Navigate - A Tower Life Center Podcast
Navigate is a discussion-based podcast designed to help us live our lives as followers of Jesus in a fallen and ever-changing world. In this discussion based format, we are diving into topics that will help to shape and form the framework of how we live our lives. Our goal is to help all of us navigate our lives by becoming more like Jesus.
Navigate - A Tower Life Center Podcast
Holy Hands Week 3 Discussion - How do I live with open hands trusting God instead of controlling things, people and situations?
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This week we had a discussion around living our lives open handed - trusting God instead of trying to control the things, people and situations He has placed in our hands. That's hard and we outlined some ways we can practically begin to live it out in our daily lives.
Welcome to Navigate, a podcast discussion from Tower Life Center, where we talk about how to navigate life, living as a follower of Jesus in a fallen and ever-changing world. Let's join the discussion.
SPEAKER_05Hello, welcome back, team. How are we doing?
SPEAKER_02Hey, we are good. Welcome back to the gold.
SPEAKER_00Listen, 70 yesterday, 31 today.
SPEAKER_02Zach does a great job of editing, but if you hear anything in the background, it'd be shingles getting ripped off the roof.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_02Or walls falling in the room.
SPEAKER_00Well, trampolines and shingles. That's our hundreds of things.
SPEAKER_02Your house is old. It's an ancient artifact. Yeah. It has been a little bit more than that.
SPEAKER_04I wish that was the case. That was negative.
SPEAKER_00Six months old, maybe?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00Man. Hopefully that's in the If anybody knows how to chop up a trampoline. Come share that with us. Yeah. We need your wisdom.
SPEAKER_04Or reshingle just a few areas on our roof. But man. Grateful. Evan, where are you at?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. Love it.
SPEAKER_04That's why Jesus says don't store your treasures up here on earth, right? Not stored here.
SPEAKER_00That is a fact.
SPEAKER_04We're moths. Moths. Not moths. Moths. We're moths. Moths rust. Or women. Mr. Linds.
SPEAKER_02That's a million.
SPEAKER_00Today is getting a million time of a wedding.
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness. Listen, if you're still with us, which I'd be shocked that anybody's still listening, we will start.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And if you have been dialing in, we're uh in a series. Um we were talking about God's hands, which is holy hands, then we went to um lifted hands, and this week we're diving into part three of this, which is open hands.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Hopefully this has been uh something that's been helpful uh and impactful and something that's helped grow us spiritually, uh helped grow us into spiritually mature and spiritually growing followers of Jesus. And so uh we're praying that this series is one that is a foundational thing where we're beginning to discuss the concept of spiritual formation, right? Because it's holy hands is a series and the little subtitle is a father's formation, and it's really this concept overall that says, hey, we were formed by our Heavenly Father before we ever came out of the womb. Right? He had things for us to do, he made us perfectly, he knew us intimately, he loved us that much, right? But then we were deformed by sin, that of ours and other people. And then now we're all on this journey of reformation or transformation that we've called spiritual formation, right? This process of looking more and more. I think the verse we've been using is 2 Corinthians chapter 3, verse 18, um, where it says that the Spirit is forming us more and more into the image of Jesus for the glory of God. Right. And that's what we're really talking about. And we're saying, man, if God has the holy hands, right, the ones that formed us, then our hands should have a response. Our hands should be in postures that would respond to the formation, the ongoing spiritual formation of our Father. And so week one, we really talked about his formation. Week two was last week, we talked about lifted hands, you know, through worship and through prayer. And then week three, which was yesterday, as we record on a Monday morning. Uh, yesterday was open hands. And so I I feel like, and I don't know if you guys felt this. You guys can tell me, those of you who listened or talked to people or who were in the room, but I feel like yesterday turned the the heat up a little bit and uh made us a little uncomfortable whether we were sitting in chairs or standing on a stage. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
SPEAKER_00I think it was uh a very self-reflective message from from myself and then from what I heard from many, many people, um, where people are taking the time to actually self-reflect and examine their own hearts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I think it definitely challenged all of us.
SPEAKER_02For sure. I mean, I know it did for me, but I have to marinate on it. You know, if I start on a Monday, like I've got it for seven days by the time. Right. I have to share it with people. So I I can say that's true for me, but I don't know. Uh but it felt that as I as I'm as I'm speaking it, I can feel it in the seats. Sometimes you can feel like, oh, people are having fun at church, they're glad they came.
SPEAKER_00You can feel the temperature and you see everybody slouching in their seats.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and sometimes it's like, yeah, this they're all not happy they chose that today's the time. Yeah. Right. And so uh I'm hoping that that's just the conviction. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and no shame, guilt, or condemnation.
SPEAKER_02Right, for sure. It's just these are tough things as we truly talk about spiritual formation. Yeah, at least in my opinion, if we're truly gonna say, man, I want the spirit of God, I want to partner with the spirit of God, as we said, to transform me and and turn me more and more into the image of Jesus. Like that is gonna have some pain points. That is gonna be a process that we might not be comfortable with.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_05And is really gonna be the only way that we get to that posture of open hands. Yeah. Because any other thing that's forming us that is whether it's from the world or uh like is just gonna tell us the opposite because I feel like the kingdom of God is just upside down, you know? Yeah, like you want joy, okay, put others first, not yourself. Like where the the world would tell you, hey, you want joy, love yourself over yourself, yeah. Yeah, J-O-I, Jesus others yourself, no. But like the world perspective would be like, hey, yeah, yeah, like do you make what's better, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Protect your peace.
