The Human Story
The Human Story podcast is brought to you by Yoked media hosted by Lincoln & Shaamiela. We love being human and we find the messiness of the Human Story fascinating. Come and join us for an unfiltered exploration of raw and deeply personal conversations. Through authentic storytelling, we dive into the complexities of life, our struggles, victories, and the profound moments that shape us. The series is about connection, resilience, and transformation, reminding us that while life may not be perfect, it can be beautiful. The Human Story is our invitation to listen deeply, reflect honestly, and recognise yourself in the shared experiences of others. These stories remind us that growth is possible, connection is powerful, and every journey no matter how imperfect is worth telling.
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The Human Story
Relational Intelligence- Seeing People Clearly
In this episode of The Human Story, brought to you by Yoked Media we focus on the importance of relational intelligence. Join Lincoln and Shaamiela as they unpack this topic, it's more than merely getting along it’s the quiet skill of seeing people with clarity, offering kindness without losing yourself, and recognising which relationships truly breathe life into you.
In this episode, we explore what it means to show up with open eyes and a steady heart. We talk about choosing connection over performance, the grace of setting healthy boundaries, and the strength it takes to be kind—not just to those we love, but to humanity at large.
It’s a conversation about seeing clearly, loving wisely, and knowing who’s really walking with you on the road.
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all-encompassing human experience.
SPEAKER_01:This is brought to you by Yogd Media. Well, welcome to the Human Story, another edition, another topic. So... Today's topic is relational intelligence. Now, if I told you that, like, what would be your automatic response? What would you think relational intelligence is? Well, if you're thinking it's someone that's extroverted, this has this gregarious personality that's loud, and it's someone that's in your face, that's not exactly what it is. Have you... come across people that just seem to have a great knack with people. They seem to understand their role in a relationship with someone. They seem to understand what it takes to have a healthy reciprocal relationship with someone. And that doesn't necessarily look like we would assume this outgoing person that knows everyone. It's someone that really understands what that picture would look like to have a great relationship with someone and understanding the role of various relationships in your life. So that's essentially relational intelligence as a definition. Shamila, in terms to you, when you hear the word relational intelligence, besides the definition, what does it prompt within you though?
SPEAKER_00:I do think, if I'm honest, I think about all the many different ways we have in the century described intelligence.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because there's so many different ways Yeah. Very true. Yeah. And so you asked me about relational intelligence, and I think that's what I think of. I actually think the word quality stands out. I mean, essentially, we're all relating all the time.
SPEAKER_02:True.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Whether we value the relating or not. But focusing on relational intelligence, whether you want to enhance that or grow that within yourself, essentially means that the quality of your relating but also your relationships generally improves. Got you. Yeah, and grows. And through that, obviously, you as an individual, you also grow. So I think about the quality of relationships particularly, you know, and also that we don't– it's an interesting thing that I experience when I work with couples is that everybody knows they're in a relationship, right? Yeah. And they marry.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:But it's almost as if they don't pay attention to the fact that they're in relationship, right? I don't know if that makes sense to you, but you almost need to remind them about the relating aspect.
SPEAKER_01:Very true.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I find when I work with couples or, you know, families or whoever comes together for discussion around what's happening in their dynamic. Yeah, so I find a lot of the time you have to almost remind people that, hey, you're in relation to another person, you're relating to them. I
SPEAKER_01:mean, the example you used, just from my own experience, I think about You know, when you're dating, things are kind of fresh and, you know, you show up kind of best version of yourself relationally or whatever that may be. But when you're married, once that title hits and you kind of get into routine and right of life, comfortability sets in. So I think it's always important in terms of how you show up to your relationships and what you bring to it. Because there's always that unofficial resume that Esther Perel says that you bring to a relationship. So it's the subconscious parts that you bring that you're always not aware of. So many times, you know, we also have to understand like how do things fit in in different seasons and you'll get into that too. But kind of like, you know, every season of your life, you might find, I love you mentioned to me years ago, maybe in a coffee conversation, you said to me, sometimes, you know, Lincoln, you hang out with certain people, right? And you just feel after you leave that conversation or that interaction and you feel drained. And I remember you said to me, it's like an energy vampire. I love that. I've never forgotten that ever. There's different sayings to that, but it literally comes out the same thing. It's about withdrawals and kind of emotional deposits. But I love that because that is so true. Some things you can never explain, but when you walk away, your energy tells you that.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And then I guess the opposite is true too. We often talk about when you and I have conversations or any other– interactions or relationships you have that really feels like it adds value to your life, you may feel really energized, you know, because of the impact that conversation had, but mostly probably because of the other person and the impact they've had on you. And so, yeah, so the opposite is true too. So it's, it kind of like makes the case for, I don't know, I think about how some people generally with or not, it's an actual pathology.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Some people really struggle with relationships. It's one of the things where they're most challenged in their lives is when they have to relate to others. It's
SPEAKER_01:crazy to think about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because it's so central to the human experience. But it is. It is something that can be a real, real struggle for individuals. And that's based on whatever that sort of unspoken resume that Mr. Perel refers to. Whatever it is that they come with into that interaction or into that relationship or workplace that influences, you know, how they experience relationships because some people choose not to have them.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, they're very much loners to themselves and very reserved and sort of disconnected from the world. And for whatever reason, we don't judge that. But, yeah. But they'll have to at some point, you know, go online shopping. Yeah. or go down to the store. And so even they are relating.
