Holy Hands Week 2 Discussion - How do I live a life of "Lifted Hands" through worship and prayer?

What does it mean to live my life with lifted hands? How does prayer and worship play into the spiritual formation that God has for me? Listen in as we discuss what it looks like for God to develop dependence on Him in our lives. Through that discussion we will see how what He develops, we can declare. And what we declare, he deepens. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Welcome to Navigate, a podcast discussion from Tower Life Center, where we talk about how to navigate life, living as a follower of Jesus in a fallen and ever-changing world. Let's join the discussion.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

How are we doing this morning?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Good morning.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Welcome in. Hello. Here we go. Good morning. Yes. How's everyone's day? Starting off smooth?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Starting off smooth.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

So far, so good. Let's go. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Time change adjustment. You know? But there's a time change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

There's a time change.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

There was a time change.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Definitely an adjustment. I hope we get to the point where it's just like smooth sailing. Let's just let's just stay here.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

In whatever this time frame.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

We're at that point now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

We're gonna stay here until we fall back. Well, I'm just saying, let's not fall back. Let's just let's just stay stay here.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, that'd be nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

That would be nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Well, guys, we're diving in to part two of the series that we have uh been in on Sundays called Holy Hands. Last week we talked about um God's hands, and those are the only holy hands, and then we uh looked at um how we can position our hands, so we looked at uh lifted hands. So you want to just fill us in on that, Pastor Kyle? Yeah. The lifted hands piece looks like.

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Yeah, so uh I think you said it perfectly, right? Like, how are we going to position our hands? Yeah, as people who are following Jesus, formed by our Heavenly Father, right? We said holy hands is the title of the series, the subtitle is a Father's Formation. And so we've been talking about how do we then position our hands in response to that. And so the first week was God's hands, then the next three weeks, lifted hands and the following two, are what can we do with our hands as a response to the continuing formation of our father. Yeah. And I think it's important, and before we even dive into the idea of lifted hands, that we rally around uh getting on the same page of what is spiritual formation.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

I think it's I said it yesterday, and I think it's important that we all uh get on, remain on, stay on the same page of of what is spiritual formation and why uh why do we do it, right? Like why do we engage in that? Why do we allow the Lord to do that in our lives? Um because it really is the process that that He wants to take us on as followers. Um the first week, so last week, we went through a bunch of different definitions. For this week I just kind of picked one that was was kind of the one that was the culmination of all of them. And we said spiritual formation is what happens when the Spirit of God shapes our inner world until our outer life looks like Jesus. Yeah. And the thing I think I would want to um maybe unpack a little bit together is as we look at that definition, um, there's there's two pieces of it that I think are important for us to see. The first piece is the partnership with the Holy Spirit. Uh like we need to understand that we're partnering with him and his work in our life. Like basically our partnership is like submission and surrender to him working in our life. Yeah. And then the second piece we can kind of unpack for just a second is the the fact that the work happens in the inner world until our outer life looks like Jesus. Do you guys have any any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah. Oh, I guess I can go first.

SPEAKER_05 3:54

She's she's writing and talking at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yes, I I'm not a great multitasker. Um I just love the partnership of um what our life can look like as we partner with the Holy Spirit. Um, I think that that all goes back to the heart and our heart posture. Um, are we willing? Are we willing to allow him into our life to shape us, to mold us, to be transformed by him? Um I think as we talk about spiritual formation and spiritual growth and spiritual maturity, it does go back to the heart posture of am I willing? Am I willing to let him in? Yeah, and I think without a willing heart, it's really hard to work towards um tran being transformed by sure.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

And I would ask, like, why I love the phrase, am I willing? Why would I not be willing?

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_05 4:46

You know what I mean? Like, and but we said that last week. Formation's a process. Many of us don't make processes.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Or the pain that might come along with that process. Or um being called out by people you love.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah, the pride, the ego.

SPEAKER_05 5:04

For sure. We we like in theory, we like the idea of being able to call out other people.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

And see it in everybody else.

SPEAKER_05 5:11

Right, right. And then it's like, oh, but I you mean I get to be also called out? Yeah. But again, I don't want us to be a church.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Past. Oh, past.

SPEAKER_05 5:21

That wasn't what I thought you said. I didn't hear the pee at the beginning of that.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

That's how you handle constructive criticism. Yeah. Like that. Yeah. That's funny. Um, like this, yeah, this turning the significantly off the ribs.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

I've literally thought that is my yeah, it's too bad this wasn't on a video to see your reaction.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

Like, Zach's wearing an i-shirt that's red, and my face probably matches that. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Kyle just grows.

SPEAKER_05 5:55

I mean, I'm I was just shocked. So, anyways. Yes, this idea of calling out, and I I do want to be clear that like Brad's not being like, hey, let's walk through the lobby and just be like, boom, you sinner, boom, you were here. Like, yeah, it's the concept of getting into relationship, as we'll talk about, so that we have people around us who care and who love us and who kindly are pointing us back to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Well, and as you point things out or you see things in other people, remember when you're pointing a finger, you have one pointing out, but you also have three always pointing back at you. And before you go and call somebody out, like maybe take a look at you know your inner heart and say, like, wow, where are some areas that like I could grow? Where is the ownership and the responsibility on my end that I could be working on things?

