Standing Tall: Flipping the Script on the Tall Poppy Syndrome with Kim Lancer

In this episode, Kate sits down with leadership expert and global Executive Coach Kim Lancer, founder of Tall Poppies Leadership, who is on a mission to help one million leaders lead confidently and "stand tall."

Growing up in Australia, Kim experienced firsthand how the country's notorious "Tall Poppy Syndrome" encourages high achievers to downplay their success. After spending most of her career overseas in the UK and USA—where this cultural phenomenon is less prominent—Kim returned to Australia determined to flip the script. She founded her business to help leaders embrace their achievements and develop authentic, powerful leadership styles.

Now Kim empowers executives across five continents to confidently own their success rather than hide it. Her signature "Know, Trust, Be Yourself" methodology is transforming leadership development by turning a culture of cutting people down into one that lifts everyone up.

If you've ever felt pressure to downplay your wins or shrink to make others comfortable, you'll enjoy this conversation.

Key Highlights & Takeaways:

🌍 From Exchange Student to Global Leadership Expert Kim's 20-year international career journey—from Dutch exchange student to NYC executive—shaped her culturally aware, human-centric approach to leadership development.

🎯 The Confidence Crisis in Leadership

• Why confidence is the most overlooked yet critical leadership skill
• How self-doubt ("Kevin," as Kim calls it) sabotages even high performers
• Cultural differences in confidence expression between Australia/NZ and US/UK markets

💡 The "Know, Trust, Be Yourself" Framework

• Know Yourself: Build genuine self-awareness through intentional reflection
• Trust Yourself: Learn to manage (not eliminate) self-doubt effectively
• Be Yourself: Leverage your unique quirks and strengths as leadership advantages

🌺 Tall Poppy Syndrome Decoded

• Why Australia and New Zealand struggle with celebrating individual achievement
• The business cost of cultural pressure to "stay humble"
• How leaders can "stand tall" without apology

⚖️ The Gender Confidence Divide

• Women acknowledge self-doubt more openly but may underestimate their capabilities
• Men often mask internal struggles behind confident facades
• Why both genders need safe spaces for authentic leadership development

🧠 Strategic Self-Awareness

• Tasha Eurich's research: 95% think they're self-aware, but only 10-15% actually are
• Self-awareness as competitive advantage, not just emotional intelligence
• Understanding your energy patterns, values, and impact on others

🚀 Leadership as Personal Growth

• Confidence as a developable skill, not fixed trait
• Learning to sit with discomfort and use it as fuel for growth
• Why sustainable transformation beats quick coaching fixes

Ready to lead with more confidence and authenticity?

Connect with Kim Lancer at Tall Poppies Leadership:

Connect with Your Hosts:

Kate De Jong, PhD | Inspired Business 🌐 Website: https://katedejong.com/ 📱 Instagram: @katedejong.inspiredbusiness ✉️ Email: kate@katedejong.com

Sam Morris | The O8 🌐 Website: https://www.theo8.com/ 📱 Instagram: @the_o8crew ✉️ Email: sam@theo8.com

Thriving Business Podcast 🌐Website:   https://www.thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/ 

Transcript

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to the Thriving Business Podcast. I'm very honored to have a special guest with us today. Kim Lancer from Tall Poppies Leadership. Hi Kim. 

Hi, Kate. Great to be here. 

Yeah, thank you for joining us. Um, unfortunately, my co-host Sam, can't be here today as, as I was mentioning before, she's home in Victoria without power, so, ah.

Very disappointed to not be able to join in the conversation. 'cause she came up with a lot of the questions that we're gonna be discussing today. Some of the things we are curious about in leadership. Um, but you are a, um. Um, the founder of a global leadership development company called Tall Poppies Leadership, and I love your tagline, which is Stand Tall, about cultural initiatives, leadership team journeys, executive coaching, and you do keynote speaking as well.

Um, and you do a lot of work, um, across uk SA and a. Australia. And if you don't mind, Kim, it'd be great to just hear a bit about your backstory and how you got to, um, got into this work and your journey and how you've managed to straddle three continents at all at once. So yeah, over to you. Thank you. 

I, well, I grew up here in Perth and studied communications and then sort of set off around the world.

I moved to London early days after I had a year in Holland, so that kind of opened up my mind to what I could do globally. I lived there for a year as an exchange student and when I, 

where, where were you in Holland? Sorry to interrupt. 

I was in Sal, it's a tiny town right next to the border of Germany.

Like as, as stereotypical as you can think. 

Yeah. With the 

cows, with the windmills. Um, that was my first introduction to total discomfort. You know, fish out of water, you're living with a Dutch family and you have to learn a new language and a new space. Mm-hmm. So I definitely think that played a part in what I wanted to do later on, but, you know, you don't know what you wanna do yet.

So like I cut with this. Yeah. Um, so probably early days in London I was working at an investment bank 

and 

I remember going to a London Business school event and talking about the bank, which I loved. I loved the culture, I loved the leadership at Credit Suisse. And when I talked about it, I thought, oh, I actually really want to not just bring people into the bank, but I wanna develop and grow them.

So that 

planted an early seed, um, not just to do, you know, the marketing piece of it, but to develop and if you fast forward, I had this beautiful career at the bank, um, really developing people. That was about six years. Then I had 11 years transferred over to New York. 

That's 

where I really started finding themes in leadership.

Right. And was, did it within a bank also with an amazing global training company. And started to really sense that actually people are not tapping into their own confidence in the way they could to just be happy and successful in their own terms. So that was sort of 20 years away from Australia. Mm-hmm.

And, uh, this desire was burning as to, well, I wanna do it. I wanna do leadership development in a way that I think really works now because I've seen it in different continents. And by then I was completely homesick, wanted to be back with my family, and came back seven years ago with this desire to set up the business and thought, I'm gonna flip the script on to pop syndrome.

Mm. 

Um, yeah. So, um, and that was the, with the same investment bank while you were in UK and New York, is that right? 

Yes. 

