How family dynamics shape addiction and recovery with Amber Hollingsworth

In this episode of the Heallist Podcast, we explore the role of family dynamics in addiction and recovery with Amber Hollingsworth, a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor with over 20 years of experience working with individuals struggling with addiction and the families who love them. Amber brings a psychology-informed perspective to how patterns within families — denial, enabling, shifting roles — can quietly influence both the progression of addiction and the path toward recovery.

Drawing from real-world examples and her work with families, Amber shares how certain intervention approaches can support change, including what she describes as "invisible" or indirect methods. We dig into how loved ones can better understand their own role in the dynamic, respond more effectively, and create conditions that may encourage accountability and healing over time — without falling into the common traps that can unintentionally make things worse.

This conversation is intended to provide educational insight into addiction and family systems, not clinical guidance.

Key takeaways:

• Family roles and dynamics can shape addiction patterns and recovery outcomes in ways most people don't realize
• Awareness alone doesn't lead to change without aligned action and boundaries
• How you communicate can directly impact trust, influence, and openness
• Natural consequences and structured interventions can support accountability
• Emotional, physical, and relational support all play a role in long-term recovery

About Amber Hollingsworth: Amber is a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor specializing in addiction and family recovery. She's built a YouTube community of over 800,000 subscribers helping families navigate addiction, and is the creator of the Invisible Intervention approach.

Connect with Amber: 🎥 http://www.youtube.com/@PutTheShovelDown  🌐 Invisible Intervention: familyrecoveryacademy.online/invisible-intervention

Visit Heallist.com - your portal to holistic healing, connecting seekers and thousands of practitioners across the globe.

Follow @heal_list on Instagram.

Watch video episodes on Spotify & Youtube.

Transcript

Yuli 0:00

Hello, dear friends, and welcome to the Heallist Podcast. If this content resonates, please hit subscribe or follow to support this independent content. And today we have a really exciting episode. We're getting into the psychology of addiction from the family side, how it doesn't just affect the person struggling but reshapes everyone around them. And Amber Hollingsworth has spent over 20 years working with people in addiction and the families who love them. And she runs Hope for Families Recovery Center, and her YouTube channel has grown to over 800,000 subscribers, which tells you something about how many families are quietly searching for a different way forward. She's built her own method around early intervention, family communication, and what she calls the invisible intervention, which we're gonna dive into, working on the family system to create conditions where change becomes possible before crisis forces it. So I'm really thrilled to have you on the podcast. Welcome. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Yuli. So I can't wait to dive into all of your wisdom. It's such a big topic. The subject just keeps coming up more and more in my world somehow. And I think there's just so much more awareness about, first of all, just the damages and the effects of addiction and alcohol and everything in between. But also, I think what you're doing is such an important work to acknowledge the people around that are suffering as well, and how many parts of the society it's touching. It's not just the person itself. So I really applaud your work and I would love for you to kind of just frame what you do and how you got to this place of recognizing the need. Okay.

The Villain Role In Addiction

Amber 1:48

Well, historically, I'm trained as a therapist. And so I've been working with people, teenagers and adults that struggle with addiction for a long time now. Like I've worked in inpatient settings, outpatient, I have a private practice. So I've seen it from all the different angles. And it what's helpful about that is it helps me understand the thinking patterns, basically like the psychology of someone that has addiction. One of the things I caught on to very quickly is that there's always a villain in an addiction story. So the person with the addiction is really full of self-pity and resentment. It's like the fuel for addiction. And it's usually aimed, I mean, it's aimed in a lot of places, but there's like a primary place. And it's that's usually the person closest to them, like their parent or their partner. You can't get to the addiction until you can get the villain thing resolved. Basically, it's like the people that talk to me aren't going to talk to me about anything about their addiction as long as their family members is playing the villain role. Now, they don't mean to play the villain role. They get sucked into that, but it happens and it's all they'll want to talk to me about. So, because of that, I started to make content for family members. So even though I see people with addiction, I make content for family members, helping them understand the psychology of what's going on, what to say and what not to say, how to get through to someone in denial, and that sort of thing.

Yuli 3:16

That's an incredible story and makes so much sense. So talk to us about the framework that you've developed, this idea that I find it pretty unique and innovative, recognizing the impact of the family members. How does that dynamics you mentioned the villain? What else can you unpack some of those typical dynamics that are happening? Yes.