SPEAKER_05 6:41

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

As my husband just looks at me with a smile.

SPEAKER_05 6:44

No, I'm I'm smiling because I'm smiling because if I were listening, I would be doing it right now, and I'd be like, but you only said one out three back, that's four fingers. Where's the fifth? It's your thumb. Yeah, you're fine. That's not really pointing anywhere. I mean it's up, but like that's why I was like, you know. Yeah, that's right. Reminding you to go vertical.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

So yesterday we also kind of talked about um with these lifted hands, it represents our dependence on God.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

And so in the lifted hands, uh, we have to develop dependence, and developing uh that dependence does take time. So, what I want to kind of ask is like, how do you guys in your own personal walk with the Holy Spirit develop that dependence on God throughout whether it's at home, at work, in relationships? Yeah. What are some things that kind of take place?

SPEAKER_05 7:35

Yeah, let me let me answer that real quick. Well, maybe add some context. So so the idea of lifted hands, uh, we said they represent dependence, and there's different stages, and the first kind of stage is developing. Yeah. Right. And so we're always all kind of in a little bit, all three of these stages, um, but we'll resonate with one of them more. And so the first one was developing, and so how do we if lifted hands are really the concept of of worship and prayer? That's what we see in the scriptures we looked at. It was first Timothy uh 2.8, I've got it here. Um First Timothy 2.8 and Psalm 63.4, right? Both of them talk about with lifted hands we have both an attitude of worship or praise and prayer. Right? And so how do I take those practices, lift my hands in worship and prayer, and allow that to develop dependence on God? And so, yeah, I love that question of how what do what does that practically look like in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

It's a good question. Um, I would point back to First Timothy 2 8, and it says, In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands, lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

So as we're building that dependence on the Lord, we can't free ourselves from anger and controversy, guys. Like that's that's impossible. So I think that's the first part of inviting the Holy Spirit in and saying, Search my heart, um, help me to rid my heart of any anger and controversy that I might have with myself or with others. Um, and I would say that's a first step to really um leaning into the Lord and developing that dependence on him.

SPEAKER_05 9:20

Sure. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, practically, like, what does it look like to do that? I think it's it's making a commitment to something that I've not seen the fruit from in that area. Right. So it's like, okay, like if if lifted hands, if worship and prayer are going to develop my dependence on God, like maybe I've seen it in area A, but man, I'm really navigating area B, and this is hard. And I've not seen it. And I I know that for much of my life or much of the last however long, I've been able to handle area B on my own. Right. Right, or that's been the perception I have, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:58

And so now it's like, man, I've hit a limit, I've hit capacity, I'm at rock bottom, I don't know, right? How do I depend on God in this area of life?

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah, we have to get it.

SPEAKER_05 10:09

Parenting, marriage.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

The end of ourselves.

SPEAKER_05 10:11

Yeah. And sometimes it's easier when we're at the end of ourselves, we're like, Alright, God, here's my hands, lift it up. I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna worship. But man, how do I do that over time and to develop that so that I don't wait till I'm at the end of myself, right? Uh and so to me, I think one thing is just practically like, man, I'm gonna commit to develop to allowing the Lord to develop dependence in me through lifting my hands. Like I'm gonna commit to lifting hands. I'm gonna commit to prayer, I'm gonna commit to worshiping. I'm gonna commit to living my life in a way that's a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

And having a right not right, um not right or correct, but a view on prayer and worship that is biblical. Because a lot of times worship can mean different things to different people.

SPEAKER_06 11:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Um prayer can look different for different people, but I think understanding what does it biblically say about praise and worship, what what does that actually look like?

SPEAKER_05 11:11

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

For sure. And I referenced it yesterday and I didn't know where it was in the Bible, and I'm referencing it again now, and I still don't know where it's at. I should have been more prepared. But Brad talked about at the end of service two weeks ago, right? Whatever you do, like Brad, if you know where this is at, you can hijack this verse at any point from me stumbling through.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

It's actually funny you say that though, because like uh I want to say it's in Colossians 3, but the what I was reading was out of the message, yeah, and it was Romans 12, where it just changed that verbiage a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Of that. So, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 11:45

Yeah, no, it's just like whatever hey, whatever you do, live your life in a way that glorifies God. Live your life in a way that that is an act of sacrifice and worship to God. And I think that the Bible is uh way more all-encompassing in the idea of worship than we are. We think that it's the first 17 minutes of church service, right? And then we think it's what we listen to on the radio or on Spotify or whatever, but really we can live our like worship is a way to set our attention, our affection, and our focus on God, and we can live our lives in a way where we are setting our attention, affection, focus on God, literally no matter what we do.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Um, it reminds me of the Bible verse uh John 3 30, he must become greater and greater, and I must become less and less as we learn what it looks like to come to the end of ourselves. We have to keep that at the front of our minds all the time. He must become greater and greater, and I must become less and less.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

