Speaker 1: I said let me have it, there's more.
Speaker 1: He's, the guy's been communicating with the kids and everybody else.
Speaker 1: You know, I literally I'm in the put my head in my hands and looked up and said my life is over.
Speaker 1: That's what I said.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 2: So that is from our friend Matt, and we recorded that actually a year ago and he was in the closet for 35 years basically cruising gay bars, parks, like the things that you always hear about that like you've never met a person like this.
Speaker 2: And I met him here in Dallas and we decided to interview him with Coffee with Gays.
Speaker 2: He was outed just an incredible story.
Speaker 2: It was very painful.
Speaker 2: So episode one is about his outing and then episode two is kind of like after he was outed and like his life afterwards.
Speaker 2: It's really a story of redemption and we thought it would be really good for Pride but we couldn't launch it last year for so many reasons.
Speaker 2: So this year we're launching it for Pride and I just wanted to open with that clip because I think we forget that we've come so far and there were so many people that have been in the closet and just didn't really have the ability to come out and be free.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm looking forward to watching, listening.
Speaker 3: I do appreciate that clip of Matt's episode because I had no idea.
Speaker 3: I mean, I know you guys recorded it a year ago, but thank you for showing me a little clip of that because I had.
Speaker 2: I honestly, I had no idea you for showing me a little clip of that, because I had.
Speaker 2: I honestly I had no idea.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's really amazing.
Speaker 2: So part one drops june 12th and then part two drops the next week, on june 19th welcome to coffee with gays welcome to coffee with gays everybody we are in the studio today we have a studio.
Speaker 2: I am like this is like really like we're moving on up feeling very professional tonight, very professional yes, and I'm blaine, I'm ryan, I'm adam, and we have a special guest here today matt, I'm mad well I I can't believe I'm sitting in a room with three gays.
Speaker 2: It's a fantasy with gays with coffee and the reason or the reason it is a fantasy is because matt actually has an amazing story and we just met what I don't know two weeks, three weeks ago, and matt was outed after 35 years being married and got ripped out of the freaking closet as an amazing story.
Speaker 2: And we just recently talked about coming out of the freaking closet as an amazing story, and we just recently talked about coming out of the closet ourselves and all of our stories.
Speaker 2: It's such an amazing story that I really wanted to do this segment.
Speaker 2: We really wanted to do it right, which is why we're in this studio setting today and that's what we're talking about, because it's really fascinating and we really are interested in your perspective post coming out as well.
Speaker 4: So just to give a teaser, matt literally was ripped out of the closet or exposed by a complete stranger to his entire family and they are like all in shock.
Speaker 4: But we are going to touch all about that today.
Speaker 1: Let me just add I don't consider it an amazing story.
Speaker 1: I consider it a story that I'm happy to tell, but there's a lot of different angles to it.
Speaker 1: It's very true.
Speaker 1: Happiness, sadness, yeah, so amazing isn't quite the word.
Speaker 1: I'd use A very emotional story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, we've talked for a few hours about this topic and it is very rollercoaster-esque, and we are going to do this in two parts.
Speaker 2: So this will be a two episode series that we're doing more to focus on the kind of more dark portion of it and then more your perspective after because I I really do love your perspective post a lot of this trauma that has happened to you and then a lot of the work that you have done and I think you've done so much amazing work and, um, we really want to kind of focus also on like kind of the beauty of the after, as well, also, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is I didn't think there would be and there is yes light at the end of the tunnel yeah, I'm yeah.
Speaker 5: No, I'm curious to learn too, because I know when we all shared our coming out stories but we had that choice like basically right, like we kind of all figured out what's our timing, what's our terms, and to be able to hear, I know we're going to get into your story, but what you went through because you sounds like didn't have that choice.
Speaker 5: From what I've, heard so far.
Speaker 5: I'm learning a lot of this myself as well today.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, and I have to say and we haven't done this yet and maybe we should have on other podcasts, but I do want to advise people that we will actually talk about really serious topics.
Speaker 2: So trigger warning for anyone, including experiences of being outed, family hardships and references to CSA.
Speaker 2: So listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2: So we're going to get into some deep stuff.
Speaker 2: That is all a part of this story.
Speaker 2: So are you ready to go Ready?
Speaker 2: Okay, so, matt, you are how old?
Speaker 2: 60.
Speaker 2: And you were married.
Speaker 2: Give us a little bit of your quick background Married, I was married for 35 years.
Speaker 1: I have three beautiful daughters and two grandsons.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the quick story.
Speaker 1: And how old are your kids?
Speaker 1: Grownups 33, 31, 25.
Speaker 2: And so we're sitting now right around may.
Speaker 2: Uh, when did this whole instance happen?
Speaker 2: When?
Speaker 2: When were you kind of outed the night?
Speaker 1: of, or I should say the morning of september 1st uh of last year you remember down to the dates.
Speaker 2: That's how traumatizing yeah, wow, yeah, I don't think it'll be something that you forget for sure, and so it really hasn't been that long.
Speaker 2: It's amazing, yeah, where was this?
Speaker 5: We're sitting in Dallas.
Speaker 5: Are you from Dallas?
Speaker 1: No, I work in Dallas and decided I hadn't been to a gay bar in like 15 years.
Speaker 1: And um decided I hadn't been to a gay bar in like 15 years.
Speaker 1: And after a cocktail on dinner.
Speaker 1: You know, after dinner my uh, on my own, um had a cocktail and for some reason I said, you know, let's go check out the scene in Dallas, and had you ever done that before?
Speaker 2: Cause you?
Speaker 2: You worked here regularly, right I?
Speaker 1: had never been here regularly.
Speaker 1: Right, I had never been here.
Speaker 1: No, oh, I had never been.
Speaker 1: Um, I hadn't been to a gay bar or a gay district in 15 years.
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, for some reason I just I was under a lot of stress and I was like you know what, let me um, um, you see if I can find some fun and fun, yeah.
Speaker 4: Let me have some fun in this, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So I mean it's when I talk about it, it's still, I have PTSD.
Speaker 1: It was just um.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I was on the strip, um, drank too much, much, was at a couple of bars and on my way back to my car I was intending to Uber back to the suburbs, to my work, work and a complete stranger kind of bumped into me or asked me a question and we started chatting and for some reason I um put my code into the phone to look something up.
Speaker 1: Maybe he asked me you know, is this bar closed?
Speaker 1: Or something like that, right?
Speaker 1: So anyway, we kept chatting a little bit and he just grabbed my phone and ran away with it and he was like around the corner before I knew what happened and I said, okay, well, I lost my phone, I'll figure it out, right, right, well, I lost my phone, I'll figure it out, right, right?
Speaker 1: Well, it took me probably three or four hours to find my way back to the suburbs where my hotel was, because you are nothing without your phone.
Speaker 4: We just had that not long ago.
Speaker 1: I couldn't order an Uber.
Speaker 1: I had to drive.
Speaker 1: I got lost.
Speaker 1: I stopped in a gas station that had plexiglass windows and the guy was sleeping behind the window and I'm knocking on the glass saying, hey, can you point me in the right direction?
Speaker 1: So it probably took me three and a half hours to get back to my hotel To make a 30-minute trip.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no maps go either.
Speaker 2: Remember the maps goes.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4: Are you?
Speaker 2: guys old enough for that.
Speaker 2: Or is it just me.
