(EP. 46) Force Fetch Training. What is it? Why do it? How to use it.

In this episode I talk about Force Fetch training or the Trained Retrieve. What it is? Why do it? How to use it and why it is a good thing for most dogs. Enjoy!!

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Transcript

Speaker 0:50

All right folks. Welcome to the Bird Dog Podcast. My name is Tyce. I will be the host of the show today. Thanks for tuning in and hopefully we can, uh, share some information with you guys that'll be, uh, beneficial. And, um, yeah, it's been a little while since we've done a podcast. We had the Western Hunting Expo here in Utah. That was awesome. It was so fun, uh, having people come out and talking to. Everyone about dogs and training and hunting and just all the stuff that we, that we love. So, um, looking forward to doing that again next year. We'll have some cool mountains there. Uh, I had some my ducks there that I, uh, shot in New Zealand last year that, uh, paradise Shell, ducks, they were there. So that was, um, hopefully fun for people to see those birds is obviously they're all the way from New Zealand, not very common, so they were. Pretty tricky to get back. Um, well, not tricky, it just was time consuming and had to go through some loops with, uh, you know, avian bird flu. They had to be processed through a broker and the broker has to take'em to a certified taxi dermis here that basically cleans'em again when they get here. And, um. I guess, you know, the government regulations are pretty worried about bringing, uh, bird stuff into the United States. So, uh, those are pretty fun to hopefully share with you guys and we'll have'em there again next year for, for you guys to check out. So, um, if you're new to the show, thanks for listening. Um, I appreciate you taking the time. I just spent taking some time to spend it with us today. And, um, a little bit about me. Uh, my name is Tyce. I, uh, train. I've been training gun dogs ever since I was a little kid. Um, I'm 44 years old now and been training professionally for about 20 years now, so I. We own a business called Utah Bird Dog Training and also field bred Golden Retrievers and Utah Pointing Labs. We have a little, few different business websites, um, that we, um, we don't do as many lab letters as we used to usually do one or two a year. Um, but if you are looking out, looking for a lab, you can reach out to us. We did have a breeding that was supposed to take place. We got a couple ties and unfortunately. No pups. So, um, we're gonna try some supplements on the female, um, get her, get her, uh, body, um, tip top for, for breeding potential and hopefully we'll get some pups, um, on the ground this next letter.'cause we did have people, um, deposits on all those pups. But, um, we'll, we'll see if we can make it happen again. If you're looking for some, uh, really nice hunting golden retriever, we do breed those on the side also. Um, I think the benefit of going with a trainer that does breeding too is, uh, you know, obviously being very involved around dogs and knowing health clearances and those different things, um, we try to not only produce obviously, a healthy dog, but as we train these dogs and work with them and learn their personalities and how they respond to training. Then and, um, we can try to balance that out trying to produce better dogs. So when we know that this dog has this kind of personality and this one has this personality, if they're two per se negative things that we don't love. Let's say you have two Barkers and you're like, ah, we don't want to hold, we don't want to produce more. You know, vocal dogs, then you obviously want to avoid breeding those dogs, you know, together. So, um, so yeah, we'll, or if you got one that has a lot of energy and you're like, man, that's a little too much. Unless you're trying to get'em all into maybe field trial homes or, you know, someone that can handle that much energy. You know, we try to balance that out. We want a good family dog.'cause you know, 90% of the time these dogs are. Just family dogs and then we take'em hunting and, but we want a really nice dog that's gonna enjoy the hunt and get after it, uh, you know, when we're hunting. So, um, if you're, so that's what we try to produce. Nice, healthy, all around good family hunting dogs that can still be taken to. You know, higher levels of training. If, if that's something you're wanting to do, you can check us out at field breaded golden retrievers.com and also on Instagram Field bread, golden retrievers. My wife Rachel, she, she heads that up and does all the posts and she's been helping me post on social media too, is it just takes time. I'm more of a hands-on guy when it comes to, you know, training and getting those things done and. I do, um, geek out and love putting videos online and watching dogs work, and, but, uh, it does just take time. And my main job is obviously training dogs and, and sharing some, and doing a podcast here and there with you guys. And so, um, anyhow, so all this information I'm sharing with you is just my, my personal opinions, things I've learned from experience. Training these dogs and feel like what's worked best for us and um. And so yeah, hopefully some of these tips can help you guys out. I've trained dogs all the way through the, the master level, and of course titled them through their junior senior master at the A KC all the way up to the GMPR Grand Master pointer retriever level at the American Pointing Lab Association. I have not run HRC tests, hopefully gonna run my first HRC test this year. We just haven't really had'em in Utah in the last couple years. Uh, club has started up. So we're gonna be running some HRC. I'm excited to try those out. Um, and, uh, and slash be fun. So we, we do the test to put titles on our dogs and, and some of the testing, obviously for our clients too, that want to have some titles on their dogs. But, um, my, my, uh, going back to my roots, my love of train of training is having a, you know, a super nice hunting dog. So, um. It from a business standpoint, we train everything from pointers to retrievers, so there's not many breeds we haven't worked with. I think that's kind of something different. A lot of guys just are retriever trainers or pointer trainers. We can do it all. So we are pointers and re pointer and retriever trainers and we do just obedience training. We have a lot of clients that just bring in, we have a great day in for training right now. And I think the cool thing about that is we get to work with a lot of different breeds, a lot of different personalities, and I think that can make you a better trainer. Just having that versatility of working with so many different animals and breeds, um, instead of just Labradors or just. You know, German, Troy Air pointers or whatever. We, we can hopefully give you guys some insight into many different breeds. So, um, if you guys have any podcast subjects, training subjects, uh, or training topics that you would like, uh, me to talk about, um, you can send us, uh, email at, um, the Bird Dog podcast@gmail.com or dm us on Instagram, the Bird Dog podcast, or Utah Bird Dog Training. Or field bred golden retrievers, any of those say, Hey, I'd love to hear about this topic if you have any insight, and we will all