Ep #13 | The Long Game: The Anti-Hustle Guide to Building a Business That Thrives

Welcome to Episode 13 of the Roadmap to Business Success series, and the final episode of Quadrant 3: Grow Smart | Scale with Ease!

54% of founders are experiencing burnout. 75% report anxiety episodes. And two thirds have considered walking away from their business altogether, not because the business failed, but because they did.

In this episode Kate and Sam get honest about hustle culture, what it actually costs you, and how to build a business that goes the distance without breaking the person running it.

"Your energy protects your business. Your systems protect your team. Your team protects your customers. Break any link in that chain and you cannot grow — because you cannot deliver."

In this episode, you will learn:

• The burnout statistics that should stop every business owner in their tracks: 54% founder burnout rate, 75% reporting anxiety, and 70% citing working more than 60 hours a week as the primary cause — and why burnout, not bad strategy, is the biggest predictor of small business failure
• What growth actually looks like for you: Why the first and most important question is not how to scale, but what success actually means to you — and why the answer has to fit your personality, your zone of genius and the life you actually want
• The scaling myths that are keeping business owners stuck: Why "if you're not growing you're dying" is false, why fast scaling without solid foundations creates the exact businesses that break founders, and why revenue is vanity and profit is sanity
• The identity shift from technician to business owner: Why the hardest part of scaling is not strategy or systems — it's letting go of the identity of being the person who does everything, and why that shift does not have to be all or nothing
• Process debt: The business equivalent of never cleaning out your filing system — and why every new hire just inherits a mess that compounds over time if you do not fix it first
• Why systems protect your team: The difference between a good SOP and a great one — and why documenting the thinking behind the task, not just the steps, is what actually allows someone else to do it well
• The control paradox: Why perfectionism and the need for control are among the biggest obstacles to growth — and why the business owner is almost always the one who needs to change, not the team
• Zone of genius as a scaling strategy: Why you should never hire people to push you out of the work that energises you — and how to think about building a team that fills the rungs of the ladder you do not want to occupy
• The wave principle: Why exertion requires equal rest and recovery — and why the spaciousness most business owners resist is actually where the magic happens
• Uncoupling your time from your revenue: Real examples of how to scale a business so that your output is no longer dependent entirely on your hours — from off-the-shelf product lines to group coaching to AI systems

Kate and Sam also share the story of a landscaping couple who spent three years resisting letting go — and what happened the moment they finally did. They discuss the bank code personality types and how your dominant type determines the kind of business you will enjoy running. And they tackle the question every business owner needs to ask: if you would tell your partner to quit a job that demanded this much of them, why are you accepting it from yourself?

This episode wraps up Quadrant 3: Grow Smart | Scale with Ease.
Next up — Quadrant 4: Lead with Impact. Self-awareness, emotional intelligence, values-based leadership and the inner game of building a business you are proud of.

Join the Workshop:
Kate and Sam are hosting the Grow Smart Workshop on Wednesday 24 June, 9–10:30am AWST | 11am–12:30pm AEST — bring your questions on scaling, business models, hiring and growth and get coached live.

🎟️ Attend LIVE: $89 | 🎧 Replay: $49

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Kate De Jong, PhD | Inspired Business 🌐 Website: https://katedejong.com/ 📱 Instagram: @katedejong.inspiredbusiness ✉️ Email: kate@katedejong.com

Sam Morris | The O8 🌐 Website: https://www.theo8.com/ 📱 Instagram: @the_o8crew ✉️ Email: sam@theo8.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Scale your business without the burnout. This is the Thriving Business Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome back to the Thriving Business Podcast, everybody. Nice to be here with you again. I am here in Perth today. Sam Morris, my co-host, is over there in Melbourne. Hi, Sam. Hello, Kate. So we get to wrap up quadrant three today of the Thriving Business Wheel, which is all about scaling with ease and growing smart.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Yes. So we've this episode is a good one.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

It is. Yeah. Yeah. Some juicy stuff to get into and some philosophical stuff, which I always enjoy. Yes. Both some practical, very tangible stuff, but also it's it's in it goes hand in hand with some philosophical conversations around burnout and protecting your energy and you know making sure that you protect your business's most valuable asset, which is you.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Yeah. And I think that that is the one thing that most business owners tend to ignore until it's too late, which is why this episode is so important.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

So we'd we've we've called today's episode the long game and the anti-hustle guide to building a business that thrives. So Sam and I have been in um well entrenched in recent times. I'm sorry, in um in a past in past eras um in the hustle culture. So we both worked with a coaching company that was very much about the hustle and grind. And yeah, we know what that's like and chose not to be part of it anymore, and thinking there's got to be another way um of doing business that um feels relaxed and with a sense of ease and and joy. Most importantly, why are we doing it if we're not having fun and enjoying the ride, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, and I think that business owners kind of need to catch up in that respect because uh what we know about the current employment, you know, and HR industry is that people are motivated to work uh not primarily for money. It's about work-life balance and about a lot of other things. I mean, obviously, money is a necessity, but beyond that, uh people aren't just showing up every day to get the bigger pay packet. There's there's a lot more that goes into this nowadays. And I think business owners need to catch up not only as people who employ other people, but also in how they treat themselves as business owners.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah, yeah. People are happy to take the lower paycheck if it means they have more flexibility and they're able to pick up their kids from school or yeah, and and that money is not the biggest driver for a lot of people, depending on what phase of life they're in and what their values are and all of that. So we thought it would be good to start off with some very interesting statistics around founder burnout or small business owner burnout.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

