From Princeton to Mount Shasta: Peace, Presence, and Purpose Through Living Inside Out

In this episode of Against the Norm, Norman Calvo sits down with fellow Princeton grad Andrew “Andy” Oser—a man who’s lived an unmistakably “against the norm” life.

After founding a nonprofit that served over 50,000 inner-city youth in Washington, D.C. through tennis and wellness programs, Andy has spent the last two decades guiding spiritual retreats at sacred sites on Mount Shasta.

This conversation is for anyone—especially men in their 60s and 70s—who has spent a lifetime playing the “outer game” and is now asking: What’s next?

We talk about:

• Outside-in vs. inside-out living
• Why striving can become a trap (even when you “win”)
• How tennis taught Andy a radically different way to live (The Inner Game of Tennis)
• Using breaks (like in tennis) to reset your nervous system during the day
• Why nature helps us access the “real self” more quickly
• Authenticity, purpose, and the surprising power of gratitude

Links & resources:

 Resources mentioned

• The Inner Game of Tennis — Timothy Gallwey
• The Inner Game of Work — Timothy Gallwey
• Thich Nhat Hanh (using your phone as a “mindfulness bell”)
• Meister Eckhart (attributed): “Gratitude is the only prayer you need.”

Links:

https://mountshastaretreat.net/about/

https://www.facebook.com/andrew.oser1

Contact us:   againstthenorm.net

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to another episode of Against the Norm, where we talk to fascinating people doing extraordinary things in life. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by a fellow Princeton grad, Andrew Oser. Andrew has lived what I call a truly against the norm life, first founding a nonprofit that helped over 50,000 inner city youth in Washington, D.C. through tennis and wellness programs, and for the past two decades has been guiding spiritual retreats at sacred sites on Mount Shasta. He lives and teaches a philosophy of inside out living, a way of being that's grounded in peace, presence, and authenticity. And I think that's something many of us, especially men in our 60s and 70s, are hungry for. So let's dive in and explore how we can bring a little more magic and meaning into our lives right now. So let's get started, Andy. I I've got to tell you, for my audience and for everybody out there, you are the epitome of what we call against the norm. I mean, your story, your what you're doing on Mount Shasta in California, everything about what you're doing with your life is exactly what I want everybody to learn about and hear about, especially the idea of living inside out. Can you kind of go through that a little bit and discuss inside out versus outside in and kind of discuss that philosophy of life?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Sure. Well, I would say, first of all, Norm, from my experience, I think we all want basically the same things. We want happiness, peace, love, you know, those kind of things. And those are experienced inside, internally. But our overall cultural norm, our society is based on a strategy of outside in, meaning that the way to get the peace, the happiness, is by getting enough outer stuff or getting the right outer stuff, or having enough control over the outer stuff. So most people spend their lives chasing after happiness through outer experiences or acquisitions or relationships. And ultimately, I think I think that's at best a roller coaster. And probably ultimately a losing strategy. Since even when you have the outer stuff, you think you need to be happy, you'll be afraid of losing it.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

And sounds like something I've been doing for most of my life.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

That and but fortunately, there's another strategy available, which is inside out. I don't have to get my bank account to a certain level. I don't have to achieve a certain level of success as judged by the world to be at peace. The peace is already inside of me, and I just need to find it in myself.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah. Now, how did you develop such an idea or philosophy? I mean, it's probably current in Buddhist circles or Zen or the Eastern philosophy or things like that. But coming from being a Princeton graduate, of course, and coming out of such an environment, how did you develop this way of life? And from what I understand, it was you started very, very early on in having this attitude.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, it really started with a book I read the summer after our junior year, which is called The Inner Game of Tennis.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Ah, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