strive to, uh, answer those questions for you guys. So, um, today I think I had a couple topics in mind, but I think I want to talk about, um, force fetch training. So, um, another name would be the trained retrieve or the conditioned retrieve. Um, so as I talk to clients that are coming to train or bringing their dogs in for training or talking to people that are talking about our different programs, um, force Fetch is part of our training program. So, um, just to kind of give you an overview of what Force Fetch is, is basically teaching the dog to pick something up with its mouth on. Command. So naturally when you are throwing, let's say you grab your dog, the dog doesn't have any training, or it's a puppy or whatever it is, and you take a dead duck or you take a bumper. And you throw it out there, and let's just say we're using a bird. It's kind of new. It's exciting. You throw a bird out there, the dog runs out there. And, and from that point, we're gonna have a lot of variables to the retrieve. So the dog could run out to the duck, it could smell it, and not even pick it up. Kind of give it a few sniffs and then, then, what the heck is this thing? And then leave it. Um, a dog can run out there, put its paws on it, hold it down, start grabbing it with its mouth. Start plucking feathers. Um, and basically destroying the bird. Or it could go out there, grab the bird, it could start chomping on it, it could go out there, grab the bird. It could run away with it, it could go out there, it could grab the bird and bring it back and drop it at your feet. It could bring it back and deliver it a hand. It could drop it halfway. And so there's just a lot of, there's a lot of variables, um, to the retrieve aspect. And so, um. So, uh, that's kind of, that's kind of what the force fetch, um, is, is, is the goal, is to clean that, clean that all up, clean that whole process up. So, um. When you force fetch a dog, your te uh, well, your te, so you have two par, you have two parts when you're working a dog. So you have the obedience, which is gonna control the dog's movement, right? So when we tell the dog to sit or we tell the dog to lay down, or we tell the dog to come to us. Or whatever we're telling that dog to do, that's gonna be obedience and control the dog's movement of the body. So our program, we have what something called the foundation, which, um, obedience is all part of that properly we eco or condition'em, um, with the eco. Um, so the dog. Understands how the eco works. That's another topic I'd, um, like to talk about. Can be controversial. Controversial in some groups of people. I was actually listening to a podcast the other day where a gentleman, uh, you know, didn't like, um, didn't agree with force fetch and didn't agree with, um, ecos. And um, and I think once you. Force fetch a dog and you use ecos and you use'em properly. That they are amazing tools and force fetches is, uh, an awesome thing to have with dogs. So now do you have to do the train retrieve or force fetch on a dog? Not necessarily. And it depends kind of on the dog. And I'll get into that a little more. Here as we continue to talk about it. But, um, again, let's kind of go back to square one. So there's a lot of variables to a dog's retrieve. So, um, as a puppy, when you get a puppy in, I work on conditioning the dog to retrieve, um, naturally without any pressure. So I use a lot of physical touch with the dog. When the dog comes into me, I'm not gonna rip the bumper out of the dog's mouth. I'm gonna tell the dog, hold, hold, hold. I'm gonna stroke it side down, kind of scratch it side, give it a little rub down. If the dog drops the the object, I'm gonna release the dog. Or I'm gonna not release it, but kind of holding it on the ground so it can't run off. But all. I'll kind of put my arms around it and if the dog, um, drops the, the, the, the bumper that I'm playing with the puppy, I'll immediately stop petting the dog. And then as soon as I'll tell the dog fetch, and if the dog happens to grab the bumper, as soon as he grabs it, I'll start petting the dog again. And it's amazing through these little puppies and just that early conditioning, that through physical touch, you can essentially teach'em. To pick something up on command and they figured out really quick.'cause dogs love to be, have their side scratch and everything. So you're basically just repeating a command and then all of a sudden they hear that word and they're like, oh, if I hold command, if I hold it, I'm just gonna get here and get this massage. If I drop it, the massage stops. You tell the dog fetch, uh, praise the dog. Good dog. As soon as he grabs it, then you can go ahead and fetch, hold, hold. And stroke'em down. And, and that's gonna help transition them. When we do the formal training for the train to retrieve that will, that little part will just help them figure it out that much easier. So it's kind of like, it's just a reward based training, but instead of using a treat, you're using physical touch. And so that's something I've probably honestly only started doing the last three, four years, kind of playing with it more and, and realizing how well it does work. So, um. I'm, I continue to learn just the little things. Um, the timing of the touch and those things can, can, can make a difference in what you're trying to do. And really, with a dog, we're looking for consistency in the dog's life. So if you let the dog do things one way or another, um, for a period of time, well then you're gonna have to change that behavior and then keep'em consistent there. So. You know, when it comes to like a puppy, a lot of times, um, you know, people have a batch of puppies. And the puppies, you know, maybe they have'em in a whelping box or something where the puppies obviously can't just get out and go over, go wherever the heck they want. And so the little puppies jump up on the wall inside the whelping box. Well, when people come see'em, they look over the wall and they see those puppies. What do they do? The puppies jump up, excited to see the person. The people start scratching them on the head and, oh, you're so cute and loving on'em. Well, that you're rewarding that puppy for that behavior of putting its feet up on that wall and jumping up there and you're petting on'em. And now the dog's saying, oh, like jumping up on things. Or jumping up on people. Gives me this physical touch, gives me this affection. So instead with my puppies, what I do, if they jump up on the wall, I push'em down and then I love on'em when their feet are on the ground, when people come over, if they, if the puppy tries to jump up on'em, I say, please don't pet them. When they do that, when down, then pet'em and then reward'em. So we're just trying to keep those consistent behaviors. I don't really know any. Very few people enjoy having their dog jump up on'em. Now, you can't teach a dog to jump up on a command, but again, even then you're kind of playing some borderline mixed signals. So I just don't like my dogs jumping on me if I have nice clothes on, or if I have work clothes or whatever it is, and I go out and see my dogs. I don't need their paw prints on my, on my nice clean clothes. Again, just remember from a puppy, you're creating habits that we're gonna try to help hope those will carry