Speaker 2: How about the?
Speaker 5: ABC maps.
Speaker 5: Maybe it's you.
Speaker 4: You're definitely old enough for the maps go Come on the book that you used to have, that was ABC maps.
Speaker 5: I don't know what that is either.
Speaker 4: ABC maps.
Speaker 1: I forget the one we used.
Speaker 5: I could go as far back as I could go back to MapQuest.
Speaker 2: I could go back to.
Speaker 5: MapQuest.
Speaker 4: I remember you would have to go where you were and you'd be like A 4, here's a there.
Speaker 4: How do we get from here to there?
Speaker 2: I can't imagine being in a city that I didn't know and have to take highways, like our highways here in Dallas, all the way.
Speaker 1: So I took the wrong highways.
Speaker 1: I took all the wrong highways.
Speaker 1: I was nowhere near where I needed to be and just finally made it to my hotel at five in the morning and to be this to be clear.
Speaker 5: Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 5: I mean, you're not familiar at all with, you've been to Dallas for work.
Speaker 5: Whether this was the first time in Dallas for work or in Flint, no I had been.
Speaker 1: the office is in the suburbs, so I had been the offices in the suburbs so I had I'd been to the suburbs quite a bit okay, but had never been to dallas and just really my hotel was down the street from the office so I would come in and just you know, office um, hotel and local whatever yeah, and to be clear, this guy that came up to you like he was kind of flirting with you right, like no, no, no, no, it wasn't it wasn't a gay guy and you know you learn a lot in hindsight.
Speaker 1: Um, it wasn't a gay guy.
Speaker 1: He was like acting drunk and looking for fun, but in hindsight he was just a uh, kind of just a street thug.
Speaker 1: And again in more hindsight, a professional.
Speaker 1: He took my phone, went immediately to work texting everybody in my text chain as if he was me.
Speaker 1: Hey, I lost my phone, I need some money.
Speaker 1: He was into every account on my phone.
Speaker 2: We realized too, and I think we all have a lot of stories.
Speaker 2: Actually, we just had a friend the other day who was brutally beaten in the gayborhood down in Cedar Springs, and I've heard countless stories of that happening as well.
Speaker 2: So we all have to be careful.
Speaker 2: Even though we're guys, I think we tend to let our guard down.
Speaker 1: Also with phones.
Speaker 1: Apple will not help you if you don't know your Apple ID.
Speaker 2: You are fucked, adam knows that.
Speaker 2: Like you are, I didn't have the routine down.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1: I didn't have my Apple ID.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1: I didn't have my Apple ID.
Speaker 1: I didn't remember my Apple ID and by the time I was able to call Apple and get some answers, he had already changed my Apple ID and Apple told me that sorry, but that's not your account anymore, you don't own it and we can't help you.
Speaker 1: Wow, so he was into everything, uh, on my all, everything you have on your, your bank accounts your social media, everything.
Speaker 2: So, meanwhile, though, you're at the hotel, you finally made it home three hours later.
Speaker 2: So what is it?
Speaker 2: It was like five 30 in the morning.
Speaker 1: Yep, I had probably a six 30 flight that morning, um, which I missed, uh, so I had to reschedule.
Speaker 1: Now I'm trying to, I'm using my laptop to email my wife.
Speaker 1: Now, everything you think you would communicate with without your phone is out the window.
Speaker 1: So I had to email her and again, in hindsight, had no idea that this guy was communicating with my children, my friends, my family, my associates, everybody in my text chain.
Speaker 1: So they were like didn't know if it was me, didn't know if it was me emailing, matter of fact, one of my emails he responded you know he's, uh, I'm at the airport, which is not my response.
Speaker 1: So a little bit of him was like trying to like I don't know help, a little bit Like you know he's at the airport or something like that.
Speaker 1: It's just very bizarre.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I missed my first flight.
Speaker 1: I had to just rebook and when I got on the flight you know you can get Wi-Fi and I could have got Wi-Fi and like hooked up my laptop and kept communicating.
Speaker 1: I was just exhausted.
Speaker 1: I just knocked out for three hours back to home.
Speaker 4: And where is home?
Speaker 1: It's in New Jersey, new Jersey, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: So just knocked out for three hours.
Speaker 1: I got to the airport, I'm like, okay, um, I, I gotta use my laptop again, Like, how am I going to get home?
Speaker 1: I can't order an Uber.
Speaker 1: Um, I heard something similar to my name being paged while I was on my laptop by the um, you know, baggage claim area, trying to figure out how to get home, like trying to email my wife.
Speaker 1: She's like do you want me to come pick you up?
Speaker 1: I was like, yes, um, so people were searching for me.
Speaker 1: My name was was paged over overhead.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so finally, uh, my wife came.
Speaker 1: This is all on my laptop with emails.
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I'll meet you outside, you know, gate, whatever.
Speaker 1: She pulled up and so, look, I had my story all down.
Speaker 1: I had my story all set.
Speaker 1: I was at dinner it was a busy bar restaurant, somebody must have seen my code over my shoulders and then swipe my phone.
Speaker 1: I like went to the bathroom and, you know, swipe my phone.
Speaker 1: And so I took my phone.
Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't even, I didn't even know my code.
Speaker 1: My phone was broken into at that point was just, my phone was stolen, right?
Speaker 1: So I had my story all set that my phone was stolen, right.
Speaker 1: So I had my story all set that my phone was stolen.
Speaker 1: And when I got in the car and my wife said what's going on and I started with my story, my phone was stolen.
Speaker 1: She said let me have it, there's more.
Speaker 1: He's the guy's been communicating with the kids and everybody else.
Speaker 1: You know, I literally I'm in the passenger seat while she's driving.
Speaker 1: I literally like just put my head in my hands and looked up and said my life is over.
Speaker 1: That's what I said because you knew that.
Speaker 4: She knew at that point that you were down at the gay bars and how so I could have kept trying to wiggle out of it you know what I mean because, to be clear, it wasn't your first time wiggling out of it, right?
Speaker 2: no, it wasn't.
Speaker 1: And that's more to come.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it wasn't your first time wiggling out of it, right?
Speaker 1: No, it wasn't, and that's more to come.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it wasn't my first time wiggling out of it.
Speaker 1: So I could have wiggled out of it and said, yeah, I don't know what he's talking about.
Speaker 1: Like guy's nuts right and maybe could have gotten by with that.
Speaker 5: Something seemed different about her.
Speaker 5: Ask this time.
Speaker 1: It wasn't so much about her ask.
Speaker 1: I was exhausted, not just from the night.
Speaker 1: How long had I been doing this?
Speaker 1: I was exhausted from the secrets and the lies and the deception.
Speaker 1: I was exhausted, exhausted.
Speaker 1: I was like and I had always said to myself if I get found out, my life is over.
Speaker 1: Like no, no thinking like what's after that at all, it was just my life is over, like period, like because there's a lot on the line.
Speaker 4: I mean you've got a whole, a lot of blackness, you've got a whole family, you've got kids, you've got a career and everything's on the line.
Speaker 4: At this point, yeah, you're, at this point, going right, am I?
Speaker 4: Am I making this jump and hoping to god that I survived this right and I was not ever intending to come out of the closet, uh, uh, ever.
Speaker 1: I couldn't, um, I didn't want to hurt people, I didn't want to expose myself for being a fraud, which is which is what I was Right, um.