SPEAKER_05But um knowing that there's a different posture with this open hands comes, I think true freedom that we all are um searching after.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a freedom that we've been searching for and maybe haven't quite experienced, so this is a new uh it's new territory for a lot of us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so much of what we talked about last week, so week two, lifted hands, right, is not this mutually exclusive topic from open hands, right? Because we said that if I'm going to, and this is making an assumption for all of us, but man, if I'm gonna live my life with lifted hands, worship and prayer, which we said is a one uh is a signal that I am depending on God, right? I'm gonna depend on God for my formation, for my sustenance, for my provision, for all of that through worship and prayer. If I'm doing that, then we said that the reality is now lifted hands and open hands become so closely tied together, uh, the way we said it yesterday was in lifting my hands through worship and prayer, I become keenly aware of the areas in my life where I have closed fist instead of open hands. Right? This this idea that, man, once I understand, man, I'm I want to lean into my relationship with God.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Once I say, Man, I want to lean into prayer, I want to lean into allowing him to speak to me, uh, his Holy Spirit to convict me, inform me, and I'm depending on him for all of that, I'm gonna feel the areas where I've got closed fist instead of open hands.
SPEAKER_00That pressure is gonna tighten a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. And when we become aware of that, we said, well, what does that mean? What do I do? Well, I want to take a second and just read uh Romans 12, 1 through 2. And we use the NLT. Brad, we've talked about this earlier. You were gonna read something from the message. Let me let me use the NLT to set the table. Then Brad will take the the paraphrase that is in the message, and he'll tell us what does the message say about Romans 12, 1 and 2. But here is the verse as we talk about this concept of of how to lift hands and open hands work together. In verse 1 it says, And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you, give your bodies to God because of all he's done for you. Let them be a living and a holy sacrifice, the kind he will find acceptable. And if we stop there, that feels a lot like open hands. Then he says, This is truly the way to worship him. Well now we're bringing in lifted hand language into open hand language, right? And so we see that they are brought together. He says, Don't copy the behaviors and the customs of this world, but let God transform you, so spiritual formation, into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good, pleasing, and perfect. So that's the NLT, Brad. Why don't you show us what the message paraphrase says? Message, our man Eugene Peterson.
SPEAKER_05I'll perform these ones. But uh uh it's the subtitle here is Place Your Life Before God, and and verse one it starts off by saying, So here's what I want you to do with God helping you, take your everyday, ordinary life, your sleeping, your eating, going to work, or going to school, you're walking around life and place it before God as an offering. Embracing what God does for you is the best thing that you can do for Him. Don't become so well adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking. Instead, fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the inside out. Readily recognize what he wants from you and quickly respond to it. Unlike the culture around you, always dragging you down to its level of immaturity, God brings out the best of you, develops well-formed maturity in yourself.
SPEAKER_00That's good.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, just very uh applicable of man, how like focusing on what God has done for you, yeah, what he is wants to do in you, yeah, um will change you from the inside out. For sure.
SPEAKER_02And and as we do that, as we live what you just marked out, right? Like now we're going from this lifted hands depending on God through worship and prayer, which maintains and and continues to be a part of our life, but now we're saying, man, through that, I'm laying my life every part of my day, every part of my being awake and sleep, all as a as an offering or as a sacrifice, right, as giving it all to God because that's the best way that we can do anything for Him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I feel like in this heart posture we're moving from maybe subconsciously resisting what the Lord has to maturely embracing what he has for us. And in the message, Brad, you had mentioned at the end of it, um, maybe you can read it again, the heart posture of uh the words were readily and what were it, what was the other word?
SPEAKER_05Readily recognize what he wants from you and quickly respond to it.
SPEAKER_00That, yeah. And just having that heart posture when when he speaks, when you read something in his word, not resisting it, but diving into it immediately and saying, okay, like yes, that's what I want because I want the maturity with him, I want the intimacy with him, I want to move forward in that direction. I'm not gonna sit here and um fleshly resist it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I think the n the challenge we have is all of this can sound great. Yeah. Right? All of this can be like, yes, hear that, Brad, hear that from the NLT. Yep. I get all of that. But what we said is as we become aware of our closed fist versus open hands, we have to understand now why do we have closed fists. And the the place where things got a little tight yesterday, or I felt it at least. Felt the pressure. Was was in the the realization of the difference between closed fist and open hands. Yeah. And we said that closed fists control, open hands trust. Right? And now we have this this conversation where we have to say, Man, am I trying to control certain things? Do I have the trust in God that we are called to live with? And that point of, I think, Amanda, your word was reflection, self-reflection, you said. Yeah. I think that point of self-reflection now is like, oh. Am I being controlling with certain things? Which if you would say no, you would say you're a I would say you're a liar. Because all of us have control issues with something. Or things that we want to control. Yeah, for sure. Right? And so we said, okay, let's assume that we are open to that concept. Uh the way that I wrote it in my notes, it wasn't on a screen yesterday, but I don't think I said it well, is control is our attempt to guarantee results. Like we have to understand that we're controlling in an attempt to guarantee something to happen.