on through adulthood. And so, um, I kind of got off this tangent on physical touch and stuff, but it transitions into force fetch. So as we're doing puppies, we're actually conditioning that dog to hold and start using force fetch commands that we're gonna be using. So there's two different ways that people typically do force fetch. Um. And, uh, and we usually don't force fetch a dog until they're through their obedience training. So they've understood, um, how pressure works. Um, pressure would be considered a low level discomfort. So pressure would be like a choke chain. You pull up on the choke chain, you tell the dog sit. Once the dog sits, you release the pressure of the choke chain. You don't keep choking the dog. And so there has to be some type of. Pressure there, or slight negativity and for the dog to know to turn that off. If it to do something, it can turn that off. So now in the beginning. We do, you know, we do, we start off with a puppy with, um, reward-based training. Um, and we, and it's more they, we do it'cause they want to, and then when they get older they transition to, they have to. And so, um, we start'em off on all the commands and using those commands that we're gonna be using. Um, and then when they transition to the formal training, when they're six months of age or older, now the dog is more now a teenager, um, type. Um, animal and human ears, and he's kind of testing the limits and those hormones are kicking in and that's where they start thinking they've ruled the roost. And that's where we like to do the formal trainings. And we're anywhere between six months and two years, we have trained older dogs, um, and they've just had a little more life behind them, so they see life as a certain way. And so when you change that, it's kind of like telling an old. Person, Hey, you've, you know, you sleep in every day till 9:00 AM and now you're getting up at 5:00 AM and they're 70 years old. And they're like, no, I've been doing this for a long time. I'm not changing my habits. So we're trying to, so, but can they, sure, they can, they can change their habits. It might be a little harder in the beginning than someone that's just like, oh, mom and dad gets'em at 5:00 AM every day. And they're like, okay, I guess this is the way life is. And when all of a sudden, you know, and, and it's just, and you're keeping them consistent. You know, is that analogy. So anyways, so we start'em off these puppies on, um, you know, that reward-based training. And then we, and, and then obviously once we do the formal obedience training, the dogs understand how pressure works, they understand how it turns off, and then we, then the dog is prepped and ready to go for the, the force fetch. Now you can train a dog without. Ecos and do all the obedience training and you know, just using leash work type training and force FET with that, an eco, um, we typically like to do at least a collar condition. The dog on a, on the very least, a kennel and a hear command to come to you before we will. Force fetch a dog. And because we do overlay it with the collar and so you can reinforce the force fetch with the eco, um, so you're not having to pinch the ear or pinch the toe. So as we transition into force fetch, there's two different ways to. Typically, most people I've seen some other ways, but typically, um, people put pressure on a dog with an ear pinch or a toe pinch. So the inner ear on a dog is, is sensitive. The toes on the front, toes on a dog, the two toes are sensitive. So when you pinch those toes and maybe turn'em a little bit and pinch'em, or you pinch the inner ear, the dog's gonna be like, ah, that kind of is uncomfortable. And so essentially what we'll do is we'll teach the dog the hold command. And you may use, I've used a regular bumper. You can use whatever you want. Some people use paint rollers, um, a canvas bumper, um, the gunner bumper, new gunner bumpers. I really like. Um, you can pull the, even the handheld part out the little. Handle. So it's just the bumper and you can use those, they're kind of a foam fill. They kind have a spot in the center where they can grab it. It's kind of elevated off the ground as you start transitioning that dog to the ground. Sometimes they don't like to put their lips over, so they're like touching the ground to grab the object off the ground. And so I, that's what we've been using more as the gunner bumper. Um, we like it. It's just comfortable for the dogs to hold and, um, so we would, so I'd recommend that, but we've used dowels with rope around them in the beginning to start off. But generally I don't use a lot of, I don't use like to use a lot of plastic bumpers. It just seems like if they're salivating for maybe, you know, some stress during the training, it just gets kind of slippery and slobbery and something that's more kind of foam or canvas or a paint roller or something like that. In the beginning stages is a good object to use, but a lot of people will get'em up on a table so they're not bending over with their back. And on the ear pinch, or the toe pinch or on a tailgate. And what you'll essentially do is you'll work the dog on hold, try to get the dog really comfortable holding an object first. And that's just basically holding the dog. What I do is I'll put the bumper in the dog's mouth. I'll tell hold and, and just like the puppy, I'll, I'll, uh. Kind of hold underneath the chin and make sure you're not pinching gums or anything like that. Tell the dog holding as soon it's holding. Usually it's gonna happen. They're gonna fight it, so you're gonna want to be able to hold their collar. And you're making them hold that object in their mouth, but as soon as they're holding it, you're gonna give'em that verbal praise. Good dog, good, you know, and, and kind of a calm, good dog. And start stroking'em down. If they spit it out immediately, no more, no more physical touch, you put it back in their mouth, hold, and you stroke down from, you know, down along their neck, along their back on their side. Good dog. Hold, hold. Hold. And that dog's gonna be like, okay, this, this is comfortable. When I'm sitting here holding this, I enjoy this, this feels good. Um, if they drop, if they spit it out, stop petting'em, tell'em, fetch, put it back in their mouth. Hold, hold, hold. Just like those puppies. But now we've got an adult dog or a juvenile dog that we're working with. So. And tell'em if they spit it out. No physical touch stops, obviously still gotta hold the dog. We're gonna work that, roll that bumper into their mouth, um, and get back in there. Hold, hold, hold. And what we're looking for is that dog just starts getting comfortable holding that object in their mouth. They're like, okay, this is not that bad. Um, this is comfortable and, um, some people get'em where they'll start walking around with it and holding it and, and doing a lot of hold work that never hurts. The more hold work you do, the probably the easier it's gonna be when you start applying that pressure on the dog. So let's say your dog's holding the bumper really good. You can put it, roll it into the dog's mouth pretty easily. Dog's holding it. You can even start hold having your hands away from it and the dog's holding it, and you're just like holding. He's just hanging out there holding it, but