The Human Story
The Human Story podcast is brought to you by Yoked media hosted by Lincoln & Shaamiela. We love being human and we find the messiness of the Human Story fascinating. Come and join us for an unfiltered exploration of raw and deeply personal conversations. Through authentic storytelling, we dive into the complexities of life, our struggles, victories, and the profound moments that shape us. The series is about connection, resilience, and transformation, reminding us that while life may not be perfect, it can be beautiful. The Human Story is our invitation to listen deeply, reflect honestly, and recognise yourself in the shared experiences of others. These stories remind us that growth is possible, connection is powerful, and every journey no matter how imperfect is worth telling.
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The Human Story
Forgiveness- The Work Of Letting Go
In this episode of The Human Story Podcast, brought to you by Yoked Media, Lincoln & Shaamiela explore the second part of the conversation on forgiveness. The conversation moves from understanding to embodiment of the meaning “to give completely” to the lived work of letting go.
This is where theory meets the heart. Where acceptance and pain share the same space. And where forgiveness becomes something we practice, not just preach.
Through honest reflections and personal stories, we explore what it really takes to release resentment, confront the parts of ourselves that still ache, and make peace with what or who once broke us.
Forgiveness isn’t about erasing what happened. It’s about reclaiming your power, your peace, and your freedom.
We hope that something in this dialogue releases you, even slightly, from the captivity of unforgiveness and helps you find your own way back.
Listen to Part One first for context, then join us here as we continue the journey toward freedom.
You're listening to the Human Story Podcast, conversations on the all-encompassing human experience.
SPEAKER_04:This is brought to you by Yoke Media.
SPEAKER_06:Right, well, welcome back to the human story from a very different setting today. I'm sure get to you the sound quality as well, too. That's that's the whole part about being messy and human. Um, Shaman, on that note, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01:I'm doing great. It's like just off the sunset, and I've had a reasonably prize day, you know, which is it's got gold, gold for me in my life.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But it's been great. Yeah. And yours, how's your Saturday been?
SPEAKER_06:Awesome. It's been good. Just like, you know, typical Saturday. Little one that we got invited to a family day at the school, and we said it was quite a good thing just to go out and see kind of what he'll be like in his natural habitats, get to see different parts of his personality. And it was really nice engaging with parents, you know, just finding that you know, you're in a like-minded season, and some of the things that you kind of like you're worried about, um, you find that everyone's getting through similar things in this season of their life with small toddlers and stuff. So that was quite nice. I think sometimes we tend to live in isolation with our thoughts, and that's probably not a good thing at times. So it was actually quite a quite more rewarding than I thought it would be, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. Yeah, but I can't forget you, and particularly the aspect of you know, being having people around who can relate to the season that you're in, which is really I mean, that's literally how life works.
SPEAKER_06:100%.
SPEAKER_01:Some seasons are more challenging than others.
unknown:Yep.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, so but I mean, you've had exciting things happening uh late. I know we touched base uh not too long ago, but yeah, anything uh exciting you kind of recently just want to share with us?
SPEAKER_01:I have. I well, in the last two weeks, I was uh away on a Facebook learning retreat deep in the mountains outside of Cape Town. Amazing literally high and held by the mountains.
SPEAKER_06:Your favorite place, eh? Your happy place.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, absolutely like we go to the mountains to remember, and I absolutely remember. And it was just it was a really beautiful, immersive, profoundly connecting to you.
SPEAKER_05:Amazing.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, and like yeah, and like as you know, completions and endings are really beginning. Yeah, yeah, it was it was really incredible.
SPEAKER_06:Sounds incredible. How are you coping with coming back to normal reality in society again?
SPEAKER_01:I think I think ridiculous that I it took me a while actually to come back and learn your Philly with a large approach, and you know, we did deep work together as a community as well, and I think that's it. You missed the people that you were there with and very open-hearted time and safe. It took me a while, and but you know, I'm really grateful that I understand integration. And so I was just you know reminding myself that this is how this happens. And I really think just sometimes kind of expired with myself and just sort of feeling, you know, what was happening on the inside. And yeah, and then hopefully this can translate to my journal at some point.
SPEAKER_06:Of course, if we find the time.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly, exactly. I suppose it's also about making the time, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, being intentional about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:It's so amazing. I mean, I didn't realize it's you know that the number seven is like you say, it's uh it's the end of a cycle completion. Just interesting to note. I mean, we don't often speak about this, but it's it's so it's so crazy to me how our journeys are so aligned and how we have so much in common. Seven's actually my lucky number. So uh my house, I live in number seven, right? That's the number I'm living. Yeah. My wife and I dated for seven years before we got married. We've been married, we we've we've been married for seven years now, um, and we had particularly good things happening in this year as well. We started this podcast in this in this year, and and if I remember correctly, I've I've had the initial thought and the the pondering about this right about 2018 already. So it's amazing how this all has culminated. It's crazy, absolutely crazy.
SPEAKER_01:But I actually remember that too. Because I know that you and I often say, you know, well, this has been coming on for so long, but I do think it's around 2018.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That we might have first took it into the universe.
SPEAKER_06:That's m it's crazy how these things work. Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny. Be careful what you ask the universe because eventually it's gonna come knocking.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And then and then this is one of the things, it's like be ready. Yes, one of the things that that I that again are kind of this week has been reiterated to me. Yeah, just in my ponderings, it's kind of like be ready, prepare.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly. You know, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And also that whatever's coming, you know, in your life, there's some form of preparation, you know, and if you can be a conscious participant in that, then that's really I think uh progressive and really helpful for your purpose.
