When you hear the word “cult,” what do you think of? Maybe it’s people drinking koolaid or building a commune back in the 70s. But high control groups exist now, they are everywhere, they are extremely damaging, and no one thinks they are signing up for a cult when they first get involved.
This week, I’m talking with my guest Dr. Quincee about:
Content warning: Religious trauma, cults, and high control group abuse.
About Quincee:
Dr. Quincee Gideon is a psychologist, educator, and trauma expert. She specializes in trauma recovery and post-traumatic growth in her clinical work and education. She is particularly interested in advocating for healthy boundaries, self-discovery and challenging our own inner shame. Over the years, she has developed a specialization in codependency, how trauma impacts the brain and body, cults, and religious trauma.
IG: @drquincee
Website: traumastery.com
Follow along @unforgettingpodcast on Instagram
When you hear the word “cult,” what do you think of? Maybe it’s people drinking koolaid or building a commune back in the 70s. But high control groups exist now, they are everywhere, they are extremely damaging, and no one thinks they are signing up for a cult when they first get involved.
This week, I’m talking with my guest Dr. Quincee about:
Content warning: Religious trauma, cults, and high control group abuse.
About Quincee:
Dr. Quincee Gideon is a psychologist, educator, and trauma expert. She specializes in trauma recovery and post-traumatic growth in her clinical work and education. She is particularly interested in advocating for healthy boundaries, self-discovery and challenging our own inner shame. Over the years, she has developed a specialization in codependency, how trauma impacts the brain and body, cults, and religious trauma.
IG: @drquincee
Website: traumastery.com
Follow along @unforgettingpodcast on Instagram
*This transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors*
Hannah:
When you hear the word “cult,” what do you think of? Maybe it’s people drinking koolaid or building a commune back in the 70s. But high control groups exist now, they are everywhere, they are extremely damaging, and no one thinks they are signing up for a cult when they first get involved.
This week, I’m talking with my guest Dr. Quincee about:
1. What a high control group is.
2. Our own personal experiences with religious trauma.
3. Red and green flags to watch out for when joining a group or community.
4. How people get sucked in to a cult and why they stay.
5. The phases of healing and deconstruction after being in a high control group, religion, or cult.
6. Tips for deconstructing on your own, and for supporting a loved one who you think might be involved in a cult or high control group.
But first, let me tell you a bit more about Quincee.
Dr. Quincee Gideon is a psychologist, educator, and trauma expert. She specializes in trauma recovery and post-traumatic growth in her clinical work and education. She is particularly interested in advocating for healthy boundaries, self-discovery and challenging our own inner shame. Over the years, she has developed a specialization in codependency, how trauma impacts the brain and body, cults, and religious trauma
There is a content warning: Religious trauma, cults, and high control group abuse. If hearing about these things isn't right for you today, please take care of yourself
Okay, here is my conversation with Dr. Quincee
Hannah: so can you give us a definition for what a high control group is?
Quincee: Sure. I think the definition, can change and be, fluid over time, but essentially at its most common. Core, that most people talk about is any sort of group that has a high demand, meaning they have high expectations for how you show up in your behavior, how you show up psychologically, how you show up mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and within those high demands.
They're also very controlling about everything about your life. So we call that milieu control. So it can be, controlling who you have access to, what you do with your free time, what you're allowed to think and feel, what you're allowed to dress like, what you're allowed to access as far as like pop culture, news, those sort of things.
when all of that gets really, really controlled and there's a high demand for how you live your life in a spiritual way, that is the making of a high control, high demand culty group.
Hannah: . And so,what's the difference between, a high control group, a cult, and maybe a really conservative or high control religion? Are they all kind of the same thing, or is there like an umbrella term for the other two?
Quincee: I think we just, we call it rose by different names, right?
a quote Shakespeare that I, what I'm most interested in when I'm talking about these groups is how can a person thrive in those groups? Are they able to have an authentic human experience without terrible mental health outcomes? If they're allowed to do that, then I separate them.
Into a separate kind of group, everything else, which can include high demand, high control, cult, conservative and rigid religious organizations. if a person cannot thrive and they have horrible mental health outcomes because of their participation in that group, then they all get grouped together for me because the, the ways that they do that.
End up being very similar, the, underlying currents within the group, the dynamics tend to be very similar. They just call it different names. They just call it something different. One has like a, you know, a religious God wants this sort of vibe to it, and maybe another group has a, you aren't going to have the life that you deserve or want in this self-help sort of way.
You won't be the yoga teacher that you want to be with. Out following these rules and these like restrictive guidelines. so they call it different things, but it ends up being the same thing
Hannah: Yeah, for sure. And so you mentioned not being able to thrive,not being well mentally. What are some specific green and red flags for joining a group, getting involved in a community? Because, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, you likely are interested in ways to learn more about yourselves.