SPEAKER_00So that we know the result.
SPEAKER_01I thought more specifically when you said that, I was like, not just guarantee results, but guarantee the results that I want.
SPEAKER_02For sure.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02For sure.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's what 100%.
SPEAKER_02Because then I wrote down guaranteed results are our attempt to protect ourselves from the things we're afraid of losing, the things we're afraid of happening, or the things that we're afraid of coming true.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so if we just talked for a second about the the thought process that I'm going to control to guarantee results, leave the second half of that, just the first part of like, I'm going to control to guarantee results. What does the Bible say about that? And we had the standard Proverbs 3, 5 through 6, which is trust in the Lord with all your heart, don't depend on your own understanding. Which ironically, or not ironically, but classic God, I didn't know that I was going to use this verse, but like we spent all last week talking about dependence. Yeah. And now he's saying, Hey, trust in the Lord and don't depend on your own understanding, which would depend on me. Right, depend on me, which is lifted hands. Yeah. Right? And so that was the like that was the one that's like the principle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then a lot of people ask, how do we do that? Which then you go into the second part of this verse. Well, you seek his will in all that you do, and he will show you which path to take.
SPEAKER_02For sure. And that sounds so like well, of course.
SPEAKER_00But we have to be consciously praying for his will. And I think a lot of the times if we're really self-evaluating our hearts, we're we're idealistically praying for our own will most of the time. And I think we have to get to this place of seeking him for his will. What is your will in this scenario? What what would you have me do? Where would you have me go? Yeah. Who would you have me impact?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Or kind of like you hit on yesterday, was um like recognizing that, man, the reason you have maybe that say financial blessing is from God. He gave you the gift to, you know, get that job or use your skill sets here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so it's like, okay, having awareness then when you see a need, you know what his will is.
SPEAKER_00Because you recognize what he's done.
SPEAKER_05And it it can bring up an opportunity to bless somebody, or maybe it's maybe it's not even from a financial perspective, maybe it's just your willingness, your your time to to serve. And man, that the Lord has blessed you with the ability to want to be around people or want to use your gifts, and whether it's preparing food or just being present and listening, yeah. Like he's given you those things.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_05And so many times, like it's so easy to just use it for your own gain.
SPEAKER_00100%. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And but man, and when we recognize, like you said, like, man, this is all a gift from him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And when we do trust in the Lord with all of our heart, we don't lean on just my own understanding. What is my gain, what is but depend on him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05He's gonna he's gonna make the path on his.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I love that. And I love the so what we just read in Proverbs and what we just kind of unpacked for a second is is the way I said it yesterday, and this is just how my brain works, is that's a really good principle. But now we get James who comes in and he's a lot more pastoral, and he's a little bit more confrontational. Where he says in James 4, 13 through 16, this it's the same message of Proverbs 3, but he says it way more personal to us. He says, Look here, you who say today or tomorrow we're gonna go to a certain town and we'll stay there for a year. We'll do business there, we'll make profit. How do you know what your life will be like tomorrow? Your life is like the morning fog, it's here for a while, then it's gone. What you ought to say is this if the Lord wants us to, we will live and do this or that. Otherwise, you're boasting about your own pretentious plans, and all such boasting is evil.
SPEAKER_00And if the room didn't have pressure after that scripture, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05Isn't that so? Like, that's just our American culture, though, in a nutshell. Like, man, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna retire at 58, I'm gonna move to Florida, I'm gonna golf, I'm gonna do and it's like, who are you to say like that? Sounds great, but like, like, that's not what the intention is here.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. We have to stay focused on the main goal.
SPEAKER_02And that's so easy to be like, yeah, you're right, Brad. But what is it whenever it's like, hey, today or tomorrow we're gonna go to a certain town and stay there for a year? What if it's like, hey, this is what I'm gonna do to be in ministry, or this is what I'm gonna do to live the way that I think God would want me to. And I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna check that box, and I'm gonna do all these things, and it sounds really good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I I feel like that's where I can be so uh feel the guilt sometimes, especially reading this, because there's so many times I'm like, man, maybe down the road my girls are going to copy. I'll go to if someone goes to nursing school, I'll go with them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then we Carly and I can go and once again, good intentions, go and do like an assignment here and love on people. But it's like, oh my goodness, when we're that has no open hand vibe.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_02But but what you ought to say is this, if the Lord wants us to, I'm happy to go to nursing school.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm open to it.
SPEAKER_02I'm happy to go to that assignment. I'm happy to do that. I'm happy to show up there. I'm happy to and it doesn't have to always be this big thing down the road. It can be like, man, I'm I'm happy to show up for that person on Thursday. Yep.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm happy to if the Lord wants me to, yeah. I'm happy to do that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But we have to be able to say, Man, am I open-handed, or do I have my hands so much around my schedule or my future or my bank account or my kids or my spouse or my whatever, right? Like do am I even willing to go down that path of saying, Man, if if it's the Lord's will, I'm just gonna seek his will as Proverbs 3 6 said, and he'll show me which path to take, which is why I can say, Man, if the Lord wants me to. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But that is pray for open doors and closed doors and eyes to see and discernment to know.
