The Human Story
The Human Story podcast is brought to you by Yoked media hosted by Lincoln & Shaamiela. We love being human and we find the messiness of the Human Story fascinating. Come and join us for an unfiltered exploration of raw and deeply personal conversations. Through authentic storytelling, we dive into the complexities of life, our struggles, victories, and the profound moments that shape us. The series is about connection, resilience, and transformation, reminding us that while life may not be perfect, it can be beautiful. The Human Story is our invitation to listen deeply, reflect honestly, and recognise yourself in the shared experiences of others. These stories remind us that growth is possible, connection is powerful, and every journey no matter how imperfect is worth telling.
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The Human Story
Forgiveness- To Give Completely
In this episode of The Human Story Podcast, brought to you by Yoked Media, Lincoln and Shaamiela unpack forgiveness not as a simple act, but as a layered, deeply human process. From lighthearted moments to life’s heavier transgressions, the conversation moves through the real pursuit of what it means “to give completely.”
They explore the difference between acceptance and forgiveness, the emotional work behind both, and why true forgiveness is less about a single moment and more about a decision that unfolds over time.
Whether you’re holding on to hurt or trying to make peace with your own story, this episode invites you to slow down and reflect on what letting go might truly look like.
Stay tuned for Episode Two coming soon, where Lincoln and Shaamiela open up with personal reflections sharing their own journeys toward forgiveness and the lessons that reshaped how they see others and themselves.
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all-encompassing human experience.
SPEAKER_02:This is brought to you by Yocht Media.
SPEAKER_03:The only big thing is season two of the human story. Welcome back, Shamila.
SPEAKER_01:Hi, thanks. Wow. Great. Like we were having a chat before. We just, you know, hit record. And you said, oh my gosh, we're doing this again. So I'm very excited to be here. Thanks.
SPEAKER_03:And welcome back to you too. It's been it's been uh us telling Shamela, it's been almost 10 months. It feels like we've been in hibernation. Yes. Uh since our last recording. It just shows you what happens behind the scenes, not really knowing the time frames of how these scenes work.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:But what I will say is that it felt good coming back here today.
SPEAKER_00:It did. Season two.
SPEAKER_03:A lot of familiarity. And season two. And I think on that note, Shamil, I'd just like to just take a little bit of a step back on season one. Yes. You know, after the six episodes and some of the feedback that we've received, I've been overwhelmed by the positive feedback from, you know, from friends alike, colleagues, some on the platforms themselves, which is really, really kind of weird in a way. I don't know how to explain it. Absolutely again. It's like we actually do this. Yeah. But it's it's it's it's been it's been very liberating in a way, like you're saying, you know, I think you you said it early on. Actually realizing that that you and I have put something out there. I said to you, I think, in one of the episodes in season one, it's a very vulnerable space for me. Um and to realize that that we were willing to put that out into the world and receive whether it's a small community at this stage and and like-minded people, yeah, but it's it's really been it's been a good feeling.
SPEAKER_01:It has, and I totally resonate with that. And and I think I still don't feel like I found a word to describe what it's been like.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But exactly that, and I think I was saying to Lincoln earlier on that I will still have people come, I haven't seen them in a while, or a client who's popped up, maybe after months of not seeing me, will say, I listened to your episode on, you know, I don't know, relational intelligence or self-awareness. And then I kind of go into shock again and I go, Oh, you were. And and then, you know, they're eager to share their feedback, which has also been incredibly positive. And it's been a joy, it's been a real joy to listen to it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And again, it's somewhat surreal, you know, to experience that. And and I don't know about you, but I tend to get involved in things. So anything that I'm putting out into the world, whether I'm creating a workshop, doing a podcast, whatever. And when it's out there, uh, you know, life gets busy, but also um, I kind of move on from it, and then you're kind of drawn back to this, oh, okay, hey, your podcast's out there, and this is really what resonated with me. This really struck me. And then yeah, it's a great reminder. So it's been wonderful. It's really been wonderful, and I'm so grateful. And, you know, just an opportunity to say thank you to everybody who's been listening and for sharing, for being willing to share your feedback with us. It's really wonderful to hear that and to know that our intention has come through.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think um, Shamela, just something that came to mind. You know, I think for you and I both, I know it's it's quite something that that stands out for us doing community work in some other way. Yeah. And if you think about it, this in a in a sense is community work. Yeah, yeah. And we've benefited in the past from similar type of projects. Yes. So in a way, it's it's kind of us putting this out in the world and hopefully it'll touch, even if it's one person, yeah, and affecting your circles. Yeah. And so just on a personal note, I think if I look back and I've listened to some of the episodes again, because someone might have popped around and said, you know, Lincoln, you know, thank you. On this episode, I like this part about the episode. And, you know, Shamla mentioned this little nugget, which I really enjoyed. So it is nice getting that feedback. But I think if holistically for me, if I look back at season one, and I've always said to you that, you know, part of part of my therapy journey and and some of the some of the healing that I'm currently doing, I think part of the the the work that we've done, the research we've done for season one has helped me realize how far I've come. You know, we I think as human beings, we always worry about the next thing and how far we should be. Right. But if we don't take a step back and reflect and go, like, you know what, if I look back a year in my life at some of the things that I was struggling with, perhaps, or things that I wanted to, I know that I just wanted to do better in certain areas of my life, yeah, I've come a long way.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that's the important part to go like, you know, it's it's not about a situation, about the the human experience, because we're all flawed in some other way, but it's to go like, I'm doing better than I was yesterday. And I think that's what I want to say to listeners, like if you've come on board, you've listened to episode, and you go like, hey, I already resonated with that, and that's great. And in some other way, you've taken something from the episode and go, like, it's it's actually offered some kind of value back to me. Yeah. And I think that's what it's all about.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that. Such a beautiful reflection. And what's interesting is that what you've just reflected on seeing within yourself, I see within you.
SPEAKER_06:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I mean? Like I see that, and it's it's so obvious because you are so dedicated to self-work and to to growing as a person, that that's obvious to me. But there is something about us acknowledging that for ourselves that it feels like you're saying this evolution, you know, of where I want to be, and then the process of getting there. So maybe what's really wonderful about it is even for myself, listening back to the episodes. So what I did was when we released episodes on the day that we did, I would obviously be doing the social media posting.
SPEAKER_05:That's it.