Yeah. Yeah. So 

that probably. I was gonna say that probably explains why I think about leadership in a, um, a very holistic, personal way, but also being very savvy and commercial in a business way.

Mm-hmm. You know, it 

needs to work ingrained because that's been, you know, my experience. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. And, um, was tall Poppy syndrome a thing in the UK and USA or is it something you noticed when you got back to Australia? 

No, not at all. That's actually part of why I called, yeah, the company that, because you know, I lived in Holland.

That's not a cultural impact, not in the UK and not in the us. In fact, confidence has varied levels. 

Yeah. So I 

just thought, well, how ridiculous that we have this force that I remember experiencing growing up where you can't celebrate your wins until you've actually won, and you sort of have to be humble.

You are not really encouraged. I don't remember. You know, I was an 800 meter runner and to stand tall, it's very much about humility, which is a beautiful thing as well as, you know, let's celebrate and share things that you're really happy about. Yeah. Um, yeah. 

But you're saying in Holland, uk, USA, you didn't experience that, um, that needing to stay small.

Is that right? 

No, they don't have tall puppy syndrome there. Yeah. It's predominantly Australia and New Zealand, so they have different cultural influences that affect you, um, in terms of how confident you can be. And then we have our own, don't we Kate? We've got our own self-doubt going on. My constant critic, Kevin, my friend.

So there's these two parallels Yeah. In our world that I found are just stifling, like what's getting in the way of achieving what we want. It's, it's mainly ourselves. 

Yeah, and 

I, you know, I think that's ridiculous. So if we could normalize that and if we knew here are some things that are getting in the way, then it would just feel lighter.

You just get to follow your own pathway, do what you want. 

Yeah. 

It's actually a lot of strong, you know, conformity and pressures to belong and compare and 

yeah, 

regardless of where you. 

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay. And, um, and so yeah, um, tell us a bit about, 'cause you, you're in, um, partnership with your husband in business.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, when did you guys meet and how did that business journey start together? Uh, 

well, our love stories Ill timed as I find many love stories are. So I actually decided. That I was going to move home to Australia and set up the business, and I'd been away, like I said, close to 20 years then. And that's when I met Greg.

Mm. And 

he, um, didn't live in New York, or I was living at the time and he was in Philadelphia. And, um, yeah, that, that was sort of the start of the love story. And at the time I had to convince him to move from, you know, one side of the country. Side of the world to the other side of the world. 

Yeah. He was an executive 

coach.

He's American, he's an executive coach. He actually introduced me to my coaching program and HA had an MBA had been doing leadership development, so we're in similar fields. 

Mm. 

Actually met at a conference, a leadership development conference at Universal Studios. 

Oh. So that makes 

sense. In a similar profession.

And then Met, had the professional stuff in common and yeah. Obviously the, the personal connection started there and exactly how has he found the move to Australia? 

Wonderful. We have two boys, so, um, the boys were six and 11 when I met and we got married in Australia and then planned to move over seven years ago now.

Yeah. So I think he, you know, they've all just fallen in love with it. 

Yeah. Um, 

it been really beautiful and the plan was I'd start the business and when it was growing enough, then obviously he would use his expertise as a coach and a leadership development, um, expert too, and joined, and then we sort of grew from there and we've exponentially grown and now we have different associates who come in and support our work in the US and in Australia.

Yeah. Amazing. So, um, tell us a bit more, 'cause I know confidence is a theme of your, um, you know, of, of the work that you do. Can you talk to us a bit about, about that and, and how your, 'cause you, I know that your coaching takes a different angle to a lot of so-called executive coaching. 

Can you tell us?

Yeah. I mean, the first thing about executive coaching is that you're really, like, you are hearing secrets for people. You're hearing like the, the true underworking of what's happening and, and that's a beautiful occupation to have and you actually get to really support, inspire them and encourage them to achieve their goals.

Yeah, 

so when you do that for years and years and years, um, I really started to notice, you know, it's not actually people tapping into their skill or learning a new skill. 

The, 

the default that we have, by the way, is when we have a bit of self-doubt, we'll often wanna credentialize. So a lot of people, you know, if they change careers, they think about going to get additional credentializing or what else will make me feel confident?

And it's often a skill. 

But 

what I found was when I was coaching, when people were actually in key moments, like you, you are presenting to a board. You're doing a huge pitch for an m and a deal. You actually don't need to learn something new in that moment. You have it, especially senior high performing people.

So the the key is to tap back into your confidence and what is your true capability 

in that moment. 

And that means you have to clear your head space. You have to be very goal orientated. It's very business orientated, but you're actually coming back to your own confidence of, I can achieve this. 

Hmm. 

And that.

Allows you to follow like the most sustainable path and, and the happiest path for yourselves. So that's what the igniting confidence piece was about. It was about holistically looking at leaders, not just in separate, you know, work contents. 

Yeah. Because often 

when I'm coaching in leadership development programs, we're, we're highly distracted or, or impacted by emotional things in our lives.

So let's create a space where you can talk about all of this, sift through it, and then you can actually become far more productive and higher performing. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what are some of the techniques you, you help people, um, you know, bring in for those kind of situations? Um, you know, if you've got a high stake situation and you're, you're feeling nervous, is, is that how you work with someone?

You, um, you give them tools and strategies, or is it more like a. Um, personal growth journey with them, you know, how do you, how do you help someone develop confidence in themselves in those situations? 

Yeah. We've, we've actually created, after doing this for so long, our own, um, thought leadership on it, which is, you know, confident leaders and you know yourself.

Mm-hmm. 

We trust yourself and you can be yourself. 

Mm-hmm. So 

fundamentally, um, that is about knowing yourself. That's how do I enhance my self-awareness? Trusting yourself. How do I actually navigate self-doubt? Because that's a barrier for everyone across the world. 

Yep. 

Especially business owners who have to be incredibly motivated and resilient themself, very lonely world.

Mm-hmm. 

And then finally, how do I be myself essentially, which is how do I step into my own quirkiness? 

Yeah, you 

set my own path. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, so they're the core concepts, no trust and be yourself underneath that. You, it, you really need to be intentional about where you are. So let's say you're about to do a board meeting.