And so you're probably going into spaces where we're talking about ways to do that. And so offering different tools to learn more about you. So what's the difference between. Experiencing some discomfort in this new level of discovery with myself, and I'm not able to thrive because of the strictness of this regimen or whatever it is.
Quincee: Okay. So there's a lot of different ways that you can answer this question, and I think that it is an ongoing question. So that's first and foremost is that a green flag, in being in any sort of group is that you have the permission to explore the impact that this group is having on you. At any
timeand 20 years into the group, if something takes a turn for the worst or a new leader steps in, or suddenly you realize that there's been abuse that's been going on, do you have the freedom to be able to acknowledge that something has gone on and you can leave and you can change how you participate in that group?
So the ability to constantly be in the question, does this group still work for me? Is this healthy? what are we really teaching the youth when we teach them X, Y, and Z? As long as a person can stay in that question, it's more than likely on the healthier side of a group. So let me just say that out loud that the question that you're asking right now is the question that we want people to be able to.
Ask themselves when they're in any sort of group participation. And that's anything that's aa, that's, your church down the street that you grew up in and you couldn't possibly like think about leaving. It's, high school football in Texas can get quite culty. it's anything, it's any sort of group that you're a part of.
Can you continue to show up and ask the question? is this group still the same one that I joined? Has something shifted that makes me feel uncomfortable? Am I able to talk about that out loud? Am I able to explore that with people and can I leave at any time? Those are all really great green flags.
Hannah: Yeah, as you're saying, that green flag, that makes a lot of sense to me, and I've been in situations myself where we were allowed to question. However, when I asked that question, it's put back onto why am I thinking that, you know, what? What am I bringing to this that's making me want to question that?
And so, There must also be some nuance in what happens after you question. You might feel, quote, allowed to question, but then the reason that you're having, the thoughts you're having or whatever are because of your own dysfunction. That's what's being told to you.
Quincee: Yeah. One of the things that I teach survivors that are coming out of cults, this is part of what I do, is that I teach them about all of the different logical fallacies that can happen. it's even built into the name of the group. We call the group a year of non-ag thinking. Uh, because there's so much magical thinking, right?
That is embedded in these groups. Number one is circular reasoning, where it's you start with an argument. The argument is immediately turned back around on you.
You are made to be the problem for even having the argument or having the question. No new information is entering in the conversation and so that just whips you back around to having more questions, but you are the problem for having a question. No new information enters the chat. You whip right back around to having more questions.
Circular reasoning. Nothing new is ever offered when questions come up. This is a wonderful way that is super effective in getting people confused and questioning themselves so thoroughly that they gaslight themselves and the group doesn't even have to do it for them.
They become the ultimate police, or the monitors of themselves.
And so the group doesn't actually have to do much work after that. If you can teach people that, that's what they're going to encounter, if they have questions, that they're just going to be told, like, in a religious view, why is the devil making you question us? have you lost contact with God?
What do you think God is trying to teach you? By bringing up this question, no answers actually happened in that space. You were just made to be the problem, right? And so it whips you back around to then having future questions, but now you're the problem, and now you know not to ask.
So that's one way that that can happen.
Another way that it can happen is through a scarecrow argument, which means that when you bring up questions, when you have concerns, they erect a scarecrow that essentially distracts you from the original question that you were asking and gets you in some other tango, right? And it's usually about your morality.
They've made you question yourself or they've brought up something that they find problematic. so you have a legitimate question and they'll say, yeah, but you're living a life of sin, so how can you even ask that question? You're not even able to ask that question. You're not worthy enough to ask that question.
That's a scare scarecrow argument, and they've erected it in order to distract you. And again, the question or the concern never gets addressed.
Hannah: Yeah, that, that sounds so familiar. in the church that I grew up in, it's so confusing it, and like you said, it all becomes internalized. And so many dysfunctional religious groups, high control religious groups, they don't even have to do anything anymore because it's my own mind that's keeping me in check.
Quincee: One of the green flags that I try to teach people to look out for is that the group is willing to take responsibility for harm caused and never ever talk about intention. A healthy group is when they don't say to you, well, my intention was, or the, outcome justifies the means, or you just have to get over this part and you might not understand it.
And I know it's causing harm, but you have to live with it because we have a higher mission or a goal. If a group can say, oh my God, it caused harm, we won't do it anymore. End of story. Not going to cause harm to people. At all. when that is the constant response that happens from a group. You can proceed.
I think it's a group that can tango with what the human experience is, which is complicated and nuanced and,not everyone's gonna fit into a box. But the conversation and the way that we relate to one another in our human experience, that's what groups are meant to be for.
so being able to take responsibility for harm. Cause that's a huge one. another one is being able to admit that they don't have all of the answers and not in a spiritual bypassing sort of way. So one of the ways that this can get confusing or the way that it can happen in some of the rigid religions, This is a very common evangelical Christian, idea, which is, lean, not.