SPEAKER_01:And you'd let me know, okay, we've posted, and then I would listen to it again because I wanted to be sort of alongside the listeners, you know, this is a new episode that's out, and just be sort of just vibrationally somehow aligned with that and be, okay, this is out in the world now. How am I hearing it now? And of course it's different, you know, and you think back about the time that we were in when we recorded the episodes where we were both at individually together as a team. And that's quite that's been a quite an interesting thing. And and it's it's I don't know if the word is proud. Like, I mean there is a pride, but I don't know if if that's necessarily the word. It actually just feels like such an alignment, you know what I mean? When I listen back to it and I and I I think about okay, this really was the intention. And I say that because when we when we are sitting here and talking, yeah, just a bit of like uh insight into the process, but maybe more my individual processes, it often feels like I'm rambling.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And it doesn't always feel like everything's coherent. But when we end the episode, him and I, Lincoln and I will often look at each other and go, was that all right? Yeah, that that sounded like it was good. Yeah. And then and then he'll send me the raw, you know, episode, and then I'll listen to it and I go, Oh wow, there's actually quite a bit of coherence here. So that's interesting, yeah, and that there's been so much integration, exactly like you say, of the information that we took in in order to put the episode out.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And how that changed us and made us kind of really have insights. Because again, to share something else is that before we hit record, we obviously often are having this long conversation.
SPEAKER_03:Which happened today.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And you know, and then we always like, oh, we should have recorded that. But there's I suppose maybe that's just unconsciously a process for us for you and I a kind of a reconnection after we haven't seen each other for a bit, and then we talk a little bit about the topic and we get excited together. Yeah. And then, you know, there we go.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I love I love that, Sami. If I just think about that reflection you've just shared with us and with everyone, it I think maybe a word that I was grappling to grasp was gratitude in a way, which relates to the topic we shall get to a bit later today, too, which is very kind of something to kind of aspire towards. But I'm grateful for the fact that our years of friendship we could embark on a project, obviously having similar values and morals, yeah, and what we would like to achieve and put something out into the world for the betterment of the world, yeah, essentially, that we were very much aligned and we still are very much aligned. Um, and then I must say too, with anything, it involves growth. You know, even you and I doing this content, coming to certain segues and game, like we might not always see 100% the same or certain things, yeah, but I think that's the that's the wonderful part about being human. Yes. The fact that we, you know, we're able to discuss the scenes and realize that like it's the yin and the yang that people have told us. Yeah. You know, and I've just loved that because essentially what it's done, it's taken our friendship to a deeper level, which has really been amazing. So because of this project, it's the it's the unexpected spin-offs that happen that are really that you're grateful for, you know. And the only way that you develop those deeper, meaningful relationships in life is if you get to segues and you have to jump another level to get to another level. And I've really, and that's been really wonderful for me to see. Yeah. And I must admit, people have come to me and say, like, you know, I just want to mention to you that that you and Shamala have a good chemistry. And it really comes across in the conversations, you know. The different points of view that you have on things is really great because you know, we we may have not thought about that, but like you can see that you guys have uh different worldviews, maybe on certain aspects, but it's so relevant in the way that it's shaped together, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah, I love that. That's so relational.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_01:But definitely the yin and the yang. I think I've always found that, but maybe that's also just uh been a part of our friendship.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That there's permission for us both. And and when we say that, yeah, what and I think one of my clients actually noticed it and she pointed that out. She said it's not the Lincoln is masculine and you are feminine, it's the flow between those energies that really makes it something different. Gotcha. And that there's an there's a there's a permission for that, you know, uh because of how we exist as individuals in the world, but also just that there is this I want to say synchronicity, I guess, that just naturally occurs.
SPEAKER_03:Unspoken understanding.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. So it naturally occurs, and there is no you don't have to force anything. You know, so yeah, so hopefully that's like I don't know, encouraging.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, definitely. I think for the most part that that is. And I think, you know, if I if I just look back at season one, I've had someone that I've shared quite a lot with on a personal level that shared some of a story with me. And she came to me one day and she said, you know, I just want you to realize, thank you for this podcast. You don't actually know how much it means to in this part of my life.
SPEAKER_06:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:So I think what we also have to realize is this content going out into the world and listeners listening, it hits you different spaces of your life and seasons of your life. So one episode one episode might resonate a lot more with you than another. Yes. But that's the that's the wonderful part about doing the series is that for some this will be so relevant.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And you know, maybe two years on the line, a current topic that we're discussing might become more relevant, depending on where you are in your season of of life and your human story. So that's been that's been really encouraging to know that like I think on some spiritual level these topics have chosen themselves and we've just been brought it to light.
SPEAKER_01:100%.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And it's interesting because I'm I'm just thinking about so Lincoln obviously does like the he he knows about how many downloads there are. I'm not sort of you know on that, and from time to time he gives me um feedback and apparently rest, topic rest has resonated very deeply. Yeah, and I think is the most listened to topic and has the most downloads. And and we were both going, oh, that's quite curious. What's that about? Yeah, you know. So I don't know, maybe if you want to, you know, and you listen to this episode, maybe comment for us and let us know why you think it's possible that rest resonates so deeply. I mean, I then obviously I think we were texting each other and I said, okay, it must mean people are all types of tired. It must mean that and that they're needing the rest. Yeah, but maybe let us know what your thoughts are. Why would why would rest as a topic resonate?
SPEAKER_03:I think we have our assumptions, um, Shabna, if we look back at it, it's like you're saying, people are all kinds of tired in this world we live in at the moment. Totally. And I think it's also for me, if I look at what's kind of playing out in the world and society at the moment, is that people are looking for spaces to rest, different spaces. I think we're overwhelmed with information and we discussed this in the podcast. So please go listen to the full podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, please do.
