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The Human Story
The Human Story podcast is brought to you by Yoked media hosted by Lincoln & Shaamiela. We love being human and we find the messiness of the Human Story fascinating. Come and join us for an unfiltered exploration of raw and deeply personal conversations. Through authentic storytelling, we dive into the complexities of life, our struggles, victories, and the profound moments that shape us. The series is about connection, resilience, and transformation, reminding us that while life may not be perfect, it can be beautiful. The Human Story is our invitation to listen deeply, reflect honestly, and recognise yourself in the shared experiences of others. These stories remind us that growth is possible, connection is powerful, and every journey no matter how imperfect is worth telling.
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The Human Story
Curiosity- The Courage To Be Curious
In this episode of The Human Story, we return to a theme that's both deeply personal and widely transformative: curiosity — not as a fleeting feeling, but as a practice of presence.
We explore how curiosity shapes our creativity, expands our empathy, and invites healing in the spaces where we feel most stuck — especially in our relationships. Through gentle conversation, the hosts reflect on how curiosity isn’t just a mental exercise, but an act of emotional courage. From parenting and partnership to navigating personal growth and defensiveness, this episode invites you to slow down and ask:
What if curiosity is the real key to connection?
Rooted in the Latin word cura — meaning "to cure" or "to heal" — curiosity becomes a lens for seeing others (and ourselves) with less judgment and more openness. Whether you're in a season of healing, rethinking your relationships, or simply trying to make sense of the world, this episode offers a warm space to ask better questions — not to fix, but to better understand.
Because maybe the most human thing we can do... is stay curious.
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all-encompassing human experience.
SPEAKER_02:This is brought to you by Yolk Media. All right, so welcome to another edition of the Human Story. Yeah, it's been some time. And glad to actually be here today. We spoke about this a bit off air, Shamil and I, but to get the time and the space to actually get together and record this podcast. I mean, it's not a session to tell you about that, but it's literally to say we're glad to be here.
SPEAKER_00:We are. We are. Welcome back.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's really good to be back. Show me today's topic is something that we've spoken about, we've touched on, I think, briefly as we started the podcast series. But I know that it's something that is very kind of a sought after, I don't want to say quality really, but it's something that really... Probably doesn't get thought of as much as we are adults. I think it really resonates a lot with kids and we see it. We can just see it by observing them. But, you know, from our relationships to our creativity and even the most intimate parts of our lives, curiosity holds the power to awaken, heal and expand us. Now, let's begin this journey by asking the simplest question and yet the most profound question. Why does curiosity matter?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so I'll start. There's a quote that I love. It says, curiosity is the catalyst for questioning and questioning is what propels us to seek out the unfamiliar and the unknown. But even more interesting, you know, I always get excited when I discover the root of words and the root for curiosity is Latin, comes from the Latin root. Yes. And the meaning is it's cura, meaning cure.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And healing.
UNKNOWN:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:which was fascinating because when we initially started our research around this topic, I think I just sort of like, just as a suggestion, wrote in the subject line, curiosity for creativity and healing. And so when I read that, I was like, oh my goodness, that's so profound. And it makes total sense to me because of how I understand healing, you know, and for people who are on or have been on a healing journey. I think you understand and you get why curiosity is so central to it, right? Because essentially curiosity to me is, it's a question.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's a quality that is, it has an active quality. It has an energizing quality. And what curiosity does is it creates movement.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right? So anything that moves you beyond a space that you're in is a curious thing. Yeah, so that's quite fascinating. I think we both are incredibly curious as people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I completely agree with you. In terms of curiosity, I mean, how does one ever know how curious you should be or how you are? I guess you get faced these questions when you do research too. And I think this has done that for me too. I've always considered myself to be quite a curious soul. And obviously knowing you for a long time, I would consider that to be yours too, you know, seeking for spirituality or questions and answers. I think that's testament to we ask people as well. But curious for me, if I look at a kind of a recent topic for me, if I look at my relationship with my son, done a lot of work recently, kind of reading as well. I recently bought a book about the conscious parents. I think it's Shivali Shibari Dr. Shivali Shibari yeah and I found the book I've just started reading it recently I find it fascinating with my own journey in terms of you know just finding that I always say like you know you can only be a parent as to what you were taught and learnt from the past and you know to find kind of realise that you that they have their own spirit and you kind of just there to kind of guide them through this journey and not actually control them really does inspire in a spurn your curiosity to go like, You know, one of those questions I need to ask myself that will literally kind of question some of my own thought patterns about parenting. So this is a practical example for me, how being curious has made me evolve in my relationship in terms of my son. And obviously for the better, I've seen the positive results of that. But I mean, I'm sure there's various aspects of your life and you can take it across all aspects of your life where being curious can be helpful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think, I mean, you're speaking about the relational aspect,
SPEAKER_02:you
SPEAKER_01:know. Yeah, I'm just thinking about how I think recently I had an experience with a couple. So in my practice, I work with couples as well. And so often you watch this sort of one display, right? And so, again, any form of healing, generally, if people are in couples therapy, there is some kind of healing that they seek.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Whether that's, they call it communication issues or, you know, there's wounding or trauma, whatever it is, you know, there's healing. And so essentially this is what I see and this is what I observe as well is that generally when we're kind of almost like stuck in our own story of what we believe is important and topical about what's being discussed, as well as what we believe about the other person and what they're doing and how they are portraying themselves or whatever it is, you see how curiosity goes out the window. You know, I watched that happen. And so I suppose as the person sitting on the outside, my curiosity then sort of, you model curiosity and try to encourage, can we just like pause for a moment there and listen to that? Can you get curious in this moment? Let's ask him or her what that means, that type of thing. But essentially part of why that happens is because we go into, you know, our defenses.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And anytime we're defending, we're not actually communicating, even though people think they are. And they're having conversations with each other. But when you're defending, you're essentially closed off. Right. And so there isn't any openness. And so curiosity is one of those. qualities that's associated with trait, which is a personality trait, openness. And so that's something to cultivate. And so when you watch that on display and you ask people to get curious, you often meet with a lot of resistance. And often because if I get curious, whatever it is that I feel is my point and that I feel needs to be made is going to get lost. You know what I mean? And we're going to kind of like, you know, give this other person the ear and the, you know, almost like there's a preference. But it's interesting to me because I often look at, you know, couples could come to me with an issue and then it's generally not the issue, right? It's the way that you and I, it's our dynamic, the dynamic that exists between us. And again, often there's a curiosity that's missing, right? Right. And not to say that people aren't curious about each other. It just becomes really hard. I
SPEAKER_02:know what you mean.