Speaker 1: So what was different, as you ask, was I was ready to throw in the towel, I was ready to like, no matter what happened.
Speaker 1: I didn't give a shit Like like, like this the charade is over, I can't, I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 1: I can't hide, I can't deceive, I can't lie.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's more after that um, but I, literally over the next four or five days, just focused on securing my accounts, while my wife's fed me sandwiches at the dining room table.
Speaker 1: Well, what did you say to your wife when she said what's going on.
Speaker 5: She had to say.
Speaker 5: She says, let me have it.
Speaker 5: I didn't give her any detail.
Speaker 1: You just stayed quiet.
Speaker 1: No, I, I, over the next three or four days, she, she was asking questions and I had said to myself I'm never going to lie again.
Speaker 1: And subsequently in treatment, I learned that I should have asked her to hold off.
Speaker 1: Let's do this with a professional.
Speaker 1: You know it's called um uh counseling.
Speaker 1: No, it's it's just therapy, not it's the kind of discovery for this, for the spouse Right, and that should be handled professionally.
Speaker 1: And I actually suggested that to her.
Speaker 1: I was like, look, can we, can we get some professional help, because I I'm not sure I should throw up all over you, right, I'm not sure that because it's a lot for you to go through and it's also a lot for her to go through.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to hurt her.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to right so she would ask questions over the next three or four days while I'm just busily trying to lock down accounts.
Speaker 1: And every question she asked me I answered honestly and I could tell with every response I gave her anger and hurt was just through.
Speaker 2: Were they probing questions?
Speaker 2: Were they about the past?
Speaker 2: Yeah, how long?
Speaker 2: How many past?
Speaker 2: More details?
Speaker 1: Yeah, how long, how many times Mm-hmm, doing what that's tough yeah.
Speaker 1: It's tough.
Speaker 1: So after those four or five days literally 18 hours a day at my kitchen table and then, you know, I got the first thing from the airport.
Speaker 1: We went right to the Apple store and got a new phone and it wasn't till like two days later I realized I was like hon did you did you shut my phone off.
Speaker 1: So I went through three days of him pouring through and sending text messages what does that?
Speaker 5: what does that mean?
Speaker 5: She shut your number down, but not your phone, or I don't?
Speaker 1: understand it was she.
Speaker 1: In other words, he couldn't use my number anymore so like text or call, you could still get into all you're still, but he still had like right yeah, so anyway, yeah, number one suggestion is know your shit like if you you lose your phone, just know your apple id and password, by the way way I've lost my phone.
Speaker 5: I've been have a truck in WeHo and had some random stranger act like he was helping me and I'm like in this case I'm like puking and drunk and I was a mess, not you.
Speaker 2: I know, oops, was it?
Speaker 2: Oops, I did it again.
Speaker 2: Wait, was it after Motherload?
Speaker 2: Probably we have to take Matt to Motherload.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that would really bring him into the community.
Speaker 5: Don't worry, we'll protect you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we have phone leashes.
Speaker 5: Now We've learned, we'll teach you all the tricks.
Speaker 5: But yeah, mine wasn't coming out related, but I was, yeah, totally without a phone.
Speaker 5: And I remember like running and asking someone to like can I log into your find my friends thing or you know, to be able to see the location.
Speaker 5: And I saw that thing like taken off three blocks away, like there was no way I was going to find my friends.
Speaker 1: If you don't have another Apple device, you can't use it.
Speaker 5: No, I like, found a stranger and I, but I knew my Apple ID and I was logged into their phone.
Speaker 5: So yes, totally agreed, and you got to know.
Speaker 5: Your remember one login to remember.
Speaker 1: People think no big deal.
Speaker 1: But without being outed, without as severe as me.
Speaker 1: But you're, everything can be stolen from you All your secrets and all your money.
Speaker 2: And what was this guy saying?
Speaker 2: You said he was extorting money.
Speaker 2: How much did he extort from people and like, who, like, how embarrassing was it Between me and two or three friends?
Speaker 1: he like eight thousand dollars wow that's crazy expensive coming out for you how about it?
Speaker 4: yeah, you can't, I mean try to get it back.
Speaker 4: You can't really get it back because it's transactional to him and his friends.
Speaker 1: So well, I, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I I know his name, I have, I know his name and phone number.
Speaker 1: I gave all of this to dallas pd.
Speaker 1: They're like what do you want to report a stolen phone?
Speaker 2: you know what can I tell you?
Speaker 2: Like, let's point this out.
Speaker 2: And we actually did an episode about the disappearances of men in their 30s at ladybird Lake in Austin, and there's been another one now.
Speaker 2: And I'm just sick and tired of these police departments.
Speaker 2: They do not care about our community and I just want to be really clear about it and they literally are like oh, it's somebody else's problem.
Speaker 2: It's gross to me.
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like it was a gay thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, they knew where my phone was stolen and knew what happened, but I didn't.
Speaker 1: I just felt like it was a big black hole of a bureaucracy.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Period, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I didn't feel that it was personal or anti-gay or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Just government bureaucratic nightmare or anything like that Just government bureaucratic nightmare.
Speaker 4: I mean because the way that the cops look at it is it's literally just a lost phone.
Speaker 4: So then the transactional part of the fraudulent part of it, that's very hard for them.
Speaker 1: Right, but there's all these websites.
Speaker 1: You know there's fraud, cybercrime websites and they point you to the you know the FBI or whatever website it is to log it there and it's a big black hole there's nobody on the other side of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you find his information?
Speaker 2: Um through the transactions oh, got it.
Speaker 1: Um, oh yeah, he was transacting with he was transacting and told them to send money to this account or that account is transacting, and told them to send money to this account or that account.
Speaker 1: Um, so yeah, and I spent.
Speaker 1: I spent hours, days tracking him down, like on every website, and paying the subscriptions to know.
Speaker 1: Try to figure out who this motherfucker was.
Speaker 1: And he's got a.
Speaker 1: He's got a.
Speaker 1: Uh rap sheet rap sheet.
Speaker 2: Oh well, that's it.
Speaker 2: But you know what?
Speaker 2: We'll let this one go, but let's put Martha Stewart in jail over a $40,000 insider trade.
Speaker 2: So that's what pisses me off.
Speaker 1: So I mean we'll, we'll get back to this, but I I wanted to.
Speaker 1: I wanted him to not be alive, just to shut him up.
Speaker 1: Every time my phone pinged those four or five days afterwards I'd have friends like joking, like you know, like jokey joke, and hey, I told him this and I had um colleagues at work like engaging him, trying to catch him.
Speaker 1: I had to tell everybody stop fucking communicating with this guy, just stop.
Speaker 1: Everybody wanted to be a hero.
Speaker 1: And then others were jokey joke about it.
Speaker 1: Every time my phone pinged I'm like, oh my God, what, what next?
Speaker 1: What next?
Speaker 1: Who did he tell what to next next?
Speaker 2: to be clear, he was saying that you were gay, right, like he was telling people that he only said it to my kids okay, what a nice guy.
Speaker 1: He was just after the money, yeah, um, otherwise.
Speaker 1: But my kids were like where's my dad?
Speaker 1: Where's my dad?
Speaker 1: And he basically said your, your father isn't, isn't the man you think he is because they confronted him at some point, right yeah, they were.
