Ep 14 | Getting Up When You're Knocked Down: Growth Mindset in Action

Welcome to Episode 14 of the Roadmap to Business Success series — and the first episode of Quadrant 4: Lead with Impact!

Most people think business failure comes down to bad strategy, poor marketing or the wrong product. The research tells a different story. The biggest predictor of small business failure — especially in the early years — is not what you're selling or how you're selling it. It's the mindset of the person running the show.

In this episode Kate and Sam get honest about the emotional reality of building a business, the moments they both wanted to quit, and what Carol Dweck's growth mindset framework actually looks like when you're in the thick of it.

"Courage is not the absence of fear. It's deciding that what you're building matters more than what you're afraid of."

In this episode, you will learn:

• Fixed versus growth mindset — what they actually mean in practice: Why a fixed mindset says "I either have what it takes or I don't" — and why a growth mindset reframes every setback as information rather than evidence of failure
• The real statistics on small business survival: Why 92% of micro businesses are not at high risk of failure — and what the survival stats actually mean when you look at them honestly
• The emotional toll nobody warns you about: Why the hardest part of building a business in the early years is not the strategy or the systems — it's the unpredictability of revenue, the sleepless nights and the terror of not knowing whether you can pay your bills
• The Valley of Death — and how to get through it: Why the mobilisation phase of a business (years one to five) is where most people give up, why staying in the game is itself a form of success, and why the light at the end of the tunnel is real even when you cannot see it
• The garden analogy: Why growth is almost never visible while it is happening — and why the biggest mistake business owners make is pulling the seed out of the ground just before it was about to bloom
• The tortoise always wins: Why the obsession with moving fast is one of the most damaging things in business culture right now — and why slowing down, building properly and being patient is the actual path to longevity
• Payday super and what it means for small business: A candid conversation about the current financial pressures on small business owners, the gap in super legislation for sole traders, and why Profit First is the best defence against cash flow pressure
• Why your why matters more than your strategy: How Sam used the AI workbook to go deeper on her why than she ever had before — and why anchoring yourself in purpose is what keeps you going when everything else feels hard
• Growth mindset applied to leadership: How fixed mindset founders avoid feedback because it feels like an attack — and why growth mindset founders actively seek it out because they know that is where the gold is
• Zone of genius as a leadership practice: Why the best thing you can do for your team is help them discover and work in their zone of genius — and why a workforce working in their strengths is more loyal, more productive and more human than one just showing up for the dollar

Kate and Sam also share the moments they both jumped on Seek and looked at getting a job — and what happened to their anxiety levels the moment they did. They discuss what Sam learned from the Navy about encouraging growth in others. And they make a very important promise: everyone who makes it through the Valley of Death deserves a badge — and they are going to make that badge.

Coming Up Next: Episode 15 — Self-Awareness: the most underrated business skill. The foundation of emotional intelligence, and why everything in leadership flows from knowing yourself.

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27 August – 1 September 2026. Open to men and women this year. If you want to tip your world upside down in all the right ways — this is the place to do it.

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Connect with Your Hosts:

Kate De Jong, PhD | Inspired Business 🌐 Website: https://katedejong.com/ 📱 Instagram: @katedejong.inspiredbusiness ✉️ Email: kate@katedejong.com

Sam Morris | The O8 🌐 Website: https://www.theo8.com/ 📱 Instagram: @the_o8crew ✉️ Email: sam@theo8.com

Thriving Business Podcast 🌐Website:   https://www.thrivingbusinesspodcast.com/ 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Thriving Business, the podcast for ambitious business owners who want systematic growth without the burnout. Hosted by Kate Deong and Sam Morris, these business powerhouses bring you proven frameworks and real strategies to help you build a business that actually thrives.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Welcome back, everyone, to the Thriving Business Podcast. Sam and I are back in the hot seat discussing today the very important topic of growth and mindset. Hi, Sam.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Hi, Kate. I I'm today is going to be juicy. That's all I can say. It's going to get juicy.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Yeah, I was feeling a bit um nostalgic or sad this morning, thinking, oh gosh, we're into the fourth quadrant already of um of this series, The Roadmap to Business Success. We've done quadrants one, two, and three. Um, this is the last one on leadership, which is potentially the most important um quadrant because our business is a reflection of us and how we think, believe, and behave. And therefore, you know, the mindset that we bring to the business really has a huge impact on whether we succeed or not and how well we do.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