SPEAKER_02Preach, yeah. And those are all great things to do once we've decided to live with open hands. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02But if you pray that prayer and you say, No, I'm living with my closed fist, you're gonna you're gonna feel like you and you and God are like button heads on top of a mountain like a ram. That's what it's gonna feel like because you're you've got your closed fist, and he's like, Well, you prayed. You said open doors, close doors, show me what you like. So we have to begin to unpack that.
SPEAKER_05Um And I think another easy posture to be in sometimes as Christ followers is this combination of lifted hands, so your hands are up in like the surrender, but still have that closed best. Yeah. Yeah. Of those like specific things that you've got to do. 100%. Yeah. Um, and I think we're probably gonna touch base on this, but another thing that you pointed out yesterday was just kind of like what areas you control the most are probably the areas where you trust God.
SPEAKER_02Professional tease. We'll get there in just a second. I want to make one more stop on our journey to there. Yeah. Because I think that that's where we need to end up having the discussion. But there's one more thing I want to talk about, which is we've talked about the concept of control is guaranteeing results. And we just were like, well, yeah, we shouldn't control, and this is what the Bible says. But we have to understand, in my opinion, why are we trying to guarantee results? Well, if you go back to what I jotted down in my notes, I'm not saying that's the the end all be all. That's just the language we're using for today. Was we guarantee results in an attempt to protect ourselves uh from the things we're afraid of losing, happening, or coming true. Right? So really we control from this place of fear. Because we want to maintain our safety.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Self-protection, self-preservation.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and it's it can be emotional safety, it can be spiritual safety, it can be physical safety, it can be um mental safety, it can be health safety, it can be all of these things, and they can even sound noble and good, right? But what I think we just read in James is that James doesn't just expose uh this this idea that control is bad. What he does is he exposes that control is an illusion. And we said yesterday that the illusion of control gives you the illusion of safety. And like I I want nothing more out of this message than for people to understand that sentence. That control, even though you think you have control, it's an illusion. Right? Like you don't really have control, you just think you do. But you're squeezing with closed fists trying to control the things that God's placed in your hands, and you think you have control, but you really don't. That's why probably one of the things that I had the most feedback from yesterday in the room, not after, but in the room, like the times that people came the most uh out of their their seat emotionally would have been the time whenever they opened their eyes after falling asleep or something. No, the the the the question I asked of if you do feel like you control, how's that working for you? Right? And a lot of people had it so you know, some people had that, some people are like, oh yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And to me, that's that is what tells us that it's an illusion. Because we think we have control, but the reality is it's further out of our I'm doing air quotes control than when we were squeezing the the you know what out of it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You're literally squeezing it out of your hands. You think of it like a liquid in your hand, and the tighter you squeeze, the more oozes out, and it's like you literally have no control over it.
SPEAKER_02Right. Right. And yeah, the best way to keep, you know, soap in your hand is not to squeeze it, it's just to keep it your hand kind of open and and so I don't know, it's just like it's a control is an illusion, but I think the piece we have to understand is what you're trying to achieve through control, which is safety, is also an illusion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like it isn't none of us are good enough to keep ourselves and everyone that we're trying to control safe.
SPEAKER_00Which is where we have to go to God and trust that he is sovereign and he will keep us safe in regards of what he deems safe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. So one what a pro transition there to Brad's pro-T's from earlier. Where we control the most reveals where we trust God the least. Yeah. Right? Like I think that the the challenge that I extended to the church yesterday was, and uh, I still feel good about this, but I'd love for you guys to to talk about this next sentence. I don't think we have control issues, I think we have trust issues.
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_02And if we don't trust God, then we end up controlling. But if we think that where we're at in that moment is I've got control issues, we are m misnaming it, misidentifying it, and it's really a trust issue that starts in our heart.
SPEAKER_00And when we misname it, misidentify it, that's when the enemy loves to creep in and we're not calling it for what it truly is. And in fact, he then gains a foothold.
SPEAKER_02Yes. That's such that's such a good spiritual principle to like if I if I were going to say, take that spiritual principle and let's let's make it something that we can just say in a sentence is is when we misidentify or misname it, then we mistreat it. Yeah. So if I think I've got control issues.
SPEAKER_00So then it's mistreated.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. So I've a hundred percent misdiagnosed is the better way to say it. Yeah. So I've misdiagnosed my issue as control issues. Yeah. So I'm gonna treat control symptoms.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02But if I've if I understand I've got trust issues, then I can treat trust symptoms.
SPEAKER_00Which means we can go to the root of the problem, and that's what we need to deal with.
SPEAKER_02Which is why then, to use root language, we said trusting God uproots our desire to control the things that He gives us. And and there's so much that I would want us to see even in that discussion. But as I trust God, it's going to uproot this desire in me to control. Right? Like I have to trust, and if I trust, I can't really control.
SPEAKER_00Which isn't gonna be pretty. When you think about uprooting something that has really deep roots, you look at the uprooting of that, like how messy is that? Think about gardening. Like you're pulling something out of the ground and you're literally uprooting all these roots. You pull it out, it's just got mess and dirt and everything going everywhere. It's not gonna be a pretty process, it's not gonna be fun, it's gonna hurt.