You shared some good ones before, Sam.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yes, so I've got them here on my screen, and they they horrify me a bit, actually, Kate. 25 to 26. This is so this is current data. 54% burnout rate amongst founders. 75% of founders are reporting anxiety episodes. What we are finding, and what the the statistics are telling us, is that the biggest predictor of small business failure, and particularly those that are running solo enterprises, it's not the strategy and the product and the marketing and all the things that they think they've got to work on. It's actually burnout.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Yeah, yeah, burning out for trying to do all the stuff.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Burning ourselves to the ground trying to run these businesses.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, yeah. So today we're talking about growing for longevity and grow growing and scaling with ease so that you go the distance and actually enjoy the process because otherwise, yeah, why are we doing it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah. And I think we all get so caught up in thinking that we have to have all the bells and whistles and we overwhelm ourselves with it all. And I I certainly feel good knowing that I've reached the point where I'm like, actually, you don't need all that stuff. You can you can let it go. Uh, you know, going viral on Instagram is not going to be the make or break of my business. It's going to help in some respects, but that's not what I need to work hard for. Yeah. You know, and the and the topics that we've covered in this podcast series so far are really important ones to think about where you need to channel your energy and what you need to let go of.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, and we st and we started off this quadrant looking at your business model, which is very important in terms of that's that's the you know, the the process by which you pass money through your business, and and that model in itself has to be sustainable and um yeah, and putting some real intentional thought into that, you know, envisaging where do you want to be in five, ten years, um, and how do you how do you go that distance in a way that's not going to burn you out, that you're actually going to enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah, if I think about you know the business model that you and I had when we met, and it was predominantly one-on-one coaching, private coaching, that that's where we were at at that point. But if you do basic math, if you step back from that and think logically about your capacity, you only have a certain number of hours in a day. And Cain, I know there were days you and I, you know, doing like 14 coaching sessions in a day. Oh, that was very unable absolutely wrecked by it. Yeah. Yeah. You can't build a business on exhaustion.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

No, that's right. Yeah, and um, an interesting stat, two-thirds of founders said they considered leaving their startup venture altogether, not because the business failed, but because they did. Um, and and 70% of small business owners and entrepreneurs cite working more than 60 hours a week as their primary burnout cause. Yes, yeah, and you and I have talked often about success in small business is often actually just staying in the game and being there for the long haul. And so today, because so many people start businesses, right? The um every year hundreds of thousands of people start businesses, but around half of those just don't stick around. So you're actually winning if you just stay in the uh manage to stay in the game. And and over time, the the the odds get a lot kinder towards us because you know it's it's um we start to figure things out. And um, today's episode we are going to focus on how do you scale for longevity and grow if that's your goal. And I think we should probably start as we did in the um the business model episode, getting really clear about what is your end goal, what does growth look like to um to you, or do you even want to grow? Because some businesses um are perfectly happy um in you know where they're sitting in terms of revenue, and um that their goal, then their main goal is not to to grow necessarily, but to employ yeah, just maintain where they are. Yeah, yeah. So you've got to design at a pace that lets you still be here in 10 years and yeah, um, yeah. So uh this was a good message here. Energy management is not a luxury, it's the foundation that your entire business is built upon. So yeah, let's if we start off with um looking at what does scaling look like for you and what does what does growth, what is you know, what does the ideal business look like for you? Before we hopped on the um um podcast today, you and I were looking at a a well-known entrepreneur in the Australian space who's a business coach for seven and um seven plus um figure business owners. So you know, dealing with million-dollar um up to $100 million plus companies. And it's clear she's the type of personality that loves um, you know, that action lifestyle. And you and I sort of said it deciding on what kind of what the end goal is also has to fit with your personality, your natural strengths, your zone of genius, all that stuff. And it reminded me when I when I saw this business coach, it looked like she's amazing, she's an ex-model, and that helps as well, having had a platform, um, where you know, obviously platform is everything in business because you know, the more people you can reach, the the easier growing is. But um yeah, it was interesting. It took me back to the personality types, and we are going to be doing a deep dive in this on the leadership quadrant that's coming up. But I think it's relevant just to recap here for the the um I always love to revert to the bank code type, Sam. Yes, and I'll just give a very quick um recap here, but that's the the four different um it's called the the bank personality coding methodology, and it's interesting because different types um resonate more with the different business types. So um where are we? I did bring them up here. Uh so you've got the um let's start with very quickly the blueprints types, they're the planners, the systems people, the rule followers. So they need processes, procedures, and clear expectations. We call them um inside the box because they they like they like straight lines and things to be very defined. Then you've got the action types, and we call them the outside the box types because if there's a box, they'll trample on it. And those are the entrepreneurs, the risk takers, the results-driven people, and they love freedom, adventure, winning, they love you know, um, aesthetics and luxury and materialistic things. Then you've got the nurturing types, they're more the people person, that's you and I. The relationship builders, the heart of the team. We love people, community, relationships, giving harmony and making a difference. And finally, you've got the knowledge types. So they're the people that research, they're the experts, the analytical analytical thinkers. They value learning, competence, logic, quality, you know, and we all have those four types in us, but whichever one dominates for you or two, determine the type of business you run. So, Sam, you and I lead, both of us, of you know, we're obviously peas in a pod, but we lead with nurture and knowledge. So for us, it's all about going deep with exploring things and researching and understanding. And then we like to build community and have authentic relationships. And yeah, when you look at when I look at those types that are running these massive, you know, $100 million coaching for $100 million plus companies. Um, several of them appear to be very driven by the materialism and the winning and the and sort of the um the fame and the reputation that really drives them. But I think, yeah, it's really important to do a bit of self-reflection in the beginning. I think just to, and I think the next quadrant that we get into will help people with this because the type of person you are determines how you're going to scale with ease and what's driving you, what motivates you. And so I know personally I've worked with action clients who, you know, they love the the big rah-rah, and I'm just not the right coach for them, right? Because it's not I though the the things that drive them don't drive me. Do you know what I mean? And so, yeah, and and that's about helps a lot with helping you find get really specific on your um avatar and your your ideal client because the people we can best help often are the ones most like us, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