So yes, I think leadership is grossly underrated because in order to grow and scale your business, and particularly, you know, our our our beautiful service-based business owners, which is you know people that we work with, Kate, yeah, is that that the people are the business, and and genuinely to grow your business requires you to have more people for service delivery. I know, I know not always, but for a lot of service businesses, you need more people. If you're a hairdresser, hey, I can't do that for you. You know, if you're a beautician, if you're an well, an architect, I suppose they could architect. But you know what I mean. Yeah. What we'd want to talk about today is all about the the people-based businesses, because I think this is where leadership has the biggest impact or lack thereof leadership and leadership skills.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah. And um focusing today specifically on growth mindset because the a big uh and I'm gonna um I'd love you to share some of the statistics that you were mentioning to me before we started recording about survival rates of small business and mental health of small business owners and so on, um, and how much um that comes with challenge and um setbacks and feelings of failure. And um, growth mindset is all about how we respond to those. And I guess we want to, in a sense, um help people understand that that challenge is a part of small business ownership. It's not that you're a failure or you're just not getting it or you're not smart enough. It's actually a really hard thing to do, and it's not for the faint-hearted, as you and I know. There's been many times where I've wanted to give up and go back and get the security of a salary. Um yeah, you've just got and I think we want to help people get through those moments as well as have the leadership skills to develop people that you need to be delivering the services for you. So it's kind of your self-leadership and then how you how you lead those that you that you need to.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Yeah, I think we I think to start out with, we should probably explain for those that don't know. Um, you know, we're talking about growth mindset, which is a lot of Carol now. I'm probably gonna say her name wrong. Carol Quek. Quek. Yes. I'm I'm so good at getting people's names wrong. But but a lot of her work was around a fixed versus a growth mindset. Maybe we should talk initially about the differences between those and how they impact leadership. Yeah, yeah, we've got one is not conducive to good leadership.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

That's right. Yeah, so um, fixed mindset is obviously where you believe you have fixed capacity, fixed abilities, and that's just the set of cards you've been dealt with, and you either can do things or you can't. This is how I understand it, and I'd love your insight too. But growth mindset is where you think, well, these are just skills, new skills that I can develop. These are opportunities for me to grow and learn new things. And the other part of it, as I understand it, is that resilience in the face of setback and not feeling like a failure, but thinking, okay, um, failure is part of the process. In fact, that's how we learn. And I loved, you know, when we had Matt Church on the show and he said, just expect that 50% of everything you try is going to fail. And that was so liberating, you know. Um, you can take that pressure off yourself for everything you try, needing to succeed. So, yeah, what what what's your understanding of the fixed versus growth mindset?

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Yeah, I think you've nailed it, Kate. In my head, I see people with a fixed mindset as like, you know, like when you when you were young and you dad used to say, Oh, dad's so stubborn because he's doing it this way, and that's the way he's always done it, and he's willing to change. I think to me, the fixed mindset is someone who who is very black and white, and it either they can or they can't, and they're not willing to transition. Yes. Yeah, where there is the growth mindset, and I do think that most entrepreneurs do have a growth mindset because that is the nature of the entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah. And if you don't have it, you are forced to develop it.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Yes, and that's the thing that Carol talks about is that you aren't one thing for life. If you have a fixed mindset, you can move over and develop a growth mindset.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah. Yeah. And this is an exciting quadrant because we're talking today about what growth mindset is and and some of the challenges that we face in small business and how they're different to being an employee. And then in the next um episode, we're going to get into self-awareness, which is the foundation for emotional intelligence, and then finally leading from our values. So, yeah. So today, um, fixed versus growth mindset. Um, I think you're you're you've nailed it. Um yeah, if you expect to be able to do things the way you've always done them in small business, you're you're setting yourself up for immense struggle and suffering. Um, you are naturally required in starting a new business to learn so many new things. And you know, we've we've talked a lot before about the different hats that business owners need to wear, not just the technician, which is the craft that we practice, but you've got to learn how to market and sell and to automate and systemize and to um understand legal basics and financial basics. There's a whole lot of things you need to learn and understand, and that can lead, as we see, to a lot of overwhelm.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

And yeah, we've talked about this before as well, um, burnout, especially in yeah, in that in the early, you know, one to five years when you're really working hard to get all the foundation in place. That's a really vulnerable spot. And you had some stats on that, Sam.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Yes. So I I actually um did some research on some statistics and I shared with you, Kate, that I was feeling pretty for an optimistic person, it kind of drained my optimism a little bit. So I had to flip it around and say, don't give me the negative stats. I want some positive ones. I want to flip this because I don't want the episode to be all doom, gloom, and disaster. No, exactly. So 92% of micro businesses and micro businesses are those that are doing under 500k a year. Okay. 92% of micro businesses are not at very high risk of failure. That feels like good news. The inverse of that was that I, you know, the research said 8% are at very high risk. And I'm like, Well, that's yeah, just the idea. That means 92% aren't at high risk. Yeah. 43% of sole traders made it past four years in business.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