Amber 3:39

So there's this, you know, there's this primary villain, and the villain is always just the person that sees the addiction. They have that front row seat, as I call it. And so they see the behind the scenes of this person and they see what's really going on. And so this is someone they love and they care about. And naturally they want to help them and they want to get this person to take this serious. And so they start all these various ways of trying to get this person to see how big this problem is. And that's what puts them in the villain role, is because, you know, someone in denial, they don't want to see this issue. And so when you're trying to show it to them directly, they just get mad at you. And it serves as this like giant distraction from them having to deal with what's going on with them. And you get this giant power struggle that goes on. And so the family members, like, I know what's going on, they won't admit it. And so they get really bogged down and trying to find the evidence and all this stuff to present to this person as if if I show you the evidence, you're going to admit it, which doesn't even work. And then they come to the person, trying to get the person to admit it. And then this person says, You're crazy, you're overreacting, or that's not mine, or some form of gaslighting. And then that makes the family member feel even more frustrated. And then they look for more evidence, and then this whole cycle just continues and continues and gets nowhere. So the person with the addiction, and then the villain in the story, the family member, what will happen is the addicted person will then start complaining to the people around them about this villain person. So, like the mother-in-law, the friends, and everything else, people outside of the family member start to view the family member as the problem. But they don't know that. And eventually the family member starts reaching out to the people and saying, hey, so-and-so's got a problem. Can you talk to them and trying to sort of recruit them in on the mission? But what they don't know is that the person with the addiction, in a lot of cases, many most, I would say, has already recruited these people. And so when you go to them as the family member, they don't take you serious. They're secretly blaming you, may not be secretly blaming you, they might be blaming you just outright, which is the case a lot of times. And that and so what happens to this family member is they feel completely alone and isolated. And it's like, I'm the only one that sees this, no one will take me seriously, the person won't admit it, the family, they're enabling it, and they think it's me. And so you get this horrible dynamic that really just fuels addiction.

Yuli 6:21

So it sounds like there's a lot of like shame and avoidance, there's some really deep like patterns and manipulation, right? I mean, it's a lot to unpack.

Amber 6:35

Yeah, it sort of all stems from like defense mechanisms. And so once we're able to untangle that family dynamic, we're usually able to get things moving on the right track pretty quickly from there. But we get nowhere as long as that dynamic is happening.

Yuli 6:51

So do you feel like it's just part of the dynamic that keeps the person in addiction where they are, like stuck in their story, right? It's all of us telling stories to ourselves.

Amber 7:02

It is. And it's been made worse because when people try to confront you, you naturally get defensive. Like, and this is just a human thing, right? So somebody could call you out on something that you did wrong, and you know you did it wrong and you feel bad about it, but you're gonna get defensive. Now, depending on your personality, you may or may not say it out loud, but in your head, you're gonna get defensive. That's a natural human response. So everybody starts trying to get this person to see this problem. And every time they're saying something, this person, this person is thinking and usually saying all the opposite things. You know, here's what they're saying: they're saying, you're overreacting. You think everyone's an alcoholic just because your brother was. You're negative about everything. You're crazy. I don't drink half as much as all my friends. Like they, these are the things they're saying to you. And every time you get someone to think those thoughts and say those things, they're convincing themselves you are. So it's like helping to keep them in denial. Because their natural reaction is to give you evidence against what you're trying to say and it's making denial worse.

Yuli 8:08

I feel like it's because our natural logic always tells us, well, awareness is the first step. If you can help the other person become aware, you're gonna want to change, right? So are you saying this logic is has some flaws?

Amber 8:21

Well, I agree with that. Awareness is the first step. I'm saying this isn't the way to make them aware. This is the worst possible way to make them aware.

Yuli 8:30

Obviously, without diving too deep into your framework, but what are some of the ways to break this dynamic?

Amber 8:37

The sort of general big picture of it is that what most families do is they try to protect the person from all of the outside real-world consequences, like they pay for the lawyers, they pay for summer school, you know, they do all these things because they don't want this person to burn any permanent bridges or, you know, have some kind of consequence that's like major life altering. So they fix all of that, right? Externally, they're fixing everything. But internally, they're very negative with this person. And so you can see how that creates denial. It's like, I'm fine, what you're talking about, my grades are fine, whatever, you know, like because externally things are being held together. Now the family member knows that's only because of them. But what the addicted person sees, it's just more and more evidence that you're crazy and you're overreacting and they're not that bad or they don't have a problem. You have to reverse that. So, with my framework, you need to let all of the natural consequences that you possibly can fall. And a natural consequence is something that happened as a result of their addiction that you didn't have nothing to do with. Because a lot of families say, well, that's a consequence and it's a punishment. It has to be something not related to you. If you dolled it out, it's a punishment in that person's mind and they won't learn from it. So anything that naturally happens, let that happen. And then you play the good guy inside the context of the relationship. This allows them to start seeing the truth so much faster.