SPEAKER_01:In that moment when we feel we need to defend or we're not being heard by the other person. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, curiosity is, it's such a beautifully, it's an opening quality in relationships.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I love that because it takes me back again, bringing the relational aspect to bathing with my son every night. And there are times when just something triggers him. And then I try and relate to him or try and communicate to him, but I'm talking to the tantrum child. I'm not talking to the person that has a rational mind I can communicate with. So I'm trying to get my point across. We need to do this. We have to get this done, don't we? But he has no understanding. So I'm talking to the tantrum version of the child there at that stage.
SPEAKER_01:And that's like most of the version. How old is he? He's
SPEAKER_02:turning three next year. Turning three. So it just shows you. And I guess it doesn't mean that adults don't have tantrums too. You know, I've seen it in the corporate world play out quite often. And obviously, I mean, we put labels to it. You know, we can say someone's narcissistic and, you know, how do you become curious to actually deal with people like that? But I think it's the fact of going like, you know, I think we spoke about it often. You know, in a dynamic, you might relate to someone and you have a good relationship and you guys just seem to have a good understanding of each other. You try the same approach with someone else, it just doesn't work. And I guess that's the dynamic and fluidity of being a human being. I mean, we're not all the same. But it also makes you ask questions, you know, how can I possibly relate different? What could I possibly do different in the way that I relate to someone to get a different outcome? Because, I mean, I guess insanity is trying to do the same thing and trying to get a different outcome. So to me, for me particularly at this point in my life, I really like the curiosity of relational aspects because I feel that that's the core component of being a human being and And it's kind of like seasonal, you know, just because I've got a great relationship with someone right now doesn't mean that, you know, circumstances change, things happen, seasons, loss happens. So I guess it's kind of my relational aspect for me is about just being curious about the other person and how they view things.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And what I like about what is fundamental about human beings is that we are actually wired for curiosity.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's a biological component. It's in our DNA. It's the thing that really propels development, if you think about it. I think in the beginning you said about we see it. It's more on display with children. We see them get curious and get excited, and we actually watch them literally discover this world. And somewhere along the line, we don't, I think, prioritize that because we're such serious adults. But at the end of the day, even as those serious adults, I don't think we consciously acknowledge that we're still being curious in a different way.
SPEAKER_02:Got you.
SPEAKER_01:I think the, because curiosity has like, when we think about it, it has a fascinating quality. It has one that's inspiring, one that's filled with wonder and excitement. And so again, on display in children, you know, very, not very often with adults, depending on their persona, you know, the temperament. Yeah. But there's, There's something I think that is quite comforting. You know, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, well, I'm not an open individual and I don't know about that. It's something that you can cultivate because it exists within you. You know, you developed as an individual. You've evolved. You know, your life is not the same. There's been brain development. There's been physical development. So at the end of the day, you know, your curiosity is central to all of that, this development that happens for you. And so it's just literally about us tapping back into that and becoming more conscious of it. And again, any curiosity begins with a question.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right? Yeah. And generally it's, what if?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:How about? You know, imagine if.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's like, you know, this.
SPEAKER_02:Got you.
SPEAKER_01:It's, and again, we connect that to the creative process.