So yes, not always, but and and what I love about any type any of the personality profiling systems that you want to use is that they do, you know, bank runs on a sliding scale. So there are extremes to those personality types.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

You know, and so what I love about this is that you know, you're able to recognize that anybody who seems to be opposite to you on the scale to the extreme is not going to be someone that's gonna want to play in your playground.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

No, because then their focus is not on so much on the you know the connection, the relationship. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I thought it was just important to um mention that because we can often, when we're online and we see these people that are really successful and they're obviously doing really well, we can and we can end up getting imposter syndrome or feeling feeling like, oh, well, I'm never gonna get there. And and I think the message we want to give people, you can run a really successful, profitable business in a way that feels really aligned with who you are. And you don't need to be doing, you know, you don't need to be building the platform of 50,000 plus followers, etc., to run a really good, solid, profitable business. And I think it's about knowing yourself, knowing who you are, and most likely the people that listen to us in our audience, and we know a lot of them, um, they are like us, they're very much about the relationships and the authenticity and uh and the knowledge that they're really they seek deep knowledge about things to be able to run good businesses um rather than just get the right formula to go and make money, you know. So it's different, different. Um I just think um because we are the the epicenter of our business, it you know, we do tend to um attract people similar to us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

And I I'm gonna say this, Kate, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether you agree with this or not. My belief is that personal growth comes before business growth. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, I think you need to understand and develop yourself as a business owner personally, so that you can then understand how you make decisions and how you best operate, because you need those tools in your toolkit to grow your business. You you do. There's I don't see how you can get around it.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Well, your business is just a reflection of you, right? Yeah, yeah. And they uh there's a quote that says, Every next level of growth requires a new level of you. It's a it's a new layer, it's a new expansion of your mindset of the way you think. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yes. And I think I don't want people to get confused between understanding who they are and and being self-ridiculing about their personality, because in business there'll be some parts of your personality that you'll need to leverage, and there'll be some parts that you're gonna have to work on to improve. Yeah. So it's not just bad news to everybody, it's just about being willing to grow personally.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I'm I can't wait to get into that quadrant. I don't, yes. And and we initially we were calling that quote the final quadrant of the thriving business wheel. You know, we've we've we've looked at revenue generation, then we looked at profitability, and then it's this current quadrant, which is capacity and growth, and the final one is leadership. Initially we'd called it mindset, but then mindset is part of leadership, obviously, but it's as a business owner, you actually are required to lead, whether you're a solopreneur or not. You are putting yourself out there in the market. You are having to attract and bring in retained clients, you have to lead your customers. So, yeah, to say that you're not a leader in small business, you absolutely are, or have to step into those shoes in order to grow the business the way you want.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah. So let's tackle um number one on my list for tackling any kind of growth in business apart from the things we've already discussed. But the number one in line is the business owner limiting the capacity of the business because they are of the mindset that they are the only person who can do things.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yes. And you and I have worked with so many clients who have struggled with this.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

