Bonus Episode: Behind the Scenes with Brooke & Jenny

Join Jenny & Brooke Koeninger for a bonus behind the scenes episode where they discuss finding professional joy, balancing being a working mom, and all the things in between.

You can find Brooke through her websites BrookeK.com and ThisIsUsRising.com or connect with her on Instagram @brookekcoaching

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Transcript

Brooke (05:46.782)

100%. It's so crazy, Jenny, because like, and I think eventually, it's been two years now, and I think I will find my way back, or some blending. Like, I don't think, I don't think I was 100% off in my 20-year career, right? Like, there's something that I found, but I certainly did not follow, like, you know, follow your gut and your, what's fun and what you like every day. It was like, this is where I need to get to, right? Like,

Brooke (06:15.102)

Right? And honestly, having kids, I'll tell you a story. And stop me if you want to like divert something else. But like having kids for me, we like, I won't go down in details, but we were in the middle of moving. My husband and I were transferring jobs. We had our first, and I was finishing grad school or whatever. And I literally was like, I mean, clearly, I always wanted to have kids. It wasn't like, oh, I'm not going to, but I.

Brooke (06:38.11)

It was a blip in what I thought was gonna be my job, right? Like I was like, I don't actually think I need a nanny because I'm working from home a lot. So like, I'm sure, and the baby sleeps a lot. Like what the hell was I thinking? Excuse my language. And I was like, right? I'm like, and actually I was in Bergen County, I don't know where in New Jersey you live, but I was up in New Jersey and I was, oh, okay, so I was in Oro Del, my job and like whatever. So I was working remote until I started working in the city. But I was like, it was such a blip.

Jenny (06:49.276)

That's actually really funny.

Jenny (06:55.773)

That's what we used to live.

Brooke (07:06.374)

in my and so it like there was this process of like this identity of like what are you doing and like what's the mom thing that kind of like cracked open I think like and so then there's this whole thing of like work versus moming and that whole and it finally came to a head like where it was like I love my identity and having a job but like I don't think this is actually what I want and I can't put it off anymore of like

Jenny (07:18.473)

Oh, yeah.

Brooke (07:29.066)

you know, just keep doing the job and you'll get to the place. Cause I have all these needs that are like requiring so much of me. And I got to figure out the thing that's making me happy in the day to day, because it was not, it was like burning me out completely, you know?

Jenny (07:41.588)

interesting because that's what happened to me last summer. So last summer I got put on this project that I said I could not handle. I was like, I cannot do this. I don't have time. I don't have capacity. I got put on it anyway. It literally just, I started getting emails about it. Like, oh, you're leading this, right? And

Brooke (07:44.322)

Yeah.

Brooke (07:59.986)

the fault or what is it what are they called like you're good at something so you just get more it's like it's like your penalty for being a good employee yeah

Jenny (08:07.548)

cannot do that. And they were like, no, you are doing it, though. So I had to take this on. And it was three weeks, literally three weeks of me working from like 6am to like 1112 o'clock at night, just non stop. All I did was come out to feed them and bathe them. And then I had to go right back into work. And I got to the end of those three weeks. And it never bothered me before. Like I always dove in deep.

Brooke (08:18.114)

with kids, like at home, yeah.

Brooke (08:31.094)

Yeah, yeah. And almost felt good, because you're like, I need it, I'm gonna like figure, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah.

Jenny (08:35.572)

to get like excited about it and like really pumped up. And this instance, I walked away from it and my kids looked bigger at the end of the and I like, I can't even tell you I like a tear up talking about it. I came out of the house like, holy shit. I'm not doing this anymore. I was like, I this is where I'm drawing the line. So I left that agency. I joined the agency that I'm with right now. And I was like, this is a smaller shop. It's I can control this a little bit better. Yeah.

Brooke (08:47.518)

I know. Yes.

Brooke (08:58.583)

Yeah. be more work life friendly, hopefully. Yeah.

Jenny (09:04.316)

little it is more work life friendly and then I was like this is my last agency stop I'm not I'm not bouncing anyplace else this is my last stop in the line because it was very much like I always had these goals of like okay great now I'm making this salary next time I'm going to go for this salary and I've always been really great at that but now like okay but there's so much more there's like so much more

Brooke (09:24.802)

I know. Here's what I struggle with. Like I'm so interested because taking this program with Cassie, right? Who totally opened my eyes to a lot of things, but it was by happenstance. Right. And I'm like, how do I talk? Like exactly what you're saying is exactly how I felt and still part like is like I'm trying to break where she was like, just go after what you totally want. You know, like just like feel into it. Don't worry about the money, like manifest the money. It was like very, you know, and I

I like, and like, my eyes are open to this right now. But coming from finding, I'm like, I came from a, like, I liked working hard. It was my identity. It was like, I can do this. It was almost like waving the white flag, like if I were to leave without something else lined up or like without like a really, like in my mind, something successful that I could dig into. It was like a failure of what I've done before. Like it was all this stuff, right? And then in my mind too, like my background, I'm like,

Jenny (09:55.121)

I don't know.

Jenny (10:03.579)

with.

Brooke (10:20.834)

So I think about like, how do you help other women? Like how, what's the path for like women that were me, like me that wanted to leave kind of finally saw this mirror moment of like, and what did it for me? It was during the pandemic. And I had talked to my boss about leaving and it was like, we went through like, we were doing same thing with you, but it was a merger. And so it was like working like crazy. And I'm like, I don't, this isn't, my husband's in corporate, and so it was like, this isn't the life that I want. And some people I was working with were like loving it. And I'm like,

Jenny (10:45.376)

Uh.

Brooke (10:48.49)

It's easy when people you're around hate it and you kind of complain to each other. And so it's just like mutual, like us, it's just how it's gonna be, right? But it was when I hit a point where people were like, oh, I love this. And I'm like, I don't, what, you know? So then it was that near moment, but then my boss was like, well, what would it take? Do you want my job? And I was like, no, you don't have children. You're working like crazy. And I'm like, so then I was like, what am I working for exactly? Like you said too, but it was like,

Jenny (10:48.572)

Yeah.