Yuli 10:07

So is that part of the invisible intervention method that you've developed? Yes.

Amber 10:14

That's sort of the big picture concept of what we're trying to do. We're trying to reverse that. Like let the world be the villain and you be the good guy. Because when you're the good guy, then the person trusts you and they start talking to you. Now you have the ability to influence them. Now they care what you think. Now they're going to talk to you about what's going on. And now you can lead their thinking in a direction that you want it to go, but you still have to do it sort of what I call through the side door, not the front door.

How Families Lose Credibility Fast

Yuli 10:43

Hmm. So interesting. I mean, it definitely makes sense psychologically. I'm just thinking all the cases in my life where this could have been applicable and helpful. You mentioned some of the things that families do. Are there any other common mistakes that families do to people in addiction?

Amber 11:04

Well, a big thing that they do is they they see the problem and they're constantly talking to this person about getting help. You need to get help. You need to get help. You should go to treatment. I'm not going to say with you unless you get treatment, you know, every kind of version of that. And if you're dealing with someone who doesn't think they have a problem and you're trying to talk to them about going to treatment, you're ruining what I call your credibility with the person. Like they're just eye rolling you and dismissing you. And now everything you say is ridiculous to them. So this person doesn't even think they have a problem, and you're trying to get them to go to six months of treatment. Like we're way off base here. We got to put first things first.

Yuli 11:41

Right. Yeah. So first is create awareness that is not through talking necessarily, but through allowing the universe to show the consequences. But eventually the conversation of getting help does come up, hopefully in a natural and supportive way, like you mentioned. What are kind of in that phase two was some of the framework that you're using?

Amber 12:08

When a person does start to see it and feel it, if you've created a good, what I call credit score with the person, you know, they trust you. They'll talk to you about it on some level. And eventually something will happen out here and they'll start saying things to you like, you know, I really got to cut it back, or I really need to stop doing this, or I need to take a break from this or whatever. They'll give you what we call change talk. Some version of change talk is gonna happen. And you wanna encourage that. Now, when addicts and alcoholics change, they don't go from I'm in denial to, oh my gosh, I have a problem, I need to quit everything forever and go to treatment and get a sponsor. That's not what happens. It's like they go, there's layers of denial, like I don't have a problem at all, to I have a problem, but it's not that bad, that I have a problem, but I can handle this myself. I have a problem, I need to stop this one thing, but I can still do this other thing. It's what I call the bargaining stages. So when someone first starts to change, they're not gonna say, I'm gonna stop drinking forever and be sober for the rest of my life. You have to let people work through the bargains and they're gonna try everything. I'm just gonna drink on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm just gonna drink beer and not liquor. I'm just gonna smoke on the weekends, I'm just gonna do $500 worth of cocaine and not $1,000 worth of cocaine. It's and it they're gonna try all these like ways of keeping it in their life without letting it go completely. And instead of fighting them on it, if you'll sort of go with it, it'll go faster. There's no way to get there and skip these bargaining, but you can speed up it. So yeah.

Yuli 13:44

So interesting. And, you know, and then the day, we're talking about habit changes, right? Which is like really most of my conversation turned to be about habit changes. Everything we do in holistic health, unlike, you know, traditional or whatever you want to call it, Western medicine, we're really trying to fix the problem at the root, right? And that's not an easy path. And to me, it's a very interesting path to explore, both as a thinker and talker, but also with myself personally. We all have those battles, but I think it's just such a fascinating topic that so many different like modalities of holistic health and psychology approach with so many different perspectives, but it's really the hardest thing to do.

Amber 14:33

Right. And all the things that I'm talking about with you today, Yuli, apply to helping anyone in your life that needs to make a change. It could be your best girlfriend who's, you know, in a toxic relationship. This is how to approach someone who's in a difficult situation and maybe isn't seeing something they need to see in their life. This is what you do across the board.