And up until then, I'd been totally outside in strategy. I suffered a personal tragedy of my father getting killed in a car crash when I was five. And so, of course, I had all this pain. And you know, back then no one did therapy or anything. You just got on with your life. And so my strategy to get away from the pain was achievement. And I pushed myself hard enough to get into Princeton and do well at Princeton. But there was a cost. There's pushing and sports. I was pretty good at sports, and tennis was my main sport, but pushing, pushing, pushing, fear of losing, you know, fear of getting a B. I was always just one B or one lost tennis match away from having to feel all those bad feelings. Right. And so by junior year, I started thinking, man, there's gotta be another way to do life than this. Right. Because I felt like I was losing my zest for life because of all the pushing. And then a friend of mine introduced me to the inner game of tennis, which was actually a big bestseller, just came out the year before that. And it was all about the inside out approach. And the way that works in tennis, if you're playing outside in, you go on the court and all you're thinking is about I gotta win. I feel awful, it's awful to lose this guy. Right. But if you play inside out, you say, I'm just gonna be present with the ball. I'm just gonna really enjoy hitting the ball, enjoy every moment. And almost inevitably, you'll play better. You don't feel so so much pressure, and strokes will be more natural and more flowing. So I really discovered the inside out approach through tennis. And it was so radical for me and so powerful in my life that I decided rather than gone to law school, which I've been planning since I was about nine, you know, I'm Jewish, which I guess you are. You're a smart Jewish kid. You're supposed to be a lawyer or a doctor. I knew I didn't want to have part of being a doctor, so I figured I could probably handle being a lawyer. You could also be a banker, but I'm glad you got a third option there. I decided rather than gone to law school, and honestly, I could have gotten into Harvard or any place I wanted since I had good grades and I did well in the LCTs. But I decided I just needed like kind of an intermission, just a break from all the striving and doing. And so I came out to a town called Santa Cruz, a little south of San Francisco, which was known as a center for people who were awakening spiritually and exploring alternative approaches to life. I had some friends from California at Princeton who told me about it. And when I went out there, I just immersed myself in this exploration. I did a lot of meditation, played a lot of inner tennis, a lot of body surfing, which can be a very mystical experience too, being in the ocean. And I started to really find something I hadn't found before. You know, I found the peace, found the connection. Like I say, I found God, if you know if I wanted to use that word, I just found something deeper inside of me, and that was so fulfilling. And I felt so much better about myself and about life and about everything that I had before that just naturally became my priority. And also just as naturally, when you're finding something that is benefiting you, it's natural to want to share it. So I started sharing it in a way all my careers have been generated by wanting to share and wanting to help people to find peace, to find happiness, find connection, find out who they are.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Wow. Now I'm curious, you started this journey more or less when you were very, very young, probably in your early 20s, late teens, early 20s. For a lot of our listeners who are already in their late 60s, maybe even early 70s, how do you think people can transform to get to this stage? Or, I mean, you had the fortunate, you know, situation to be able to do it when you were very young and continue throughout all these decades of life. How could somebody, let's say, our age, be able to achieve something similar? Is that possible? And what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Great question, Norm. Well, I'd say one plus for people our age is I know some people are still driving hard in their 70s, but I think the vast majority of our classmates and contemporaries are slowing down. You know, a lot of people have retired or semi-retired, and they have more time on their hands. Yeah. And so when you have time on your hands, you get to look at, you know, what are my priorities? What's the best use of this time I suddenly have? And maybe someone for 45-50 years has been mostly focused on the demanding job, you know, marriage, raising kids, dealing with all the stuff. And then finally, I did all that. You know, I have financial security, I have free time. How do I want to use it? And I would suggest starting some kind of practice of going inside. Of course, meditation is one. There's a lot of moving meditations for people who don't like to sit still, like yoga or qigang, tai chi, that kind of stuff. And for someone who's new, they might benefit from taking a class or finding a teacher or mentor who's a little further along in the process and guide them, you know, especially for someone who this is really a whole new approach to life. It probably helps to have a guide or at least a supportive community, you know, you know, find some kind of class or gathering to be part of.

unknown 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Do you think it's necessary for someone at this age to have a yearning to do something like this, or is it a natural progression of uh spiritual development, so to speak? Does everybody go through this process, or is it somebody who feels that they're just being called to this? Like you were called when you were much younger. Is it something that's necessary?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