SPEAKER_03:But I think true what you're saying, I think people are just overwhelmed by the mass amounts of information available out there. Yeah. And they're looking for, they, they, they, they're looking for strings to to grapple onto for rest.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And it's such an important component of being a human being. Yes. I think someone commented on one of the the posts saying to us, we don't actually realize how important rest is when we don't even have it available to us anymore. And I think what she was speaking about is is because I actually know the individual, she was saying that in a space of burnout, yeah. And I know that. Yeah. Well, yeah. So I think she was referring like when you don't know that you have it available to you anymore because you don't know where to go to turn to anymore, that how important is to put that in place to ensure you don't reach that point.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, that's the absolutely. I mean, and absolutely would love to hear from people why why rest is is so and and I do think it is the different type forms of rest. But also I just want to, you know, go and listen to the episode as Lincoln said. But again, just to remind you that the amount of bombardment we experience, because that's the word, yeah, is not normal for your nervous system. And that's the simplest answer to why it is that we are so exhausted. We're not supposed to be plugged in in every facet of our being in the way that we are. Yeah. So it's also it's simple, but it's also a little bit complex. So go listen to the episode. But but yeah, hopefully you can simply disengage. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:One final comment, Shaman. Yes, and it's just for listeners to think about it. And I find it quite interesting. There was a gentleman on some deserted island. I I got no idea where it is in the world, but essentially what happened is he had to be like a caretaker of this island where it's only himself on this island, right? Wow.
SPEAKER_01:It was supposed to be No Man is an island, isn't that a saying? Yeah. But he was on an island.
SPEAKER_03:On an island, yeah. So he was essentially supposed to do this for two years. Okay. And guess what? He ended up staying for 33 years on this island in isolation on his own. And the question was put out to people, because I heard it on one of the radio stations. Yeah. Would you be able to live in isolation on an island for 33 years? And I found that quite interesting because for the most part of it, we'll feel that we need connection. Yes. And some people, depending where on your life stage or human journey, might feel that years of isolation is not a bad thing. Yeah. So I think it's just that to think about when you think about rest and you know what that means to people. But you know, some of us kind of need more isolation to be able to rest than others. Um, and some people feel connected around a community. So, you know, rest might look different. So they were saying, go listen to the episode.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so we can, so it can be even more of a most listened to topic.
SPEAKER_03:Shamla.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:On today's topic, when I reached out to Shamla for the first episode of season two, and I said to her, Shamla, what do you think about this topic? So I was I was awaiting some apprehension, I guess, in some way or other.
SPEAKER_01:You know, that's funny. I could actually feel that in the works because we were texting.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I was like, I wonder how she's gonna take to this asking this. But I want to say thankfully, because I'm not sure if if a lot of people thank us for bringing up this topic, maybe not now initially when you mention it. Yeah, I want to say that it is quite a deep topic.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_03:It is a deep topic.
SPEAKER_00:Deeper than we think.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, deeper than we think. There we go. That's very important that you mention there.
SPEAKER_00:Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. So on the topic of forgiveness, what comes to mind when you when you think about forgiveness? Now, I know there's there's a lighter version of this. People go, like, you know that individual that I borrowed my Tupperware to that hasn't sent it back home? So that's a lighter form of going, like, that's unforgiveness that I can't forgive that person or that person that came to my barbecue, if you're not from South Africa, Bri that brought a a pack of Buddha Works, like we'd say in South Africa sausage, but yet ate all my steak, ate all my good meat. So that kind of unforgiveness, yes, that is a form of it, but those are very sort of small transgressions. Yeah, forgiveness, inshallah, as a as a topic, um, like you say, it's got so many layers. So on the topic of forgiveness, Shamilla, where does one really start when when we speak about what is what is forgiveness and what does unforgiveness look like? So I think as a kind of maybe as a little bit of a definition, what is forgiveness?
SPEAKER_01:So generally, uh, you know, my my go-to is to go to the root of the word. Yeah. And so I had a look at the root. And so it comes from an old English, it's from Old English and it's for gif. It's interesting. For completely, yes, gif, to give.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And then it's also derived from the Latin pardonare.
SPEAKER_03:I like that.
SPEAKER_01:To give completely.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So that when I read that, that immediately made me pause. To give completely. Because immediately, immediately it puts you in a space of what it means to forgive.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I mean? Like immediately it made me go, whoa. It's actually not as it's not simplistic. And it's not a it's not a word that I think we should throw around.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's very nuanced.
SPEAKER_01:Very so yeah, so there we go. Welcome to the depth of this word and and the discussion of forgiveness. So, yeah, so when you did suggest the um the topic, aside from looking at the roots of the word, which came a little bit later, my instinct is always to go to where am I with that?
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:You know, where am I with that? Where have I experienced that? What has my experience been of that? I've certainly forgiven. I'm pretty sure I've been forgiven many times, yeah, and that that's been my experience. And so I don't know if there is a human being who walks the earth who hasn't had to experience forgiving. Yeah. And then, you know, needing someone's forgiveness. Yep. Because this this is it. This is part of the relational aspect of the human life and journey.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, forgiveness as uh as a process, it's it's it's interesting to me because we think it's it's a very simple act. Yes. Um and the fact that you're saying completely. Yeah. I think most of it would get stuck on that part of it.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So uh if we look at forgiveness in terms of like you're saying the layers, like and as a process or process, like some people would say. Yes, yes. I mean, where would where would one really start, Shamal, if you had to say forgiveness a as a as a process? Where does that actually take one?
SPEAKER_01:So so so yeah, so that's the I think the most important thing yeah is that forgiveness is a process, it's not a feeling. Sure. It's not a feeling that happens upon you, and you know you arrive at this feeling, yeah, and then you decide to forgive. So the other thing is that forgiveness is a decision.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So it's an act, right? So we're saying to give completely. Giving, as we know, is a verb. It's uh it's something that you're actually doing, it's an act and and it's a decision.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:You know, and that alone kind of just makes you wonder about the process of getting there. And so I would say what what I feel like is important to distinguish between though, yeah, as we discuss forgiveness as a process and not a feeling, is that underlying the the word forgiveness, because we can be stuck on the label, yeah. The process means that whatever emotion and feeling associated with whether you were wronged, hurt, or there was a loss, you're right, whatever that emotion, feeling associated with the incident or whatever happened, that's what you're processing. Okay. So before we even get to forgiveness and the decision to get there, there's a journey that you walk. And one of the differentiations I feel like is really important is the difference between acceptance and forgiveness. Yes. Accident brought up, gotcha, the emotions, all of the stuff that we'll talk about now. The emotions, the you know, the hurt, the pain, whatever that is associated with that. That's the I'm going to let this this burden go. Okay. The emotional release.