SPEAKER_06:No, I agree, I agree. So, Shaomi, yeah, I suppose they're probably wondering why are we doing this kind of recording? Well, I I let me just put it this way when Shamel and I recorded the first episode of Forgiveness, we we didn't anticipate that it would actually become two episodes. But because the conversation unfolded so much and it was so laid as we did the conversation, Shamel and I had a bit of a chat afterwards and I said to her, you know, what are your thoughts on possibly making it to two episodes? So I said to her, listen, why do we I know we're not gonna be able to get together and and record it in the in the in the studio, but why don't we just sort of hook up on a call, show that, you know, bring people along on the journey saying that this is what we anticipated to do the one episode, but it turned out to be obviously now into two episodes, but we have to find some kind of intro ready to intro episode two. So this is where we're at, and I'm kind of sitting in my car at the moment because that's probably the quietest space I'm gonna get right now. And yeah, so so this is where we're at, Shamie. Yeah, I mean, I just want I just want to say for for the first episode, I reached out to a friend of mine. For those of you who have listened to episode one, I've made the initial inquiry. Eventually I got the number from that individual that I'm gonna call about my journey asking for forgiveness. Shamely, you'll know what I'm talking about. If you don't know, go listen to episode one and they'll give you insight into episode two. But I will say, Shami, for me, this topic of forgiveness. Wow, it's it's just been all around me since we've done the episode and things that have been kind of just kind of happening in society, especially this past week two that I've seen. I'm not sure if you're aware of this whole bullying incident and and how people were doing random acts of marketing, just jumping on board and adding their voice to it, and that's fine, that's all good. But I think what it did show me, Sharmilla, and I'm not gonna say too much about it, because I what I will say is similar to the topic of forgiveness, I think there's a time when things have to unfold organically and let things happen and authorities deal with things at times, and everyone can have an opinion about it. But the I've seen a lot of things unpack online and people jumping to conclusions, which has actually caused a lot of harm to people involved in this whole thing. So I I want to say with a topic of forgiveness, similar to to kind of wanting to for fast forward the process or the process, that one should be mindful that it's that it's organic thing, that it happens over time to and one must allow that to to get to to where you need to get to, the rawness of it. So yeah, that that's kind of just been my experience of late after we've done the first episode, Shammy.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, that's an incredible reflection, I think. Absolutely. And I think you know, you point to the process of the unfolding, yeah. Where there's an incident and then a process. And and I do, I think that's the world we live in now, is that you know, we live in a world where people think of opinion counts as fact. You know, yeah, unfortunately that's really not true. Yeah, and it really makes me think about one of my favorite quotes actually by Father Quillow, which is the world of change by your example, not your opinion.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and you know, and so like the frequentization we need to do. Um and because and I think because of the discussions we've had around forgiveness and if we will continue to have with this epithet well, this part of the epithet is that you may think that you have the full story. Yes, you really don't, you know, you really don't. You can be convinced that you do. And I've certainly been, you know, at the theater that many times with people have a feeling, you know, and I'm sure you have to and and and I think to be witnessed to that, you know, uh to be witness to how that can also break down connections and relationships when you know you come in with an assumption. And so yeah, and so I'm reminded again that you know you'll never regret asking for clarification. You'll never regret it, but you can regret your assumption.
SPEAKER_05:Of course.
SPEAKER_01:So that's something to you know, that's something to contemplate again, particularly relationally.
SPEAKER_06:100%. You know, that's such a great reflection.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So I mean, Shami, I mean, episode two, just to give people a bit of a foretaste, it is something for me, it's more about the work of letting go. So, you know, the first episode was kind of just more discussing the the process, but the second part to me, it it got it got really to a point like you know, what is some of the work that one needs to do of letting go? Now, I particularly was pondering on a on a certain moment in the episode. I think we had a bit of a discussion about it. For me personally, I had quite a bit of a breakthrough on this topic, and I'm so grateful for it because even since the episode we've obviously posted the first episode of forgiveness, it's still kind of continuing. But I'm so grateful that I had that moment and I could share it and hopefully it impacts someone as well, and they can take you know, take something from that to realize that it that it is it is a journey, and it really is a journey, and embracing and embracing that's that that whole process too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, definitely I think the second part of this discussion, uh you know, we we we go just a little bit deeper, yeah. Uh which is you know very normal on the fourth course, I mean I know. Um and and yeah, and I think maybe you and I get a little bit more personal around our experience of it. Yeah, and the share the human, the truly human experience the first, you know, of the human. Because I've had yeah, I've had one or two people comment, you know, when I posted things, they've seen various ones in words of like, oh my, aren't we getting serious?
SPEAKER_00:It's so funny to me.
SPEAKER_01:Because yeah, because it's it just shows you, you know, that it's it's a it's a big word, although it's so often used just sort of in a non-nuanced way, but also in a way that's very casual, you know. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, no, that's been my experience too. I've kind of kind of kept an eye on the platforms and people's comments. A couple of comments exit through, you know, powerful topic. Thank you for bringing this up. Someone else saying they they will look at forgiveness and acceptance in a different light now, because there's someone that obviously, you know, is a the religiosity part of things, they do get stuck on that at times. So that was really great, you know, that the intention behind the topic actually resonated with many people. And again, you know, if it can if it can give you a different light or an opening and to see things a bit differently, I think that's what it's about, just to just to stir, you know, a different thought about something. So on all accounts, it seems like that serious topic has done its sort of job on episode one. We trust that episode two, it would kind of you know lead you in a different direction and some of the work of that, what that entails. But Joshua, as a final forward, I don't know what you would like to just add for for episode two.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think I want to say we can we can either criticize or be hard on ourselves, you know, through the process, or we can be a loving and kind voice to ourselves as we grapple with this very deeply human experience of considering forgiveness.