Yuli 14:52

I just use the example of addiction because that's what people come to me for. That is such a good point. I can totally see some of those things applicable. I mean, how many times we have those people that, you know, they come to you with their problem because they maybe trust you, and you can just see, totally see what they're missing. And it's such a, especially if you are a healer or a coach, right, or anyone in this field, sometimes it's easy for us to see what what people are maybe missing. Right. But it's really difficult to hold yourself from, you know, offering that help and just kind of leading with that natural empathy and compassion, but sometimes doing more damage, right?

Amber 15:34

Well, yeah, because the the truth of it is, is deep down inside, they see it on some level. They see a need to change. They don't want to acknowledge that out loud because they have a lot of ambivalence about it and they don't want to commit to one side or the other, and they definitely don't want to tell you because then that makes it real, you know, and then they know they're gonna be pushed to make certain choices they're not ready to make. But deep down inside, when we're engaging in a behavior that doesn't fit with our values or that's harming us in some way, we know it. It's in there. So when I say you can't come at it directly, instead of trying to push that information into someone, you got to look inside of them and find what they have already and pull it forward.

Yuli 16:13

Interesting point. Now, since we mentioned some of those other modalities, what do you find that really works well as a complementary treatment or in any of those phases, right? Starting with awareness. Because I think a lot of times even seeking help, even from if we gonna be really woo from a psychic, right? Sometimes you find answers that you didn't expect all the way to like acupuncture and more of a medical-based modality is like what do you see that is working well as a complementary process?

Values, Spiritual Repair, And Brain Healing

Amber 16:52

Well, I don't know what you would call this, but I will say that it's really strange because we view addiction as a biological problem. But the answer to addiction, pretty much no matter who you ask, what their belief is about it, is almost always spiritual. And the the reason is is because it's not that bad people get addicted. It's that people that get addicted start to act badly. And what I mean by badly is against their own values and morals and identity. And so as the addiction goes on, their behavior gets further and further and further away from who they are in their heart or who they truly want to be. And so, in order to fix that gap, you gotta get the behaviors to match the person's values. And it seems crazy because we're like, oh, it's a brain disease. Well, then why are you fixing it like this? Because this is the fix that makes me not have to run to denial, it makes me not have to rationalize, it makes me um not need to need all these coping skills and self-medication. So it's that spiritual component that really has to come together for someone.

Yuli 18:00

So what do you see people do in terms of spiritual practices that has been really effective?

Amber 18:05

Well, for me, it's all about identifying someone's values and their identity. And and what I tell the families is how they want other people to think about it, right? Like if they see themselves as a good father, do they see themselves as a good provider? What do they care about, right? And then if once you start talking to this person about that, you want to positively reinforce any of that. That's what I do with it. And and then as I'm doing that, I'm sort of subtly subconsciously sending them messages of you're gonna be this, and I know that because, and then I give them evidence of something I know they've done in their life because that makes them believe it because it's their evidence. It's not just me saying, you can do it, you're like cheerleadery vaguely or whatever. I'm saying, remember that time, this and this and this, that's what this is gonna be like. And so it starts to move them and get them excited about wanting something different because they think sobriety is gonna be horrible. Because when you're in active addiction, on the days you're sober, if there are any days, you're miserable. So you're thinking, I don't even want to live life like that. I mean, literally that's what they're thinking. And so when you can get someone to see actually, grass is a lot greener over here, then they start to get excited about it.

Yuli 19:24

So, do you find some of the physical and biological changes are still kind of helpful? I know we talk about the spiritual side and it's important, but at the end of the day, you know, things like movement and breath work and just getting well physically sometimes moves people out of it. So can you talk about the physicality of it and and again if there's any practices and modalities that you find really successful?

Amber 19:53

Yeah. Um there is the brain chemistry part of healing because as addiction goes on, all that gets out of balance. And the things you can do to restore that faster would be things like physical movement. You're gonna get all the right brain chemicals, connection with other people so you can get your serotonins and your oxytocins going, accomplishing things. These are things that heal the brain chemicals behind the spiritual component, if that makes sense, because it restores you to feeling better. And ultimately you're we're trying to get you to a place where you like yourself again. Because when you're in addiction from the outside, it may look like oh, you don't care about anything, you're just gonna be high all the time, or you're just partying, but really they're miserable. It's terrible. Right. And so we're trying to get them to biologically and spiritually sort of move back to themselves. And so movement, connection, all those kind of things will just help you feel faster. Incredible.