On man's understanding, but lean
instead on God's, right? So essentially we as men, notice the gendered part here, are not going to understand all of the things that God is doing behind the scenes. And so therefore, your question is problematic cuz it means that you're not trusting God,
that is, Insufficient. That is no longer going to work. What is more appropriate is, I don't know, I struggle with it myself. I don't have a good answer for that, and anything that I answer in this moment to your question is also going to be full of my own bias. So I don't know. I think we can make some good guesses together, but I think you are as much a part of the leadership of this group as I am.
So let's figure that out together. there's a market difference, right?
Between,we don't know, and that's God's intention. And so you're just gonna have to live with not knowing and continue to follow the rules that kind of give you this indication that you should know what you're doing right.
I think a much better group response is a shoulder shrug. and I don't know, and I've had to live with that too, but I think we can try to make sense of it together. I think we can move forward, in a way that's a little bit more collaborative. We can pay attention to where harm is done and when good is done, and we'll, we'll go in the direction of the good.
Hannah: Yeah. I love that answer. Thank you. And so, Quincee, how did you get involved in this space? How did you get to the point where you're able to come on here and help educate people in high control groups?
Quincee: Well, I grew up in a very, high control, fundamental version of the Baptist Church, which falls within that Evangelical Christian. Tradition. And I think that it was both a way for my parents to offer me community. We moved around a lot and it was important that I made friends, that I had community.
And when you move around a lot, church is a really great way to kind of build that in. there's these, shared values that can come out. There's this assumption that most people in that place must be good. And have good intentions and want good things. And so there's a lot of, benefits, within those spaces.
But I think that, this is where mental health comes in, that although I do think that there was some benefit to having a community, the messages that I received about my goodness. No one is good. We're born sinful. We're in need of massive help along the way and salvation along the way, and you should question that all the time of whether you still deserve that same salvation or whether something that's going on in your life as an indication that you somehow lost it and you need to pray the prayer again.
You need to rededicate your life again. You need to spend more time reading the Bible every day because your humanness. Is the first thing that's going to separate you from God. That is a different message than God made you and wants a relationship with you and is here. Just along for the ride with you and your human experience.
There was a lot of ways in which I just felt I was an anxious kid anyway. I was,definitely wanting to do the right thing all of the time. and so I took those messages seriously and it had a really big impact, me. There was lots of ways in which, I grew up with a lot of purity culture.
I think that has like totally impacted an entire generation or two that we are not talking about enough. and it's still alive and well in so many of our conservative churches. and it's damaging. there, it's. Completely, fundamentally going against everything that we know about human sexuality and development.
so, I had a personal experience of kind of growing up in an environment where I learned that there was a couple, not a couple, there was a lot of rules to follow. And if you followed those, God would bless you. And then life happened. And I had followed all the damn rules and then life fell apart and it was traumatizing and I was in a horrible marriage and it was full of mistreatment and it was full of trauma, and it was the guy that the church and family and God had said I should marry.
So how do you contend with that? That was the beginning of the end for me, where I had to pay close attention to trusting that I actually really believe that if I followed the rules, that I would be somehow protected from harm, from trauma, from heartache, and that just wasn't true. It wasn't true because that's not how humans work and that's not how relationships work.
And there was so many layers that led to two emotionally immature people getting into a marriage that they shouldn't have been in. And it had its consequences. But I wasn't taught how to do that. One of the major. symptoms that comes out of religious trauma, and cult abuse is emotional immaturity.
You're just not given a space to learn how to deal with your emotions. You're taught that those are bad. Get rid of them. try not to feel them. And if you feel them, that's an indication that you've somehow failed spiritually. So just get better spiritually, and then the feelings will go away. Well, that's.
Not how it works, and that's not how it actually plays out for people. we got into this marriage and it was really terrible. I mean, really bad. And I had all these feelings that I didn't think I was allowed to feel because this is the man that God had given me, quote unquote. and this is the life that God had given me.
Hannah: And I better make it work. it was full of everything that I would never wish on anyone. My, my ex included, Yeah. I'm so sorry that that's part of your story and that you know, what that feels like. And your story sounds quite similar to mine in terms of the beginnings of that and,, you've touched on a few things that are really, really impactful and could talk about any of them for hours, I'm sure.
But we mentioned earlier the internalization of these things that happens and. When we are taught from childhood, when our brains are still developing, they're developing around this idea of I'm not good at my core and I can't trust myself. I can't trust my instincts.
I can't trust what feels good to me. You know, something that I was taught when I was younger is that. Satan is a demonn of light and he wants to trick us, and so sometimes something seems good, but it's actually not, and so it just totally distorts your ability to trust anything. And so it's a breeding ground for.