So that we can get to that point of development.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

And in our humanness, too, all of us, whether we want to believe it or not, we're all selfish.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

And also, too, I feel like maybe this can be more of a struggle for men at times, but we want to just like, hey, I I got it. Like, yeah, I can fix it. I'm strong. Yeah, I can fix it. Sure. I don't need help. Yeah, no, you can't. And yeah, but yet, like, I like how you said yesterday, um, you don't drift into dependence, you practice it. That's right. Just like, you know, we just got done with upward basketball season, so you see all these kids that whether it's their first time playing or maybe it's their you know seventh season, right? But like throughout the eight weeks, you see this development of like, man, you used to not be able to dribble and now you can dribble and shoot. Um, but yeah, it's you don't drift into that dependence, you you practice it. And I think the same is accurate in our relationship with God. You're not just going to you know develop this dependence by not doing it, you're not just gonna fall into it, you have to practice what that looks like. Yep, and we'll get to this next um part of lifted hands of declaring your dependence. But I think before we declare it, we have to be just aware of like, yeah, hey God, I need you. Yes, and then in that you can develop like, okay, what does it look like for me to put this into practice? It reminds me of um Philippians 4, verse 8. Don't worry about anything, instead pray about everything. Yeah, tell God what you need and thank him for all that you have done. And like, I've got that verse, like I say that a lot, but what I don't say is verse um, or that was six, but then verse seven um says, then you will experience God's peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. Yeah. So if we want to experience God's peace, we have to just like get in this habit almost of just like, hey, when I have this like worry alarm go off in my my mind or my my heart, bring it, bring it forth. And the more we practice that, right, the more that it's going to become habit.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Where then it's like, man, this is a part of who I am.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:54

Yeah, for sure. The order is important there to see that I'm gonna not worry, yeah, but instead I'm gonna pray.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:01

I'm gonna tell God what I'm thankful for, or I'm gonna do all of that.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

I'm gonna have the alarm bell that goes up.

SPEAKER_05 15:06

And then I'll experience peace. Many of us live under the illusion of this is a bunch of areas of life. But if first I had the result, then I would go back and do the practice. Yeah. If I had the six pack, I would do the sit-ups.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

Right? Like, if I if I had the money, I would be generous.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Right.

SPEAKER_05 15:23

If I had the peace, I would pray.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah. It kind of reminds me of my daughter. She did cheer her first year of Upward. Then she did basketball. She did cheer this year, and in the middle of the season, she's like, Dad, I think I want to be um play basketball again next year. And I was like, Oh, cool, that's great. But then I said, Oh, you know, you should start dribbling downstairs again. Um, and she was like, I already know how to dribble. Well, you're not very good at it. But like in her brain, like, why would I need a practice? Yeah, yeah. I'm already good, like I already know how to.

SPEAKER_05 15:57

I've prayed before. Why would I practice prayer?

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Or yeah, I um I I've talked to God, I've given my butt like I've done it once, or I accepted Jesus in my life. Right. Now I can just live the way I want to. No, yeah, it's like there's the practice behind it where, like we've been talking in the series and we talked about last series, it's an ongoing process that until Jesus calls us home or he returns, we're gonna keep on developing that character. That's right. So it's not just, hey, I oh, I can dribble a basketball, I don't need a practice anymore. Yeah. Well, then you're not gonna ever be all that God wants you to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

100%.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Or you're not gonna be the basketball player you want to become.

SPEAKER_05 16:37

You know, yeah, exactly. Exactly. The thing that I would maybe want to close this piece of the conversation with, because I think that that's good. I think we have to understand, and I don't know that I communicated this well yesterday, so we can try to communicate it better today.

SPEAKER_06 16:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

Um we put it up on the screen, lifted hands, teach your heart who your source is. And to me, as I was like praying through this, studying through it, there's this idea that man, when we're gonna lift our hands and it's gonna develop dependence in us, right? It's like to Brad, I think you said earlier, God, I need you. I don't really know how to do it. I'm gonna practice it, but I don't really know. I probably need a coach to help, right? Yeah, but as I lift my hands and uh dependence is being developed in me, I'm learning. This is like knowledge language, I'm learning who my source is, right? I I haven't felt it yet. I'm not I've not moved to a place where where it's internalized, it's not a belief system yet, it is just knowledge language stuck in my head. But by lifting my hands, I have to begin to teach myself who is my source? Why would I be dependent on him? I'm not even there yet. I just need to know that I can be dependent on him.

SPEAKER_06 17:59

Right?