SPEAKER_02:I love that because I take it back to my own life and, Considering a couple of years back and kind of looking at some of the decisions and just wanting to understand the way that I see things and view things and get in my journey with therapy and the curiosity of wanting to understand who I am and why I do the things that I do. And that journey, going through that journey and reading about topics that interest to me. made me view and understand things beyond me just going, well, this is who I am and I accept it. And I think for me, that's been the greatest life lesson that I've learned. To be curious and go like, you know what? I may not like certain aspects of what I see playing out. The fact that I'm always so busy, I'm never present. I kind of just, I'm in autopilot mode, just kind of there in my relationship with people, but I'm not really engaging. And then how do I bring that back to kind of be more present? By reading. I mean, we have no excuse in Cape Town. I mean, now you know where we are in Cape Town. I mean, I know, Shamila, you enjoy hiking and being out in nature too. And I mean, I'm sure you'll touch on that. But I mean, these are great aspects for us to really get back in that creative space if we feel we don't know where to start.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Yeah, there's something so fundamentally human about this, you know, that we're wired for creativity. And that if you think about it, Every day you're creating a life by the choices that you make, right? And then there's creation and then there's also co-creation. This is a co-creation. You know, this podcast is a co-creation. This is you and I coming together and saying, let's create something, right? And so you're doing that in your relationships. You're doing that at work. You're doing that as a citizen of the world. Whatever contribution you're making, you know, every single day, it's in… An effort of creation.
SPEAKER_02:Got you. That's a great analogy there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so, so again, like how can we, I think on a daily basis, meet ourselves and meet others with curiosity? I mean, it's, yeah. And, and, and, and as you said, you know, going on that journey of starting therapy, anybody who started therapy knows that the challenge, I mean, the excitement as well as the challenge, that's the challenge. that's the paradox, is that curiosity. It's the fear of what I'll find, but also kind of, oh, now I know that, and that there can actually be joy in that and excitement.
SPEAKER_02:I just mentioned one small little aspect of the therapy part. I remember I mentioned to my therapist at one stage that I find struggling to– To change my shift mentally from work into a home space. And I love what she mentioned to me. And I was so curious about it. And I obviously had to try it. She said, you know, make conscious effort when you get home to remove your shoes, to leave that part of you at the door and walk in. Now, again, like, you know, to average person listening to the go like, but that's crazy. How could that actually make a difference? But I can guarantee you it's by being curious and understanding that your view of your way of looking at things is not the only way that exists in the world. Absolutely. And it actually drives you to something better. That's the wonderful part about it.
SPEAKER_01:It is. And so, again, it's that reflection for me on what, if you are engaged in healing, if it's something that, you know, you are curious about. So much of that is exactly what you've just said. It's someone making a suggestion because that's all it is. No one's forcing you to do anything. It's a suggestion and you can either kind of shut that down or you can say, let me give it a try. If you've tried everything else your way
SPEAKER_03:and
SPEAKER_01:it hasn't worked, then maybe invite in something different. And again, just give it a shot. There isn't any specific outcome there has to be. And so that's what I like about this idea of curiosity, but also this practice of curiosity is that essentially what we're saying is that We're exploring without judgment and no end goal.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So essentially that's what it is. And that is so central. Yeah, it's so central to mindfulness. It's so central to creating and establishing and cultivating a mindful lifestyle for yourself is that that's essentially what it is. It's like something popped up in my head. I'm not going to shut that down. There's a question that popped up in my head. What if I decided maybe I wanted to live in a different country? Where does that take me? So allowing that exploration to happen, no judgment, whatever comes up with that question, you allow it to play out and there's no end goal. It doesn't mean I have to do it. It just means I allow myself to just go
SPEAKER_02:there.
SPEAKER_01:Just go there.
SPEAKER_02:Got you.
SPEAKER_01:Right? So it's a simple practice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's a cognitive
SPEAKER_02:practice. Yeah. And that's where the creativity stems from.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. That's amazing. Exactly. And so, like, again, with healing, I often think about how if we're talking about, okay, you know, there's a behavior I want to shift or there's a practice I want to incorporate in my life or I want to spend more time on X, whatever that is. We are. We're asking you to, first of all, create space.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right? That's right. And that like runs through everything. It comes to the fact that you are allowing someone else in, you know, to make a suggestion. It's kind of saying, okay, I'm going to take on that suggestion. I'm going to work with myself. I'm going to ask myself these self-awareness questions. Right? That's going to draw me deeper and deeper. And wherever that takes me, I'm going to trust it. So curiosity, it just kind of sparks. It's this beautiful spark, but it's also the thing that kind of, it's a spark, but it also guides you. And as I was saying about mindfulness, I mean, the aspect of non-judgment is central to being able to just go, okay, I see what I'm observing. I'm just witnessing this. No conclusion drawn. We don't need to do anything with this. Just kind of let's see where this goes.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. You know, central, like I said, for me, any kind of interaction you have with the person, you can learn something from that. You know, I think when we think and we close off to actually learning new experiences and being curious about others and kind of seeing their point of view on life. So this week there's been a new colleague that started at the company and he moved down from Gauteng and, you know, I just thought, Maybe let me just take him for coffee and just kind of hear where he's come from and stuff. And we had a great catch up. But the conversation got past top top. And he opened up quite quickly about kind of more deeper topics, more personal. Is that the effect you have on people? It looks like it's. And I guess if you listen to this podcast, you're also probably curious. That's why you're listening. But it seems like, you know, he raised the question about, he said, you know, do you ever think about, have you ever suffered from insomnia? So I said, yeah, there have been times in my life for various reasons. And then he said, like, you know, he questions life. Why is he here? which was quite deep and I mean quite profound to share with a new colleague but I can't really say I haven't shared the same with you in the past when I met you so I guess I'm on the same kind of playing field as what he was but I think what is interesting to me is to realize that if you kind of listen to this and you're going but like I've also probably asked those questions before and I think that's the part about being curious is that it's okay like you're saying like to go down that and kind of ask those questions with no expectation no answers but the fact that you're allowing your mind to go down that direction.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And there's something about, again, this energy that's created between people when we engage with curiosity, right? And we get excited about what the other person's saying and where the conversation's going and what's unfolding within ourselves as we kind of are present, you know, in that experience.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm just thinking about a conversation I had a while ago with my therapist as well. And she, we were talking about fantasy, you know, and I was telling her about like what I felt was a judgment I experienced from someone many years ago around fantasy.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Because it's one of those things that's kind of like, it's almost discouraged, right?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And she was saying, okay, but let's think about what fantasy is. Like it engages the imagination.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And anything that's ever come into existence, where did it begin? It began in someone's imagination.
