(EP:26) Justin Chapman: The love of Chukar and how to get into hunting this amazing bird!

In this episode I sit down with Chukar hunter Justin Chapman.  We talk about everything from getting his first bird dogs to finding chukar on the western landscape. If you are an upland guy and want to hunt chukar or some tips on how to find the birds, this might be the episode for you.  Thanks everyone for listening and hope you enjoy the show!

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Transcript

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Tyce 0:49

Hey folks, welcome to the bird dog podcast. My name is Tyce Erickson I'll be your host today. Uh, thanks for tuning in and joining us for this podcast. Um, I'm excited to shoot this podcast today. I have a good friend here, um, with us. His name is Justin Chapman and he loves bird dogs and bird hunting, uh, just like all of us. And so, um, I'm going to go ahead and have Justin just, uh, give us a little background About you, Justin, tell us a little bit about yourself and, uh, and we'll get started. Yeah, it's nice. Hey, I appreciate you having me on today, man. And, uh, I know we talked about this the last time we got out back in February, last day of the checker season in Idaho. And I've been looking forward to this since. But, uh, I think we were so tired. I was like, I don't know if I have the energy to shoot a podcast. So that was a, that was a lot of up and down day. Normally it's not that. Normally, it's a lot easier than that. It seems like maybe it's just I dropped my side by side up. But um, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, man, um originally from St. Louis and uh, Missouri, which uh, really if you all know there's not too many birds out there and uh, there's pheasant and quail and I actually never really grew up hunting them truly with a dog or anything. I go rabbit hunting or go deer hunting and you see a few birds here and there and One day I was out rabbit hunting, we got to a decent amount of quail and I was kind of like, well, this will be fun. And, but we walked and walked and walked to find them, just happened to be here and there. My dad was like, no, you can get a dog for that. And I was like, oh yeah, maybe one day. And a few years went by and I was finishing school and was hunting more and seeing a few there and a few there. I was like, well, let me try it out. And, uh, kind of did some research on some dogs. And, uh, came kind of fell, fell in love with the, uh, short hair pointers, German short pointers, and, uh, ended up just kind of going on the limb, my senior college. And, uh, I got that one, but two dogs and two different litters. And, um, and then the following that, uh, that year was that 2019. We, uh, well, I, I drove out to Kansas almost every weekend. I had three from worker school and a hundred, the West side of Kansas and spell in love and got tired of driving every weekend. It was like, well, I want to move, but. There was nowhere really I had in mind and I got a job offer to come out to Utah and I didn't even know where Chukar was at the time and I kind of came out here and Just kind of met with some people and went from there and fell in love with it even more. So I want to back, I want to backtrack a little bit. So did you grow up in a hunting family? Tell me a little bit about your, you know, growing up and, and, you know, and if that was part of your, you know, part of something your parents taught you, or did you just kind of take hunting up on your own time or? No, my dad, actually, he grew up in the country and, uh, all he did growing up was hunt fish and he kept that going even until this day, but never, he never really bird hunted. It's where him and I both are actually big bow hunters, but I don't think anybody knows. I actually, I go back to Missouri most of October and bow hunt. Yeah, just white tail. That's cool. Yeah. I grew up bow hunting too and love, love bow hunting. So are there, are there bobwhite quail in Missouri or is that, is that Are there many quail there then, or? Yeah, there's bobwhite quail and pheasant in Missouri. The hard part about Missouri is that it doesn't have that walk in hunting access like Kansas does. Mm hmm. And, uh, so that kind of makes it tough. A lot of the birds you find are on public land, and so you either get permission or you don't. On private or public land? Most of the birds are on private. Oh, okay. Sorry that wrong. But yeah, you, you can be right on, like, I go deer hunting all the time and you'll hear them, you'll hear, you'll hear a quail all morning and they'll just be a few hundred yards off in somebody's pasture and you're just like, go ask and they may give you permission, they may not, it just kind of depends. Yeah, seems like when I drove out to Pheasant Fest, um, just in South Dakota in Sioux Falls, seems like when she kind of start hitting South Dakota and heading out, you know, Now, uh, out towards the east, it just, a lot of it just starts becoming more and more, you know, more and more private out there. So, we're pretty It's a whole lot more private. Yeah, we're pretty fortunate in the west here, just growing, well, you know, me growing up here, you know, with Colorado and Idaho and Wyoming and just so much public ground, you're just, you're not used to that much private, you know, and I started driving out there and I'm looking at onyx maps and I'm just like, Like this is all, this looks like it should be public ground compared to what you see, you know, in Utah, but you go out there and it's, or start heading there and it's a lot of it's private, you know, so. Yeah. And a lot of that is just like the agriculture it's, it's, it's valued so high because they farm it, turn it over and they make, I guess they make so much on farming it rather than leasing it to the government. Allowing walk in thing. So were there many walk in access areas in Missouri or is it pretty limited? No, there's, there's, there's not even a program that I =know of. I mean, I haven't checked on that in two, three years, but when I left there in 2020, they didn't have any kind of walk in hunting. They had public ground and it's great for deer hunting. There's, you can go, you can go throw, you can throw an arrow in the woods and hit a deer or find one at least, but finding birds, it's a needle in a haystack. Sorry. You did, you said there, there's no walk in even for big game too. Is that what you said? No, no, there's no walk in period. It's just like they have public, public, public, uh, land set aside that you can hunt, but no, like landowner stuff where it's like walk in hunting allowed. Yeah. It's yeah. That's what kind of percentage is there public land in Missouri? Just very small. I wouldn't say it's tiny because there's, there's quite a few, there's quite like, there's quite a few places, like there's hundreds of places you can go hunt public, you know, hunt on public ground. Okay. Very few whole birds, very few whole birds. And I mean, the majority of the birds are in the northern. Northern quarter of the state, the border Iowa, that's where most of the birds are, and you can find a lot of them on the east side of the state off the Mississippi River too, which borders Illinois, but I mean, like I said, it's just, there's, you go hunt all day and you might go find, you know, you might go find a rooster, Or a covey, maybe two at max. And it's not like you're going and finding a covey of 15 birds to cover your six or seven birds and you shoot two. And if you even want to shoot two out of six or seven birds, but it's, it's just, it's slim pickets. So on, on this podcast in the past, I've asked clients, you know, sometimes in, you know, in a hunter's life, there's a time where you, you know, shot your first. Let's, since we're talking about birds and bird dogs in that realm, we won't talk about big game, but like, was there a first time that you shot a rooster pheasant or some Tycepe of bird growing up that you're like, it was just kind of seared into your memory, like, Whoa, like that was, that was amazing. And is there a story you have kind of. Tell us that you had something like that. Yeah, actually, yeah, actually, it's my first Chukar in Utah. Okay. All right. When I moved to Utah, um, kind of just researching, kind of seeing what was available and, uh, just kind of hit the ground, just eager, just climb whatever mountain that looked good. Didn't know what I was looking for. They just said they were out in the West desert and people told me they're on every, every mountain you see. So I took that and. Looked at some stuff that I thought looked good at the time and, uh, just went out and I went out maybe six or seven days in a row, did not see a bird, did not see a sign of bird. And that's kind of how that year went. The whole year went in Utah until the, uh, actual last day. I had some guys on my job site, um, who told me that bird hunted quite a bit. And so they invited me out and, uh, we hiked on this. It's almost like a little mountain out in West desert. And, uh, the tiny little hill, you know, we walked about 75 percent of it. Didn't see a bird saw sign. And, uh, always, we were coming down the mountain. I was kind of holding my head low and, uh, dog went on point behind me. After some stuff, we already walked over. I was like, well, I'll go check it out. They're like, yeah, go ahead. And, uh, Man, I get up there one, one bird gets up, and, uh, took my time. I was like, I gotta shoot it. Yeah. Because it was would be the first one I shot until and, uh, dropped him and, uh, dog picked him up at the time the dog wouldn't retrieve. Mm-Hmm. and I went and picked him up and, uh, it's engraved just the