Personal Mastery with Jerry Henderson
You deserve a life that feels as extraordinary on the inside as it looks on the outside—and Personal Mastery with Jerry Henderson (formerly The Permission to Love Podcast) will help you build it.
I’m Jerry Henderson, creator of the Personal Mastery Framework™, high-performance and trauma-informed coach, Harvard-trained in the psychology of human behavior, researcher, author, and speaker.
Every week, I—along with world-renowned experts—share powerful conversations and research-backed insights to help you align with your true self and create sustainable success from the inside out.
We cover topics like cultivating a growth mindset, building resilience, healing trauma, overcoming shame, practicing presence, strengthening relationships, developing a healthy relationship with yourself, and living your purpose—real, relatable tools for meaningful transformation.
If you’re ready to achieve from a place of full alignment, fulfillment, and lead with authenticity, this podcast is for you.
New episodes every Monday. Subscribe now—and start creating a life that feels as good on the inside as it looks on the outside.
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Personal Mastery with Jerry Henderson
How Curiosity Helps You Heal - A Conversation With My Therapist
Curiosity can completely change the energy on how we approach our healing process.
Come join Lisa and I as we discuss how curiosity can be a key factor in opening our hearts and helping us heal.
This is part two of a conversation with my therapist about trauma, shame, and healing.
In this episode, we discuss:
- When Lisa and I first connected
- Addressing the problem not just the symptom
- Challenges with finding a good therapist
- Curiosity in the healing process
- Sitting with uncomfortable feelings.
- Allowing discomfort as a part of healing.
- A special offer for listeners/viewers
When I first connected with my therapist, Lisa, I had no idea just how transformative her unique approach to trauma would prove to be for me.
In this series we reflect on our own paths through pain and the empowering role therapy has played in rediscovering our worth, a conversation that promises to resonate deeply with anyone who's ever felt lost in their own story.
Our candid discussion serves as an invitation to listeners to embark on their own healing process, one gentle step at a time.
If you would like to work with Lisa as a therapist or coach, you can contact her by email at greenlisa5164@me.com
We hope this episode serves you on your journey of returning to yourself!
I am grateful you are here,
Jerry
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This episode is a continuation of a conversation with my therapist, lisa. We discuss such topics as trauma, shame and, most importantly, how do we return to ourselves? How do we return to the parts of ourselves that we've abandoned, that we've exiled? And in returning to the parts of ourselves we discover we are returning to the source of our healing, which is our own love. If I don't figure this out, I'm going to die, I'm going to destroy my life, I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to lose every. I already lost every relationship, pretty much other than my daughters, and even those were pretty rocky at that point. But yeah, I really felt like this is my last ditch effort, and so I came to you with some pretty overwhelming sense of desperation. Describe to me or maybe unpack a little bit about what you were experiencing or how I showed up on that first phone call, and maybe what some of your thoughts were around that.
Lisa Kemppainen:You were a bit stunned and disheveled, I will say yeah, I mean, coming out of rehab is no joke and I think there you were introduced to a lot of stuff that you had never even probably thought about right, and your body was without alcohol, so a lot of stuff was going on. And getting a client like you is just it's a joy, because you were so defenseless and on your hand you know, it was desperate for me, Like, oh good, I don't have to. You know, bust this guy's walls down all over the place because he's desperate, so I could access, I could find you fairly easy and that for a therapist is really a lovely thing. It's not the person who's in a lot of pain, it's the person who is still so defended that you can't find that. And you were not because you were scared.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:Right, and that's I mean, that's just the way human beings work is that we have to get so scared before we will, you know, surrender.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah, we will. Yeah, and it's unfortunate. I was going to say it's unfortunate. I don't know if it is, I don't know if what it is, it just is what it is right.
Lisa Kemppainen:It is what it is, yeah.