SPEAKER_05 17:59

So he's got to develop that in me. And now, as we kind of talk about the second little phase of declaring, I think then we can at the end of that conversation, we can make the transition from knowledge language to heart language. But Brad, I'll let you kind of transition us in.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah, it reminds me, you mentioned this yesterday, and I kind of, as we got into um worshiping at the end, of just like there's this posture that I feel like we can declare that dependence. I talked about like just our our daughters when they get, you know, when I can tell they are declaring, like, dad, I need you. Yes. And they lift their hands up, or we were doing some uh we had a guest worship um leader come in and he was saying the same thing about his daughter. Like she's a little younger, like two years old, and she'll come up to him and be like, Uppie. Like, and it's like that means I I want you, I need I want to be up with you. And I think having that same type of declaration, yeah, kind of like we were just talking about with our Heavenly Father, yeah, that man, I I want to just be with you, like in this moment, Lord Uppy, like get let me let me be with you, let me, or like for our girls, it's usually at nighttime where um even my oldest daughter who's nine, like she comes up to me and it's just like a I surrender.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Uh I want you to hold me and I want you to put me to bed.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Yeah, it's just like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

And yeah, I think once again, it can be such a hard spot when we want to figure it out on our own. Or maybe we're like, man, I want instant gratification, so I'm gonna text a friend instead.

SPEAKER_05 19:33

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

But no come come to the Father.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Because in the declaration of dependence, yeah, it becomes a little bit more relational. It's not just like, all right, God, if you really are gonna develop it in me, right? Here I am. It's now like, God, here I am. I want to be with you, which is why we use that verse from Psalm 143, verse 6, where he says, I lift my hands to you in prayer, but then the part that I thought, man, how convicting is this? He says, I thirst for you, as parched land thirst for rain. Like, think about that. That's that's a little bit what you're saying with your daughters, right, Brad? It's like, all right, Uppy, right? Like, I want to be with you. I like I've I've I'm declaring I am dependent on you. You lift me up. I'm not jumping up, I'm not climbing a ladder, I'm not trying to like you get me. I'm dependent on you. And how often do we sit there and say, Man, like, God, I'm thirsting for you. Like, in the same way that you think of like the Sahara Desert being like, Man, if it got some rain, like it would just be quenched.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:46

And I I I love that imagery that you just gave us of of Uppy, right? I love the imagery of like saying, Man, like I surrender here.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Every time I go to surrender now, I'm gonna be like, Uppy. Lord, lift me up.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Well, I think you said that yesterday. You know, kids lift their hands up. Yeah. Because I wrote that or I type that down like as a note.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Like, yeah, I think you both did.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Like it's instinctual.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah. As a kid.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Like we don't teach them to raise their hands to kind of get picked up.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

They just I want help.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

But they don't always want it right away. No. Yeah. Right? Like that's the thing. That's like us. We don't always want it right away.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah, when they need it.

SPEAKER_05 21:28

Yeah, it's a it's when it's this point of like almost like, all right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Exhaust exhaustion or like and it is interesting too, because sometimes they just want comfort. Sometimes it's just like I'm coming to you for comfort. Yeah. Then there's other times where they're at the point of absolute complete exhaustion, and it's like, I totally surrender and here I am. You know, like it um there's different steps to it.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah. And so the more that we practice that dependence, yeah, it doesn't have to Be just at a a point where we're at a low, yes, or a point where at a high. Right. It can be all throughout life of just uh a heart possible. Yeah. Or just but once again that practice.

SPEAKER_05 22:13

Because another D word that we could use in this whole thing is so if lifted hands develop dependence and lifted hands declare dependence, really as it develops dependence, what it also does is it develops desire.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

And it develops discipline. Another D word. Oh, like that.

SPEAKER_05 22:29

And the the desire to be disciplined to want to do that, right? But like the desire is like now it's not just like, all right, God, if you're gonna like I need you, I'm at the end of no, it's like before I ever get to the end of myself, before I ever hit rock bottom, I'm gonna proactively be like, no, I'm getting in the arms of my father.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah, let me desire you.

SPEAKER_05 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:49

And so we said, all right, go back to knowledge language, okay? Lifted hands, teach your heart who your source is. Right? That's knowledge. That's that's between the ears. Yeah. Right? Like, if you could see where I'm pointing, I'm pointing right to my temples. Right? That's where that's where that sentence probably lives. But as we talk about going from developing to declaring, right, as we have some desire, then it goes from the temples down to our heart, right? And it becomes lifted hands now. Don't just teach. Lifted hands train your heart, not the who the source is, lifted hands train your heart who to trust.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:28

I can't trust with my brain.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

This is a big piece of it. This is where the heart transformation truly begins.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Because we have to get to a place of trust in God. And I know that sounds so Christian and cliche, but it's so true. When we actually talk through this, how many of us have trust issues with God?

SPEAKER_05 23:48

Oh man, every one of us, but and how many of us actually admit it?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Where it's like, yeah, I guess because of my control there, I I really didn't trust God in that.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Your yeah, your actions would show that you don't trust God even if you think that you do.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Yeah, right. Which is just a another mark of spiritual growth, spiritual formation, spiritual maturity, where it's like, okay, I know that he is trustworthy. Yeah. I know that people on this earth have made my idea of trust um it's been lacking because of how people have formed my idea of trust. But I have to separate the people on this earth from God because he is a set apart, he is holy, he is righteous, he is trustworthy. Um and I have to yeah, I have to teach my brain that and then let him train my heart that is trustworthy.