Outsourcing your decisions, outsourcing all of that because our souls are on the line. This isn't, you know, like, oh, maybe then I'll have a bad day. Or even I would have a bad marriage. It's my soul for all of eternity will be in torment. And it's interesting cuz looking back on my childhood, I actually remember.
Being really confused because I know I didn't wanna be in hell. Of course. And thinking about heaven didn't sound that, that good either. I kind of remember I. Conceptualizing heaven as like being a church. Maybe it would be like a church and you're singing hymns and all of that.
And I thought, oh my God, that would be so boring. what am I even supposed to do? But I don't wanna be burning for all of time either. So it's just, I remember feeling so I. Stuck and looking back, it's interesting how Protestantism evolved out of Catholicism and with Catholicism at least, they had someone that could go into the little confessional booth and say, this is what I did wrong.
And then the father who, priest or whatever, would say, okay, now do these things and you'll be absolved. What? I was a kid. There was no person saying, yes, Hannah, you are saved. It was always like, well, check your heart. Are you really?
And
Quincee: I prayed so many. Yeah, how do you know?
Hannah: How do I know? I mean, I've been baptized multiple times because there's always that doubt of, did I really mean it?
Did I mean it enough? Because we can't trust ourselves. So it's just such a torturous experience, like navigating the world on top of just figuring out how life works. Anyway,
Quincee: And figuring out how, there's also like an in group versus an outgroup kind of dynamic too, where there was like a whole group of people in your church or your denomination, or even like around the world that kind of saw things the way that you saw things that functioned in one way and then you went to school.
And you were like, Oh, so I have to court. This is how my church did dating, right? We followed the Josh Harris I kiss dating goodbye model, which was only courting and there was no physical contact whatsoever. Like until marriage, I'm telling you like. At the altar is when you kissed for the first time, there was no holding hands.
There was side hugs only. You could never be in the room with someone by yourself. You always had to be chaperoned like you were 12, ? and needed a chaperone at the pool. For safety. I mean, it was insane. but, and then you'd go to school and it'd be like all of these,you know, my like middle school girlfriends and how they were interested in, whomever and were, in that kind of social,Back and forth, trying to figure out where they fit in, who liked them, how they wanted to express themselves, what it meant to, date, quote unquote.
it was, that was also a confusing part of being in a high control group when other people in the same community did not have those same rules. but my church had a really good answer for that. most evangelical churches be in the world, but not of it, so I, it was my job to go and proselytize.
To tell people, evangelize, tell people the good news of Jesus. but I was also such an outsider by doing so, it was almost, it reinforced my outsiderness to them, which also made them unsafe for me to seek refuge in, to get answers for, to ask my own questions. Like, do your parents say this? does your pastor say this stuff?
What do your youth camps look like? Like I, there was no, my church, I created such an insider versus outsider dynamic that outsiders were unsafe in every single way. For me, and this is very common in high control groups, is that they will become, controlling about, that's that milieu control.
So controlling about who you have access and what you have access to, that there's really no getting out. In a way where you were just exposed to something and were like, actually I like that way better. That feels better to me. There's like all of these traps set up both. You're not supposed to have a relationship and you have a calling from God to evangelize for them, it just makes the whole thing unsafe. It's a really
interesting dynamic for young kids. I mean, we're talking like 8, 9, 11, 12, trying to figure out puberty, but you're trying
to save all of
your people,
Hannah: yes, puberty is the what our body is designed to go through. And this is, such an amazing tool of control to teach people that their natural inclinations, sexual desire, and sexual curiosity is such a natural part of being a human. And when you convince someone that's wrong, that that isn't how you're supposed to feel, and when you actually believe that, It's something you can't just turn off without having severe consequences to your overall sense of self.
Quincee: And so if you do turn that off, it's just such a way of control because it, it villainize this perfectly innocent part of us. And once we start questioning that, The game over.
Hannah: It's game over.
Quincee: Yeah.
Hannah: So talking about these sorts of groups, high control groups, whether it's a religion or not, does not sound like something someone would want to sign up for.
Right. So how do people get sucked in?
Quincee: This is where indoctrination I think comes in. indoctrination is the slow and methodical ways in which people get sucked into groups. So let me start at the beginning by just saying that there are some vulnerabilities that we know about, that can cause someone to be more easily sucked in.
But before I say any of those, I want everyone to hear me say that. Anyone can get sucked into a cult. Anyone? There is no, no single person that is so strong, quote unquote, that they would be able to avoid all of this. There are things that you can do. There are like constitutional ways in which you might go about the world that would protect you, but if a cult wants you, they're gonna work really hard for you.
Period. End of story. so. Just saying that out loud. I think there's a lot of rhetoric out there of like, how could they, like, how could someone join something like this? And I think that's so unhelpful and it's certainly not creating a safe environment for someone to tell you listener about their story.
So maybe just squash that. That's not helpful to
think about it that.
way. It's I think, more helpful for you to think, what would. Have gotten me into a group like that, what are my vulnerabilities that might have sucked me in? So a couple of things that make people vulnerable. they're usually well educated and smart.