Jerry Henderson:And for me it did require a stripping down. I think one of the things that I felt, and maybe even shared with you, was that I felt like every string in my life had been cut that was holding me up right, all my little strings of an image, or of alcohol or a relationship or, you know, faith, I mean all those things, you know. All that was getting cut and redefined and stripped, decked down to its core, and I couldn't figure out any handles to hold on to anymore. And even though that's frightening and even though that can scare the crap out of you, it is one of the beautiful gifts that life gives us if we'll connect with it.
Jerry Henderson:And so, if you're engaging with this episode and you're in that space where you're just like I don't know what's happening with me, everything seems to have been stripped away. There is a gift in that. And if you can look for the gift and try to find that gift and the gift is you you are telling yourself that you're tired of trying to live all of that life and that you can come back to yourself. You can return to who you are. There is a returning process that life gives us as a gift by stripping away everything that we bolted onto us, and I bolted so much onto me it was exhausting to carry it. I bolted on the work, the perfect, this or that or whatever, and couldn't sustain it anymore. And so, yeah, so many people do that.
Lisa Kemppainen:No, it gets too heavy.
Jerry Henderson:It does get too heavy.
Lisa Kemppainen:And it's no fun.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:No, I mean it's just a lot of work and it's just no fun. I mean, being on the other side of it it's like, oh my gosh, without all that stuff, life can actually be fun and easy.
Jerry Henderson:I can't. It's a whole new world.
Lisa Kemppainen:It's a whole new world. Yeah, so that's the way I found you.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah, and thank God that you were recommended to me by a fantastic therapist there at Peaks. And so one thing that I think happens and I want to take a little bit of a progression through the ideas of shame, awareness of shame and then discovery of the sources of those messages. I had no idea I was dealing with shame. I just knew that I hated myself. I wouldn't even have articulated it that way that I hated myself. I just didn't ever feel comfortable in my own presence and I drank in order. A part of my drinking was in order to tolerate being in my own presence. It provided me escape from everything and an escape from me.
Jerry Henderson:And as I use that as a survival tool, you took me on a journey to really help me understand what I was trying to manage with the drinking. And instead of managing the drinking, I detox, self-detox a number of times, dangerously self-detox, and then detox twice in rehab, and I just kept thinking that someday I'll be able to figure out how to manage my drinking or whatever the addiction is for the person. We just try to figure out how do I manage that, how do I keep that in my life so that it gives me some relief but it doesn't get me out of control to where it's destroying my life, and that beautiful journey you took me on is let's not try to manage that, but let's figure out what that is, helping you manage and managing the pain, the managing the voice, the stories that you have. And so in that journey, what would you say is some of the key things that helps a person get past that layer of unawareness, like I wasn't aware that I had the shame I minimized the heck out of my trauma, which we'll talk about here in a little bit.
Jerry Henderson:But what do you think is kind of like, the key thing that helps a person begin to awaken to the fact there's something that lies beneath. It's not all of this that you're dealing with. The symptoms are not the issue, because I think there's a lot of people who are walking around going I don't know there's just something wrong with me and I don't like my life and things are bad and this or that, and I can't seem to manage relationships and I can't X, y or Z, because for me it was very liberating to understand that there was a source of unhealed trauma that was being dealt with and managed. In those ways. How do you move a person from what's wrong with me, that I keep all this behavior to what happened to me, and that realization that there's something that's going on below the surface.
Lisa Kemppainen:I think it's that simple. I think it's about helping somebody recognize, like starting to get curious about what happened to them.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:Yeah, I think it's that simple of. I mean, that's what I was interested in, because I knew right that that really was a symptom and that you had a whole history of somehow being separate from yourself, and it had manifested in drinking and all these other ways that you creatively managed that, and so it was just about being curious as to what happened to you. I think it's just that simple.
Jerry Henderson:Beautiful.
Lisa Kemppainen:But nobody ever stops and asks that.