he's not gonna generally pick it up off the ground. You're gonna have to physically be rolling that bumper into the dog's mouth for the force fetch. So, um, this is where the pressure comes in and the dog starts to learn. It needs to, it wants to avoid that pressure by reaching forward and grabbing. The bumper. So let's say you're doing a toe pinch. Um, the toe pinch, there's some things online, how you wrap the, the rope around their leg. You can use like a paracord is what we usually use. And it'll wrap down around the toes. And, and so when you pull those, pull on that cord, it's gonna pinch those toes and essentially you're gonna pull on that cord, tell the dog fetch. We're gonna, in the very beginning, you have to put, as you start pin making the toes uncomfortable, you're gonna roll that bumper into the mouth. As soon as the dog goes in there, you're gonna release that pressure. So instead of using physical touch, as soon as it goes mouth, we're gonna use pressure on bumper in the mouth, release pressure, and the dog goes, oh, if I grab that with my mouth. That goes away. And I don't like that. That's a little uncomfortable. Someone's pinching my toes. So when you start doing that again, start applying some discomfort and you're putting it literally on their lips or in their mouth in the beginning. And what you'll see is they'll start opening their mouth or they'll start grabbing it and as soon as they grab it, you gotta release that pressure. So they go, oh, if I do this, this goes away. And so, and then ultimately what you'll start doing is you'll put the bumper. Right there in front of the dog's mouth and you'll start saying, fetch. Without any pressure. You want the dog to have the choice to choose. And so you tell the dog fetch and if it, and it's like, oh, I gotta hurry and grab that'cause I don't want that to happen. If the dog doesn't, then you apply that pressure and you're gonna force him to grab it. So then he's gonna grab it, fetch. And so you're starting to teach the dog that fetch means to use his mouth to grab an object. Now if you're using the ear pinch, it's gonna be the same thing. You're gonna apply that pressure in the inner ear. You're gonna want to have to hold his collar'cause they. You gotta hold the ear and the collar your hand through it. Start pinching that inner ear. I'll usually use a shotgun edge of a shotgun shell and push from the outside of the outer ear onto that, and that's gonna cause a pinch there in the inner ear. Start applying pressure fetch. Put it in the dog's mouth. As soon as the dog, you get it in there, all the pressure is released. Good dog fetch. You can stroke'em down. Hold, hold, fetch, hold. Good. And then you're gonna slowly progress where you're bringing that bumper away from the dog's mouth and the dog fetch and the dog's gonna reach for it. And if the dog doesn't, then you have something to back it up. You can pinch the ear or you can pinch the toe and force the dog to grab that. You're teaching the dog to another, the trained retrieve is a kinder word teaching the dog to retrieve on command per se. So, um, not per se, but that's what you're teaching the dog to do. And so it's really cool when you have, you start getting command of the dog's mouth, where you can say fetch and they'll just grab it, like, oh, avoid pressure. And then when they do it and they show. Desire to do what you're asking, then praise the heck out of'em. You're their coach. When they do it, mark that behavior. Good dog fetch good, you know, and oh, and they're like, oh, that's kind of cool. My, my owner, my, my leader here thinks I'm a good dog, you know? And so build them up. Don't be like fetch and don't say anything if they do it and you're just silent, crickets. You want to encourage'em, use a lot of verbal praise. Good. Like mark that behavior, it's like giving'em that treat as soon as they show. Um, oh, I'm drawing a blank on the word I'm looking for, but when they show effort, I guess, yeah. When they, when they're putting effort into it and they're trying, we're gonna mark that behavior and that's gonna help spike the desire, the interest in that dog. So essentially you're gonna start putting it in the mouth, then you're gonna put it right in front of the mouth. Then you're gonna go a little further from the mouth. You're gonna work down towards the table or towards the ground. You can force. I've force fetched lots of dogs just sitting on a bucket. And doing an ear pinch and forcing'em right in their mouth to the ground. To the ground. And then once they're the, and then, and then you're gonna be forcing'em on the ground. Now this is where the transition's gonna be harder. When you take your hand away from a bumper, let's say you can put your hand on the bumper, on the ground and say fetch, and you're applying that pressure with the ear, the toe, the dog's grabbing it when you start withdrawing your hand from the bumper. And all of a sudden you start applying pressure. Just that little bit of change of not having your hand on it. The dogs will test you. So you gotta sometimes literally like have your hand by the bumper and the dog grabs it and then you slowly move your hand a little way. And so that dog just learns like, okay, the only way this turns off, and that is the key, is the only way that pressure turns off is if they put that mouth, their mouth on the bumper and through the ear pinch. And the toe pinch. There is no way out. The only way out is forward and grabbing that with their mouth. Um, don't speed the process. Don't go too fast. Work with the dogs. We've, I've had some dogs force fetch in a matter of days I've had dogs. On average, I would say we tell people it takes about a month to force fetch a dog. So once the dog is force fetched, we can pick'em, have'em pick up something off the ground. Um. We're getting, well, let's say we're on a table working'em with the tow pinch and we're getting now to walk down the table a little bit and grab the bumper. That's your next step. You gotta get the dog to move and then pick it up and then kind of come back towards you. Just like basically a small retrieve. You throw something, the dog goes away from you, grabs it and brings it back to you. So we want that dog to go forward. Movement. Grab the object. You can have it kind of turn around on the table and come back, but it's just the, that baby step. Of the movement in the beginning, there's no movement. The dog is sitting there, he's just literally in front of his face, and then it's slowly, slowly, slowly to the table. Now he's going down the table a little bit, maybe a foot now, two feet, three feet, four feet, grabbing it, and um. And, and then returning to your hand. Once he's moving down the table and you're starting to give him some just the fetch command and he is doing it without, um, force and he is doing it happily, then we want to start overlaying it with a collar. So when we overlay it with the collar, we're gonna start off with the vibration on the collar. We generally run a Garmin Pro five 50. We're gonna apply vibrations to the dog. The dog already is collar condition on some of the obedience, so understands how ecos work. Um, you wouldn't want to do this without a dog being properly collar conditioned, but we're gonna just apply a constant vibration. We're