SPEAKER_03:Can I come in and ask the question to you then? So acceptance doesn't necessarily mean forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01:No. Okay. They're not the same thing. They do work really well synergistically together. Sure. And they're closely related to the process of forgiveness. Okay, okay. I think, right? Because I don't know, I feel like a lot of people can get to unacceptance where they go, I can't fight the reality of this. Gotcha. Right. And I think it also it it grants us the ability to let go of what was perhaps unrealistic expectations or current expectations. Because if something happened between you and someone you love, generally there was an expectation for them to perhaps behave differently. Yes, you know, or not say the things that they said to you. And, you know, the more you kind of go back and forth with yourself, we all do this in our weeds, right? And my daughter was actually saying this to me the other day. She's like, Why do I always find like think of the best things to say that I could have said after the fact? I was like, when that happens, she's like, no, dyspection is good. Yeah, it's like I was in the shower now and I was thinking about that. I was laughing. I was like, that happens to all of us. Yeah. So we all have these little arguments in our heads and these little, you know, panel discussions. We are every member of the panel.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, of course. So you know judge, jury, and executionist.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And then, yeah, so I think it's it's also about whatever the expectation was, that's the acceptance. Gotcha. So forgiveness would uh maybe be the next step then.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense to me. You know, I if I if I think about uh acceptance and forgiveness, I would really kind of say that I understand it in some way, because I've got a situation where I've been doing work myself on a situation, and I understand like the reality of a situation, accept it for what it is at this season of my life. Yes. I wouldn't say I was at that point a while ago. When I say a while ago, a couple of years back, but I looked at that and I go, right, I accept it for what it was, the reality thereof. The forgiveness part is the more fluid part for me, uh the emotional acceptance because on the one part I accept the situation that happened, but now the emotional part where I have to forg offer forgiveness almost in a way, that part is still a part that I am still grappling with at times. So it's not like the acceptance, I accepted reality for what it was, but the emotional the feelings that go along with that acceptance, I wouldn't say that at the time I was 100% there of complete forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01:So the emotional part is the part that's been longer than the actual acceptance part, if that makes sense, totally processing because it does, and I think I think your point is is driving home something really important that it takes time. And yeah, so what's interesting is in in in recent years I was I think from a personal experience, I started noticing how well I mean I I kind of noticed it for a while, but I I suppose when it's personal you you notice it more intensely. I started noticing how when there's an incident and something happens between you and another person, whoever's wrong, whoever's right, you know, because sometimes that's the whole big thing, like I was right and you were wrong. That's it. You know, and it's this power play that we get into. I started noticing how often the individual who has wronged someone sometimes thinks they can set the timeline. So when I say that, and also I want to in addition to that note the societal expectation. So as I say this, I'm aware that culturally we all have very different views on this. That's right, right? Also from a religious perspective, because forgiveness is often associated with religiosity. Yes. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I totally see the relevance, right? Because we also, if you believe in God or a higher power, you expect forgiveness from a higher power and God. And then we conflate that with human forgiveness and human, you know, non-forgiveness. And what's been interesting for me about kind of almost delving into this topic of forgiveness, and this has been in the last few years, is that so when the individual who's wronged you gets to a point where they've realized they're wrong, and they they may come and say, you know, I apologize, and whether they ask for forgiveness as well, because that's the other thing, you know, that we can get into is like, do you say I'm sorry, do you say forgive me? It's very interesting, anyway. Yeah, but but what I noticed is that then there's this expectation, and it may not be that that way with any any everybody who apologizes and who asks for forgiveness. There's this expectation that it it should be over now. And that you should be at that point where, you know, but I've asked you for forgiveness, so now your next step is to forgive me. And I want to say, no, that's not how that works.
SPEAKER_03:For those of you that didn't know that, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's not how that works, but there is this, and then also I must want to say parallel to that, people around, you know, if if you share family members or friends or stuff like that, they may know that okay, no, there's been a a step towards reconciliation or kind of some kind of repair.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And they'll go, you know, you must forgive. And I go, no, that's also now that not how that works.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And I want to bring that home to the fact that it's it's your individual process. 100%. Right. We're not I I don't know about you, Lincoln, but I I neither discourage or encourage it.
SPEAKER_03:I gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I absolutely see the power of forgiveness. Yes. I've lived it, I've experienced it, I've given it, and so I know it's transformative. But and most certainly in my work, I don't think I've ever said to someone, and you know, if you are listening and I have said this to you, correct me. You can put it in the comments if you want, but I I don't think I've ever said, like, oh, you know, you must forgive, because I I just have this understanding that it's such an organic process.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03:It makes complete sense. I just want to go back a bit to to those of you that have the the struggle of the doctrines of religiosity at times. I find I'm gonna use a perfect Perfect example for me now. Something that I've struggled with over the last couple of years on this topic of forgiveness with a with with a family member. Yeah. I found that because of my obviously I'm Christian. Yes, yes, yes. And we speak about forgiveness is a very real topic in in most religions. It's a very core component of religions.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:But it's it's it's it's tossing with this and and this this I don't know how to this friction about I feel obliged to forgive you because I I'm owed to my my father or someone the higher power, yet I am compelled to forgive you. Yes. So I completely get what you're saying. It makes complete sense to me. However, I've learned that there's a human biological component too.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So I've come to realize in my own healing that I don't think there's an expectation that forgiveness means, like you're saying, I can I can forgive in in some other manner, but it's in my own timeline.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:I can't be pressurized into feeling I need to forgive just to please someone. Yes. So you know, then it's this whole appeasement thing, and again, you you you actually you're not being kind to yourself in a way, because it's that people please a part of us where you feel like, well, you come into me now, I expect you to forgive me. So now it's on you to forgive me.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Because you say you supposedly, if you are a Christian or whatever your belief system is, so now that's the right thing to do. Yeah. No, but don't take a small component of something and make it a truth. Absolutely. So I think we have to realize that like Shamila was saying, it's it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a process that that is not as linear as we think it is. No, it's very convoluted in a way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I I absolutely like what you're saying because I I do absolutely get that, you know, as a Muslim, how can you not forget?
SPEAKER_06:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Forgive, sorry, and forget. Because you know, some people will have the audacity of saying you must forgive and forget. Then I'll be like, oh wow, no pressure there.
SPEAKER_06:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:So but and I get it. And I think again, you know, both of us being practicing in our religion, we do practice these things, and we of course give, you know, reverence to it.