I had a leader recently, it was going into a board meeting and um, it felt different. It feels like a different scenario in that setting. Mm-hmm. So it's actually being reflective around, oh, this is the same skill and setting just a different, more intimidating person. 

Right. 

So one of the strategies is actually reflecting on what is the landscape, analyzing how will I begin.

Mm-hmm. Also, when you're high performing and, and running around as you and I are as business owners, it's very quick. 

Mm-hmm. 

So one of the strategies is coming back to cutting out the noise. 

Mm-hmm. 

Not enough people are looking at that. This is my specific goal, this is the impact with the audience. How will I do that?

How do I come back to, I'm capable of doing this. 

Yeah. So it's more about being really intentional by the sounds of it. It's 

definitely, 

yeah. Okay. 

You know, and, and if you take intentionality as a core, which is how you're going to ignite your confidence, we don't, we're not confident in everything. Mm. Also, just think about confidence caters as a, a concept.

You have to be uncomfortable to get there. 

Yeah. 

You have to actually go through a process. And of course, that's not what we wanna do. Just like, um, you know, same with confidence, same with self-doubt. A barrier to achieving results in business is that so many people think, well, I shouldn't have self-doubt anymore.

Mm. Or 

other people don't have self-doubt. Look how polished they look. 

Yeah. So there 

is these themes that I've seen across, you know, the highest, fastest. Industries. Yeah. And they're actually getting in the way of people performing. And what do you need to perform or to be happy? You need to believe in yourself.

Yeah. You 

need to be confident about what you're doing, not just striving to do it the way that somebody else does it, or get additional, you know, pieces. 

Yeah. Fascinating. Um, yeah, we used to always say to, um, for years we ran, um, workshops for female founders and we used to say to them to being, get used to being uncomfortable.

You know, I just, it's, um, it's a state of, you know, it's kind. You can't escape that feeling of being uncomfortable constantly. You know, when you're. Um, stepping into new terrain when you're growing all of that stuff, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. And understanding that that is just a normal, everyone feels that way.

It's not, not unique. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, do you find that men struggle with confidence as well? Yeah, absolutely. 

Everybody experiences the same self-doubt. You know, we all have our Kevins because our brain has 70,000 thoughts for everybody, and 80% of them are negative. So if you know that humans have this operating system that's always steering towards the left, I think the left is, you know, it's, it's the supermarket trolley steering over here negatively.

Yeah. 

Then the key is actually just to be able to navigate it. I find that it shows up differently in genders. 

Okay, 

so for example, I find as a theme, although not, obviously, there's not a absolute, um, truth to all themes. Mm-hmm. So we're all unique and have exceptions, but as a theme, having done this 25 years, I find that females are more.

Open to admitting that confidence is in the way or they can name it. 

Mm-hmm. You know, 

I have some self-doubt happening for myself. What am I gonna do? Um, and sometimes it takes a little bit longer for male leaders to disclose that, and I think that's, you know, what I've noticed is that's 'cause societal pressures about what's really acceptable.

Yeah. 

Uh, essentially the same barriers are there. 

So 

that's a lot of the work that we do. I don't wanna do leadership development, that's, you know, let me teach you negotiation. 30 minutes and that's it. 

Everything 

we do is over the year. 

Mm-hmm. 

At least six months where it makes a really big difference and you're actually thinking and empowering yourself to be able to operate at a different level.

Solar for yourself. And that means learning some key strategies around, well, how does your brain actually work? And once you know that and you have accountability and you have these touch points, you have community, you, you can be on a completely different pathway. 

Yeah. 

And also same for myself. I'm still gonna have self-doubt all the time.

I work very hard not to burn out, to keep my intentionality to stay positive, just like everybody does. 

Mm. I've 

just read and learned so much more about it than I'm doing it in little baby steps all the time. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

And that's, that's a key for business owners as well, isn't it? 'cause think about how many different directions we've pulled in all the time.

Mm-hmm. 

So business owners, in my experience, and I'm a part of a group as well, so hardworking, very susceptible to burnout, um, constantly. Um, not giving themselves permission. 

Yeah. 

Having to push through. 

Yep. 

Not aware of where everything is 'cause we're scattered and there's so many things that we are juggling as experts.

But if you come back to like, I need to know myself. Right? What's happening for me? Where's my decision coming from around avoiding feedback to a manager. 

Mm-hmm. If 

I know that I've just lost two deals, then I can come back to trusting myself. 'cause I know I have to manage my own self-doubt. It's not me.

And 

same with being myself, like here we are as business owners, creating something in the world, determining new strategies, and we're often comparing, but you have to come back to, no, this is what we do as a business. Yeah. Which you would know so well in guiding them. This is the unique element and that takes intentionality.

Yeah, 

yeah, yeah. No, there was a very funny Ted talk many years ago by a Spanish guy saying, if only. Um, what was it? If only we all had the, uh, um, 10% of the fraction of compete, no confidence of a white male or something like it was a, it was a, it was very, um, gender stereotypical, but it was also based on a, what I loved about his talk, it was based on a research, um 

mm-hmm.

He 

was a, you know, um, a research scientist, psychologist. Mm-hmm. And that's why I was curious because I know what you're saying, that men do struggle with confidence potentially in a different. Way, but there is, it appears there's this ingrained, um, confidence in, in men that women, yeah. Having worked, you know.

I worked with, um, as an engineer with men, you know, obviously, um, for 15 years. Yes. Then stepped into coaching only women for five years straight. Mm-hmm. When we launched Empire and I really did notice a stark difference between working with men and working with women. I found that confidence really is a barrier for women and like you say, they do talk about it openly and it is actually a thing whereas.

Um, men. Yeah. In, in my experience, even if they do struggle with self doubt, there is this sort of, um, ingrained confidence that they can fall back on, that they can back themselves a bit more. Do you know what I, I, I'm curious to hear your experience Yeah. In the leadership circles that 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, there's all of the reset, you know, the, the studies, um, on resumes.