That's good. Yeah, it means that 60 um on the negative side.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Everyone can do the math.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

Yeah, yeah. We have to also consider that these statistics reflect people that uh that for whatever reason didn't continue their business. It doesn't necessarily mean business failure. And I think this is where the statistics aren't truly reflective of the market, because it could be that people decide not to continue a business, or but there are a myriad of reasons why businesses stop operating.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah. Yeah. But I would say the um, you know, the the real the reality of growing a business is a lot different than a lot of people believe going into it, right? And and that's that's sort of the I know that it for me it was a huge eye-opener and a real, you know, um, so many moments of wow, this is so much harder than I thought it would be, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yes. But and look, can we just dive into that a little bit, Kate? Because no, I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is an unexpected hardship that people aren't prepared for. So do you think it is more that they are unprepared for the legalities and the responsibility they have as a business owner, or do you think they are unprepared for the emotional toll that that responsibility has? Or do you think it's a combination of both?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I personally have experienced myself and through all my clients that it's the emotional um toll it takes. It's the um in the first one, you know, zero to five years, it's it's the unpredictability of the revenue. It's the terror of not knowing whether you can pay your bills or or pay your way. Um, and that causes a lot of sleepless nights. And until you can get that revenue model consistent and um and working for you, it's incredibly stressful. And that's where I see people oscillate between going back and getting a job and then having less time to spend on the business. And I think that this is speaking to the whole why of why I do what I do, um, and and you too, Sam, which is why we have this podcast, is because we want to make it easier for people in that phase that we like to call the Valley of Death. Um, which is actually that that Valley of Death is a is a negative spin. The positive term of that is the mobilization phase. Yes. Where you're you're in full startup um mode, where you are trying to build the foundations of of the house that becomes your business. And that takes time, it doesn't happen overnight unless you buy into a franchise or something where the all the foundations are in place. And I think people under I certainly underestimated the time and resources that that process takes to build the foundations of a sustainable business. And most people, in my experience, do underestimate that. And the fear becomes quite high at some stage where you think, I'm not going to be able to pay myself, and then they'll go back and get a job and sort of oscillate between employment and starting their own business. So you do, uh, in my experience, need to know the journey you're about to embark on by having a roadmap, which is what we're trying to do here with this podcast, is say to everyone, these are these are the things you need to be aware of and learn and upskill and get in place. Yeah. Um, and then once, and also go in with the right mindset, the growth mindset that you are going to fail, and that's okay, it's part of the process. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Like incredibly smart people go into business and fail. It's nothing to do with your your intelligence or anything. It's simply we don't know what we don't know. And um, yeah, really starting off with that um expectation and understanding this is going to be a long journey, it does not happen overnight. We always say it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? And sometimes, and we say this often, just staying in the game is is success.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Yes, a bit of a sidebar, but I am actually seeing a new trend on social media now where people are coming out and saying, stop trying to chase trends because that does not contribute to the longevity of your business. And I think that is something that is really positive that I'm seeing right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I see that in a lot of the networking groups that I'm part of, where you've got businesses that have just been around for five, 10, 15, 20 years, and they're just and we we say this often, doing the same things, um, but they have a model that works and it's just being consistent and doing the the right things consistently. And yeah, following these bright, shiny objects or trends is where a lot of us get sidetracked. And um, yeah, I think it's just getting yourself into a situation where you have that really solid, reliable revenue generating model, where you have systems that uh mean that you can focus on revenue generation instead of being stuck in admin. And I love that you said today, Sam, you've got you know, Claude working on the side, rewriting all your standard operating procedures for your business. Um, and you know, we have these tools at our fingertips these days. So for me, the odd that's the optimism. Like you and I were sharing all the stories of the government changes and how that's making um life harder for small business, even even harder, I should say, for small businesses. The optimistic side of that for me is the all all these new AI tools that we have at our fingertips that make our lives so much easier.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Yes. Yes, and I think you know that the fear-mongering that's happening. Look, that there are two sides to this, and I said we were going to get juicy today because we do have to discuss politics, and I don't want to talk about, you know, alliance to any particular party or anything like that. I just want to talk about the political landscape in in general, being that it is very negative towards the sitting government because of the recent releases and and the impact that that is having on the everyday Australian and particularly small business owners felt like they didn't get anything in the way of financial support through the budget.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