scenery. It's just, you know how it is out Westhead, it just picked as whatever direction you look in, it's just. Yeah. Do you feel like that just, I mean, you were already hooked on hunting, but that even hooked you a little more, do you feel like? Yeah, that's what hooked me on chukar hunting specifically, but outside of that, like, it was like, I love, I really like bird hunting, like quail hunting and pheasant back in Kansas, but I mean, and I was like, ah, it's great. I love doing it, but also I love bird or deer hunt too. But when I went out and climbed that mountain and shot that first shucker, I was like, Oh, this is great. Like deer hunting, deer hunting didn't compare to any more. So we, uh, little background on how just, and I met, uh, he has two really nice, uh, short hairs that he had, he had, like I say, hunted quite a bit, um, with them. And, uh, he reached out to us to see if we could help him out with some force fetch training. And so we were able to work with those dogs, do a little retrieval, uh, retrieval work with them. And that's how we met and just started talking, hunting and, and, uh, we went in and out hunting for our first time together, um, We ran up to Idaho, like Justin said earlier, I think it was, so the last day or pretty close, pretty close to last. I think it was the last day. It was either the last day or the last, second to last day. Yeah. So there was an area I'd, I'd been up and deer hunted up in that area. And I ran into some Chukar and Hans and even saw some sage grouse in there. And Wow. Let's run up there and see there was, there ended up being a little more snow than we had had planned for. We had to four wheel drive and chain up to get into there, but we ended up, it was, uh, it was some big, big hiking, but I think, what do we end up with? Five or six birds or. I mean, we should add, we should add more, but it was just, everybody was out of position whenever we did get it, get on birds. Yeah. It was just like, no, we saw plenty of birds. Yeah. Those are, I don't know how the birds compared. The ones you were shooting this season, but man, those ones seem, they were big birds. They were big. Those words were big. I will give you that one. They were pretty big. They were, I didn't want to actually this whole year not to cut you off. Good. No, you're, I would just say they're, they were tough. I mean, I just took, uh, you know, some low brass with me and it just, I had some come right up and I know I was hitting them and it just was not bringing them down. I, they were just big, tough birds, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like with that, though, this whole year, I didn't really hunt much in Utah. And, uh, I did a few times, but I shot quite a few birds here. I actually didn't really see any younger. I couldn't really distinguish any real younger birds or significantly smaller birds than what we shot that day out there. And so I mean, like the popular, I saw a lot of birds and I saw a lot of mature birds. I didn't see a lot of younger birds except for the time I was over Nevada, but that was early season too. Yeah. Interesting. I wonder if it's a, yeah, hopefully it wasn't a, hopefully it wasn't a hatch thing, you know, that they had a bad hatch or whatnot, but I do want to pick your brain a little down, you know, here a little further in the conversation about just populations and what you think. And how, how many years now have you been in Utah and been chasing Chukar? Three years now, going on four, three going on four now. So maybe three seasons to kind of judge what you're seeing on the landscape a little bit. Yeah, and I know a lot of guys would say three seasons, not that much, but three seasons and about three days a week. So I mean, you can do that. Yeah. You're not like a once a month or, I mean, you're, you're out there minimum once a week or multiple times a week and getting after it. So, I mean, you can, you can make up for a lot of time, you know, for hunting if you're, if you're getting out a few days a week, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely learned a lot quick. I guess, uh, so let's rewind to kind of go back here and then we'll jump in a little more there. So you have, um, we're, so Duke and Dior, Justin's two short hairs that he has, were those your first dogs or did you have dogs growing up or what did you have there? Yeah, those are my first, like, uh, you know, field dogs, the working dogs I've had. I mean, I had a, uh, lab. First dog I had was a lab. Well, not even first dog. Well, I guess when I was a baby, we had a, a cocker spaniel and, uh, she ended up getting hit by a car and then we went a few years with no dog and then we got a chocolate lab. And I had him until he was decent age. And then since then we got, we just got a Jack Russell that we would take out. Sometimes we'd go rabbit and squirrel hunting. Other than that, I was about it. Did you guys do a lot of squirrel hunting back there in Missouri? Yeah, we actually did. So when deer season be up in December, I want to say like December 31st or whatever it is, and then we had till February 15th to kill time, we would always just go squirrel hunting or rabbit hunting just because it's hard not to be in the woods when all you do is. Hunting fish and between December and March, there's really nothing. So it's like, Oh, go find something. Find something to fill the time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, is there much, have you, have you done much water fouling? I mean, I assume there's some water fouling in Missouri, right? I've never gotten a chance to go. I got buddies. I had a bunch of buddies in college who went and they shoot a ton of birds all the time. I just never gotten into it. It's never connected with it, but yeah, I mean, I see guys shoot birds here in Utah and whatnot, but just some of the stuff I see from my buddies in college who'd go down to Arkansas. I went to Mizzou, which is in central Missouri. They drive you straight south to Arkansas and whatnot, and they go kill a ton of birds and, uh, add guys that spreads out on fields and foot fields and. Seem like they did great, but I mean, pictures, pictures will make you think anything. Well, I'm sure, I'm sure that I'm sure they're doing good. I was just curious if you, you see, Hey, back on squirrels. What, what kind of squirrels are they out there? We have those same squirrels. I think you get a different name. Like some people call them like those red squirrels, like Fox squirrels is what I call them. Like, like the big squirrels with the orange, you see the orange is 10 on them. Yeah. They're not the same ones you see out here in the mountains, right? They're different. I think I've heard of the gray squirrel and they're smaller, aren't they, than what you guys usually. Yeah. The ones that see out in the mountains. Yeah. Yeah, I don't see any of those bigger fox squirrels out west once you pass 15 if anybody's familiar with Utah But I've got a few of those fox squirrels at my house here in Mill Creek. Yeah Yeah, I guess well, there's kind of some they're the ones that I've seen out here as we have seems like we have I don't know all my squirrels, but it seems like there's kind of a brush squirrel. I wonder if those are the ones you're yeah They're they're bigger, but they're kind of not scrubby. Oh brushy. Yeah dryer stuff and they are yeah Yeah They are bigger. And then you have like the, the, I think it's the gray squirrel that's up in the, you know, the pines and stuff like that up in the higher, higher elevations. Um, but I've only eaten squirrel one time. My boy shot one and I said, he's like, dad, can I shoot that gray squirrel? And I was like, well, if you eat it or you can shoot it, you know, and I will. Yeah, no, I don't eat 'em i's there's always people up in the country. My dad knew growing up want them Yeah. I'm like, I, I'm like, I'm not, I don't want it. I've cleaned a couple squirrels and they are the toughest little things. The ones that we actually, we, the ones that we shot, they actually, or the one we shot and we cooked it up. I was like, all right, you know your dad like, okay, we gotta teach your kid not to waste stuff, you know, if you're gonna take a life. Yeah. And so. Anyways, he, we shot it and there wasn't, you know, hardly any meat on it, but I was like, well, I hear squirrel actually tastes pretty good. And so we ended up just putting some butter and cut it up and grilled it. And I was actually surprised, man. It was kind of the one we had. I mean, I don't remember it being way tough, but it was a teeny, you know, there were small pieces of meat, but it kind of had, you know, granted it's a squirrel, but almost like a sweet nutTyce taste to it. It just, I don't, it tastes a little similar to rabbit, but. I think, but I haven't had it for a long time too, but it, I was actually surprised. So I was just, I was curious if you've. when you guys went out, if you ate much, but it sounds like you just went and did the harvesting and handed them off to friends. So, yeah, that's pretty much it. I've never really, I've never been curious about schools. Normally I am about a lot of things, but I never really crossed my mind about what they taste like. Well, if you got friends, friends, it'll take them. That's not a bad way to go to. No, not at all. I do that a lot with Chukar too. There's so many people who like Chukar, but you know, not so many people can go get them. Oh, oh yeah. There was a, you know, it was interesting. I had, um, a cousin, he reached out to me and he said, you know, I threw these, I think it was like under organic meat or something on, on our, you know, local KSL ads. And he had