That's a vulnerability. they are used to their brains going in spaces. And learning things that other people don't have access to. So just think about your college philosophy class that you set in, and just think about the things that were said that you were like bending your mind over. You were like, woo, this noodle has never been there before.
Hannah: I was a philosophy minor in college and was having to take notes on sentences just to keep the thought of a single paragraph together. You just get so it's so complex.
Quincee: so complex, it's so bendy. but because you have done that, because you have trained your mind to do that, I think therapists are one of the most vulnerable to high control groups because the way that we sit with people every day and we're having to get creative man, right?
Okay. What's your body saying? What's your, I know your memory is flawed. That's okay. The way in which we're having to try to make sense of really complicated experiences means that our minds have gone there before and that makes us vulnerable to someone coming in and also saying something kind of twisty and us being like, I've heard worse.
Hannah: Yeah.
Quincee: I've been more confused. This isn't that upsetting to me, it doesn't make me immediately sort of turn off and go somewhere else. So that's one thing. Intelligent, well-educated, and they've had access to things that have really challenged them intellectually. They're going to be more vulnerable to, a cult or a high control group.
The second thing that, really creates this is a passion or a desire to change the world. And sometimes a group is going to be more focused on changing the person for the better in order to change the world. This is how NXIVM worked, if we could teach people how to be more altruistic and more ethical, and violently, so then they would be better people out there in the world.
And that really pulled people in. It was sort of a self-help group, that turned really, really sour. on the religious end, we all want people to go to heaven. And if you have a vulnerability to feeling like all of these people are going to spend an eternity in hell and they don't know about it, that pulls at that altruistic part of you that wants good things for the world and wants the world to be changed in some way.
This happens a lot with medical doctors when they're looking around to them and they feel very, very frustrated with the ways in which the system has maybe oppressed their practice of medicine. So what do they do when they have enough of that? They go the naturopathic integrative medicine route,
which is not all bad, but it is a vulnerability to be in a space where you actually want your patients to be healed. And the medication that is available to you does not fully heal someone. You're gonna go on a path where you're looking for that healing. Again, none of this is wrong, but it's a vulnerability to you.
Saying yes to a group that does a lot of harm, definitely impacts your mental health, certainly impacts your relationships and what you have access to in the world, your life gets small instead of bigger in the ways that you wanted it. The third thing, That, really makes someone vulnerable to a group like this is that some big life change has happened and it doesn't actually have to register to that person as super upsetting, but it is a big change.
So sometimes someone might get a divorce, but it's a great thing for them to get out of that really terrible marriage. It's still a vulnerability. It's some sort of change or upset that has happened to their normal flow of life and usually within a couple weeks or months right after, that's when they're most vulnerable to getting sucked into a group like this.
Because, hey, I was in this controlling marriage for so long and now I can go to this yoga group. Okay, now I'm gonna sign up for yoga teacher training. Okay? now there's a huge demand on my time. And on my body, and I have to spend more and more and more money to be involved in this group, in this super high demand, high control group.
And that all happened without someone really knowing that it was happening because I. It was actually meeting some of their needs, and they had some sort of disruption that was going on in their life. So
death, uh, divorce,money problems that a lot of people will get sucked into groups like that when it's like, you don't actually need to pay attention to capitalism and you don't need a 401k.
Just come live on our commune and we take care of everything and we educate your kids. these things are vulnerabilities that get people to say yes, because it's meeting a need of theirs.
Hannah: Yeah. So what needs are often being met? Because like you said, there's the vulnerability of there's a big change or a level of intellect, so those are the vulnerabilities or this desire to make a change. But what are people getting out of being in a high control group? Is it feeling like they are.
Moving toward that. what are the best pros that they think they're getting, and then what are the cons? Like what are they losing out on in their life in being in a high control group?
Quincee: Well, the things that they're getting are going to be the same as the cons. So, but let me just kind of show you how that works out. So one of the things that they're gonna get is community, but they're also going to be restricted by the community that watches them and polices them a lot more, but they still feel connected.
They're not sitting in an apartment alone where with nowhere to go and no one to see. one of the things that they might get is purpose. Okay, great. That's great to have a purpose. But on the flip side of that, the con of that is that purpose is going to be very singularly focused on the group's mission and your mission in life.
Your needs in life really help to pale in comparison to what the group wants for you. maybe it's financial. Maybe it is, that you've had a really hard go of life and there is something really, helpful about thinking about living in larger group settings where you don't all have to take on the burden of raising kids.
and you don't all have to take on the burden of,you know, figuring out how we're gonna feed people that a shared sense of that responsibility is actually very relieving and financially necessary for a person. The con of that would be that the longer you stay, the more that your survival is dependent on other people and you participating in the group in a way that the group likes.