And this is being propelled like, you know, a virus through social media. On one hand, that's concerning because it kind of for business owners that are already stressed and overwhelmed, they're now worried about this as well. But on the other side, it is necessary, I think, to get the message out there to encourage people to think more politically when it comes time to vote. That's that's all I want to say on that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Absolutely, just being aware of what some of the changes are is important. Um and I think the ones you're specifically referring to are the payday super that's been introduced.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Yes, yes, there is huge fear around how that's going to impact small business cash flow. Yeah, and and you know, like we say, particularly service-based businesses that do have quite an ebb and flow to their to their cash. Yeah. But you know, I I'm running a service-based business with my husband and the system that we run to manage cash flow, and you know, this is what I do in the 08. There are ways to prepare and do things differently and and to do them more effectively, yeah. Uh so that these things don't have the negative impact that is being perpetuated. You know, you can sort of shore yourself up and and protect yourself from things.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Yeah. So if anything, I I'm I I um understand the extra burden it's putting on people now, but at the same time, I think there's a mental shift required in some small business, many small business owners, in my experience, towards financial discipline and financial understanding. Um, and with the the focus of building wealth. Like I know far too many sole traders and um partnerships that don't pay any super. And and sometimes they laugh it off, you know, as if that's a good thing. Oh, I don't pay super, I don't have to pay super. And you just think, but what are you going to do when you retire? You know, and so while it does put a temporary cash flow burden on businesses as they introduce this new compulsory payday super, I do feel um it's a necessary long-term step for the survival of small businesses long term, if you know what I mean. Because every small business should be implementing profit first and should not be struggling to pay these things. Do you know what I mean? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Look let me see if I understand this properly. See if this is the way you understand it. The idea of payday super is that the money goes into superannual superannuation accounts faster, which means that those superannual superannuation accounts, oh my god, I'm gonna trip over that, those accounts are then, you know, superannuation funds invest the money or returns. So the idea is that more money is going into these super accounts faster so that it can be invested faster, so that the returns will be faster and compounded over time.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Correct, because we have this growing population that is in trouble if we don't all start individually doing that.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

Yeah. Right. So yes, that is a good thing. However, there are other tools outside of superannuation that are available to the everyday person to grow wealth for the purpose of retirement. Superannuation is just the legal one for employees.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah, and the compulsory one. Yeah. But I don't personally know many business owners, and you and I coach hundreds of them, you know, a year, sort of thing, that actually are putting wealth, any wealth away. And I think that's the challenge of um the space that we work in, which is young businesses. The focus is very much how do I, you know, people aren't thinking about retirement, they're thinking about how do I build a business that actually generates enough revenue to support me and grow and you know, have that long-term vision of financial freedom and um lifestyle benefits and so on. So they're not often focused on the wealth and retirement component. And and that's understandable. I certainly was not focused on that until I had to start paying um super contributions when I went to a company structure. And then, of course, it becomes a legal requirement. And I actually was grateful for that because sometimes it's just a mindset shift, isn't it? When I was forced to suddenly pay super, it's like, oh yes, that is important, and I should be doing that. And and I'm grateful that I'm putting that money aside because it means I spend less on other, you know, um, frivolous things potentially.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

So, so help me out here a bit, Kate, because I I haven't operated as a sole trader. So from that explanation, what I'm getting is that as a sole trader, like I understand the tax system as it relates to a sole trader because you know it's it's on the personal tax scale based on the net profit of the business. Is there no legislation that says you earned income, you must pay superannuation?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Not for sole traders and partnerships.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Don't you think that would be a loophole in which they should close up? Yes. They're focused on this thing of payday super, but it seems to be a really big gaping whole in this system. Yeah, because you've got tradies operating as soul, you know, sole traders and and and running in regards to super, unless they actually think of it and they're proactive about it. That seems to be a really big miss in the whole system.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

That's true, actually. And I'd love any experts out there that know more about this than we do.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Maybe maybe we are missing something, and you know, we're we're not claiming to be yeah, you know, financial planning experts or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