SPEAKER_02And that's even with your planning and protection and all of that as a gardener. Think about this wind that's been coming through. We just saw the other day on the way to Fort Wayne a tree just this massive tree. Most times when you see it, they're like they're splintered because a piece of it got ripped off. This whole tree was ripped out of the ground. You could see all the roots, all across the road was a whole mess. It was a whole thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because it was being uprooted. So to your point, it is gonna be a little messy. It is gonna be a little challenging.
SPEAKER_00Uh but as he has to dig deep to pull that desire from and change that desire.
SPEAKER_02Because your your distrust in him or your trust in uh the world bread. I don't expect you to pull it up, but in Romans 12 it said, Don't get so accustomed to the culture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right? We got we got so accustomed over, you know, for many of us, decades.
SPEAKER_00I think that didn't it use the word comfortable? Like don't get comfortable in in the world.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00From the other translation that you read. The message.
SPEAKER_02And so those roots go down deep. And so to be uprooted, it's gonna be a little bit messy.
SPEAKER_00And uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02And uncomfortable, right? We used process and pain uh in the first week.
SPEAKER_00And so But we have to trust that God's doing something new, and we have to trust that He's going to keep us safe in that. He's going to protect our hearts. And part of protecting our hearts is uprooting the evil desires that we have.
SPEAKER_02For sure. But in this, I think our definition of safety changes.
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_02That doesn't make that doesn't mean comfortable, that doesn't mean easy.
SPEAKER_00That doesn't shifts from like we have a worldly perspective of what safety is, but he has a kingdom perspective of what safety is.
SPEAKER_02Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_00We are safe when we are with him.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes, and that is the only way that we're safe. Yes. And so we need to begin to understand that we and we can go through trials, we can go through challenges. You know, James says, Count it all joy, to your point or from earlier, count it all joy when you face trials of many kinds. Right? So that doesn't mean that, well, I'm safe, so why are there trials? God must not know what he's doing. No, God gave you a book that outlines you will face trials. So he knows exactly what he's doing. So he gave you a game plan to have a different perspective going through those trials. You can trust God because he already predicted it.
SPEAKER_00Well, he tells you, draw near to me.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05And I think be him being the creator of all this, knowing that like in in this fallen world that we created the sin on our behalf of choosing to go our own way, go our own route. And he knew, like, hey, in the midst of suffering is man, where my children are going to recognize that they they need me. Yeah, yeah. There's so much more to this life. And I think that's why James does say, Man, consider it joy when trials come your way, because it's an opportunity for you to lean on the one who can never leave you. Where and knowing too that we have this eternal hope that one day there is going to be no more suffering. Yeah. And we can have peace in that. And I think we can trust God when we think about the the person of Jesus being God, stepping down into this world to to be with us, but then also too him going through the suffering as well. Yeah. Like it wasn't like he just rode this ride and was like, hey, I'm better than you. Yeah, like, hey, I'm not embracing. No, he literally embraced the the most suffering that anyone has ever taken on before ever. And I think that's why we can say, like, when we look at the cross and we look at what he did for us, knowing like that he could have just, hey, I'm out. But Dennett, I think that just is a the trust factor that we can just rely on. Yeah, he's trustworthy. If he is willing to do that for me, like man, like no one else I've would, right, you know, or could. Like, it's not even if someone was willing. Like I'd like to say, man, I'd give my life for my daughters and my son. Like, I'd I'd do anything to protect them. But man, when those lashes start coming, like I'm out. You're gonna start negotiating well, yeah. How how can we all be saved here? Yeah, once again, and am I like, could I even withstand it?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05You know, it's like, whoa.
SPEAKER_00Which I think that that's such a good point because a lot of the time I don't think we focus on the weight of the cross. I don't think we focus on what he's truly done for us. I don't think we focus on the fact that we have we serve an empathetic God. He knows exactly what we're going through because he's experienced it tenfold. He's been there. He knows. And there are so many ways in which we can learn that he is trustworthy, but as we go through the trials and the hardship, we know that he's been there far worse than we're experiencing. And when we can shift that perspective to, wow, the weight of the cross, everything he went through, it does kind of help while we're in our trial and our hardship because it puts it it it flips the perspective, it flips the script back to a kingdom perspective where it's like, yeah, I'm going through this, but he's been through so much more. And he still loves me and I can still trust him.
SPEAKER_02And I think the thing that to me makes him trustworthy in all of this is is yeah, he's been through all of it. Right? But he's the only one who didn't deserve it.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02And in fact, God created us to not have to withstand this, but we as humans chose the path of sin.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02So because of that, God had to send his son. He could have done it another way, I'm sure, but he didn't. He chose to send his son to go to a cross that he didn't have to go to. Because he didn't earn a spot on that cross. All of us did.
SPEAKER_00We went we nailed him to that cross.