gonna apply the constant vibration, tell the dog fetch. If the dog doesn't fetch, then we're gonna back it up with the toe pinch or the ear pinch. The dog grabs the bumper and everything goes away. So. Because the reason we wanna start with the collar first is'cause we're trying to drop the ear pinch. We're trying to drop the toe pinch and just use the collar. So apply vibration, follow through at the ear. Pinch or toe pinch, dog grabs it, everything releases, and the dog goes, oh, to turn that. Vibration off, and there's no pain or anything with the collar, it's just vibration. The dog goes, oh, I can turn this all off by doing this object. And obviously you've already to that point, that dog already knows that, that it can turn things off, um, by doing a certain behavior. And then once the dog is, you know, just with the vibration starting to grab it, turn it off, then we can apply. Build up the collar pressure a little bit. So there's just a low, low level stimulation. It's more of an irritation like, Hey, that's a little uncomfortable, but the dog's not in this high pain threshold, but you're just applying that stimulation, telling the dog fetch. You apply stimulation and we'll use constant in the beginning. We'll apply low constant electricity. A pole on the toe, pinch of the ear pinch, the dog grabs the object and everything turns off. So, um, once the dog is doing that, then we transition. If your dog is on a table, there's gonna be a transition from the table to the ground. When you move'em to the ground, they're gonna be like, they act like, oh, school's out. I don't have to do it anymore. And so there is gonna be a little, oh no, okay, we gotta do it now on the ground. And um, it's gonna take a day or two for'em to start kind of getting almost back to where they were sometimes on the table. So dogs are very place oriented. So when you transition their training area, they're gonna test it again for a second. Like, do I have to do what he's been asking me to do all along in this new area? So, um. So just be prepared for that. So, um, our end goal to force fetch is be able to just tell the dog fetch and if the dog. Um, sees the bumper on the ground. Now you ca the fetch is not a blind retrieve, so some people get that a little mixed up in their head. They go, oh, like if I force fetch him, I can just go have'em pick up a bird way out there. No, it's not that. Force fetch is the com control the dog's mouth to essentially pick something up on command. So if the dog drops the bumper fetch, you can tell the dog fetch. If it doesn't pick it up, you can apply. Eco stimulation and the dog goes, oh, to turn this stimulation off, I gotta grab that bumper and, and pick it up and then deliver to hand. And so through that, the trained retriever, the controlling of the mouth, you can teach the dog to pick up bumpers, you can tell the dog pick up, uh, teach the dog to pick up birds and develop a really nice pattern into the dog's retrieve.'cause again, every there's. Going back to square one, there's so many variables to the retrieve on these dogs. As pointers generally aren't strong retrievers in general, there's some that retrieve better than others, some don't retrieve, and through that trained retrieve, we could actually. Teach'em, oh, you have to pick up the bird. And then we build the fun into it. So then they're like, oh, actually I do like doing this. I do like retrieving these birds. I do like having it in my mouth. Where in the beginning they don't really know, they're just, their genetics are kinda like, well, I don't know. I kind of picked this up, or I chomp on it. And what I see Force fetch does is it, it actually cleans up the retrieve and gives a nice release. Um, uh, so. If you have a dog that's hard mouth, that's chomping on birds, it fixes that, or greatly, at a high, high level, helps make that better. When the, when you go to release that bird out of the dog's mouth, they just, they just give it to you very easily. Um, and so it's, it's, it's an awesome tool to be able to use is in a finished hunting dog. So, again, just like you want good obedience, if you have good obedience, you can control the movement of the dog's body. Why wouldn't you want control of the dog's mouth if you just let the dog do whatever it wants Now? Yeah. If, if you're into really good breeding, some breeding can affect the retrieval and how dogs, how good dogs naturally retrieve. Um, but even dogs that are bred well and they're, they can crate. Habits of chomping or doing different things. Now, if you are using an eco, the nice thing about force fetch, and this is something you gotta be careful with about ecos in general, if a dog is not force fetch and a dog is retrieving a bird back to you or a bumper and you try to correct the dog with the eco, they may drop a bird or a bumper when you correct the dog with the eco. So you need to be careful. Using a collar on a dog that's not force fetch when it is retrieving an object. So, um,'cause what happens though, if you give'em a little zap, they're like, oh no, drop that bumper, bird, and they're like, oh, maybe, maybe that, like, maybe that object or something was tied into that. And so, um, the cool thing about force fetch is when a dog is. Gone through the train retrieve, let's call it train retrieve. We'll kind of bounce back and forth, whatever you, whatever you want to say. If you're just looking for the kind words, maybe force is not the best thing, but whatever. We're teaching the dog to retrieve on command. But when a dog is through the train, retrieve. The cool thing is, is you can utilize the eco when they have something in their mouth. So again, it allows you to pattern of nice professional retrieve or a nice retrieve or pattern habits and training into that dog's life. Just like with treat training in the beginning, we're trying to create habits and patterns. And force fetch is the same thing. We're trying to create a nice pattern of a retrieve into the dog's life. So, um. If the dog is not through a trained retrieve, then you have no control of the retrieve. You have control of the dog's body, and through that formal recall command, you're hoping the dog's gonna bring that bird back to you. But if you throw that bird and you're trying to tease the dog and get excited, and the dog does not want to pick up an object or a bumper or a bird, you might just be like, well, I guess I don't have a retriever. Where through maybe some simple training, well, not simple, but through some training, you can actually have a nice retriever so. Um, because if they, if you don't have control of the dog's mouth through the train tree, you're just hoping the dog does something and you throw something on the ground, Hey, fetch, pick it up. Pick it up, please. Fetch, fetch. And the dog's like what? Like there's no control of the aspect where when the dog is on the train, train tree, you can be like, Hey, nope. Fetch you. Make him pick it up. Good dog. Then praise them and build that pattern or that habit into these animals. So, um, you know. It's obviously really nice. You shoot a duck down and the dog goes and brings it back and heals and sits and holds. The bird just sits there nice and holds it in its mouth for you and delivers the hand. Now, if you could have a dog just naturally do