SPEAKER_01:100%.
SPEAKER_00:In that short interaction, even they then are still relating.
SPEAKER_01:I love that because if I think of relation intelligence, it actually amounts to culturally what's happening in the world. A lot of time in social media, we spoke about this briefly in another podcast, but we think that we are so connected physically is there with all the technology and stuff that's available to us and different mediums that we can supposedly connect with people. But actually it's caused the most disconnection in the history of humanity, I think. And the funny thing I find about that is if you look at generations that were born into sort of like 2000 and their Gen Zs, if you look at it, they actually struggle with general interactions at times. You know, One could say that their parents are the first point of socialization. How did they model that to their kids? And what are some of the, I'm not going to get into that too much, but what are the values that they portray in their household and how they bring up their kids? But to me, it's generally, when I say generally, what kids are exposed to. And I mean, I heard a lady that's, social media specialist speaking on the radio the other day in South Africa. And she was saying that, you know, that many of our kids go on these apps out there and we don't realize they have to actually take consent. So they were discussing this whole argument about, do you actually check your kids' phones, what they're doing? You know, because actually by them ticking, they're not of the age to make those decisions. They're still a minor. But it more comes down to, like you were saying, you know, the fact of relational intelligence is, are they, are they seeing, healthy relationships being sort of modeled in front of them and how do they engage with people? Because if you have nothing to model from, where do you start? What do you come back to if it's never been shown to you? And that's something to me that I find quite fascinating because what might be common sense to you and me that we can sit here today and have a general conversation like we had hours of conversations in the past coffee shops. It's not the norm for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00:No, and I'm actually thinking about another podcast I was listening to that I thought was really, really important with Jonathan Haidt who's written a book and essentially spoke about how smartphones are rewiring our brains and why social media is not really healthy for our children and how it changes them. And so, oh, I think what you were saying around, you know, Gen Z, a specific generation struggling with simple interactions that we kind of just think, oh, just get on with it. Yeah. You know, it's literally because I love the, I mean, you know, don't, you can go and listen to it and we'll link it for you. But I loved the subtleties he spoke of in terms of obviously face-to-face contact versus, you contact through a screen, you know? So like to your point around, we have so many access points, you know, to connect with people, but it's all virtual.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And he spoke about like the parts of the brain that lights up when you have physical interaction with someone versus when you have a virtual interaction with someone. Also just kind of like how, which I thought was really important is that how you perceive yourself and versus how the other person also perceives you because it's a physical interaction. And it's not about creating self-conscious individuals, but there's something about that social interaction that's really important for the development of the brain, first of all, but also like a social consciousness that you speak of, which is kind of like you're going to have simple interactions with people, again, whether you choose to be out there in the world or not. you are going to at some point have some simple interactions with people and to be able to do that in a way that you feel confident that you can do it. So I guess to your point, it's almost as if there's this sort of natural innate confidence that would have just been part of daily life and human interaction that perhaps now generations of present are perhaps beginning to lose out on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So it's made me think of that, actually.