That's a really good question, Naraman. I think ultimately you have to, you know, have a desire. Use the word hearing, which I guess would be called a strong desire. Yeah, I mean, for many people, this doesn't arise. It's not what they've been oriented to. It doesn't even enter as a possibility. But for some people, and I think it's just by grace, just a gift that that desire rose for me when I was in college, it's a great gift to have that desire to know yourself, your desire to find peace. And in a way, it just seems kind of natural and logical that you know, if you've lived a life focused on the outer game, and you've basically won the outer game. And you don't know how much time you have left, you know. Maybe it's just a very short time. Maybe some of us at our age will live 20, 30 years, but nothing is guaranteed. And one way to look at it is when the body dies, the outer game is over, and what's left is the inner game. And so it makes sense. I mean, one thing that's kind of in the mass consciousness is it's good to be at peace when you die. I mean, that's a pretty common idea when you say Yeah, for sure. So that's inner game. So, so, like, for example, if someone is carrying around a lot of judgment of themselves or carrying anger at people they feel to think things wrong with them, I would strongly advise they make it a high priority to resolve that to find peace. And you know, if they haven't been doing that kind of work, it's probably good to have some kind of guide or coach or or therapist to help with that.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, to resolve some psychological challenges and difficulties or issues before death is so crucial, so very important, to feel at peace and relaxed with how you lived your life and how you're going to die. That's for sure. But you know what I find interesting, I know that I read, and you mentioned as well that you had a nonprofit corporation of helping inner city kids with tennis and with wellness programs and things like that. But you also mentioned that you use tennis as a means to get to this inside out. So I'm wondering, business people or people in the corporate world, do you think they can do the same thing with their businesses and with the corporate life as you did with tennis? Is that a possibility at all? Or is it just a non-starter? It just can't be done because it's too challenging.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

No, it's certainly a possibility. Like, you know, the same guy, Tim Galway, who wrote the inner game of tennis, also wrote another book called The Inner Game of Work, you know, applying the same principles work. I think one advantage of a couple of advantages of tennis is one, it's it's a physical activity. And I think one thing all of us really need to do is get out of our minds and you know connect with our bodies. You know, those of us who went to places like Princeton tend to be very intellectual and Jewish culture is very mental. Sure. The fact that tennis is is physical, I think, is a plus. Whereas, you know, working in a in a corporate office is not too very physical, except walking down the hall to the next meeting, I guess. So the physical aspect helps. Another thing that's great in tennis is you get immediate feedback. Like, say I learn a new concept like being fully in the present with the ball. And I apply that in a concrete way, say, by watching the seams of the ball spin to contact, I see immediately results. The ball's in or the ball's out. Right. Win the point or lose the point. I win the match or I lose the match. And immediate feedback, immediate clear feedback is highly conducive to accelerated learning. Whereas even a situation where you're not necessarily getting that immediate clear feedback, the learning may be slower. One thing that's totally transferable, I'll mention this will be something concrete. So one thing about the game of tennis is there's a rhythm, you play a point, and after every single point, you have maybe 20, 30 seconds between points before the next point.

unknown 15:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

And then you also have a minute or two after every second game. So what I learned how to do, which one of the key things I learned and taught in tennis, is use the time between points. You say to do a mini reset, just let go of any residue, like maybe the last point I missed an easy shot, I'm mad at myself. So yeah, I got 20 seconds to let go of that. So by the time the next point starts, I'm just clear and present. I'm not carrying with me the feeling of God, how could I miss the last shot? Right. And so another way to look at it is you have a period of dynamic doing action during the point, and then try to drop back into being, just being still being present. And so what I found from doing that in tennis is two things rule. When I use the breaks between points to really drop into the present with myself, one, I enjoyed the points a lot more, two, I played a lot better. So it's not a trade-off between high performance and being relaxed and present. You know, the more fully I'm present, the better I play. And I think that's true in an interactional setting, like in a conversation with someone, you know, the more I'm present, deeply listening, then my responses are going to be better. And I'm also going to enjoy the time more. So anyway, going back to the ship, taking the principles off the court into the corporate office, when people come to me, and I do have a lot of clients who come from the corporate world, especially from Silicon Valley, which is only about five hours away from Mount Shasta. Usually my number one coaching is take more bricks and really use the brakes to let go of stress, to decompress, to come into the presence. I think a lot of people in the work setting, the brakes are no longer an integral part of the structure. In tennis, you don't have to choose to take bricks. The brakes are woven into the structure of the of the game. Right. You do have to choose to use the brakes consciously and wisely. But in in most office settings, and really most situations in life, you have to choose to take a break, you have to choose to stop. But once someone starts doing that, and you can do it a lot of ways. You can set an hourly alarm on your clock, you can just structure your schedule so you have five minutes between meetings. One great teaching from a Vietnamese master named TikTad Han was use your cell phone as a dharma bell, which means every time your cell phone makes any noise, stop, take three mindful breaths, and resume the activity. So I think someone who has a desire to use the corporate office or whatever kind of office they're working in, whatever kind of job they're doing, as an opportunity to develop their inner game, can do that. And I think certainly taking the breaks, you know, having a lot of short breaks and maybe at least one longer break during the day to really decompress and really drop in. I think people will see that there won't be as burnout and exhaust at the end of the day. And I think they'll see it may be a little hard to measure, not as immediately measurable as an tennis, but I think they'll see the performance, even if it was good before, will be even better, more sustainable.