A job application. Yeah. The study is telling us, oh, I need to have 80% of the competency and then I can apply for it. You know, women, I need to have 50% and then I can apply for it. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. So, and that shows up in multiple different ways. Plus there's unconscious bias. So we have different associations with male and females, which are of, you know, um, supporting men being seen in a certain way versus females being seen in a certain way.

Yeah. So, 

um, and then finally, Kate, you have this sense of belonging. I went to a lunch last week. There was maybe 400 people. It was a business lunch. I've grown up in a highly male-centric industry. Investment banking. We have private equity clients, like very male dominated. And even still, I walked into the lunch, it was 80% men, 

and I 

had this instant feeling of not belonging.

Mm. So that, that's just a human thing that we navigate. Now, if you've had that, depending on what you've had in varying degrees, is it harder to speak out? And this could be, 

have you 

had that before? So belonging is one of our core needs. Yeah. Just like growth is as a human. 

Yeah. Um, 

and therefore, if you're constantly in those rooms in boardrooms where you are not seeing yourself and your voice is seen or heard in a different way, that will absolutely play on your confidence.

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. So that, 

that's the disproportionate be piece. 

Yeah. Fascinating. And, you know, the, the term emotional intelligence is all the, um, you know, it's, it's spoken about a lot, right? In leadership circles or in conversations. And, um, I love the research by, um, Tasha Yek when she found that, um, 95% of all people think they're self-aware.

Mm-hmm. Only eight, only 10 to 15% of people actually are self-aware. Mm-hmm. Which is fascinating 'cause it means that around 85% of us are not seeing ourselves clearly, or not how others perceive us or are blind spots. So how do you cultivate that quality in people? Because you mentioned self-awareness before and you're talking about how do you help someone develop emotional intelligence or self-awareness?

Uh, you help them through asking questions. Mm-hmm. You help them through, uh, actually encouraging them to reflect. Mm-hmm. So a number of different things in a coaching session, just at the beginning, if you ask somebody, you know, where are you out of 10 today? Mm-hmm. Instead of bouncing from meetings, it'll bring their awareness to, uh, I'm actually really low on my energy.

Mm-hmm. So I'm not 

going to be able to sift through, like, we don't make great decisions when we have low energy, or we're just exhausted. Yeah. Um, the question piece reflecting, um, one of the things we do in all of our programs is always thinking about what's the progress that's just happened? 'cause again, emotional intelligence, self-awareness, if we're in this state of feeling scattered, 

we 

tend to be more negative as humans, then we're always noticing what we haven't done versus what we have.

Mm-hmm. 

So a key of, a key part of emotional intelligence is to be actually kinder to yourself. And that can only start if you're aware of progress. 

So, 

um, with different teams we look at, you know, what's the win for this week? 'cause that's reminding them that they might have a project that's six months long, but they're actually achieving progress.

Mm-hmm. 

Emotional intelligence. Same with, um, you know, when are you most productive, morning or afternoon? Who are the three people that you spend the most time with? Is that an energy giver or a taker away? So, so many questions can give us a sense of just what's happening in our own world. Yeah. Last week I had a leader who was quite down on themself, very senior, and I brought to his awareness that four of his five key relationships mm-hmm.

Had gone through volatility in the last few months. 

Mm-hmm. 

So imagine how much energy he's spending taking care of these key relationships, and then beating himself up about not achieving yet. 

Yeah. 

So that bringing up that sense of emotional intelligence gave them a sense of like less gravity. 

Hmm.

Greater sense. Again, back to confidence. 

Yeah. So it's 

been very analytical and scientific in a way, but using emotions and actually current state to do that. 

Yeah. So 

that then people can decide, oh, this is what I need. 

Mm-hmm. 

Two weeks ago, someone who was overwhelmed knew that watching their kids play sport this weekend would be absolutely energizing.

So they set a boundary, did that, they sound like simple things, but they're actually really not in the world of business. Yeah. 

Yeah. So, um, I suppose there's two things, isn't there? Self-awareness, what you're talking about is how, how am I feeling in this moment? What are my energy levels? How's my mood?

What's my, um, how am I feeling personally? I see emotional intelligence as, um, um, how we interact with other people and how we perceive other people's feelings. How, how our behaviors are. And I think, uh, you know, things like 360 degree. Worse feedback and all of that sort of thing where I find a lot of people, um, you know, the majority of us are, are quite often unaware of the impact we have on others through behaviors that we, so that kind of emotion intelligence in terms of how your behaviors show up in the workplace and 

mm-hmm.

Feedback from peers and that sort of thing. Is that something you develop? Yeah. With? Yeah. Or is it more, yeah. 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Daniel Goldman's, you know, the guru of emotional intelligence, which my coaching certification was all about initially, the four parts, you know, the self-awareness. Yes.

Self-management. Social management. Yeah. And, um, social awareness. So it has to start from self though. Yeah, because how can be aware of your impact if you don't, for instance, think of yourself as having superpowers or you're not confident, right? Or how can you make really good decisions and not be aware of how they'll impact others if you don't know what your values are and the fact that your values is.

Really high on accuracy. So you wanna get something, right? 

Yeah. And 

somebody else wants to be creative. 

Yeah. So it is about, people know their strengths and, um, right. That's, that's part of that self-awareness piece that you do is helping people get to know what their strengths are relative to other people, so that Yes.

Confident in who they are, the value they bring. So what you're saying is you bring it all back to self. Acknowledging your own strengths and, um, is that's what's what you're saying starts with you. And then once you're very confident and, um, grounded in your own, um, you know, skills, values, all that sort of thing, then you can.

Um, sort of, um, then it's a, then it's looking at how you interact with other people. Is that what, is that what you're saying? Yeah. 

Yeah. I would say the know yourself part of being a competent leader is, you know, we call them superpowers. Mm-hmm. So if humans are always looking at negative and they always have a cabinet inner critic, it's actually foundational to go here are.

Who are my superpowers? 

Yeah. 

Here's the things that I really value and here's what I'm motivated by. Yeah. So there are three guiding lights. Once you have that, of course, it's about the impact you have in the world. Like how will you lead confidently? 