Jenny (10:56.266)

Right, right.

Jenny (11:02.191)

I don't.

Brooke (11:17.686)

So, but for me to make that transition, I still had to have like the plan. Like I couldn't just, you know, and so, so like, like for you, right? I want like, I get the Cathy process, which is like a lot of what holds us back is, you know, are just stuff we've got to work through. It's like, we're too worried about the money and we're pushing it away actually. And there's like all these like limiting beliefs that I think there's like one aspect, but I do think there's an aspect of me.

Brooke (11:43.558)

meeting women who are in corporate jobs who are unhappy and kind of on this path, it's like not aligned. It's like what they thought they want to be like, there's a stepping stone to kind of really getting true to yourself, you know, and the first step is like, maybe it's like, take what you're doing now, but do it on your own terms with your own consulting, you know, right? And then like,

Brooke (12:59.916)

And I love that you have that, how has it felt since you've been doing it? Is this something like in the moment joy that you're like, see, then that's.

Jenny (13:07.385)

yeah and it's well because I have like I will literally go out of my way to like work on podcast stuff like this is like a relief for me and every time I get to record because even like earlier it was a little hectic over here and I was like I know that once I get on here and I'm talking with somebody it like everything kind of eases and it's I'm like oh this is so nice like yeah

Brooke (13:31.53)

It's like a connection, right? Like it's a, that's, that is my pool tour. And I love hearing that because I hope like, for me, I love like, I will spend, my husband will be like, how many like touch bases did you have? And are you getting paid for these? And I'm like, no, I just like, you know, it like fills my days, but I'm like, and so on the one hand, it's like, some of it is like.

coaching more stuff. So like, okay, go down that path. But some of it is like, I just want to connect with people. I'm like, and it's like these deep conversations of women that are going through similar things and like learning from each other and like, what is working and what are you reading and all that stuff. And I'm like, that's what like a podcast it's like, it's like the connection, right?

Jenny (14:10.124)

And I will say this, and part of the reason, actually the behind the scenes, like my cousin and I had talked about, we always joke like when we were talking to each other, like, oh, ha ha, this would be a funny podcast topic. Like we used to do it all the time. And then we got to like a point where I was like, you know, like I'm going through this really tough spot with like the kids or work or whatever. I was like, there has to be other women going through this, but then like everybody kind of puts on like the happy face and doesn't talk about it. And then everyone's posting on social media, like all the beautiful pictures, like that's cool.

Jenny (14:39.28)

But we're also putting each other into this pressure zone of like, we can't really be real about like all this crap. And like everyone struggles. Like I, I texted a friend of mine that resigned from my current agency where I'm at, she left because it was, it was too much. She was like, I can't, I'm actually going to hire her to work on content for the podcast because I'm like, let me help you. Let me do this. Like let's work together on this. But she, she left cause she was like, I just can't.

Brooke (14:46.872)

Yes.

Brooke (15:04.077)

So good. Yes, I love that.

Jenny (15:07.84)

I can't do this and I text her every week and I'm like, by the way, my kids had pancakes for dinner twice this week because I'm like

Brooke (15:14.858)

You know, what if that was like a five minute episode each week? Like I love like meaning because there is this unlock and you, you know, it like, you know, like social media, like everyone says, like, it's not real. And like, you know that, but there's also like, like LinkedIn, for instance, right. When I left my job finally, and I posted, and I was like, the first thing I posted. And this is what like, got me thinking like, man, I need to share. This is what the us rising that website came from, because it was like.

Jenny (15:28.545)

Right.

Brooke (15:43.522)

this is resonating a lot. And my point of my post was like, I'm leaving my corporate job, it's been 20 years. And I commit to posting the process because people always post the beginning and then the end. Like I got this new job, but they never talked through the shit that was like, you know, I was on a high, I was so excited I left, but now I'm like, oh my God, I'm looking at other people's posts and like wondering what I'm doing. And then you see them like do something good again. And like, when I can hear those stories, it's like, it makes, it doesn't deem.

Brooke (16:12.286)

motivated, whatever the word is. It doesn't take my motivation away. I'm like, Oh my God, everyone does that. And I saw this quote and it was like, if you can maintain the action that you started when your, what is it, the energy was high, that's what makes the progress. And I was like, I do that all the time. Like you're like, I'm leaving this job, I have this idea for all this stuff I want to do. And then you hit this and I'm like, I need other stories that are like, yeah, it like, that's the dip. And what did you do?

Jenny (16:38.096)

That's the dip. Did you read that book, by the way? The Seth Roe? I bought it and I read it. It's like you read it in a day. Like it's, yeah, it's super quick. Very informative, because I had literally, yeah, so you'll love this. I had hit a dip with a podcast and I was like, we've done like 12 episodes. Nobody's really listening. It's like, you know, whatever.

Jenny (17:03.504)

And I was getting, you know, I'm busy at work and the kids and everything. And I was like, you know, I was like, should I even keep doing this? I only talk to my cousin, like, I don't know, maybe we'll scale it back to just once a month. And then I got a message from a coach that, um, I actually interviewed and she messaged me on LinkedIn and was like, Hey, I've been following you. I really love what you're doing. I'd like to be a guest. And that was like the uptick that I needed to be like, Oh my God, someone's following. Well, the interesting part is that when I interviewed her.

Jenny (17:32.028)

afterwards, like we were chatting for like an hour after we interviewed her, and she was like, I told her, I was like, hey, listen, I was just to be transparent, like this is kind of what was going on, and she was like, are you, she was like, are you being serious? And I was like, yeah, she was like, you have to keep going, and I was like, oh, okay, and I was like, why? And she was like, Jenny, it was really random, all of a sudden, I had this urge to message you, and she was like, so whatever you're doing, you got to keep going, I was like, oh my god, I was like,

Brooke (17:58.166)

You got it. It's the right. Isn't that the craziest in such a sign that like, yes, like listen to those things. I used to like hush those and like, here's what I think I need to do. And I'm trying to quiet the bat busy brain and like hear those things like loud and clear is like, that's the sign.