unknown 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Because they won't get burnt out.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

It'd be interesting to have therapists in the corporate setting talk about this to encourage those people who are type A behaviors, who are just constantly on the go to lead a much more holistic life in the now, and being able to see that taking a break and understanding to live inside out rather than outside in is probably a better and less stressful way of life. That's for sure. That's for sure. Now I'm interested in the fact that the screen right behind you, of course, is Mount Shasta. And so obviously, you do a huge amount of outdoor type work. So leading a life outdoors or being out in the wilderness or out in nature, things like that, how does that affect one's inner being? Is it something that you have to work on?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Well, the simplest way I would say it, Norm, is everything and everyone we interact with reflects or evokes different aspects of ourself. Yeah. And I think in general, most of the time, interactions with other human beings tend to evoke our ego or conditioned self, since most people are identified as their ego, you know, as their conditioning. And whereas when you go in nature, the trees don't have any ego, the mountain doesn't have an ego, the stream doesn't have an ego, the sky doesn't have an ego. So basically, nature reflects our natural self. And I think the key to really optimizing time in nature is to really have an intention to be in the present and to shift attention out of our minds into just being present in our bodies with what's around us. And that's easy to say, but you know, for someone who has a lifetime habit of mostly living in their minds, which is our whole culture, there's an addiction to thinking. It takes intention and practice. But I would see, you know, going out in nature is almost like if you're going for a walk, just a moving meditation. You know, just what makes it a meditation is your intention to be in the present and keeping bringing your attention back to the present when you start to draft it. And I think people will find, you know, the deeper they're the more deeply they're present in nature, the more rewarding it'll be. So that'll be kind of a virtuous circle. You know, they feel better, so they do it more, they feel even better, they do it more.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah, so interesting. I mean, of course, I live in New York City here. In Brooklyn, and virtually there's no trees here. I mean, of course, there's some parks. There's Central Park, of course, and there's Prospect Park. So, you know, when I do exercise quite a bit, but whenever I'm exercising along Ocean Parkway, which is a major thoroughfare in Brooklyn leading down to Coney Island, it's not the same as if I'm going jogging in Central Park or Prospect Park. It's very, very interesting how your mood changes when there's no cars around you and it's just a bunch of trees and nature. It's just much, much more profound, much more interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah, and of course, there's different levels of nature. You know, Central Park is one depth of nature and gone out into the wilderness. It's totally a whole deep version.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Totally, totally different.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

You know, fortunately, we've been able to save a good bit of wilderness still in the United States. And you know, wherever everybody lives, there's a pretty good chance they could be out in the wilderness with at least a two or three hour drive, if not less than that. Sure. And you don't have to camp out. I mean, at our age, it's pretty hard to get comfortable in a tent. So I won't do it anymore. I'll tell you that. It doesn't have to be 24-7, but you know, just find a nice Airbnb that's close to a wilderness setting and spend a weekend, a long weekend, or a week there, go for some hikes, sit by some streams, hug some trees, and just really make it all about being present in nature.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