some, cause you can't sell game, right. In this game in the state of Utah. But you can give it away. Yeah. So he, he had harvested a couple of geese and he ended up just throwing them on there. Hey, free geese. If you want, you got to clean them, you know? And, uh, man, there was actually, he said, a handful of people called them up. I'd love, I'd love them or I'd love to try them out, you know? And, and, uh, I sh we shot a, An extra deer, we had a deer, um, we had filled the freezer and we had another tag, obviously, and shot one and I threw it on there. And man, there were so many people were like, you know, I'm going through hard times. I just don't have much money for food and, you know, and, uh, and meat's so expensive. And I had a handful of people that were wanting that whole deer, you know, and super grateful for it. So I think it's cool if you, you know, it's a win, win, right? You get to go out and hunt, work the dog and enjoy it. And there's people that, We'll take the meat and it is really good meat too. So yeah, I know, but yeah, no doubt You have a handful of people that'll give it away. You give it to usually yeah This world's that squirrels though, but like as far as deer meat, I mean we keep most of it We'll go still fill our tags. And then if anybody else Tycepically my dad my dad's also cool. He's in construction I'm not there anymore. But a lot of guys out there like deer meat. So they'll say man You know, if I give you money for tag, can you, you get one for me? Or this is snacks. My dad will buy tag and he'll have the deer process and they'll, they'll take the meat because a lot of the guys don't hunt, but they love the meat. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, white tail. I've only harvested one white tail, but a lot, you know, a lot of them are eating corn and stuff. So supposedly they're pretty dang good. Yeah. And I haven't had mule deer either, but I also keep hearing. They're not as good as white tail. So I haven't had to die the dire passion to try it Yeah, I think for mule deer. I don't mind mule deer. Um, some people think it's really gamey Um, I think what it comes down to is kind of where you harvest them Uh, I mean I I have it seems like if you harvest them up in the high country When in the you know during the archery hunt is when i've killed a lot of animals um, and they're eating that green grass up in the high country and the fresh browse it seems like they You They don't, you know, I think you are kind of what you eat a little bit. And so it seems like those ones taste better compared to, you know, maybe you're out in the, you know, West Desert and they're eating sagebrush and grass and dry, you know, just they seem to be more gamey if they're eating just more sagebrush and whatnot and juniper and stuff like that. Yeah, that makes sense. So, so, so Backtrack here in Missouri. You're like, this is after you had picked up Duke. Oh, tell us where, how you found Duke and Dior, where'd they come from, different breed, the breeders, how'd you track them down? Man, I can't, at the time, I really didn't even know a whole lot about dogs. Well, I did know about dog lineages and everything about kennel. That's totally fine. Yeah. Were they on the local ads or, I mean, was it kind of the Redfern grows? You saw something in the magazine? No, I was, I can't remember what site I was looking on and, uh, I can't remember the name of the kennel at this point. It kind of caught me off guard, but, um, I looked and kind of, What did I do? I looked at the guy, reached out to the guy, his name's Spence Pierre. He's out of Indiana. I don't know if he's still breeding dogs. I know another lady picked up, picked, picked up behind him and kind of kept going out of Michigan. But um, I reached out to him and asked him how many litters he had. He'd been doing it for a while. Told him to give me a few contacts, some people got some dogs from him, and I reached out to them. They kind of told me how the dogs were, and how they handled, and how they arranged, and what to expect, and uh, it was just, it all sounded great. So I was like, you know, I'll put a deposit down on a dog, and um, went ahead and just kind of, just kind of blindly went in. And, uh, went there, saw the, uh, both parents, he didn't, he hadn't even need them to work them. He's kind of showed me how they handled it. I was like, all right, I'll get a dog, not knowing better. And I just think it's just one of those luck of the draw things. It's like, well, you know, you get a good dog once and Maybe that'll be it but you've seen the or he's great. Yeah, and then uh duke I was like, oh I was like maybe get a second dog, too Just in case like just in case like my dad wants to go or not I'll have two dogs and every he wants to go you can take a dog or something like that And so I got a second dog. I'm not they were born two days apart So I sent him to uh, kentucky and the same day. I went to indiana to get the or and um I can't remember what the site was. I found him on I had tons of dogs and tons of kennels and At all their old Paperwork and champion this champion that you know, it all sounds good. But yeah So you just searched them out online basically just did a google search or something about short hairs Yes, so, you know some people listen to this podcast. They might not even have a gun dog yet You know in their lives and you know some people how much is a you know, what's a short hair cost? What what did you end up paying per dog on those guys? Just curious as a puppy Uh, uh deora was 500 Yeah, yours 500 and uh duke was 350 and uh duke was actually duke three duke duke was actually an accidental breeding Okay, and uh by two two two good dogs, but it was just an accidental breeding and I was like Well, i'll take a chance on it as I got a little extra money for a second dog And that's how I kind of got him anyway, because there's only 300 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah can't go wrong wrong with that I mean as if i'm stuck with a dog who's ever complained about having a dog Yeah. Well, that's one thing I've, and I've, people ask me very commonly. They say, Hey, You know, what, what do you recommend for, you know, if I want to go upland hunting and I'm just like, you know, the, the, the consistently in training, what we see is you can buy a short hair almost out of any lines. And it seems like they're going to hunt, you know, uh, they just, they've been bred for so long just to do that job. I think they, they just genetically just generally, I don't think I've seen one that never didn't, never did. Um, but they all seem like they, for the most part, I think we've washed. Two short hairs out of training that didn't have bird drive, you know, in 19 years of doing this. And so it's not, it's not, you know, with, with labs and some of these breeds, it's kind of, kind of the show line has gotten mixed in there. Yeah, there definitely are more variables, but if you're wanting a consistent breed that most likely. You know, even if you, like you say, you pay 300 bucks or 500 bucks or maybe 1200 bucks or 2000 bucks, those dogs are all, you know, going to point that the biggest variables. And I've mentioned this in an earlier podcast that I've talked about on picking dogs out with short hairs. I feel like is. Well, you can look at their size, right? Like, you know, but even the big ones or the small ones, you know, seem to haunt and point. But the biggest thing I see that I look for and tell people is just look for retreat, just natural retrieved abiliTyce, um, because they do vary on, you know, They, they like to hunt and point game, but the retrieve some are better retrieving than others naturally, right? So, yeah, if they naturally, naturally retrieve and even if you force fetch them it makes life that much easier because you're building on, you know, something natural. Um, and so that's probably the, the best way to go. Biggest tip I'd say if someone's picking out a short hair or any, any pointing breed in general, because pointing breeds in general, you know, again, they're strong suits that hunting and pointing and, you know, finding birds and retrieving is kind of, you know, is generally secondary and people don't necessarily always believe that. Breed for that. And so I think if, if you like your dog to retrieve it, it never hurts. I don't know if anybody doesn't want their dog to retrieve. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I know in some field trials, I mean, the horse back stuff, they'll go up and they'll shoot some shots. I've never done them, but for some reason they just, there's no retrieving involved with that. And I'm just, I just don't get it. I guess I'm like, if you're a hunter, it's nice to have your dog go down the hill and pick up your bird instead of walk clear down there, you know? So. Yeah. Half the time, if the dog doesn't retrieve it, I have a hard time. I'll spend forever looking for it. Find those. I have good eyes. But you know how hard it's to find those birds that drop 60, 70 yards? Oh yeah. Well, you're dealing with elevation and slope too. So you see it kind of arc, you know, fall and then, you know, obviously that lots of times you're, there's a covey of birds, so you may drop one. Yeah. And you kind of mark kind of the general direction. It's falling and then you swing to maybe, you know, shoot at another one, and then you're like, and then, you know, you might think, oh, it hit here. And the bird is, you know, 20, 30 yards from actually you shot it. That kind of even happened in Idaho. We're working up on that, that Covey on that bench. And I, I distinctly, I think we got two out of that and I saw the one fall and I thought it fell on this side of the hillside, but it was actually fell on the backside, you know, and, and it was deceiving out there. Yeah. It can be, can be super deceiving. Um, that, Yeah, maybe mention, well, I guess it's maybe it's kind of common sense, but I guess when you're chucker hunting, um, and if there's any tips you recommend, but you know, I I'd say just make sure you do kind of mark your birds, you know, when a Covey comes up, cause usually bang, bang, bang, and you're dropping them and you're, Oh crap, where was that at? And you may spend. An hour trying to find a bird Tycepe thing. My biggest thing is, yeah, no, seriously, mark your birds. And, uh, you know, and if you're fairly new to chucker hunting or if you have a dog that, that doesn't, that isn't capable of really marking birds or doesn't retrieve well. Starting off, I'd say just, you know, a covey may have 20 birds and shoot, just shoot one bird. That's all I think is just shoot one bird. You'll pick them up again. But when you shoot one bird and you start turning and shooting at two or three other birds, then you're like, you'll even question if you even hit the first bird, the first bird even go down. Cause half the time, man, I'll, I'll sit there and I'll, I started, uh, using a GoPro the last year because the first two years I was kind of like, It's like, man, I'm dropping these birds. I can't find them. So I started taking a GoPro and, uh, I'll go back and watch it. And I've been seeing, it's like, man, I shot that bird and Bert looked like he went down. And then he leveled out and went another 120 yards down. I'm like, Oh, I didn't even see that. Yeah. And just realize, realize that you do shoot a lot more, a lot more birds than what you find and you leave a lot of them out there. That's a good idea. Yeah, I really, I actually really liked that, you know, just take one bird and go get it and then. Like you were saying, a lot of times if, if people are new to trucker hunting, a lot of times those covies, they'll usually come down and then along the hillside. And when you break them up, then that's usually some of your best hunting anyway. So, I mean, yeah, knock one, you know, if you got one, you're pretty sure you hit it, you know, like say, keep an eye on it, maybe it coasts down into the neighboring draw and you get back on it and, and harvest the bird instead of just, you know, wound a bunch of them. So. And that's like, you know, we went out and I went out with another buddy. He's really a big hunter too. His name's Alan. Think bird, bird on Instagram. But, uh, him and I went to Idaho quite a bit this year and, uh, we'd go shoot, shoot birds and like, man, no, I hit that bird. This is that. And so, uh, we were just talking about it one day and I think we went back and forth maybe two or three times about who shot the bird and we went back and watched the GoPro and it's like, Oh, we both shot. A couple different birds and we're like, Oh, we didn't even realize it. We like, look, one covey got up and I think we shot him hot or Alan, another buddy and I, we shot like four birds and I think we only got, we left two, we left two out there and we're just like, man, we all thought we shot the same birds, but realistically it's like. We all shot four birds and just like, dang, yeah, that's good. It's yeah, you don't want to, it's, it's a bummer to let anything go to waste. So that's a good idea is just, yeah, maybe shoot one and then just make sure it goes down and if, and confirm it and pick it up, get it in the bag. Cause yeah, you may, you may swing for two or three and, uh, Come up with zero. Yeah. Yeah. No, seriously. I do that all the time, man. I'll shoot and then just take my eyes off and go shoot at two or two other birds. Or because I do, I do shoot a semi automatic, but, um, obviously the two other birds, like, man, I was like, Half the time you have pretty of time to shoot one bird. Yeah, you just rush and get excited when you see 20. Yeah, and that's one thing that's a good thought. I mean, even if you're just confirming that first bird is down um, and and and a lot of times if people haven't hunted chuckerel kind of a lot of time There's some late risers. So what will happen is you'll get the main covey, you know will erupt and You know, if, if you don't have a plug in your gun, which you don't need a plug in your gun, you're hunting up one game, you can unload five or six shots. I usually don't. If I'm shooting a same auto, I just don't deal with it. I just keep my plug in. I'm shooting three rounds, but, um, it's very easily to boom, boom, boom. And then all of a sudden you get, boom, boom, boom. A single or multiple singles come up really close, right? Yeah, no, that, that, that's oftentimes the case is that you'll shoot real fast and then you'll sit there and start reloading like, dang, I missed them. And there'll be one or two that get up literally at your feet. You could have hit 'em with a slingshot. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a thought is, you know, drop one. Okay. He's confirmed down and maybe, you know, you took one or two shots and then all of a sudden, oh, here's a late riser, and he's in your lap and you smash. Yeah. And you smash him. You know? So. But yeah, but even when you do shoot that bird, you see him drop dead, you think you'll get over there and he's, he's up and you'll see him running or you'll have the dog, the dog will be pointing and tracking and he'll bring back to you a bird that's completely alive, just broken wings. Yeah, they're, they're tough, they're tough birds. Yeah, but a lot of that is also, you know, poor shooting rush shots or is not presentable shots, shooting birds that are a little far. Hmm. What, uh, since we're kind of talking on the topic of shells and, um, what do you, what do you personally, is there anything special you like or found for shells shot size that you like to put through your gun at them? Yeah. Uh, early season, I'm trying to think early season I'll shoot. I got a bunch of like. I'll shoot just anything early season. They're all it's always federal premium But um, I think they're like seven and a half like almost target load shots real light Yeah, no birds the birds early season. They haven't been shot at you Tycepically get a little closer And that plumage isn't as much but uh late as you get towards, you know, mid november late november I have a religious show. I shoot religious and that's the federal uh upland load. It's like 1500 feet per second six shot One in three a's because it's just like at that point. It's like i'm i'm taking 40 40 50 yard shots And it's like I want to make sure I drop them. I don't want to be out there. Yeah looking for wound It's like any bird i've pretty much hit with that. It's like they drop for the most time. Yeah It's rare where you clip them and you see them kind of I think the guy a lot of people call him like kevin costner Or whatever they call it, but those birds drop most of the time and like I said, it's all just dependent on shooting If you can shoot They should drop. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good, I, I made that mistake last time around and I've hunted these birds my whole life, but I'll just grab some, that's, I usually prefer federal myself, just federal low brass. And I know there were some that. I hit and I was just blown away. They did not come down. So after that, I'm like, I think I'm gonna have to pick up some high brass. Yeah. Yeah. No, people ask me sometimes that that kind of showed him the load. I, she's like, man, that kind of, that's a lot for him. I'm like, again, it is to get close. It was like, but at the same time, it was like, they bless you, let you get within 10, 15 yards. Just let them get out of ways. Let them get out of ways and take your time. But you know, Chuck or Hunter doesn't take but a second for them to be here and gone. Absolutely. Yeah. That's, I think a little different. It seems with Chukar, if people come out West and want to hunt Chukar, I mean, when they come up, I mean, unless you catch them on a bench on flat ground, but if you're on a steep hillside, generally there's, you don't. You don't want to wait, you just start as soon as you beat up and get on that bird and get a good shot, you know, uh, take it because they're, they're going to be gone quick where, you know, pheasants is, you know, it seems like they're just a lot slower. It seems like if you're hunting, they just come up and if they're, if they come up at your feet, you know, sometimes you do got to wait a little bit. So they're, you know, you don't blow them up, but yeah, that they're, uh, yeah, yeah. So someone's, you know, um, so tell me, well, backtrack on, on, on the Chukar. So when you, when you were moving out West, were you like, had you, I assume you'd heard about Chukar maybe back East or was it until you got out here or what? I knew what and whatnot, just from watching like the little flush episodes and whatnot. But, um, originally I was wanting to be in Colorado, which was put me in like two and a half hours from the stuff I hunted in Kansas. And, uh, there were really no Chukar there. And, uh, I knew of them, but I was just kind of like, eh, not really thinking about it, then I got the offer to come out and I still wasn't thinking about it. I just knew there was quail and supposedly pheasant around. But, um, you know how the numbers are extremely low here. And if there are, you know, it's all private, literally all private, at least in the Northern part of the state or in central part. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, I just kind of just like, eventually you move out here and you find out what's available and what's. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, back in the day, um, you know, when I was a kid and before that, um, even a teenager, the pheasant hunting was, was pretty decent, but I think it's just the growth, the population has grown and you know, the, the And then predators, I don't know, I think there's, I think there's a cut, what is it? They call it like a thousand cuts or whatever. You know, it's not, I don't know if it's exactly one thing, but you know, our habitat just getting knocked down with building homes and predators and every skunks, raccoons attacking nests and birds of prey. I think the pheasants just, you can still find pheasants. Um, you know, and if people are really going to look for them in Utah, if you're not, um, Uh, public ground really where you got to get out is get out in the marsh along the edge of the lakes and they get in those cattails where they can get away from predators and, you know, and get away from people. And if you don't mind getting in that thick stuff, um, you know, there, there definitely can still be birds that I shot. I shoot a couple of limits last year. Um, it was on some of my private properTyce. So I did help, but I mean, I've hunted them on public out there in the marsh area and, um, they, they can be found, but they're definitely not as prevalent as they used to be back in the day. So I know we're talking about Chukar is, is Chukar. Your favorite up one bird or is it just, or would you say it's just, you know, Hey, I can hunt them. They're more readily available in Utah or, you know, do you have a specific or you're like, man, I love it all. Or what would you say there? No, uh, Chucker Chucker. There's no comparison. I mean, it's like everybody has their own favorite. I got a buddy who loves, he he'll go check around, but he loves going, you know, uh, like forest grassland, whether he, Blue or dusky. Yeah, yeah And I I did it i've done it a couple times and we went early season once and I got tore up by mosquitoes And that just i'll i'll never forget it and i'll probably never go back But um, I know that's that's also early season. I'm also i'm not a bug critic. I just a mosquito critic. I hate mosquitoes No, but uh, I just like what it is, man. It's like, once you like the climb is, it's probably the worst part, but also when you get the climbing early, cause I always start early morning while it's dark, get up to the top of the mountain to sit and have my breakfast, like married me a peanut butter and jelly. And then once, you know, sounds up pretty good, I'm kind of a go, but I mean, just the scenery of once you get out there and being able to see. As far as you can see literally if you've been out to west desert you could see 80 miles And it's just like it's hard to beat. Yeah, it's hard to beat and then when you get on a mountain And your dog's 300 yards off and you see him Picking up on scent and eventually goes on point and you get that, that, you know, you get that heart race, that anxieTyce feeling of like, I hope he's, is he going to hold him till I get there? And you know, whether it holds them or if the birds just get up on their own, they flush wild. It's just, you see it happen. It's just like, man, you don't get, I don't think there's any scenery or situation where you get to actually truly watch your dogs any better than what you can on the side of a mountain. No, I love, I love that description. Just almost put, put me there. Um, that's how I joke around with friends. I take them, you know, Chuck running. I'll say, Hey, there's one thing I can guarantee today is you're going to get a workout and you're going to see some beautiful scenery and have a great view. Oh, that's a guarantee. Every time I always tell people, it's like, man, it's going to be great. I mean, I've seen birds here before and what I'm like, just make sure, you know, Stretch a little bit and maybe bring you some snacks because it ain't going to be, we ain't going up and coming right back down. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Tell, tell, so if someone's like, man, I want to get into chucker hunting, okay, we've talked about shells. Do you generally pack your semi auto or what do you, what do you usually like for a shotgun? Yeah, I pack my semi auto. And uh, reason, reason, reason being is that starting off on that was never really a great shot, but I've come to get a lot better and I think these next, Probably going to the next season, I'll probably get an over, under two. And, uh, just that way, I actually, you know, you fit that there's an upland image I'd say, and it's the guy staying on the mountain with an over and under, but, um, if I, I'd say if you're new to it and whatnot, the best thing you can go do is go get you a semi automatic and, uh, that's what, that's just what I would do and go get. Whatever you're comfortable with, whether it be a 20 or 12 gauge, 12 gauges, you can't shoot. And that's what I have. I do have a four 10. I haven't gotten it out a whole lot, but I'm first going to start it with. And, uh, yeah, I would, that's what I would just go get me a semi automatic 12. Something you can it fits you and you're comfortable with brain doesn't matter. Just make sure you practice a little bit Just start slinging shells. Yeah. No, I agree with that. I I think that's uh, Like you say just get get start getting some numbers under your belt find the birds and you can back You know like back off a little bit and get the semi auto if you want or the or the over under if you want And yeah, you know, okay. We've gotten some birds now. It can be now I can just take a couple shots It's okay if I don't get You know, all of them, you know, and maybe get one here or there and, and, uh, yeah. Yeah. And go that route. One thing, you know, I would probably say too, is be careful on taking your nicest gun, Chuck or hunting, because you probably know as good as me. I had a spill when we were up there in Idaho and I was trying to protect my gun. Cause I had a nice little, it wasn't a high expensive gun. It was five, 600 over under, but it was, It was pretty new to me on that second hunt that we did kind of just trying that area out. And I slipped and hit my elbow good trying to protect my gun, but I didn't want to beat it up. And those, you know, you may, when you're hyping, hiking up those slopes, you may use your gun as a hiking stick. who you may, you know, drop in the rocks. And if you have a really nice gun, you may be saying some choice words to yourself or out loud or whatever and cringing. So it might not hurt to, if you are hunting a lot of chuck or take a gun, if it gets a scratch or ding, you're, you're okay with it, you know. Yeah, yeah, no, I wouldn't go buy a brand new nice shotgun and go to the trucker hunting. There's no way I mean i've got i've got it. I've got a nice finale and uh, it doesn't look nice It's got every time i'm going out It's I use it as a walking stick half the time Especially the days where I don't see many birds and i'm using it to help me pull myself up the mountain and Send it down to climb over rocks I mean like I said, though, it's a tool Have you had any, have you had any good spill, uh, spills on the mountain when you've been hiking? I went out with a buddy in West Desert, uh, it was that 20, end of 2021 season. And, uh, I wasn't even on the mountain. I just got out of the truck after a long day of walking and, uh, there was like a little, Ditch. I was trying to cross the ditch and I tripped going down and just fell in the bottom of the ditch and, uh, just put my gun straight out in front of me to break my fall. And, uh, they're like, man, you're right. And they asked me if I got it. Like, man, things all scratched up. I'm like, yeah, it's just what it's going to be. But yeah, that's my pride. Yeah. That's about it. I'm embarrassed. You guys saw me fall, but, um, it's going to be spills and everything, especially the more time you spend out there. It's, I mean, it's just bound to happen. Yeah. It's bound. As long as you don't fall off the side of the cliff, you'll be all right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There was a, um, it was funny one time we were on a side note, we were going grouse hunting, me and my brothers, and we were up by strawberry and we were going for a rough grouse early in the morning, you know, sun just coming up and there's this little Creek and, and we all are, Crossing it and my brother just jumps and I don't, he, and his foot just slipped right on this rock, just right on his back, right into the river. We were just, we were all out, you know, after we knew he was okay, we were all cracking up and it was just, you know, it's just being outdoors, you know, you slip and things get banged up and it's just, you know, it's just part of like, we're like, we were trying to get into that Chuck area and. You know, my truck at this point, it's, it gets, has some stripes on it from, you know, going through the brush and whatnot. So I guess that's why I work hard is have these fun tools to be able to use them to get out in the field, you know? So, um, what do you, what do you Tycepically recommend people pack for food or drinks or water when they're up chucker hunting, if they've never done it? Um, man, it just, I guess it just depends on how long you're going to be out there or plan to be out there. Some, you know, some days turn in half day turn into you're out there eight, nine hours, but I try to Tycepically bring, you know, a couple of waters for sure. Um, a sweet snack, whether it be starburst or some kind of candy, um, and, you know, a nice sandwich and then the juice, you know, just, I don't know. I wouldn't go out there with this water and granola bar. I want to have something that's going to give me a boost and something that's going to hold me over. Cause Sometimes you get out there and you're just, I mean, I've gotten out there and gotten turned around before and where I started when it was dark. And by the time I got back to the truck, it was dark. And so it's like, and I've also under packed. So I'm a firm believer in having more than what you need. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good idea. I'd say recommend to people, you know, anytime I generally spend time in the outdoors, take a lighter in case you get stuck out, especially if it's late in the season, you got to build a fire, you get turned around. Oh yeah. Oh, well, I'm thinking for me, but yeah, no, I pack. I mean, I've got so many things like in our vests. I've got, you know, I've got safe first aid kit. I've got sutures that stitch up a dog. Thankfully haven't had to do that. Uh, Tycelenol, just, you know, basic necessities always have a fire blade. I say blade, but a knife, and then I always carry my pistol just in the sense that you never know what kind of situation I'm getting into. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never heard. Yeah. Never hurts. So have a backup firearm. Do you, is there a certain, uh, do you have any, a certain vest or brand that you like, you know, recommend to people, um, is your high, do you use a backpack or what do you prefer? I've got a vest and, uh, I'll probably be switching from it this year for no real reason specifically, other than I just, I have an Orvis right now. And that's what I had when I was just out in Kansas and whatnot, this flat ground and, uh, didn't really, wasn't really familiar with first light or anything, but, um, or not first light, but, uh, final rise, yeah, final rise. And I've seen quite a few of those vests. Like finally in person and I actually really do like them if they're well made So if I think if I do switch because I got a few buddies who want to start getting hunting So I might give them my vest and uh Use it as reason to go by another dress probably do final final rise matt matt the owner. He's a stud too I I actually need to get him on the podcast around him to pheasant fest and just kind of Connected here and there through the bird dog world, but I need to get him on there and I was I was looking at their You Their upland vest on, you know, when I was out at pheasant fest and they're really qualiTyce made, he's a good guy, you know, a good business to support, you know, them and their, you know, big, big bird hunters and, and, uh, you know, and, and live, live their passions, you know, and, and make a cool vest and made in the U S. And so, yeah, I think I'm going to, Uh, I'm going to try to get Matt on here too and pick up one of those vests in the past. I usually just will throw on, you know, I have like a Cabela's kind of vest, um, but I usually will take a backpack with me of some sort, just cause I'm kind of like you. I don't, I hate being outdoors and underprepared, you know? So it's nice to have a vest or a, or a down coat or something. And lots of times, like in the morning, you first get out there, if you're hunting late season, it can be, you know, pretty cold too. And so you kind of maybe start off with the, you know, a down, that's what I like is down cause it's light and it stays warm, you know? Um, so I usually start off with something down and then it doesn't take much before you're into a t shirt, you know, even in the winter time, hiking up the mountains. As long as the sun is out, man. What's that? As long as the sun is out. Yeah. I mean, there's days where it's like, man, like you go out in West desert, it'll be cold. It'll be like seven or eight degrees in the morning. It's still dark. And then you'll go, you'll go hike up and then sun's out. And it's, it says 20 degrees. It says 25 degrees. Well, you feel the sun. It feels like it's 55 and you're sweating, almost can't cool down. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Do you, so, um, so just for our audience, if someone's like, man, I, you know, I want to chuck her hunt because there's no pheasants and they, you know, I think a lot of people would like to get their dogs out more, but they just don't, they're like, I don't know what to hunt, you know? And so obviously I would say in Utah, what I usually tell people there's, we have tons of public ground for chucker. And, and forest grouse, you know, if you want to get your dog out and get to work, you know, work your dog, there's plenty of birds and there's pretty of areas to do it. You just got to kind of put the boots on the ground. If someone's, you know, kind of newer to chukar hunting and they want to go out and, you know, find a chukar, what tips would you give them? What kind of stuff to look for? Is there anything? You know, that you would recommend in that sense? Yeah. Um, as far as like, I know I came out here and then didn't really know what to look for other than what I saw on, you know, the YouTube videos. Mm-Hmm. And since then there's been a lot of great videos to watch. Starting off, if I was trying to find stuff, I'd go watch folks like Eric Forster on YouTube and I can't think of the other folks, but just try to go see what they're hunting and, uh. That's good. That's good. I get on Google. Yeah, I'd go see. I just go watch videos. And I mean, those guys, I mean, you're not going to find out where they're hunting. Maybe you can. And if you can't keep it to yourself, but, uh, I would just look at the scene, like the scenery and like what it looks like. Are the hills steep? Are they rolling? Are they in sagebrush? Are they in key grass? So I mean, when I get on, I, now that I've been out here in Utah, Utah is real steep in comparison to, you know, how it is in Idaho, Nevada, but, um, I'll go look for areas that burn. So I know Utah has had quite a few wildfires and, uh, I'll go find those different ranges out West and, uh, go see where fires historically burned. And then if it's been three or four years since they have, Tycepically after a fire, everything comes back healthy and green. And, uh, if it was choked out with the, uh, some people call them juniper trees. I can't think of what the actual term is, but junipers, I don't know. Yeah. Everybody, they get to change or use interchangeably. So I really don't know, but Tycepically it's one of those, those areas, those areas have always held birds. I mean, I've never gone to an area where it burned and you'll know it burned when you look at on Google earth, cause you'll see little brownish black lines. You won't and those are just small trees that burned up And they'll get a look and then depend on the time of year You can go look and see maybe like real gold or if you look this time of year spring It'll be real real green as everything is but as you get closer to the season A lot of things will look real dark brown on google earth or on x if you want to find those gold passes Gold patches with some elevation and rocks and uh And that's what I just start doing like that and then when you get out there Try to see if it looks like what you saw on youtube or wherever you looked and uh, If it looks good, it looks close to that go do it and uh, The biggest thing though is getting out there early season is that it could look great But if it's September or early, even early October and you haven't had rain, uh, I would try to find out where the water is. And, and even if around the water doesn't look great, the birds are going to be around the water every time, unless it rained, but. You know, it doesn't rain in September, hardly ever. So I would just for water. That's the biggest thing early season is water. And once you get that first, no, whether it be late October, November, then you can kind of like the birds kind of spread out and make it a little easier. So when you say you're looking for water, you, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Are you looking for creeks? You're looking for guzzlers, anything, or what do you usually see the most, you know, in Utah desert? Yeah here in utah man, I don't once you get out west desert if anybody's ever been here It's there. I don't I don't really know of any running water out there Yeah, there are guzzlers. But uh, the thing about utah is there are no guzzler maps It's kind of like who you know, and if they tell you And a lot of guys are tight lipped and there's a lot of guys that if they know you well enough They'll tell you kind of put you in a direction. I have no problem telling folks Hey, there's guzzlers on this range on west side or east side because I also don't hunt in September or early October, but, um, yeah. And Idaho, Idaho, I'm looking for water. And when I do go to Idaho, I'll put it out there. I hunt, I hunt snake and that's, I'm not really sure that if anybody's willing to make the drive to Idaho and you go hunt the snake river, which is huge on the West side of the snake or the West side of Idaho. You'll find birds. I, that's all I can tell you is if you just go walk up the Hill, you'll go find birds. And, uh, but it's not that easy down here in Utah, as you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think, like you say, you hear about Hell's Canyon and all, you know, chucker hunting all there. I think that's, I think anyone that's hunted up on pretty much knows, but there's, like you say, there's miles and miles and, and there's water there. And yeah, I like to say, it's not too bad of a drive really to get to a lot of areas up in Idaho from, from Utah or, you know, there's people back East that, Hey, let's go