Jenny (18:17.275)

That was like my biggest thing. Like I didn't get to do a lot of the live things in AEA, just because it was just, a lot of it was during the day. It was like, like we got.

Brooke (18:24.246)

and during the day and your work, yes. And then you're, I don't know, some people can feel like, oh my God, now I'm paid that I'm missing all that. Like it just like compound. Yep. Yes.

Jenny (18:31.46)

honestly yeah like I was getting annoyed at myself but then you know I did take away one of the biggest things that I did take away was like quieting myself down and stop trying and just listening to like that was a huge effort on my part because I am not like that or wasn't like that.

Brooke (18:42.178)

Yeah, yes. No, me either. Me either, me either. And I'm trying, and you know, here's the thing too, like I was, I struggle is probably the wrong word, but like I thought a lot about like the first year that I left, I was like, I know I wanna change some things about me, and if I really am gonna be like my true self and like successful in what I, in a happy way, I need to make some changes. I can't be people pleasing. I got, I don't have, I have to worry less about what other people think. But like the-

Brooke (19:13.166)

The hard thing about that in my mind is I can't measure progress. I was like, I don't know how to it's not a smart goal. You know, like, what's my metric of like that? I'm happier. What's my metric that I have more patience with my children? Like it was like, I don't I can't see the progress until to your point, something like that, like you hit a dip and what I would normally. And actually, I'm feeling it this week. So I have a retreat coming up in four weeks, like I said, and I'm like, I go in these waves of like.

Jenny (19:25.86)

Yeah, there's no chance of success.

Brooke (19:38.582)

like, I mean, clearly a dip, but the way I differentiated is like, I was on, I had this job forever that again was more good than bad because I did it for so long, but it was probably, it was misaligned at some point. Like I was going after the wrong thing. And so that was the wrong way to push myself, you know, like the hustle culture and all that stuff, like, you know, like hard charging, whatever, versus pushing yourself in a good way, but you hit up against your ego and your limiting beliefs. And I'm like, how do you know the difference?

Brooke (20:06.206)

Right? And so now I think it's that you hit a dip. Clearly that's not the time to change anything when you're like, you know, you're in a dip, but like then you can come back up and be like, like you can stop it. You can get in your comp state, you know, and be like, oh, I see, like, I think there's happiness underlying this thing that I'm doing. Like I can see that difference. And I just don't like head deep into it and like stay in it for as long. And I'm like, I think that's progress.

Jenny (20:28.78)

That was the other thing that I did like when I started forgetting like, Oh yeah, what am I doing? Kind of like even after the coach, the coach Nami had reached out to me. That was when I also went back to the group and was like, Oh, is this still active? And then that's where I started. I was like, Oh, this is, I'm going to message everybody. Like, what the hell?

Brooke (20:46.038)

Like, yes, like the people, because you mean, like again, it's like so crazy. Like obviously they're sayings for a reason because they mean something, but it's like you're the average of the five people you surround yourself with. And I'm like, it was new meeting being in a group like that because honestly I had never invested in myself. Like I had invested in certifications and education and like that type of stuff, but not like personal growth in that way. And like, cause I couldn't again see the, like measure the, like what am I getting out of it? But

Jenny (21:13.036)

You're, you know, it's interesting you keep saying that because I, um, I think it's because of the corporate mindset. Like I'm always like, what's the ROI? What's the metrics? Like where are we at? Like I was looking, I look at our metrics all the time because I can't myself, but like, yeah.

Brooke (21:19.05)

Yeah. Yes. 100% Yes. What's what's my KPI? What am I like doing this for? But but then exactly that like being in a group with all the women because

Like I get in that too, like why am I doing this? And I can go towards some groups of women who are wonderful people that I surround myself with, but are in a different mentality and are kind of like, what are, I'm kind of crazy, what are you doing? And it can just totally shut me down. And then it can be around groups like this and like talking to you that are like, I'm just doing it and it doesn't mean any, and I love it and I'm gonna keep going and go you and let me support you. And I'm like, oh my God, this is like.

Brooke (22:06.01)

Utopia, like this world exists of supportive women that are just pushing you along the way.

Jenny (22:11.356)

that's wild to me is like, because you encounter like in corporate life, like the traditional, like interaction with women is like, oh, you're my competition, I need to drag you down. I've always been really cautious about that. Because when I was in my 20s, I thought that was like, how you're supposed to do it. And it took it honestly didn't change until after I had kids. And something happened there. And, and I came out of it. And afterwards, I was definitely

Jenny (22:39.944)

much softer than I was before I had kids. And it totally shifted like how I looked at people in general. And it changed my whole management style. Everything, like everything that I do now with like I have a team that I manage and I like this one, one of my little ones. It changed my whole management style because I, you know, before I would just be like, well, you need to do this and I don't care what time you get it done, but you need to do it today.

Jenny (23:08.984)

And now I'm like, well, what can I take off your plate? Why don't we divide and conquer? I'll take stuff on for myself. Why don't you get out of here early? Like, I can get this done in the morning. Don't worry about it. You know, like just, and supporting each other. We don't have to drag each other down. That's just not, it doesn't have to be like that.

Brooke (23:24.934)

I mean, we could do and maybe please let's do this a whole podcast on this because it just hits at the heart of like, so I went to this women in business conference. It was like a year ago and they had this woman was speaking and she was talking about basically how women and it was more, it was corporate focused or traditional work for, you know, whatever you call it corporate. And it was like how to get to the next like ladder and she's talking about burnout and women take on labor, you know, and kind of just how you, how you come across in your brand.