SPEAKER_05:You know, very true.
SPEAKER_01:So, yeah, so I just want to remind people that it's uh the loving and kind and compassionate towards self is usually what makes it easier. And I hope that you can be easy with yourself.
SPEAKER_06:I hope so too. So yes, part two of forgiveness. Um, let's pick up on where we left off. Uh Carl Jung says this you know, we might not verbalize it, but we we kill people off in our minds through daily interactions, and sometimes people are not even aware of it. No, I think we have to be aware of that too. Sometimes it's the way that we process because it's a cognitive process. Yes, yes, and sometimes it's our own perceived injustices as well. So that's why it's such a layer thing you're speaking about here.
SPEAKER_02:It is.
SPEAKER_06:So it's want to be aware as well. Like, you know, sometimes we have to have compassion as well at times to realize that people don't always knownly go out in the world to transgress and to do harm to others too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Oh my word, I love that. And I think you you mentioning, you know, the one of the steps, I guess, or maybe one of the yeah, maybe a step in terms of the process of forgiveness, which is to you have to extend yourself beyond the borders of of you.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:And start kind of looking at the other individual's experience in this, right? And again, we're differentiating between where you had no responsibility in it versus where you do. And often that's the thing that could that that could get you to that place and get you to that opening, you know, where we suggest forgiveness is that we start empathizing with their position, even if it's little.
SPEAKER_06:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:You know, and having compassion for whether that's the individual's way of thinking, their capacity, their, again, their context and their circumstances where they find themselves, like why would they have behaved that way in that moment? What influenced that? Again, this is not excuses. Yes, I don't know. We're not excusing someone's behavior. We're just going like, what would I want in return? You know, if if the if the roles were reversed, would I want someone to look at me through compassionate eyes? Gotcha. And actually say, perhaps this was happening. And then, of course, do an inquiry.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, sometimes the path of forgiveness means many different conversations with a person. And saying, like, you know what, when you see this and when that happened, is this what you meant? And there's an inquiry there, but but I think you you mentioned it earlier that that that that comes with great vulnerability.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Because what we are asking you then to do is open yourself up to the person who hurt you. Yeah. And so again, we can see yeah that this sometimes is beyond the human reach.
SPEAKER_06:100%.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And we we're reaching into something that may be more divine, or or if it if it's not divine to you, something outside of yourself.
SPEAKER_05:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:But this is the stretch that's necessary for transformation. It's also the stretch that's necessary for you know, I think for love to prevail.
SPEAKER_05:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:Like what you were saying, right? For for us to touch that again and for us to to reconnect to what was the thing that made us say we're gonna do this together.
SPEAKER_05:That's it.
SPEAKER_02:Whether that's a friend, a colleague, I love that, you know, your husband or your wife or your partner.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Is that like, can we get can we get back there again? And not back there in a way that let's forget all the things. Yeah, let's actually allow whatever's happened to be sort of like a fertilizer.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:So that it shifts something. And so that feels important as well, is that we're not. I was reading about this in Anna Dear Judith's book, and she was speaking about like how, you know, before we get to forgiveness, often we have to grieve. Yes. You know, and and sometimes that means I'm grieving the loss of the way a relationship was before.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:Or the way I knew someone before, or the way things were before, you know, maybe my circumstances and my environment has changed. And so if we can see that again, this is the emotional process beneath the forgiveness that we we need to kind of delve into, is that, you know, if I if I give myself the space to actually grieve, I can get to that opening.
SPEAKER_06:That's it. I love that. I love that shot.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because it's it's again, there's this reclamation of something.
SPEAKER_06:You know, I um want to share a personal story. So there's been a a family member for a number of years that I have kind of um really struggled to get a point of of ultimate forgiveness. And, you know, I feel in many ways it's robbed me of a lot of joyful experiences because I ruminate on the negative. And I think sometimes it allows certain situations to happen in your life before you ultimately deal with something because you realize you have the power to change it at that juncture. And for me that was parenthood, becoming a dad. And I think for me a lot of it was with this family member kind of like could they not see what had transpired impacted me in such a way that I found it very hard to forgive them what happened. And I think also the what I realized in in going through my healing also I had a part to play where I went like this individual uh holds the capacity to understand what they've done only to a certain level because they themselves were a subject of a family dynamic of generational things that they were not exposed to and did not have the means to to be able to show those emotions. In my version of that, I wanted someone to be a version of what I wanted them to look like. And it's unfair because how can I make someone act the way that I want them to act like, right? So I think as part of that, I I realized in my journey of my healing with this individual is that I saw this individual exactly for who they were and their limitations, not wanting to change them for who I wanted them to be. And once I accepted that, I could change my relationship dynamic and how I engage with them.
SPEAKER_02:That's such a profound truth. Sure. And the power of giving yourself to the process. That's really not easy. You know.