So beautiful, so beautiful. So tell me about I know that you take people up, you know, this to the sacred sites in Mount Shasta. What tell me explain a little bit about that journey? What are the people like? What are they looking for? How do they experience the sacred sites? What is that all about? And is that just for people who already have reached a stage where they're yearning for something more spiritual, or is it for pretty much for everybody?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Okay, well, you put a lot on the table. I'll do my best to uh when people come on their own, it's definitely people who are drawn to the energy here.

unknown 24:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

I mean, probably the most universal way I would describe Mount Shasta, it's a field of pure energy. The word Shasta comes from a Russian word, Shastia, which means pure happiness. Oh so there's just energy, and energy is really, you know, it's it's what physicists study, you know, it's what Einsteiner talked about. And so you you know, there's just an energy or a presence here, and so people from all over the world feel called to it. And the people who come here who don't really feel the yearning, they're usually coming to a friend, a spouse, a family member who felt that yearning and invited them to come along. And they're either coming because they love being in nature, which is great, or they are fond of the person who invited them. They want to spend time with them. And what I find is almost universally that's the second category of people who didn't feel the yearning did a lot more than they thought. Like a very typical thing is it's the husband and wife. You know, 90% of the time it's the wife who's on the spiritual journey, who wanted to come to Shasta, and the husband is just coming along either because he wants to be with his wife, or he's afraid of letting his wife be alone with the mountain guide. Okay. And I'm almost always the husband really finds something. And one thing I've learned to do is speaking always speaking a language that's relatable to the person I'm with. And so, you know, when I'm with a husband who's maybe a corporate executive and has done no meditation or therapy or inner exploration, it's been all about getting things done, being successful. You know, I just speak in language that's relatable to that. Sometimes I might use examples of metaphors from sports. And I'm a huge sports fan, so that comes natural to me. And because I did start and run an organization, I can speak about some of the challenges of dealing with personnel issues or financial issues, dealing with the board, that kind of stuff. And you know, I always just try to make it relatable and help them to see the value in terms of their own perceived intentions.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

And when they leave the trip, you know, when it's finished, is there a discernible difference in how they feel or what they want to continue to do, or anything of that sort? What happens after the experience?

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Okay. Well, I think we're talking about two things. One change that happens from the beginning of the experience to the end, and two, how sustainable it is when they go home. And and so I say the experience itself. A lot of people, and especially if you want to talk, especially about the people who haven't been on a conscious spiritual journey, been very outer game focused, I'd say they might feel more peaceful, more relaxed, more aware, more present, maybe happier, those kind of things. And I always do my very best at the end of the journey to help people to I think you could say build a bridge between their experience on Mount Shots and their life back home. Like, for example, I asked some questions like, what do you feel like you're taking home with you from this experience? Right. You feel more peaceful, more relaxed, than I felt for a long time. And my next question would be when you go home, what specifically can you do to nurture and sustain that and keep that alive? Help people to leave, you know, not just feeling good, but with some clarity on how to keep that going when they get home.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Wow. Yeah, yeah. What's so interesting about our generation? I mean, a lot of us did grow up with being physically active and running marathons and all sorts of sports and things like that. But there's a huge segment of our generation that are sedentary and have either physical ailments or medical problems that prevent them from doing something like Mount Shasta. So, for that group of people who are not experienced with being outdoors so often or haven't gone on nature hikes so much, what would you say would be the progression of what you would recommend to get people to start enjoying the outdoors, to start seeking some sort of spiritual fulfillment as they get into their 70s and even older into their 80s? What would a few things would you would suggest for them?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Great question. Well, I think, you know, just starting with places that are easy to get to. And if you know someone has been pretty sedentary, it doesn't have to be a long or vigorous hike. As a matter of fact, on my journey, it's we we keep the hikes really short. I like to spend time at the place is meditating and dialoguing, doing rituals. But you know, if someone's going on their own, just to go to whatever kind of natural environment they're most drawn to, whether it's the ocean, desert, mountains, and I guess convenience is a factor too. But you know, different people resonate with different kinds of environments. Contemplation or meditation, quiet time, and do at least a little bit of hiking to kind of ground the energy or walking. But maybe the intention is the important thing, that they're not going just to get some exercise, or they're gone to really connect with nature and to really go deeper in themselves.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Well, some some people it's just like, where do I start? What do I need to do? How do I need to do this? And it's uh sometimes sometimes it's a very foreign thing to connect with nature for many people, especially people who are in the city all the time. They just don't see the connection between nature and their spirituality and things like that. So it's tough.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah, it might be for some people if they have spent a lifetime in the cities without much time in nature that they might feel a little bit uncomfortable or even scared being in nature. But I think it's possible to move through that. I mean, maybe someone like that they can go with a friend or family member or spouse who's more comfortable can really help them to be more at ease. Yeah, yeah. And you know, of course, nature is not the only nature has been and progressively more so a really important part of my life. I feel like I really ground in nature. Like if I just had somebody happen, say, the computer is causing me some problems, and I get a little bit bent out of shape, my first instinct will be go outside.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