, which is gonna mean that if there's a way in which you might not wanna take care of someone's kids cuz you don't like something that's going on, or you don't like how they're treating your children or whatever that might be, maybe that's no longer what you wanna do with your time. and you wanna go out there and get a little bit more of training and a corporate job.
You can't do that. because it's now that is tied into, well, we did so much for you. How can you abandon us now? So you're stuck.
Hannah: That is so interesting. I've never had it pointed out to me that way, but that is so true. And so another aside, we were talking about high control groups, and it sounds like the way that we're talking about it, it's like a large group or large community. Does it have to be a large community? Can it be something that's maybe a dynamic between just a couple of people?
Quincee: Yeah, I mean if you think about, Charles Manson, he had just a few cronies, especially those that were willing to be violent for him, because of their own indoctrination. And so it doesn't have to be that big. And oftentimes groups like this will fluctuate. there is, When there's a really narcissistic leader and that leader is grandiose in their narcissism, then typically that group is going to need more and more recruits in order to feed the need of the leader.
But there's also a different kind of narcissism. it's can be within vulnerable or grandiose narcissism, but it's called communal narcissism. And. Those with communal narcissism. This isn't always true, but it can be true that they don't necessarily need a lot of people. They just need their needs met in a bigger and bigger way.
So fewer people could meet those needs and the demands could increase, and those people could step up to those demands and do a good enough job that it's not important for the group to keep growing and growing and growing. This happened, in Heaven's Gate. That, they spent quite a few years off the grid and they did not proselytize, especially after one of their leaders died of cancer, which they were supposedly able to cure and avoid.
and one of their leaders died of cancer and they kind of went dark. They, hid, in different places along the west coast, but they did that for a lot of years when previously they were having a lot of like hotel. Lobby meetings , where they would proselytize and bring people into the group because they really did believe that aliens were coming behind the ha bop comet and that this was like a matter of whether the world was gonna end here.
And they were trying to get more and more people to go with them in their ascent, space.
Hannah: Yeah, they can be small groups. And an even a more recent example, if you've seen stolen youth, about a high control group on a college campus here in the us, a very good school, right? That not anyone can get into this school. And it's a group of, I think, five or six students or
Quincee: Seven at
most. But
yeah, five
were who were living in the apartment.
Hannah: Yeah, very disturbing documentary, but if you're curious about how could this happen to someone, it was one of the documentaries that I found most insightful on seeing this, broken down in a way that you can understand how it could happen
Quincee: Mm-hmm. You also see, Felicia coming out of it at the end.
Um, so one of the like major followers. You can see how she's starting to deconstruct, what happened and what she believed and how up, how emotionally upsetting that is, which makes it even harder to, of course, abandon those beliefs. it's a really powerful documentary.
They did a
Hannah: yeah. Very powerful. Very, I think it created a lot of opportunities to empathize with the people going through it. And there were some disturbing scenes, but, yeah, a lot of hope at the end as well. So let's talk about that deconstruction phase.
What are the common phases of healing after leaving a cult?
what are things that people might be going through as they decide to leave?
Quincee: I teach this ad nauseum to, the folks that, that I help get out of these spaces. so I'll try not to be as verbose about it, but deconstruction is the thing that I believe all people need to be doing all of the time. We all collect beliefs about certain things over time, and it is worth our time to examine those.
And decide what just got lumped in there. That is painful, harmful, not consistent with the human experience. not what we actually believe and what is something that we can hold onto. So that is essentially what deconstruction is. It is, looking at a faith tradition, a group tradition, a group participation, a lived experience.
It's pulling apart all of the. Rituals,the, belief systems that were a part of it, the dynamics that were a part of it, and examining each of those parts to decide what impact that they have. Is that something that someone still believes in? Is that what they wanna participate in? And then how do they move forward from that?
So that's what deconstruction is at its core. There's a couple different theories out there, and there are theories around what happens from beginning to end. for instance, there is, deep acceptance. Then questions starting to add up. Then the doubts, uh, start to become louder than the questions.
then you go and try to find answers to those questions. Then you start breaking down,some of those belief systems. Then you have a rage, and regret moment, and then you come to some sort of acceptance, and that. That, process does not have to be linear. In fact, I've never heard it being linear.
It's typically like I've moved into, my doubts have really added up, and then that brought up more questions. Then I had to go back to the doubts adding up, and now I have more questions and the whole point of deconstruction is that you are having an emotional experience that you were not allowed to have before.
So it can be intense. It can be one of the times that it would be really helpful to have peer support or professional support. because if you were never allowed to be angry in your faith tradition or in your high control group and there was a lot of things to be angry about, now you're gonna land yourself in the deconstruction of having to look at what you participated in, having to look at what was done to you having to look at what you taught your children.