Speaker 1: They were like got angry with him over the text.
Speaker 1: They were texting me right who was him?
Speaker 1: And they're like where's my dad?
Speaker 1: Where's my dad?
Speaker 1: Like you're a jerk or whatever, and kind of got into it with him.
Speaker 1: And that's when he said your father isn't who you think he is wow, yeah, he was someplace where he shouldn't have been um so and they all believed it.
Speaker 2: And I have to say like, um, why did they all believe it?
Speaker 2: Believed what well?
Speaker 2: They've got this scam artist on the other end of the phone saying they're your dad's at a gay bars, at the gay bars in dallas.
Speaker 2: Like why did they believe it?
Speaker 5: you know, I gotta say isn't that happen a lot like?
Speaker 5: There's just a sense from other people, we and a lot of times it's acknowledging it for ourselves I have issues with my family sense it was discovery.
Speaker 1: they both saw stuff on my phone or text exchanges and never talked to each other.
Speaker 1: Never talked to me, never talked to their mother.
Speaker 4: That's a family to keep that, beat Clint.
Speaker 5: Not anymore in this career, not in ours.
Speaker 2: They held it secret Really In my family, like I have those.
Speaker 2: I had those secrets too, especially with my dad, and I think I've talked about that before too.
Speaker 2: I actually we talked a lot about this, like I knew stuff that my dad was doing, that I just was.
Speaker 2: I would actually clean up after him so that my mother would never know and she's caught him too, and uh, I could see how that would happen for sure so what did your daughter say to you?
Speaker 4: so?
Speaker 1: over those next four or five days.
Speaker 1: I tried to keep it hidden from my daughters so I wasn't gonna give it up to them.
Speaker 1: Okay, kind of foggy about um, but I wasn't ready to, like my wife knew.
Speaker 1: So I try, I kind of tried to keep up the charade with um, my, my one daughter, who was local in New Jersey, and, um, I could tell everything out of my mouth.
Speaker 1: She was not buying but was would accept it and move on and you know, talk about something else.
Speaker 1: Um, so it wasn't until after the paperwork was all done, um, and my wife was just very calm and, like I said, feeding me sandwiches and you know there was a barbecue happening.
Speaker 1: And she's like feeding me sandwiches and you know there was a barbecue happening.
Speaker 1: And she's like come on, you need a break, you don't come out, let's, let's go to the barbecue or whatever.
Speaker 1: And, um, the first one, I was like no, a barbecue yeah, like a community barbecue.
Speaker 1: No, like a friend of cookout backyard, it was a backyard just to get into the house.
Speaker 4: You're not sitting here like with friends not planned around this?
Speaker 2: yeah, and just like, come on out no, but like I'm I mean god bless your wife, because I would be so angry at you?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 2: So that's just I'm saying no I get it from the barbecue I love that she's concerned about you and your well-being and like let's go to a barbecue no, she, she knew I was, I was a wreck, I was just I was just.
Speaker 1: I was like this, I was just, wow, a wreck.
Speaker 1: And she's like come on, you need a break.
Speaker 1: And she knew I was like working on important stuff, right, um so, but anyway, after that was all like kind of nailed down and things had calmed down a little bit.
Speaker 1: That was the time where, okay, we have time, me and my wife, to like deal with this straight on deal with this year, aside from the and she basically very calmly, said I think you should go live in Arizona, whereas I have two other kids out there and we have a house in Arizona.
Speaker 1: Said what do you mean Like?
Speaker 1: I was so delusional I was.
Speaker 1: She said you're delusional At one point I forget what we were talking about.
Speaker 1: It was absolutely delusional.
Speaker 1: I was like what do you mean Like?
Speaker 4: wellaine knows about that.
Speaker 2: I've been called delusional Debbie by some people.
Speaker 1: So when it struck me that she wanted me out, I took a little hissy fit and said, okay, well, I'm going to leave tonight and started packing bags.
Speaker 1: I'm going to stay at a hotel.
Speaker 1: And she's like what the fuck are you doing?
Speaker 1: She goes I didn't mean tonight.
Speaker 1: I said, well, if you don't want me, I'm leaving.
Speaker 1: I like flipped it around on her oh geez, you know I'm leaving.
Speaker 1: Like I can't stay here if you don't want me.
Speaker 1: Total gaslighting.
Speaker 1: And she laid into me, slammed the door, left.
Speaker 4: Respectfully.
Speaker 1: I mean she, I mean completely, like she was so pissed off that I flipped it around on her like for absolute good reason, and she was texting, and so when she slammed the door and left, I literally had that's when my nervous breakdown happened.
Speaker 1: I just I just fell apart.
Speaker 1: I just fell apart and she was like we were texting, like fuck you, fuck you, you're going to blame me for doing for, for, for, uh response, reacting this way and I was like I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, please come back, please come back.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do this.
Speaker 1: Like I was on my, I was on my hands and knees, like next to the bed, like just in a fucking pile, and she came back and then my daughter came over and I was hysterical.
Speaker 1: They were, they were going to take me to like an emergency room, like literally, like didn't know what to do with me, like take me to a mental hospital or you know so, um, and still, at this point, your kids have no idea what's going on so my, my daughter, my oldest daughter, came over back.
Speaker 1: She said, okay, I'll come back.
Speaker 1: She came back with my daughter and my daughter's, like dad, it's okay, I already knew.
Speaker 4: I already knew we love you oh, that's really nice so I was gonna say that's got to be a little bit of a relief.
Speaker 4: I mean, mean, there's still a lot of trauma, but that's going to be a little relief of like, okay, my kids aren't running from me.
Speaker 1: Like I was.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to explain it, but I was in a state where I couldn't even digest anything being said to me.
Speaker 1: I was just literally, you know, when you're a kid, you're like what's a nervous breakdown?
Speaker 1: Right, you were a neighbor.
Speaker 1: Neighbor being taken away in an ambulance because of a nervous breakdown.
Speaker 1: I'm like what the hell's that, right?
Speaker 5: Well, that's what I had.
Speaker 1: That's what I had and I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I couldn't digest anything that was being said to me.
Speaker 1: My other daughter had found out about a treatment facility in Arizona because an executive at her company was very public about what happened to him.
Speaker 1: As a kid with, I'll do the code word CSA.
Speaker 5: I just paused like how did she feel this was related to your situation?
Speaker 2: because I was also a victim of csa and did your kids know about this already, or is it coming?
Speaker 1: out during this.
Speaker 1: All came out in these five days.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is a lot unwrapped, that's I think, but so yeah wow, and I was confused about csa versus my true sexuality.
Speaker 1: Like I, I didn't know how to pull the two apart and the csa was my excuse, my uh, I'm not gay, you know I was mixing the two.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: In hindsight again, it was total excuse.
Speaker 4: Do you think you were using it as a crutch or do you think that you actually were?
Speaker 4: Like you know what?
Speaker 4: I'm really confused on what this is.
Speaker 1: No, it's kind of weird Like this is going to sound so weird, but probably like 20 years ago, you know, before the, the platforms, the hookup platforms, before any of that, there was just but finding each other somehow, some way, I was actually in the woods at a rest area, basically jerking off with a dude.
Speaker 4: Happens on the Katy Trail all the time.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: And he asked me.
Speaker 1: He said are you out?
Speaker 1: And I said no, no, I'm not out.
Speaker 1: He goes.