that perfectly every time, sure, that would be cool, but that is an anomaly. I'm just gonna tell you. Working with dogs over the years, most dogs don't have really nice retrieves. Um, at least the level I think they should have'em, um, now. Some of the breeds that are trickier to force fetch. We'll kind of jump into that. Well, I'm gonna back up, actually, I'm gonna go a different way for a sec then we'll jump into that. Um, the reason too, when you force fetch a dog, the nice thing about it is when you're doing a lot of advanced work, when you're starting to do handling or casting where you're teaching the dog to go. Left or right or away from you. And you're essentially doing like extended obedience training, um, where you're guiding the dog through handling to a down bird or an object that they did not see fall out in the field. Now this is typically gonna fall with your retrievers. Um, when they're waterfowl hunting, you shoot multiple ducks down the dog's in a blind. It doesn't see the bird get shot down behind the group. Whatever it may be. The dog does not see the fall of the bird. If the dog sees the fall of the bird, you can just release the dog on its name to go pick it up, Joey, and he runs out there and he grabs your duck and he comes back and, and puts it in your hand. Well, if two or three guy hit down or one back in the bushes and Joey's in a. Mo Marsh blind and he can't see anything. Well, we need to handle that dog or guide the dog to that bird or somehow get from point A to point B, right? We can always walk out there and hey, hunt'em up and have the dog search around and look for the bird. And obviously we gotta work with that dog's skillset. We can try to line the dog the best we can with our hand. Release him on our name. Hopefully they carry a decent line to that bird. To get it. But the nice thing about handling is you can guide'em to A bird is there. If you're gonna run that senior advanced senior master type level dog, they have to be able to handle. Now, if you're trying to teach a dog to handle, that's not force fetch, can it be done? I'm not saying it can't, but when the hit dog can pick up things on command, it allows you to do a lot more. Practices in a session. So if I have a, a pile of bumpers to my right, I can tell the dog fetch or I can tell the dog over, pick those up, pick'em up to the left, right, left, right, left. And I can pick up essentially as many bumpers in a session as I want to. Now I'm gonna read the dog's personality. I'm looking for progression in the training session. Not overwhelming the dog, but I'm gonna have that dog pick up. As many as it needs to get the concept. And then the next day I'm gonna build on review, build, review, build, review, build until the dog gets to the level that I'm wanting it to get to. Through that trained retrieve though, you can always fall down and you can have the dog pick those up, pick those up, pick those up. Or a dog, if has really high retrieve desire, you might be able to have'em pick up 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, maybe 10 in a session, and then they're like, I'm hot, I'm tired. And at that point you're asking'em. The repetition to try to pick it up, but then the dog essentially goes, no, I don't want to. And now who is winning now? Who's leading in your training? Companionship. Well, he now decides he doesn't want to do it. So now he has control of the situation. So through the train, retrieving actually, you become that leader more because you're part of that breaking down process. Like you have to do it. And if you don't, I'm gonna make you do it. But then I'm gonna coach you and say, Hey, you're doing a great job. So it's no difference than kind of a good coach teaching a young man to play full. Nope. You're gonna run ladders if you want to be on this team. You're gonna run ladders, you're gonna get in shape, you're gonna do what we ask you to do. Um, and if that young man decides not to, it's kind of like that dog saying, no, I don't want to. But obviously as an animal, so you can say, no, you have to, and we're gonna, and we're gonna build you up and build your brain and make you po this positive and fun and have a good time with it. So, um, I'm a huge fan of their train retreat. Um, I just feel like it builds a nice dog all around. It gives you. Control, complete, um, control the training with an animal when it comes to, you know, the ob, the obedience and the retrieval. And, but in the beginning stages we do, um, you do want to do that. Physical touch, reward based training when it works really good for dog and still use reward base, verbal praise, um, you know, pressure release, all these things that help a dog find confidence and find freedom and wanna work with you together as a team. So. Uh, so it's pretty cool stuff. Now let's talk about certain breeds that to force fetch the smaller the dog is, the more challenging it is to be, to force fetch a dog. So, Brittany's French Brittany's, um. Little dogs. Okay, just little dogs. 20 pounds and under just little dogs, they are more challenging to force fetch. You're gonna take maybe twice as long, possibly you're gonna have to be twice as patient if you're gonna force fet'em. Now generally the dogs, we do a lot of force fetch are retrievers and not labs. And people like, why do I need a force fetch'em. They're a retriever. They should like to retrieve. Sure. Even my dogs that like to retrieve. I force fetch him. And then I, because I always have control and all the different aspects we've obviously talked about, but a dog that naturally likes having stuff in his mouth, force fetch is really easy'cause you're like, Hey, here's some pressure. Grab that. Like, oh, I already like grabbing these things so they just grab it. Right? So, um, it's really cool, um, to force fetch a dog that likes to retrieve. It's easier, but then dogs that. Don't like to retrieve generally your pointing breeds. And again, some of these smaller breeds. Let's just go, let's say we have a French BRI and it's a female and they're really small, and what I typically will do is I'll tell clients if it's just enough blend dog. Again, we're not doing a bunch of drill work and handling and retrieval stuff If we got a little upland dog or even a retriever of even any, any dog, if we're just doing upland hunting with this dog. You don't need to initially force fetch the dog. I would say force fetch is gonna come into play a lot more when it comes into um, uh, waterfowl type dogs. But let's kind of, let's talk about why not. If your dog has good obedience and you go out and you go pheasant hunting and you shoot the pheasant down, the dog flushes it up, points it, you shoot it down, and the dog goes in and gets that pheasant. And brings it back and brings it around your feet and drops it and you're like, Hey, I'm good with that, then I'm cool with that too. Like as long as the dog has a, a decent retrieve naturally, and you're just an up one guy, I don't believe you need a force fetch him. If we have a little Brittany in or something like that and we. Go out and we're shooting birds over this dog and it has a pretty good retrieve, you know, 75% or better. It's like brings it within 10 feet, drops it on the ground and, and the owner's like, Hey, I'm cool with that. I'm cool with that