SPEAKER_06:And it's it's been amazing because if I think about it, it's it's allowed me the ability to to change the generations you're after. So I if I look at it now, I'm so grateful that I've been given two sons to be given the opportunity to make a difference. Nothing that in its own is its own divinity. And it comes with some sense of responsibility, but it's enough to know that it's not just about me anymore, the individual, and about the transgression that I feel towards someone that didn't necessarily know how to do that. But I now have some tools and understand that I can be a very active part and I can change the trajectory of how I would want my sons to live.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Absolutely. I mean, how absolutely beautiful. And as you were saying that, I just, you know, deeply, it deeply resonated with me because I feel almost the exact same thing about having two daughters. Yep. And I I was just so struck by how you are such a clear mirror to me, which obviously is why we we've been friends and like stuck it out together for so long. But how you're such a clear mirror to me, because that's the same gratitude I feel, you know, in my own journey of forgiving and forgiving my parents. And I think it's it's it's exactly as you say, you cannot understand that until you're in the possession of that power and that authority over this human being who comes into this world with no clue. Yeah. They're so clueless. And everything you do impacts them.
SPEAKER_05:For sure.
SPEAKER_02:You know, and then we get to do it consciously. Wow. And that's the gift that I'm hearing you you share is that although this is harrowing and it's difficult for us, you know, to let that go. And I think grief for the little us, yeah, you know, I think I myself in my own process in the last couple of weeks have also had to look at a little bit of grief around that. And then, but then the gratitude of doing this consciously and looking at my my daughters and really feeling like I'm able to see them.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:Beyond my projections.
SPEAKER_06:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:Right? Beyond what I believe they should be or what I want them to be for me. You know, it's not about that. And so it's yeah, what a beautiful opportunity forgiveness is then.
SPEAKER_06:And you know, I um I think it's it's been more evident to me, you know, as we age, yes, you you go like, there's this part of you that goes like at the end of the day, you, myself, everyone that we know, one beer one day. Yes. You know, I know it sounds like it's going to be not even that long or yeah, you know, this is a very short time span that we spend here. And I think about, you know, like this whole part about about the whole spirituality and and the godliness aspect of it. I think about if I'm someone that essentially, I mean, you know that I'm a Christian, but if I'm someone that believes that word to be the ultimate truth, you know, there are many components that are said in that book. Surely forgiveness is a part of divinity that God Himself went through to understand as a human, we can't escape it. It's a part of our human existence and our humanity that you know we we have to face. It's not something that we want to face, but it's inevitable for every single human being. Yes. You know, we are gonna face these uh transgressions in life, and we have to find ways to be able to deal with it and find the joy. You know, we we very often labor on the fact of one person doing transgression, but forget about six people that have offered us kindness and love. Um and and human nature, we ruminate on the bad and negative generally, the positive. So forget, yes, we we accept things for the bad that there are at times, but we have to forget there's a lot of good that happens to you. Yeah. And when we live in the space of unforgiveness, we tend to live in negative spaces. Um again, like I said, it's not toxic positivity that it's not a conversation on this stuff. But it's also to see that there's a lot of beauty in the world. You know, as I was coming to the studio today, walking down and looking at the mountains, and I know you often speak about nature, Shamula. I think about so much to be grateful for in life and just breathing it and seeing all of that happen. And I realized, you know, that that that much of this that we experienced in life is ultimately given to us.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I know we have to work for some things, but some things we're not working for. Yeah. It's actually just given to us. And it's it's actually profound because it's making me wonder and contemplate as we sit here and speak about this and the depths of this, as we said at the beginning, you know, I didn't know where it was going. Yeah. It's it's actually quite a yeah, it's quite a complex and also deep, you know, topic. But also just wondering about how gratitude is so expansive. Like I often think of it as an expansive quality. Yeah. And again, you know, forgiveness requires you to really reach, stretch, and expand beyond yourself and your individualized experience of whatever happened to you. Sure. Right. In what you were sharing and and how gratitude is a way to get there, you know. And yeah, and and just I suppose what's helpful is to to be grateful. Yes. What didn't happen to you.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:And again, this is so, you know, it's so nuanced, and so I'm so aware of very different situations as we speak about it. And I want to keep saying that because it's not all the same for everybody.
SPEAKER_06:100%.
SPEAKER_02:But there is something about this this gratitude that you speak of that just expands us and that maybe is helpful to get to that opening.
SPEAKER_06:I I love that. It's so true. Now I was listening as the we're doing the research too. And just as we we focus on how all these good things should happen to us and what we owe it and what we deserve it of. Many of the things injustices happen in the world, who's to say that we shouldn't be going through that?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Wow. I mean, that's something I think about every day.