SPEAKER_05 24:41

And and I to encourage you, the listener, is once again, okay, my hands, my fingers are pointing at my temples again, and we know that if that's where it starts and we want it to ultimately end in our heart, the reality is for it's not just gonna be like boom, now it's there.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:59

Right? It's going to progressively move down over time, and you have to begin to give yourself a little bit of grace and understanding that you know what, man, maybe yesterday was a point where it began to move from your temples, and now it's like at your jaw. Awesome. Continue to allow it to lower over time.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:21

Like take that momentum and allow it to get down to your heart. Don't be disappointed in yourself, don't be judging yourself, condemning yourself.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

No shame, guilt, or condemnation.

SPEAKER_05 25:33

Right. But also no settling and being like, well, better than where it was, good now, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Right, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 25:40

We need to make sure that we're saying, Man, I gotta get that into my heart because I need to train my heart who to trust. And to your point, Brad, from earlier about basketball or any sport or any discipline, Amanda, like the only way that I can get good at a practice is through training.

SPEAKER_06 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:57

Right? And so we have to understand that the practices also then, which are worship and prayer in this instance, through lifted hands, become the training ground, become the things that train our heart. Yeah. I'm not just going to say, Well, I I asked God to develop it one time, and now I'm just gonna say it and hope that it tri No, I'm going to continue to do it.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

And you have to understand he's gonna give you opportunities, and I say opportunity because that is a positive word, but he is going to give you opportunities that will deepen your dependence on him.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Um and uh train you to declare dependence on him. And it is going to be it can be challenging, it can be painful, it can be hard, but we need to look at that as an opportunity. Like this is an opportunity for me to gain intimacy with my father.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

So to that point, we talked about this concept, and I I do want to hit on it here because I think a lot of people can find ourselves in on either extreme of this. But we said lifted hands isn't about emotionalism, it's about alignment, right? So I'm not just praying or worshiping because man, at church the worship set was great, and then it fit my preference. Yeah, and then I got in the car, and wow, can you believe it? The verse of the day lines up with what we talked about. Man, that makes me feel so I'm just jacked. And then that person said this thing, and that was awesome, and someone affirmed this, yeah, and I'm on spiritual mountaintop. So yes, I will praise and worship.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

We don't just praise on the mountaintop or in the valley.

SPEAKER_05 27:26

We don't just only praise in the valley either.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 27:29

We have live a life of praise and worship and prayer, yeah, and we develop that in us because it's about alignment, not about emotionalism. And the reality is many of us would lean to one extreme or the other of hyper-emotionalists, or we don't experience any emotions through all of it, where I think that the middle ground is like, hey, the Lord gave us emotions, he wants us to understand those emotions and what those mean in our life, but to not only praise and worship him whenever I've got really strong negative emotions or really strong positive emotions.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah, and I think you need to clarify like emotions aren't bad.

SPEAKER_05 28:05

That's what I said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Right. Emotions aren't bad, but we are not to be ruled by our emotions.

SPEAKER_05 28:09

Yep. And I think emotions are the gauges on your dashboard.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

They tell you if the engine's running too hot, they tell you if you need to add more oil, they tell you if you're out of gas. That's what emotions are. That's it. Then in spirit and in truth, we respond to those emotions to get us to a place where we respond to those gauges to get us to a place where now the gauges are all running at optimum.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

And we submit the emotions under the Lord's will constantly. Because if not, we will be driven by emotion. So we have to constantly bring that under him and surrender our emotion to him.

SPEAKER_05 28:49

And the Bible, for those of you who are like, well, I have no idea how. The Bible gives us a lot of very clear things that we can do. Now that might make it hard or challenging, but we have to be very clear that, like the Bible says, take every thought captive. So when you have angry thoughts, when you have sad thoughts, when you have depressed thoughts, when you have all of these different thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

You have the authority through Christ Jesus to take those thoughts captive.

SPEAKER_05 29:11

Yes. And this could be its own hour-long conversation. So I don't want to I don't want to act like it's that this is, but I just want us to be clear that the Bible does talk about it. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you have far more authority over your emotions and how you feel than you often think because your feelings can dictate so much of our lives.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

And just a practical side note, you can go into your Bible app and in the search bar, if you are struggling with a certain type of emotion, anger, frustration, uh, sadness, gladness, like any of that, just type it in in the search bar and see what the Bible has to say about it.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Just a little practical piece. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