SPEAKER_01:I completely agree with that. So then the next question really comes to me if I think about in a corporate setting, because that's a lot of my relationship, my daily interactions happens. And yes, we have different spaces. We understand that family life, friends, that type of thing. And understanding which relationships serve you really well in that particular time. And when I think about relationships in terms of interactions, it's very interesting to me if I look at relational intelligence and just my own growth and understanding my role that I need to play in a work context. I think we spoke about it a bit earlier today, off podcast, off air today, but it seems at this stage, Shamila, that I find that people come to work and because there's so much sort of sense of self of people, we spoke about it, you know, well, if I look at it, people come to work and they expect you to play the same role in solving their problems at work. It's not just a workplace anymore. And it comes, I know it's got to do with boundaries too. We spoke about that. Obviously with evolution, boundaries and stuff were easier to maintain because, you know, people would go work on a farm when the sun rise and then the boundary would be when it's sunset, tools down and you go home. And now with obviously with COVID and stuff that happened like that, the hybrid workspace, it kind of complicates things a lot more. But what I would say with relation to intelligence, what I found is that People expect you to solve their personal problems in a corporate space too. Now you go on the one space, you can go like, as a leader, is it really my duty to do that? Because remember, you have to understand you also have an outcome to attain with the team that you have. So now you find, okay, well, if a certain approach is working with one individual, do I cut and paste to be equal in a way, the same approach? But you have to realize with race intelligence, you can't do that. Unfortunately, yes, we understand there's certain things equally have to kind of in terms of the rules and regulations. But in terms of interactions with people, they're very different from one to the next because someone might be a Gen Z, a lot younger, and someone might be a boomer that's already working for 20, 30 years. And also where they are in their sense of self and identity and how you engage with them, what they want to take from the interaction, it's very different. Like, for instance, I would interact with an older person that's very kind of like, this is what you need to do. I'm not going to guide you too much. I'm not going to tell you what to do. And then the younger generations, they don't want the boundaries as much. They want to be liberal. But when things go wrong, then they say, but you didn't give me the structure. So it's so hard to navigate. Where do I at times push more to give you the structure when you want to be liberal and you say you want freedom? So I find personally for myself the different generational gaps. Once you start understanding that it's very different from generation to generation, Relationally intelligent things is quite a massive role to play in how you engage with people. And that's obviously from a work context. But I mean, you can apply that to any context. Any context, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think especially if you, I mean, I think about parenting. You know, if you're a boomer, so-called boomer, or a millennial, and you're raising children, and so your children automatically are of a different generation. And so, yeah, and so like there are things you're going to just have to accept that is part of the generation. But I mean, you know, parenting is a personal journey, it's a personal choice. You decide what you bring in and what you kind of leave out. And you're really such a big part of shaping that for your children. And so... Yeah, and so it maybe means that there has to be a little bit more effort. It's so interesting because you were speaking about the– so my children are not– they don't attend conventional schooling.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:As you know, they are home-educated. And so we don't do school at home, we do education, just so we can make a difference here. So that looks very different. It doesn't look like we're just busy with books all the time. It's like we're learning all the time. And so the central premise for me is that I'm constantly modeling and educating my kids in every aspect of life. And so sometimes that means that they have less social interaction. And so my work as a parent that I think was different to my mother's was to actually remind them you know, at a certain age of certain social cues because they're not as accustomed. I mean, they totally socially, you know, adapted
SPEAKER_02:for
SPEAKER_00:anybody wanting. But there are times where I've kind of got to go, okay, so people do this and they're like, oh, okay, mommy, you know. So that's been an interesting thing, you know, but I think that that's, I guess that's part of relational intelligence is knowing, Very true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they don't have a bell that rings and tells them to stand in line and all of that type of thing. And they don't wake up at a specific time. Generally, we have a routine. But yeah, it's just, I guess, just knowing to kind of be able to flow with something different.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. No, I mean, I completely get that. I mean, if I think about some of the relationships as well, I think about... Sitting across someone and then, you know, you also have to understand that 90% of communication is body language as well. So how important it is to take cues from people. Nonverbal. Nonverbal cues. So, you know, it's one thing to say something. It's another to observe body language too as well. So I think, you know, what's very important that you miss on when you are behind a screen and doing that, you know, and we understand people's jobs might be that too. Right. But you kind of miss those relational cues as well. That's quite important body language. And I find for me with a bit of a background in linguistics, being able to apply some of those theoretical components to my dating to actions and understanding that everything's fluid as well. It's not a one size fits all. And I think that's where if I think I've learned the most through my career is is understanding that every single individual comes with their own experiences, their own sort of view of the world. And you kind of have to adjust in some way your approach and strategy to get the outcome that you want. And it's not a conniving kind of way of getting an outcome, but you have to realize like in a work context to get the best out of individual for team environment, that you have to adjust your approach to get the best out of that individual, what works best for them to get the outcome. So for me, that has been the most enlightening fact that I've realized that There are certain times that even though it's not the approach that I would necessarily want to take to get the best outcome for our team outcome and for what the company needs, I have to treat that individual what makes them tick the best.