But I just know that I when I started paying super, yeah, it was I went for about two or three years without paying any super because I was a sole of um operating as a sole trader, and it's not required. And I have checked this multiple times because I have clients who are not, you know, who are sole traders not paying super, and I've had to check that in fact that's legally okay. Um yeah, and so it is a big hole that you think we should we should be plugging as a nation.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Well, it makes sense, and you know, they they want people to have more super, but on the flip side, they're allowing people to pull out like up to twenty thousand dollars of their super.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a whole sort of um yes, we've we've gone down a bit of a political rabbit hole, haven't we? On that. I knew we would today. I can't help myself. Yeah, well, it's very um, it's happening at the moment around us in the news.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

It is it is a very current stress for people, the impact of what the government is doing. And I think we'd be remiss not to address that if we're talking about business growth.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah, for sure. And as I said before, if anything, it's it's a kick up the bum to all of us to implement profit first as soon as possible if you're not already. And if you haven't listened to that episode, go back. It's in quadrant two, I think it's episode number five, um, where we where Sam talks us through the Profit First methodology. And um since I've been using it and applying it, it's it's it is a game changer. I understand it is difficult for young, young businesses because you haven't got to that stable cash flow yet. So um it's it's um tricky when you're you when your cash flow is very lumpy to but you should still, if you can, wherever possible, be putting something away into the profit and the tax and the operating costs and you know, making sure that you've got good healthy financial discipline and understanding from the start, because it is cash flow management that kills businesses.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Yes. And I I just want to say that I think it is actually a mistake for, you know, right from the get-go when you start a business, I would love to see startups run all of these systems, you know, not just profit first, but all of the systems that you need to run in a business. If they developed those habits from day one, then the issues and challenges that most business owners face, you know, one, two, five years down the track would not be so limiting and so emotionally damaging to the business. Yes. Just been doing things from the start.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah. Absolutely. And this is where I think you and I um do what we do to educate people about these, because my I nearly went um bankrupt, I should say, in the first three years after I had been um yeah, essentially under the tax threshold. And then in the third year of business, I got hit with a, I remember it was a nine grand tax bill that I wasn't expecting. And I was just bumbling along blissfully, not paying any tax, you know, and then all of a sudden just got slammed with this bill and I didn't know how to pay it. And that is one of the moments where I thought, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go back and get a job. And thankfully, I managed to secure some new clients, and it really, you know, was a turning point for me to think, okay, I have to get a handle on what's going on here with um with tax and GST and and and super payments. And there's a whole it's a big education piece because as employees, it all happens for us. When money lands in our account, uh, we get super paid into a fund for us, we don't even have to think about it. So it's going from being an employee in a company um is just so different to suddenly you are the one having to manage all of that, you know, and it's a big burden and a big responsibility. And I think it's that um lack of understanding and education that makes us feel stupid as well. I remember just thinking, how dumb am I that I did not even, you know, I call myself a business coach and I didn't even know, you know, at that time we're very focused on um marketing, not um so much the back end business, but still I felt like a complete fraud, you know. Yeah, because I thought, how did I not know this? How did I get this far in business? And I was so completely ignorant around all the tax rules and and GST and so on.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

But Kate, not even with that. I think you are amongst very good company. Yeah. Um, for you know, I think nearly every business owner has hit a point a few years down the track where maybe it maybe it wasn't financial, maybe it was just something in their business where they've hit the point where they're like, I feel like an absolute fool. How why didn't I know about this? How have I not known this? Yeah, that's hard. And it feels like everybody else in the world knew it.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Yeah, it seems to be so in control.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