too.'cause that putting that pressure on that dog, that little dog to force, veteran. Is a pain. Um, little dogs just don't respond to that pressure as much. They're just smaller use more reps, lots more patient. And we want that dog to have a good attitude and to have fun. So that's where I generally don't on the force fetch. If it's an upland dog and it's small and if the dog has a pretty good rat natural retrieve, I'm gonna bend on the way of not for fetching that dog. So, um. If the dog doesn't have a good retrieve or zero retrieve, then I'm probably gonna go ahead and try to force fetch it and build that retrieve, and then build the game and the fun back into it and teach it to retrieve on command, and that retrieving is fun, that it's awesome. But it's gonna be more, it's gonna be more work. Just a heads up, if you're running a small, small breed dog. Now, the benefit of, now, again, we talked about this before. If you're running an upland dog and you're running an eco on your upland dog and you're reinforcing the hear command or whatever command it may be, and that dog has a burden in its mouth, be very careful on the eco or use vibration or very low stimulation, or reinforce obedience so that dog doesn't. Think the bird and the zap go together. So hopefully that makes sense. Okay. And I think the last topic we're gonna talk about force fetch, unless anything else comes to my mind. When we go through our force fetch program, we're gonna force'em from bumpers through smaller birds all the way up. Force'em on ducks and pheasants and bigger. And, uh, we usually don't go into geese, but we're gonna force'em up through the common game. Birds. Most people are hunting ducks and pheasants. Um, we'll start smaller bird, build the dog's confidence, work its way up until, and, and actually give the dog stimulation, force'em to pick up the dead duck, force'em to pick up the bumper. So if someone is out hunting and the dog drops the duck or the pheasant, they go fetch, the dogs wanna pick it up. They can make him pick it up and, and continue to reinforce that. Good. Retrieve pattern in the dog's life. If the dog has only been forced on bumpers and not birds, then what happens is when all sudden the dog experiences that and the dog is being forced on a bird, it's new, right? And that's where your da, that's where your breakdown in training happens, is when you go from point A, you're trying to get from point A to point F, and you're, and you, and you go. You just go too much, too fast or too new. So when we're training new things, we want to do it in the yard. We want to do it not in the field. We want to reinforce things in the field that the dog knows and not train these big new concepts.'cause that's where the stress happens. That's where the dogs like, I don't get what you're saying. This is too much. This is too big. Can create negativity and then negativity in the field. And we're hunting. We want the, we want the dog. To have a good attitude. We wanna be positive. We want to be confident. And so that's where you train in the yard. Reinforce in the field is my, is my belief. So we do force'em through dead birds all the way on force fetch training. Some of the, and clients encounter a dead bird. The dogs wanna pick it up. They can reinforce and the dog understands that. Again, just reinforce the training. It's not something new to the dog. Now, something I don't force fetch on is a live bird. I'd be very careful on this. So if you have a crippled duck dog runs out there to the duck and the dog's like, I'm not sure about this duck. It's kind of weird. It's flipping around on the water and it's legs are, you know, it's been shot in the head and the legs are paddling. It's upside down pat. They can throw dogs off like, well, is this thing gonna bite me? Is this kinda like a snake? Or what is this thing? And people will be like, fetch and they'll like. Start giving'em electricity and trying to make'em grab it. The dog might've been retrieving other stuff fine, but then encounters this new situation and they try to force him on it. Or a crippled pheasant that's, you know, the dog grabs it, slips out its mouth and dog tries to, you know, dog drops the pheasant that the bird's running, kind of running around, the dog's chasing around his mouth and they're like, fetch and they start applying electricity and forcing it on something. Like a live bird, generally it's gonna go the opposite way. It's gonna create negativity. The dog's already unsure about it because it's just kind of what's going on here. And now you're creating, trying to force'em into something like force'em into something they're unsure about and you're now, you're creating a negative thing. So if this happens, if your dog acts nervous, encourage'em. Hey, fetch. Fetch it up. Good boy. Just encourage'em to hate. Pick that bird up, bring it in.'cause they know what the fetch is, command is. But if they don't, don't go ahead and zap'em. Walk out there. Grab the bird, tease the dog with the bird. Make it fun. Oh, you want this? And bounce around.'cause the dog kind of chasing it, biting at it. Then toss that bird out there. Don't even make the dog sit. Just use that momentum. Let the dog carry out there. Grab that bird. A dog's head, a good space. He kind of runs out there. Chases it. Grabs it. Picks it up. Oh, okay. The bird's kind of flapping. Or same thing with a goose the first time on a Canadian goose. Don't. Force the dog heavily on a bird, even if it's dead, anytime it's a new thing or a live bird, I'm not gonna just crank into the dog. So let's continue to talk about live birds and maybe we'll finish up on geese. So if the bird is alive, just encourage the dog, tease the dog with a bird, throw it out there, um, give'em a little fun bumper we call it. And, and then all of a sudden the dogs be like, oh yeah, okay, I can grab it. Oh, this, this is actually fun. And then you bring it in and. And, uh, ring the bird's neck and it's no big deal. Dog has a good attitude. He maybe didn't go pick it up perfectly in the beginning, but it's just he's off to the races. Next time he, you shoot a cripple down, he is like, oh yeah, I've seen these, these are fun. He chases it down, grabs it, but don't just go into, I'm gonna push the button on it. So, uh, be very careful with that. Okay, sex, last thing is geese. Okay. So I had a client this year shot. Uh, uh, went out goose hunting with his dog. Dog had re shot. We had done a lot of duck hunting training. Dog is retrieving ducks, no problem. Had a lot of drive. He shot some geese and the dog was retrieving the geese on its own, no problem. And he shoots a goose down and it's a cripple. The dog runs out there, obviously this cripple standing up. He's unsure about it. The guy goes, Hey, fetch starts forcing the dog on a live bird. On a goose. And. Again, I just talked about it goes south. Dog doesn't wanna pick it up. Now the dog's avoiding that. Then he goes to even throw a dead goose out there. The dog is not wanting to grab that object and, and so you, what you didn't have to do is bring the fun back into it. Maybe start the smaller bird, force him onto it and build that confidence back up. So don't force on a goose. I don't ever just, if it's a first time goose, I'm not gonna go out there and just like fetch, give'em collar