Speaker 1: Well, you're.
Speaker 1: You're out to yourself.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you, I had six weeks of therapy that him saying that to me gave me like a free card to keep.
Speaker 1: That rationalized my behavior, my, my awful behavior, because I was saying to myself okay, well, I'm out to myself, I deserve this.
Speaker 1: Like you know, I'm, I'm gay to myself.
Speaker 4: Um, so this is our guy.
Speaker 5: What?
Speaker 5: What's the off?
Speaker 5: You're calling it Awful behavior.
Speaker 5: What are you classifying as the?
Speaker 5: To do whatever he wants, I mean, but is that the awful behavior, or is it that it's a secret, or you're knowing how you're treating others in the process, or like how does?
Speaker 1: that.
Speaker 1: So the awful behavior in hindsight, while it was happening it was no harm, no foul.
Speaker 1: If nobody knows about it, I'm entitled to this and as long as I don't bring home a disease and super careful, I'm entitled to this.
Speaker 1: Right, you gotta remember.
Speaker 1: He's also married, Is your?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 1: With married kids.
Speaker 1: So the awful part of it again in hindsight, I was just so fucked up I was cheating on my wife.
Speaker 1: Now again, another excuse is yeah, but I wasn't cheating with a woman on my wife.
Speaker 1: I actually said that to her in those four or five days.
Speaker 1: She's like are you fucking delusional?
Speaker 4: I wasn't hooking up with a woman.
Speaker 1: I felt like you know she would be, you know, I thought that would help her.
Speaker 2: She looked like a man.
Speaker 2: It's amazing to me and we talked in our coming out stories that the rationalizations you make when you are coming out to yourself and I think about all the gay chat rooms I was in and all the guys even when I had a relationship in Argentina overseas and then came back and was with a woman after that, I still made rationalizations.
Speaker 2: It was like, well, it was a phase.
Speaker 2: I'm over it now, right, I think you can rationalize yourself into I'm actually not gay.
Speaker 2: It was a phase and especially if you have a lot to lose, I could see how that is and I think that's why I find your story so important is, I think there's a big misunderstanding, because we had a lesbian friend of ours on who had a husband and she just came out and proud and some of the comments we got on that one was oh, how could she do that to that guy?
Speaker 2: But again, she kept convincing herself she wasn't gay, like everything that she did, even though it screamed.
Speaker 2: I'm a lesbian and you know everything I did screamed I was gay, and you too.
Speaker 2: It's amazing how you can rationalize yourself into like, well, it's not what it seems.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm past it now, right.
Speaker 1: So there were also two or three events along the way in our marriage that to most it would seem obvious what was going on, and I kind of explained them away each time and at one point went to a therapist and blamed the CSA.
Speaker 1: You know, in other words, after a few weeks of therapy I hate it to sound like this, but I'd come home from therapy and my wife would be how'd it go, how'd it go, how'd it go?
Speaker 1: Every time I came home from therapy, like I was thinking like here's my chance to like just fucking come out with it, right, and she would just be how'd it go, how'd it go, how'd it go?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, it was the CSA, it's all good, we pulled it apart.
Speaker 1: I just couldn't, just couldn't, I just couldn't hurt her, which is so fucked up, you know.
Speaker 1: Like now she's like why didn't you tell me then or then, or then or then?
Speaker 4: Well, again, I think it goes back to a point of life and this is for every day and, man, there's got to be a breaking point.
Speaker 4: There's a breaking point where you sit there and say I've had enough of living this liable life and now I've already, I've been in this so much now that I just I have to, I have to cut this off and just be true to yourself, and it's one of the hardest things that anybody will ever go through.
Speaker 4: And there's people out there that are probably going to watch this tour in the closet a thousand percent and say I'll never do it.
Speaker 4: But you will come to a point in your life where you are going to say enough's, enough, I'm not doing this anymore.
Speaker 2: But to your point, you still felt like you weren't gay.
Speaker 2: Right, I was very confused and if you're not out to yourself and you don't think you're gay, like how can you?
Speaker 1: so I kind of knew, I was gay, but like, like, let's, let's just.
Speaker 1: In other words, adam, like to your point, there was no way, I was never going to come out, no matter if I thought I was gay or didn't think I was gay, like it just wasn't going to happen because I didn't want to hurt people around me Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I was too deep.
Speaker 1: I was in too deep.
Speaker 1: Little did I know that two of my kids already knew.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I guess what I would say to others who are in the closet is you're not doing anybody a favor, because, you know, in therapy it was explained to me that it's like it's like holding a beach ball underwater it's very true.
Speaker 4: It's trying to come up.
Speaker 4: You can't, you can't do it forever, right?
Speaker 1: um?
Speaker 1: I never would have volunteered.
Speaker 1: So you talk about me being.
Speaker 1: I wasn't courageous at all.
Speaker 1: I was a coward.
Speaker 1: Um, I, I was, I was, I was caught.
Speaker 4: What would you have done if your kids would have sat you down and said look, we know you're gay and we still love you?
Speaker 1: Would you probably still have denied it.
Speaker 1: We've actually had brief conversations about that and we're all like I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, like what would you have.
Speaker 1: I would have said what would you have?
Speaker 1: I would have said what would you have wanted me to do to the kids, right, and they would have said I don't know, like I don't know, if you want to, I want you to hurt mom, let's just keep it a secret.
Speaker 1: Or they, you know they obviously didn't come to me and say fuck you Right, rat you out because it's a double-edged sword.
Speaker 4: if you're sitting there with your kids and your kids are like, hey, we know you're gay, and then you're sitting there going what if I say, yes, my wife's gonna find out and I'm going through a divorce?
Speaker 4: But then if you flip it and your wife's the one sitting there saying you know, hey, I know you're gay, then you're sitting there, going I have all my kids and like, this is going to change all the dynamic with my kids.
Speaker 4: So it's a very double edged sword that you you know it's a tough thing to go through.
Speaker 1: So look, I'm saying I never would have.
Speaker 1: I never would have come out voluntarily.
Speaker 1: I was literally ripped out of the closet in a very violent way.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, this guy did me a favor and I think he did everybody a favor.
Speaker 1: He did even my wife, as much as she's hurting and in pain and fucking hates me right now, and my kids, who are now going through a phase of yeah, I don't want to hear about your happy gay life and like there's phases we have yet to go through.
Speaker 1: But in the end I'm absolutely 100 convinced, a hundred percent convinced, that everybody is better off.
Speaker 2: I'll agree.
Speaker 2: I agree with that.
Speaker 2: But I also have to give you a little credit too.
Speaker 2: You did come out, because I I mean you said it here.
Speaker 2: But then, even with adam and I, when we were talking to you before this, you said like I finally realized, like it was time, like I'm not.
Speaker 2: You could have lied, you could have kept the lie going, and everybody could have accepted it again.
Speaker 5: So exhausted you talked about what, how many years of keeping that, trying to hold up each one for 35 years.
Speaker 1: But you know, since I was, you know, 11 when the csa started, um, and I was told you know, you know, you're not a faggot, right?
Speaker 1: You're not a homo, right?
Speaker 1: Who?
Speaker 1: Was this you like girls, right?
Speaker 1: I don't want to say who it was, so it was like yeah, no, of course not.
Speaker 1: You know, no, I'm not gay.
Speaker 1: You know, I have a girlfriend.