And yeah, in in many businesses, the only path to growth is to hire a team or to um, you know, I'm thinking of a client who was a landscape um uh maintenance business, for example. And there was no, she and her husband were burning out doing all the jobs themselves, and the only option was to bring people in to do the work so they could manage the business, and then and having virtual assistants to help them with the administrative load. Like that was just the clear and only pathway because continuing uh to continuing along was not only bringing in enough money for them, but also burning them out, as we have talked about. So that resistance that you mentioned to letting go and thinking that you're the only one that can do all the things, it is a real block to growth. And it was a three, I kid you not, a three-year process to get this couple to the point where they could let go finally. The amazing thing, when they finally actually let go and allowed someone else in to, and this is initially just to do the administrative side of the business, once they actually felt the um the benefits of that and the ease that suddenly all this work was getting done and they weren't involved in it, then the next thing they'll they wanted to hire their second virtual assistant and third, you know. So it really was a mindset shift, but so much resistance involved in letting go in the beginning. And I know you've got experience with that too, Sam.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Oh, definitely. Oh, so many stories.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Including your own husband. And I'm like, that could be an interesting um um example because I mean, you guys have been in business together 20 years, almost.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah, over 20 years. And I think one of the traps that he falls into, please. I hope he doesn't listen, he does listen to the podcast. We love you, Dave. I I just say to him, please stop listening because I talk about you way too much. He's always he's always my example of what not to do. So he's been doing this for 25 years.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

25, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yes. What we all do as human beings is that when we are so comfortable with things and when things become second nature to us, we take that for granted and we operate from the assumption that it's easy and I know how to do it. Why isn't it easy for everybody else? Then you hire people who don't have 25 years experience doing what you do, and they can't perform. Like it's impossible for them to perform, you know, because they don't have 25 years. So the expectations on them are very high, and they're coming with limited experience, you know, and then and they don't understand how your business runs and how you want things done. That's setting people up for failure. So then we shift from it's not hard, everyone should be able to do it. If I can do it, everyone can do it. Then we shift to, oh, I am the only one that can do it, because the brain is always looking for evidence of truth. Whatever story you want to tell yourself, you will your brain will actively seek ways in which to reinforce that as a truth. For sure. Yeah. But then you move into the zone of, oh, I'm the only one that can do it. Not true. Where this all falls down is simply lack of documenting how your brain processes going from A to B. What steps did you take and why did you take them? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

And this is where AI is helping us a lot these days because it can it can help us develop those SOPs, as we call them, standard operating procedures, right? Which is what you your business needs to um when you bring on a new um person into your team, there needs to be really clear expectations and role descriptions and task descriptions.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yes. But I think one of the failings of operating procedures is just listing step one, do this, step two, do that, you know. And then you give it to someone, and honestly, it's like you gave them IKEA instructions for a flat pack. That's because there's pictures and step one, step two, step three doesn't mean that people can follow it. Really successful operating procedures, like I said before, include the thinking process behind it. So you're not only teaching people the functional side of things, but also how to think about it and how to approach it. And I think that's where you're going to get much better success for staff in being able to do what you do so that your business can grow in capacity.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Yeah. And back to that photocopy study where the word because is so powerful. If someone understands why this task is important and where it fits into the bigger Picture, they're really happy to do it the right way because they understand the importance of it. So, yeah, that's a whole art of just doing SOPs well, right? Yes. But it's interesting what you were saying about the identity shifts that your husband needed, needs to make, which he's struggling with. And and um, sorry, Dave, that we use you as the example, but it happens so so often, right? That um you and I have worked with so many clients where they've gone from being the technician, as Michael Gerber from the eMyth would call it, they're the technician in the business doing the thing, doing the craft of the business. And then they have to step into the manager and the entrepreneurial role, um, depending on what the needs are ideally both, but in Dave's case, he's got to go from being the technician to just purely a manager, right? And that I think you were saying is a big identity shift for him.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yes, yes. The way he his perception of self is that he is a worker. And he is, I haven't even discussed this with him yet. He, to my mind, is struggling with shifting his persona to one of I don't have to be the worker that is out on the tools all the time because I'm the only one that can do it. Shifting him into the mindset of I I am the manager and the entrepreneur in this business. And what what I was talking to you about before we started, which I really want to share with people, is that for people that struggle with this, I think we make it too black and white, like you have to be one or the other. And I believe that when there is struggle, like like I'm seeing in Dave, it's not about moving him entirely over into that entrepreneurial and manager space, but it's about giving him the choice on a day-to-day basis about whether he wants to sit in a technician seat or he he doesn't have that in him today, he's gonna sit in the manager's seat or gonna sit in the in the entrepreneurial seat. Growing your business sustainably is about giving yourself the choice every day about where you're going to sit.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah. And I I think that if people can let go of this concept of I can only be one and not the other, I think we need to make it true that you get to choose which one you are, depending on how you feel each day. That's the joy of being the business owner. You get to choose.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