And even, you know, going to my small town neighborhood here in Mount Shasta, and I can see the mountain. Maybe I hug a tree, I look at the sun, listen to the birds. Just kind of takes my consciousness away from just being locked into shit. What am I gonna do about my computer? To ah, more spaciousness.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

I wish I had more of your attitude, Andy. It would be like, oh God, this is great. If I were to hug a tree in Brooklyn, right, people would think I need to be locked up somewhere, maybe. Different cultures, different societies, different places. It's all very unique situations. In any case, it'd be fun to do. One of the things that I know that you mentioned in your little booklet was about being authentic. Now, is this part and parcel of the same thing, living inside out and being authentic, or is there something beyond inside out that you were talking about?

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Well, I think it's kind of the natural expression of the inside out approach to life, is more authenticity. You know, I would just say from my 70 or so years of observation that most people, including me, for much of my life, are basically living from their conditioning. You know, all of us develop habits of self-protection, ways to fit in, ways to avoid conflict, ways to get what we want. Like maybe we're a pleaser person, which was my thing. Maybe uh another person might be like arrogant, don't give a shit, kind of personality. But you know, we kind of adopt those strategies as a way to navigate through the challenges of life. And a lot of people get so locked into those strategies that they identify with them, you know, they think that's who they are. Yeah. And so the more someone goes inside and gets a deeper experience of who I am, just being with myself in the present and begins to ground in that, to stabilize in that, then naturally that'll express in interactions and choices in how we live.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Right. Yeah. When we were younger, much younger, the common phrase is I've got to go find myself. You know, people graduated from college and went overseas to Europe for a year or two years. I went actually for five years away. I still didn't find myself. Is this a process of finding yourself, the real Norman or the real Andy, or is it a slightly different process of becoming much more in tune with, you know, your spiritual essence, who you really are inside, not being a mortgage banker, not being a lawyer or a doctor. It's who you really, why you're here on this earth. Is that part of being authentic?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

I'd say definitely, Norm. I mean, to me, the most important question we all have an opportunity to answer in this life is who am I? Since that question, if you really can answer that question, not just intellectually, but in your heart and really, you know, in your belly and your whole body. The more you really know know that, it frees you from plain out the conditioning and the false self. So I I would say that that's it's you know, to me, that's the most important thing. And I I'm not the first person to think that I believe Socrates used to say, know yourself or something like that. And Jesus and Buddha and all the great teachers of all the religions taught that that you know, Jesus said, you know, seek your first the kingdom of heaven. I mean, that's old-fashioned language. If you want to make it in modern language, you know, make the inner game your priority, make knowing who you are the priority. So I think you know the key is to really if someone has an interest in this, and I think deep down everybody potentially has an interest, whether or not it's conscious, to really, you know, make it a priority and spend time. Like just just like if you had a friend and you told the friend, you know, our friendship's a big priority for me, but you never had time to be with a friend, obviously you're lying. Friendship is not a priority for you. And so if your relationship with yourself, which is what we're talking about, is a priority, you invest time. And you know, like we were saying earlier, a lot of people in our age group have more time on their hands, and so maybe invest some time in being with yourself deeply. And if you can be with yourself in nature, just the reflection and the energy of nature accelerates the process of finding out who you are.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Yeah, that's such an important thing in everybody's life. One of the last few questions that I have for you, Andy, is that as people in their 60s start thinking about retirement and they start thinking about what they've lost, not that necessarily they've lost their purpose, but they're leaving what has made their life so significant for so many years. How would you suggest that they try to find that way of the new purpose in life, the new reality of maybe I should involve, spend more time with myself, maybe I should try to be more authentic, maybe I should try to live inside out. How would you suggest that they start that process?