Speaker 5: So suppressing that from a very early age, yeah, and something that's been on my mind.
Speaker 5: Mind, though, too, because I mean suppressing that, but like that, you talked about the phases.
Speaker 5: Um, you know you need to go through and this is all fresh but the fact that you have so much of a life before the moment that this guy ripped this rip ripped you out of the closet and you have that life that you have to mourn yourself and be able to let I mean that's it died, and to to realize that is traumatic and but like know that it is gonna.
Speaker 5: It has to take some time and you have to have that you hit the nail on the head.
Speaker 1: I mean mean, there's a mourning process and I probably skipped too much of it.
Speaker 1: I feel myself kind of getting back into the mourning, like after the novelty of, oh hey, I'm gay and you know, let's go out on the strip and be me and I don't have to worry about being caught or whatever.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of getting back into that phase of um, sadness, um, and yeah, the whole family is mourning, the family we're not anymore.
Speaker 4: So but it will get better.
Speaker 4: It will get better because, especially like with like with my family was very I don't want to say strange, but like it definitely put a wedge in there, but it it has brought us a little shirt together in the end and it's and it's yeah, it will come back around thank god for father time.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes it um my mother called it also a morning and I thought that was the best thing I've ever heard in all of the coming out stories.
Speaker 2: I've heard um, because so many people say like, oh, you know I'm coming out.
Speaker 2: And everybody've heard Um cause so many people say like, oh, you know I'm coming out and everybody just has to accept it, and I'm so glad you're letting your family have space and not just being like, ah, just, you have to accept it, cause I think a lot of people in community expect that like even the 90 year olds and 80 year olds that like just don't get it.
Speaker 2: You know, like my grandmother took 14 years to accept it, and I think that's totally fine.
Speaker 2: And I and like my mom said she said it's just like I mourned the death of a dream.
Speaker 2: When you were born, I had a dream, I had this whole idea of what you were going to be, and just because one thing died, it didn't mean something else wasn't born.
Speaker 2: So I think that's what's exciting about part two of this is we're talking about kind of like what you're starting to experience at the birth of new things.
Speaker 2: But your family's also still struggling kind of with the death, and so are you, and I think that's something that people need to realize.
Speaker 2: It's a natural process of this.
Speaker 1: But in the end, I think truthfulness, being true to yourself and being true to the ones you love, there's just.
Speaker 1: You know, I always said to myself am I, am I gonna, on my deathbed?
Speaker 1: Am I gonna, am I gonna keep this secret?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean I was, and my kids actually cried over that.
Speaker 1: They were like, wow, you've been like stifling this for all this time.
Speaker 4: It's tough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you find a lot of help in therapy?
Speaker 2: You said you went to a facility which I think you told us was not cheap.
Speaker 2: No, I think Adam was about to have a heart attack when he talked about it.
Speaker 5: And how did you find?
Speaker 5: This was the, the place that your daughter helped you find yeah, so we got part of the choosing this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, again I was catatonic.
Speaker 1: I was like in the um, I was rock bottom, right, rock bottom.
Speaker 1: If you don't know what rock bottom is, I know exactly what rock bottom is.
Speaker 1: You can imagine what rock bottom is until you're there, you don't.
Speaker 1: You don't know what it is.
Speaker 1: I was at rock bottom.
Speaker 1: So, anyway, my daughter found the facility because an executive head of her company had been there for the CSA.
Speaker 1: I write the check, have to wire the money.
Speaker 1: There I have a conversation.
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, you qualify for the services.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I qualify for them to take my $70,000.
Speaker 1: Right, um, I need to go to therapy, just for that.
Speaker 5: So I was paying a lot for therapy.
Speaker 1: So I get on a plane you know um and coach probably yeah.
Speaker 1: So I get on a plane and, uh, did it include?
Speaker 1: Did it include travel?
Speaker 5: yeah, no, fuck, no, oh my gosh they.
Speaker 1: They offered to send a van to the airport to pick me up at least they did that.
Speaker 1: How nice of them.
Speaker 1: I declined that.
Speaker 1: My daughter drove me.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I would be like for that much money, I want to be in first class, I want to be pampered.
Speaker 4: I better have drinks.
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 5: was this in Alabama, so is it passages?
Speaker 5: No, let me tell you guys.
Speaker 1: Like I'm so mixed.
Speaker 1: I could go on for another three hours about this facility and about the treatment.
Speaker 1: I could go on for another three hours about this facility and about the treatment, totally like good over here, bad over here, good over here, bad over here, like I'm pissed about it here and I'm grateful for it there, and at the end I can't pick it apart.
Speaker 1: Right At the end, it's what I need.
Speaker 1: I needed to be a way, I needed to think.
Speaker 1: I needed people to help me think.
Speaker 5: But anyway, my first night, at this place which was kind of regimented and it was not a country club and nothing like the pictures.
Speaker 5: So this isn't like the brochure.
Speaker 5: Could you imagine the Olympic?
Speaker 1: sized pool was, like you know, a pot, you know a hot tub.
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically a hot tub.
Speaker 2: My friend went to one of these facilities for another problem and uh, and he thought there was horse therapy and there really wasn't we did have horse therapy oh, you did have horse therapy, okay well, at least you had the red verse in
Speaker 1: so the first night there I was like yeah, whatever, like, like, and everybody was like um, what do you call it?
Speaker 1: Come to the group, submit yourself like give up, like, um, what do you call it?
Speaker 1: um commitment, just surrender, your surrender right I walk through those doors and like fucking, fix me.
Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm surrendered, I'm rock bottom.
Speaker 1: Like fix me right, I was catatonic.
Speaker 1: The first evening group circle.
Speaker 1: There's 24 or 5 guys at any given time going through the program.
Speaker 1: Who's all men, all men.
Speaker 1: I hear the first guy start Hi, my name is Larry, I'm a sex addict.
Speaker 1: And here's what I do.
Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Bill, I'm a sex addict.
Speaker 1: Blah, blah, blah Down the line.
Speaker 1: By the time they got to the fifth person sex or porn or masturbation addiction, but it was sex addiction.
Speaker 4: That's when you're like I'm in the wrong group, I'm at the wrong place.
Speaker 4: Have you?
Speaker 2: guys.
Speaker 2: Seen the out-of-towners with Goldie Hawn and what's-his-face where they literally go and they're in a church like trying to get food.
Speaker 1: I was like sex addicts.
Speaker 1: I was like where the fuck am I?
Speaker 5: Like no, you didn't ask for it, you didn't say hey take me to.
Speaker 1: I had no fucking clue, none, wow, now I didn't, I didn't like fight it because, like, that was the common thread with everybody.
Speaker 1: But there were other, you know, there was drug and alcohol addiction.
Speaker 1: That was kind of a common thread and I had, I had, throughout my life, acted out in sexually inappropriate ways.
Speaker 1: So there was a little bit of like OK, a little bit of like okay, um, but again, in the end, while I and I do not consider or ever in my history have been a sex addict, um the time away, and the therapist I had, who was, um, therapist I had, who was lesbian Again in hindsight she was trying to like Coax me out of the closet and I was like, all through treatment, I was like no, like you know, so you were still denying being gay.
Speaker 1: It wasn't until two months after the treatment when I was like Fuck, am I kidding?
Speaker 1: How long was treatment?