And maybe it's just that he hasn't experienced that that um exhilaration yet of being able to choose that it feels too far out of reach or something. Yeah. But ideally that's where we all get to, um, where you can choose to take a day off if need be, and the revenue doesn't take a big hit because yeah, you've built a business that um you know that has a smart business model that is not fully dependent on you. Yeah. Yeah. So um yeah, the skill that yeah, you've got some really good um, we had some quotes with that we found here. Um yeah, most business owners think the solution to not being able to deliver is hiring. Um, but but if your systems are broken, hiring just means more people executing a broken system faster. You don't have a people problem, you have a process problem. Yes, yeah. And so we we've said that in previous episodes, systems first before staff. So any any kind of scaling is really important to make sure those systems really are clear and and working well before you bring someone into them.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's um one of the things I didn't even know this had an actual name, but it's called process debt. And that's where it's the business equivalent of you've never cleaned out your filing system. So you can function with it, but every person that comes in, every new hire, they're just inheriting a mess. And over time that mess compounds, and then it it becomes very problematic.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah, yeah. Um, I hadn't heard of that term before, process debt. But yeah, I like it though. You can function, but bringing someone in to that is not going to work out. Yeah. No. And an interesting test, yeah. Write down the five things in your business that only you can do, and then ask yourself are they genuinely irreplaceable skills or are they things that you just never got around to documenting? Because if it lives in your head, it's not a strength, it's a liability.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, yeah. And I think that when I read that question about writing down the five things that only you can do, and and we've spoken to a lot of business owners, Kate, that are of the perception that they are the only ones that can do this. Yeah. The the caveat to that statement is that you are the only one who can do it the way you do it. Yeah. It doesn't mean that there are other ways that it can't be done. And I think this is this is another part of letting go a little bit of your identity. Because, you know, it let's just say you went and got a degree in something, and then you go out and you start a business, and you're like, Oh, I'm the I'm the only one that does it this way. Well, yes, that's true. But if you document your process, there is no reason why a hundred other people couldn't do it your way.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

That's the hurdle we've got to get over. And that's the thinking that we have to change by business owners.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

And if someone isn't doing it right, they probably just haven't, um, you know, they're not equipped with the right instructions. Of course, then you've got all the performance issues with staff. And yes, there are always gonna be people, there's always gonna be people that don't follow instructions. And I thought it was a great point that you brought up in previous episodes around, I think it was in the hiring episode we did recently, around people's different learning styles. Because if you've got someone who doesn't like reading and you're giving them this great big operating manual, or they're not gonna engage with it. But if it's a if it's uh an audio that they can listen to on the way to work, then great. Or if it's uh a video potentially, and there might be a very visual person learning by seeing. So yeah, that was a really interesting point too.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yes, yes, I love Notebook LM for doing that.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Yeah, which is a great tip for everyone if you do have a standard operating procedure or something um that is well documented. Notebook LM is your go-to for converting that into videos or um audios, and it it literally is a very quick and fast process. So that's no longer a bottleneck it used to be. That would be something that would just take an enormous amount of time and resources, but now you can do that really easily.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah. And look, Kate, I I had a meeting this morning uh with with our operations lead and and Dave. And we we wanted to have a meeting about a few different things, but one of the things that really needs to be tidied up in our business is our processes. Not necessarily how we do things, but the legal guard, you know, guardrails, you know, the the laws that we have to follow. You know, I took our hot mess of a process manual that nobody reads, and I gave it to Claude and said, out of all this, because I've had many discussions with Claude about oh, what do we do about this problem and that problem? He said, out of this process manual, I want you to pick our biggest challenges and let's recreate those processes for people. Right. But Claude then went ahead on brand and created me, and I wanted just a simple one pager. So not only did it create me the one page process for this, so eight separate pages, let's keep it simple, everything on one page. Yeah, but Claude also then did the deep dive into this is the regulation, this is why we have to do it, this is how we do it. Like it it dived into exactly the type of things we talked about. And what I will do when I get a little bit more time is take those eight pages, put them in notebook LM and get notebook LM to then create an audio version and and a visual version for people those pages.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, see, all of this stuff is really from that ugly binder full of which no one was ever going to read, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

It's just too heavy to get through. And I think we need to really update our thinking around how we do develop, you know. Some things do need the high detail, and some things you've got to lose the detail in order for people to adopt it. So yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

And again, it comes down to those different learning styles. Like um, going back to the bank codes, the blueprints need the detail, like and the knowledge of people as well. Um, the actions, they will never read a manual, you know. The action types just don't read instructions, they'll make it up as they go, and if they get in trouble, they'll ask questions, you know. So again, it's understanding what the different learning styles are, and um some people need the detail, other people's other people just don't won't look at it. Yeah. And another, so we've talked about identity, um, you know, that you it really is an identity shift from going from technician into business owner or manager, and that you, you know, feel comfortable with that identity shift. It is something you, you know, what do they say? Growth begins at the edge of your comfort zone. So you've got to get you've got to get uncomfortable, you know, and and that's where the growth begins in trying to adapt these new identities. Another quality that I've seen kills growth is um um being a control freak, perfectionism and control freak. Yeah. So that really is an obstacle for people um not trusting, I suppose, that other people can deliver the same quality that you're used to delivering yourself. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yes. When when that one pops up, I I like to get the business owner to stop looking at the person that is not trustworthy and isn't doing things properly. And and sometimes I swear to God, sometimes if I had a dollar for every death stare I ever got, I'd be a wealthy woman. But I'm just like, well, but what did you do? You're the one that's feeling like things are out of control and you need to be in control. What have you done to contribute to that being this situation? If you feel like you are not in control of things, what do you need to put in place? Not what what do your staff do? No, what do you put in place in order for the controls to be there? Yeah, in order for the people to perform. Like I I always have to turn it back on to the person who is ultimately responsible, which is the business owner. Yeah, that's right. Sometimes they don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