Yeah. With, 

you know, with empathy. Um, like you said, we all have a shadow self.

Hmm. 

We, um, all have blind spots. We have different impacts. So 360 is all of those tools that really shows up in the work we do to create high performing teams. 

Right. 

Okay. Our framework over the year has these two elements. One is how does the group interact together? 

Yep. But 

ultimately, if you're not aware of yourself in the team, 

yeah.

Then you're not gonna be as effective. So then you heighten the intentionality through having team days and through also having coaching. Yeah. 'cause then people are really, actually, they're hearing feedback. So we did that a few weeks ago. Like, how could I be more effective in this particular team?

Mm-hmm. 

When 

you hear that from other people and you trust them, 

yeah. 

You start leaning into that. 

Yeah. And is there a particular, um, tool that you like to use for that, that team engagement, self-awareness piece? Or is that, and 

well, all of our, um, programs are wedded in our own thought leadership, which of course, you know, from being in leadership development forever, like all of the, the experts in the world are infused in what you're doing.

Yeah. 

The way that we create it for a team is by focusing on how does the team know themself, so all of their strengths within the team, very intentionally. How do they actually navigate the fact that, you know, no team is. High performing by themself. Yeah, everyone's like quite self-driven and competing.

So if you're 

gonna create a really high performing team, then you need to talk about trust and you need need to navigate the self-doubt. Same with how teams are making decisions or which email you respond to. Who do you feel more loyal to? And then finally being yourself, which is of course about diverse teams and how do we have such difference in the team?

Yeah. And still steer forward. 

Yeah. So, um, appreciating and valuing and understanding each other's strengths and how everyone's different to each other, but how you can get along and compliment each other as a team. Is that Yeah. 

Yeah. I also think about what gets in the way of teams, you know, as themes.

It's passive conflict. That's a huge one. You know, everyone's, we're swimming in our own lane, but we are not really feeling comfortable enough. So what are the things that we avoid in business, especially for business owners feedback. 

Mm-hmm. 

We avoid conflict. Anything's difficult. 

Yeah, 

exactly. So these skills come out in the sessions we do with teams, especially for business owners, because business owners are often like really creative, entrepreneurial, and of course, as you know, we are not always taught the suite of how to lead.

So, yeah. Yeah. And, and so if you are actually feeling more confident about this is what we need to do to drive a great business, you can, you can be empathic and have a, a firm conversation around this is, these are the behaviors we need, this is how we're gonna operate as a team. 

Yeah. 

You know, so those pieces, again, it comes back to confidence with this suite of tools that they already have.

So we ingrain that in our team days. Yeah. Same with accountability. You know, talking to a private equity client, like how will we drive accountability just means we need to be a bit more comfortable, needs to be about trust and our own confidence where we can say, this is what we said we would do. Now let's look at how we're gonna do it.

And same across industries. 

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Um, and so when you talk about creating that trust environment, which is critical for a good, um, team culture, right? You've gotta have that, as you said, that trust there. Um, I'm sure you've come across teams where the trust is fractured because there are these passive conflicts or there's stuff mm-hmm.

Dynamics going on. Um, how do you navigate those? 

Yeah. Two things. I always like to do an assessment first. 

Mm-hmm. 

See how honest people will be about the trust in the team. Right. So you assess it. One, two, we'll do pre-interviews where, we'll, you'll start to hear real themes. 

Mm. So I 

don't, I don't set up, I don't, I don't.

Advocate that all teams are high performing because why would we be. Like naturally looking out for each other if we've never intentionally worked on that. 

Mm-hmm. 

Like everyone is naturally thinking about themselves. Yeah. If it seems obvious or the values aligned, we might start to focus more on the way It's the me and the way.

Yeah. So, 

normalizing that. We assess it, we do interviews, and then, um, our style is quite care confrontational. 

So 

when you can sense that in a team day, you will know from the level of vulnerability and the way people are responding each other how, what trust is looking like. 

So we'll 

bring that up in a, you know, a 

Hmm.

What's in, in fact, a month ago there was a conversation that there was a bit of a emotion in the group 

mm-hmm. In the 

team dynamic. 

Mm-hmm. And 

it got swept over, straight away. Mm-hmm. And so I said to the group, what just happened there? Just to get a sense of when somebody address it that's talking about their trust and vulnerability, who's gonna be brave enough to say something?

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And you're encouraging that sense of courage, trust, and connection, so that they can achieve results? Yes, it, it has a clear goal in mind and it happens over time. And so did someone come out and say something at that? Yeah, yeah, exactly. One person said, oh, we're discussing this. And the other person said, but we're having a conversation underneath and it's really about this, and there's, we're uncomfortable with that.

And that was a breakthrough moment. And it's actually why we have very specific activities with our team framework so that we can break things down and just make it easier for someone not to cc 

and 

blame and shame and do all of these things, but to be really high performing. And again. It's, it's with a sense of normalcy.

So it's our team. We have a three person team in Perth, and then people around the world, we meet every two months for the whole day. Mm-hmm. Just to intentionally work on, um, what's your value, what's important to your life. Like, let's look at how we might miscommunicate and misinterpret 

and 

just being able to keep having this constant, intentional focus on the team.

Allows us not just to have a great culture, but to be really high performing so that when we are stressed and we have extreme deadlines, we already know, oh, you are gonna get triggered and you are gonna do this. But you know, we're in it together. It's more me. It's more we not me. 

Yeah. 

And that's when teams break apart as well, don't they?

Through you. Global teams, which we have a lot of as well. So we're keeping that cohesion so they can just sort of nudge each other or pick up the phone instead of blow out things. 

Mm-hmm. And 

that, that's effectively what are you doing there? The outcome is you're saving time. 

Yeah. 

And time equals results and financial benefit and businesses growing.

Yeah. And the fact that, um. You know, um, so few people, you know, and, um, well according to the research, 85% of people don't have what they say is self-awareness. So basically all of us have some level of blindness. Right. And, um, I'm probably like you a bit of a personal growth junkie. I've always been into looking at, you know, I've got a whole shelf of shadow books on shadow work and all this stuff.

