These are the things I've been trying to not even try. These are the goals that I've had in mind that I put out into the universe. This is what I want to do.

So don't be surprised when the universe gives you what you asked for. Right? And just cheer and celebrate it when it does happen because those are the moments that feel good and they're small moments, but they're big. Right? I just had my birthday last week and I said to everyone, oh, I never do anything because every time I plan a birthday party or try to do something big for my birthday, people don't show up. I'm alone and it just sucks. So I just don't do it. And then this year,

I didn't, I couldn't plan anything because I was in Tech Week for the show I was leading and it was one of the best birthdays I've ever had. I had people reach out to me that I didn't expect to reach out to me. I was gifted things. I never like, I don't even know how to put it into words. It was the most beautiful birthday and yet I didn't, but I'm playing anything and just let it happen. And we have to do that more.

Miriam (52:46.468)
Yeah.

because you were totally open. You were like, I'm just gonna step out of being in control and I'm just gonna trust, like trust yourself and just trust what works for you. And like it ended up being so beautiful, which I love that so, so, so, so, so much. And this is just, again, another Testament of what it's like to lean into you, lean into what by what, what your intuition is telling you to do and just vibe and just like that. That's what it's all about. It's just like vibing and like holding space for other people and encouraging other people and like,

in your best life. Oh my I'm sure we could go on ab for days. Um, amazing. Okay listening, you know how i get a massage or drive to tell us all about about t you offer, where they can

Denise (53:19.517)
Yeah, we could, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Denise (53:37.021)
odd things. So.

I really don't put out too much like specifics with regards to massage too much because I like to have my therapeutic sessions be unique, right? I can do deep tissue work. I work with hot stones. I work with cups and cupping and I can do some Gua Sha, which is an Eastern technique. I do massage therapy currently a couple of days a week in Stoughton at KO Body Works.

And then a couple of days a week in Cottage Grove where I'm at with RIP, which is rebuilding inner pieces, which I think is just really cool about building ourselves back up. But to find me directly through Facebook, Utter Girl Body and Soul is my Facebook account. I've added the soul to it because I'm working on becoming Reiki certified.

soon and we'll also be adding sound healing by the end of the year into my sessions. And I'm currently redoing my logo and working on websites. So I don't have that yet, but Facebook is the best place to find me.

Miriam (54:54.16)
Cool. Amazing. Perfect. And I mean, I'll grab your links and I'll put them down below with, you know, your Facebook profile or whatever so that people can connect with you and all that good stuff. Is there anything that you feel like has been really transformational to you that we haven't talked about here today yet that you're like, okay, this is like one little thing that women need to hear? Or do you feel like you've kind of mostly covered everything? I always just like to throw that out there.

Denise (55:16.957)
You know, I feel like there's always more. We've covered a lot of really, really great things.

Denise (55:24.893)
For sure, I'd just like to encourage women to lean in to taking care of themselves more. Whatever that looks like for you, maybe it's going out to see burlesque with your friends once a month, which is really, really releasing and wonderful. Go see a band, go to a movie, get a massage, listen to Miriam.

and other podcasts that can help lift you up and never stop learning. There's always something to learn. There's always something to learn about yourself, about what other women are doing. Just keep the conversation going. The fact that we as women have not talked about the things that are important for us to talk about in women's health, I think we need to discuss it more and be more open about it.

I'm in meta -pause right now. It's something we don't talk about and I can't find a lot of resources for it. So that's just an example. Keep the conversation going. I think that's my big, big thing.

Miriam (56:33.104)
Yep.

Absolutely love that totally agree because it's and this is why you know seeking yourself and seeking your like your soul is so important because What you are just able to discover and if you're able to share that with girlfriends I mean the impact is insane We and as you were saying like we need more of that you actually just give me an idea for my beauty over 50 segment because that's like something that I'm like Yeah, you're that's not the first time I've heard that from somebody who is going through menopause. So Love love

Love, love, love, love that. Well, I appreciate you times a zillion because this conversation has been amazing. And yes, I just appreciate you and thank you for being here and sharing all your wisdom.

Denise (57:14.493)
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's always great to talk with you.

Miriam (57:18.096)
Yes, awesome. We can still chat. I'm just gonna stop the recording.