SPEAKER_00:So that's interesting because it kind of like there's a question that I'm kind of sitting with around is relational intelligence hinged on the self or the other? And you almost seem to be speaking to that. And it clearly is that it's actually both.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I
SPEAKER_01:just want to say this. I can't remember where it was, but Carl Jung says that you have to adapt to the situation, which means that you can come with an approach, but you shouldn't be so rigid in going like, well, I'm going to just go with that approach. You kind of have to see how it gets reciprocated and how you would have to necessarily adjust to get the best outcome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so the difference between being self-centered and I guess centered around the collective, which is everybody else that is also engaging with you, and also the environment. I'm thinking about like, I mean, I've worked in a hospital space before, and some people might see that as corporate, because even the health sector is a business. But I mean… I'm thinking about kind of how, like you say, there's also a team that exists within a team.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:And so like I remember being part of the psychiatric unit and so we had a core team or therapists and then we had the nursing team and then we had sort of the administrative team and all of this. And so all of these, we all exist within the same unit, right? And each one has… Their core is very different. Gotcha. You know, how they operate and that type of thing. And so to be aware of who you are speaking to.
SPEAKER_01:100%.
SPEAKER_00:Right? And what their mandate is. Yeah. Also what their environment is like within that core team. You know, and to be kind of aware. And so it really actually shows you, and this is a case again, for self-awareness.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And how these two link so beautifully. Yes. You know, that essentially if you are growing your self-awareness or awareness, it actually sets you up for relational intelligence. Yeah. You know, also another thing to mention is the foundation of relational intelligence is emotional intelligence.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:You know, so these three really link so really well and form such a big part of kind of I think what creates those environments and the feel and the energy in that space. You know what I mean? I'm sure you can relate to
SPEAKER_01:that. Definitely. I think about, you know, you, again, someone that has relational intelligence and emotional intelligence, because the one you need emotional intelligence that will foster relational intelligence. Yes. So if I look at someone that I've looked to as a mentor recently, I look at people that are in less prominent positions than him. He's the CEO. And I look at the way he engages with partners outside of our company. And there's one core thing that I see that he values. And that's respect for people irrespective of their titles and stuff. So if I were to walk into his office at any time, no matter how busy I am. And you know, CEO, they've got multiple things to worry about. I mean, things that they carry upon their shoulders. But he would literally turn to me. and give me his full attention because he realizes too, I guess, in some other way, and I'm just making this assumption, I'm not saying it is that, but he also understands he has a core team of people that needs to get the outcomes that he needs to acquire to. So in his role of being someone, the best version of he could be in a relational environment, like a team environment, to show up and be available to his team that makes up a core component of his outcomes, where I've seen people that may be on the lower spectrum of relational intelligence, They are people that they depend on a lot for their outcomes, but they have outbursts at them. They don't treat them that well. And, you know, again, we can go on this whole thing about, you know, are they more involved in kind of a self? Yeah. But what I'm saying is that these people are highly aware and they're very aware of which sort of interactions serve them well. Yeah. And what they gain from that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I suppose it depends on the kind of leader you are.