SPEAKER_06:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:And but but we also at the same time acknowledge the human journey and also the human experience of this. And the human experiences conflicting emotions.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so processing something like anger. I'm just thinking about this is a beautiful quote in this article that by Bethany Webster. And she said, when fully felt, without a particular narrative or story, anger has a purity to it that is a straight line into truth. Wow. And that's really profound because I think uh oftentimes when we forgive, we're needing to let go of anger and resentment. That's generally the feeling associated with it. I mean, there could be variations, disappointment, you let me down, you abandoned me, you you you rejected me, whatever that is. But generally, we're needing to let go of anger and resentment. And this idea that we can spiritually bypass, because I think that's what happens when when you are told as a Christian, or I'm told as a Muslim, I need to do this, people are without intention, sure, often encouraging you to create some form of spiritual bypass. That's right. And ignoring that there's an emotional component, an emotional processing component that's still taking place for you.
SPEAKER_03:100%.
SPEAKER_01:And so this guilt, the guilt of like, well, you know, if you were a you know, a true servant of God, yeah, then you would you would forgive. Yeah. And there was, I was listening to a talk once, and this who was a scholar himself, and I loved what he said because it was so funny. I just laughed and I was like, right on.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because he said, Okay, so you're telling me, you know, if because the the line is always, if God can forgive. And so he's like, Well, how do you know that God is gonna forgive it? Yeah, you know, but you want to hold me to that standard. Like none of us actually know God's doings. You know what I mean? That's out of our hands, that is divine realm. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_03:Like a sovereignty that's beyond our own. There we go.
SPEAKER_01:There we go. Which is interesting because as I was reading about this, I was taken back to a book by Caroline Mace. Oh gosh, the title, the title is so beautiful, but it's oh, it's Defy Gravity.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And essentially, like she encourages you to explore living like a mystic.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I mean, that's high level of spirituality. Anyway, so essentially, yeah, she spoke about how even forgiveness has a component, according to her, gotcha, of something that's actually outside of the human.
SPEAKER_06:That's it.
SPEAKER_01:That you almost are inviting in divine intervention in some sort of way, that you can't often, with forgiveness being such a stretch for the human being in some cases, only rely on your human capacity.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That you have to stretch beyond that into the divine realm.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And actually call on that. And and I think that's quite profound.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. That's such a such a great analogy. I also think like if you think about the core component of being human and why we feel grievanced, is many times because of vulnerability. Yes. The skin we're in, it's fallible. It's yeah, and many often we walk into spaces where we don't know how to express the vulnerabilities of things. And I think large part of getting to a point of like grievances, whatever that is, you know, the grievance might be in your own interpretation there of what it may be. But like, I mean, no one's saying don't act on the emotion at times. Like if you drive in the highway and a guy drives in front of you, pull the finger if you need to for five seconds, but get over yourself. Right. You know, to drive after someone and go stop him at a mall and confront him at a mall, I mean, that's that's ludicrous. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you think about it, if you if you live in hindsight, if you go think about doing that, and obviously how brage people are, I mean, is that really the wisest thing to do? True. As as a as a as a as a smaller form of a grievance. And I mean, grievances they do get larger with times. I want to say, Shamal, I I read a very interesting article and I want to just sway slightly to the left with this. This guy, he is an expert. I can't get the name now, maybe if I get to it later, but I'll just mention what he mentioned. He says that he is this guy is an expert on the topic of forgiveness. And he says that many times we we what's the word I want to use? We cover up justice with revenge.
SPEAKER_01:That is a word.
SPEAKER_03:And he says, you know, what is interesting for him is give it a background, he was bullied as a young boy. And he almost got to a point where it was like mass destruction, where he literally got to a point where he wanted to confront his wrongdoers and literally do a mass murder and shoot them.
SPEAKER_06:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:He said, but in the instance where he stopped and they didn't actually know who he was, literally chased after them because of something they did to his family, they couldn't see it was when the lights were shining towards them. And at the time he opened the door, he pulled a gun, he said, but there was some divine thing that happened to him. He realized in five seconds' time, my life would not be the same as what it is now.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:And he said he's glad he had that revelation at that time. And he says, But what happened was is he was quite very good at writing and quite intellectual. He went around without having for forgiveness as being a bully. He became a lawyer, and he used the justice part of being a lawyer to actually just condone his acts of getting people because he felt like he was doing justice. So he says, and when he asked his psychologist friend in the DSM manual, like what are the traits of someone that has addiction? Like, how many fact I mean you would probably know more, I think than nine that would would define you as being addicted to saying, like, right? And he says, even though he changed the word from addiction to revenge, he was had eight out of the nine. Wow. So he realized that revenge is very strong for people that have been supposedly done wrong in your own doing or in your mind of something of being I'm thinking about the amount of space it takes up.
SPEAKER_01:Because if if we're comparing that to addiction, it's an obsession. Yeah. Essentially, right? So there's an OCD component to addiction, an obsessive compulsiveness, right? And if we're saying that that's how revenge lived within him, gotcha, then it makes total sense that it took up so much space, energy, and probably of his, you know, mental capacity. Sure. Thinking about it and then planning it, and then you know, as you say, divine intervention. But that wow, that's profound.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm c I mean, I'm gonna I'm not, I'm not we we don't uh promote political things, yeah. But I want to use what he I'm basically just verbatim saying what he said. And he's an American, yeah? Okay, so I've kind of feel more justified for saying this.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:He said, what happened in 9-11? Yes, when the twin tiles were were were bombed, he says, Well, what happened was America kind of in their justice of getting the right thing, they just went and took revenge and did exactly the same thing as what someone would say that, you know. So he says, We must be careful what we cover up as justice as actually being pure revenge to people.
SPEAKER_01:So that's an interesting idea because many years ago, my cousin's husband, who is a very he's a very popular scholar and teacher, I mean incredibly so, and he spoke about how he was talking about justice as a concept, and he was saying it's very difficult for human beings to exist on earth when they when they when they can't see justice being done.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so when we talk about the divine component, and I think part of what Caroline was speaking about, and and what's also kind of enlightened my own understanding of this topic, but also the experience of it, because it's such a visceral experience that you have as a human being, is that you do want to see justice done. And we want to see it done in our time.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, 100%.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, there's so much happening in the world, and I myself have said, like, I want to see justice done here now, you know?