come drive out and come out for a week and do some hunting, you know, and see the West and experience it. So, yeah, and to those who are willing to make the drive, I mean, you can just keep driving through Utah. There's no birds here. Yeah, but um, no But uh, I would if you're gonna if you're gonna put you know, eight ten hours on the road I would I would drive clear to nevada or idaho and just for the sense that if you want to go shoot Quite a few birds and you don't want to be looking spending days looking for them Um, that's where I would go. I think the population is over there a lot better I mean and some of the stuff in northern utah can be really good in pockets But I mean, it took me, it took me a year to really figure it out here in Utah, but I went to Idaho for a week. The first, when I first moved to Utah, I went to Idaho for a weekend and, uh, blackbirds just kind of just guessing. And I didn't even know anything. Justin, you there? Yeah. I'm there. Oh, you got it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, I, I agree with you. Um, It seems like, and I don't know what it is, but Idaho seems to have, um, a lot better, uh, grass, you know, the undergrowth seems to be, to grow better. And even if, I mean, when I'm up there big game hunting, I'll see. You know, and that's half the time and that's, you know, kind of a plug. And I'm sure people do this and you're out big game hunting. Oh, there's always a bunch of four, four scrouse here. You know, make a mental note or mark it on your onyx is even best. And then, you know, go back and hunt it with the dog later. But it does seem like if you're wanting to try, it just seems like the upland population in Idaho is better. I haven't done much. In Nevada. Um, so that's good to hear. You know, obviously there's, you know, Nevada is really known for Chukar. Um, And so, you know, I, I would, I'm, I agree with you, you can find chukar in Utah and those that are people that live here, uh, you know, there's, there are chukar, you, you know, and, and I think the good thing about, you know, if you want to get into chukar hunting, like you say, watch those videos, I think that's a really good tip just to get a feel of, of habitat and then just start hiking and even just take the dog out and get a workout and just work, like you were saying earlier, worst case scenario, uh, You get a workout, you know, and maybe you find some deer sheds or, you know, find some fossils or something like that, you know? Yeah. I mean, like you said, you'll, you'll get, you'll get some pretty views at the very least. Yeah. Yeah. You get a view and workout. And then while soon you find some birds and you get a handful of those spots and, you know, you can go and hunt them over the years. And, and usually they're usually I want you to find birds. I mean, not that they're always there, but there's usually some. Tycepe of a population there, you know, so are there going to be another they'll be around. I think the big. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just trying to find a new spot is what not just communicating just being Finding people that you know and you trust and say man, I'm thinking about hunting here What do you think and just getting opinions on it? I mean like cuz guys would ask me all the time to take him out I'm like you want to go you want to go chucker hunting or do you want to learn how to check her like oh I just want to shoot a chucker. I'm like, all right, we can go do that And I'll go take them to somewhere that I know has birds But I mean if you really want to figure it out for yourself, I would just Mark a few places and send the pins to somebody, you know, who's who can hunt just ask them what they think Yeah, and uh, that's what i've done. I've had buddies like hey, man I want to go shoot. I want to go chuck hunt and I guess I met a buddy this year playing basketball actually And uh, he's he duck hunted his dad or his uncle owns a outfitter back in, uh, kentucky And I took him out didn't think he he's like, oh, I want to go You know everybody is they say they want to go and then they go and they're like, oh no I don't want to do it Yeah. And I took him out to the most obvious spot in Utah CounTyce where there there's birds. I know we went up there early season and, uh, first flush wild didn't get a point. He saw him though. That was the important part. He saw him and he's like, Oh, what do bad? I'll try it again. Took him to another spot and as I took him I kept taking him a little better spot a little better Yeah, you can't you can't take him right to the honey hole and spoil him, right? Oh, no, like oh, yeah, this is trucker honey. You gotta be like, let's see how bad this this guy really wants Yeah, let's make him work for it a little bit, right? Yeah, maybe that's not fair, but I feel like that's how it started for everybody. Nobody just went out. Nobody Just went out dude. I think that's totally fair Cause I mean, I mean, it's like taking a kid out and he shoots a 200 inch buck his first year. I mean, they're ruined or they think there's a 200 inch buck around every tree. You know, it's like, you got to start them off. Hey, we got to work hard, you know, and how much better is the reward when you work hard and you get one bird and you're like, Whoa, this thing's really special, you know, compared to you go out and you shoot a limit and you walk for half hour. You know? No, yeah, no, seriously. So he was doing all that. Next thing I know, I got a little busy at work. He's calling me. He's like, Hey man, we go hunt this weekend. We go hunt this weekend. I'm like, like, man, I got this to do, but this guy wants to go hunt. And I'm like, yeah, we're gonna go hunt. Start putting off stuff and whatnot. Eventually he's like, I would go hunt and I hunt so much sometimes, man. I was, if I go shoot, go shoot a few birds. And I was like, ah, I'm all right. I can, I can go hunt three or four hours and be done. He'd go out, you know, he, he'd hit a bird, not find it different things. And he's like, man, I just want to get one. It took him a while to get one and he finally got one. And, uh, I think once he held in his hand, he's like, okay, yeah, I want to do it. So we hunted from end of October through, was it January? And he was at January. It's like the season's not over. It's still good hunting, but I just got busy and he wanted to keep going. And I was like, I mean, you want to go so bad. It's like, I don't want to lend you my dogs, but I mean, those are my babies. Yeah, exactly. Well, I just want a dog, man. And that's when I reached out to you. If you remember, I reached out to the man. I got a buddy picked up that center. Yeah. He got that center. And I actually, man, that set our camera. Rich low for Richard low. Yeah, Rich, that dog actually turned out to be great. Um, he just didn't have the confidence. I don't, he's a four year old setter. And, uh, he, whenever we would go hunting, the guy, he wouldn't go by himself. I'd always go with me. And so I would go new places and try new things. And his dog just didn't have the confidence at first. And I kind of was like, Oh, he's a dud. Because, you know, my dog would go run two, three, 400 yards, which still isn't a whole lot when you get to, Well, once you get to 400, you start to get out of there, my dog would go point his dog. We'd eventually get there and, uh, my dog still holding his dog would kind of go walk by and go do his own point. So I knew he hadn't hunted with any other dogs or anything and he's only finding birds because we were kind of like putting them on the birds. Yeah. And, uh, I was like, well, I mean, at least he points. And so we went out, I took him out to Nevada a couple of times and, uh, one day I left early. I was like, I gotta go. And so, uh, he stayed out and, uh, the dog ended up turning out. He found several cubbies, uh, end up being a natural retriever. And I don't think he ever actually truly been hunted over. He'd been worked, never hunted over. And now he retrieves the hand or hold his birds based on the. Based on him putting five weeks in non stop hunting. I guess he's what I hear. I've seen him a little bit, but yeah Seems like a softball. Cool. That's good. And that's I mean you're I mean Like you say you can you have two ways to train a dog you can you know, obviously speed up the process You know have someone like me You know, train the dog, or you can put them on wild birds. If you can get wild birds and run them with another dog and things will start kind of clicking, you know, so I mean, essentially that's what we do in training is just speed the process up. But I mean, there's, I mean, obviously over the years, thousands of dogs have been trained just by people. Bird exposure on wild birds and as long as they're okay with gunfire, you know, and you introduce them to that properly, they can, you know, they're, they're predators. So you start putting them on game and one gets knocked down in front of them. Oh, what is it? And then, you know, they get a nose full of that. They can. Start cuing into it pretty quick, you know, so no doubt. I think the biggest thing is just just the reps like repetition just Getting the dog out there getting them on birds and you know having the discipline to not shoot when he doesn't do what he's supposed to do But that's probably the hardest part Oh, yeah, it's hard I mean when you're in utah and you go hike you go put six or seven miles in and you see One covey birds and the dog as you're walking in on the dog breaks his point. It's like man i've been working all day You I'm going to shoot them. But I mean, that comes down to discipline. And frankly, I know I don't have the discipline