pressure.'cause again, it's new. I'm gonna go out there and tease him with the goose. I'm gonna shake the goose around, throw that. If the goose is alive, I'm gonna shoot it, kill it, whatever we need to do to get it down. Then just tease the dog with it, throw it out there, get that dog's confidence that he can pick up that goose. And, and bring it in and bring it into us. It's just a confident, it's a confidence building thing you're trying to do with them. Especially if the bird is alive, we're not gonna force'em. So now if a dog kind of, we're gonna kind of talk back a little bit here. You shoot a duck and you've, this dog's picked up a ton of ducks and he goes over and it's on land and he smells it and he goes, Hmm, I don't wanna pick it up. Yeah. Then I'm gonna go ahead and say fetch. If he doesn't pick it up, I'm gonna give him an option to choose. Then I'm gonna apply stimulation, fetch, and make him pick it up because I've already done it in the yard. I'm calling, I know the dog knows what I'm asking to, and he's just trying to decide if to use his authority to let me know if he's gonna. Try to retrieve it or not. So again, it just like a sit command. If I know my dog knows sit and he's understands the collar and I can tell him Sit and he's done it a thousand times at my house and then all of a sudden I'm out in the field and I go sit and he doesn't sit, I'm gonna make him sit.'cause I know he does it. I'm gonna be consistent with it. So that is the key, is consistency. Now, just like if I am in the field and I tell the dog sit and I know my dog knows sit and I go sit. And he doesn't sit and I let him get away with it. Then the dog goes, oh, maybe I am the leader here. Maybe I don't have to do what he says all the time. So we want that consistency. So Forest fetch is the same way. If we tell the dog fetch. It's something the dog knows and is very comfortable with. He's picked up tons of dead pheasants and tons of, tons of dead ducks in the yard, and he's proven to himself. He knows it. I'm gonna fall through and make sure he does it. I want that consistency. I don't want him being like in the field. I can get away with this in the yard. I have to do it in the field. I want it the same everywhere he goes in the field, in the marsh, and wherever that dog is at, he's gonna act the same way. We're gonna have that consistency, so. Um, again, all your training should be done out of the field, reinforced in the field, but those are just some tips on the force fetch training, why I believe it's valuable, what it does to help build the dog's confidence, what it does to pattern a nice. Professional retrieve into a dog. And also between that process, it teaches the dog to do something for you. It kind of breaks the will of the dog down and it helps him be, uh, part of the team member. Um, so it is, but it also is to use, be used with. Wisdom, I would say and and especially with the eco, and make sure you're using the timing properly. Just like the eco is an amazing tool when used properly, when used improperly, it can be. A negative tool. And if you go with a cheap collar and there's inconsistencies, electricity, so go with a good collar, make sure you're using it right. Make sure the timing is precise and that's gonna lead to confidence in your dogs. When you go put the eco on the dog's like, oh, I'm so excited. It's like getting a leash out to go on a walk. The dog knows he's gonna go work and he's gonna have a good time. So. Anyhow, but that's it on force Fetch. We're gonna go ahead and wrap this one up. Hopefully you guys can, could glean some little information on retrieving or force fetching or if you're trying to force fetch your own dog or kind of what it means or what that term is. And, uh, and you guys can see the benefits that I believe are behind it and I've seen with my own, uh. Personal hunting dogs. Now, when it comes to training, I didn't talk about this the beginning. Um, if you're working on guns with your dog or you have a puppy or you're working through gun issues, check out gun shy fix.com. So www.gunshyfix.com, it's a program designed to help your dog become essentially desensitized or comfortable with gunfire. So if you have a dog that's not. Um, hasn't been introduced to gunfire. It's something you could play and work around the dog to get it comfortable in a positive environment where the dog's having a good time, the gunshots are going off. It's mixed in with some music to kind of help. Build that, um, com comfortableness into it. And then when the dog encounters guns or works guns in the future, it's kind of like, oh, no big deal. I've heard this a lot, and, and it's a positive mind and it's something positive in the dog's mind. Now, if you have a dog that is gun shy, you've gone out and you shot over. And created gun issues. What we need to do is retrain the dog's brain, and that's what this is designed to do, is help let the dog's brain relax around gunfire. And then once the dog is relaxed, having a good time using the Gun Shy Fix program, um, then you want do a proper gun introduction. Take the dog out in the field. Um, you can take your speaker out in the field and transition'em. Out into the yard. So maybe you're doing the program inside your house, now it's going to the backyard, work the dog through it, then from the yard into the field, and then. Reintroduce the dog to some birds or something positive, a bumper or some a ball, something it really likes, and then do that gunfire at a distance and work your way in and, and get the dog's brain retrained on gunfire. So, um, so. If you guys are interested in something like that or getting your dog out on the right track, go ahead and check out gun shy fix.com. It's downloadable, downloadable, and then you can play it through a Bluetooth speaker. Um, and I recommend I use a turtle box speaker, something big enough that it can give a little a pretty good sound'cause you're gonna want to reach. Out close to the sound of a, the'cause there are actual guns going off in the program and you want that to be similar to obviously what the dogs are gonna hear when an actual gun does go off. So anyhow, check that out. Uh, we're also. Check out nda.com. Um, if you're looking for a really good dog cot that you want to have inside your house, you can do place work Or instead of a dog bed, you wanna run a COT system. Um, they're awesome. Um, we're gonna have a link in our, um, in the show notes and also for the gun shy fix. And um, and you can check those out. Uh, crispy boots, that's what we use are crispy boots. So they're the best. I am a huge, big game hunter too, in addition to a bird hunter. That's what I wear all fall. So go to Crispy and check them out. Um. And you won't be disappointed in their boots. So hope everyone has a great day. Training season is underway. It's starting to warm up. Our water's starting to warm up, things are looking good there. Hunt test season's coming, and in just a short matter of months, we are gonna be starting to hunt doves. We're gonna be starting hunting grouse and the whole cycle of life continues again. So, um, it's pretty awesome time of year to be training away. I know we're busy. Grateful for the work that we do have puts food on the table. Thanks for listening, guys, and hope you guys have an awesome day.