And what they're still very involved in. I mean, it is intense, and all of a sudden you're feeling a whole lot of anger, but you were never allowed to feel anger and you didn't, you don't know how to process that. That can be a very dysregulating time. So I. Each stage of deconstruction can really have its own mental health outcome.
Whether it's guilt, shame, anger, sadness, deep sadness. There can also be moments of more groundedness, cuz it feels good to be able to ask these questions. it all has its own kind of mental health. Thing that's playing out, that is left over from what you were not able to process before.
so it's an important process I don't think there's been a single person that's gone through deconstruction that regrets it, it is so relieving on the other end. There is so much freedom on the other end. But I think we have to contend with the fact that this is why these groups are dangerous, is that when leaving them, when you have to go through this much emotional pain to make sense of your experience, that should be all the validation that we need.
Hannah: That's something in these groups is not right and we've gotta change it. Right.Yeah, that's so true. And also I feel so much empathy and respect for the people that are able to step out of those, especially if you are someone that has because of your own pain, caused pain to other people. It makes a lot of sense to me why some people have devoted their entire lives to something and when a big upset happens, like with the Heavens gate and one of the leader dies, it's an obvious opportunity to stop and be like, wait a minute. And is this not right? But when you've devoted your entire life to something, it makes so much sense for some people to be like, no, I'm not even gonna look at that. It's too big. it's too hard. It would be too painful to accept on a subconscious level, most likely.
And so I just really admire the courage of people that are willing to step into that arena and find more freedom. But they have to get through to get to that side.
Quincee: Yes. And I think too, I'll just say to anyone that's listening that may be curious about deconstructing or asking more questions, but they're still in. And they're having a hard time knowing if they can leave. I will just say that one of the huge motivators for people to stay in these groups is knowing that they've caused harm and knowing that they will have to admit that to themselves, which is the most painful part.
because participation in these groups requires. That you cause harm in order to stay in the group. It requires it. You had no choice in that,. You couldn't also be a part of the group while not causing harm. This was a built in tenant of the group participation and so if that's the part that scares you, just know that every single person that has been a part of this group is going to have to contend with the harm.
That they caused in some way, and you might as well do that in a safer environment because there's no exceptions to that rule. because group participation did require that we all participate in harm. The closets that I built for queer people while I was in my
group is disgusting to me. I have such a hard time admitting the anti queer things that I did, the homophobic things that I did when I was in those spaces, but avoiding that is not going to actually rectify that situation.
I had to and still have to acknowledge, what harm I participated in, and knowing that I have every freedom to do something different now, but only because I'm not a part of the group.
Hannah: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. It's so important. So as you start deconstructing maybe on your own, or before you even start deconstructing, if you're starting to question these things, what are some things that, are important to maybe ask yourself or are normal to feel or think or worry about as you're entering in this?
Quincee: Well, it's normal to feel really anxious. It's normal to feel super guilty, but guilty for asking the questions. You're not quite to the point to where you're guilty for participation or whatever. You're just feeling really guilty and that it's very dangerous to start asking these questions. Now, most.
high control groups that have more of a, national stage. So like evangelical Christians. you're going to lose your community. You are going to lose a lot. but you probably aren't in physical danger in leaving. And that's something that we need to take for a win. And maybe just starts creating some space, have some other, activities that you can do instead of going to church seven days a week.
Like something, just anything that you might do that you might enjoy, that you've previously cut yourself off from. This can be as simple as reading a book that's not spiritual in nature and isn't approved by your denomination. it can just be that and a novel at that, right? can just be like fun reading versus, some sort of spiritual reading that is meant to make you a better person. it can just be taking back some of your time in a little bit more physical boundaries. It's a great place to start. Some people, are going to be in much more dangerous positions than that, and they're going to be followed and they're going to have like physical repercussions for, leaving the group if they're in that situation.
Stop talking to people about your doubts. Get quiet about it, and just start getting very clear on what you would need financially and safety wise to leave. Don't write any of that down. Leave it in your head. But there might be a money amount that you need in order to get an Uber. There might mean, Something that you need to do to make a little extra cash.
Um, mow it a few extra lawns in order to be able to buy a different phone that you can keep somewhere safe. I mean, this stuff can get dangerous in these sort of groups. So,if there's physical danger that is present. Stay tight. Make sure that you have a healthy and safe way to leave and know that there's organizations out there that will help you.
You just gotta find them in your area or within your faith denomination. There's groups out there that help people leave polygamy all the time and things like that, so I. They're out there. But you gotta have a plan. don't just leave nilly Willie because it can get dangerous. And then there's the other group that maybe they could create a little bit more space and take a little bit of time and just, start dissenting in some ways, but in small ways, like reading a novel versus a spiritual book.
Just start there.
Hannah: Yeah, those are great first steps. Thank you. So, what are ways to find either community support or peer support or on the other end of this actually, what should we do if someone that we care about, I. We are suspicious that they are in a high control group. What can we do to support that person?