SPEAKER_01:Very true.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? Because that's going to influence how you approach people that are in sort of subordinate positions to you. And I mean, leadership, you know, as families, as communities as well, there are people that sit at the head of that, that are such a big part of creating the culture within that space, within the home, within the organization, within the country, right? And so, yeah, so a lot rides on the shoulders of the leadership and where they lead from, because there's this idea of, is this just an intellectual exercise that we engaged in, in the workspace? And I suppose some of what you, it's debatable, some of what you were mentioning earlier on around... does that then open you up? Because I'm thinking about, let me complete that thought. I'm thinking about bringing the heart on board, you know, because that's where, you know, emotional intelligence in some way also fits in, which is that we include the emotive aspect and the feeling aspect of the human being. We're not just looking at someone who works in corporate as this person who is thinking, thinking, thinking all the
SPEAKER_02:time.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They themselves are experiencing the day
SPEAKER_02:and
SPEAKER_00:the environment and you in different ways every day. There's something happening within them. They're not just thinking, they're feeling, they're sensing, right? So there's that aspect of it. And then as a leader, when you bring the heart on board, you know what I mean? And you bring that into kind of like... your leadership or you create a culture where that is acceptable. It's okay for us to bring that part of ourselves too. And I guess the point around the debating aspect is then when we bring that on board, we're opening a door to something different. So if we go just thinking of someone as a thinking person and the IQ only matters, we can stay detached from other parts of them as a human being. But when we bring that on board, we now open the door to other things. And I think it can make people nervous because what will the expectation be now? And I think to your point, what you were making earlier about, do people now expect me to constantly be the emotional sounding board? Are they always going to need more time off? Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Am I always going to have to be the one who counsels them? What are the parameters? What are the boundaries essentially? And so I think for years we've stayed in the position where the human being in the corporate environment or wherever else in the hospital ever was only seen as you come here, you do your job and it's a thinking exercise, but you're also now a feeling individual. And if I acknowledge you as that, it means I have to make space for that. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01:Complete sense. I think the role of a leader is, Whether you want to accept that or not in the site we live in, I think you're going to have to realize in some other way, you can't just be black and white anymore. Right. You know, you're going to have to realize that, I mean, you're there to serve, essentially. Yes. You know, you're there to serve because it's not just about surviving, it's about thriving. Yes. You know, you don't want to be in a space where I'm just coming to work to survive essentially my day and go home and be... Drawn out in like just this empty vessel game, giving the best at work to survive the day and then giving the least bits to my family. So, you know, what are some of the traits? So personally for me, I found that something I've been working on a lot that I find is bringing my core values to work as well. So wherever I am, I show up for my friends and for my family. I show the same core values at work. Okay. So, it does open yourself up a bit more than it would for traditionally what we see to show up. But essentially then again, what does your experience want to be as a human being? Do you want to lose? Because essentially you're spending more than half your day with individuals at work that you're actually just kind of being robotic and doing what you need to do to get outcomes you want. So I think there has to be an aspect of saying that, listen, yeah, being a traditional leader in today's time, is going to require heart.
SPEAKER_00:It is going to require heart, but it's not, I'm thinking about the fact that something, something that's glaring at me as we speak about this is that it's a choice to me. Like we talk about relational intelligence. And if I say to you, if my feedback to you is Lincoln work on relational intelligence, you know, that's suggestion, but you have to choose that,
SPEAKER_01:you
SPEAKER_00:know, cause you can say, but it works fine for me. the way that it has been going on because I get the outcomes I want. Why should I stop screaming at my subordinates or the people who work for me? It's a choice. It's a choice to actually enhance someone else's experience or to shift how they experience you and how you experience them. And so much like relationships, I know we don't think that we choose how to do them, but we are making a choice.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so, yes, we can argue and say there's a lot of unconscious and subconscious at play. Of course there is, which is why we do the work of making things conscious. Yeah. Right. But yeah, if I was advised and suggested, something was suggested to me, like, you know, work on your relational intelligence, that's choice because now I'm shifting how I relate.
SPEAKER_02:True.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? And it puts me in a very different position. It also means I've got to perhaps go into the self in a different way.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I acknowledge parts of myself that, you know, I didn't perform. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So, I mean, I completely agree with that. You know, we live in a society that's very performance-based. Yeah. So we assume when we come to work, everything is performance-based.
SPEAKER_04:There's
SPEAKER_01:contracted areas that we, you know, we have a discussion after the month, how's your performance the previous month? Yeah, yeah. And we kind of work through that. And then suddenly when you show a bit of heart and you say, listen, you know, I'm very happy with performance based in the contracted areas, but now we bring in a soft skill and we go like, I would just say with your interactions with individuals, just be mindful when you do something, how it could impact the next one, because we work in a team and to get the best team environment, we have to consider our teammates too. So it's not always something that lands that well on everyone. And I have to understand that that's okay. if there are people that are willing to, like I say, actually take on that responsibility of wanting to do the work, that's great. But if I've tried it once or twice and I see it, I'm not getting a response to one, I will retract a bit and use a different approach. Because you realize you can only make someone see what they're willing to see.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:You know, if the timing's not right and they haven't experienced what needs to happen in their own life before they can actually develop that skill, there's no way you can enforce it or push it ahead before it's time.