And I think that happens too many times to business owners where they feel like they were the only person that didn't know the secret, then everybody else knew it, you know? And and that really isolates business owners.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, and then it doesn't do do good uh um good things for your uh self-confidence and morale. Yeah. So yeah, if we think back to some of the key messages like I um I love about growth mindset, and especially in the early years of a small business, and we talk about this often, you've got to think of it as um being, you know, growth is never linear, it's up and down and all over the place. And we often do the the roller coaster term, you know, symbolism. But uh we often think of it as a garden, right? You are planting seeds and um you can't see what's happening beneath the surface. The the germination process is invisible, but you've got to keep watering, fertilizing, and tending to it. And sometimes it seems like nothing's happening, and and then occasionally something will bloom, and you're like, oh wow, finally, and you need enough of those positive experiences to get some traction and momentum in business. But in those early years, you know, our start, our audience is uh um a large portion, are those young, young businesses. And I guess in as an employee, effort in equals money out, right? You work 40 hours a week, you get paid 40 hours a week. It's not like that building a business. You could work 40 hours a week and not get paid a cent because you've been doing all the back end or the marketing or you haven't launched something or whatever it is, but that's a very debilitating feeling. And so I think the message is to people if you're in that boat, don't give up because it's completely normal. And um and the and growth mindset, I think, is is about understanding. I am on a journey of planting uh seeds and harvesting, and a lot of the time it's you know, you've got to have good strategy and so on, but um, a lot of the time it's about staying resilient and and having grit and perseverance and keeping on going, even when that going gets tough and you can't see that light at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yeah. I think I like to think of this as uh because this this is what I think happens. Everything these days is about who is the fastest to get there. And we're not acknowledging, you know, we we worship the hair so much and we kind of put down the tortoise, but we need business owners to be the tortoise. Yeah. We really do. And I think the problem we all have is that when we're so busy running forward and getting everything done and hustling, you imagine you've got a rope tied to you, and the rope will only come out at a certain speed, but everyone seems to run so much faster, and then of course you get yanked back and it hurts. Yeah, and I mean this is like metaphorically speaking, it hurts, like it hurts you emotionally, hurts your head, causes all of these emotional responses and the stress and the overwhelm and all of those things, and it's like people just have to slow down because we are not capable of doing all of the things, because there is a learning process in business, even when you've been in there, you know, in business 12 months, two years, five years, twenty years, you know. Yeah, like we're learning new things every day. That's right. Yeah, so the the message really has to be that people need to accept that they have to slow down because spinning all those plates, juggling all of those balls is not good for people. And you know, it goes back to previous episodes where we talk about burnout and things like that. This is how it happens. We've got to stop people charging forward at 100 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then the danger is giving up just before you're about something's about to bloom. So you pull the seed out of the ground because you can't see any progress, you know, and yeah, really it is patience and perseverance that that allows the things to bloom. So you do have to go slow, it's not something you can force. Um and yeah, for those that um business owners, obviously, we're talking about the internal growth mindset, you know, it's um really about it takes a lot of courage to to run a business and a lot of grit and perseverance. It's a it's a gutsy journey and it's not for everyone because not everyone can tolerate that level of uncertainty or that level of discomfort. And I've heard so many people say, I don't, you know, I don't I couldn't do what you do, being responsible for your own, you know, um cash flow. Um yeah, but uh I think that's what drives you and I, Sam, is the thrill, it's the thrill of doing that. Because it's it means that you're in charge of your own destiny. It's like I can I can do and create anything I want, I can support myself if the whole, you know, all the companies turn to crap. I'm still I've got skills out there and I know how to make money in in this environment. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Yeah. And look, yeah, I agree. Despite the pressures of owning a business, you know, I I have had many occasions where I'm just thought, I've jumped on seek and I'm like, just gonna get a job. Yeah, have a look what's out there. I've even applied for jobs and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, about every six months I get to that point.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

And I get, yes. But do you know how much anxiety that gives me? Yeah. Somebody else telling me what to do, uh, somebody not listening to my ideas, somebody not letting me do it the way I I believe it should be done. You know, all of the things around creativity and identity and everything are all wrapped up in in business ownership for me. And I think that's probably true of everybody else, you know. You you want things to be done a certain way, which is your way. And it's very limiting to do that as an employee, like and you know, permission.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

And so Yeah, you have to suddenly you're in a whole world of bureaucracy where you have limited control and and uh influence. And yeah, no, I couldn't, I couldn't go back to that. And that's what I have to remind myself when I get into those funky moments.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Yeah, I think it's a good exercise to every now and then apply for jobs, and then when people start applying for interviews, I have that panic of like, oh god, no, I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