No, no, that's right. Don't like the mirror. No, yes, and um, thinking of a few clients that I've had where they know they are the the problem, it just seems to be such a a big deal to let go of control. Yeah, um, once they get to the other side, it becomes um a very liberating uh thing and they really enjoy it. But the process of getting there is tedious, it can be tedious in my experience, just of um, help guiding them through that process of setting things up to the point where when they bring a virtual assistant in or a new staff member, that that person is set up to succeed. But where I see it getting stuck is the busyness of running a business is always conflicting with that time requirement to get the person set up properly. Do you know what I mean? And some business owners persevere and they do whatever it takes, that they're so committed to actually working through that bottleneck that they will do whatever it takes to get to the other side and bring that person on and make sure they're set up for success. Others I've seen just give up in um because they can't literally cannot. I'm thinking of one particular cloud um who literally just could not let go of control and still does everything himself, but that's the way he likes it. And he just got to the point where he's like, this is what I need to run a business in a way, and it's runs a very successful company, got a few staff under him, but um working many more hours than he would like to, but got to the point where he just couldn't sleep at night in outsourcing certain things.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Yeah, that that is a different problem. But I think if you have decided or or if it was in your mind that starting the a business was going to give you certain things, and we know for the majority, the large majority of people, they are seeking some kind of freedom, be it financial freedom, time freedom, you know, like some kind of freedom. You can't then you can't then sit there and be in control and micromanaging everything and also have freedom. Yeah. At some there's a there is a tipping point where you have to start letting go in order to get things that you want. Now, that business owner that you're talking about, if that's inconceivable for inconceivable for them to relinquish that control to the extent of which they might have a lot of freedom, then perhaps that that that freedom therefore says it's not as important as some kind of control.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

That's right. And that was the conclusion he came to. And and on the other hand, I've seen business owners where they uh I know many business owners that love the freedom of being the manager and having the team that does everything for them and get annoyed when the when a staff member demands that they read something, like, oh, you know, just you know, um, so yeah, uh I think there is such freedom in being a um a business owner with a support team that can just care, you know, um what you say, deal with day-to-day operations, and you just need to step in for for that quality control or oversight or or you know experience every now and then and leadership and direction. Yes. Yeah, ideally, it's you know, that's where a lot of businesses are working towards is having the team that they um they do have that time freedom where they can go off and do the things that they like during the week. You and I, you know, we've talked about this as well. Um I personally really don't enjoy managing people. I've been there, done that, and I just don't want to ever do it again. Um and so that's a personal choice that I've made, and I'm aware that it limits uh my capacity to grow somewhat. I mean, I have virtual assistants and I love them. And now with AI, I'm thinking, wow, this is great, can do so much more, you know. And um, and so I think it is just about what is who are you, what's your personality, what do you love, what's your zone of genius, what does success look like? Like to me, having freedom and flexibility, being able to do what I want when I want, and being able to have choices financially. And um, that to me is just that's I don't have any um ambitious goals to run a $10 million company. And that might seem boring to some, but I've you know, that's freedom is what floats my boat. So that's you know what drives me. And as long as I'm making good money and doing the things that I love and and I can, you know, give my children a really good life and they have choices, then to me that's winning, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, and I think that's why it's so important, you know, that's that's where we started is figuring out what's really important to you and what this business does. And the other thing too, Kate, we can't forget this zone of genius. When it comes to growth and scaling, I don't want people to lose sight of what their joint zone of genius is. Because if your zone of genius is being on the tools, then don't hire more people to be on the tools and push you out of that seat. That's when you've got to think about okay, I actually need a manager to run the other people on the tools. Or you've got to think of don't just think in terms of hierarchy and you have to move up the ladder. You've got to think about where you're happy as sitting on the ladder and then hire the people that fill in the rest of the rungs. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean you're still gonna have to be business owner. There's still gonna be some decisions and responsibilities that can only sit with the business owner. Yeah, but think about what you want your days to look like. And if you yeah, that's right. You could potentially grow a business and then not manage anyone. You can hire somebody to do that, but that's not what your business model looks like, which is perfectly all right.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Yes, yeah. There was um some interesting scaling myths that I asked AI to um to look at for me. And um some of I just gave it some of the ones that I hear and just to hear its opinion. And the first one was if you're not growing, you're dying. Claude says, false. Plenty of profitable, fulfilling businesses stay the same size deliberately. Um uh scale fast or get left behind. Claude says, false. Fast scaling without solid foundations creates the exact businesses that break founders. Next one was um more revenue equals more success. Claude says, false. Revenue is vanity, profit is sanity. A 500k business keeping 200k is healthier than a $2 million business keeping $100K. So yeah. And again, if you haven't, if you haven't listened to our profit first episodes, um, you need to go back and listen to that because that's all about building profit. And revenue is a validity vanity metric. Lots of people like to say, oh, I'm turning over $10 million revenue a year. Great, but how much are you actually keeping of that?