Speaker 1: Six weeks, six weeks, six weeks, no.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've started treatment facility.
Speaker 2: What are you going to treat?
Speaker 2: You're just going to yell at everybody.
Speaker 2: You get intrigued.
Speaker 5: You're just going to yell at everybody.
Speaker 5: I'm curious how I have someone who's very close to me and similar story as you and around the same age, married with kids and came out and he was also sent to a facility like this and so also a victim of CSA that I don't know.
Speaker 5: Okay, Also a victim of CSA that I don't know.
Speaker 5: Okay, Equated the you know, coming out or discovering yourself as homosexual or gay, or you know those experiences automatically, you know, ship them off to a sex addiction treatment place.
Speaker 2: Like I'm just I was fascinated.
Speaker 2: But to be clear, though, that's not what your daughter was trying to do here.
Speaker 2: She just knew a good facility and she knew that you had.
Speaker 2: She had just heard that you had had this traumatic experience as a child, right?
Speaker 2: So she wasn't saying dad's a sex addict, she's just trying to get a chance as a matter of fact, that guy was in a different program than I was in.
Speaker 1: He wasn't in the exact same program.
Speaker 1: The one that she similar, yeah, but I wasn't like, hey, what program were you in?
Speaker 1: But I was asking all the nurses and therapists I'm like, hey, do you know this guy's name?
Speaker 1: Like, do you know so-and-so.
Speaker 1: They're like, hmm, um, and then afterwards, so cool, afterwards, um, I met him and talked about my time there and it's like, and all these guys, these, these 24 guys, at any given time, I have probably a handful of these guys that are brothers forever who did awful stuff and had, and probably still do have, uh, awful, um, you know, addictions and behaviors.
Speaker 1: But to be able to talk to someone so openly, and this guy I just met him after treatment, met him for lunch, the detail that we both got into on what our issues were, like we're just bonded, right, um, so that's what that treatment facility it was like, hey, we, we can say anything to each other, we're brothers, that's awesome yeah, that's awesome, but what did you learn most about yourself?
Speaker 1: and that I think what really hurts me the most is I was so fucking entitled.
Speaker 1: I went through it.
Speaker 1: Like, when I was in, I was like, wait a minute, was that me?
Speaker 1: Did I fucking do that for all this time?
Speaker 1: Like, did I really do that, did I?
Speaker 1: And, even worse, when I was doing all that, I had no guilt because I had the card.
Speaker 1: I had the card from the dude in the woods You're out to yourself.
Speaker 1: And I literally turned around and like God, like I did that, like that was me, like lying and cheating gaslighting the fuck out of my wife and my family like all those years.
Speaker 2: What were the things that you confronted?
Speaker 2: That was the revelation for me.
Speaker 1: Like I was a fucking fraud, yeah, and all the tests were like you have no fucking self-esteem, you have no this, no that.
Speaker 2: I was rock bottom, just a pile of fucking rubble.
Speaker 2: Was this normally when you?
Speaker 1: would just be like out on business trips and stuff, yeah, um, yeah, I mean wherever you find the opportunity and whenever it was very sporadic and, um, you know, I was i% this, you know, the, the, the business executive, the, the great father, the great husband, the provider, 98%, that.
Speaker 1: And hey, I'm entitled to this other 2%.
Speaker 1: Who's it going to hurt?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 1: So it wasn't, it wasn't like a lot and it was kind of like okay'm stressed, I'm and I'm entitled to this.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna go treat myself right that the acting out wasn't a lot.
Speaker 5: I feel like I don't know the way I'm hearing like the two percent is the acting out on something that might actually be a huge percentage of you, more than the 2%.
Speaker 5: So inside that actually did feel very heavy.
Speaker 1: I thought I was so good at compartmentalizing.
Speaker 1: I was a stress ball In the later year or two.
Speaker 1: My family they could see I was just stressed out and not happy and then like to be clear, like, were you like going to?
Speaker 2: you weren't going to gay bars, but you like go to cruising spots, and so I mean, what's fascinating about your story to me in the, in the world of grinder and these apps, which is kind of a newer thing, like, how did this evolve?
Speaker 1: like so, I thought about this.
Speaker 1: So in the earlier days it was a lot of.
Speaker 1: It was cruising rest areas or whatever, gyms or whatever were you a lot lizard a, what, a, what a lot lizard.
Speaker 2: What's that he's always got?
Speaker 2: He's always got some weird country thing from maryland?
Speaker 2: No, I think is that a trucker thing where you yeah, it's called a lot lizard free, were you like?
Speaker 1: a truck stop you go to a truck stop and like oh well, but anyway so he's like and thenr with you know, hookups here and there and, yes, obviously on business trips in the last three or four years, like I didn't want random hookups and I had three or four friends that were I guess you'd call them regulars and they felt like friends.
Speaker 1: Right In hindsight it was a friendship always based on sex, right, but it felt so much better than hookups and I really like I didn't even want to, I didn't even want to go on Grindr, so in the end it wasn't.
Speaker 1: I wasn't looking for sex, I was more looking for someone I could talk to and be open about who I am, and it always kind of had to involve sex because that's kind of the only reason they wanted to be my friend, right reasons.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, um, and it's so, not about sex now, yeah like it's weird, do you still talk to any of those guys?
Speaker 2: Um one I do, yeah, interesting by the way, I love a regular.
Speaker 2: I I actually one of the things I hate about when the hookup apps came out.
Speaker 2: I just used to have regulars all the time in dallas.
Speaker 2: That was great just like it's, just like the boy tornado, but they were just regulars and yeah.
Speaker 1: And I kind of know who they are, what they do, how much they sleep around and you know on grinder, you know the aspect where it's like you know, come just, you know, I'm your cum dump.
Speaker 2: I'm your cum dump.
Speaker 2: I'm like yeah, no, I'm not.
Speaker 2: That is a definite no.
Speaker 2: So you wouldn't be hitting up Adam on a grinder then, because that's basically his grinder.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sorry, that's your sniffies profile.
Speaker 2: That's your sniffies profile, adam sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm no, I'm no prude, but I guess it's.
Speaker 1: It's not all about sex, it's just so little about sex.
Speaker 1: It aston's just so little about sex.
Speaker 1: It astonishes me now.
Speaker 2: Did you feel like therapy really helped you break through a lot of your challenges?
Speaker 2: And by the time you were out, after six weeks, you're in this new world, and that's kind of what we're going to talk about in our next part.
Speaker 2: What was that like?
Speaker 2: Were you cured?
Speaker 2: Obviously not cured.
Speaker 2: We're not talking about like conversion therapy here, but like, did you feel like you weren't at breakdown status?
Speaker 2: And then, what did you feel like like when you were let out?
Speaker 2: So, and what did you do?
Speaker 2: Did you go back with your wife, or you with your daughter?
Speaker 1: no again.
Speaker 1: So much in hindsight.
Speaker 1: So my first call with my wife in therapy was like you're allowed your first phone call like three weeks into it, Like no phone, no outside contact.
Speaker 2: You don't get contact.
Speaker 2: Adam, I have never been to therapy.
Speaker 2: I've had plenty of friends.
Speaker 2: Am I the only one?
Speaker 2: Have you had friends go away?
Speaker 2: Oh okay, it's just me continue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah and maybe some is like wow, part of me is like wow, I went away like yeah, geez, in a flick.