Brooke (23:53.59)

But at the heart of it was like key metrics, again, back to the metrics thing though, about how, I mean, you can see upper echelons at CEO, like we're down to five in the Fortune 500 or whatever it is. So at some point, women have to take on more male dominated characteristics because that's the culture of the business, right? That you have to do like, and,

And within the confines of the culture, right, every year you get your review and it's like, well, to get to the manager, to VP, to SVP, we need you to be a little bit more aggressive and talk more in meetings. And so it's inherent in it, right? And so then some of the things like you talk about, which are so positive and good and need to be in companies, and I raised my hand and I was like, well, if we're saying there's more male, like traditional male characteristics are at the top and we're saying women need to kind of show theirs,

But to get to the top, like, what do you do? You kind of need to fake it till you make it and then switch it. And that, and so in my mind, that was when it like solidified for me. I was like, I want to help women, the path, I feel like, stop it now, I'm really getting really into it. The path for women in the ultimate of like, starting your business and being your best self, which I think then women can dominate any, like wherever they want to, because there's so much untapped potential because they're just opting out or,

Brooke (25:13.342)

not rising as they should is like, let's help you remove your identity that it has to be the job and the title that you're in. Figure out what makes you whole and then leave and do your own thing. Instead of trying to like break the glass ceiling, like create your own because like that is when you have like your voice is hurt. And then to your point, how you're managing is like, you can create the culture around that. You don't have to try and like be someone else and then all of a sudden pivot when you get to a certain level, which is like impossible.

Brooke (25:42.838)

Right? Because for 25 years, you've had to enhance these characteristics. And so I'm with you and I'm like, okay, what is the way we change it? And I'm like, I don't have the answer yet for in the confines of like, you know, like. Sorry.

Jenny (25:56.601)

you know, in the corporate structure, it's totally different. Like it's the whole thing. Yeah, no, you're I could talk about I could talk about that for hours, like

Brooke (26:04.542)

like, clearly, and so when you talk about like, you know, it's like, when you find your passion and tie it to a higher purpose, I'm like, this is the higher purpose, I want to talk about it for like, it just gets me so riled up.

Jenny (26:14.809)

I get like I could talk about that for you and I actually jotted it down. We could certainly do an episode I would have another episode with you because it's true like and honestly like yeah, I want to leave but there's tons of women that don't want to leave and That's cool. Stay stick with it Like if it's if it speaks to you and this is something that you find joy in like go for it But you don't have to lose yourself in there. The one thing I will say about that though that I had experienced

Jenny (26:40.276)

because you said like reviews like reviews and like you know when you get feedback and stuff I have only been promoted one time internally I have and that was yep I that was early on in my career and that was when I was working um 70 hours a week and that was the only time I ever got promoted and after that if you look at my LinkedIn you can actually see that every three and a half years I left

Jenny (27:06.916)

because I would get to the two and a half year mark ish and be like, look, I'm, I'm nailing this role. Let's talk like, and I would bang on that door and there was one company I was like, I w you know, I work in the pharma. So I was, Novartis was my client and they're huge. And I was bringing in a little over a million dollars by myself a year in revenue for closed projects. Like I was the highest earning client services person.

Brooke (27:07.15)

Crazy.

Brooke (27:21.09)

Yeah.

Brooke (27:29.406)

Yeah.

Jenny (27:34.092)

And I put together this whole like a spreadsheet and a PowerPoint and presented all my data and my manager, my mail manager at the time. He said, you're going to, you're going to buy. Yeah, no, that's yeah, no, this looks good. Like this is really impressive, but you didn't reply to this email within 24 hours. So you really got to tighten that up before we, I was like,

Brooke (27:40.758)

Yeah.

Brooke (27:46.294)

Oh, I can't. I'm like, mm, just like, give me some tea. I'm in here for it.

Jenny (28:03.948)

Are you fucking kidding me? I was like, what?

Brooke (28:08.586)

noted okay to that email good okay so I'm out I'm out it's so crazy it's maddening it's maddening like and

Jenny (28:10.928)

I was like, noted, update my resume.

Jenny (28:18.673)

I can't.

Jenny (28:22.204)

Um, it was, it was interesting because right after that, um, I, I still know people who are written of artists and I still am friends with these people. And I was being brought into these senior team meetings over there. And I think it was making my boss and the CEO nervous. And they started cutting me out of the loop of like, when they were presenting and pitching and all this stuff to the senior C-suite people, I was like, I know those guys. Why would you not include me? Like, you didn't even tell me this was happening. I heard it through the grapevine. Like.

Brooke (28:53.738)

And how do you, how did you take that? Did you end up like, did you internalize any of that? Or was there like anger? Like what did you, like, were you like, it's time for me to go, but I know it's nothing to do with me?

Jenny (29:06.48)

Oh, yeah, no, I was like, they don't see my value and I'm going to leave because I know that I'm more valuable than what they're, what they're giving me.

Brooke (29:13.282)

See, I did the same thing. I had a bunch of anger. Like, this is why I sound like this, like the angry woman or whatever, but like it would get to a point where I'd switch and I'd switch. But like from a financial standpoint, I guess you could argue that that's where you get some jumps, but you have to rebuild your brand every single time you do that. And that I think slows down then the progression too, because like I see my husband who is, he is, it's really good because I met him through our first job,

Brooke (29:43.294)

same background and I don't he's earned everything but he like but same background I got my CPA I went to Northwestern at KELA like an MBA from Kellogg he went to DePaul which in standings is different same year he's like by the time I left he was making like double my salary and it was because he like stood his ground he pushed back when he needed to it was respected when he did that he and he did it in a better way than I like so there's like certainly it's not just a man but I'm like

It's such a like, I'm like, look at this. And I had to take three maternity, not I did, take three maternity leave. So you come back in. So like, there's little things in my mind that through the path, I was like, that was the right move, that was the right move. But now looking back, I'm like, how would you change this in the macro level? I'm like, it's that, it's that. And then you end up leaving instead of like changing it, you know, and like, it just.

Jenny (30:34.416)

will say this, I will say this. Every time I left, it was obviously for a higher role. And, and I used instead of looking at having to rebrand myself as a negative, I actually took it to apply all the things that I had learned, and like level up myself. So like, yeah, so when I when I when I met actually when I started bringing in this management style that I was like, this is the style I want to be integrating here.