Yeah. But, but I find some people are really resistant to going there, like, um, yes. And I'd love to hear your thoughts. Is it about helping that person feel. Safe and that there is trust. Um, um, how do you get someone who's really resistant? Say, say, I'm thinking of, you know, examples where there's clear negative behaviors at a leadership level in the workplace.

Mm-hmm. 

Whether it's could be micromanaging or it's, um, leaving certain people outta communications or it's passive aggression, or those kind of negative behaviors that happen at a leadership level, which is really hard for them, for the people below them too. You know, to have this, you know, thing that you are trying to create, which is this positive work culture, and often those people who are really dogmatic like that or 

mm-hmm.

It's hard to, I'd love to hear your experience on how do you help those people soften to the idea of looking at their blind spots, if you know what I mean? 

Yeah. I think, I mean, two ways, firstly. Coaching and development is about enhancing your performance. Ultimately, you must be open to it. So we don't take clients where, um, we're told this is someone we need to fix.

Um, we, you know, if I have a conversation with someone, I'm like, this will accelerate like who you are and grow you as a person, expand. And that will in, of course involve some reflection and development and time. If you are resistant to that, then it's not gonna work because it's not our work to do. 

Yeah.

But 

we're really good at is creating the guide, the pathway, the accountability. Mm-hmm. So I fundamentally that that is part of our business. So if you're a dysfunctional team, but you are being dragged over. Then forced by somebody else. Well, you'll just use all that energy to be resistant and then say that's one.

The second part is, um, of course people are not always focused on their own development. Mm. There are varying levels of that. So what I'll do within teams, if there's varying levels, it is. Ask coaching questions in a circle. So, you know, sometimes it will be, um, passive aggressive comments in a group that could easily be left, you know, in a team.

It takes some courage to do that. I wouldn't have done that earlier in my career. Okay. And now I do, you know, oh, did anyone notice? Um, something happened just there. Okay. Yes. How was that interpreted? Was that the intention? That's a very kind way of you, not you, you leader in the group may not be intentionally doing something negative or you may not be aware of the impact, but it has an impact.

Yeah. 

So I feel quite, um, drawn to at least share that and have other people talk about the impact. And then we have choices, same within coaching. Um, of course we experience, you know, people who may not be open to that. And then I will get curious about it. 'cause I'm not trying to prove myself or ourself.

This is a way to grow if you are open to it. But I can definitely ask questions. 

Yeah. And 

then I'm quite confrontational about, this is what I noticed in team development. What's the impact on your team? What's happening? And that often can spark oh, if people feel safe and if I'm doing it not. To point it out at your detriment, but to show you something that you may not know.

Yeah, yeah. So it's non-threatening and safe and Yeah. Non-judgmental. Yeah. Yeah. 

And the third part I always think is incredibly important is if the leader of the team is watching that behavior go by, then as much as we are going to do as the coach, it's not the same. So I'll heavily encourage a leader.

This is what I've noticed. I really suggest you have a trio conversation, a one-on-one, a feedback. Let me give you all the tools. 

Mm. 

And support you doing that. 

Yeah. Um, 

so we're at that extent where I'm like, this is the value Yeah. That we provide in working with you, seeing all the pieces and his. Again, your choice and then we're gonna respect your choice around 

ultimately 

the goal you're trying to get a high performing team.

If there's anything in the way, 

then 

our role is to highlight something and then see how we can best get there. Yeah, but it's your work. 

Yeah. Fascinating that early you, what you were saying is, I guess early in your career you wouldn't have necessarily had the confidence to call out those things in. Um, and it's, um, and so what you would just let it slide and then have conversations individually is that, and 

I think that's true for everybody early in their career, like our stripes and our experience and we get more confident with our voice in the room and you know, also authority plays out.

Yeah. Like, 

oh, that's the senior leader. So I think about training, you can be an order taker. 

Yeah. And I've 

learned from greats who taught me that, you know, you will get asked to do this in a leadership development business. Like do this in an hour. There's two different ways. There's Yes, absolutely. 'cause you said now, or there's actually the best outcome is if you do it in this time or in this way.

Mm-hmm. 

So I feel like, because I've probably been taught by people who fundamentally believe in this and then done instructional design and gone to NYU and worked with all these people as I went, I, I feel compelled to be like, this is the better way to consult and do it. 

Yeah. 

You don't start out with that broomed confidence.

You have to experience it, go through discomfort, especially when there's power. Yeah. Yeah. I actually remember doing that early on Kate, and being incredibly passionate, like, we can't do this online. It was at, it was at the investment bank. It was just somebody who, two levels above me, very hierarchical there, and I fought and convinced them to do it in this different way.

Mm-hmm. And I 

thought I was doing the right thing. 

Mm-hmm. 

But I actually ended up getting some quite strong feedback that I was too pushy. 

Mm. 

Again, back to your point around shadow on things, we don't know 

what I 

would see as passionate. 

Yeah. So that was 

a great lesson. Same reason why I have, I did a 360 last year.

Same reason why I have a coach. 

Mm-hmm. We don't 

need to constantly be, um. Going up. I'm far softer on my own pressure. Like I'm a very driven, high performing person, so it would be easy for me to constantly think, why haven't I done it yet and what else could I do? But I've really learned that that actually is quite a strong pressure for clients and for myself too.

Yeah. 

So far 

more accepting of these are all the parts. 

Mm-hmm. 

When I'm in optimum state, which is why I reenergizing. Which is why being intentional, which is why doing the work we love is important. This is how you know I'll show up and then, okay. I am still human. Yeah. I think a bit of grace with that is really important because again, as a theme, there's so much time spent on what we haven't done.

Yeah. Pushing down that, that it's not resourceful and energizing to what we're trying to achieve. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. And what would you say has been one of your, um, most proud breakthroughs in, in corporate teams and leadership? 

Ooh, that's a big question. Um, I mean, I had one just last week that I thought, I've been thinking like, why was that so meaningful for me?