SPEAKER_06:You know, I think I did mention it to Shamela. You said when you go to a funeral, you see someone pass, I think in a previous podcast, you go like, why am I owed another day or given another time? And I think it's about reframing the way we we ask relevant questions at times when these things happen in our life. But to realize, like, why should only the good things be happening to us? There's no promise about that in life. No, we may make that up in our version of that. But there are many injustices happening in the world that that that we feel like, oh well, I heard about it and I continue my life. Absolutely. It's bad. It's better, I get it, but it's not happening to me. Maybe I'm very grateful. Yeah. You know, but but you know what I mean. So many times we confuse that because gratitude is is is literally, like I say, being grateful that you're able to wake up in this morning, spend time with people that you love, that you can go and spread compassion and kindness in the world. You know, we live in a society that I find very disturbing at times, not gonna lie to you, but I don't want to focus on the negativity at times too. I do feel that we can take our pockets of kindness and share that with people. You know, I I often think about in a work context when someone comes to me and I can see the apprehension when it has to be a difficult conversation or they need to ask for some kind of what it, whether it's time off or whatever. I could at the time have the power to say, What, you know what, like I I don't want to do that because I can do that because I can go, there's a contract, you have to work. But then I go, how many times have I in the past gone to someone and said, Would you show some kindness towards me? Because I need to do something that maybe I'm hoping that you would. Understand where I'm coming from.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:So it's to realize that many a times we must see the viewpoints of others sometimes too. And why at times they can do things that sometimes it's our own inferred justice of what that is. Or it could be a relevant injustice done to us. But to realize that we have the ability to also change it and show compassion and kindness to other people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's it's so I don't know, it's like a pervasive, a pervasive light that kind of we we are being reminded of and drawn to because again, you know, when you've when you find yourself in darkness, I think it's Rumi. You see the darkness is the light. Yes. So it almost indicates to you where you've got to create more of that, right? And kind of like reach for more of that light. And it's certainly needed. And one of the things I feel like is related to maybe that light as well. And something I think I've had to maybe you have to, but like I think particularly in a particular role I've played, you know, whether that's in my whole life, in my family, with friends, around my people pleasing and around my is self-forgiveness. Wow. How much work I've had to do at forgiving myself. I think you were mentioning earlier about, you know, taking responsibility for the boundaries you didn't set at a point in your life or with certain people. And yeah, and then and then forgiving myself for that. And that's actually been quite, you know, it's been it's been a process that's kind of really, it's given me, it's taken time and it's given me pause.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because again, the grief and the loss that comes with that, you know, and it's again, this is so nuanced, it's different for everybody, but you can be so entrenched in a role and so identified with a way of being that you lose so much along the way. Yeah. And I think that's what you were mentioning earlier as well, of pushing yourself to through this process so you can feel that joy again.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:And how it's uh, yeah, it's like something you've got to fight for.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. You know, liberating.
SPEAKER_02:It is. It's such a great liberator. And so, and and the forgiveness of the self, you know, forgiving yourself for and also, I mean, I think about my my daughters are teenagers now. So, you know, we've had a whole, we've had a whole rodeo already.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And continue to have one.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And, you know, I've done this as a single parent for most of their lives. And, you know, as my therapist would always say to me, like, the standard I have for myself is is obviously completely insane. Yeah. I I know that I have friends out there. I know that I do. But but but you know, and and constantly feeling like it needs to be better and do and I need to be better. And I think Gabo Mate speaks about how if you do 30% more than what your parents did, you've already created, you know, something completely different for your children. But also just around, yeah, around parenting and where I felt like I wasn't able to be present.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:And and bring my full self and and bring my heart into it. And how a lot of the work I've had to do is around forgiving myself for that.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:You know, and and understanding that that standard actually comes from the wound.
SPEAKER_05:That's very true.
SPEAKER_02:You know, the standard that we set for ourselves, the fact that there's almost little space for imperfection, that it that it's rooted in the wound of not being seen. Gotcha. You know, what we spoke about earlier. Yeah. And that how we I almost want to say we can now see the link maybe in some way of when we go to the root and we go to that wound and who you know perpetrated that. Sure. That sometimes it's our parents, caregivers, whoever that is, and the forgiveness for them, how that leads you to all of the patterns and the roles and the behaviors that you've indulged in because of that. And then how self-forgiveness becomes, you know, almost this solve. Yeah, that that that helps you to do it differently now.
SPEAKER_06:I love that as you know, Shamla, as part of my healing, I mean this this story I shared early on, I had to realize like where where was my parts that my triggers, if one wants to call it, that I felt. And I also had to realize it was a part of self-forgiveness for myself too. That when I was feeling such situations, I had to literally, because our psyche doesn't note time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So we can react the same way as I was when I felt when I was a very young boy. Yep. But I literally had to, in part of this process, go back to myself as that eight or seven-year-old boy feeling so vulnerable and feeling like, what did I possibly do to contribute to this? And go like, as an older man going back now and telling that child, you know what, you you didn't know any better. Yep. There's nothing that you could have done that would change the trajectory of what transpired.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_06:And then realizing that that in itself was so much part of my healing to realize that nothing I could have done back then. So I don't have to live in the past anymore because I've now gone back to and said, listen, yeah, yes, you did the best that you could back then. Right. You are where you are now because you've gone to the wound, like you mentioned, was the opening. Yep. I've addressed it now. Yes. And it was it was like a weight had just been lifted. Yes. Yes. Because I'd never actually done that in the past. And then once that was done, I could then actually find ultimate forgiveness for the individual that I was holding a grievance to.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Wow.
SPEAKER_06:And that for me, like you're saying, has given me opportunity to now go like, okay, now, now that things are clear for you, now you know, particularly for parenting, because we speak about it both. Now I know what I can do to change some of that. That I don't repeat some of that stuff again. Yes. And that process, like you say, it's it's been amazing. It's I I wanted to say a word now, I don't think we say it in the podcast, but it's it's hard, it's challenging at times. Yes. But it's the most rewarding thing that I think I will ever be bestowed upon me as as a father, the role that I'll play. And it's the place where I'll probably most the most impact in my life.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, that's so incredible. I love that. And obviously, it deeply resonates with me, and and I'm sure it resonates with lots of people listening, whether they're parents or not. Sure. But I think the the gift of the process again of healing, I guess, is that I think we're early on when I was talking about being able to see my children clearly, that's also the gift for ourselves, is that we get to see ourselves clearly without the the messages and the stories we believe was said about us. Because maybe that's sometimes what we sit with. Yeah. That you know, kind of is a bit of a a hindrance to to getting to forgiveness is that we're so stuck on what this now makes us. Yeah. Like what does this make me now? Gotcha. You know? Uh, what does this say about me? And I I I guess we're encouraging and maybe just making the suggestion that that perhaps you know, letting go of that story and reaching, you know, beyond yourself into forgiveness and the decision to do that can help you see yourself more clearly and you can let go of that and you decide.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, you you reclaim that power, you decide what and who you are. You know, because often with this, you know, and I clearly from both of our experiences, the person who hurt you or wronged you is centered in your life. 100%. They become, you know, to use a term from pop culture, the main character.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:When you are in truth, in your own life, you are the main character. And so, yeah, and so it's it's an encouragement to to to not center them. You become the center because you you shift your focus away from you know the story they were telling or that you believe they left you with when they hurt you or they wronged you, or they continue to do that. You you decide, you know. So there's a again, there is a maybe an authenticity that you can reach for through the process and you know of of yeah, forgiveness, engaging in it.