I think that's where that trust factor comes in too, knowing that, like, hey, no matter like, I don't have to have this heightened emotion to think that God is with me or loves me.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Um I remember feeling this like a couple years back, some guys and I we had like this challenge where we did of like certain things, and one was starting your day off with just 10 minutes of just silence. And it was supposed to be on your knees, just in like a a position where you're like, you know, here I am, yeah, declaring dependence. And I remember the first time I was in that position, I was like I I had a I could see like a little tight or our clock over in the kitchen, and like, okay, it's say 6.05, 6.15, I'm gonna be, you know, done. And but just almost being like, okay, I can't wait to just feel this presence that I've never felt before. And I'm looking at the clock and I look over, it's probably like you know, 6.08 and like three, okay, three minutes. Like, come on, Lord, like, yeah, let me get some moves. I only got seven more. I only got seven more, and I'm not feeling and then I remember like that whole time almost thinking, like, man, I'm in a posture where I'm like ready to receive. Why am I not feeling any difference? And you know, then it's like 614, and I hear like just this thought so evident, like in my brain, that says, Do you trust me? Do you trust that I'm with you even if you don't have this, like, like you talked about, this mountaintop, like, man, here I am. Like, right, you know, Moses when God first reveals himself. It's like, I think sometimes we expect those, but it's just like, no, like, just trust me and know that I am with you, like you said, Pastor Kyle, in like the the heightened pace, in the valley, in the mundane. Yes. And I think when we just like have that trust, it changes our perspective on who God is. Yeah, yeah. So good.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

I mean, he literally lives in our hearts, he is with us all the time.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah. So the last piece here is with our lifted hands, it deepens our dependence of God. Um, I love the scripture that you shared yesterday of you know Moses holding his rod, and then there's a point where every any time um the the rod went down, the opposing army came in full throttle and moved in. But then, you know, her and Aaron take Moses' hands, yeah, yeah, help him hold him up, and because of that, the battle was was won. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

So I could go on a another hour-long tangent that I wouldn't even need you guys for, I don't think, and I don't mean that in a bad way, like about community and the desire for it. Yeah, um because I would have been the type of person who's like, no, I don't trust people. I don't want to trust people, they're more work than it's worth.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

For sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:47

For sure. Which is true. Yeah. A hundred percent right. You're gonna get hurt. It's inevitable. It's inevitable.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

And yet God still designed us to be deepened in dependence, not just through him and him alone, but through his people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

And I just saw a clip this morning talking about that that said it was I don't remember who the guy was, so it but it this is not my thought. But he said, Yeah, you cannot be a successful Christian unless you are plugged into a local church. Period. He said there's a lot of people, like younger people right now, that chase a certain speaker or they chase this worship leader that kind of bounces, they chase, they keep chasing and chasing and chasing and never get plugged in and they're not rooted, they don't have community.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

Well, that's what I was gonna say. I want to I want to make sure people hear what you just said. Yeah, you said plugged into a local church, not attend a local church. Yeah, plugged in. Very different. I can attend a lot of things. I can only be plugged in at a few.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

I think he said involved. You have to be involved.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

Yeah, which is yeah, yeah. And so, like, that's that's what we see here. It's Exodus chapter 17, verses 8 through 13. We're not gonna read it for the sake of time, yeah. But that's a story where Moses has to go to the mountaintop to win a battle. Well, God's gonna win the battle through Joshua who's fighting. Moses is just holding a staff.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:01

But the point we were making yesterday was living a life of lifted hands, of worship, praise, and prayer is really freaking hard. Yeah. Like it's really hard to do that on a consistent basis. Your arms will get tired because it fights against every natural instinct you have. To go to God first before you go to your phone or to your spouse or to your friend, or to pray instead of being anxious, as Brad said from Philippians 4. Right? Like it fights against everything we would possibly have. Yeah. Then to go and be in relationship, to be like, okay, I'm you're right, Kyle. My hands are or my arms are gonna get tired. So now instead of just saying, I guess I can't do it, God's gonna put people around me. No, no, no, no, no. Like people have failed me, people have hurt me.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:48

Like living with lifted hands is so much harder than we think it is, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Well, and in that verse in Exodus 17, 8 through 13, at the very end, it says, So his hands held steady until sunset. We need other people around us to help hold our hands steady. We can't do it alone. We'll get tired, we'll get weary, we'll get burdened, and we'll get all the things. We need people around us that are encouraging us, lifting us up, speaking life over our lives, challenging us, sharpening us. You know, like are people gonna hurt you? Yeah, but how much of that is a fence that you need to own?

SPEAKER_05 35:27

I mean, just a small short little testimony of of this is is I've often thought I just told you guys how would I have felt about community? Yeah. Right? And we're now roughly four or five months into uh committing to community as a as a family.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Consistent community.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

Yep, yep, consisting committing to consistent community as a family, yes. And so we we're do life with two other families on a consistent basis, and I mean until the last two weeks, like I mean, very quickly, I feel like we made whatever the term is like fast friends. Yeah, right. But then until the last two weeks, we're like, all right, babysitter's gone, we finished the study, we've ate our meal, we like we're all out. Not because we didn't enjoy each other, not because we don't like it. Yeah, just like that's just what we thought we did.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Right.