Jerry Henderson:Right. No, we're so busy trying to manage all the plates that we're spinning in order to manage the life that we're trying to create to separate us from ourselves and, once again, as those of you who are engaging in this podcast, I want you to continue to hear that message of that. Self-separation is that self-separation is painful, but it's also when that realization comes. It points you back to this beautiful source, and so I wanna keep reiterating that, because I think that's something that a lot of people don't work with people to help them understand that that you once again pointing you back to you, but, as you said, being curious in that space and what we're trying to do is we just don't ever take the pause. Right, Life then somehow forces us to take the pause.
Lisa Kemppainen:Yeah. Well, I have a question for you, because you have told me before that I was not what you expected and I was so different. And I wanna know well, what did you expect and what was so different? What did you think was gonna happen?
Jerry Henderson:Yeah, well, interesting. Maybe there's two things here. Right, there could be the Jerry Henderson who went to therapy before, who was looking for problems or looking for reasons why something wasn't going to work, et cetera, and so it allowed me to see things that you know, or didn't allow me to see, certain things that maybe could have been a gift, that were hiding behind my projections of why this wasn't gonna work as a therapist or whatever. But the other side of that is that I had usually two experiences with therapists. One is I got the textbook, I'm gonna define you, I'm gonna put you in this label, I'm going to then prescribe you these four things, and then you're kind of like, well, I don't think that's really what's going on with me. Yeah, I can go to an AA group, or yeah, I can do this thing that you're talking about or read this book, but I don't know. It just doesn't really feel like that's what's happening. Now, it could be that I didn't know what was happening, which is probably the case, but there was just this prescriptive approach that didn't allow for curiosity and didn't allow for customization, which just felt like I'm just getting a textbook label.
Jerry Henderson:The other thing that was interesting, that happened at times is somehow I would be winding up in the counselor's seat and because of my former history as a pastor, and if I was seeing Christian counselors, all of a sudden they would begin to ask me about well, what do you think about this? And I've got my husband does X, or my person that I have, my son is, and I'm like I'm trying to pay you to help me. I'm not here to understand your issues. That's fine, but I had that happen on two occasions actually, where I had to terminate the relationship because of that. And then the other thing that had happened a couple times is they would forget that what you were really trying to work through at times and it would just become repetitive counseling sessions, repetitive therapy sessions, and it was almost like they had their script that they needed to execute in a therapy session and you were gonna become just kind of the bystander in the therapy session.
Jerry Henderson:And so and I wanna encourage people who are watching or listening to this podcast that if you've had experiences with therapy and I'll get messages from people that, like I've tried therapy and it just hasn't worked for me, and just because this approach that just doesn't see me as a person, I wanna encourage you. There are therapists like Lisa who can really help in that space. So it's not prescriptive, it takes a mindfulness approach and that was one of the other things that you combine this beautiful work of mindfulness and clinical psychology together. Talk to us a little bit about your approach and I'm sure you've experienced other clinicians or folks in the mental health profession who do take that very scripted textbook approach. But yeah, what drew you to that? And talk to us about how you do that and why you do that.
Lisa Kemppainen:Well, I think it's ridiculous to think that every person would Like. I don't see therapy as a recipe that you apply to somebody. I see it as a relationship. Right that you are just getting really curious about that person.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:Yeah, so I think of therapy. For me it feels like an art form. It doesn't feel like Like a science. It feels like which is why it's difficult for me to answer specific questions because it doesn't work like that in my head, like it's not something that's like a script. It's super intuitive and it's based on the relationship, because I'm a firm believer that if you don't have a strong relationship with the person you know, forget it. It just won't work because your psyche won't trust me, and if your psyche doesn't trust me, then we can't go where we need to go. So that's my main goal is In the first session is for us to figure out if we have a connection.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah, right.