Yuli 20:55

What do you find some of the causes of the relapse? Right. When someone gets to that place, all the brain chemicals are wiring properly. They're spiritually connected. Why do we see so much relapse?

Amber 21:09

Well, I would sort of break it into categories. Sometimes I wouldn't even call it a relapse when someone's still bargaining. So, like people will do things like, I'm gonna take 30 days off, and then you know, they make it two weeks and then they use or whatever, or or you know, they have these periods of off and then on. I don't even know if I would call that a relapse because the person in their mind was eventually going back to using. So I'll say that's one category that's bargaining and not relapse. I would put that over there. Then you have the what I call it'll be different this time category. So it's like they'll be doing really great for a while and then they'll convince themselves, you know, I've been sober for six months, a year, whatever it is. You know, it's not gonna hurt me to drink just one, or you know, this won't hurt, or I can smoke a little bit of weed because I never even liked weed, I never even had a problem with. with weed. And so they it's like a bargain comes back basically. But when they do that, it's not like they're like, oh, it's on, like I'm going to go head in. They convince themselves that they'll manage it differently. I call that the it'll be different than that's probably the majority of relapses. We convince ourselves somehow we're not going to let it get like it got before. But trust me it always gets like it got before. Usually pretty quickly. And then there's like an impulsive kind of relapse. Like when you're more vulnerable, like if you're stressed, if you're hungry, if you're you've used up all your willpower for the day and then you run into a certain trigger and then it's available. Like sometimes you just move into autopilot and there's not even a lot of thinking involved. Like I I was dealing with somebody not too long ago who had had a year and a half, maybe two years sober. And they were dealing with some life stresses which were real or whatever. But it wasn't all that different. But for whatever reason they were in a mood that day they walked into a gas station and they thought I'm going to buy one. And they did and it was literally happened all in a matter of 15 seconds. Because I always ask I'm like was this a premeditated relapse like had you been thinking about it a while? Had you been craving it? Were you planning it, you know? Sometimes they're like yeah I had been really wanting to for two weeks you know when I was holding out sometimes it's just that impulsive before I know it habit kind of move.

Yuli 23:34

And in those cases any advice for families or loved ones obviously there's again we're going back to that cycle of disappointment and shame. Right. Do we restart all the phases in that point?

Amber 23:53

The family can have a big impact on whether we start those phases right if you get really mad at this person and get really confronted you're going all the way back. You're going to be back in the dance of the villain and the victim you're going all the way back. You're going to keep it going long. If you respond with empathy see what happens is someone relapses and the family relapses too with them because they panic. Everybody's in a relapse now and the family relapses and they're like they're coming at this person see I knew you didn't mean it or this is going to blow up on you. They try to magnify it up thinking that the it's going to make this person realize it faster. What I try to do is minimize it. I try to be like dude that was a blip you've been sober for 18 months I'm not giving you today but we're going to give you tomorrow if you're sober. Like it's a blip it happened. I try to like minimize it down because it feels less scary and someone will get right back on the wagon.

Yuli 24:49

If if you make it scary and you make it like you've ruined everything, you know that's it, all these consequences, then they're like eff it and then it's just full on yeah no it's um so incredible so all of this wisdom obviously it sounds like you it's really like experience a real kind of like client case experience. Are there any cases that you can think of that was really um something that maybe taught you something new or was like um an extreme extreme example of what what you're teaching?