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Well, I think a good place to start is taking some time to really introspect, to look inside and ask, what am I passionate about? I mean, what would make my life most meaningful? And you know, we're in a society, like we said, is more outside in, and maybe a lot of people would come up with outer things. In India, it's different. You know, in India the tradition is once a man turns 60, he devotes himself to the inner journey. It's it's a different culture. You know, in America that's not really part of our culture, but I think to really take the time to look at what I really care about, what would be the richest way I can spend what remains to me of the time on the earth? What would really bring me happiness?

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

What I really fully enjoy, and just to look at that. You know, we haven't really talked that much about the whole service or contribution aspect, but I would say that when people pursue the inner journey, naturally they have a desire to help others to find peace. And I'd also say for everybody out there, really look at what are you passionate about? What area of human life do you want to make a difference? Maybe for some people it's the environment, maybe for some people it's pets or children or all kinds of things, and to really look at it if I really care about this, how can I make a contribution? You know, maybe it's getting involved.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

And for some people, it's taking care of really seriously taking care of their family and their loved ones as well. Even something as simple as that can be life-affirming and fulfilling as well. It's a purpose that you're put here on this earth to really enrich the lives of other people, and that's something that could be a calling as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

I think one thing I would say, Norm, kind of a key integrative point is follow your heart.

unknown 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Just to really feel in your heart, you know, what do I really care about? What would really bring me joy? And to really follow your heart, not your mind or your concepts or people's advice.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

A little bit of introspection, a little bit of maybe journaling or gratitude journaling or things like that would be extremely helpful, especially for anybody who's on the path towards searching of what they really want to be or who they want to be afterwards. So wow. I gotta thank Andrew or Andy, thank you so much. This has been enlightening, I'm sure, for so many people out there. It'll be just as enlightening as it was for me, I'm sure it'll be for them as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Yeah, there's actually one thing that popped in that is really huge in my life that I don't think I even mentioned, which was gratitude. You know, I mean, one way to look at it is you know, there's what is, what's happening, and we can relate to what is in really ultimately three different ways, which I would say negative, neutral, and positive. Negative is resisting what is, complaining, bitching, and moaning, being unhappy because of some circumstance or what some person is doing. That's a losing strategy. Neutral is more like the Buddhist strategy, it's tutor paths, it's all this empty phenomena. That's a winning strategy. It's not really my predominant strategy, but I honor that can be definitely a winning strategy. There's a reason Buddhism is still around and it's prevalent all over the earth. And it's a positive strategy that this is a gift. You know, the present to me is such a huge word in the English language since it means now and gift. So you could say every moment I'll be given this gift. And if I can receive it gratefully, I enjoy it. It opens my heart. And to me, that's the simple as practice. There was a great Catholic mystic, I think the 13th century named Meister Eckhart. And one of the things he said was, gratitude is the only prayer you need. I think you need to expand that even beyond that and say, Gratitude is all you need. That if you're if you're grateful for what is, you're at peace and you're happy. One thing to leave people with is just do your best to be grateful for this breath, be grateful for everything else being given. And when hard stuff happens, do your best is to be grateful for the opportunity for learning and growth.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your ideas and your journey. I know a lot of our listeners are walking away, not just inspired, but with real, practical ways to start living a more joyful, present, and authentic life. And to all of you listening, if something stirred in you today, I encourage you to take that first small step. Maybe it's a walk in nature, maybe it's a quiet moment before your day begins, or maybe it's simply paying attention to what your heart is whispering. If you want to learn more about Andrew's work, his retreats, or his beautiful philosophy of living from the inside out, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Until next time, stay curious, stay courageous, and as always, against the norm.