SPEAKER_06:I think, you know, um someone explained once about how central, like you're saying, these figures are, these main characters in our lives. But they use the analogy of a dartboard. Yeah. Um, and you know the dartboard in the middle has got a bullseye, like that red dice. And they're saying basically the people that are central in your life, the important figures, like your close family members, your parents, your brothers, stuff, they literally f kind of form around that bullseye, like close to you, so you see the best and the worst of them at times. Yes. And then as you go into your peripheral relationships, like your colleagues and stuff, they don't always get to see those intricate parts of Shamila. No. And therefore, generally it's the people closest to us that generally do these transgressions or you know, that we perceive as such as the time. Or we transgress. Or we transgress, I guess, yeah, too, as well. But you know, Shamilla, there was something when I was doing exercise before I get into that, but I just realized that, you know, about just two years ago, someone that I classified as a friend, and we had had, you know, the relatively good chats through the years. I wouldn't say we had a close friendship, but we I think we were more than work colleagues. We shared a friendship, and there was a time she was going through a difficult period in her life, and she came to say, you know, Lincoln, you know, this this topic we don't want to speak about, but would you perhaps borrow me money? And I think I've learned my lesson when it comes to friends well. But what I realized is that at the time, you know, I I gave the money, but I had the expectation I'd get the money back, kind of thing. Um and obviously I didn't, just to put the disclaimer on already. Yeah, if you didn't think of that actually. So what happens is it happened that after a while, I never ever raised the topic about the money about six months later, but she blocked me.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_06:Wow. You can imagine what that does to you in your internally what you perceive to be a valid relationship or a friendship, what they would do to you. And like many of us, you know. But I think the the part that I want to say is like the feelings that I had and the feelings that I that I sat with for quite a while after that, and the same situation came up a while later, but it changed afterwards. I realized that this individual I found out went through something. I think I'm not taking ownership away from her saying that what she did was wrong, right? But I have a better understanding of why she came to me as a lot of last resort to do that, knowing what the circumstances were, I know now what it was. But she obviously chose to not have a relationship with me afterwards by doing that, right? Okay. Many, many years ago, 20 years ago, practically almost, um, I did the same thing.
SPEAKER_03:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_06:So before we take this noble notion of thinking that, you know, it's only other people transgress against us, and I did it through this mere research of doing this work. Realizing 20 years ago, someone that was a close friend to me, when I was in a difficult situation, I did the same thing to him and I justified it in my mind that he was better off than me at the time.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_06:I gave a certain portion back and I just left it. Wow. This individual never treated me differently.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_06:He still treated me exactly the same. He never asked me. But can you imagine coming to realization going like I harbored this unforgiveness towards someone in my life now, in a different season of my life, but we're all in different seasons. Yes. So at a time of a season in my life, I did that to someone else. So I think what I'm trying to say is that very often we want to take the moral high ground to go like it's only other people that transgress upon us.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:I think we have to realize and get off our horses at times and realize that we ourselves at seasons of our life can be the transgressor.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. These are the stories that make you taste the earth, touch the ground. Yep. You know, it's the and thank you for sharing that. That's profoundly brave of you to say because I think I want to say one thing before we carry on. Go ahead, please do.
SPEAKER_06:In this process of doing this work, yeah, I've realized that I have to take ownership. Even if it's 20 years ago that I did this, I'm obviously a different individual. A lot of work is happening between. But I have to take ownership of knowing that maybe this individual might be sitting with some unforgiveness, and I have a role to play to maybe change that.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:So I'm not saying when I'm going to do that, but I realize that I need to reach out to this individual. We don't have a lot of contact anymore. But I want to, as part of this now, the work realize that I have the ability to change what I did in some other way, even if just the way that I make him view maybe someone else. Like how could someone do that to him? Yes.
SPEAKER_02:But there's something about I think in doing that, you know, and I I think this comes this comes to the point of like a genuine apology, sure, uh, or a repair. Maybe let's call it that. Genuine repair is that that's what you're saying. I see you. Like I see myself. Gotcha. Like I was able to see myself. Yeah. And I see you. And and even though I can't fix that, I want you to know that I fully acknowledge the position I placed you in, or what I did to you. You know, and there's there's yeah, there's such a validation that someone can, you know, receive from that. But there's also a like you re you release yourself from that, you know, and what could be maybe an emotional turmoil that you still sit with.
SPEAKER_06:I still struggle with it at times.
SPEAKER_02:I'm sure you do because it's not who you are. Exactly. I know that.