Jenny (31:04.256)

And that's actually what I did at my last couple of agencies. I was like, no, I'm like, I'm not going to be like these other a-holes that I've been like working with. Like I'm going to do it this way. And it has been successful. Like three agencies later, like people were like my last agency that I left. They were like literal crying people the last day being like, I can't believe you're leaving us, like this is Dev, we're going to call you in six months. See if you want to come back. I was like, oh, all right.

Brooke (31:34.698)

I'm good. Thank you. Thank you. So like, so can I ask you now in your new so okay new job a year a year and like work life balance supposedly supposed to be better. How is it since you've been there? Like, have you noticed a better a change?

Jenny (31:38.64)

It's not coming back. It's not happening.

Jenny (31:46.436)

Yeah.

Jenny (31:55.848)

Yes, but because I'm forcing myself to be different. So it's

Brooke (31:59.686)

Yeah. So what does that look like? Boundaries with work? Or how is that? How is that?

Jenny (32:04.404)

Yeah, yeah, because I work from home. I've been working from home since 2017. So like pre pandemic, I was always been working from home. And my big problem is I will always log in at night. And I will always log in at 5am and like, and have that buffer of like, oh, I was in there just cleaning out my inbox and just getting ready for the day. It's like, but you really shouldn't have to do that. So and most recently, like my team and I were talking and they told me they're like, Yeah, but when you do that,

you're kind of putting pressure on everybody that this is what you're and I was like, no, but I don't, I truly don't expect anyone to do that. And they were like, yeah, but you're still setting that out there that like you're doing this. And so then it's like, well, I've gotten 30 emails from Jenny since, you know, and it's only 905. Like, so right, exactly. And I'm like, no, you know, so I do and I do try really hard to like, unless I

Brooke (32:34.838)

Yeah.

Brooke (32:50.03)

between nine and 10, yeah. Obviously that's her expectation, I need to respond at nine p.m.

Jenny (33:01.168)

really have to do something. I'm like no it has to stay within nine to five. So the only reason why things are different is because of me because I could like work wise there's always work to do and that's the other flip of it too that I've like been saying to myself because my kids will be like oh are you done with work? I'm like for now I am there's always work to do for mommy but mommy's gonna stop for now because mommy needs to just stop like

Brooke (33:21.194)

Yeah, yeah, so good. Then how is that, how's your like self, so work boundaries are good. Be of three children at home. Like, are you able, this is a loaded question, I know. Are you able to carve out time for yourself? So this is a key, I've had this conversation, this is like top of mind with like 10 women I've talked to this week, which is interested to hear your perspective.

Jenny (33:49.016)

Um, I am really trying hard to do this. So I have good days and bad days. Um, like today I made it a point to get up and go downstairs. We have a gym in our garage and I was like, I'm going to get up. I have to, I got to work out. Like I got to start prioritizing myself. And there was something like my husband and I talk about that all the time. Cause he knows that I, my goal, like I'm turning 40 this year, right?

Jenny (34:13.344)

And this is like, I'm excited. Like, I think I might be the only woman, woman alive who's excited about turning 40. Were you? Yeah.

Brooke (34:18.826)

Okay, like, can I, I'm 42. When I turned 40, which was pandemic 2020. And same, same. I was like, this is the year, this is the decade, this is my decade, because 20s were not and I got married and then the 30s were having children and like the career I'm like, 40s I am re discovering myself, I'm gonna figure out what I like and I'm gonna be my best self, I'm gonna be the happiest, most fulfilled, like just fun, fun. So like, I'm with you.

Jenny (34:46.188)

if you like wrote up a book of your life, I'd be like, Oh, look, me. Like, so I'm like, I'm so pumped up for 40 and I have no idea why, but all of a sudden this year I was like, well, what's really funny is last year when I was turning 39, I thought I was turning 38. And so it was like the midnight before my birthday and my husband, I was like, yeah, turning 38, whatever. And he was like,

Brooke (35:09.815)

funny. My husband I have the same birthday but he's a year older than me. So I'm always like, what am I what am I turning this year, whatever. But it's funny, I left my corporate job at 40. It was that year too, because I was like this, like I'm not putting off what I want. I don't know what it is. I'm not completely unhappy, but I'm not okay with my life just being okay. Like, every day like, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. No, figure it out.

Jenny (35:31.484)

that honestly that's the thing it's like you know I've and I said this to I forget who I was talking about this I'm like I have successfully hit every single milestone like every goal that I had ever really wanted I've successfully hit like you know my husband teases me all the time because he was like I was one of your goals I'm like definitely were and I'm like I'm like you know like I made I made everything happen that I wanted to happen I'm like and I'm very proud of that and I'm I am incredibly like

I'm grateful for all of it, but I'm like, but there feels it feels like there could be something else. Like it doesn't feel like this is it. And that's what like going into 40 like I do a lot of the Cathy meditations. And one of them is like, oh, you know, if you don't change anything and you just keep going down this path, like what is the next five years look like? And I'm like, I could literally predict it. I know exactly what I know, but I don't want that. I want this over here because this is like I literally get excited just thinking about it.

Brooke (36:28.682)

Right? And that's where like, when you hit the dip, right, and you're like, and it's that fear that like, why am I doing this? But like, if you in when that dissipates, like the fog, right, like underlying that is like excitement versus in your current are like people in their job where it's like, there's, there was not this like excitement. It wasn't like, Oh, I can't wait to have this meeting today. You know, it was like, it was it fulfilled what it did, though, was it fulfilled my need.

to be busy, certainly, and to feel important because I had a ton of me, you know, and to be able to really succinctly tell someone else who was like, so what do you do? I could throw out my title and the company and feel, you know, and end problem, like I do like solving problems. So it checked those, but like, I was like, so three of those I lost when I left there, which I had to like, what is my identity? Like all that stuff, but like to your point, like it wasn't like, oh my, you know, like this.

Jenny (37:10.033)

in a ballot.