SPEAKER_06:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think that's an appropriate form of anger or an appropriate form of upset, but still that's not in your hands.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Right? I mean, you could totally take it in your hands, like like you know, many people do, and and as that example that you made. But you know, the question's always gonna be kind of where does that leave you? You know? And it it it just it just made me think about this idea of of justice being the skills have to balance, essentially. Yes, because that's what it's about, the skills have to balance, and you know, he's ability to because what's profound about that is is the the transformation of his experience, and that's really the power of I think forgiveness is that it has a transformative component. And in previous episodes, you might have heard us speak about the the the point of power, you know, and the reason we have power is because of you know, because it's it creates transformation. That's it. And when you think about forgiveness or not forgiving, yeah, or you know, anger, whatever that is, whatever's happened, there's often like a like a helplessness that you feel, right? Because generally what you feel is that the power lays with the other person. You know, they carry this, whatever they've done to you, or whatever they've perpetrated toward you. Sure. They sit with the power. And so forgiveness is about reclaiming the power. I think one of the important things around the process of forgiveness, but also again, this timeline, you know, the connection of the individual coming to you and and saying, apologizing and asking for forgiveness. This idea that, you know, you don't prematurely forgive. Because, yeah, I mean, I've seen it before. I think, I think I'm I might have done that as well, you know, before, where you feel like you want to dismiss the experience or you want to say, you know, you kind of or sometimes even give into the pressure of needing to forgive the person. Gotcha. And what that looks like is always so interesting to me because I think, and well, not I think, I know, and I know we've heard this many times, that I think most people think that that looks like a continuous, continued relationship with a person in the same way.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha. Right.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that's that's that's that's always been something that's spoken about with with forgiveness.
SPEAKER_06:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, this idea that you you you on their timeline, you pressure yourself, you don't actually look at the emotional process, I think what you mentioned earlier, yeah, the difficulty of that and how much time that takes. And then essentially, like you subdue your process and you kind of get to a point where there's this pseudo-forgiveness.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And the thing is, is that as we know, with any form of genuine and authenticness, it will eventually like rear its head. Yes. If you haven't truly worked through reason your resentment or your anger towards someone, which may be very valid, like this idea that, you know, at some point when someone's victimized you or hurt you or said mean things to you that you feel like a victim and you feel helpless and you are in despair is completely valid.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's completely valid that you feel that way. You may need to actually like sit in that for a bit.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm thinking about an experience I actually I actually have, I'm in the midst of. So this is why it was interesting when Lincoln said, let's talk about forgiveness. Because I'm in the midst of processing something with someone, you know, there there was an incident. And I I mean, I at this point in my process, I'm not interested in the right and the wrong. Gotcha. I think I'm just so still so immersed in the emotional process, you know, of kind of like, you know, when you're sorting something. Yes, yeah. When it's all jumbled together and you're sorting and you're kind of like pulling those strings out, and you're placing things where they need to be, yeah. And naming all the feelings. So I'm still very sort of deeply in that process. So the charge of the incident is no longer there. I don't feel attached to what was said and what was done anymore. It sort of like floats in and out of my head from time to time, but there isn't the attachment to it is no longer there that it was in the beginning, which is why it's important to understand that when it immediately happens, it's so appropriate for you to have those feelings. Because I mean, I remember having a like a day or two of just this rumination of it like playing over and over in my head and reaching out to a friend and her and I were chatting, and she said, Well, that's normal. Let's just let it be, right? And then so even though it's no longer charged, and I I can honestly say I'm definitely not at forgiveness yet, you know, ideally so. Sure. So I but I'm somewhere in between.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And there is there is importance to that as well, where there's no longer this charge anymore, but I'm not necessarily at a place of forgiveness that I'm sort of in between. Gotcha. And what's interesting about that is as a former poor people pleaser, yeah, is that the the bypassing I would have done in the past would have been bypassing those feelings and this process of marination.
SPEAKER_06:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:You know, where I'm kind of like marinating in the in-between, I would have bypassed that so that I could smooth things over.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:So that the yeah, of course you do. You know, one of our common things we work through and and you know, I think process individually.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I'm in this in-between and understanding again for myself, because as you know, we revisit spaces many times in our lives. Understanding again the discomfort of that. Although, because I don't, I no longer have a tendency to people please like I did in the past, it's not as uncomfortable for me. Although, and again, I want to say I'm practiced in this, so it's not the same for everybody. But there is something about sitting with that and going, wow, a former me would have rushed and said, Oh, look, I've achieved this forgiveness. Like it's some kind of like accolade.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, like, oh, look how enlightened I am. Yes, exactly. Like I'm so enlightened, I got there so fast, guys. And you know, and I'm just that's not real.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, that's the pseudoness, that's the premature, that's the pre-empting of something that's not real. And I'd rather be present with this process and then have it be gotcha. Me getting to the forgiveness organically.
SPEAKER_03:Makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think of a recent situation, I say recent two years ago, something that happened in a space, something where I felt I supported individuals tremendously and assisting them with some of their struggles. And I think what happened is that I was also at fault in this relationship, many parts of it. And I can look back now, is that I never set clear boundaries about what I was willing to accept as acceptable behavior towards me.
SPEAKER_05:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Kind of like made it quite known that, you know, whenever that person needed a shoulder to cry and was available, it meant just jumping at any time just to kind of assist. And when this person did this transgression to me, I was highly, highly offended and ruminated for weeks on end, probably months on end. How could you do this to me? Do you know how much I gave to you? Um, don't you understand? Can't you see what I'm trying to show you? Don't you see the injustice you've done to me? And I think many of us do that at times, depending on what the grievance is.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly.
SPEAKER_03:But I think there was a in this whole process, like you're speaking of, Shamula, I got to the end of it to go like, you know what? I realize now, if in in retrospection, there was a lot of things that I contributed, number one, but secondly, that I realized that of those things are all your stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And once I looked at that individual as going like they didn't have the tools to know how to navigate a situation, and when at the time they involved me in a situation to because they weren't happy with something that I told them, maybe, and it it kind of really flipped its head and it created an ugly situation. It was them not really understanding how to manage their own emotions. So in some way I could find and then reason through and go, like, I understand, but it doesn't mean that I forgave the person and the relationship dynamic changed thereafter. We have a better relationship because I understand the the boundaries that I need to put in place now going forward. So in the past, I may have done things that are contributed in a way, yeah, but now I look back and go, what can I do in future to not ruminate on that, to actually empower myself not to get into similar situations. And we do understand that these things happen at random at times. Yes. But how can I ensure that I deal with this better, put things in place to change the dynamic relationship dynamic going forward? And that relationship for me has done a massive turn because I've asserted that I'm not gonna just be the people pleaser and be your doormat when you need me. So I I realized the important part that I needed to play with this relationship dynamic to change it going forward. So, you know, we can't really change the past. What's happened in the past is the past, right? But we have a big contribution to make what happens in the future and how we want that to look like. So that was just a something I wanted to share in terms of what you just shared now as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think there again, it it just points to the transformative power of first of all being present with your process. Yes. And then also how it's that from the quote, you know, it's the straight line to truth.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because the truth for you was okay, let me look at where I didn't set boundaries.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:How I treated myself.