SPEAKER_00:100%. I mean, we're people of capacity. You either have the capacity for it or not. And then also, in addition to that, and maybe side by side, is that you're either open to growing that capacity or not. And essentially, that's what we're saying. It's different forms of it. But I mean, your response to that is it's relationally intelligent, but it's also… it also speaks to your emotional intelligence. You know, your ability, like a master, you've already mastered the ability to actually be responsive to people, not just from like an IQ. You know, you're able to perceive, which is all part of emotional intelligence, perceiving emotions, reasoning with it, understanding them, and then also managing them. So those are all, you know, the core tenets of emotional intelligence. Yeah. And so you can see why it's foundational to relational intelligence because I think in all of that is an awareness of self. Yeah. You know, where you're able to see, okay, this is what's happening for me. And if I'm getting a request that I find is completely like, you know, abysmal or like, you know, entitled from someone, I could, you know, have a response that's kind of really activated and charged. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that that's what I'm going to express.
SPEAKER_01:No, I completely agree. I mean, in a corporate setting, there are many times that the deadlines are just flowing and someone will walk in the most probably inappropriate time in terms of your deadline and say, I just want to ask you this question. Now, automatically, internally, I understand the struggles. But also how you respond to people. And I think the spirituality aspect comes in for me about being interruptible at times. I love that. The person that showed that character the most from a godly aspect, he was always interruptible, humility. So I think for me, I look at it and go like, again, what am I modeling to others? So as a leader... I have to be available to lead people to develop skills that are not necessarily just performance-based. And, you know, how am I doing in that part of things?
SPEAKER_00:That's actually so profound because it reminded me actually of, you know, in the Islamic tradition, our last prophet, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Yeah. You know, he was like the example of, you know, what sort of God revealed in the Quran. Yeah. And so he had to come and live it so we could see what that looks like. And there's actually a verse just on what you were saying that was revealed to him because of how he interacted with someone. And it was that interruptible aspect that I think is so beautiful because he was giving someone attention, which he thought needed his utmost attention. And I think it was, you know, people can correct me. I'm very open to that. I might not remember all the details correctly. And I don't want to sound blasphemous, but I mean, I think it might have been a blind man who had interrupted him. And he was kind of, not Kurt, because he was the most gentle human being, but he kind of had a reaction to the man that God didn't think was acceptable. And he revealed a verse based on that interaction. So that actually tells you how important it is to be interruptible.
SPEAKER_01:Do
SPEAKER_00:you know what I mean? Or to be open in those situations. Also, I would imagine to have the flexibility. Because you can't get to that point if you don't have this ability to be flexible. Yeah. to flow with interruptions.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely.
SPEAKER_00:So it just made me think about kind of why that's so important, that kind of profound experience. I
SPEAKER_01:completely, I love that. And it is never this perfect scenario. There are times that we have a little more energy to give to others and I understand boundaries are very important. It doesn't take away from boundaries. But I do think we have to also understand that as human beings, You know, you show compassion and kindness at times by being interruptible. Yes. And if you understand that someone else coming into that situation at that time may have not been shown those traits and you may restore their faith in humanity. So again, like I say, it's never a perfect mix. But I think as long as you can understand that what you model to others is is sometimes the only version of spirituality for God they see is through you, the human being. True. Because they might not have the exposure or might not go to a building or might not have the necessary knowledge of readings or done in their own knowledge. So if there's a curiosity on their side, like what does that look like? They go like, why is this person different from other individuals? And I think for me, as showing those character traits of being humanistic in a way is to say that, listen, I would like to understand That someone would go like, what is different about this individual that he shows up? So that to me is a core part of relational intelligence in a way because I don't feel that in this day and age we live in that people often show that much compassion and kindness. Or maybe the busyness of life takes away from that. So I think you mentioned something lovely. We were speaking outside earlier today. You were saying we all have this innate ability to be, I can't get the word now.
SPEAKER_00:Benevolent.
SPEAKER_01:Benevolent. Yes. So human beings, but in general. But because of circumstances and the busyness of life, it kind of like we don't really get to show that at times.