SPEAKER_02:That's definitely.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And so this creativity, this process, it began with you allowing your mind to just drift. You know, and so, yeah. And so fantasy is often seen as sort of a, it can be, if you're someone who fantasizes and I mean, psychologically, it's just one of those things that's analyzed to the hilt, but it's like, it's one of those things where there's often a negative connotation. It was like, oh, you're being fantastical. You're not allowed to blah, blah, blah. You need to rein yourself in that type of thing. But I mean, imagination, dreaming, yeah. Letting yourself just kind of go and wonder there.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, Shomla, can you imagine the poetry you would not have heard up to today, the songs being written?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I mean, can you only imagine?
SPEAKER_02:And on that topic, there was a song that I heard this morning when I was getting done to get to the podcast studio this morning.
SPEAKER_01:I
SPEAKER_02:don't know if you remember a group called Creed?
SPEAKER_01:I do. Yeah, late
SPEAKER_02:90s, early 2000s. I mean, that was my era. But there was a song, I don't know, I just became curious when I heard about it because obviously doing the research this past week, you know, and you talk about fantasy. I mean, just listen to these words. It's a song called High. It says, when dreaming, I'm guided to another world. Time and time again at sunrise, I fight to stay asleep because I don't want to leave the comfort of the place because there's a hunger, a longing to escape from the life I live when I'm awake. So let's go there. Let's make our escape. Come on, let's go there. Let's ask, can we stay? Wow. And he's basically saying as well, if you go further into song, he was saying that he wishes that his reality, his real world and his dream world are where he sees a place of just of love and the life that he imagines. could be unison in one all the time in Israel State. So again, like you were talking about fantastical worlds. And for me, it's about, like you're saying, where would we be if we didn't fantasize and have this imagination? And I mean, think about all these children's books and stuff, and like you were talking about kids early on. But I mean, that's the curiosity we need to drive life, I mean, essentially. I
SPEAKER_01:think so. And I think that we, I think again, like, you know, we kind of lose our access to our imagination. when we don't practice curiosity. And so that's actually a practice you can incorporate into your day, into your life, which is, you know, whatever pops up today, whatever conversation I'm going to have, whatever happens, I'm just going to get curious about it. That's right. Sorry, I'm also just thinking though, you know, so we've had this conversation so far, you know, very much sort of fitting with the way that it's spoken about in the wellness industry, you know, which is, as you know, has become a bit of a thing. And so I'm also just thinking about how sometimes there's actually no space for curiosity, right? So there's also that aspect to acknowledge is that because curiosity is associated with openness, right? Right. We also have to think about how every single person experiences themselves, their bodies, you know, what they come with, the kind of history they come with and all of that. And so, yeah, so this was something that came up with a woman I follow and she is literally a nervous system expert. Okay. And she was speaking about how it's such a kind of like a a vibrant encouragement. We go, get curious.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:You know, like get excited. Yeah. Like be, and I mean, I'm that person. Yeah. That's my client. So I'm like, that's amazing. Yeah. They're like, you know, they're staring at me like, what is wonderful about this? Yeah. This is awful. I don't want to hear anything more, but anyway, we, we carry on. And so, yeah. And so she was talking about how, Okay. Yeah. Right, and creating safety. And so for some people, you know, the experience in the world is very much one where they're constantly seeking that safety. And so when you say to someone who is in that state, whether they fight, flight, freeze, you know, had that type of response, we also have to acknowledge that safety. You know, they may not, not because they don't want to get curious, but they may not have a capacity to actually be as curious as you would hope that they could, you know, that type of thing. And so it's something that I've definitely also seen in my own work. And so I think it's part of the reason why I really believe so deeply in breath work as well, because it's obviously nervous system work, any kind of, work around that is going into the body and for the most part working somatically
SPEAKER_02:and
SPEAKER_01:trying to help the individual connect but also establish safety there and you know rewiring and that type of thing so that we can then build capacity for curiosity and openness and that type of thing but I think that That is something to acknowledge. And I don't want to have this conversation only based on kind of, okay, this is an amazing thing. We all need to go for it. Yes, we do. But there's something about that. So if we think about a nervous system that is either open or closed.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:So closed would mean rigid, tight, defended.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Right? And so, again, if that's my only sort of like focus and you come to me and you suggest curiosity.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:you know, I'm probably going to, you know, I'm probably not going to connect to that and understand why that's sort of a vital thing I should be practicing. And then obviously an open nervous system being one where the person does have openness, there's a flow, there isn't any constriction. And so I want us to just think about our life force, right? And that's really what the nervous system houses is this energy. And so whether you're talking about trauma or stuck emotion or a charge that you can't kind of regulate, that's all we're doing is we're doing work where we are allowing this sort of life force to move.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And so coming back to the beginning around, this is what curiosity does. It kind of sparks, but also obviously leads and guides and creates movement. And so what we are doing when we're doing somatic work or doing any kind of nervous system work is we're building capacity for someone to be able to engage more curiously. Right. And so that's important to note because I think that if you're in a relationship, if you're working with someone, whatever that is, is to sometimes to note that and it shows up in people's body language. Okay. It shows up in their thinking. Okay. You know, it shows up in what you would maybe describe as very rigid ways, you know, in their behavior, that type of thing. And so to just kind of, you also, as an encouragement, get curious, like how come that person responds that way? That
SPEAKER_03:way.