SPEAKER_05 36:17

Well, the last two weeks we found ourselves being like, well, we stayed for an extra two and a half hours.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

Right? And like just had conversations and talked about real life and prayed together and yeah, cry together, laughed together, all the things. Yeah, and it's it takes time. It takes time and it takes commitment. Even I said it last night to to uh one of the couples of like, man, like it's not that we didn't want to do this with people, yeah, but now like no matter kind of what's going on, like we desire to continue to do it and to stay longer and to have people who hold our arms up and to get to hold arms up for other people. Like we have to begin to shift and like we're not always just Moses. Yeah, we want to be Moses, we want to be the person who man, somebody come rally around me and hold my arms up. No, sometimes you're Aaron. Yeah, sometimes you're her. You go grab a freaking rock for somebody, put it underneath them, and hold their arms up. Yeah, like we live such a selfish life that we think when we read that story, we are always Moses.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 37:18

How many times has anybody ever read that story and said, ah, I can really resonate with Aaron right now?

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Well, and think about the times that, like you said yesterday, we've been called to be an Aaron or a her, and how many times have we not shown up? How many times have we not caught the drift of like, wow, they're really struggling? I mean, I can think of this in the last week where I knew someone was really struggling. Did I show up at their doorstep? No. Did I take them something? No. Did I check in the next morning? No. Like we're not gonna do that, you know? And it's like, man, we are called to be all three of those people in different seasons of life. And how often do we miss it?

SPEAKER_05 37:56

And sometimes, even to add the fourth, sometimes we're Joshua. We're gonna go out to the front of the battle. Yeah, I'm not holding somebody's air arms up, I'm not giving them a um a rock to sit on. I'm not even the one holding the staff. Sometimes I am Joshua out in front out of the battle saying, Hey, listen, let me go fight that battle for you.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Let me take the arrows. Yeah. Because God has prepared me and God is with me. Yes. And he has strengthened me, and that is where I'm at in this season.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yep. And I like how you said, like, to get to this point, it wasn't like, man, week three.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Man, this is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

But it was like, no, it took four to five months for you guys to build that intimacy, that trust, that um, that deepening of your guys' relationship so it can grow closer to God. Yeah. It wasn't just like four to five weeks where you're like, man, these are my like it took time, it took consistency, it took um you showing up and that commitment.

SPEAKER_05 38:53

Like, and it didn't even on the times when like the last two weeks, it wasn't even like, sweet, squad's here. Yeah. It was like, man, like let's what's going on in your life? And all of a sudden, through pain, through brokenness, through questions, through challenges, you that forms, right? It wasn't like a pep rally that got us to that point.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, and I think too, the piece in community that we all do need to understand, and I value this so much about our community group, we have to understand that relationship is a two-way street.

SPEAKER_05 39:24

100%.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

And when we show up, like we're not showing up to take all the space. We are showing up to check in on people and hear where they're at, and then when we're asked, we can share where we're at. But we don't go in just dumping on everybody saying, like, oh, life is so hard.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah, life is hard. Sure. But like we've all got hard. And so we need to honor and respect each other and the time that we have with one another when you're in community, and that's that's a piece of healthy community that I feel like a lot of people miss because we're so selfish and self self-focused.

SPEAKER_05 39:58

And I'm not saying that like we've got the model. I'm just saying, like, I've lived this.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

We're learning it.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

Like I've lived this and I've learned how selfish I can be. Yes. Like that's been a conversation that we've had in like the last like three weeks. So like, holy smokes.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

We're so selfish.

SPEAKER_05 40:10

I thought that I was crushing it in the selflessness department, and I'm actually way more selfish than I thought I was.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

God just keeps highlighting areas.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Well, the case in point is when you read Bible stories, are how many times are you Noah or Moses or David against Goliath? You're not the people praying for him.

SPEAKER_05 40:30

Yeah. It's like when we're Noah, we're doing the great thing of building the ark. We're not Noah afterwards who got drunk and had to be covered up by his kids who made the mistake. Yeah. Right? Like we're never we're never Noah at the bottom. Right. Yeah. We're Noah at being like, look at my ark. Right? Look at all the animals we got. Look at how I did what God asked. And it's not like Noah also. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

There's a human there's a human side to every every one of those.

SPEAKER_05 40:54

Yeah, a hundred percent. Uh that's that's such a good point. And I know for the sake of time, we gotta we gotta keep moving. I just um I would encourage you, listener, commit to finding people to do life with in a real, authentic, and vulnerable way. And understand that at one in one area you may be Moses. You may need your arms held up. But in another area, simultaneously, you might be Aaron.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:20

So you might be like, man, in our marriage, I'm Moses right now. I need someone to come hold my hand, my arms up. But man, over here in parenting or over here on the work thing, or hey, you got this challenge, you got this addiction. Let me hold your arms up over here.

SPEAKER_03 41:31

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 41:32

And there's a give and take in both. So um, yeah, I guess I just would say, like, as we lift our hands, as we live a life of worship and prayer, right? Like, it's not just about developing dependence, it's not even just about declaring it, but now he's going to deepen that in us.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

And for those of you that aren't in consistent community right now, just just think. Like, who are who are two to three families that we could do life with? Think about that. Pray about that. Ask the Lord, like, who are some people we can invite into our lives that would help grow us, sharpen us, bring us closer to Jesus.