SPEAKER_00:We don't. And I'm also thinking about, which is something that I often kind of reflect on for myself, is that in the age of lots of conversations and lots of information, there's a lot of discussion on the concept of empathy and compassion. So there's a lot, and there's lots of books out there and it's the core of it. And I mean, it's at the, at the heart of like mindfulness and meditation as you're developing things where you can see the world more compassionately and you, you're really trying to kind of almost turn down the volume of the ego. Right. And so there's a lot of discussion around that. And, and, You know, there's, again, a lot of conceptual information. But I think what you're saying is that it's not happening in practice, which is interesting to me. Because I think we think because, you know, we think and therefore we are. I don't know if that was Descartes. I'm not sure if it was him, one of the philosophers. But, yeah, I'm thinking about how, again, these are all concepts that are discussed and we feel very elated and enlightened. Because we know it. We know this knowledge. But as something I often say to all of my clients is that it can either be head knowledge or it can be heart knowledge. It actually requires that knowledge to drop down further. And it has to drop into your heart and into your body. Otherwise, all it is is talk. And it's the reason, I think, maybe, part of the reason why there's so much talk but very little practice.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? Yeah, I like a lot of... be absorbed in yourself and your own world.
SPEAKER_01:I completely agree. Don't you feel that in a world we live in, that people are longing for those traits? Oh, absolutely. But it takes courage from someone to actually step out and show those character traits.
SPEAKER_00:And practice
SPEAKER_01:that. And practice that and other people start seeing it again. It almost gives them permission to also do the same. So I find that you're 100% right. We can read... the most amount of books, journal articles, and feel we have this head knowledge. But unless you actually practice and live it out, it actually just means nothing.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So your greatest intention doesn't mean anything unless it's shown to others. Absolutely. So I almost feel like if you're brave enough to step out and show courage and show those little acts of kindness and compassion and empathy to others, it kind of allows others to go like, wow, I love to see this. You know, maybe it'll take a bit of a step of courage from my side to do the same. And you kind of enable those in your circles to do that. I think in a way we all long for that.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely. And I think it's, you know, part of the reason why, like as you were reflecting on workplace culture has changed. is because people long to not just be seen as a number and as a position that they occupy and they have to execute all these different tasks, is that we want to be fully human. But also how are we fully human in these different areas in our lives with boundaries? And I think that's where perhaps it's a little bit sticky and difficult for people. But I mean, I think it's a beautiful thing. And so I think that perhaps in... in relation to the topic we're discussing is that perhaps that's what relational intelligence is. It's kind of like taking that conceptual knowledge and actually enacting
SPEAKER_01:it.
SPEAKER_00:So choosing to treat your employees differently or choosing to treat your coworkers differently or your children differently or your partner differently, whoever it is that you are engaging with, that you're making a choice to actually have this knowledge come down And it actually reflects in your behavior and in your being. Do you know what I mean? I know
SPEAKER_01:what you mean. It's actually a lot easier than we think.
SPEAKER_00:Is it?
SPEAKER_01:I
SPEAKER_00:think there are people that's going to disagree with you. So I would say this.
SPEAKER_01:If you are wondering what you should do to possibly show some compassion or kindness that comes naturally to you, think about at that situation how you would like to be treated yourself and then reenact that on someone else.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So that's interesting, and I get where you're coming from with regards to that, but I guess because what about someone who has no starting point for that? You know what I mean? What about someone who has no starting point because they treat themselves badly? You know what I mean? So it's a bit of a challenging thought, I guess, because in truth they are, and there are people that don't treat themselves well. They don't make... loving choices. They're very critical of themselves. And so maybe on your point, what you were saying is imagine what it would feel like if you were treated well and then, you know, apply that to other people. And if that feels good for you, could it feel good? You know, could it be something different to what you experience? And generally, you know, as a, just a rule of existence, all of us share The same, generally the same wants, needs, yearnings. We're not talking about the people on the extremes.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:But who are also human, but have a very different experience of the world. Yeah. So you can actually trust that if I want something for myself, 100% there's someone sitting next to me probably who wants the same thing. Yeah. Or similar.
SPEAKER_01:Similar, similar thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, as you wrap up the conversation about relational intelligence, is there any kind of final point that you would like to kind of touch on?
SPEAKER_00:I think that what's really important is in terms of kind of cultivating. I mean, I think that's always an important aspect, cultivating relational intelligence, is to first of all understand that there's an evolution to relationships. And there are things that, And also that relationships fit into, I think, these three categories that I often think of is a reason, a season, or a lifetime.
SPEAKER_01:Got you.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And so your reason for interacting with someone at work may be for work. Got you. That's a reason. There may be relationships that are seasonal. Sure. And so they may be in your life for a bit. Mm-hmm. and not, or they may come and go, that type of thing. And then there's lifetime relationships. And those are generally the ones we've actively chosen. That you are my friend and it's a lifetime connection.