SPEAKER_02He went to keep us off the cross.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02So that because we messed up in the first place and he never did, we now can have life with him today on earth. We are set free from the penalty of our sin and the power of our sin and the place of our sin, which is hell, through the blood of Jesus. And he's trustworthy because he took all of those three things away.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Penalty, power, place, and he gave us a better penalty, which is no penalty at all, a better power, which is the power of the Holy Spirit, and a better place, which is eternity with him in heaven. And so if he did all of that, even though we chose sin, if he went to a place he didn't have to go, so that we never had to go, that's why he's trust trustworthy. Like so all of what you guys said, and so much of this goes back to man. This is all our fault.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think somebody put it a mentor, I think maybe it was Patty, our counselor, um, but helping me understand every time you control, every time you take the reins, every time that you want to do things your way and you sin in that. Just envision yourself nailing Jesus to the cross over and over and over again. And it's like, well, that's a picture. Like I have the nail in my hand and I'm choosing. I'm either gonna put him back up on that cross or I can put the nail down and I can be transformed into his image. And how many times do we continue to pick up those nails and just nail him to the cross over and over and over again?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like that's convicting.
SPEAKER_02For sure. I think understanding the cross, the weight of it to the best that we can in our finite minds. Right? It's it we serve an infinite God with finite minds, and so there is there is a level of things like we just can't fully comprehend, which praise God that he knows things and does things and is someone who we can't fully wrap our minds around. Praise God for that. But we have to get to a place where we focus on and try to remember and reflect on the cross and what that means for us, what he did for us, how he took our place. And so, uh for the sake of time, let's let's keep this train moving down the track. Uh this was the problem yesterday in service too. Right? Uh we got to a place where I'm like, I've got to get moving or else we're gonna still be here when we're recording the podcast. So we said, let's say that we're we're at this place where it's like, you know what? All right, I probably do have trust issues that manifest as control issues, right? Like, I probably do say there are there are things in my life, whether it's my kids and my bank account, my marriage, uh, my job, my friends at school, my position on a team, my circle of influence, uh, my way of coping, whatever it is. There are probably things that I am controlling because I don't trust God in that thing. Right? Uh if I can say, hey, you know what, Kyle, I want to live open-handed, then there are probably two questions that we would ask. Number one is how do I get there? And number two is how do I stay there? Right? Because we have to get to a place where we can pry our sweaty fist open. I know. But that's but they've been clinched for decades. So we've got to get to a place where we can, how do I get to where I can just open it? And then we'll talk about how do I stay there. But let's talk about how do we get there. Uh we said that the way that we're gonna do that is three things. Realize, remember, release. And I'll summarize this and then I'll let you guys kind of talk about different parts of that if you want to. Uh, but just from a general summary, we said we got to realize that I don't have control issues, I have trust issues. Like if I want to live with open hands, I have to call it for what it is. Yeah. If I want to treat it right, I have to diagnose it right. Uh and so we said, man, I've got to realize that there's some areas where I don't trust God. And so we gave people a place at the end of service to begin to kind of unpack that uh just in prayer with some worship music on. Um but how do I gotta realize it? Then I've got to remember what's the truth that I find in Scripture, right? Like, okay, so I don't trust God with my kids, I don't trust God with my work, with my job, with my company, with my friends at school, with my grades, with my future, with my retirement, with my mental health, um, with whatever it is. We've identified it. So now what does the Bible say about that, plus my lack of trust? Right? And then I just, if I want to have, this is so practical, uh, and maybe even too practical, so you guys can tell me that too. But it's like, if I want to have open hands with that thing that I've realized and I've remembered, then I just have to release. Like at some point, you just have to open your hands, release the death grip that you have on that person, that situation, that thing.
SPEAKER_00And understand it's not just a one-time release, it is going to be a daily practice.
SPEAKER_01For sure. For sure. That's what I thought about the card that you left out. Like stick it on your wall, on your fridge, something. I know. I did a terrible job telling people and just maybe if you don't feel anything out on it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What is it today? Yeah, that's what am I gonna struggle with today that I need help with releasing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's so good.
SPEAKER_00Such a good reminder.
SPEAKER_01Remind me of the show hoarders. Like they hold on to things like forever because they they're so afraid of losing. Like, what is it that you're afraid of losing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's so good.
SPEAKER_01From the inside, from a heart posture, not just things.
SPEAKER_00Such a good reflection question.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What are you afraid of losing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. If you were on an episode of spiritual hoarders, yeah. Right. Right. Like, think about that. Put yourself in an episode of it. Yeah. What are all the things that someone would come into your life and see you hoarding?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That should have been what I preached on. That's good. Crickets. Um so so just to get my hand from a fist to open, we're gonna do those three things. We're gonna realize, we're gonna remember, we're gonna release. But now to Amanda's point is we don't just do it once, right? Like the way I said it yesterday is this isn't like a one-time deal or no-deal with God where it's like, God, this is your chance. If you want it, my hand's open, but when I walk out of here today, they're gonna be fist again. Right? So the the the heart posture we would have is we would live a life to Romans 12, 1 and 2, that we're living a life as a sacrifice that's living and holy, or all the things that Brad said through the message. Um, but now we have to seek to stay there, which is what you were alluding to, Amanda. Uh we have to live a life that stays there. And we said, how do we do that? Well, we said two things, submission and surrender. How many of you guys like those words? Big fans of those words? Love it.