SPEAKER_01:You know, how come that's the reaction? It really kind of almost engages the compassionate side, the side that's sort of empathetic, that's, you know, wanting to actually connect with the individual. But I thought that was really important to mention. Yeah, and it's the reason why I believe in breathwork so much because I feel like, I mean, the breath is life force, right? And so the breath is helping you shift and move, right? Whatever it is that needs to move in the body, but it's also a very gentle way of doing that. It's not imposing. And what I love about breathwork as well is that we can shift, we can switch up the breath. We can charge it. We can make it slow. We can make you hold the breath. I can tell you to breathe deeper, faster, slower. And so whatever it is that the nervous system is in need of, there's kind of almost like this robust quality that it has, right? Yeah. So I think just to kind of also be aware when we're engaging with people, kind of where does that, you know, where do they, where does... Where does whatever's happening land for them? And how do they experience that in their body?
SPEAKER_02:It makes a lot of sense. I think it was another incident, again, referring to we were out playing somewhere. My son wasn't doing something I was asking him to do.
SPEAKER_01:Was he disobeying you?
SPEAKER_02:He was being a free spirit.
SPEAKER_01:Such a childlike thing, right?
SPEAKER_02:Such a childlike thing. How do they do that?
SPEAKER_01:I know.
SPEAKER_02:And I remember chatting to the therapist about it and she was saying that's exactly what you're saying. To be curious to understand how he's viewing for the very first time his experiences of things. With being an adult and we're saying like we were always told, no, you can't do this. No, you can't do it. So you kind of become a little bit boring in a way because you kind of were, you know, your curiosity was kind of like killed by the cats, if you put it. But yeah, so I think it's like you said, I love the fact that you mentioned just to be aware of the other individual and how they perceive things because, you know, I love the fact that you mentioned now about the nervous system. You know, we're all human beings, but we all wire differently. Absolutely. So, you know, how people respond to that is important. And not just kind of just to see a one kind of way of doing things. I think that's also very important.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's quite profound. I actually just had a memory of, I'm sure she won't mind me talking about it. Yeah. But I just had a memory of a breathwork session with a client. And so when we do breathwork and we do content, particularly conscious connected breathwork sessions, clients will often drop into alternate consciousness, more alternative state of consciousness. And so we often access sort of deep subconscious things, right? And it was profound because she had sort of this death experience, you know, where she saw herself in a grave.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it was profound because we were talking about it and she said, I think one of the questions she asked was, like, why did I need to die, you know, in this experience, right? And so it's interesting because I was like, okay, so what happens in death, you know? She's like, there's a transition. And so I was thinking about how it's actually an unveiling because, you know, whatever your belief is, if you believe in an afterlife or whatever it is that's beyond this world and this realm.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:you're only going to know once you cross over and once you transition. It's going to be revealed to us. For all of us, there's going to be this unveiling. And so it's connected to this experience, which happens, I think, for lots of people through different ways, people going to meditative states, whatever. And you can actually make it a practice where you engage in kind of like dying.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I often think about it more as engaging in, because obviously you're not physically dying, but you're experiencing a spiritual death.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And that you don't need to have this experience, right? You don't even need to be dying. You can actually just allow whatever to happen in your life because we know there are things, sometimes it's a crisis, whatever it is, it's transformative. But something's dying.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Something has to die in transformation. You look at any iteration of transformation within nature, something has to die for another thing to kind of be birthed or to live. And so, yeah, I mean, just think about my own experience. I think I posted a few weeks ago. It must have been like the end of October because that's when it happened for me seven years ago. Just like a sort of note that I put in my journal. When I experienced my first major spiritual death, I just remember writing on the post that I've died many times since then and I no longer fear it because now it's kind of like, oh, okay, this is the, as people would say, the pangs of death physically when you watch someone actually die and cross over to death. to the next realm. It's a similar kind of experience where I'm noticing cognitively what's happening, what's happening in my body. Sometimes it just comes as burnout for some of us, you know, that's how it presents itself. But this idea that, you know, there can be contentment in that. that I think you noticed within this person and that obviously created curiosity for you. Yeah, I love
SPEAKER_02:that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You know,
SPEAKER_02:just remind me because you actually just answered a question that I had a conversation with someone this week. How is it? I've got a family member that's going through transition work-wise and started his own business and he wanted to meet up for coffee and he mentioned that his son, well, his son, recently had a child with his partner and I think the baby is about probably under two and he said he dreamt that his son was holding the baby and he put his hand on his head and it was too hard and the baby passed away wow man he said it really bugged him so much you know he said that it bugged him so much that he actually had nightmares about it wow So what you're telling me now makes a lot of sense in terms of the space that he is in his life right now. But, you know, kind of a spiritual death in one, but awakening new. And like I think we spoke about a change and making space for the new, letting go of the old. But yeah, like I say, curiosity can be integrated in so many aspects of our life. There's actually no separation if you think about it. There is no separation. And I remember, again, I don't know the study, but it was a study done from birth. I think it's a study of probably 90 years duration. And they said, what is the one trait that can determine your happiness on this earth? And I mean, I think we're speaking about it right now.