So you know, reminder of where my my reality lies.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah, yeah. Um, I love this quote. Courage is not the absence of fear, it's deciding that what you're building matters more than what you're afraid of. And I think that's what keeps me going, is just I'm so committed to um to operating a thri a thriving, profitable business that um that's what keeps me going, even when it gets really challenging and hard and you want to give up.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Hey, uh following our last workshop where in which you know we talked a lot about AI, um, part of the workbook that you know we provided for our participants was you know, the very first part of that was diving into your why. And you know, like I've done Simon's course, and you know, you know, we're everybody knows what a fan of Simon's I am.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Um but Simon Sinek for those that have listened to other episodes before, yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Simon's why he's the he's the he's intellectually sexy, that's all I say. Very much so. But you know, the first thing in this workbook is using AI to dig out the the why. And I find I found doing that exercise, despite the fact that I've done it a few times before, I never really thought I got to the bottom of it. And and this this workbook provided me the opportunity to sort of, you know, because I have to test everything and I thought, I'll just test this and see how it works. It led me on this journey, Kate. And it really cemented for me what's beneath why business ownership and why this type of business and why this kind of work. It was quite extraordinary. And I think part of the longevity in business is anchoring yourself in that. So, do you want to share what yours is? What is I'd have to get the document out because explained it so well. But the the crux of it all was not ever wanting people to feel like things were hopeless. I I wanted to share what I'd learnt, and I wanted to help bring people up. And I didn't want people to not have a voice, and I didn't want people to feel like they couldn't create a business if they wanted it.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yeah. And for me, um, I love helping people um be free and be who they are and do what they love through the vehicle of small business and entrepreneurship. And and that's what drives me, the thrill of being independent agents, you know, and creating your own destiny and being in charge of your own um future and not having to rely on anyone else. And that's because uh of my personality type. I'm fiercely independent, you know, and just working for someone else is just not not where I thrive. So, but um, because I love that so much, I I want to help other people experience the thrill of that freedom and fulfillment when you when you can forge your own path.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Yeah, yeah. I like I love that you're driven by helping people seek agency. Because I think that is something that a lot of people really desire.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah, but I always say I help people like me who didn't fit in the corporate world, you know, and there's lots of them that don't thrive in that environment. Lots of people do, and you know, the majority of people thrive in those environments. Yeah, but the square pegs like us, Sam, we don't we just don't thrive in that environment.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

No, no, and you know, I I've said this before, I'm sure, a few times on on this show, is that I never felt like I was cut out to be the stereotypical housewife. I never felt like that was my role. So you know, kudos to anybody, man or woman, who stays home and looks after the house. Um, because to me, that is a really big challenge. And I'm like, you're amazing if you can do that. Like, if that's if that's your thing, love you for it. Because everybody has a thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah, but but but being a housewife wasn't mine, and I've even though you've had five children, just for those who don't know, Sam is a mum to five.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Yeah, look, but but motherhood's a separate kind of thing. But I think you know, there was a period of time where yes, having small children on repeat meant that I was at home being the housewife. Me too, with two really, really unsettled me in ways that I did not expect. Yeah. Because prior to having children, I always said, hand on heart, when I have children, I want to stay at home and be the mother.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

I said that too. And then six months in, no.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

Give me some intellectual, but that environment was not a healthy one for me. It just wasn't. And I felt like I was able to be more present for my children when I wasn't at home all day every day.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah. So what are some of the things in terms from a mindset perspective, Sam, that have helped you get through the small business journey?

SPEAKER_03 37:47

Oh my goodness, mindset. Well, look, I'm I think I'm just naturally positive. That helps a lot.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

I'm naturally resourceful. You are very naturally resourceful. You can figure stuff out.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

Yes, yeah. So, you know, and look, let's be real, a lot of the characteristics that I have brought to entrepreneurship were really developed in me while I was in the Navy. And and I as much as it is a very regimented and you know, rule-bound environment to work in, that actually having those boundaries allowed me to really explore how I am and what my strengths are within those boundaries. I was very encouraged. I was very, very lucky because I I had superiors that really encouraged me to explore things and do things that were outside of my core work. And not not everybody gets that. So I was just really lucky. I had great bosses that always encouraged me to go and do things. Yeah, great. Yeah, you know, like I was the eternal volunteer for everything, but that's all good and well unless you've working for somebody who encourages and allows you, like you know, when you volunteer, you've got to be picked, right? Yes. Yeah. So I think that the mindset of like, yes, I can do this and put my hand up and do it. And and I loved that I was encouraged to be resourceful and find solutions to problems because that really developed my initiative. Because it was allowed to flow out of me. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yeah, and as leaders in business, as you as we mentioned before, the other component of this is leading others. And um, yeah, it's you know, quite often we evolve up into business leadership without getting the training in in leadership skills and so on. And yeah, we will get into this in in future episodes, just around um all good leadership flows out of really good self-awareness and emotional intelligence and and giving others the the things that you craved as a young person in developing professionally and so on. So we will get more into that. Um yeah, but I think what you're touching on is you you had people that really encouraged your growth mindset to develop and become fully mature.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