Amber 25:27

Well one of the concepts that we teach is connecting to people's identity. And so if a family member this is easy because you already know them really well. And instead of saying something to your person like you're being a terrible father and a bad influence on the kids and they see what you're doing, wait until you find them doing it right and you say I always respected how much you make time for family. You know you remind them of their values which puts it in the forefront of their mind and tomorrow if they're not acting in accordance they see that gap. So an example of when something like that happened I had a client who had a lot of defense mechanisms and even even with me and I'm usually pretty able to get them down but this this guy was tough. And most of his defense mechanisms I would say are kind of like narcissistic and it has to do with shame and I think he felt embarrassed about having to see me because this was an important smart guy. And he spent all of his time telling me how great he was I mean how much how he was the best in his field how the his the people that worked under him loved him his clients loved him. He would literally send me copies of emails he would get like he was just like he was like trying to prove his case or whatever. And I couldn't even get him to talk about the alcohol which was the issue. Eventually I said well I know your wife made you come here why why does she make you come here and he's like well she doesn't like my drinking or whatever. And then he immediately he's like but this ridiculous I've missed two days of work in 20 years and she's wrong you know the standard thing or whatever. And then I said well what does she not like about your drink? Because usually it's not the fact that you're drinking it's like something that happens when you drink like do you change like what happens and he's like well I guess I can be a little mean when I'm drinking. I was like okay and then I said gosh of all the people I know you are so kind and so generous you work so hard to treat everybody so well that's probably really hard for you because that's not who you are at all. And immediately you can see the lights come on in his head and he's like, you know and now I've got him that just that little bitty statement does so much. It's a positive reinforcement it makes him feel connected to me because it makes him feel seen like really seen and it starts opening his eyes of this gap between who he is as values and what he's doing. And that gap that cognitive dissonance is what will create the desire to change such a beautiful powerful example. Thank you for sharing that yeah sometimes just a little tiny noticing statement like that will just shift someone's thinking they may not stop immediately but the change process will start.

Yuli 28:15

Incredible so I have to ask you as a therapist and somebody who deeply obviously works with clients and I assume groups as well when was the moment that you kind of decided to share all this wisdom with others and the idea for your incredible YouTube channel came up. How was that transition?

Amber 28:38

Well I would be in session talking about something, teaching something whatever. And then people would all the time say Man I wish I had that recorded or can you write that down for me? And at the time it was about the time you know YouTube was sort of popular and I thought well I could just record that and I thought well I'll just record it and I'll just share the link with my clients and then that'll save me from having to give the brain talk you know 400 times and then they'll have it or whatever, you know? And so that's how it initially got started was just from that.

Yuli 29:07

Incredible well I think you've accomplished also something that a lot of great practitioners have a challenge accomplishing is actually getting all your incredible wisdom out to people and also putting it out there in a very digestible format. I think that's one of the challenges that I'm seeing in the space a lot of people hold so much wisdom but it's really hard to communicate this wisdom.

Amber 29:34

It's it's helped me to make the content because when you do something every day you don't think about the steps. You don't think about why you said what you said or why you asked and it's forced me to have to like really dig in and understand my own process so that I could explain it, you know? And even you know even still now I'll see a dynamic happening I'm like oh yeah I see this but you don't even think about it because you you do it all the time. So it it's so like they say you know teaching is the best way to learn and I think that's probably true.

Yuli 30:04

That's a very good reason. Well if we could also with this episode encourage other practitioners or coaches or therapists to share this wisdom because I just find it so powerful and everyone I interview people like yourself who obviously have you know this deep experience and and also those examples right this is what really it's all about because I think there's so many beautiful theories out there right we all know the theory everyone can go get a psychology book on addiction and figure it out. But somehow I think as humans we learn best from stories right and we learn best even more we learn even more from examples that are very relatable.

Amber 30:48

And I think that's really where the power is yeah yeah and and having a framework right because when people are in crisis they they don't really want a whole lot of how does that make you feel they're like how do you think that makes me feel they're like what the heck do I do? That's what I'm coming to you for and so people really want like concrete you know like help me solve this problem.

Yuli 31:14

Yes. I think we sometimes underestimate this like step by step approach and it seems obvious to us but it's so not obvious to many people who need this.

Amber 31:27

Yeah. Well it wasn't obvious to me it took me a long time to figure it out. And even once I had figured it out I didn't really realize what I was doing. So having to put it into you know words and a system is a you know a whole nother challenge.

Yuli 31:42

That's incredible. Yeah such a great point. Well Amber it was just such a pleasure to chat with you and again thank you for sharing your incredible wisdom. I just before we wrap this up is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners anything maybe we didn't touch on that was really important?

Amber 32:02

I would just want people to know if you're struggling with addiction or you have a loved one who is, don't listen to all those people who tell you all those terrible statistics and don't listen to all this powerlessness. Like I see people beat this thing every day all the time and there's a million ways to do it. So I I think that hearing all that stuff just gets you down and it makes you not even want to try. And I would say it's not true and don't listen to it.

Yuli 32:28

Beautiful beautiful message well thank you again for being here and for sharing your wisdom with us. It's been such a pleasure thank you. Thanks for letting me spread my message