SPEAKER_00:But
SPEAKER_02:it's curiosity. Because you're not just accepting things for how they are. You're kind of like, not that you're questioning, but you're interrogating what's happening around you. So, you know, you kind of like you want to see a different existence if you're more curious. Yes. And because of that, it kind of takes you into a different space that allows you to see different things.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I'm actually just thinking about this quote that kind of, yeah, on curiosity that I found this morning as I was doing some more reading that kind of made me stop and think about it. You know, it says, curiosity will conquer fear even more than bravery.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I saw that somewhere. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:That's by James.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I love that.
SPEAKER_01:And even now, as I said it, it makes me pause, you know, because bravery is revered. We go, ah, that person's brave, you know. And this quote is saying that, you know, your curiosity is going to conquer your fear more than your bravery will. I mean, I feel like they go hand in
SPEAKER_02:hand. I agree.
SPEAKER_01:Because I think we've spoken about the fact that in order to practice and also learn in line with what I was talking about, nervous system and healing, you've got to dig down for your courage and say, I'm going to practice some curiosity here. I'm going to see where this goes. But it's quite amazing actually to think about it in that way, that that's the thing that will conquer your fear. Because what are you doing? You're actually saying, I'm going to go there. I'm going to reach and delve into the unknown.
SPEAKER_02:Even though it scares me.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. I love that
SPEAKER_02:because in a work context, something I can relate to completely is I mean, you know me, my personality, but I don't like conflict generally. And it's been something that I've had to kind of learn that tough conversations are needed, unfortunately, in a workspace too. And boundaries, obviously, like set boundaries. And there's obviously, I mean, we speak about it often, you know, within a culture of an organization is a subculture, the unspoken that exists as well. And there's certain individuals that hold a certain amount of power and it's like, you know, if certain people kind of threaten that, people kind of generally lash out in a certain way, expected way, because it's just kind of known in the organization that individuals like that or whatever. But for me, part of my growth over the last two years has been curious to go, how can I engage that individual to get a different outcome? So when they've kind of like the, when the ego has kind of like said, you will do it that way and that's final, you kind of go like, you go back to them in a kind of unapologetic, you know, in a way that you're not antagonizing. But you say, listen, I get what you're saying, but, you know, have you perhaps considered this? Because then they can't hear it. And you go with the right intention when you do that. And then you see yourself like possibly people like having a different approach. Yeah. And then you go like, so that's why I can kind of relate to you saying the courage and the bravery aspect kind of being interrelated. But it's about going like, if I've seen this, the outcome for others when they've tried to do that are you brave enough to try a different approach to see if you get a different outcome so it's kind of been that approach to go like I'm not sure where this is going to go and not have an expectation but I can't accept what's been the norm
SPEAKER_01:yes yeah that no longer works
SPEAKER_02:that no longer works
SPEAKER_01:yeah and so my response is to actually say that no matter where this takes us but we've got to find a different way to engage with this
SPEAKER_02:got you
SPEAKER_01:you know and that again that takes courage right because It takes courage to, I think, to challenge the ego, you know, and to say, well, my way and, you know, and to say, this is what I believe. It's that sort of singular focus that we speak about. And I'm also just thinking about, as you say that, how I love the play between curiosity, creativity and healing. And it really made me think about kind of, you know, again, just the process of therapy. Right. Gotcha. Yeah. And once it's conscious, like you said, you can't un-hear things, can't un-see things either, even though we sometimes wish we could. For sure. You know, but there's something about that that just, yeah, I was thinking about sort of the interplay between curiosity, creativity and healing. I mean, how we're kind of encouraging people to engage with us, right? And how if... Generally, if someone's gone through a major shift and there's been a healing or there's been, as we talk somatically, there's been integration in the nervous system, those changes actually just happen. It's not cognitive. Got you. Right? Although it's, yeah. Yeah. The body actually just shifts things as it is. And you have this outcome. And so now- You may actually feel so. One of the things I noticed, and I have to say, as I say this, there's a part of me that's worried, but I noticed, because in the last year, let's say, in the last few years since I've certified as a breathwork practitioner, obviously a lot of the work we had to do ourselves semantically, and so I've experienced a lot of integration myself. In the last few months, I've noticed that I drink less coffee.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:which is kind of scary in a way.