SPEAKER_03:100%.
SPEAKER_01:Right? And then how this person then from that queue thought they could treat me. Yes. And that's the responsibility that we have. 100%. And so a part, a big part of starting to deal with forgiveness is taking responsibility. Are there parts that you are responsible for? I do want to say this very, very clearly though. There are definitely situations where you have no part in it. Yes. Definitely. Where you are completely the victim. True. Or you have been hurt, you know, and wronged. And we're not talking about situations like that because that's a very different process.
SPEAKER_06:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, you however you seek meaning in that, that's it. And I and again, we de we're talking about, as you said, the the level of the grievance, the intensity, whatever that is, it's so different.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I think that there's a it's the idea that you are that you're kind of like you remain in your integrity. You know what I mean? Until you get to that point. It's like you remain in your truth about that, that I'm still processing this. I I, you know, I may want to get to a point. And so that's it. I think with depending on the relationship or who the person is or the incident that happened, you may even get it, you know, be at a point where you can say, like, I want to get to a point, but I I want I can forgive you. And I want us to repair this, but I'm not there yet.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I love that. That's like the attention show, the intentionality of where you want to get to get to.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And then also, you may not want to get there. You know, you may not want to you may not even see a future for it.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:It may be something that's without, you know, it's not within your grasp, you can't actually see how this would transform. But just allowing yourself to follow the process. I mean, forgiveness is the ultimate liberator. True. If we if we're being honest, right? But it's only liberating if the the process is authentic.
SPEAKER_03:I agree, I agree.
SPEAKER_01:You know, and you've you've processed everything that comes with with whatever happened.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I um I love what I I now part of our research, I can't get to the name now, but basically this guy is also quite a forefather of this topic of forgiveness. And he speaks about, you know, he's got a friend that's a neuroscientist. Yes. And this guy does also spinal surgeries, and he was saying that many of his clients experience pain as well, right? But many of these clients also have a lot of unforgiveness too. Um, so the physical memory that our body holds too, too, unforgiveness. That's quite interesting. But he said the neuroscientist said he asked this, this guy's a psychologist, this guy that does the research, and he asked him, I've got many of my clients saying, How do they get to this point on forgiveness? Because they have these parents that treated them really crappy from six years old. Yep. And they are now 40 years old and they still can't get to a point where they can find forgiveness. And his answer is probably not what you'd expect, but it's maybe throws a different light to things. And he said, you know, at the end of the day, he can understand the justification for thinking that. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. But he says we also have to get out of our own heads as well at times. Yes. And realize like those people are now different people to number one, your parents.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Number two, you're not going to change that old person now. No matter what you do, whatever you want, it's not going to change the situation. Yeah. And stop shifting your blame to others to make the changes that you need to do.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's a it's quite kind of a more harsh thing. But I think what he's trying to say is like the past is the past. And he understands justified how you feel.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:But if you're going to ruminate until you're 75, you've given up a good life that could be lived because you're living in the past.
SPEAKER_01:Incredible. Absolutely. And it it makes me think about a couple of years ago when I was speaking to my cousin's husband. Yeah. He's, you know, very formidable and sort of well-known scholar in our community. And he spoke about how it's actually very difficult for human beings to exist on earth when they cannot see justice be fulfilled. And then, you know, there's human justice and divine justice, and there's a big difference between the two. But I think maybe that's that's what it is, is that a lot of us stay stuck there. Yes. Because we feel it wasn't justified. 100%. And there is truth in that. It probably wasn't justified. And you feel like the wasn't justice done for you, right? And and it it it kind of it makes sense why why you would be stuck there, but but I think that's where the difference between the acceptance and the forgiveness comes in. Yes. Is that you can accept that that was your reality. Gotcha. You know, forgiveness, as we know, is the decision and the next step. But this idea that, you know, the the the scales need to balance, but it needs to balance in a way that we believe it should. You know, and again, it's this is human justice, as in the human mind conceptualizes and comes up with kind of this is how it should be, and then I'll feel better. Because ultimately that's really what it is, which is why I keep, you know, pointing out the process, is that it's really about me wanting to feel some kind of peace, contentment with what occurred.
SPEAKER_06:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And and like a soothing of some sort. And so again, it it's not a this takes work, it's not a feeling that happens upon you.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:That just sort of like one day you wake up and oh my gosh, there's so much light. What I will say is that if you follow this process consciously and you actually engage with it, I think you can get an opening. There can be an opening, there can be many openings, and which may then indicate perhaps it's time to consider forgiving. Gotcha. Right? And I, you know, I've said many times before, I work with couples, and if you're in a relationship and you're married, I don't need to tell you that you are going to need to forgive many times. Yeah. Right? And ask for it many times. And just accept, please, fully now, that that's that's how it is. Yeah. And it it doesn't have to be a marriage, it can be any relationship of consequence to you. And so this sometimes is this is sometimes the impasse we we get to is that you're absolutely right. There was so much wrong done to you. This was not acceptable, you know, this individual maybe has apologized, maybe has not. Because that's the other element, is that we know, right? And we can sense when an apology is true.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:When I feel, and this is generally just a general rule, if you know, is that when you sense that someone can see how they've hurt you, generally you can move on.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Just, you know, generally, again, there's exceptions to this. But if you feel like there's been remorse, there's been regret, there's actually a like, wow, I hurt you. Gotcha. There's a deep resonance that happens for you, and you're actually able to move forward from that. Yes, gotcha. But when that doesn't happen, it hangs in the air. And it's so palpable sometimes. And so this is what I see is that we we name it and we say, okay, I feel like we're at an impulse now. And can we talk about forgiveness? Can we talk about is there space for this?
unknown:And
SPEAKER_01:And some people, you know, I mean I've had someone in the past say to me, absolutely not.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I will not.