SPEAKER_00So fun to hear.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Submission. And when you guys try to take yourself back at this point 36 hours ago. Path.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, path.
SPEAKER_02Full circle joke for those of you who decided to tune in again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, go back and listen to last week if you didn't hear that way.
SPEAKER_02Um That's funny. So take yourself back 36 hours ago to Saturday night. And if I would have asked you, you know, how do you view submission and surrender? Would you have viewed those as as two similar words? Would you guys have viewed those as two different words? Like how would your mind have have have viewed those two words before we talked about them yesterday?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I probably would have put them hand in hand, but hearing you separate them and say that submission is a heart posture, and then surrender is how you go about accomplishing that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um I asked that question not to be like, wow, didn't you guys think it was really profound? I asked that because a week ago today, if I'm sitting there and I go back, when's a week ago before I started to really like prey on this and sort through this, is I would have thought submission and surrender are like saying six and a half dozen. They're they're two words that mean basically the same thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Certainly in my walk with Jesus, I would say, yeah, they're the same. I mean, pretty much the same thing.
SPEAKER_00I would think they're like a step, like you take two steps and it's like you have to submit first and then you surrender.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. How would you two over there on the other side of the room seem that? They're looking at each other. This is like marriage counseling when you ask a question and the spouses look at each other.
SPEAKER_01I guess submission would be like I guess if I would have thought about it before, would be like picking a place to go eat. Like well, that's not really where I want to go, but uh let's just go.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where surrender is I'm just not gonna go. Or I'm giving it up. Yeah. Completely like I'm just not gonna go eat. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's how I would have thought about the two, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Surrender is more of like a quitting. Right. Where submission is more of like, you've beat me into it. Yep.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05My brain goes somewhere a little different where they're kinda not everybody's surprised by that standing in your head. Where like when I think of like submission, I think of like submit, and I think of like maybe you're just doing it to do it. Like, for example, you didn't get your homework done. So you're like, oh man, let me copy your answers real quick so I can just like do it to make it look like I've turned it in. Yeah. But then surrender would be like, man, I just I didn't do it. Oh, that's cool. Sorry. Yeah. Like a place of humility almost. Yeah, like almost like you're trying to earn. Yeah. But then there's like almost the surrender piece is like there's like forgiveness almost on the other side.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I don't know. I asked that question about you guys' perspective because I think it's important to gather where could everybody who's listening to this come from? Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there's probably a hundred other responses for what that actually looks like.
SPEAKER_02For sure. Um and so then, Amanda, you kind of led us into this the the way that we talked about it yesterday was uh a way to see how different these two truly are submission is a posture, but surrender is the practice. Uh we said submission is about who is in charge or lordship. Surrender is the moment by moment decision to give God what we desired what we desired to hold on to. Right? Like, submission is a decision that we're gonna make to place ourselves under the lordship of Jesus Christ or under the lordship of God the Father, right? Like it's the same thing, but we're gonna place ourselves in this place.
SPEAKER_00Mm hmm. We choose it.
SPEAKER_02Yep. And now surrender is this moment by moment decision to live out the practice of saying, Hey, if I'm submitted, this is how I'm going to live out. Right? Like it's keeping ourselves there. It is um making the decision that says he is Lord. Like if I can say he's Lord in a moment, that's submission. But then I've got to live a life that proves that I believe that he's Lord. That is surrender.
SPEAKER_00That I'm surrendered to him.
SPEAKER_02Yep. I wanted to I wanted to end yesterday's message in this place uh because I think it's it's language we use around here, which is follower language. Right? We say that man, we are becoming all in followers of Jesus. That's our goal here at TLC. And that's our goal for those of you listening through the this Navigate podcast is that we would all be becoming, it's a process, all in followers of Jesus. And that isn't just something we made up. You can see that's what Jesus has called us to, and this is where we ended yesterday, and it shows us submission versus surrender. Luke chapter 9, verse 23. Then Jesus said to the crowd, If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross daily, and you must follow me. Okay, so he's saying, Listen, if you want to be my follower, so that's submitting under the Lordship of Jesus. So there's submission, now he says, You must give up your own way, take up your cross daily and follow me. So now you must surrender daily. And there's submission and there's surrender. And I what I would want us to see today as we get ready to wrap up this conversation, I'm gonna kick it back to you guys for any final thoughts or or anything beyond that. But like here's what here would be my my final thoughts based off of what we've said. My final thoughts would be if we can identify that we've got closed fist because we have trust issues that represent and controlling. If that's where we're at, then we should take a page out of the book that Jesus gave us that is not just saying, hey, here's how you handle these specific situations. What if we just said, here's what Jesus has called us to as people who are seeking to be all in followers? We submit ourselves under his lordship and then every stinking day, multiple times every stinking day, we make the decision to say, Man, I'm surrendering myself, I'm giving up my cross, I'm giving up my I'm giving up my way and taking up my cross, right, because I'm seeking to follow him. Right? I am a follower, that's submission, but now I want to follow him over and over and over. And so that's where I would say, man, if I've got heart issue, which is trust, the only if that's the diagnosis, the prescription then would be man, I'm gonna live submitted in a posture that says I'm gonna surrender through practice daily. What thoughts do any of you guys have as we get ready, close?