SPEAKER_02:For me
SPEAKER_01:it is. Yeah, so that's exactly it. So my response is, so I'm noticing this, and my response is, but we love coffee. We're not, you know, my immediate kind of, the immediate judgment is coffee. No, no, no, no, no. We need to keep loving coffee. So obviously that's the part of me that's just so accustomed to generally in the morning, I probably will have about two coffees. I don't drink it throughout the day necessarily, but it's a thing. So I'm not saying I'm not drinking it, but I noticed this change. And so because I'm, you know, thankfully sort of a seasoned, curious individual, I go, okay, let's see what this is about. Sure. And yeah, and I had to acknowledge that I think there must have been, I ended last year and I was quite burnt out. And, you know, you are flooded with cortisol when you're stressed and you're burnt out. And so, you know, the nervous system needs time to actually just cope. heal from that, but also just regulate itself again. And that so much of this year has been about rest for me and actually truly embracing, understanding, and I think integrating, you know, rest for myself. And yeah, I no longer need that much coffee. And we know what coffee is used for,
SPEAKER_03:right?
SPEAKER_01:It's literally the thing that I need a Kick size in the morning. Now I use breath work more. I use energizing breathing more. I try to kind of go, okay, let's actually just go into a breath practice instead of using coffee. But there's this change happening and how the point I'm trying to make, this is long winded. So the point I'm trying to make is that there's the shift that happens. So now I need to fit this into my life. I need to kind of go, okay, this has changed me. Whatever this is, whatever integration has happened has changed me. And so that's what I think about the creativity is that whenever there's a shift that happens or there's integration in the nervous system, we have to accommodate that, right? The body's already done it for you, but now your lifestyle may be set up in a way that's not conducive to that new change. And so what do you need to do? You have to create something new. You have to... As you have evolved, you have to answer the call. You've got to meet your body there. You've got to meet this new, you know, emerging self and actually go, what do I need now? Yeah. And where do I make the shifts? And that's, whether that's with food, I mean, coffee's, you know, a big change. Whether that's with movement. I mean, I try not to say exercise anymore. Sure. Because I think people often just, yeah, some of us, we do need to exercise, but sometimes we just need, yeah, we need movement. Got you. Because that comes in different forms. And then also environment, that plays such a big role. Relationships, what am I surrounded by? But there's this aspect of, with that spark of curiosity, right, that maybe encouraged you to, you know, engage or ensue or, what's the word? Embark. Got you. On this journey that actually requires you to now engage make these different shifts in your life. I love that. And create something new for yourself. And that that's actually, I mean, an incredibly privileged experience to have.
SPEAKER_02:Of course. I remember reading one of the articles you shared with me, and it's just to touch on what you've been talking about. We tend to want to find distraction in our lives and not face the silence. Yes. And, you know, when I read it, I could kind of resonate with what it was saying. Like, you know, when you're driving a car, you always have to listen to the radio just to distract your mind. You know, can you sit with the feelings in silence? Like you're saying, do I need a TV on? Do I need to scroll my phone all the time? Do I feel because I need coffee? Because that's what my mind is telling me that I need to actually get going. But, you know, am I dynamic enough to understand that my body goes through changes and seasons? Yeah. And, you know, I love the fact that you said that, you know, that we can do different things that can ignite things in us. For me, I love coffee. Yeah, I do. I still do. I do love coffee. Sipping right now. I must admit, when I came into the podcast studio, I smelled that coffee. It took me to good places. It does. It does take you to good places. It's quite an experience. On the topic, just off topic quickly, I know that certain smells, I know my mom obviously doesn't live in Cape Town, but there's a certain perfume when I walk around in a mall and I smell that, it takes me straight back to her. So it's amazing how music and smells, aromas can actually do that, trigger that. And
SPEAKER_01:smells particularly being the strongest connected to music. memory is it what's the yeah and the
SPEAKER_02:nice part you mentioned about neural pathways yes is that aromas and stuff actually can create neural pathways new ones yeah so that forms the creativity aspect so because you're doing that you create a new neural pathways to engage in new activities or creativity so I really love that as well but With curiosity, Shamile, are there other practices? I know you spoke about in your life how important breathwork has been to kind of just re-evaluate some of the aspects that you've sat with and to see how it's really progressed in your life and helped you through seasons. But are there other common practices that people could possibly engage in that can really help to bring about curiosity? I
SPEAKER_01:think I'll go back to maybe at some point at the beginning when we spoke about remember that curiosity is a question.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Mostly that's what it is. It's an experience of a question. But I like what you're saying around, and I'm very much an advocate of this, is that to engage other parts of ourselves. Because this is often a cognitive process. I'm thinking a question. I'm thinking a thought. And then my mind kind of takes me on this journey. Engage your senses. Engage your smell. And whatever it is that wakes up your senses. And then get curious about your response to
SPEAKER_02:it. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think for me, as you said, like I spend a lot of time and I try to spend a lot of time in nature. The mountains literally call me. Yeah. I'm not kidding. And then I say, I'm coming. And then I go toward it. And so, yeah, so I spend a lot of time there. And so... When I'm out in nature, but it's not, I think, confined to being in nature. But obviously with nature, it heightens the sensory experience. And so I'm often mindful of kind of the smells and the colors and all of that kind of thing. But I think that that's a practice you can just do throughout your day. And so what I'll do is I'll just, even if I'm sitting in my lounge and I'm reading a book, which is what I like to do, I sit at the window and... You know, it's kind of, I try to sit, I'm busy reading, obviously, cognitive engagement, but I try to notice what I'm smelling while I'm having this experience. I try to, I look out at the sky and I notice that. Where's the sun? You know, what time of the day is it? Are there shadows on the wall? Noticing that type of thing. And with that practice, there's often sort of like it connects a lot to my gratitude.