Speaker 1: By the way, matt, there are many times to be to be clear.
Speaker 2: There are many times where I've like I'm gonna check myself into the hospital because I don't want my phone to bing.
Speaker 2: I don't want anyone to talk to me.
Speaker 2: There's many a times where I've like I'm going to check myself into the hospital because I don't want my phone to bing.
Speaker 4: I don't want anyone to talk to me.
Speaker 4: There's many a times where I want to check you into yeah for sure.
Speaker 2: I mean there are times where life becomes a lot and you just are like look, I just need to go away.
Speaker 1: I mean I can tell you it'll probably happen to me at some point and I told my boss, who was the CEO of the company and I run North America.
Speaker 1: I couldn't even talk to him.
Speaker 1: I emailed him and said hey, I got to duck out for a few weeks.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of pain.
Speaker 1: Um, he was fucking amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1: He said I love you.
Speaker 1: He got so much pressure from the board of directors.
Speaker 1: I found out afterwards like what the fuck?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 1: You know the guy who's running North America.
Speaker 1: You don't know what he's doing, what he you know what's going on and it it seemed like you know a mental health issue.
Speaker 1: Um, just doesn't, doesn't cut it.
Speaker 1: Like if I had a massive coronary.
Speaker 1: Doesn't cut it.
Speaker 2: Like if I had a massive coronary, everybody I would have had flowers sent to my hospital.
Speaker 1: Yeah, um, mental health is very different.
Speaker 1: Um, yeah, so, and I don't think it's intentional, but it's like wait a minute, our fucking executive is not up for you is weak oh, they're talking about that because they don't know the situation.
Speaker 2: What's that bullshit?
Speaker 1: I mean, they have no idea what you're actually going through but if my boss was able to say no, he had a massive heart attack, everyone would have been fine, but obviously it was a mental health issue.
Speaker 1: He didn't know any detail around it, right?
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, um, that doesn't fly the same as a, as you know, a heart attack.
Speaker 2: A heart attack right and as someone who's worked as hard as you have and and manage people and stuff, like I mean I know, because like that's kind of like my history it is it's exhausting and you eventually mentally get exhausted and there is going to be there is a breaking point for everybody.
Speaker 1: And work was my escape from like all this stuff, like that's where I put all my energy, yeah, when you're.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So they were, they were benefiting from it all this time, but only so much I could take, um, and then the event happened so, yeah, it's good that you got that space.
Speaker 2: I'm glad that there was someone there for you.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've actually had a really amazing executive that did the same thing for me and I was like thank god, I mean, it's the first time in my life, but it just doesn't happen often.
Speaker 2: I think it's very much a us thing, um, but it is you know kind of what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So wow, that was like so intense, so heavy that was a short version that's a short version.
Speaker 2: Can you believe that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I have to say, matt, your story is super incredible and also, I just think, like really good for people, because because I think one of the things that is a misconception is that everybody's out now.
Speaker 2: You know, our community is so welcoming and the country is so welcoming that you know it's just okay to be K, but there are so many people that have been stuck or are not ready to come out to themselves.
Speaker 2: There's just so many circumstances and we have to be really respectful of everybody's individual story absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And there, look, I was with them, I was amongst them, right, all of these people in the closet, um, so there's a lot of them.
Speaker 1: Um, so there's a lot of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know there's a lot of them.
Speaker 1: I was in the in the closet club.
Speaker 1: We all shared the secret Um, so I don't know if I, if I, if I can help anyone like to learn before, after, and then we're going to talk about after Um.
Speaker 1: That that's why I'm here, is I don't feel special for what I've been through or what, what I've done, um, but if I had a little more insight earlier on, um, I wouldn't have had to be ripped out of the closet.
Speaker 2: I would have figured out a plane Awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's all about resources too, and you kind of hope to write a book, probably right.
Speaker 1: I would love to.
Speaker 1: I mean, if there's a purpose behind it, if I can really nail down that purpose, and I think I know the purpose.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I would love to write a book.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you definitely have a purpose and you have such a great story and I'm loving what we're going to talk about in part two of this because it's actually kind of like the more positive stuff where this was like the more heavy part of it.
Speaker 2: yeah and we'll be back at part two with one night stand diet but you know, just, I think for me, like to your point, like I just don't think people know that there are resources in their community, and I think I mean, the Trevor Project is a huge resource out there and it's probably one of the biggest well-known.
Speaker 4: I have no clue what that is Really.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, trevor Project is a counseling where it's other gay people that will actually be a part of the Trevor Project and it's like for people who are in the closet, who are having a hard time getting coming out of the closet or have been vacated, like their parents kicked them out of the house.
Speaker 4: They help them through all of that stuff yeah, huge, yeah.
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is when I was on the other side of the wall no clue what that was right so in other words um.
Speaker 4: The marketing needs to step up in that department to help people understand what's out there.
Speaker 2: By the way, I'm going to be very honest with our gay organizations.
Speaker 2: They do need to step up, because we talk about so many things and our gay organizations have tons of money.
Speaker 2: The Trevor Project is literally the number one donated to organization during Gay Pride and I think like they should really make sure that they're doing the outreach.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 4: But I think the hardest thing is trying to get that community that they don't realize how to get their hands around people who are in the closet, how to reach out to them.
Speaker 1: Trevor.
Speaker 1: In other words, Trevor has to be found.
Speaker 1: Yes, they have to be visible.
Speaker 5: Like I have to be.
Speaker 1: They're not be found.
Speaker 1: Yes, they have to be visible.
Speaker 1: They have to be.
Speaker 1: They're not going to recruit people.
Speaker 1: They have to be found Right by people who want.
Speaker 4: People who are looking, people who are gay, know about it, but people who don't, who are not gay, have no idea.
Speaker 4: It's like a 14-year-old trying to get driver's ed, like you.
Speaker 2: Just don't understand it because you've ever been through it, unless you have somebody to walk you into it yeah, and that's part of this, like telling this story, and another organization that I'm a huge fan of it actually really helped my mom and my family during my coming out was p flag, which is um parents, families and friends of lesbians, gays and um.
Speaker 2: They offer a ton of support and counseling as well.
Speaker 2: And then I I have to say, like one of my biggest unlocks when it comes to resources for the community, recently out people or people thinking about it there's always a local gay organization.
Speaker 2: Here in Dallas we have the Resource Center.
Speaker 2: They offer therapy that is either free or like 15 bucks a session.
Speaker 2: That is super great, and then they also have medical resources and a bunch of other stuff, but every single well, like most city most cities.
Speaker 5: I mean there's a lot of, yeah, rural areas.
Speaker 2: If you have people out, you know, not in the large cities that might not have as many resources and that's even tougher he will go ahead and post a link to RAINN in the comments as well, which also has a hotline for CSM at 1-800-656-HOPE, and they also have resources as well for nationwide help as well.
Speaker 2: So the next episode is your new beginning and embracing the community, which is something that you and I talked about, and I'm really excited for you and the future.
Speaker 2: So don't forget to subscribe to Coffee with Gaze.
Speaker 2: I mean, this has been a great episode.
Speaker 2: I really, really enjoyed it.
Speaker 4: So tune in for the next episode, cheers.
Speaker 2: Cheers.
Speaker 2: Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 2: Cheers, matt, thank you for telling your story.
Speaker 2: We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: It means a lot.