SPEAKER_05 42:08

For sure. And I guess the way that I would um have us land this plane, uh, because the plane needs to land. I'm looking at our timer. We said our goal was to keep between thirty and forty minutes. We're at 4140. Um The way that I would land this is if we're going to develop dependence, we're going to declare dependence, and then we're going to have it deepened, then we have to understand that dependence is not even like just not a bad thing. Dependence is a good thing. Right. And the goal of dependence is not to outgrow it and to become independent and not need God. Yeah. Right? The goal is to grow into dependence deeply and become more and more dependent, which is counter-cultural. Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Which means that's what I was gonna say. I wrote that down. Yeah. I capitalized. Outgrow and into like you cannot, I think, like you said, cut it's cultural that you need to you don't need to depend on other people. You don't need anybody you're you're your be your own man, be your own self-reliance, baby. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

No. You are not gonna survive. Yeah. Yeah. How well how well has it gone so far trying that? Right. And you were never your own to begin with. Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

You've always been his. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

There's a roaring lion out there ready to steal, kill, and destroy.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Exactly.

unknown 43:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:28

And so the the thing I would say, and then Brad, if you have anything else you want to close with, um, I would love to hear it, or anybody else. But we said that lifted hands, and I want you to internalize this. Lifted hands aren't just a crisis button. Which in the beginning, as it's being developed, it feels like it's developed out of crisis. Rock bottom, being at my end, right? Like I have nothing left, so I guess I'll try dependence. But lifting hands aren't just a crisis button, they're a daily practice. And I think if we're going to live A life of having hands that are lifted, right? Like live a life saying, Hey, my whole life is worship to God, setting my attention, affection, and focus on Him. Everything I do is a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_06 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:10

Right? Like, if we're gonna live our life that way, and then saying, Hey, I'm gonna live a life of prayer, be in communication with him, talk to him, listen to him, sit in solitude, right? Wait the 10 minutes or the however long it is for him to say, Hey, do you trust me? And be like, Man, that's good, God. Because no, I don't.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

And that's fun with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:30

Right?

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Like that's my next step.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

To live our life that way, we have to have it be a daily practice. Because we're putting these practices into place so that we can be trained. And through the training, through the practicing, then we experience that formation that we've been talking about. The inner person, the inner world is being shaped and formed into the image of Jesus, but the image of Jesus then begins to present itself through the outer life that we live. That's good. Any other thoughts? Lots, but we're out of time. Yeah, we're out of time. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Let's pray. Ongoing process. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 45:09

We'll continue next Monday. Yeah. Let's pray. Father, we love you, man. We are so grateful for you. And um God, we're grateful that we have opportunities to learn about you, to talk about you, to have conversations about you, to talk to you, to listen to you, to sit in solitude. We thank you that you have given us your spirit to be on the inside of us. Lord, that we don't want to just gloss over that. We don't just want to take that for granted. But, Father, we know that part of your formation is us getting to partner with the spirit you've placed on the inside of us. For any of us who are sitting here and withholding or, you know, having guards up against your formation, Father, we just ask that you would soften our hearts, that you would open our eyes to see you, open our ears to hear you, open our hands to receive from you, allow our arms to be lifted so that we can develop dependence in you, Father. Because the ultimate goal is that each and every one of us, us four in the room, and those who are listening, would partner with you to look more and more like you. Like, Father, that's all that we want. It's all that we should want. And so, Lord, we just ask that you would begin to do that work in us so that out of us comes fruit and a life that looks more like you. Father, we pray for the for the listener who's uh at the place of wanting to develop dependence. Father, we hope we pray that you help them just to lift their hands and as they communicate with you, as they worship you, Father, that they would um God, that they would be able to see how you're working. God, that that dependence would be able to be developed because you're building faith in them, that they're learning knowledge language, that they're learning who their source is, that they see you as their source. But Father, we pray that we can transition from just having it developed and living in our brain to the heart level of saying, I'm gonna declare my dependence. Father, that I'm not just gonna declare it, but I know that I'm going to internalize it and believe it in my heart, that man, I am dependent upon you, Lord. And then, Father, for those of us who who are at that place, man, we want to have dependence deepened in us through you. But God, we know that that's gonna come through your people as well. And so, Lord, we pray that you help us to forgive offenses. We pray that you help us to uh live free from anger and controversy and bitterness, Lord, that you would um just free us from that because we know that those are the things that become wedges between us and other people, between us and having a deep independence. And so, Father, for those who are hesitant to enter into relationship with others, who have been hurt by others, who have hurt other people, Father, we pray that we can come to you, repent, get right, and then, Father, enter into relationship with other people, having the right perspective, that they are your children who you love, who are all trying to pursue you together, knowing that we will all fail and we will all sin, but the goal is to look more and more like you over time. So, God, we love you. We thank you for this time, and we thank you for God's ability to have these discussions. We pray for the listener, pray that you are cultivating in their heart, God, uh a desire to grow and know you more and to love you and to be loved by you. In Jesus' name. Everyone said, Amen. Amen. We will see y'all next week for part three, talking about open hands. Enjoy the weather.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Love you guys.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

Oh, yeah, this is released on time. Enjoy the weather, guys. It's gonna be beautiful today.