Brooke (37:26.05)

So yeah, I'm like rediscovering that. I'm like, oh, I do have like, feel, I can have like fun in a day. Like it was crazy.

Jenny (37:32.472)

you could also like really love like you know and be creative with what you're like the creative part was like really like so when I was when I was a kid and when I was a teenager all the way up through my

think junior-ish year of high school, like, I used to do creative writing all the time. And I took all these creative writing classes, and I used to submit things for publication. Like, I loved it. And then I had like a, my parents went through a divorce and my whole mindset shifted. And I was like, I need to make money as soon as possible. Like, how am I going to achieve that? And I totally dropped that whole like, Jenny, that loved to be creative. And that's why with the podcast, I'm like, what else can I do here? And like,

Brooke (38:12.398)

Yeah.

Jenny (38:13.26)

I'm taking, actually, I have a template for like a newsletter. And so I'm actually taking each of the episodes and I'm migrating it into like a little newsletter that I can, so I'm like, that's something I'm trying to fit in somewhere that's in the

Brooke (38:23.179)

I love it.

Do you know? I know, and Wendy, but this could very well be your form of self-care right now because it is, fills you, it makes you happy. In my mind, self-care is, and we can go down the street, but it's like knowing what you need and making sure you get those needs met. So for you, it's like, okay, from a health perspective, okay, make sure you work out or take walks or whatever, but this is it right now. This is your future potential. Like you're dreaming.

Jenny (38:53.184)

You know what? I've never thought of it like that before because I, you know, like my mom and a lot of people get down on me and they're like, Oh, Jenny, you really have to take time for yourself. I'm like, what are you doing? I get like frustrated because I'm like, I'm not the person that's going to sit in a bubble bath. Like that is not, I think it's gross, number one. And also it just grosses me out. Just feels really unsanitary. I don't know why anyone likes it. But like me I'm like this is like exciting like this is really fun like if I could take 30 minutes every day and like do something with the podcast and do you know

Brooke (39:23.702)

Yeah, like here's, so I don't know if you've read Do the Work by Dr. Nicole LaPera. Have you read her or her, okay, holistic psychologist, but she has this, so you know your triangle of needs, right? Like your basic needs, like human needs, and it's like oxygen and nutrition and whatever. Well, she redefines it in like your emotional needs. And so, and it's like women, spot on. And I like wanna just shout it from the rooftops. But basically like.

Brooke (39:49.794)

To be your best self means you are in flow, you are creative, like you said, you're just like, you're having fun, like fun. That's at the top of the pyramid. You can't get up there, which is like your ultimate form of self care until you have like the baseline is nutrition and oxygen and whatever. And then the next one is community and safety. And like, you know, which is like for women too, it's like, you need to be safe in your like.

Brooke (40:12.13)

from a work perspective and you know, like community with other like-minded women like AEA, so you feel like you can be seen and heard or whatever, and then you reach that. So like self-care, certainly you need to be able to move, but also it's like, it's just like a workout I like to equate it to, right? So like some people need to build muscle and some people need to lose weight, and it's like some people need more fat than less fat or whatever. Same with self-care, it's like you need, for your most energized self, is like the ability to like express your creativity freely.

Brooke (40:41.042)

And without someone, a client telling you how, or your bot, like, this, that's it, right?

Jenny (40:44.152)

No. Honestly, yes, because and that's where like, and I discovered that through a because we did like a bunch of work and everything where it was like, well, think back to like, little you like what did little you really want to do? Little Jenny wanted to be like a social worker, and she didn't care about money. She just wanted to help people. And she wanted to help like bring things to people and help like inspire people and like lift people up like that's a little Jenny used to aspire to do

Brooke (41:13.582)

little Jenny was such a sweet little Jenny. Oh, God, so like such a big heart.

Jenny (41:15.761)

It was like she said all these things that she wanted to do. And then Little Jenny became Big Jenny and Big Jenny was like, I need to make money. Like we're gotta like bring that the bacon home and everything. And I just totally suffocated Little Jenny. And now I'm like, oh no, don't be scared. You can come back. Like.

Brooke (41:27.042)

smack little Jenny down and said I'm taking over.

Brooke (41:33.79)

I know, and you can have both, right? Like you can so, like a podcast, like you could help so many people through this or the newsletter, wherever this ends up going, but also love it and make money from it. And like the possibilities are, and I love that. I love that too, because I'm like, it's crazy. It's crazy when, like for me, I was a little different in that like I laughed off creativity forever. I was like, okay, I'm financing or I'm math and like account, you know, black and white. And I'm like, I don't have like draw what he's, but.

Brooke (42:02.634)

But what I realized was that like that was me shutting and like I'd hear people be like, everyone has creativity. And then I'm like, you're, that's coming from someone who has it. I don't have it. But I realized it's cause like it was me caring too much what others thought and like creativity comes in any form. Right. And a little bit is like the ability, like again, if you can get those basic needs and not care what others think and have the right community and the support and people supporting you and it's like you can creativity is like

Brooke (42:28.334)

trying out different things and see like it doesn't mean drawing necessarily again. There's so many forms, right? But it's like, where can you take a thought that no one has, whether it's like a new podcast idea or a painting or a story or a way to start a business and entrepreneur and like bring it to life. Like there's so many. And that in my mind was like, but you can't get those amazing ideas until you like

Brooke (42:52.194)

have all of these other needs, right? But like, that's the ultimate form is to get up to there and be creative in whatever way is for you. And I was like, okay, I don't know how to draw, but I think I can be creative in a different way.

Jenny (42:57.764)

Right.

Jenny (43:01.744)

Yeah, it's funny because you're right, like people when people hear like, oh, you'd be creative. It's like, why don't paint? I don't sculpt like that's not, you know, and I'll do stuff and like, to be fair, I'm also like, I don't have time for that. Like, I don't want to do that.

Brooke (43:06.57)

Yeah.