Um, because it, it could sound small, but it was what it meant. As a ricochet Yeah. Ripple effect. 

Yeah. 

So I've been working with a client in New York, um, in financial services for a decade now. 

Oh wow. Yeah. 

And you know, first I'm really proud of that and I get to fly back to the US and do this really meaningful work.

Mm-hmm. So that, you know, so the work's impactful. And of course there's an ego thing 'cause I get to do it even though I'm in the other side of the world. And, um. But I had this meeting with the Global Head last week and very like wonderful and also intimidating, incredibly senior. And the thing that meant something to me is that I had so much knowledge over the 10 years and that we had this beautiful, candid conversation.

So I was very authentic. Here are the things that I have seen for a really long time, and I think they could work even more effectively. 

Mm-hmm. 

And he. Wasn't, I wasn't trying to appease him. 

Mm. 

And he's not looking at me as somebody, just tell me these generic things. I thought very intentionally, if I was running a global business to the scale you are, and you've had somebody come in, what would I tell you?

Really small and big as to how you could enhance this. 

Mm. So I felt 

incredibly proud of showing up as myself in that conversation of prepping. Of the fact, I think this is true for bus all business owners. It's never the one moment, it's the 10 years of work. Mm. It's all the things that you did to even get the opportunity to be speaking so candidly for an hour to tell somebody like that.

Yeah. 

That was a little moment. 

Yeah. You 

know, a little but big moment. And it, it reminds me in businesses, which is I think a lonely world and uh, you know, you need to be validating yourself and motivating, and we get constant rejection. Um, and I'm in the good side of the world where I'm totally infusing people, um, that.

It's all baby steps. 

Mm. 

And it's all, you know, following our light and igniting our own confidence. And the other one is, um, a women's leadership program where, um, uh, there's alumni, you know, like 50 alumni now that have, have created a community over years and years and years, and they come back for coaching and they're, they've just, they've succeeded, 

you know, like 

really elevated.

I've really stayed in contact and, um. And probably what we are doing now, look, I'm getting, I'm getting carried away with all the celebration now, but we're creating, you know, community of toll poppies. Um, we want to create a million people who are just getting all of our thought leadership, who wake up in the morning, see a two minute video, and then they have like a much better meeting.

And they just 

themselves are more confident in whatever they're doing. 

Mm-hmm. 

Across the industries. Like that's something that I'm proud of making progress on. Still a long way to go, but I want everyone to actually have access versus just the organizations and the big business work that we do. Look 

forward to invest in it.

Yeah. 

Yeah. Absolutely. And, and actually that was part of creating something online, Kate. 'cause you and I would love in person and we love over time. 

Mm. So it was 

a really big thing for me to let go of that and just think. What could I give you if you were 20 starting your career, or you are 30 and you could just do something for an hour and then feel more confident?

Yeah, and most importantly, you would raise your awareness about yourself. 

Yeah. This is 

not the 10 best tips, this is the golden ingredients about yourself that. Truly, truly serve you. Mm. So that was part of the Confident Leader online course. Right. And then of course, if you, if you're somebody who's invested in development, maybe you'll find us and do something.

If you are not, that might be enough. And Wonderful. Then we've, we've got you to stand a bit taller anyway. Yeah. But just, 

you won't know 

about 

it. And that course is available online, on your website, is that right? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. And it's, um. Um, bite-size videos, you're saying like, how, how does it look?

Yeah. So if you were doing it, it's an hour, it's online and there's all these practical tips, but really there's so much reflection about knowing yourself. So you're gonna know your motivators, 

right? 

Value, superpowers. You're gonna trust yourself more 'cause you'll understand how your brain works and now you're gonna make better decisions.

Mm-hmm. And 

being yourself, you're gonna step more, you know, into your own quirkiness and how you prioritize. Right. So you come away with all these handouts that are actually giving you practical tools and you feel more confident, and then from there you can, you have your own pathways as to what you can do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. And, um, what's, what's, um, some kind of fun experience you can tell us about, whether it's in the UK or the USA or Holland. Something that, um, something that was a, a fun, something to end with on a funny note or interesting. Um. Interesting. 

Holland just takes me back to, um, but then I was 18.

Mm-hmm. Um, 

the very first weekend going, you know, just arrived. I didn't pick Holland to live in. I was just trying to be open-minded. Yep. And we went to, lived 

in Holland for six years, by the way, just so you know. Yeah, I know. 

I remember. Yeah. Yeah, 

exactly. So you, you, you were an exchange student, right? And you just said, I wanna go to Europe.

You left it open. Is that how that happened 

or, I, I had studied French and so I wanted to go to France. And then the age didn't work out. So then you, you got a choice. Like, would you like to be open and go somewhere else? So I had to look up Holland and 

Holland's very different to France. Yeah, yeah, 

yeah.

Um, so you might have had this experience too. The very first funny weekend was that we went to a spa, we drove across the border, went to Germany, and then everyone got naked. Yep. My mom, my dad. Yeah. That, so to me that represents something funny, but also something that shifts your perspective. Yeah. Of like, the world isn't one way.

Yeah. 

Beautiful ways. It is. And, and that's just showed up in, when I had a daughter, how I met my husband living in three, four, you know, four countries. The assumptions that we make about people, just not true. 

Mm-hmm. 

You know, like every, everything. 

Yeah, the nudity thing is fascinating, isn't it? Because, um, yeah.

The fact that I, I, I have a, a, um, a stark memory of being in Germany, very similar culture to Holland, right? Yes. They're just very, very comfortable with nudity. Yes. They had unisex change rooms at gyms and things like that went from there. Um. To just being naked with lot. And actually, I had a girlfriend from Perth come over and her parents were British, so grew up very prudish, you know, and she came to see, we'd done a spinning class, went into the change rooms, and she was like, oh my god, you know, didn't want to get naked in front of all these people.

And I was like, just, just pretend it's normal, you know? 'cause you're, you're steps out right now by, by freaking out. Like just, yeah. So we went from there where everything's just so open over to. Then for some reason, the next week we're in London. We went to a swimming pool there, and then the way you get your little key, you get your own little cubicle, you, you change, nobody sees, you get undressed.