Quincee: that's a big question that whole books are written about, so I'll do my best in how to help someone that's in, but let me, answer the first question, which is, how do you support yourself and get support? In the get social support in the midst of this, my, I have a group that this is all I do where it is both, a mix of education.
So I'm educating you on all this stuff I teach you about indoctrination and deconstruction. There's lots of tools that I teach you along the way of how to stay calm and regulate your nervous system and things like that. And it comes with a group support. So everyone that's in that group has been in a high control situation and they're there struggling just the same.
And that can be. Very validating. and people that join that group aren't always ready to be social. So this is one of those things like we always think that social support might be helpful. It is not a lot of the time for folks coming outta high control groups cuz they're overwhelmed and groups have been dangerous.
So to join another group, they don't quite quest or they don't quite trust themselves yet. So, Come to a place where you can educate yourself. It's contained. It's someone that you trust that maybe does this all the time, and knows like what you might be going through, but also feel the freedom to not jump into another group setting.
You don't have to socialize, you don't have to introduce yourself. Um, as soon as someone joins our group, we're like, for the people that wanna participate. Here's what you do for the people that don't like, change your name. If you want to. You don't have to join the Facebook group. you don't have to have the same email that another family account might check We're teaching people from the beginning how to be, a part of something where they can do this at their own pace and with their own needs in mind. So that's a great thing to do. There's also religious trauma and, cults, groups popping up everywhere that are led by licensed clinicians.
They're usually low cost, low fee. You can find a lot of those, listed. Email me, DM me, I'm happy to send you a list. But, reclamation, collective is a great place to go. They have people listed and groups listed, and you can find something that's very similar to what you need. So there's a lot of religious trauma and queer identity groups.
Right. there's a lot of purity culture groups out there that kinda help people walk through that. There's a lot of financial abuse. groups out there so you can actually find some that are specific to what someone needs as far as getting someone out. again, that is an entire podcast, a book, and Maybe even like a follow up, a first step.
is to just be human with them. You don't need to talk them out of their belief system. If you become argumentative all of the time, they're gonna stop spending time with you. you don't need to challenge everything that they are doing or thinking or feeling or participating. You just need to show up and be like, do you still drink Diet Coke?
I know you did for a lot of years. Can I get you one? Of those. Great. I'll be there in a minute. Oh, you're not allowed to anymore. Okay. Is there some other alternative? I still wanna see you and I'm gonna have a beverage. What is your choice? Right? You're just having human moments. I usually like to sprinkle in, like who they used to be.
What they used to like, but you know, not too heavy on that. you don't need to like set them down and be like, you used to like all of these books. So I brought 10 of them. Pick one. it's just a like, can I interest you in that? Can we do some of the things that we used to do together? okay, we can't, I still wanna see you.
What is allowable? What is, within the realms of what you can say yes to?
Hannah: That's really helpful. Thank you. Is there anything else that you'd like to say to someone listening?
That's on the edge of this, that this sounds familiar to them and maybe they even like left a group and never actually did the full deconstruction. But what's the message that you have for someone listening who is really feeling like they're in this
still?
Quincee: Yeah. To the person that is still working through this or deciding if they want to leave or step out, I would say Come join us. life on this side is better. It's less stressful. It can be full of faith and spirituality. Actually. It can mean, healthy participation in groups. It can mean, acknowledging your feelings and maybe not feeling so much shame over them.
Um, there is nothing wrong with your human experience, but you've been taught that's the case. And so coming to this. Side of things, I think is actually closer, to what is meant for us as humans.
And it is a much, it's a much more relieving way to live. It's a better, more free space to relate to other people, to feel, your passion to live within that passion.
yeah, it's better on this side of things.
Hannah: Yeah, I agree. And we want you here with us.
Quincee: yeah, please.
Hannah: Yeah. So how can we follow along with your work? And I'll of course, include in the show notes, the resources you've already mentioned, but where are you online and how do we follow along?
Quincee: I, spend most of my time on Instagram @drquincee, and that has two E's at the end. my parents threw a wrench in that one. or on TikTok, I'm on TikTok @drquincee. otherwise I am spending a whole lot of time with survivors, within the group that we talked about. and that has been the delight of my life.
and I'm also teaching a lot of therapists how to address. This, I think, there's a lot of people that are starting to talk about their religious trauma in a way. And then, therapists, because they don't know the dynamics of a culty group or a high control group, they kind of scratch their heads and be like, well, I'm trauma informed, but I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
and that's leaving an entire generation of survivors kind of out there having to educate their therapist on what they might need, which is not a good vibe, but, It doesn't feel great. So, uh, I teach therapists how to treat religious trauma and cult abuse because I think that we all deserve it as survivors.
Quincee: Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing. This conversation has been so validating and educational and just has felt so good. So thank you so much for being here to talk about all of this with
it's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me.