Brooke (43:12.746)

A hunt, yes. Like, you know what, I say this too, like in like the trailer to the podcast that I haven't launched yet, but it was like, I've left, like people had asked me my hobby and I laughed it off. And it was almost like a badge of honor. And I'm like, hobby, I have three children and a job and my husband's traveling, like what? And I'm like, dummy, that's like, that's not funny that you don't have a hobby. Like that's not funny that you don't know what you like. Like that is a sign that you are not getting, you're not spending the time on yourself like you do others.

Jenny (43:42.648)

That was, you know, that was always the stopping point for me too, when people be like, you know, when you start a new job, they're like, Oh, what do you do? This is Genevieve. You're Kathalaya? Oh my God, this is Kathalaya.

Brooke (43:42.793)

And like, it's crazy.

Brooke (43:51.051)

Genevieve!

Jenny (43:57.016)

Yeah, that's what happens. This is what happens. Um, yeah, it's, it's wild. It really is like, and you're right. Cause I would always get those answers like, well, what do you do outside of work? And I'm like, I take care of my kids. Like, that's great. Yeah. I'm like,

Brooke (44:13.57)

Yeah, like what if like, you must not be as busy as me or as important like you don't understand you don't understand I'm really busy and I'm like

Jenny (44:21.752)

Well, and that I think, well, you, you kind of just said it like you touched on it. It's like, well, you're not as important as me. Like that was like a big thing for me. I was like, oh, I'm so important. I have my job. I'm needed. They need me to be there. No one does what I do. I have to lead this. And now I'm like, I don't have to lead this. I'll tell you what to do. You can figure it out. Like you're smart people. Like let me delegate this out.

Brooke (44:41.182)

It is crazy because at the heart of it, again, now if you like, you know, the AEA stuff and you uncover all that, I was like, I was actually so insecure. Like it was my insecurity that then, right, because people would hit on it and they'd be like, you don't have time, and they'd be like, I don't have time, so I'm so busy, you don't understand. Right, but then that was like me, like being like, having to prove myself continuously. Instead of just, I am, I am, like, you know, it's like, it's so crazy. And I'll tell you another thing about like, two,

well, I don't know, I'm just gonna tell you one story and then I'll tell you another one if I want, but about moms and self-care is like, it's so crazy because you have, like with three kids too, right? I run myself, like it's the mental load too, right? That I don't give myself any credit for. So my husband, he'll come home from work and be like, why are you so stressed? He's very supportive and loving and I'd say, but sometimes, what's happening? And I'm like...

Brooke (45:34.41)

It's back to school. There's four forms that we need, the doctor's office before we, and then I got it, they need to have their dentist appointments before they start, and then the forms to be in after school activities. So many forms, I don't know, and that's just one thing of like.

Jenny (45:44.484)

holding classes. I was doing that for like 20 minutes before I hopped on with you and then it's three different classrooms and they all have to be logged into this app and I have to figure out how to toggle between, I have to register for each classroom separately and then each of the classrooms have their own little offshoot things and I was trying to figure it all out like it's a lot, it is incredibly stressful like

Brooke (46:09.094)

It is so much, and tell me if this resonates with you, besides the task actions of it, which you could write down, but just even remembering to do the tasks is a mental load. I am the, therapist isn't the right word, but there's five people and a dynamic between all of them. So how many connections is that? I don't know, between five people. There's like 25 different brother and sister fight, but then the brothers and brothers and whatever.

Brooke (46:37.202)

And I am the, in tap with like everyone's mood. I'm like, oh, he needs to wake up earlier because if he doesn't get that breakfast and the other one wakes up first and has that bowl of cereal, he's gonna be pissed and it's gonna throw off them at school. It's like that too, that is like, it is so much, right? And so they all have afterschool activities. And I actually, and like you're running like crazy, crazy doing that. We actually had a Monday that like one of them stopped and tell me if you need to go too, we can finish this.

Jenny (46:51.396)

mental load. Yeah.

Jenny (47:03.905)

I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Just one second, okay? One second. Well, you know what? I actually- well, hold on, let me ask you something because-

Brooke (47:07.318)

Do you want to go Jenny? Do you need to? Yes.

Jenny (47:12.564)

I enjoyed talking with you so much, I did not want to stop. And I actually, so something that I learned through one of Cathy's podcast recordings just recently was, she was saying like she does a lot of like behind the scenes recordings, and I think I actually might use this because I recorded this entire discussion, but I want to have a focused one where I can have you like promoting your businesses. Are you available on Friday afternoon by any chance?

Brooke (47:17.334)

Yes.

Brooke (47:24.331)

Yes.

Okay.

Brooke (47:30.894)

Okay, yeah.

Brooke (47:35.83)

Yeah, yeah, what time?

Jenny (47:38.732)

like anytime between 1 30 and 4 or 130 and 330 something like that

Brooke (47:41.196)

Are you sh-

Yeah, this actually Friday is good because the kids are in. Yes, like two 30, three 30 till four, the kids get off and then they'll come. Well, I mean, it is what it is. They'll come dashing into the room, but that's fine.

Jenny (48:01.636)

I'm gonna send you a hold for 2.30 because then we can record the whole episode then. I happen to have the afternoon off on Friday. So that's why I'm like, yeah, okay, cool. What were you just gonna say? Did you lose your thought? Cause I wanted to hear it.

Brooke (48:04.671)

Okay.

Brooke (48:10.526)

Oh, okay. If you want, that's great. No, I was just going to say, so the two things that just like, were so eye opening to me this week. So one is I had a Monday open up with the kids, like an afternoon activity, like each of them were in, I'm like, we had one too many children for like two parents. I don't like we had whatever. Love my daughter dearly clearly, but like one too many children. So like a Monday opened up and my first thought, my first thought was like, Oh,

Jenny (48:27.932)

Yeah.