SPEAKER_02:Got you. That's so interesting you say that. I'll bring it up now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So there's something about that, that just, again, that this curiosity sparks something. And so you can see that to me, it feels like a very spiritual quality.
SPEAKER_02:Got you. Got you.
SPEAKER_01:You know, that really almost engages us beyond just our physical experience. You know, I mean, we have souls.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And this soul has... the most incredible knowledge and an experience that you can't often put into words. And so when you're tapping into your sensory experience and you're just choosing presence in the moment, this is where the spark of curiosity can take you.
SPEAKER_02:I completely love it. I know it's obviously a topic we will get into another time, but coming back to kind of being present and kind of, you know, when you sit down and you savor your food to actually experience enjoy the sensories of what that means and the emotions it evokes within you. But I heard a talk recently about someone that was saying that a massive pandemic in the world that exists today, especially in educational systems, and they actually get the educators to read a book on this, is on anxiousness, how to curb it. The world is, I mean, you don't have to look far to see it. I mean, let's be honest. And we've spoken about this before. But I mean, the world is in a state of anxiousness, whether it's politically, whatever the case is. But I think what I loved about what he said about this is that there are ways that you can actually curb Thank you so much. It was a reminder to me to understand that I live in this world, so I understand exactly what he's saying because I see it all around me at work. I can see my relationships, how anxious people are, that they're not really engaging in my relationships with them at times. At times, I'm the perpetrator of that as well. So it's not just a one-way thing. But I think the part that I've realized most is that we need to actually make time to slow down. We always think if I get through my to-do list, I will get that space to have that time. But unless you're actively creating that space to set that time apart, you will never make that time. So a big kind of lesson for me, a reminder again, was to make the time to actually be grateful for the things that I have instead of grinding culture for possibly just wanting more on a hamster wheel. Again, gratitude has been like, it's been like in my face recently again, just going like, you know what? I've got so much to be grateful for. I woke up this morning. I have another day to come to this podcast with a friend.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. You
SPEAKER_02:know, I woke up and I've got a family that I love spending time with. So if you can't find... Things that just look at, you woke up this morning, you're breathing, you have a breath and that breath was given to you. So just be grateful and in the moment to actually enjoy life for what it is right now. And I think, like I said, gratitude for me is a very good practice to do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's such a, again, I'm so struck by how all of these things are so interlinked, you know, and how even just gratitude is so healing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it's actually a healing practice. It's the reason why people say list what you're grateful for. It's really healing. Curiosity is also part of the healing. And we all are doing this work, whether you're actively engaging in the process of healing or not. But, you know, your evolution as a human being is also very often, I mean… We're built in a way that we are always reaching for homeostasis. The body's like that. Nature is like that. It is a balance that we're seeking. And whether you reach for that through the wounding aspect that we speak about, and that often looks destructive and filled with crisis and chaos, or you make that conscious and you let the healing lead, and you engage with what's happening with you, All of these things, I think, just contribute to you, your human story. Very true. Right? And that you, yeah, I think that once you make that conscious and you curiously engage, you know, you may be more of an active author in your story. I
SPEAKER_02:love that. Take an agency of your own life.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I often think about that. I think about kind of what would I want to, you know, leave my daughters with. You know, it's this ability to write their story and to actively engage with their lives. You know, yeah, connection to themselves, connection to a higher power and that they are rooted and grounded in that.
SPEAKER_02:Chamale, it's been a fascinating conversation. So, yeah, just go about your day and ask yourself, what's the one thing to be curious about right now? And then follow that thread and see where it leads you. But like you were saying earlier, don't have an expectation. Just go where your mind takes you. I think that's the important part. So, yeah, like you were saying, part of the human journey is really to explore. And as long as you're all in.
SPEAKER_01:There we go. And I think even on the days when you're not all
SPEAKER_02:in,
SPEAKER_01:you know, I think there's no particular way curiosity takes. You know, sometimes the curiosity is actually just about… I feel this way, and I'm actually just going to see how this day goes. Yeah. You know? I agree. And that's good enough. That's really good enough, wherever you find yourself.
SPEAKER_02:So for me, I'll say stay curious, stay open, and as always, stay human. Myself, Lincoln. Until next time.
SPEAKER_01:And from me, Shamila, enjoy your curiosity. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that was The Human Story brought to you by Yolk Media. Stay tuned for more on The Human Story.
UNKNOWN:Let's go.