SPEAKER_05The since we're looking at the message this morning, I thought it'd be cool. So the different words that he used for pick up your cross daily, follow me, says, don't run from suffering, embrace it. Come on. So like just this vib like this imagery of Jesus picking up his cross and like knowing that he could have had like Lord, is there another way? He could have like been like, hey, you know what? I I'm not doing but he embraced the suffering. That's good. So don't run from it, but embrace it as these things play out and do it. I think the more that we embrace it, like you're just like, here we go. Like the more joy you have, it shifts that page. And then those those hands. Find joy in everything. Yeah, those hands can open up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but when we embrace it really is all about mindset too. It helps the heart so much when we look at something and it's like, ugh, I have to do XYZ. Or, oh, thanks God, I see this as another opportunity to grow closer to you. Yeah. Like literally, it's as simple as that. It's not easy, but it is as simple as that. Like, how often are we, ugh, I have to do this?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Versus, okay, I gotta do this because I want to follow you. Yeah. And I want to be made into your image.
SPEAKER_05So as we close, will you? What were the question that like our listeners can kind of chew on at that were on the card yesterday?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's great. Uh, so we gave everyone a card yesterday and it said, um, what is in my closed fist, right? Like basically we're asking people to identify what am I controlling in my closed fist? And then what would it just look like if I lived with an open hand in that area? Right? Like, I'm not asking you to make a commitment in that moment to say, I'm going to, even though it'd be great if we did. What I want you to do is identify, or the use to use the word we used in service would be realize, and then just say, What would it look like if I released it according to what I remember that scripture says about this area? Yeah. And then you're gonna have to make a choice at some point. But first we just have to realize it and envision what it means to release it. That's good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, I mean, I think to those of you who weren't there, uh, I would ask you to say, hey, why don't I put that into practice? Right? Take those two questions, that idea, and say, hey, how can I do that? And then to Zach's point, is maybe you were there yesterday, you filled out your card. Why don't you write those things down, leave a blank little note card on your fridge or on your bathroom mirror or on your dashboard uh or some other place that people keep things? I don't know where they did that, but some other place and be thinking through that daily, identify those things. What is it today? Yeah, what's it today? Yeah, yep, and what if I was on a hoarders, what what's all the things that spiritually and in my life, man, I'm keeping tabs on, I'm not willing to release.
SPEAKER_00It's a good journal prompt too. Go do some self-inventory and just sit with the Lord and ask him, you know, reveal the areas that I am clinched, yeah, clenched fisting.
SPEAKER_01That I have clinched fists. Or at the end of the day, what was it today that I did not release that I should have?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_01That feels more stress or more pain because you didn't release it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's more grief in my life.
SPEAKER_02Do it in the morning and at night and see how different those two things are. Right. If we're intentional about releasing the one in the morning and we get tonight and say, Well, I saw that that came out of nowhere. I got minds, so let's make it a practice. I mean, that yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yep, we need to do that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Anything else anybody wants to add? Going once. Going twice. No? Okay. All right. Uh, let me pray and then we'll we'll send you all out of here. Father, thank you for today. Thank you for this morning. God, we thank you for another day where we can live our lives seeking to um follow you, submitting ourselves under uh your lordship and your leadership, and trying to live our lives the way in the ways that you've called us to live, Father. And um Lord, we know that that's a challenge in this world. Um, and so, Father, we ask that you would equip us. Help us to surrender, help us to give up our own ways, help us to take up our cross and follow you, Father. But uh we know that that's challenging, so that we thank you that you've given us your Holy Spirit to help us navigate uh steps along the way, Lord, because as we seek to be a follower of you, we don't want to seek to be one foot in, one foot out. We want to be all in. But we know that's a process of becoming, Lord, and so we just ask that uh you walk alongside us in that process, that you would even go before us and we could follow you uh as we're submitted to you, Father, that we would just follow you through what you would have for us in this life. God, as we all begin to go through this practice of identifying, man, where do we have closed fist? Where do we have um hands that are clinging on to certain things and controlling? Father, we pray that you would expose the the trust issue behind the control symptom. Father, so that as we diagnose it accurately, Lord, that we can then begin to treat it in the way that your word would have us treat it. Father, and we know that that's hard and we know that's challenging, we know there's a lot of work that goes into that. Uh, but we thank you that you've graced us for it and that you will work alongside us and that you work in us. Uh Father, we thank you that you've given us community to be able to uh work some of these things out. And Father, we thank you that you've given us resources like this podcast and church and a million other things like other podcasts and books and all sorts of things uh to go alongside your word and your spirit in helping us to ultimately become all in followers of you. God, thank you for uh each and every listener, and thank you for the time that they've given to this, Lord. We're just so grateful, and we pray that this is uh a resource that is helpful in cultivating some discipleship principles inside us. So we love you, grateful for you. In Jesus' name. Everyone said.
SPEAKER_03Amen.
SPEAKER_02Amen. See you guys. Brad will see you almost literally never. The rest of us will see you next Monday. Brad's on vacation. I miss you guys.
SPEAKER_00Uh have a great week, guys.
SPEAKER_02See ya. We'll see you.