Yeah, I I was allowed to explore things, I was allowed to try things that were outside of my core role. And I think that's really important. Like I think that's a really good thing that employers do. Uh, today, when I, you know, like I said, I had AI updating my policies and procedures and things like that, and I was developing new ones. One of the policies I worked on today was uh performance evaluations, performance reviews. And what wasn't incorporated, which is now incorporated into that review process, is identifying what skills the staff have. And you know, and that's through observation of you know, team leaders and things like that, and also of allowing the person to have a voice and say, Well, actually, did you know that I can do this or I can do that? Because to have it, like we're a small team, so I think it's really important that every team member is allowed to, you know, try and work as much as they can in their zone of genius. Many staff, many employees have never been given the opportunity to explore what their zone of genius is. And I think as leaders, that's a letdown on our behalf because entrepreneurs, you know, this is what drives them to create a business because it's a zone of genius and this is what they want to work in. You've got to factor that in when you're employing people that people need a job, so they come and work for you, but work out what their zone of genius is and help them leverage that. And that may mean that they may not continue to work for you, but it's I think that's a better option than having a workforce that is miserable and just coming in to work every day for the dollar.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um, and that as that's the biggest gift you can give someone else is helping them figure out what their zone of genius is and then stimulating them to work in it. Yeah, and I I know we've got to wrap up and move on, but there were some key points I thought would be worthwhile. And this is going back to Carol Dweck's work, which is all about um growth mindset. But um yeah, there's a few, there's five points here. I'll just walk through them because I think they're a good way to sort of summarize what we're talking about today. But um, the first one is on setbacks and failure, that you can interpret every setback through two lenses. Um, either one that says this proves I'm not cut out for this, or one that says this is teaching me something I need to know. And I think that's we always say, don't we, Sam, there's um there's no such thing as failure, just feedback. And and a lot of the stuff we do in marketing is testing and we're getting market feedback. When it fails, we know, okay, that didn't work, so we've learned something. And it's important that you really say, okay, this is something I need to know. Um, on comparisons, so fixed mindset business owners are threatened by their competitors who are doing well. Growth mindset business owners are curious about what they can learn from them or how they can work with them. Um, this one's really interesting on feedback. Mixed mindset founders avoid asking clients for feedback because negative feedback feels like an indictment. Growth mindset favors um sorry, founders actively seek feedback because they know that's where the gold is. And I know it can be scary at times when you put out a feedback form because you you're always opening yourself up to negative criticism. And we get that when we send our feedback forms out for our workshops. You know, there's always that, you know, we get people giving us ideas for improvement, and um, it's not criticism. We actually actively ask them how we could make this process better, and that's how that that is where the goal is. That's how you can keep growing and learning and delivering a really good product.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Exactly, exactly. And even, you know, in the competitive landscape, not looking at, you know, you've got to look at your competitors with curiosity and leverage what it is that they're not doing.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Yeah. And I love competitive research for looking for seeing how you're different and you can position yourself differently in the market, and there are always going to be people that appreciate or need that difference. Yes. Yeah, rather than seeing them as competitors. But the final um one, you know, on skills, growth mindset founders know that every skill can be learned and developed with the right effort and guidance, versus fixed founders believe they either have what it takes or they don't. And the final one on the valley of death, um, fixed mindset will say every every setback just feels like evidence that you should quit. A growth mindset reframes that valley of death as a necessary part of the journey that is making you better, stronger, and more capable with every challenge you face.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

I think we should all get a badge once we've passed through the valley of death. Absolutely. I survived in the valley of death. That should be like our we should get driving business podcast t-shirts, mate, with that. And we'll present them to everybody that gets through to the other side of that era.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

That's brilliant. Yes, we absolutely should. It's a badge of honor that we should wear proudly because it is not easy getting through. But kudos to everyone out there who's um in profit land and sustainable profit and growth. That's that's um you've done so well to get there.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

And yeah, and as we those that are treading the valley of death right now, please know that we are here for you.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

We are, and we have lots of ways to support you. And the next one coming up is on the 24th of June, our upcoming workshop. So um tickets will be are available for that. Um, check the link in the show notes, and then we can unpack everything about leadership, um, self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and leading from your values. So can't wait to see you there.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

Or take a big chance on yourself. Come to Bali.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Absolutely. That's the ultimate personal growth transformation. Come to Bali.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Absolutely. If you want to tip your world upside down in all the right ways, it's the place to be with us.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

It will be transformational. Cannot wait.

SPEAKER_03 46:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Sam, so good to chat with you as always. See you next week, everyone. Hope this was helpful. We'll see you back next time. Thanks so much. Bye for now.

unknown 46:53

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

You've got the strategies. Now let's build the systems. Whether you're joining our workshops or transforming at our Bali Business Retreat, we're here to help you scale without the burnout. Visit Thriving Business Podcast.com to join our community. Until next time, keep building a business that thrives.