Lisa Kemppainen:Yeah, if you felt like I got it, like I understood what was going on and I could somehow relate to you. I mean, that's always my number one goal because I love to have new clients, but it's not a fit, it just doesn't work. And I have to say I think that's happened maybe three times in my whole career, because I'm pretty good at it, because I like people and I like to be curious. Yeah, and a lot of people, I think, would think the way I do therapy is unusual or whatever. But it seems to work and it's just really based in the relationship and it's about being super curious together. I mean, I'm not doing the work, I'm just walking the journey with you.
Jerry Henderson:Right and.
Lisa Kemppainen:I'm just noticing things that might be in the path, that are in the way that maybe we could pick up the rock and look under this, or we could look around this corner, or maybe I can anticipate something that's coming up.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:And it's, and I'm really trying to get in you. I'm really trying to think what is it like to be Jerry? You know what is it like to move through the world as Jerry, Because if I'm in you I can start to understand how you see things. And therefore, I can see, maybe, where there's some troubling spots. Yeah, right, absolutely yeah, and I yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:And so I could get in you and I could see oh, this guy, this guy has been pretending for a long time and this guy has used a lot of things to try and make himself and his life okay.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:And he's somebody who really wants to be who he is.
Jerry Henderson:Wow, yeah, just as you were even articulating that, it made me just even a little emotional in that moment where you were talking about this guy's been pretending for so long and still definitely something I continue to struggle with and yet there's more of my authentic self than ever before, but still some of that separation I could even feel it as you were talking just a separation from me, who I project, versus the authentic me, and I think a lot of that work is closing that gap.
Jerry Henderson:What do you think Like closing the gap between who I think I have to be or how I feel about myself versus who I am? And when you said that, I felt that I became aware of that distance. That gap became alive again to me. Just a little bit. No shame or judgment about it, it's just awareness, which your curiosity approach, what it did for me is it provided a safe place, felt safe, and then it allowed me to be curious about myself and investigating myself, which I hadn't done. I was more about bolting on who I should be than understanding who I am.
Lisa Kemppainen:And I think it's just such an amazing experience the first time somebody suggests that maybe you could just get out of judgment and you could just get curious Like what a novel concept. You mean, I don't have to have all this stuff around who I am or what I think I could just start to explore. That's a really, really really freeing place to be.
Jerry Henderson:It is. Yeah, it's one of the most freeing, I think, things that I learned from you in therapy. I mean, I learned a lot, but one of the things that felt liberating there's these moments where you feel liberated. You feel like you have permission to do something, and thus the title of the podcast, right, permission to Love. How do I find the permission to love myself and come back to myself? And so that permission to be curious was very freeing for me, very liberating.
Lisa Kemppainen:Yeah, it's a huge word. Having somebody. Curiosity instead of fear is just it. I mean, I know because I play with that in my own life about like what if you just got curious about it, instead of all wound up in a knot and instantly it's just like oh my God, I could breathe. My son and I have been talking a lot about the word allow.
Jerry Henderson:Okay, tell me about that.
Lisa Kemppainen:And how generous that word is. So he reminded me recently that you know. He said, mom, who are the happy people that you know? Are they the ones that are allowing or are they the ones that are resisting? And I just thought that was so powerful. So we talk about the word allowing a lot, which I think is a distant relative of curiosity. It just provides some space.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah, I love that. So would that like? There's so much that we don't allow for ourselves, right even in our healing process. I don't allow myself to have a bad day. I don't allow myself to, you know, feel that anxiety. Instead, I try to resist it and push it down. And so I meet anxiety with more anxiety, become anxious about the anxiety, you know, and I feel shame for the shame, or judgment because of the judgment. And so, instead, what would you encourage in that concept of allowing, when people find themselves in that loop?
Lisa Kemppainen:I just encourage them to get out of the commentary about it and just sit with it, which is another thing that's really really difficult, because, I mean, sitting in discomfort is not something that people are generally know how to do or want to do and, honestly, you know it's not fun but it does. If we can do that and we can just allow ourselves to be curious, then we can provide ourselves an opportunity to experience something in a different way.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah, to just be able to sit with yourself. To be curious, because we hear a lot from therapy and mental health industry you just sit with your feelings, right, and so that almost has been said. Enough to where maybe it gets dismissed right, like I don't want to sit with my feelings, I want to distract myself. What's the value in that? And sitting with it and coming, getting over the barrier of not wanting to do that?