SPEAKER_06:It's it's almost like you say to yourself, like, you know, am I hypocrite? Yeah. At times. Because yeah, I'm trying to live this virtuous life where I'm trying to do the right thing. Yes. And you know we we don't always get it right, but but you know what I mean. So I'm not doing the work and doing the healing work, and some parts that I have to play where I can, you know, show up better in situations. But yeah, something that I did a transgression 20 years ago. And even though the lucky thing that I have this individual still alive, even past, you still have a chance. I still have a chance. There's still today and tomorrow. So I I I really what I want to say is this the podcast we're doing is to show you that it's it's even a it's a it's a healing for myself at times. Yes, and it shows up certain things to myself to go like, you know, I'm I may have been further on the line. There's maybe some things I really want to go work on and still you know fix. Yes. And that's been that's been a mirror. A big mirror for me.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, wow, and and I again I I want to acknowledge the the willingness to repair, you know, because that maybe brings us to to this idea of a forgiveness as self-forgiveness, and then obviously forgiveness as a form of repairing something that was broken, you know, or I don't know, there was a a bit of a stumbling block in the relationship. But that it plays such an important role in I think again, re genuinely reconnecting and feeling like there may be some kind of resolution.
SPEAKER_05:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:But I think that ultimately it's about feeling seen and heard and acknowledged, and yeah, and that that the individual has true empathy for you. Gotcha. You know, and that yeah, that that's held in regard. And again, like how that deepens intimacy and relationships.
SPEAKER_06:You know, so interesting, Shamla, because this morning my wife and I were talking about this topic by today's podcast, and she actually mentioned this and she said exactly what you said now. She said for her, all of us really want to be seen as individuals and be acknowledged.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_06:So, you know, if we feel that someone has in some way harmed us or you know, grievanced us, is that they acknowledge that in some way, and if they can't, that that you know, that that we are still able to continue kind of not carrying that unforgiveness in our heart. Because can you imagine what that does to you as an individual?
SPEAKER_02:I think you were early on you just sort of mentioned obviously the neurological effects of it and and how I suppose pain also lives in our body.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And how forgiveness plays a role in relieving us from that. And, you know, I mean, we're holistic beings, and so our emotional life is deeply, you know, connected to our physical life. And so how that can also just create release in the body, gotcha. You know, releasing and and yeah, that letting go. That's uh such a big part of forgiveness. And and you said it earlier on, you know, the emotional weight that you no longer sit with and the lightness of being that you experience because of again engaging with us, and there's no there's no one way to do this, you know, which is what I kind of want to say is that I mean, there's you can Google forgiveness like we did, or use whatever platform you want, and then see that there's some multiple articles that'll say these are the steps to forgiveness, this is what you need to do. Yeah, I think that our message is very clear that it's it's organic or individual process. Yeah. I think the focus needs to be on not making forgiveness the ultimate goal to the degree that you prematurely forgive and accept a situation. I think you go with your process, you be in the angst and the charge of your emotion, gotcha, and you allow that to flow into something a little bit more steady and less charged, and then maybe you come upon an opening. Yeah, yeah, you know, gotcha where you go, can I now? You know, and do I want to? Yeah. Do I feel it's time to actually forgive and and let this go and let myself breathe easier, you know, because I I don't know how you feel the resonance in when something sits with me, I definitely feel a physical heaviness on my heart.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:I feel that, and it sits in my chest, very much sort of in the heart space, obviously, right? And in the shoulders, and it's it's heavy. And as someone who like I really it's very important to me that I keep my system clear.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So my old vessel, whatever that includes, mind, body, soul, yeah, my nervous system. Like I work at keeping that clear and noticing when something sits there.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:And so, yeah. And so it's important for me to be. And so that what I meant earlier on about that sitting with this imagination, this this space between no longer feeling the charge, but not getting to forgiveness yet, is going, okay, I'm still sitting with this. I can still feel it in my heart. And even as I sit here now, I feel it. It doesn't feel as heavy anymore. But there's such a hopefulness I feel because I am dedicated to letting it go.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:I'm dedicated to that and dedicating it, dedicated to it because I want that to leave me, you know, and not be between me and the person, so that I can again see them quite clearly. Yeah. But also that I don't sit with that. I love it. That I can live in the relief of that.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. You know? It was a doctor, I can't remember, I think it's Dr. Karen Silver, some research I did as well. Um it comes down to you saying about, you know, how does forgiveness look? It might be different. She's saying, because I don't know what the world population is, but let's say eight billion people, there could be eight billion ways to forgive. I think what she's wanting to say is there's no linear process to it.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_06:I love I love that the way she looked at it. For every person looks different. I think that's the important part. Absolutely. Um, I love the fact that you say there's a biological component as well. Yes. Because I mean, I I in her research also said it helps in terms of it has a lot of positive effects on your body.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:You know, it can be enough blood pressure. Yeah. I also read about dropping cholesterol, cardiovascular disease. So I mean, you can understand, like you're saying, with you sit with that heaviness at times. Can you imagine how that permeates through your body and the effects it can have, negative effects can have on your body. Absolutely. So, you know, I again, like I say, this this is not us sitting here and going like this is the ideal state to be in. This is a gesture of reaching out, you know, basically saying to you try this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:You know, if you if you found the discussion interesting today, to go that, you know, it's piqued my interest enough to know that like it's had, I can see the the value of it. And you've realized that like, you know, you've lived too long and ruminated in a space where you just don't find you're hitting a wall. You're doing a loop, a continuous loop. Yes. Maybe try one or two of these things. So I did a workbook by I think it's Everett Worthington. And basically his workbook is on six steps you can do, and it literally spells the word reach. So you can go Google it if you want, Everett Worthington. And the shorter version is two hours. So basically the premise of this is choose an offense that someone perhaps did or something that you've gone through, and that becomes the same offense throughout the six or seven exercises you do throughout the book.