SPEAKER_06:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Because it means that that's that it's okay. It's okay. Like they get a pass, right? Of course, as we now know from much of the theory that's been shared is that that's not what it means. It does doesn't mean that you forgive. Sorry, that you agree with it. But that you're willing to give something so that this can shift for you. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_03:Got you. Yeah. I love that reflection too. Another interesting sort of study that that I read about while doing the research, I mean, I'm assuming that our age classification of the podcast will be people either in relationships or married or whatever that status would be, but in some form of a relationship with another individual. And many times when you what you live with an individual over a number of years and you kind of pass the honeymoon stage, it doesn't take very long when you're married, when you live in close spaces. But I think what they were trying to say is that, you know, many times we we keep records of like debits and credits of what the other one does, and they can quickly pile up if you don't manage that very well in your head. But I think what is interesting is he said uh in his study they they got individuals, so people that showed gratitude and those that didn't, as couples. And he says the couples that that kind of did this exercise that showed gratitude. Okay, let's go to the opposite side first. The couples that didn't show much gratitude in terms of like, you know, they kept record of what the other one was doing, and there was always like, so tell me something good about your partner. Yeah, he's a is a he's a good person. Someone saying bad is like a World War III list of the bad things, right? Okay, but there was there seemed to be no compassion for your partner sitting across to you when something could particularly potentially be interpreted as hurtful, right? Yeah, okay. Um, so there was no sort of emotional kind of regulation to show like this is coming out of a you know, out of area of concern or like I'm trying to, you know, show something in a very respectful manner, right? So, but then the couples that show a lot of gratitude as individuals and as a couple, what happened was when they started speaking about some of the things that were positive and negative, when it was a more negative thing, the individual would then turn to their partner and say, Are you okay to speak about this? So the compassion components of showing, like, you know, as another human being individual on the other side, and I realize that this could impact you in what I'm saying, and I'm trying to show some kind of empathy and compassion to you at this time when I'm saying this. To have an awareness when you go out in the world with people too, yeah, you know, very often we are so caught up in our own worlds and thinking that we are the only one that goes through these transgressions. And I want to say what Shamilla said. You know, 95% of transgressions are everyday things that happen to everyone in the world. We all go through, you know, emotions and and unforgiveness at times. And there are 5% of people that that go through unimaginable things that you that you can't even imagine. Like, I mean, you know, very often we choose to but to be noble about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So we could go to a coffee shop and our coffee's not made exactly the same way, and we wait more than five minutes and we're very vocal about that. But yet on the other side of the world, there'll be people dying of hunger, starvation, 800 people. That do we make serious transgressions about that? Like that's an injustice.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I think we also realize that you know, life happens and there will be times that we ourselves will be the transgressor for people unknowingly at times. So also sometimes to show compassion to people, to realize that, you know, we're all walking this path, we're all flawed in some other way. And, you know, that we we speak about this often, Shaman and I, that essentially love is a very important characteristic or a quality to show other people. So I think what I'm what I'm trying to say is that you have to realize and have compassion to know that many people, the 95% of transgressions that happen are sometimes unbeknown to people. Sometimes I said something to you, as a toddler or as a child, I can tell you straight out, like, why did you do that to me? That hurt me. As adults, we do the same thing, but internally.
SPEAKER_01:From a relational perspective, forgiveness is, as we know, you know, the thing that that kind of helps us transform our relationships. Sometimes it shifts things. Sometimes that means that we spend time grieving the loss of how it used to be. Yeah. And sometimes we we grieve completely a loss because it can it can no longer be.
SPEAKER_03:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And that's absolutely okay.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:That there are relationships that have to end, and that's healthy for you and the individual. Or, you know, the other person may not even be able to acknowledge tonight.
SPEAKER_03:And that's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. So that's really important to mention. And also, I think you you brought it up earlier in your example is that forgiveness has to come with boundaries. In most instance instances, alongside forgiveness, you have to you have to do the work around deciding what your boundaries are.
SPEAKER_03:100%.
SPEAKER_01:And that's really important because it tempers expectation. I mean, as we know, so much of our fighting is about, you know, sometimes unseed, unmet expectation, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of sense. You know what I mean? A lot of sense.
SPEAKER_01:And so, and so I want you to consider that. I want you to consider that alongside the work of forgiveness, that you also look at yourself, take responsibility, and and hold the other person accountable, you know, to and and set the boundary. That's going to protect you. You know, it's not gonna be a deterrent for anything going wrong, because that's not how this works, but at least you've you've yeah, you've taken care of yourself in some way. Yeah, and then just to remind you that the the root of the word means that we give completely.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And complete your process of getting to a point where you may want to forgive. Gotcha. Or you may not. I honestly can say that if people choose not to forgive, as long as they've done the process, is what I would say. I have no judgment towards that. I can't know what that must mean for you.
SPEAKER_03:100%.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, it's I I guess again, it these are all suggestions and and and just ideas, and I guess inspiring you to get curious about it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No, I get it, I get it. Yeah. I mean, just one last quote to end on, and I'm sure you've heard it before. Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and thinking the other person's gonna die. Expecting the other person to die. Yes. And very often we we think that. Um you know, so again, like we said, they were all just you know, conversation to to stir a thought. Yes. Perhaps, you know, go down a certain path, create an opening, yeah, create space for it. Yeah, and certainly for myself, just doing the research, it's it's been emotionally taxing because it is just a last another point. Most transgressions, number one, family, second partner. So to give you an idea, we kind of touched on many of those, but but and these are situations you can't avoid. So you you're gonna find yourself in a situation where these transgressions are gonna happen, probably on a regular basis, probably some that are much less of a grievance than others. And again, like we said, we hold space for that too. But it's just like I said, it's just interesting. And I think for myself personally, I have really grown in this topic and have a much better understanding. And if it's only been a short space of time that Sean and I have done the research, imagine where you can get to by just putting the work in. Anyway, it was a fascinating discussion today.
SPEAKER_01:Indeed. Thank you for joining us, and we hope that you we've sparked some question or curiosity, and we look forward to having you join us next time.
SPEAKER_03:From Myself Lincoln, until next time.
SPEAKER_01:And from Ishamula sending you love and greetings.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that was the human story brought to you by Yoked Media. Stay tuned for more on the human story.