Brooke (48:37.958)

now I can sign one of them up for, you know, the piano lessons that they've been wanting. But like, it was like, it was, there was not even like, there was this list of 10 things that I could fill up that time with. There was not even a snippet of like, what would I want to do with a Monday afternoon, like evening from like, six to nine, like there wasn't even anywhere. Like, if you asked me, I'd be like, I don't know, like, I'll just like, so that was like, kind of a mirror moment for me one, like, and then the second thing I'll say too. So I just think this resonates with

Jenny (48:57.438)

giving us a lot of.

Brooke (49:07.81)

just every mom right now too. So I was talking to my sister-in-law earlier and she is going, she's traveling. So we're again, talking about all the afterschool activities that we want our kids to be in and it grows them in so many wonderful ways and all that stuff. But she was going out of town for work. So she's traveling two weeks in a row. And I'm like, oh, my brother, like, is he gonna be able to cover all that? So, you know, like you guys have it figured out or help. She's like, yeah, or they just won't go, it's fine.

Jenny (49:24.699)

Mm-hmm.

Jenny (49:32.677)

Yeah.

Brooke (49:32.702)

And I was like, love that, you're right. Totally fine, they'll miss a soccer practice or a dance, like it's totally fine. I was like, but would you ever do that for yourself? Like would you, and not in an accusatory way, but if you think about it, it's like, I would like, like you're doing all this crazy stuff. And of course you're not gonna make your kid, like prioritize yourself all the time over that, but like after three weeks of like zero time for whatever it is that you feel like you need, like.

Jenny (49:36.696)

Yeah, it's not a big deal. Yeah.

Jenny (49:42.021)

Right.

Brooke (49:59.382)

do that when you're home sometimes. And it was like same for her. She was like, no, I would never even think about like, if I'm home, I'm gonna do it. It's just when I'm away, it's not a problem for them to miss. I'm like, well, it's not a problem for them to miss one day. Like if you...

Jenny (50:10.023)

I started doing this actually this that I resonate deeply with that.

Brooke (50:14.97)

It's like it's all these weird things and I'm like, oh my god, I'm telling myself this too. Like what? What? I do it to myself.

Jenny (50:21.529)

I talked about on one of the episodes, the glass ball, rubber ball method, because I am like, do you have you, are you familiar with it? Because I consistently am like, I do all the things, I'm going to do it all, I'm amazing, I can cover everything. And then I snap consistently, it happens all the time. And so what I started trying to do for myself, I'm not great at it, but I'm getting better at this method.

Brooke (50:28.266)

No, tell me, tell me about it.

Brooke (50:43.306)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenny (50:45.64)

basically like every single task is either glass and it cannot be dropped today or it's rubber and it can bounce to tomorrow so you basically are like okay well for example right now there's dishes in my sink I'm like that can bounce to tomorrow morning I'm cool with that I'm gonna put the kids to bed and like relax with my husband like I'm cool with that bouncing you know and then there's other times where I'm like no everything has to be clean like this is gross like let me get everything done laundry same thing that bounces all the time I never try

Brooke (50:54.184)

Oh.

Brooke (51:05.406)

Yes.

Jenny (51:14.309)

I'm like, I'll buy you your clothes.

Brooke (51:14.564)

until the kids are like...

Brooke (51:19.446)

Amazon can have new underwear tomorrow. That is what's happening.

Jenny (51:21.056)

oh no worries everybody, you need me socks on talk show covered. so it's like something that but even like you know it's applicable across everything it's applicable to work like your kids everything is like okay this has to happen today like today i have to read to you i want to read to you tonight it's important to me and i want to have that bonding time with you or i want to do puzzles with your kids like

Brooke (51:41.23)

I love that.

Jenny (51:43.508)

doing that. But then it's like, well, there's some days where I'm like, I can't do that, I have to do something else. And they understand they're getting the hang of it too, because I'll tell them like, oh, today, mommy has to do this. But tomorrow, we can definitely do something else. And that gives you almost that like, pass to be like, I couldn't get it done today. But I got all these really hot priorities on today. So that's good. And I don't feel like I've totally failed because I, I used to feel like a failure all the time. And I'm like, I'm totally not a failure.

Brooke (51:47.372)

know.

Brooke (52:01.079)

Yeah.

100%.

Brooke (52:08.355)

No, because you said it earlier too, right? Like work doesn't ever end. And it comes down to like, I think pausing. It's not every day, cause like, right? Work life balance. It's like, some days it's all work, some days it's all life, whatever. But it's like every, I don't know, quarter or something is like, what really is important? I mean, clearly family is important to you, but like, what is it? It's like, I want to be there for them in their like-

to help them with, I don't know, but just like what's important. And then to your point, like, okay, so this week, based on those values or whatever it is, like what needs to happen? And sometimes like you're not always gonna make them, but it's like the clarity of what's important and like coming back to that and like knowing that in the moment too, because there's gonna be a thousand asks.

Jenny (52:32.605)

What?

Jenny (52:43.524)

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Like, I, like, I know, like, you know, I just recently started, like, prioritizing my own health. I, do you know, after the twins were born, I did not go to the doctor for three years.

Brooke (52:53.08)

Yeah.

Brooke (52:59.806)

It is insane. Insane. Yeah. No, no, which is arguably when women need the most care, like it's all postpart that your pregnancy is not actually done until like two years like your body is it's crazy to me. So like, there is 17 podcasts I want to do about that. It is insane. Yes.

Jenny (53:02.237)

When I was pregnant, I took the best care of myself. But then after I had my kids, I didn't the most terrible.

Brooke (53:49.022)

It is like and not to I mean all women but Jenny you turning 42. I'm like there is Like it's like a post baby like and like pre menopause like there is like this gap for women who are like am I still like I just had a baby but I had it later like 38 and my pre menopause my post like am I still like a baby thing? Like what is happening with my we're like

Brooke (54:12.362)

And I'm still like, I'm not trying to be old. Like I wanna be healthy, but like there is like a gap of like, and women just, you're like, you are completely drained because you're handling like from toddler to even like, like teeming, you know, you're like hands on, but that is, I'm like, oh, there needs to be like, what is the hell? Is it cold plunges? Is it like fasting that I need to do more? Like what is it in my stage of life that I need to do?