SPEAKER_05:Okay.
SPEAKER_06:The aim of the book is really to go like as you start off, say how are you currently feeling about the situation? As you go through the workbook and the exercises, the intention is for you to see different aspects and hopefully at the end of the workbook to get to a space, like you say, you at a very minimum see that perhaps as individual differently than what you did when you started the exercise. So, like you're saying, it's create an opening perhaps only. Yes, but it's an opening that you never had prime to do the work. Absolutely. I think that's what you have to remember. And I think we've always said it that this is not a space where it's instant gratification, yeah. We're not offering you one-minute videos or clips here to say this is going to improve your life in tremendous ways. Yeah, there's no shortcuts, yeah. But if you're willing to put in the work to find an opening, at least as a as a as a foremost to try that and go like, you know what, maybe at where you are as a very early stage, like Shamley mentioned before, but by continuously trying to do the work, the effort, you might be in a space in six months' time where you feel a lot different than you do now. Yes. And that's the ideal state. There's an ideal state to go like tomorrow I want to feel this way. Human beings, we have emotions, it doesn't work like that. Exactly. So create an opening in space and going like, I want to try this for myself, not for the transgressor. Because I want to live a different life than this, the the heaviness I carry with myself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love that. Thank you for that. And I think, and the fact that you've worked so actively with it to me is just incredible. And it sounds like we've done that differently.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, but we've definitely done it. And I think before we jumped on, we were talking about how other work we've done it was sort of the precursor to doing deeper work around forgiveness, right? And really understanding that it's it's an all-encompassing experience, and there's a lot of the historic us that's in it. So I just want to mention a few things to remember. Gotcha is that from a relational perspective, forgiveness is, as we know, you know, the thing that that kind of helps us transform our relationships. Sometimes it shifts things. Sometimes that means that we spend time grieving the loss of how it used to be.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And sometimes we we grieve completely a loss because it can it can no longer be.
SPEAKER_05:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:And that's absolutely okay.
SPEAKER_05:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:That there are relationships that have to end, and that's healthy for you and the individual. Or, you know, the other person may not even be able to acknowledge the right.
SPEAKER_05:And that's okay.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So that's really important to mention. And also, I think you you brought it up earlier in your example is that forgiveness has to come with boundaries. In most instance instances, alongside forgiveness, you have to you have to do the work around deciding what your boundaries are.
SPEAKER_06:100%.
SPEAKER_02:And that's really important because it tempers expectation. I mean, as we know, so much of our fighting is about, you know, sometimes unseed, unmet expectation, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_06:A lot of sense.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_06:A lot of sense.
SPEAKER_02:And so, and so I want you to consider that. I want you to consider that alongside the work of forgiveness, that you also look at yourself, take responsibility, and and hold the other person accountable, you know, to and and set the boundary. That's going to protect you. You know, it's not gonna be a deterrent for anything going wrong, because that's not how this works, but at least you've you've yeah, you've taken care of yourself in some way. Yeah, and then just to remind you that the the root of the word means that we give completely. Yes. And complete your process of getting to a point where you may want to forgive. Gotcha. Or you may not. I honestly can say that if people choose not to forgive, as long as they've done the process, is what I would say. I have no judgment towards that. I can't know what that must mean for you.
SPEAKER_06:100%.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, it's I I guess again, it these are all suggestions and and and just ideas, and I guess inspiring you to to get curious about it.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. No, I get it, I get it. Yeah. I mean, just one last quote to end on, and I'm sure you've heard it before. Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and thinking the other person's gonna die. Expecting the other person to die, yes. And very often we we think that. Um, so again, like we said, they were all just you know, conversation to to stir a thought. Yes, perhaps you know, go down a certain path, create an opening, yeah, create space for it. Yeah, and certainly for myself, just doing the research, it's it's been emotionally taxing because it is just last another point. Most transgressions, number one, family, second partner. So to give you an idea, we kind of touched on many of those, but but and these are situations you can't avoid. So you you're gonna find yourself in a situation where these transgressions are gonna happen, probably on a regular basis, probably some that are much less of a grievance than others. And again, like we said, we hold space for that too. But it's just like I said, it's just interesting. And I think for myself personally, I have really grown in this topic and have a much better understanding. And if it's only been a short space of time that Sham and I have done the research, imagine where you. can get to yes by just putting the work in.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:So I'll leave it at that, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I that's a reminder of, and I think you've reminded us today very clearly about the humility, you know, of this human journey that we all absolutely like it's it's so necessary for us to be in touch with our humility and to remember that and obviously human and humility share the same root. That is what is of the earth you know where we come from. And so and we will return but but it's a yeah I it's a it's a very heart opening idea and I think question to sit with or just reflection to sit with. Yeah yeah you know so yeah.
SPEAKER_06:There's a last point I'll just say yes in 50 years time will any of this matter?
SPEAKER_02:Indeed because some of us won't be here.
SPEAKER_06:That's it. Anyway it was a fascinating discussion today.
SPEAKER_02:Indeed thank you for joining us and we hope that you we've sparked some question or curiosity and we look forward to having you join us next time. From Myself Lincoln until next time and from Ishamula sending you love and greetings.
SPEAKER_04:Well that was the human story brought to you by Yoked Media stay tuned for more on the human story