SPEAKER_01:And we chat on the podcast right now.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_00:yeah, and my children are, and your wife is, and my siblings are, and that type of thing. And friends, of course, my amazing friends. But, and so... I think that to almost give the relationship its due based on that, because it really helps you to keep the boundary, which again we've said is a really important part of understanding and engaging with relational intelligence, is that there are boundaries needed. I'm not going to treat my closest the same as I'm going to treat my workplace, but I think to your point, is that there's nothing wrong with bringing those values along with you. It just means that you express them differently in those different places. Yeah, and so I think a couple of points just around cultivating relational intelligence is don't be afraid to bring your heart on board, right? Yes, we agree to that. So bring that in. Show up empathetically and compassionately. If you don't know what they are, figure that
SPEAKER_03:out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then I think really what's the core of relationships is build trust with people, right? So you have to be a trustworthy individual, you know, and you also have to be willing to place your trust in others and then connect, find ways to connect, you know,
SPEAKER_01:figure
SPEAKER_00:out how that is. And then also like, I think particularly if you are working in a working environment and you are in leadership, or parenting, you have a family, is create a healthy environment.
UNKNOWN:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Because I can tell you that you can have all the good intention of, you know, being a self-aware individual and really wanting to engage from a relational intelligence point of view. It's very hard to do that in a chaotic environment, when an environment where there isn't any kind of structure, where there isn't any boundaries.
SPEAKER_01:Very true.
SPEAKER_00:And so that plays such an important role in cultivating that.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Just a few things, and it's probably a little bit more to it, but I do find with relational intelligence that there are times that I don't necessarily have the amount of energy to interact with those particular situations. It's like, you know, what withdrawals and what deposits are happening and who I choose, like you were saying, seasons and reasons to be with people. But there are people that energize me. And like you're saying, you know, if there's little practices you can do, find those people. Find your crowd because they are so important in life to help you when there are withdrawals being made on other areas of your life, whether it's other family situations. So find those people in your life. And then also I must say that there are times that with more work that you do on yourself, I don't know if it's really relational self-awareness, but I find my comeback on things that I go through are quicker when I have self-awareness. So in the past, I'd ruminate longer on things where if I start creating more self-awareness and relational intelligence, I'm able to come back quicker, which is really great. It doesn't mean, someone explained this really great to me once, I'll never forget this. She says that doing this work, it's not never easy, never, never easy because you have to face it head on. But she says, consider it like this, consider it like, When you do the work, you're someone that practices a year before a marathon, you eat right and stuff. On the day of the marathon, you run the marathon, I have no doubt you're going to be dead tired. But your recovery is going to be so much better than someone that's done no practice, hasn't eaten properly for the year. So when you start doing these practices, you are able to recover quicker and learn these traits. And I love that because it was such, she says, it doesn't mean that you don't go through hard times. You don't have to face hard things, but your recovery time is quicker. And I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am sitting here wondering if we are painting a picture of relational intelligence and self-awareness is just kind of like being the shiny, happy place.
SPEAKER_01:You
SPEAKER_00:know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Because
SPEAKER_00:it's not that. It isn't that. But I do think what we are saying is that it does make it bearable.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? Yeah. It makes it bearable. You may even find meaning in it because this is how you choose to engage with it. But it doesn't mean that conflict goes away. And it doesn't mean that, you know, your disagreement with policies go away or how systems are run in the world. It just means that it makes it bearable. And you, I think, as an individual, you're rooted within yourself and you navigate from that place.
SPEAKER_01:Very true.
SPEAKER_00:not from a place that's dictated by external circumstances. So that's really what we're doing is that all of these concepts we discuss, it's really just to bring you back, first of all, to your humanity.
SPEAKER_01:Very true.
SPEAKER_00:And as a human being, there's so many different parts of you at play, and to acknowledge that that's how you engage with the world.
SPEAKER_01:Very true, and it's very fluid. It changes from time to time, and I think that's the important part as well.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:This has been fascinating. It has. Very good. And obviously, like this, we would ask you to stay tuned for more episodes on The Human Story. But until next time, from me, Lincoln.
SPEAKER_00:And from me, Sharla. We send you greetings and love. Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that was The Human Story brought to you by Yogd Media. Stay tuned for more on The Human Story.
UNKNOWN:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that was The Human Story brought to you by Yogd Media. Stay tuned for more on The Human Story.