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Like you know, how much is going to stop if I'm if I've got a $10 million business, then I I don't want to be stressing about the business. Yeah. If the business is turning over that much money, personally, I'd want it structured so that I'm going to enjoy the profit and to deal with the stress.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

That's right. Yeah. That's me.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I I don't I don't want to be in the thick of it. I want to have those freedoms to decide what my day looks like.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Correct. Yeah. Um, the other one was you need a big team to have a big impact. Claude said also false. Um, AI is dismantling this myth in real time. And this year, the the first one person billion dollar company is expected to arrive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Oh, is that gonna be ours, Kate? Oh, it could be, yes. Watch this space. I know. How many people are coming to the retreat? Yeah, that's right. But a billion dollars worth. We can't handle a billion dollars worth of retreat this year. Maybe next year.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Um, the next one is um hustle culture is the price of success. Uh, there's that you know, that belief that you have to hustle. Also false. Overwork degrades, decision quality, creativity, and performance. Rest is an import, not a reward. I love that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

I I hope that this you know wave of killing off hustle culture keeps going. Yeah. Because, you know, it it has led to the statistics that we talked about earlier of burnout and anxiety. And yeah, Kate, I know that one of the things that I read out to you, which you know, you were like, Yeah, because I I lived it, was the two-year recovery time from burnout. Like, I'm I just want people to stop and think about what they're doing to themselves and you know, all good and well, you're like you're working for something, but don't make burnout the result.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

If you burn yourself out in the process of trying to achieve this goal, then I I don't think the goal is worth it.

unknown 43:14

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

That's the pathway you're choosing. Like there are other ways to do this.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Yeah, there's burnout, and there's burnout, isn't there? There's different scales of um people throw around the term a lot, but I have been through a proper burnout, and it did take around two years or more to recover from, and it is a serious thing. Um so yeah, don't take it lightly, I suppose, is the message if you're seeing the if you get if you're starting to see the signs, which is continuous exhaustion, anxiety potentially, um, maybe there's some little nickel in your body that you're ignoring uh really pays to to pay attention to that and um get the rest where you can. And I the um way back I read the book Wink. Do you did you ever? Read that by Roger Hamilton? No, it's a really great little guide for business owners. Um, it's the parable of building wealth, um, something like that, running a business that builds wealth. I always remember he's all about um leverage and zone of genius and a zone of ease where where there is ease in the business, and that's where things flow. And he always presents the sign curve, you know, the the wave from math. And he's and that always sticks in my mind. This is um exertion in your business requires an equal amount of rest and recovery in order to, you know, um, because productivity and real success happens when you're rested and in and in your sharp zone, you know, you're firing on all cylinders and and your energy's good. And that's when the magic starts happening, is when you're you you know you've um put a lot of effort into making sure you are your batteries full. So I know that gets overlooked by I really recommend that um as a read because it's it's a parable, meaning you know, that it's a it's written in story form, but it's so powerful. It makes you realize, yeah, hustle culture is all backwards. It's actually not how you find success. Success comes where you're in alignment with yourself, with your values, you're in your zone of genius, you're working to your personality strengths, and you you're really passionate about the excited about the goal that you're heading towards. Um, and and you and you're in that zone where you can rest and recover with to um in equal amounts proportional to the effort and exertion you put out. So yeah, that um I know for us growing up in the you know hustle era, we always got told no pain, no game, no um nothing's gonna happen if you you know sit on the couch, and um which uh is all true, but uh I think we got an addiction as a society to doing and and not enough actually resting, reflecting, and um allowing spaciousness. It's the spaciousness in my experience that allows the magic to unfold.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Yeah. I mean, I aren't we aren't we waking up to the fact that we are killing ourselves, and aren't we waking up to the fact that our culture, Western culture, is designed for us to hustle and work hard for somebody else. Yes, for somebody else, that's right. I don't know, there's there's there's been a number of times when I have said to Dave, if I was working this much, like when he, you know, when he works too much, I say, if that were me and I were working for somebody, what would you tell me? Would you tell me that it's acceptable, or would you be telling me to tell that boss to go and stick it? And he's like, Well, yeah, I'd be telling him telling you to tell him to stick it, you're not working like that. And I'm like, So why why do you think that's acceptable for you?

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

You know, and it it comes back with the arguments, oh yeah, but it's you know, it's our business, so not I'm the owner and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Precisely why you should be enjoying the the freedom.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

You just argued on my side. Thank you very much. You're the most important person because you're the one constant, you are the person that needs to be cared for the most. Because if you fall apart, where's the business? Unless you've got it set up with all of the things that we talk about, unless you've got the processes and the stuff and you've got everything built in, the business owner can't afford to collapse. That's right. So if we And if you've got it all set up, the business owner won't collapse.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So we we have um covered off a lot of the territory um that you know is required to set yourself up to scale, you know, in previous episodes. But just to reiterate, you know, um getting your foundation strong and stable is essential before you try to scale or bring in new staff or team members. And so um yeah, just really paying a lot of attention to getting that part right first is is important, and we do cover that in depth in in previous episodes. In terms of scaling um models, you know, obviously, in um, you know, for many of us, for example, I'm thinking of Jo, um, who's uh um one of our um loyal podcast listeners, she runs a bridal wear business, custom um couture designs, and she's amazing at it, but obviously she's limited by her capacity to deliver those designs. And so now she's branching out into the um um what do you call them? Um oh built to no, not custom. What's the opposite of custom?