Yes. And you go into the swimming pool and then you come out and you do the same. And just that total start contrast between cultures 

where. 

It's, it's fascinating, isn't 

it? It is fascinating. Different context. You just reminded me. I'm on a, I'm actually on my own leadership development, organizational development program now for myself.

Oh. You know, like to developing people. I'm on, um, a beautiful one called I Gold Goes for a year and a half, five different modules, 28 people around the world. 

Mm-hmm. 

I'm going to Bud House next month to be with them. Um, they are from all over the world. I've never been, as much as I think I'm open-minded, this is like blowing my mind as to you know, how to understand people.

And, um, yeah. The last, the last time we were together, um, somebody talked about the concept of time. 

You know, like, 

okay, we should be on time. And then there was this huge open conversation about, and everybody thought completely differently. 

Mm-hmm. 

Just about something that we take for granted in, in a western Australian world.

Hmm. So 

that is one of the fun things. 'cause I am finding out about my own expectations of, of the world and how it's so much. More beneficial to be accepting and lighter and supportive about it, which is real work in itself. Um, yeah. And confronting, you can imagine like really confronting, really fun too.

Yeah. I think that letting go is a really important um, yes. Emotional intelligence tool that or what's, um, a philoso, it's kind of an approach to life, isn't it? Definitely. Yeah. That's why Mel, sorry. You go, 

there you go. That's why Mel. I was just thinking about Mel Robbins book. Oh, you know, like these simple concepts like letting go, giving yourself permission.

They always sound simple, but that's why I think holistic coaching and coming back to confidence and yourself is so important because these are the things that get in our way 

as 

business owners and leaders, like letting go of, um, business expectations, even the definition of happiness, like, um, getting what you want, 

comma 

in the time you want it.

Yeah, so just think about how that relates to us. You know, I could really focus on the things that I haven't done yet. Mm-hmm. Just like many business owners versus Oh, but I like simple things, you know? Well, we did get married, we did have children. These fundamental things. The business is growing. I've got an amazing team.

Look what we are doing. Same for business owners and really high performing leaders, which we'll end up working with. 'cause they're the people who invest in themselves too. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Um, so that permission and letting go and that allows you to actually accelerate and that, 

that 

takes intention. 

Yeah. I find the more I let go, the more magical life becomes.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I remember reading the Surrender Experiment years and years ago. 

Yes. 

But I, I couldn't quite embody it. I still, it find it challenging, but 

mm-hmm. 

In my mind, the more I embrace that whole philosophy, you know, the, the more magic. It's almost like our linear, logical brain thinks it knows what's, what's best for us.

But it's good to have some intention, isn't it, about what you wanna create or so, but not being too rigid and fixed. Yes. Then you miss out on the magic that happens when you just. Allow yourself to experience life and be guided by life and 

Yeah, I think so too. I think of, um, that within business as in, you know, I'll, I'll be very goal orientated.

This is who I wanna work with. I'll meet somebody. I have this, you know, amazing feel or this is the way we're going to achieve 1,000,012 parties. 

Yeah, that's 

how it was originally. And now, um. Now. Yeah, it's, I'm like, oh, look at that. It's, it may not be Pathway One, it might be Pathway six 

Mm. 

And that is not how I thought we would get there, but it's Right.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just like people's decisions are not actually about us. It's like people don't treat us and it's related to us. It's about them. 

Mm. So then 

what's mine And what's yours comes into business in life as well. Yeah. So, you know, they didn't say yes or no to a deal. Purely because of mine. Just letting that go, as in well, the right people will find us, and I think we do that the longer we're in business.

Yeah. Trying to create a beautiful, happy life with what I love. With the team. So, um, I don't want it to be too stressful and too this, and sometimes it's easy to lose track of that. I've definitely lost track of that when, you know, when I had a baby early on, I was trying to keep the business going. 

Yeah.

And 

now it feels more expansive and you want everyone to constantly come up fairer and have intentionality. 

Mm. Coaching 

and development what you are doing that helps people have that. 

Mm. 

If we are too busy, we can't get it. We can't take a 

breath. No, no. That taking it, creating that space is really important.

How old is your, is it your daughter? Yes. Yeah. How old is she now? She's three and a half. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so you're really juggling all the things at the moment. 

Oh, all the fun things. Yeah. But that, that's the opposite to burn out as well, isn't it? And emotional intelligence. You're learning everything at once.

Oh yeah. Growing a business and a and a family at the same time. Just the hardest challenge, isn't it? But very fulfilling, but yes. Yeah. Stretches us in all the ways. Yes. Well, Kim, thank you. It's been so lovely, um, having you come to share your wisdom with us today on leadership and becoming confident, self-aware leaders, so really appreciate you sharing that with us.

And so if people wanna find you, they can go to tall Poppies, um, us. Is that correct? 

Yes. On our website, we're 

also 

posting videos, four videos every week, full of minutes, segments of thought leadership that's just out there in the world to help you. So they're full of tips, so you can join the LinkedIn community and then experience that all the time.

I would love for that to help you in driving your own success performance business. 

When I open your homepage, um, where do I see those videos? Or is it, 

oh, so website if you would like, um, to partner with us or learn more. One, two, or, if you could, if you would like to experiment with confident leadership for yourself.

That's that online course top right. And then if you join us on LinkedIn and Instagram, Facebook, we have social media for posts every week. 

Oh, okay. Yeah. Which is us 

genuinely giving you tips of, you know, all of these key leadership topics. 

Okay. So people can find you as tall poppies on LinkedIn or on Facebook and get access to this content 

and Instagram.

Yep. 

Yeah. Great. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you. Good luck on your mission to, to um, develop a hundred, sorry, a million tall puppies. 

Yeah. Thank you Kate. That was beautiful. 

No doubt you'll get there. 

Thank you. 

Nice to have you with us and we will, um, look forward to staying in touch. Thank you, Kim. Pleasure.