to sit there and not shoot every time I do now, now that I'm able to find birds all the time, but when I was finding a covey or two, Hey, like, man, I got to shoot, shoot. Like I said, I brought, and before I brought him to you, I had another guy working with my dogs out of Oklahoma and, um, he was, he was really good with dog. Yeah. And for some reason, uh, why can't I think his kennel man, But, uh, he, he did a really good job dogs. He takes in pretty much this pointers and setters. And, uh, he's really good with them. I gave him some two and a half months when they were like three. And he got them solid. And you know how dogs go to training, they come back and you don't, you don't work them the same. They kind of pick up their own habits and end up living with the habits. Yeah, they, uh, yep. Yeah, for sure. Um, I was just had a thought, but then I couldn't think of it. Well, I want to ask just a couple more questions here. Then we'll kind of, we better wrap this puppy up. But, um, what do you, over the last few years, have you seen a change in the populations? Do you feel like they're on the rise? Do you feel like they're on the decline? Is it just area dependent or what, what do you feel? I'd say on average, they're on the rise and, uh, the way I kind of judge that is based on what I see, but also like, I know we're talking about how to find birds and whatnot, but, um, maybe we touched on that just a bit, is that, uh, Nevada does really good. I think they do the best set up, you know, these three states, Utah, Idaho, Nevada, they do like a real, they do like a real count survey on how many birds they see and they even do it better for you. So they take all the homework out of you, find those that they tell you what, uh, hunt unit they found them in. And so, um, you can just go get the hunting unit map and then compare that to where they saw, what numbers they saw, and you can just go pick them out and go find them. I mean, like, they basically, they're here. We saw birds right here in this 10 square mile radius. We saw hundreds of birds. Just go pick a hill and see what, what looks good. That's on, that, is that on their website or where's, where can people find that? Yeah, that's on, uh, I want to say it's like Nevada Dow Department of Wildlife. Yeah. Or if you just go on Google. Chukar survey. Nevada Chukar survey. Yeah, it'll come right up and they do a really good job. And, um, they even, they even, I think the, like the state even has like a podcast when they do it, like the checker survey, like they'd have one last year that came out in like September. Like I've got it up, I've got up in front of me and they, they do total count, they've got it for per CounTyce. And then they've got it, they say thumbs up if it was good, uh, equal, if it's the same as last year. Like it they do a really good job with that. That's harsh. Like that's a lot of reason like going over there It's because it's it's predictable. I know what to expect. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah tax tax dollars at work right there I guess or license dollars, you know, that's that yeah, that's worth uh, I guess that's worth buying a license paying the you know, obviously paying the fishing game It's nice to you know, have them help you out a little bit as Andre, you know Give you an area to actually kind of target at least Yeah, and like I understand those guys who want to drive out From from back east to go hunt chukar. You can always make a phone call to the, uh, not the game or what are they called? The wildlife biologist and they'll, yeah, they, they know everything. And then if you, they know your guy comes out of town, they'll share whatever they can to help you. And, uh, I've actually done it for when I first moved out here. I was like, man, I want to go over to Idaho, but I don't know what to look for. Made a phone call. I'm like, yeah, man, if you just look for this, this and this, and you got water, They'll put, they may not tell you exactly what it is, but they'll tell you everything you need to know to make sense. Yeah. I did the same thing when I went up bear hunting to Idaho. I said, you know, they, they, and I think, and the funny thing is I got up there bear hunting and there were a bunch of Utah guys there that come up and, Oh, do you talk to the biologist? Like, yeah, we told, the biologist told us to check out this drainage and this drainage. And. And so I kind of got that. I'm like, okay. And it definitely, there were guys had seen bears, you know, but I mean, so I think they'll put you on the mountain range area and then the best thing I do is like, okay, there's a lot of people here. I'm just going to drive a half hour this direction away exactly from where this was to look for the same habitat. And then I found less people and more bears, you know, and so like you said, they, they, I think they'll point you in the right direction. I think big game too, is a little. Probably a little harder to be put on. I think chukar and birds, people don't care. They're not as probably not as secretive about it. Right. Cause they know for chukar, you got to work for them too. So more people are a little more, that is one cool thing about chukar hunting, a little more people are a little, a little more open to sharing some spots because they know, Hey, well it's, you know, if you're, if you really enjoy it, you'll maybe get after it, but some guys might just go try it and be done with it after their first time, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. Some of the best people talk to you about find each other or the big game guys, cause they spend the most time out there. That's a good tip. Yeah. That's a good tip. Yeah. Ask your big game hunting buddies and be like, Hey, see any grouse and you're out hunting or see any, uh, chukar or quail or whatever, you know, and mostly I'll be out. I'll be out in the two tracks and see guys out spotting scopes and whatnot. And I'll just say, Hey man, like you guys looking at, Oh, you're looking at deer. Yet, you know, like you seen any, like, yeah, I seen a few, like come out here, chucker hunting. They're like, Oh man, almost every time they're happy to tell you. Cause they're never chucker hunting. Yeah. Yeah. And they may never even, they may not chucker hunt at all. Right. So it's the, I'm sure if you're the same one, you're like, dude, I was chucker hunting, I saw a big old buck over here and you know, you don't have a deer tag, you know, just reciprocate. I think that's a cool thing. Yeah. You know, within obviously reasons, not giving maybe your honey hole away as hunters, but if it's not going to hurt you, it's like, Hey, I'll help you out. You help me. Like, you know, we all want to be out there and have a good time. So, yeah, no, that's seriously it. Yeah. Cool. Well, I think we better wrap it up, buddy. Had you on the phone here long enough. Any other last tips or anything you can think of that you want to share with the audience? If anybody listening is welcome to get in the trucker hunt, man, I would just recommend going to get a dog and. Give him the tice Because tice I got actually I was just talking about the other day with one of my surgeons, uh, Everybody didn't know actually i'm in medical sales now And my surgeon one of my traumatologists hunts quite a bit And uh, he was just looking for a guy to work with his new dog He just wants somebody soft handling and isn't going to be you know, heavy handed with the dog First person that came to me out in the west is tice and I know there's pretty of good other other handlers are great but If you're in that Salt Lake area, I don't really know of too many other, you know, trainers with a platform and, you know, a kennel who even, you know, you board my dogs. I don't know how open you are to that, but yeah, I mean, Tyceson Drake. Clean kennel and you don't have, but what a few dogs, do you? Yeah. Yeah, no, we, we have a good little team and we, yeah, we, we will, on average, we'll train around 30 or so dogs. So we, I mean, that might sound like a lot when you got, you know, handful of guys to help you out. I got a good team, you know, Jeff's been with me for 10 years and Ian's been with me for eight years. And so. So they know my, my, my program. And so we're all on the same page. So it works out good. And I'm doing a podcast. They can, they're training and working client dogs. And that's one thing I can promise. If dogs come into us, they get worked and they get trained. And cause that's, I mean, that's really your greatest marketing tool is, uh, is your product. Right. So, um, we want everyone to take their dogs out, have a good time and, and share, share that with their friends and, and keep them, Keep them coming in. So anyhow, all right. All right, folks. Well, thanks, Justin, so much for spending some time. Hopefully this, uh, inspires you guys to get out in the hills. Uh, you know, if you're looking for something to do in life, sometimes we get stuck in the rat race of just, you know, going to work, coming home. What should I do? Get into chucker hunting, get out and hike. I mean, like we were saying earlier, worst case scenario, you get a good workout. It's going to help your health and, uh, And there's nothing better than doing it with the dog too. So there's pretty opportunity in Utah, Nevada, Idaho to chase birds, just because our pheasant populations aren't the best, it doesn't mean there's not other opportunity out there and you can have just as much fun and make some great friends and see some beautiful country. So, you know, thanks Justin, have a great day and we'll, we'll be in touch, man. That was good, man. Talk to you later. Thank you.