SPEAKER_01 49:11

When you've got standardized um oh like just yeah, just like off the shelf.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Off the shelf. That's the that's the word, yeah. Thanks. And and really funky, sort of you can mix and match tops. So you could have the wedding gown and then you can have the party dress. Yeah, so you've got the big skirt for the for the day and then the party skirt for the evening, or um, and so it's a totally different target marker, but that's her way of diversifying and scaling so that her output, her yeah, output is not dependent on her time.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Yeah, because she could have like three tops, three skirts, three pads, can make like 27 different combinations. Well done. That are still all original. Hey, I've been watching the capsule packing on TikTok. That is so clever, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Yeah, yeah. And so I guess it comes to this is the key with scaling, and you and I are at the same point. It's like, what are the things you can do that require less of your time input but still give massive value to customers? So it's really um important that, you know, and we uh we started off today on our call looking at a a coach, this business coach that does um $10 million plus companies. She was doing um premium coaching one-on-one. And the advice from Alex Ormosi was stop doing the one-on-one coaching and do only groups. And that was a big mindset shift for her to think, how can I only do groups? You could see the resistance in her thinking, hang on, but I have to do private coaching because that's what people want. And he said, Well, is it? Can't you deliver that same high-touch experience in a group environment? So, yeah, I guess for all of us, it's about how can you leverage your expertise and time in a way that gives you, you know, um, allows you to achieve that scaling where you uncouple your time and energy from the revenue that's possible. Um that that that's different for every business, but I think it's very if as closing up in this episode, so important as we started to get clear on what does business success look like for you? What you know, how many hours a week do you want to work? What revenue is achievable in that? How can you diversify and leverage your skills to make more revenue with less of your time?

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Yeah. And if you only want to work 20 hours a week, what are you gonna spend that 20 hours doing? Because that's where you need AI or a team to fill the gaps.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Yeah, and I think we're all gonna need AI and a team to fill the gaps, aren't we, to to achieve our revenue goals? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Yeah. What are your closing thoughts, Sam? Oh, I just I I really love this one. This came from Claude, but I want to read this one out. Uh, because the through line connecting personal sustainability to delivery capacity is that you cannot build a team that delivers if you're the one that runs like that everything runs through. So your energy protects your business, your systems protect your team, and your team protects your customers. And as soon as you break any link in that chain, you can't grow because you can't deliver.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Beautiful. Yeah. What a great, great um quote to end with. Your energy protects your business, your systems protect your team, your team protects your customers. Yeah. Love it. So I guess the the moral of today, the help of the story is protect your own energy. Do what you need to do to stay to keep your battery full, fully charged. And it's okay to have a rest or take a day off if you need to, because your ben your business will benefit from it. Um, your systems are what's gonna protect your team and allow you to scale, and um, your team are what's gonna deliver a great customer experience. So yeah. Next um, next episode, we will be diving into the world of leadership. So we can't wait to to um do that with you. And uh, if you have any questions on scaling with ease, please bring them along to our workshop on the 24th of June. Um, yeah, that's gonna be another great session. Um, we've had two workshops now, which have both been a huge success.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

And I know, been so good. We've loved it.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Yeah, so any questions on scaling, bring them along to that workshop and we um will endeavor to do our best to help you problem solve.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Yeah, and I I want to say too, Kate, like the workshop and the retreat, no better opportunity than to come along to either or both of those and ask the question, because you know, sometimes people get really stuck in not being able to think how on earth they can do this, you know, how can I adjust my business model so that it's not totally dependent on me? What should I, you know, who should I be hiring? How should I use AI? All of those things. What a great opportunity to come along to these workshops and all come to the retreat. Yeah. And get some help and support to work through those answers and get get some left-of-field ideas thrown into the mix, things that you may not have thought of, because our own thinking is limiting our capacity.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Absolutely. The only limits are the ones in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

And the Bali retreat will be a big personal transformation experience. They always are. So um if if you're yeah, if you want to expand your your mind, your thinking, um your business, then that's definitely come join us in Bali. It's always an amazing experience that you come away with in a whole new world of clarity and inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

And and we've we're opening the doors to men and women this year. We are, yes. So that's that's gonna add an a really cool dynamic, I think. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Yeah, so bring it on. Can't wait. Yeah. All right, everyone, we look forward to seeing you back soon for quadrant four of the thriving business wheel. We hope you found today valuable. See you soon. Bye for now. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

You've got the strategies. Now let's build the systems. Whether you're joining our workshops or transforming at our barley business retreat, we're here to help you scale without the burnout. Visit Thriving Business Podcast.com to join our community. Until next time, keep building a business that thrives.