Lisa Kemppainen:Well, I'll back up a little bit from that question and actually say there is some definite benefit in understanding the resistance Like why is that so terrifying, right? Why is that so scary, Right? A lot of people that haven't sat in their feelings are like well, if I sit in my feelings I'm never going to get my ass out of this couch, I'm just going to sit in depression, anxiety forever.
Jerry Henderson:Wow.
Lisa Kemppainen:Right, because I've got a whole lifetime of avoiding and if I allow myself to open that door I'm just going to be flooded. But the benefit of it is because emotions are exposed to be experienced. I mean, that is the way we are designed. They are supposed to be felt right. They are supposed to go full circle, they're supposed to complete a circle. If somebody, your hamster, dies, you're sad, you cry, you grieve, you mourn, you move through the whole thing, but we stunt ourselves, you know, we start to feel it and we cut it off and so therefore, then we just have all this stuff, that's, all these emotions that have never been completed and cycled through. I probably said it to you before, but it's like being emotionally constipated. I mean, if you ate and you never pooped, you'd be a wreck.
Jerry Henderson:Exactly, yeah, absolutely. And the wreck that I was right and the wreck that I'm trying to not continue to be.
Lisa Kemppainen:And then people think anxiety is this horrible thing, or depression, and in fact, anxiety is just a way of letting you know that you're not paying attention to yourself, just the way a stomach ache would let you know You're not paying attention to yourself. There's something that you need right, and so I think curiosity allows us to just examine that. What is this trying to tell me, as opposed to no, no, no, I don't want to have that, I can't have that. It's just a way that your psyche is signaling that you need something.
Jerry Henderson:And so then, when we resist that, so we got a signal that's coming, and when we resist it, we try to stop that. Fundamentally, are we resisting ourselves at that point?
Lisa Kemppainen:Totally resisting yourself yeah.
Jerry Henderson:Yeah.
Lisa Kemppainen:Absolutely resisting yourself. And the beauty of the way that we're wired is that you won't get away from that very long because you'll resist, resist, resist, and then you'll wind up either with panic attacks or depression so intense that it'll paralyze you. Paralyze you not literally, but you know what. I mean It'll, it'll paralyze you, it'll paralyze you. Yeah, keep you so stuck. Yeah so the psyche keeps giving us reminders of wanting us to move back towards ourselves, to complete emotional cycles that, in trauma, can't get completed.
Jerry Henderson:Wow.
Lisa Kemppainen:So it's all so intertwined.
Jerry Henderson:Wow. I am so thankful once again for Lisa taking her time to be a part of these episodes. We'll continue this conversation again next week. Now, if you are interested in working with Lisa, she does one-on-one therapy as well as one-on-one private coaching. You can find out more information about how to work with her by seeing the show notes in this episode.
Jerry Henderson:And speaking of coaching, I am so excited to be launching a group coaching program in the month of February. You know, traditionally I only do one-on-one private coaching with individuals, but due to the increasing demand of people wanting to learn how to love themselves, I decided to launch a group program. You can find out more information and get on the wait list by going to gerryhendersonorg forward slash coaching. And, for the listeners of this podcast and for those who follow me on Instagram, if you sign up for the wait list this month and make your first payment, you get 50% off of your first month. So don't wait. Get signed up, because the spots are going to be limited.
Jerry Henderson:And finally, I'm super excited to be releasing a book in the month of March. The book is a collection of thoughts and poetry on self-love and healing. So, if you haven't done so yet, sign up for my newsletter, because that'll notify you the day that the book gets released. Well, I am so, so grateful that you took your time to be a part of this episode today, and remember, as always, that you are worthy of your own love.
